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Sigmetnow

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Re: Tesla glory/failure
« Reply #1350 on: February 09, 2019, 01:46:27 PM »
Do companies reduce their prices for reasons other than demand?  You betcha!  For example: when they are about to come out with a new version of their product, with better features.  You don’t want recent customers to feel they got a bad deal, when the product is improved shortly after their purchase (often with a price increase).

Demand for Teslas can soften for many different reasons.  But demand that lowers from perhaps three times what the company can produce, to twice what they can produce, is not a crisis.  Particularly when other demand levers (leasing, FSD, $35k model) are in the works.

Will Lowering Your Prices Increase Profits?
Quote
If you have an elastic demand curve:
      When you raise prices slightly, volume goes down substantially.
      When you lower prices a slightly, volume goes up substantially.
Conversely, if your volume stays roughly the same when you increase your prices, you have an inelastic demand curve. This can be very powerful, and it typically results from having a premium brand, solid distribution, few competitors or simply being under-priced.
http://www.marketingmo.com/strategic-planning/will-lowering-your-prices-increase-profits/
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Sigmetnow

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Re: Tesla glory/failure
« Reply #1351 on: February 09, 2019, 02:22:54 PM »
Rate of charge is controlled by the charger (current and temperature constraints) as well as the car (battery management software). 

Tesla Model 3 reaches new record charge rate of 126 kW – faster on CCS than Superchargers
Quote
The first European production Tesla Model 3 stopped at a 175 kW CCS charging station and recorded a new charge rate record for the electric vehicle: 126 kW – 5 kW higher than on than on Tesla’s own Superchargers.
https://electrek.co/2019/02/08/tesla-model-3-new-record-charge-rate-125-kw-ccs/

- From the comments, 126 kW is about four times what a Bolt owner has ever seen using CCS charging. 
- Tesla Supercharger version 3.0 coming soon!
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Sigmetnow

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Re: Tesla glory/failure
« Reply #1352 on: February 09, 2019, 03:47:39 PM »
Quote
Elon Musk (@elonmusk) 2/9/19, 8:50 AM
Just left Zeebrugge, now Tilburg, then Tesla HQ in Amsterdam & Oslo tonight to review service in Norway. Exciting to see thousands of Model 3’s on their way to owners in Europe!
https://twitter.com/elonmusk/status/1094232094912512000

Tesla is pumping out every car it can to Europe and China.  From the Q4 financial call:
Quote
Musk:  Well, like I said, we're thinking about demand almost 0 right now. It's really getting the product there in time and not having a ton of cars on the water and in a quarter and then for China getting cars there before there's a potential rise in tariffs.

China is the world’s largest car market. Thinking little ol’ Tesla can fulfill that pent-up demand in just a quarter or two is silly. ;)

Model 3 will start production in China later this year, and demand there unquestionably exists:
Quote
In Q4, we delivered 63,359 Model 3 vehicles to customers in North America. In January 2019, we started to produce Model 3 vehicles for Europe and China, and the car is now fully certified for sale in these markets. The market opportunity for Model 3 in Europe and China exceeds North America based on the most recent sales of mid-sized premium sedans. Model 3 was designed from the outset for a global market, and shares more than 98% of its parts in common across its regional variants
Market bar chart below.
Source: Tesla Fourth Quarter & Full Year 2018 Update

I’m thinking free Autopilot could be a sign that FSD is coming soon, as I described above — or, it could be a simple goodwill gesture to Tesla’s new host country.  I’m not terribly familiar with the cultural norms in that respect, but it makes sense even in purely economic terms, given all the financial assistance China has already given: first wholly owned manufacturing facility in China, sole bid on the giga 3 land, accelerated factory build over the holidays, and local low interest loans — just for starters.  China loves Tesla; there’s many big reasons for Tesla to love China back!

Edit: the Chinese characters in the second image below say, “Come to China to build.”
« Last Edit: February 09, 2019, 05:43:31 PM by Sigmetnow »
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Sigmetnow

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Re: Tesla glory/failure
« Reply #1353 on: February 10, 2019, 04:59:17 PM »
Would you buy a new EV from this company?

Jaguar Land Rover takes $4.4B hit, writes down value of cars, plants
Quote
Jaguar Land Rover has posted a 3.4 billion pound ($4.4 billion) quarterly loss after it took a big write-down in the value of its cars and plants.

It is the third straight quarterly loss for the British automaker, which has been hit hard by U.S.-China trade tensions, low demand for diesel cars in Europe and Brexit worries. Last month JLR said it would cut about 10 percent of its 42,500-person workforce, mostly in its home market. ...
https://europe.autonews.com/automakers/jaguar-land-rover-takes-44b-hit-writes-down-value-cars-plants

———
This (from 2016) will give you an idea of different OEM’s ICE assets soon to need writing off:
http://tesla.dauger.com/disrupts/different.html#incumbentsshackles
« Last Edit: February 10, 2019, 05:04:19 PM by Sigmetnow »
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oren

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Re: Tesla glory/failure
« Reply #1354 on: February 10, 2019, 06:15:37 PM »
Recognizing a hit now and switching to EVs actually increases their chances for survival.

Sigmetnow

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Re: Tesla glory/failure
« Reply #1355 on: February 10, 2019, 09:44:19 PM »
Recognizing a hit now and switching to EVs actually increases their chances for survival.

I agree they must switch to have any hope of surviving!  However, the burden of switching means success is definitely not guaranteed.

From the Dauger analysis:
Quote
For comparison, the Germans might produce their first 200+-mile BEV in at least 2019, equivalent to Tesla’s first such BEV in 2007 (the Roadster), so therefore the Germans are at best 12 years behind. If they could catch up, they should have done so already, and gas-car makers are financially unmotivated to make long-range BEVs because it would disrupt the assets that keeps them profitable: their gas-car cash cow.

The incumbents cannot embrace long-range BEV because it would kill their gas-engine cash cow, so they must move at most slowly, providing only short-range BEVs that do not disrupt. Tesla, with no such burden in the gas-engine vertical, has the unique opportunity to disrupt any submarket it chooses.

See next post:  Audi and Porsche now admit significant difficulties with their EV transition plans.
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Sigmetnow

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Re: Tesla glory/failure
« Reply #1356 on: February 10, 2019, 09:52:29 PM »
California:
Quote
Marc Benton (@marc_benton) 2/10/19, 10:14 AM
1/2 - I went to a Fiat dealership yesterday to return our leased Fiat 500e. When I walked in, in the middle of the day, there was literally NO ONE there. No customers, no sales people, no service people and the front doors were open with high end Alfa Romeo cars in the showroom.
https://twitter.com/marc_benton/status/1094615483339304960
2/2 - I had to call them to get someone over so I could turn in my car. He said they are an appointment only showroom now, they let go all their sales people. All I could think was “wow, Tesla is disrupting the WHOLE industry...in every facet”. @Tesla @elonmusk #ElonTheDisrupter

——
Quote
Ross Gerber (@GerberKawasaki) 2/10/19, 12:11 AM
From the Germans themselves in Manager Magazine. Deep dive into the failing Audi and Porsche EV production platforms. Trying to compete with Tesla is basically impossible. $tsla
https://twitter.com/gerberkawasaki/status/1094463915667279872
Text image below.

Quote
Vladimir Grinshpun (@VGrinshpun) 2/9/19, 8:40 PM
That PPE, btw, is years behind $TSLA M3, and is scrambling to match it.
And, talking about cash burn, VW spending more than $2B to develop e-tron platform is MULTIPLES of what $TSLA spent on M3 R&D. ...
https://twitter.com/vgrinshpun/status/1094410638200324097

Tesla Model 3 cost surprised Porsche and Audi after reverse-engineering
https://electrek.co/2019/02/09/tesla-model-3-cost-surprise-porsche-audi-reverse-engineering/
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Sigmetnow

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Re: Tesla glory/failure
« Reply #1357 on: February 10, 2019, 09:55:36 PM »
300 Level 2 chargers (not superchargers) installed at the port of Zeebrugge for the planned 3,000 Teslas per week deliveries.
From the comments, "ICO invested around 2.5 million euros (3 million $) at its terminal in 300 charging stations that can program eight cars in sequence. In the long term, 1,500 are planned. The cars leave 80 percent charged to the consumer".
Quote
ICO Zeebrugge, Belgium had to install 300 superchargers as part of the weekly 3000 cars Tesla contract. Charging to 80% at arrival. - teslamotors
https://www.reddit.com/r/teslamotors/comments/ap4zut/ico_zeebrugge_belgium_had_to_install_300/?st=JRZ4LZJ1&sh=b5188e84
Photo below.

How long until most parking lots look like this? ;)

——-
Tesla Model 3 = #1 Best Selling Electric Car in World, 7% of Global EV Market in 2018
https://cleantechnica.com/2019/02/09/tesla-model-3-1-best-selling-electric-car-in-world-7-of-global-ev-market/
List below.
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Sigmetnow

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Re: Tesla glory/failure
« Reply #1358 on: February 10, 2019, 10:03:34 PM »
A year ago, Jim Chanos was the great bear on Tesla, repeatedly predicting its failure, and was quoted everywhere. Now…?

Where In The World Is Jim Chanos?
Quote
In the case of Tesla, clearly, the company needed a good bit of financing for a few years to get its massive manufacturing and operations up to a significant scale and to get the Model 3 to market in high volume. With a bit of bad luck (or good luck in the case of Chanos), Tesla could have run out of money before getting to a high production level and could have then collapsed. If stumbling, even a bit of a nudge from an influential player could have forced the collapse. However, what basically happened is Tesla achieved what it set out to achieve, started mass producing the Model 3, started making profits, and got back to a healthy, strong running pace — far beyond the stumbles. That wasn’t good for Chanos’s proclamations that Tesla was approaching a flaming death. ...
https://cleantechnica.com/2019/02/10/where-in-the-world-is-jim-chanos-tesla-pravduh-king/

——
The SEC is taking shortsellers to court who have lied about companies to improve the short position.  Tesla shorts next?
Quote
Bonnie Norman (@bonnienorman) 2/9/19, 10:58 PM
"After establishing his short position, the complaint (SEC) charges that Lemelson made a series of false statements to shake investor confidence in Ligand, lower its stock price, and increase the value of his position."
https://twitter.com/bonnienorman/status/1094445436096589824

Quote
Steve Jobs (@tesla_truth) 2/8/19, 8:35 AM
“The SEC’s complaint, filed in federal court in Massachusetts, alleges that Lemelson used written reports, interviews, and social media to spread untrue claims, including that Ligand was “teetering on the brink of bankruptcy”

WELL GEE WOULD YA LOOK AT THAT, THATS ILLEGAL, HUH?
https://twitter.com/tesla_truth/status/1093865790288289794
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magnamentis

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Re: Tesla glory/failure
« Reply #1359 on: February 10, 2019, 11:12:09 PM »
considering that cars of that size are mostly occupied by 1-2 people and circulate with an empty trunk i find this a good idea, probably 1 5-Liter Canister can provide sufficient juice to reach the next charger and/or home base.

as long as the generator is light enough i see no huge disadvantage to load one on longer trips to be on the safe side or to deal with eventually occupied charging stations and the according waiting times etc. etc. etc.

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oren

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Re: Tesla glory/failure
« Reply #1360 on: February 11, 2019, 02:23:10 AM »
Quote
For comparison, the Germans might produce their first 200+-mile BEV in at least 2019, equivalent to Tesla’s first such BEV in 2007 (the Roadster), so therefore the Germans are at best 12 years behind.
I disagree with this. The Germans are planning for 2019/20 cars that are in the category of Models S and X (though not identical), and are about 7-8 years behind. Battery tech is nowadays much advanced, which I think generally puts them about 5 years behind, not needing to be the trailblazers and to invent everything from scratch. But that is still way behind, and they are stupidly dragging their feet instead of racing ahead.
« Last Edit: February 11, 2019, 03:35:35 PM by oren »

Sigmetnow

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Re: Tesla glory/failure
« Reply #1361 on: February 11, 2019, 02:37:32 PM »
The author is German auto engineer Alex Voigt.  Feb 10, 2019.

To All German Automakers: Believe Me, You Are Still Sleeping!
Quote
As a German engineer, I am today more concerned than ever about the ability of our auto industry to survive and prosper.

You may remember having read the very same sentence last year. I know, I sound like a broken record, but it actually is on repeat, not broken. Today we are indeed on the record, because what we are experiencing these days is true history and will be remembered and talked about in the future. Mark this day in your calendar, mark it in your diary, because this day is the beginning of an ending and the start of a beginning.


Today, while I write this sentence, the Model 3 from Tesla, an affordable fully electric vehicle that works in the ordinary life of a human, was delivered in the thousands to waiting customers in Europe. I am not talking about just a few hundred per country or a few thousand, but a bigger picture — future annual deliveries in the hundreds of thousands in Europe alone. That has never happened before, and your kids or their kids will ask you when you are old, ugly, and everything hurts how it felt, so it’s my advice that you better remember it.

Some of the European customers have been waiting for years, some just ordered a month ago. Thousands of people who drive a German car today are waiting impatiently for their first American car (the first American car they’ve ever bought in their life). It is both a first American car and a first electric car for most of them, and both of those qualities separately have previously been very convincing reasons to make sure you do not order. Today, everything is different, the world has changed.

I live in Germany in a town of one of the 4 largest German premium automakers and can happily testify that after my article was published a few months ago, people did not burn my house down, I still have my job, and I still have my citizenship. The last time I left the country, at least, my passport was still valid. I am still a German — for now.

What I wrote in September and what I write today is intended to help accelerate the transformation of the German auto industry into a sustainable future to prosper for the next century. In that respect, I believe simply that I have a duty as a German to ring the bell once again and to help wake the German auto industry up.

I hear quite often that I am not fair to all of those popular and famous global corporations that were repeatedly declared dead decades ago but always came back to succeed and be on top in the end. They have the people, they have the facilities, they have plenty of resources, and if they really want, they will win. They did in the past what they were required to do. They have not always been the first ones, but they have been ahead of the pack in the end.

All of those claims are correct, but one important item is always overlooked here. We are not talking about cars with internal combustion engines (ICE) anymore. These are electric vehicles, and in an electric vehicle world, everything is different. Nothing from the drivetrain or engine is the same. Nothing from the software is the same. And if you look at the interior, the additional space allows you to design it completely new without the limits you had before. It feels different driving, behaving, and listening to an EV. It does not talk like a duck. It does not walk like a duck. It is no duck!

This is very important to comprehend, because to build an electric vehicle, if you have ICE tools, ICE experience, and ICE people, it is very hard. It is harder than most believe because it looks so similar from the outside — despite so much difference inside. We have seen the results from German automakers building EVs. Some of them are actually ICE vehicles with a battery and electric powertrain instead. Others are quite ugly. Some are nice to look at but fall behind in all specifications Tesla has proven possible today.

What is the status of German electric vehicles (BEVs) today?
Some extracted facts out of a long list:
   •   BMW sold 34,829 BEVs globally in 2018 (14% of Tesla and shrinking).
   •   VW sold around  33,000 BEVs in 2018 (13% of Tesla).
   •   Audi sold almost no BEVs in 2018.
   •   Mercedes-Benz sold no BEVs in 2018.
   •   Porsche sold no BEVs in 2018.
   •   BMW sales did grow 1.8% overall, but its BEV sales decreased.
   •   VW grew 0.2%, with about 0.5% of its total vehicles being BEVs.
   •   Audi shrank (3.5%), with no BEV sales.
   •   Daimler grow 2.4%, just a small number of Smart BEVs produced and sold.
This is the true and sad reality we Germans are facing today. This is the reality we are living in today. This is not acceptable. And this is just sad.


To all of those now explaining that growth rate for a still small company like Tesla is a perception trick compared to growth rate of a large producer, I would respond that comparing just the growth rate of all the automakers’ BEVs makes Tesla look even better and them worse, even if you add PHEVs and hybrids. You also could use units instead of the percent and it does not change the picture.

Besides this really sad information, all of those incumbent automakers try to influence the public opinion with what they call “electrified vehicles,” which are in fact cars with combustion engines and carbon emissions. They are able to drive a few miles on electricity and then drive on gas or diesel.


Those cars should not be called electrified vehicles at all because they have combustion engines, drive with gas or diesel, and pollute the air we are all breathing. They are very similar to every other ICE car. Those cars should not appear in electric vehicle statistics, in my opinion, because they are not electric vehicles as long as emissions are exhausted.

German automakers release blended sales numbers as if hybrids are comparable to the vehicles Tesla sells, lumping them all together under the “electrified” label and often declining to give transparency to consumers because they know they won’t look good.

BMW, with shrinking fully electric vehicle sales, claims victory in global electrified sales. VW claims 60% growth but does not give numbers for pure electrics. Audi does not give any numbers at all for electric vehicles or electrified vehicles. All of them know exactly why they don’t share more specific numbers. If they told us the truth, it would not be received well. It would be ugly. They essentially cheat consumers again with blended data as they did before with dieselgate. They did not hesitate one second to deceive customers again. ...
Much more in the article:  https://cleantechnica.com/2019/02/10/to-all-german-automakers-believe-me-you-are-still-sleeping/
« Last Edit: February 11, 2019, 02:58:00 PM by Sigmetnow »
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Zythryn

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Re: Tesla glory/failure
« Reply #1362 on: February 11, 2019, 04:31:29 PM »
Some companies a realizing that the upcoming band payments are easily handled with Tesla’s current cash flow.

https://electrek.co/2019/02/11/tesla-tsla-stock-jumps-wall-street-profit-model-3/

oren

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Re: Tesla glory/failure
« Reply #1363 on: February 11, 2019, 04:53:40 PM »
Quote
To All German Automakers: Believe Me, You Are Still Sleeping!
Well written.

Sigmetnow

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Re: Tesla glory/failure
« Reply #1364 on: February 11, 2019, 05:53:13 PM »
Click to embiggen.
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rboyd

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Re: Tesla glory/failure
« Reply #1365 on: February 11, 2019, 10:09:39 PM »
What about the Chinese manufacturers, where more than half the EVs and PHEVs are now manufactured? The next coming Chinese wave for orange-top to complain about.

magnamentis

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Re: Tesla glory/failure
« Reply #1366 on: February 11, 2019, 10:13:50 PM »
when i was a little kid american cars were way way ahead of european cars, nice, big, automatic, electric windows etc. etc. and it was THE thing to have either an american car or at least a british noble brand or PERHAPS kind of the biggest mercedes.

the same will happen again. i say this without being in disagreement or contradict that current state but the moment some of the german and other european automakers will start in ernest, others will lose significant market shares and a few years later will be overtaken on their home ground.

i hope i remember this post in a few years and link it from time to time.

furhter the major german automakers have other standards they wanted to reach before releasing a EV in big numbers to the average customer.

some of those goals they reached like for example smoothest ever intreplay of breakes and recuperation etc which cannot be seen in any manual but has to be "FELT" and experienced and other goals they did not fully achieve because some tech like battery tech developed slower than they expected which had an impact on weight and component goals as well as the waiting in this aspect was unnecessary and/or not fully successful (2-3 years)

if you drive and look at an iPace that is not from an abosulte tech giant jaguar when compared to bmw, audi and MB, it's already at least on par with tesla but it's over all the better car which you only can tell if you drive all of them which i mostly did.

i can say that i drove almost any of the current EV top models and the difference in parts is like driving a cheap chevy or a beatle as compared to one of the german top lines from any brand.

i'm talking about sounds, (not engine LOL) the entire feel of craftmanship that emits from some cars by some top brands and compare them to most american italian or french brands.

i only can recommend to drive and not only compare manuals and specs. the difference in finish, quality and ultimately innovation have been the reason why german cars are a synonym for top quality (diesel gate is a legal issue not a technological one, they are capable to abide by the law but decided not to)

and so on, you'll see, we gonna talk in 5-10 years from now.

and no, i'm not german and i don't even drive a german car after i sold my phaeton i stick to japanese hybrids and motorcycles for the time being, just to prevent any suspicion of bias ;)

 
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Sigmetnow

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Re: Tesla glory/failure
« Reply #1367 on: February 12, 2019, 12:57:17 AM »
What about the Chinese manufacturers, where more than half the EVs and PHEVs are now manufactured? The next coming Chinese wave for orange-top to complain about.

China’s automakers are making lots of EVs, but they are generally low range or hybrids, and lesser quality than foreign automakers.  (I can’t find it at the moment, but there is a video of a Chinese EV that could barely move forward after it was stopped on a hill.)  Even traditional OEM’s like GM and Toyota make EVs for China that will not (cannot?) be sold in North America or Europe.  So I expect China EV exports to increase only slowly.  However, it is expected that competition from the new Tesla China Factory will encourage Chinese automakers to offer better and longer-range EVs.

China Is Building Too Many Electric Cars
https://insideevs.com/china-too-many-electric-cars/amp/

The cheapest Chinese electric cars are coming to the US and Europe
https://qz.com/1541380/the-cheapest-chinese-electric-cars-are-coming-to-the-us-and-europe/

Stalls, stops and breakdowns: Problems plague push for electric buses
https://www.latimes.com/local/lanow/la-me-electric-buses-20180520-story.html

Why Shares of Chinese Tesla Rival NIO Fell 17.4% in December
https://www.fool.com/investing/2019/01/07/why-shares-of-chinese-tesla-rival-nio-inc-fell-174.aspx

Tesla’s Gigafactory 3 is encouraging China’s local EV makers to be more competitive
https://www.teslarati.com/tesla-gigafactory-3-model-3-chinas-local-ev-revolution/


This article looks at dozens of automakers and their plans for China:
A Reuters analysis of 29 global automakers found that they are investing at least $300 billion in electric vehicles, with more than 45 percent of that earmarked for China.
https://graphics.reuters.com/AUTOS-INVESTMENT-ELECTRIC/010081ZB3HD/index.html


Edit, just came across this:
The vast majority of historic Chinese EV sales were low-quality, low-speed EVs produced by small, unknown, indigenous Chinese automakers in second- or third-tier cities. Most of them have been micro-EVs.

The Reality About Chinese Electric Cars Could Surprise You
Quote
Ninety-percent of EV companies will fail in the next few years. And it’s a good thing.
...
Don’t Fear Chinese EVs Invading the US. It’s the Other Way Around.

Feng An believes that safety and quality concerns will keep Chinese EVs from entering global markets. “Chinese don’t make the same quality of batteries like Japanese and Korean, but they are so much cheaper,” he said. Quality will come much later. First comes a rapid ramp-up of scale, as well as big reductions in cost.
https://insideevs.com/reality-chinese-electric-cars-surprise/
« Last Edit: February 12, 2019, 01:59:41 AM by Sigmetnow »
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Sigmetnow

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Re: Tesla glory/failure
« Reply #1368 on: February 12, 2019, 01:20:42 AM »
Quote
To All German Automakers: Believe Me, You Are Still Sleeping!
Well written.

I was particularly struck by his admission that Tesla enters the traditional German ICE car market with two major strikes against it: one, it is an EV, and two, it is American.  Which makes the overwhelming demand for the new, unseen-in-Europe Model 3 all the more remarkable:
Quote
Thousands of people who drive a German car today are waiting impatiently for their first American car (the first American car they’ve ever bought in their life). It is both a first American car and a first electric car for most of them, and both of those qualities separately have previously been very convincing reasons to make sure you do not order. Today, everything is different, the world has changed.
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rboyd

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Re: Tesla glory/failure
« Reply #1369 on: February 12, 2019, 03:07:25 AM »
Edit, just came across this:
The vast majority of historic Chinese EV sales were low-quality, low-speed EVs produced by small, unknown, indigenous Chinese automakers in second- or third-tier cities. Most of them have been micro-EVs.
https://insideevs.com/reality-chinese-electric-cars-surprise/

The next sentence is "He later clarified that by the end of 2018, the share EVs represented by microcars had dropped to about 37 percent". i.e. his analysis is not keeping up with the fast moving reality of the Chinese market. Just like people thought that Japanese cars were crap in the 1970s.

Bruce Steele

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Re: Tesla glory/failure
« Reply #1370 on: February 12, 2019, 02:19:21 PM »
I am not sure the power wall is a topic on the Tesla glory / failure page but I think it should be so here is a status update on my power wall project. I have received a confirmation notice that my order has made it through the first part of the approval process. This sets my tier level for the rebates here in the PG&E area of Calif.  My installer says there may be a bit of a waiting period but from my reading of all things Tesla waiting is to be expected. Installer says it may be several months due to power wall availability.
 We did have a power outage with a storm that dropped trees and sheared off a power pole in town last week. I fired up a generator and ran some extension cords for the freezers. No big deal but it  would be if I wasn't home. Vacations aren't really an option so I am usually around anyhow. If I happened to be away it would be a mad race to get home , something I would prefer to insure agains't. The storm last week also shut down the 101 freeway so even getting home in time might get problematic in some cases. Maybe I am rationalizing but I still think the power wall project makes sense for my farm.

 

NeilT

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Re: Tesla glory/failure
« Reply #1371 on: February 12, 2019, 03:37:05 PM »
(diesel gate is a legal issue not a technological one, they are capable to abide by the law but decided not to)

Not quite.  If you dig a LONG way through the reports, you find one very different view.  It was a statement from inside VAG that they realised, when the new Euro regulations started to bite, that they were 5  years behind their competitors on conforming with the emissions standards.  The determination was that it was not possible for VAG to catch up and be compliant without expending more money than they "wanted to spend".

I have known, for a long time, that PSA diesel engines are way ahead of their German counterparts.  Dieselgate was a problem of underinvestment at a time of critical change and financial crisis.  Instead of biting the bullet and digging deep they chose to cheat.  That is neither quality nor technology leadership.

It seems to me that they are doing something similar with EV.  Too little, too late, with a lot of marketing.  I'm sure they are relying on the fact that EU trade barriers will keep them competitive with lesser products.
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Sigmetnow

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Re: Tesla glory/failure
« Reply #1372 on: February 12, 2019, 04:22:09 PM »
Edit, just came across this:
The vast majority of historic Chinese EV sales were low-quality, low-speed EVs produced by small, unknown, indigenous Chinese automakers in second- or third-tier cities. Most of them have been micro-EVs.
https://insideevs.com/reality-chinese-electric-cars-surprise/

The next sentence is "He later clarified that by the end of 2018, the share EVs represented by microcars had dropped to about 37 percent". i.e. his analysis is not keeping up with the fast moving reality of the Chinese market. Just like people thought that Japanese cars were crap in the 1970s.

So China is now moving to making more quality EVs.  Great!  From comments I’ve read, it’s as much because of domestic customer preferences, and government intervention, as it is due to expected future competition.
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Sigmetnow

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Re: Tesla glory/failure
« Reply #1373 on: February 12, 2019, 04:27:25 PM »
Jaw, meet floor! :o This would be an excellent way to get the good ol’ boys on board with EVs.
(And perhaps why Elon feels comfortable investing in his far-out pickup truck option for Tesla. ;) )

Scoop: GM Reportedly Working On Electric Pickup Truck With Tesla Powertrain
Quote
Remember, Chevrolet raced the Bolt to market in order to be the first US automaker offering a long-range, semi-affordable electric car. It cares about going electric, maybe.

A source somewhat close to the heart of a big new development at GM has informed CleanTechnica that GM is indeed working on an electric pickup truck, and it is based around a Tesla powertrain. As in, the majority of the guts of the truck will be made by Tesla. ...
https://cleantechnica.com/2019/02/12/scoop-gm-working-on-electric-pickup-truck-with-tesla-powertrain/


Edit:
I can’t wait for the first bunch of loud, coal-rolling trucks to pull into a Supercharger station, ready to ICE some spots... only to find trucks already parked there.  Charging. :)
« Last Edit: February 12, 2019, 05:08:25 PM by Sigmetnow »
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oren

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Re: Tesla glory/failure
« Reply #1374 on: February 12, 2019, 08:41:51 PM »
If true, that is a very interesting development, with lots of possibilities and implications.

sidd

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Re: Tesla glory/failure
« Reply #1375 on: February 12, 2019, 08:56:54 PM »
Re: power outage, mad rush to get home

no neighbours who can fill in ?

sidd

Sigmetnow

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Re: Tesla glory/failure
« Reply #1376 on: February 13, 2019, 12:08:17 AM »
Quote
Daimler CEO Zetsche about the EQC:
"We are certain that we won't be able to satisfy the demand for 2019 and likely not for 2020."
When asked about the production capacity the journalist got a "no comment"
https://twitter.com/alex_avoigt/status/1095273128190709760

Long announced, delivered late - and then hardly to buy. Anyone interested in a Mercedes EQC will probably have to be patient.
Elektro-SUV von Mercedes EQC schon vor Marktstart ausverkauft
https://amp.n-tv.de/auto/EQC-schon-vor-Marktstart-ausverkauft-article20852697.html

————
$TSLA's technology/cost advantage is shown clearly in Audi's new E-tron:
Audi E-Tron - $96,629 base price, 241 mile range, 0-60 in 5.7sec, selling at a loss
Tesla Model X - $88,000 base price, 270 mile range, 0-60 in 4.7sec, 25-30% gross margin

Audi E-Tron Now On Sale In UK: Priced From £71,490
Quote
Audi’s new all-electric e-tron SUV has gone on sale ahead of the first customer deliveries in April.
Prices start from £71,490 ($91,875) after the £3,500 Plug-in Car Grant has been applied, but the top-of-the-range Launch Edition variant comes in at £82,240. [$105k]
https://insideevs.com/audi-e-tron-now-on-sale-in-uk-priced-from/

———
Nothing has changed since 2012. Threatened EV competition for #Tesla still “right around the corner”
Images of broken promises at the link.
https://threadreaderapp.com/thread/1094970184358682629.html

———
[Jaguar needs to raise $1B in 14 months to replace maturing bonds; seeks “alternative funding”]
https://twitter.com/valueanalyst1/status/1095307589372514307
Text image below.
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Sigmetnow

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Re: Tesla glory/failure
« Reply #1377 on: February 13, 2019, 12:13:19 AM »
"There is a significant chance the world economy is headed for a recession in 2019, according to Nobel Prize-winning economist Paul Krugman."
https://twitter.com/valueanalyst1/status/1095035373464571905

Elon Musk:  “And we expect that exponential to continue. So, with the deliveries this year being -- even if there's a global recession, we're expecting deliveries this year to be about 50% higher than last year. And this -- it could be a lot more than that.”
Tesla (TSLA) Q4 2018 Earnings Conference Call.  Jan 30, 2019.

———
Quote
Vincent (@vincent13031925) 2/11/19, 11:13 AM
Tesla is stepping up its GF3 construction in Shanghai, China. On Feb 11th, media learned from ppl close to the project that $TSLA Shanghai GF3 (Phase I) has started energy conservation assessment, & several relevant departments participated in the review.
https://www.cnbeta.com/articles/tech/817047.htm  [Article in Chinese.]
https://twitter.com/vincent13031925/status/1094992938931605504
Update:  Chinese media also mentioned Tesla Shanghai Gigafactory construction will be completed this summer, 2019.
**No further info about it just the phase 1 construction of the whole project. **

———-
[When your friend tells you, “OK, you can borrow my Tesla.  Just recharge it before you return.”]
https://twitter.com/liketeslakim/status/1095116443782402048
Image below. ;D
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Sigmetnow

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Re: Tesla glory/failure
« Reply #1378 on: February 13, 2019, 01:12:58 AM »
...
Scoop: GM Reportedly Working On Electric Pickup Truck With Tesla Powertrain
Quote
Remember, Chevrolet raced the Bolt to market in order to be the first US automaker offering a long-range, semi-affordable electric car. It cares about going electric, maybe.

A source somewhat close to the heart of a big new development at GM has informed CleanTechnica that GM is indeed working on an electric pickup truck, and it is based around a Tesla powertrain. As in, the majority of the guts of the truck will be made by Tesla. ...
https://cleantechnica.com/2019/02/12/scoop-gm-working-on-electric-pickup-truck-with-tesla-powertrain/
...

Quote
Update: Tesla has denied any such partnership with GM in response to an email from CleanTechnica.
Update #2: GM declined to comment.

 ??? Secret?

But then there’s this:

GM and Amazon in talks to invest in electric pickup/SUV maker Rivian
Quote
Reuters reports that GM and Amazon are looking to invest in Rivian at a valuation of $1 – 2 billion. The investment wouldn’t be a buyout – just a minority stake. Rivian already reportedly raised over $500 million in previous rounds of funding.
The deal could be announced as soon as this month. Details beyond that are sparse but the mere prospect of these two companies investing in Rivian automatically adds some credibility to the company.
https://electrek.co/2019/02/12/rivian-gm-amazon/
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Rob Dekker

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Re: Tesla glory/failure
« Reply #1379 on: February 13, 2019, 10:57:20 AM »
It should be obvious by now that Tesla caused a world-wide Electric Vehicle revolution, disturbing markets for EV makers in China and German ICE vehicles alike.

Meanwhile, the company keeps track of how much CO2 was saved (not emitted) by Tesla vehicle drivers :

https://www.tesla.com/carbonimpact

Almost 4 Mega-ton !

And they will likely double that next year.

I know there are many skeptical voices here about Tesla.

But name a company that saved more CO2.

And for the skeptics :

If not by de-carbonizing transportation with electric vehicles, how else do you envision that we get to a carbon-neutral world ?
This is our planet. This is our time.
Let's not waste either.

gerontocrat

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Re: Tesla glory/failure
« Reply #1380 on: February 13, 2019, 05:09:54 PM »
TESLA - You are doomed!!!
https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2019-02-12/tesla-s-latest-competitor-is-a-15-500-electric-three-wheeler
Canada's Answer to Tesla Is a $15,500 Electric Three-Wheeler
"Para a Causa do Povo a Luta Continua!"
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Re: Tesla glory/failure
« Reply #1381 on: February 14, 2019, 08:16:31 PM »
there is a documentation on tesla tongight 21:00 on german channel Phoenix

the titel suggests that on one hand it's common sense that tesla is ahead when it comes to
EVs but that they're more and more getting into trouble for various reasons that were discussed in this forum.

for those who are interested and can't watch (reception over astra satellite as well possible)

here is the link to online information: https://www.phoenix.de/sendungen.html

before that at 20:15 there is a discussion about diesel-gate

FYI "Phoenix" is one of the more reputable channels while there is no 100% trustworthy channel at all, at least they try to be objective most of the time and provide many discussions with guests from most sides of the spectrum.

EDIT: corrected reputable ;) thanks Tor
« Last Edit: February 14, 2019, 10:27:10 PM by magnamentis »
http://magnamentis.com
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Sigmetnow

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Re: Tesla glory/failure
« Reply #1382 on: February 14, 2019, 09:22:46 PM »
Quote
I like Tesla (@iliketeslas) 2/12/19, 4:08 AM
I have repeated this for years. Tesla will partner with big auto because big auto is broke without Tesla. It's super clear. $tsla $tslaq
https://twitter.com/iliketeslas/status/1095248202108977152

Quote
Tesla Driver (@m_xalher) 2/12/19, 2:34 PM
Norway’s leading Volvo importer says it’s been hit by “EV tsunami”. Development tempo in Norwegian market “too high” for the auto industry to keep up. (Business daily DN today)
https://twitter.com/m_xalher/status/1095405832257323009

Quote
LiveSquawk (@LiveSquawk) 2/12/19, 5:37 PM
Ford Is Stepping Up Preparations To Move Production Out Of Britain - The Times, Citing Company Statement To PM May In Private Call With Business Leaders
https://twitter.com/livesquawk/status/1095451775920992256

——-
Quote
Elon Musk (@elonmusk) 2/14/19, 1:12 AM
Some sites maintained an almost daily Tesla deathwatch 11 years ago, reporting with an awful delight. 
4000 days later …
https://twitter.com/elonmusk/status/1095928711331831808

Tesla Vs World: Unique Look Back At Tesla Killers That Failed To Kill
https://insideevs.com/tesla-vs-world-tesla-killers-vaporware/

No, Rivian is most definitely not ‘Tesla’s worst nightmare’
https://www.teslarati.com/tesla-vs-rivian-rivalry-debunked/
(It’s Ford’s! ;) )

——
Quote
(@rocketisfine) 2/13/19, 6:59 AM
So @Tesla parked a Model X in downtown Cologne (Germany) & within like 10 minutes people were queuing to sign up for test drives
https://twitter.com/rocketisfine/status/1095653604025950208

—-
Quote
Vincent (@vincent13031925) 2/13/19, 2:12 PM
Chinese Gov media CCTV reports:
The first batch of @Tesla Model 3 arrived in Tianjin Port.
Two other freighters with M3, "Morning Cindy" and "Emerald Ace", will also arrive in Shanghai and Tianjin Ports next week.
https://twitter.com/vincent13031925/status/1095762568235237376
     
Rather balanced article:
Tesla Rushes Model 3s to China Before Trade-War Truce Expires
https://www.bloomberg.com/amp/news/articles/2019-02-13/tesla-rushes-model-3s-to-china-before-trade-war-truce-expires?__twitter_impression=true
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zizek

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Re: Tesla glory/failure
« Reply #1383 on: February 15, 2019, 02:43:39 AM »
https://arstechnica.com/cars/2019/02/in-2017-the-feds-said-tesla-autopilot-cut-crashes-40-that-was-bogus/


Quote
In 2017, the feds said Tesla Autopilot cut crashes 40%—that was bogus


Quote
But now NHTSA's raw data set is available, and, if anything, it appears to contradict Musk's claims. The majority of the vehicles in the Tesla data set suffered from missing data or other problems that made it impossible to say whether the activation of Autosteer increased or decreased the crash rate. But when QCS focused on 5,714 vehicles whose data didn't suffer from these problems, it found that the activation of Autosteer actually increased crash rates by 59 percent.


At this point I'm pretty sure Musk has never made any claims that aren't outright lies or grossly exaggerated. From his philanthropy (promising to fix Flint's water crisis, but instead bought teachers laptops), to his SpaceX sci-fi bologna (a water tower company built his mars transporter prototype), and almost everything surrounding Tesla. Why are people on this forum still defending him? He should be openly mocked.





https://www.wivb.com/news/investigates/former-tesla-workers-paint-grim-picture-of-buffalo-plant/1754568826

Quote
In November, Tesla gave the media its first glimpse inside the Buffalo factory.

Employees described it as a “dog and pony” show that was planned by Tesla for over a month. They said Tesla had walls built to hide unused equipment and blocked off large areas. Tesla said the employees are mistaken and saw a warehouse constructed to both secure and protect equipment and to organize the space.

The tour was an extremely controlled event, with the company picking employees to speak with reporters and not letting cameras inside. Footage recorded by Tesla was provided to television outlets like News 4.

“It was all fabricated for show,” Witherell said.

“There was no actual production that day so some of the teams in their specific area were instructed to make sure they looked busy and they actually were working on the same module over and over again.”

----
https://twitter.com/willCIR/status/1095094022173949953

Quote
Remember when @elonmusk claimed that Cal/OSHA looked into Tesla underreporting injuries and found "that we had not been doing anything of the sort"?

Well, it wasn't true then, and it's even less true now. Cal/OSHA just cited Tesla *again* for failing to record worker injuries.



it's become a weekly thing that I read something that displays Musk's dishonesty and fraudulent behavior. He's like the Donald Trump for tech obsessed weirdos.

And then I read this thread. Sigmetnow has a particular knack for posting only positive news about Tesla. And obsessively. It drowns everything out while making Musk look like Our Only Savior. It's tiring and annoying. People who digest a lot of information through these boards will get the wrong idea.

Musk is an awful person, and his "vision" to save us from climate change is a scam to make himself richer and more powerful. Why the hell do you people not get that? How are $60,000 cars doing anything about climate change? You could buy 300 $200 bicycles with that sort of money. I just don't get it. I really don't.

I feel like I'm going insane every time I read this thread. You would think that a forum dedicated to climate change would have a little common sense and TRY to be critical of a billionaire who flies around in a private jet.

How many years do we have left to save us from climate change? Do we really have the luxury to blindly embrace every billionaires vanity project  in the hope that "he's actually one of the good ones, he's gonna save us, please don't say anything mean about him".

How long will it take before we finally realize that there is something fundamentally wrong with the approach we're taking for climate change? The idea that People like Musk are our only hope is got to be the best example of how the rich and powerful have bound us into our miserable stockholm syndrome.
It is so hopeless. Defeating climate change. We're still stuck throwing money at rich people. And I don't see us ever stopping until it's too late.

We should be building guillotines not cars.

oren

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Re: Tesla glory/failure
« Reply #1384 on: February 15, 2019, 03:40:21 AM »
You can believe whatever you choose to believe about Musk and whatever, but advocating guillotines for rich people as a solution?

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Re: Tesla glory/failure
« Reply #1385 on: February 15, 2019, 03:50:23 AM »
Let's say you are right zizek. Musk and Telsa are bad and should go away. Then what is the play? I see the main argument against Telsa being
1) it takes up time and money that could otherwise go to other solutions, and
2) it consumes the conversion, thus preventing the discussion from going towards higher impact solutions.

It's the old Green BAU vs. end BAU argument. After 12 years of corporate sustainability consulting, I, unfortunately, land squarely in the Green BAU view as human nature simply won't allow BAU to stop. Ending Telsa would more than likely mean the auto industry goes back to slow playing anything new and we lose another decade while waiting for China EVs to hit western quality standards and take over.

This isn't to say I like Green BAU over end BAU (and I would guess most Green BAU advocates don't either) - Green BAU will end up leaving us with 3 to 4 degrees temperature rise. On the other hand going for an end BAU approach would likely leave us with 5+ degrees temperature as the reality is nothing would change beyond isolated pockets.

zizek

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Re: Tesla glory/failure
« Reply #1386 on: February 15, 2019, 04:07:53 AM »
You can believe whatever you choose to believe about Musk and whatever, but advocating guillotines for rich people as a solution?

That was a joke. Obviously. jeez. But just to humor myself:
15TWh of fossil fuel electricity production. $.06 per kWh for renewables, we're looking at about $900 billion dollars to decarbonize the worldwide electricity grid.

The collective wealth of all the 2,200 billionaires is 9.1 trillions.  So if we guillotined those 2200 billionaires we would be able to use their wealth to decarbonize the world's electrical grid, and hopefully save humanity. (I know wealth doesn't really translate well into anything liquid, but we're just having fun).

And at what cost, you would probably only need hundred guillotines at most. You're talking no more than $100,000. It's simple math here.

oren

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Re: Tesla glory/failure
« Reply #1387 on: February 15, 2019, 04:12:38 AM »
Let's say you are right zizek. Musk and Telsa are bad and should go away. Then what is the play? I see the main argument against Telsa being
1) it takes up time and money that could otherwise go to other solutions, and
2) it consumes the conversion, thus preventing the discussion from going towards higher impact solutions.

It's the old Green BAU vs. end BAU argument. After 12 years of corporate sustainability consulting, I, unfortunately, land squarely in the Green BAU view as human nature simply won't allow BAU to stop. Ending Telsa would more than likely mean the auto industry goes back to slow playing anything new and we lose another decade while waiting for China EVs to hit western quality standards and take over.

This isn't to say I like Green BAU over end BAU (and I would guess most Green BAU advocates don't either) - Green BAU will end up leaving us with 3 to 4 degrees temperature rise. On the other hand going for an end BAU approach would likely leave us with 5+ degrees temperature as the reality is nothing would change beyond isolated pockets.
Well said!

zizek

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Re: Tesla glory/failure
« Reply #1388 on: February 15, 2019, 04:41:31 AM »
Let's say you are right zizek. Musk and Telsa are bad and should go away. Then what is the play? I see the main argument against Telsa being
1) it takes up time and money that could otherwise go to other solutions, and
2) it consumes the conversion, thus preventing the discussion from going towards higher impact solutions.

It's the old Green BAU vs. end BAU argument. After 12 years of corporate sustainability consulting, I, unfortunately, land squarely in the Green BAU view as human nature simply won't allow BAU to stop. Ending Telsa would more than likely mean the auto industry goes back to slow playing anything new and we lose another decade while waiting for China EVs to hit western quality standards and take over.

This isn't to say I like Green BAU over end BAU (and I would guess most Green BAU advocates don't either) - Green BAU will end up leaving us with 3 to 4 degrees temperature rise. On the other hand going for an end BAU approach would likely leave us with 5+ degrees temperature as the reality is nothing would change beyond isolated pockets.

It's pretty straight forward: A radical transformation of our society. Redistribute labor and wealth to both decarbonize our world while becoming an equitable society.
This will be the result of a revolution.

What you have to understand that a revolution is to occur no matter what. Things are not getting better, things are getting worse and worse. Economically, politically, and of course environmentally. A couple decades from now, the 9 billion people on this earth are not going to handle the simultaneous assault of climate change and extreme inequality with much grace. People who are on the brink of starvation are not going to look at billionaires and say to themselves "those guys tried their best, I will just rot here, no problemo". No, Things are going to get Very Ugly.

But, and its up to you, you can reduce the amount of suffering by expediting a radical transformation. If first worlders start thinking a little more creatively, and are more willingly to sacrifice their luxuries, they may pave way for a more peaceful revolution.
Take a hard line against capitalism, and become a role model for an equal and responsible society.
DON'T own multiple properties like NeilT does.
DON'T support violent imperialism like Rob does
DON'T support corporate centrists like Susan does.

START organizing, collaborating, communicating with leftist orgs in your area
START calling out exploitative ideology in your day-to-day. At dinner parties, at work, even on the internet.

MAKE A SACRIFICE. And maybe... just maybe.... We can create a better world. But simply buying solar panels and an expensive car isn't enough. You have to be creative. You have to be bold.  And you have to start now!


Ask yourself this. Let's say you're in your twenties, and have to decide how you're going to confront climate change. And lets say you have an extra $60,000 to blow.  Do you use the $60,000 to buy a fancy EV. Or do you use that money to get active in radical transformation by organizing events, printing pamphlets, supporting other orgs, and of course riding a fucking bike.

Because when 2050 rolls around and millions of people are dying from climate change related disasters, you're not going to look back and pat yourself on the back for buying a car.

oren

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Re: Tesla glory/failure
« Reply #1389 on: February 15, 2019, 09:45:31 AM »
It's pretty straight forward: A radical transformation of our society. Redistribute labor and wealth to both decarbonize our world while becoming an equitable society.
This will be the result of a revolution.
A commendable goal. But how is this revolution coming along? I fear not at all, at least for the next two decades.

Quote
What you have to understand that a revolution is to occur no matter what. Things are not getting better, things are getting worse and worse. Economically, politically, and of course environmentally. A couple decades from now, the 9 billion people on this earth are not going to handle the simultaneous assault of climate change and extreme inequality with much grace. People who are on the brink of starvation are not going to look at billionaires and say to themselves "those guys tried their best, I will just rot here, no problemo". No, Things are going to get Very Ugly.
I agree.  But I strongly doubt the result will be an equitable redistribution of wealth and labor. I foresee lots of wars of strong against weak, fighting over diminishing resources, with the end resembling feudalism.

Quote
...
MAKE A SACRIFICE. And maybe... just maybe.... We can create a better world. But simply buying solar panels and an expensive car isn't enough. You have to be creative. You have to be bold.  And you have to start now!
Maybe we can convince a majority of the global population. But probably not, and certainly not in time IMHO. And then you get the full environmental disaster.

Quote
Ask yourself this. Let's say you're in your twenties, and have to decide how you're going to confront climate change. And lets say you have an extra $60,000 to blow.  Do you use the $60,000 to buy a fancy EV. Or do you use that money to get active in radical transformation by organizing events, printing pamphlets, supporting other orgs, and of course riding a fucking bike.

Because when 2050 rolls around and millions of people are dying from climate change related disasters, you're not going to look back and pat yourself on the back for buying a car.
Coming back just barely to the topic of this thread, ask yourself this. Do you have a recommendation or preference for the 100 million people buying a car or light truck each year, despite your best pamphlets and your bike-riding? My preference, after wishing for them to not buy that car, is for them to buy a car with the least long-term environmental damage. And such a car, with current technologies, is an efficient EV. And for these people to choose that EV, it has to be attractive and affordable compared to what they were going to get anyway. There you have it, this is why I am happy when EVs replace ICE cars, not because I think this is a sufficient or even a good solution, but because it lessens the environmental catastrophe awaiting mid-century. Meanwhile, I will keep hoping for an end to consumerism, but hope alone is not a viable strategy.
Tesla's long-term goal is to produce (or cause to be produced by others) efficient, attractive and affordable EVs. They started with $100k cars for the very rich, are now at upscale $40k cars for the well-to-do, and hopefully will get to average $25k cars in 5 years. These cars will also have a used market at cheaper prices. And Tesla's very existence is pressuring other automakers to come up with lots of other EVs, some even cheaper than that, thereby giving the 100 million car buyers cleaner options for their choosing.
This is why I hope Tesla will survive and prosper. And this is the subject of this thread. Not the coming revolution, not even whether EVs are environmentally better than ICE, only whether Tesla will succeed or fail and other related news and analysis.

Another Tesla-related point: I strongly believe that in your hatred for capitalism and over-consumption, and in you strong wish for an outright revolution, you are very skewed in your assessment of Musk and Tesla. Tesla is not a scam waiting to go bankrupt, and Musk is not an arch-villain. They have their failings and are not perfect, but they are not the problem, the problem is those 100 million people each year that nobody yet has managed to stop.

Neven

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Re: Tesla glory/failure
« Reply #1390 on: February 15, 2019, 10:18:05 AM »
And then I read this thread. Sigmetnow has a particular knack for posting only positive news about Tesla. And obsessively.

That's the whole idea of this thread! How often do I need to repeat it?

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It drowns everything out while making Musk look like Our Only Savior. It's tiring and annoying. People who digest a lot of information through these boards will get the wrong idea.

Then instead of ranting, post Tesla bear stuff! Or have your say, wait and see, and then go TYS.

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We should be building guillotines not cars.

I know you don't mean this literally, but try to keep in mind - it's hard, I know - that rich people are just as much victims as we are. They are concentrated wealth junkies, nothing more than puppets. They should be pitied, not hated.

Take the rants elsewhere (preferably a Green BAU thread) or create your own thread. I've been very clear about what this thread is about: Tesla's survival/demise. Not the consequences of its survival/demise, or the moral implications. Next rant will be snipped.
Il faut comparer, comparer, comparer, et cultiver notre jardin

Sigmetnow

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Re: Tesla glory/failure
« Reply #1391 on: February 15, 2019, 01:23:45 PM »
Do you consider a Prius owner to be “wealthy”?  How about an owner of a Nissan LEAF? Or a Honda Civic? 
The top five trade-ins for a Model 3 were:

Honda Accord
Honda Civic
Nissan Leaf
Toyota Prius
BMW 3 Series

“...Consumers are significantly changing their purchasing habits in order to buy a Model 3.”

They are spending more money than they otherwise would...  to buy a product that significantly lowers their carbon emissions — whether that is their reason for the purchase, or not.  This is precisely the type of mindset we need right now!

From the Q4 2018 Tesla Update letter:
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The appeal of Model 3 continues to go far beyond the mid-sized premium sedan market. Our trade-in data suggests that consumers are significantly changing their purchasing habits in order to buy a Model 3. Of all trade-ins we’ve ever received from customers buying a Model 3, only 17% are other mid-sized premium sedans. Perhaps more surprisingly, almost 60% of these trade-ins are non-premium vehicles. We are also seeing that a significant number of Model 3 buyers are trading down in size from a larger car or a SUV to a Model 3. Designed from the ground up to be electric, Model 3 has more interior space than its gas-powered equivalents. Interestingly, Model S accounted for only a small portion (4%) of total Model 3 trade-ins.
« Last Edit: February 15, 2019, 01:40:49 PM by Sigmetnow »
People who say it cannot be done should not interrupt those who are doing it.

Sigmetnow

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Re: Tesla glory/failure
« Reply #1392 on: February 15, 2019, 01:35:43 PM »
Working for Tesla is not easy.

Tesla ends contract to prepare Model 3 for delivery in Europe a week after first ship
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A week after the first shipment of Model 3 vehicles arrived in Europe, Tesla is reportedly ending its contract with the company preparing the vehicles at the port due to complications.

As we reported last week, Tesla received its first massive shipment of Model 3 vehicles at the Zeebrugge port for European deliveries, which started a day later.  CEO Elon Musk confirmed that Tesla experienced some difficulties handling the shipment at the port.  It resulted in many buyers having their delivery delayed.

The automaker had reportedly hired a company called ICO to handle 3,000 Model 3’s per week coming to Europe, but Belgium news is now reporting that ICO will no longer prepare the vehicles after unloading them from the ships.


According to the reports, Tesla has decided to handle the delivery preparation of Model 3 itself in order to accelerate the process.  The decision came after Musk visited the Zeebrugge port and there was also a day-long strike that affected port workers and reportedly resulted in delaying some Tesla deliveries.

We contacted Tesla about the situation, but the company didn’t issue a comment.

About 100 ICO workers hired specifically for the Model 3 contract were reportedly told not to show up to work.

There are several more ships with Model 3 vehicles currently on their way to the Zeebrugge port as Tesla ramps up Model 3 deliveries in Europe.
https://electrek.co/2019/02/15/tesla-ends-contract-model-3-delivery-europe/
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magnamentis

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Re: Tesla glory/failure
« Reply #1393 on: February 15, 2019, 06:10:18 PM »
thanks to tesla things are developing in ernest by now.

first productions of new mercedes and  audi EVs are sold out and the waiting list is getting longer and longer.

https://www.auto-motor-und-sport.de/elektroauto/elektro-suv-audi-e-tron-mercedes-eqc-ausverkauft/

as i said, thanks to tesla this happens now and not in 10-20 years but it won't make things easier for tesla to say it nicely.

i recommend to read the test ride review about the audi e-tron and especially the part about some technological qualities and how i and others compare the "feel" between riding various EVs.

i'm ever more certain that things will go the way i thought from day one. major players shall overwhelm early birds like a tsunami once they start to produce in numers.

another very interesting comparison would be model S with the new porsche taycan. even though i was seriously looking at the iPace for later this year i now seriously consider to wait for the porsche, after all not one of them has ever let me down over the last 45 years whenever i had the pleasure to drive one of those. mosty 911s and one 928 back in the 80s.

perhaps i have to mention that i produce electricity for AC, Heating and Vehicles on my own roof with wind and PV and a decent battery storage with used car and truck batteries and that i keep my vehicles for 10-15 years. yes, smaller would be better but there is the point where we come from and then there is the question what uses less resources, quality that lasts 20-30 years or small and cheap that lasts 5-10 years. last but no least i admit that i like it powerful and fast, not so easy to flip from one extreme to another and since we're in the tesla thread, they as well are luxury vehicles and fast and powerful as that ;)

i think very interesting times lay ahead and as kind of an old-school car and motorbike enthusiast  i would be happy to see nice toys that run on electricity rather than fuel. that includes a serious lookout for a nice E-SportsTourer that doesn't cost 50'000 €uros with a decent performance. my current Concour GTR1400 by Kawasaki is definitely kind of a "Mammuth" that has to die out with a 7-8 l/100km consumption for the 400kg it weighs, 1 rider included.

https://www.autoguide.com/car-comparisons/porsche-taycan-vs-tesla-model-s-which-ev-is-right-for-you

i think it's obvious that any non-english text can easily translated nowadays, even on-site translation exists nowadays via google and other tools.
« Last Edit: February 15, 2019, 06:47:18 PM by magnamentis »
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oren

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Re: Tesla glory/failure
« Reply #1394 on: February 15, 2019, 07:51:06 PM »
Thanks for your interesting post Magnamentis. I also found the linked review quite objective and informative which is nice. Honestly until the Taycan is actually available some of this is speculation, so we'll know better in a few months. Another issue is whether it will be available in large numbers, which I suspect not.
The way I see it, Tesla's advantages are in drive-train, batteries and efficient design (e.g. drag coefficient). Traditional automaker advantages are quality and "feel" for the high-end makers, plus brand loyalty, and streamlined mass production and logistics for the mass-market makers. I would not be surprised if eventually Model S and X will lose out to the high end models from traditional automakers, but I don't think this will bring Tesla down. Tesla's main revenue is expected to come from the mid-market Model 3 and upcoming Model Y, where its advantages are still significant, as they enable it to make a profit on such cars and still provide sufficient range and performance, while the traditional automakers are having a hard time making such cars at both spec and profit, and are mostly aiming for compliance cars at the moment. This could well change in 5-10 years, but I wouldn't bet on it just yet.
There is also the wildcard of the Tesla Semi, which could be a low-volume flop or a profitable big hit, but this will only be known at least 2 years from now, after initial deliveries, production hell and all that.

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Re: Tesla glory/failure
« Reply #1395 on: February 16, 2019, 12:21:44 AM »
<I agree, but snip anyway; N.>
« Last Edit: February 16, 2019, 09:22:14 AM by Neven »

zizek

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Re: Tesla glory/failure
« Reply #1396 on: February 16, 2019, 12:50:33 AM »
I like this website:

https://www.tesla.com/en_CA/carbonimpact

Because it provides absolutely no context. It tries to tell me that Tesla has reduced emissions by 3.5 million tons***.  But if all those people decided to use public transportation or riding a bicycle, their emissions would actually be in the red

Technically, in only 87 days BP managed to reduce almost 2 million tons (or about 4 million Tesla tons***) of CO2 by putting that oil in the ocean instead. Amazing.

---------
****
hahaha. Oh my god. When I did my calculations I didn't know what unit of ton TSLA was using.  So I added all the pounds from each country to get a total amount of pounds. But I couldn't get anything that matched their total. But that's because they divided their total lbs by 1000, rather than 2000 (or 2200). It's not a metric tonne, or an imperial ton. It's an imaginary ton.   ;D
their CO2 emissions are off by a factor of 2. hahaha.  Someone please check my work. this is too good.

zizek

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Re: Tesla glory/failure
« Reply #1397 on: February 16, 2019, 12:57:27 AM »
Oh and I almost forgot about that time Musk donated a bunch of money to the Republican party. 

zizek

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Re: Tesla glory/failure
« Reply #1398 on: February 16, 2019, 01:20:43 AM »
I like this website:

https://www.tesla.com/en_CA/carbonimpact

Because it provides absolutely no context. It tries to tell me that Tesla has reduced emissions by 3.5 million tons***.  But if all those people decided to use public transportation or riding a bicycle, their emissions would actually be in the red

Technically, in only 87 days BP managed to reduce almost 2 million tons (or about 4 million Tesla tons***) of CO2 by putting that oil in the ocean instead. Amazing.

---------
****
hahaha. Oh my god. When I did my calculations I didn't know what unit of ton TSLA was using.  So I added all the pounds from each country to get a total amount of pounds. But I couldn't get anything that matched their total. But that's because they divided their total lbs by 1000, rather than 2000 (or 2200). It's not a metric tonne, or an imperial ton. It's an imaginary ton.   ;D
their CO2 emissions are off by a factor of 2. hahaha.  Someone please check my work. this is too good.



Actually I think BP is better off than Tesla because at least BP didn't sell pollution credits so other companies can pay to pollute for them!

Archimid

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Re: Tesla glory/failure
« Reply #1399 on: February 16, 2019, 04:26:04 AM »
The lies and trolling, I can get used to, but insulting Sigmet Now for posting on topic links is wrong.

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