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GoSouthYoungins

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Re: Tesla glory/failure
« Reply #2000 on: April 14, 2019, 04:48:37 AM »
This is a fucking joke, we know that we are far too deep in the shit with far to much inertia for switching over to EV's to matter at this point.

You don't get it. EVs run on the sun and wind. This is just the tip of the iceberg. Soon there will be machines which pull CO2 out of the air and convert it to stable and USABLE energy. Multiply that with the decision making capability of a neural network and climate change can be SOLVED.

We, mere mortals may not understand it now. Heck, we may never understand it. But the computers are so much smarter and safer than we are! WE DON"T NEED TO UNDERSTAND, JUST BELIEVE!!!

As for the "inertia" in the system?!? I have no idea what you are talking about. So what if there is a several decades lag in the effects of GHGs being felt. Even less important is the lag in respond time to decision made today to real world change. Computers operate on an entirely different time scale.

Genius billionaires will soon be at the helm of tech which can solve problems that basic uncyborgized-humans don't even know are problems. Climate change will be a cake walk. There is likely a benefit to warming that AI will see and utilize for us. People will very soon be able to sit back and relax (likely on Mars), and enjoy life without the tyranny of driving or traffic or thinking, and we can watch our problems be solved without even a thought or care.

This will be an order of magnitude more mindblowing than anything previously experienced by humanity. Super-high-tech! Probably won't even blow over in a 50mph wind.


Oh and Elon says that April 22nd is the day the tyranny of driving ends. Exciting times.

https://twitter.com/elonmusk/status/1117096350301085697
big time oops

Archimid

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Re: Tesla glory/failure
« Reply #2001 on: April 14, 2019, 04:11:35 PM »
 Sarcasm is powerful and tough to defeat? Let see what I can do.

Quote
You don't get it. EVs run on the sun and wind.

That is the aspiration. Is not a reality yet, but good people everywhere ( not just Tesla) are working very hard to make it so.

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This is just the tip of the iceberg.

It is.

 
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Soon there will be machines which pull CO2 out of the air and convert it to stable and USABLE energy.

That is not certain. These machines will have to be heavily subsidized because capturing CO2 consumes copious amounts of energy. If engineers and leaders work very hard AND individuals, groups and governments support the growth of these machines then yes. We could capture CO2.

Quote
Multiply that with the decision making capability of a neural network

Yes, a theoretical super intelligent AI could solve the problem faster, but we may be very far from that, if at all possible. We should be working on that but we shouldn't rest our hopes in the development of such machine.

Quote
WE DON"T NEED TO UNDERSTAND, JUST BELIEVE!!!

Faith without works is dead.


Quote
Genius billionaires will soon be at the helm of tech which can solve problems that basic uncyborgized-humans don't even know are problems.

Elon has been warning us about this for years. Super intelligent AI in the wrong hands will be very dangerous. Sadly just like with climate change, people are too convinced of their own superiority to do anything about it.


Quote
Climate change will be a cake walk.

Climate change will kill us all. However, people with solar panels, batteries and electric cars have better chances of survival. As long as we don't block out the sun as we fight over the last scraps.

Quote
There is likely a benefit to warming that AI will see and utilize for us

If that is so, then great. I really DGAF about what is the temperature of the planet. I just want a happy and safe life. But for now, since there is no super intelligent AI to solve it it is better to avoid the warming.

Quote
People will very soon be able to sit back and relax (likely on Mars), and enjoy life without the tyranny of driving or traffic or thinking, and we can watch our problems be solved without even a thought or care.

Ignoring the philosophical paradoxes of your statement, that is the gist of it.
I am an energy reservoir seemingly intent on lowering entropy for self preservation.

magnamentis

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Re: Tesla glory/failure
« Reply #2002 on: April 14, 2019, 04:33:24 PM »
Sarcasm is powerful and tough to defeat? Let see what I can do.

Climate change will kill us all. However, people with solar panels, batteries and electric cars have better chances of survival. As long as we don't block out the sun as we fight over the last scraps.

in short, good points, nice read and in the core true all the rest you just wrote except:

the quoted part is either not true at all or at least not probable or most certainly not as "CERTAIN" as you word it.

it really depends on:

- whether we talk sheer survival, then i'm sure mankind will survive

- level of civilization, this i dunno but will probably be some lower than nowadays

- number of inhabitants on spaceship earth, will probably be significantly lower at one point
. in the future or perhaps for a longer period of time.

what we shall see is of course huge disruptions of all kinds, once we have to shift agrable land up north, shift a huge number of huge major cities up-hill so to say. etc.

those disruptions will kill many, not the climate itself.
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Neven

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Re: Tesla glory/failure
« Reply #2003 on: April 14, 2019, 06:24:07 PM »
I let some of GSY's comments through because they are so funny, but please, don't use them as a basis for discussions, if only because that's not the purpose of this thread.
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GoSouthYoungins

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Re: Tesla glory/failure
« Reply #2004 on: April 15, 2019, 03:05:06 AM »
Elon went a twitter bender today...accusing the WSJ of shilling for big oil, doubling down of 500k annually, double down on giving the finger to the SEC, claim that super AI is about to super rule, etc.

My interpretation is the suicide by cop theory. He is trying to have the SEC or DOJ or BoD push him out. He likely doesn't want to be at the helm when Tesla becomes the first trillion dollar auto company. He is self-less and is trying to save the world. There is no room for running a successful business.

Musk 2020
big time oops

Lurk

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Re: Tesla glory/failure
« Reply #2005 on: April 15, 2019, 05:36:56 AM »
Is it dead yet?

My God, I sure hope so ...
“We have time now, ten years, perhaps twenty years, to do something about it. The longer we leave it the more difficult it is going to be and if we leave it too long… the natural system will collapse.”
Sir David Attenborough - April 2019

Sigmetnow

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Re: Tesla glory/failure
« Reply #2006 on: April 15, 2019, 01:26:17 PM »
“I’ve always thought that the fundamental good of Tesla should be measured by the number of years by which it accelerates the transition to sustainable transport & energy”
- Elon Musk

Long-read on Demand, By Alex Voigt:

The Mystery Of Tesla Model 3 Demand
Quote
Demand is a mystery that can only be measured once supply is provided, and at that point, it’s not demand anymore. You only know what demand you really had after its gone. Supply is a fact you can easily measure, while demand is never really known or completely understood. Even worse, the supply you measure is usually only a part of the demand you once had, and the closer you get to the moment of supply, the more you know how real the demand is.

A simple definition of demand is: “what people want.”
“If I had asked people what they wanted, they would have asked for faster horses,” Henry Ford is reported to have said (or not).

This polarizing sentence is an expression of consumer imagination limitation with a touch of arrogance. If you ask consumers, they tend to request better existing features instead of a new kind of vehicle or product that did not exist before. The very same that has been true for the transition from horses to cars is today true for the transition from gas combustion engines to electric cars.

You can rightfully state what Henry Ford really said is that consumers are dumb and he as a visionary knows better what they want than they do themselves. Admittedly, he was more polite, and admittedly, his success probably proved he was right. Once people had experienced the superiority of the Model T versus their horse, they suddenly knew that they wanted one, and they knew it with certainty. ...
https://cleantechnica.com/2019/04/14/the-mystery-of-tesla-model-3-demand/

Quote
Quote
Elon Musk (@elonmusk) 4/14/19, 11:55 PM
Buying a car in 2019 that can’t upgrade to full self-driving is like buying a horse instead of a car in 1919
cleantechnica.com/2019/04/14/the-mystery-of-tesla-model-3-demand/
https://twitter.com/elonmusk/status/1117637496517603329

< Well.. horses do have pretty good autopilot
Quote
Elon Musk (@elonmusk) 4/14/19, 11:59 PM
Haha true. I actually love horses.
https://twitter.com/elonmusk/status/1117638448171692033
Wild horses roam around the land outside Gigafactory 1 in Nevada....
« Last Edit: April 15, 2019, 01:32:39 PM by Sigmetnow »
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Lurk

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Re: Tesla glory/failure
« Reply #2007 on: April 15, 2019, 05:45:16 PM »
Psssst. Shush, don't make a sound. Yes I'm whispering, because I don't want this little secret getting out just yet. I was going to upload it to Wikileaks, but I am not sure that's a safe bet any more .. so the asif is all that's left. Maybe GSY could get the word out on the jungle drums, or someone else, but on the quiet. OK? Here's the article title:

The Mystery Of the $35,000 Standard Base Model 3

In previous 'coded' messages above we reviewed the 'Pea and Shells Game' that Tesla has been playing on their unsuspecting customers, supporters and the markets. The jig is up though. I won't keep you in suspense any longer - there is no $35K base Model 3 - it does not exist. Their math didn't end up adding up.

What Elon promised about 18 months ago has turned out to be impossible. Can not be done! iow, this 'rocket' could not get off the ground. What you're being offered now as the $39,500 Standard Range Plus Model 3 is really the '$35K base Model 3' Elon Musk was promising!

What Tesla are selling as the $35K $37K Base Model 3 (with AutoPilot included as 'standard' now) is actually the Standard Base Model 3 Minus

All the dodgy changing news announcements so far this year, culminating with their April 11 announcement https://www.tesla.com/blog/update-our-vehicle-lineup has been a ruse to cover up the fact that what Elon Musk had promised the world ... and the Stock Market ... could not be delivered.

So, summarising, what you got instead of the promised $35K base Model 3 is actually the $39,500 base Model 3, which Tesla has simply renamed as - Standard Range Plus Model 3 - to cover up the fact they have been misinforming the Stock Market for about 18 months.

I must protect my sources for now but eventually the evidence will out and become public. The Board minutes will leak. The emails and the texts will be uploaded somewhere. Because cover-ups can never be covered up for long these days. :)
“We have time now, ten years, perhaps twenty years, to do something about it. The longer we leave it the more difficult it is going to be and if we leave it too long… the natural system will collapse.”
Sir David Attenborough - April 2019

Neven

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Re: Tesla glory/failure
« Reply #2008 on: April 15, 2019, 06:07:38 PM »
What I don't understand, is how the 35K Model 3 isn't profitable. I mean, didn't that Munro guy and some Germans take the car apart and estimate the cost of production, which was substantially lower than 35K?

Here I found something from earlier this year:

Quote
Speaking of costs, one of the more interesting parts comes when the group starts discussing profit margins. Munro estimates the base $35,000 Model 3 can hit an 18 percent gross margin from the Fremont factory. He had previously stated the big-battery variants could achieve over 30 percent margins. As impressive as that sounds, Munro becomes especially ebullient when discussing the potential for profit when the mid-size sedan begins to be produced in China.

He thinks there is a lot of room for reducing margins once production begins at Gigafactory 3 in Shanghai. He posits that if the automaker doesn’t repeat mistakes made State-side, there is an opportunity to remove 20 percent of the cost of its U.S. counterpart. And that’s apart from an additional $300 he believes could be removed from the car’s “body-in-white” if it’s re-engineered.

This, along with the removal of government penalties for foreign production and the huge popularity of the Tesla brand in China, makes it easy to understand why he exclaimed at one point, “When he takes it to China, he’s gonna make a gazillion bucks.”

Or this one, from October last year:

Quote
In their coverage of their first teardown of the Model 3 back in July, they confirmed a bottom-up cost to build the Model 3 is probably under $30,000, supporting Tesla’s estimate that it could achieve nearly a 30% margin on the car.
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sedziobs

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Re: Tesla glory/failure
« Reply #2009 on: April 15, 2019, 06:14:00 PM »
I wonder if those potential margins are assuming a 10k/week production rate.  Tesla has been putting out less than half of that, with no sign of an increase.

b_lumenkraft

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Re: Tesla glory/failure
« Reply #2010 on: April 15, 2019, 06:14:51 PM »
The margins must be still higher on all other models.

Musk stated cell delivery is insufficient. Of course, they want to sell higher margin cars first. This is only logical from a business standpoint.

Sigmetnow

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Re: Tesla glory/failure
« Reply #2011 on: April 15, 2019, 06:47:04 PM »
—- MUSK RE THE PANASONIC ANNOUNCEMENT AND GIGAFACTORY CELL CONSTRAINTS
Tom Randall (@tsrandall) 4/11/19, 10:46 AM
Tesla shares fell after Nikkei reported that Panasonic is freezing spending on more Gigafactory expansion. Panasonic said it reached 35 GWh/yr capacity in March. That's already enough to build over 500k Model 3/yr+Powerwalls—more than Tesla can handle bloomberg.com/news/articles/…

Elon Musk (@elonmusk) 4/13/19, 3:17 PM
@tsrandall Incorrect. Pana cell lines at Giga are only at ~24GWh/yr & have been a constraint on Model 3 output since July. No choice but to use other suppliers for Powerwall/Powerpack cells. Tesla won’t spend money on more capacity until existing lines get closer to 35GWh theoretical.
https://twitter.com/elonmusk/status/1117144865299501056

Tom Randall (@tsrandall) 4/13/19, 4:56 PM
@elonmusk To be clear, you're saying that Panasonic did not achieve 35 GWh/yr capacity by the end of March as reported and that total Model 3 production in Q1 was limited by cell availability?

Elon Musk (@elonmusk) 4/14/19, 4:42 AM
@tsrandall There is 35 GWh/yr “theoretical capacity”, but actual max output is ~2/3. It was physically impossible to make more Model 3’s in Q1 due to cell constraints.
https://twitter.com/elonmusk/status/1117347290585243648

Elon Musk (@elonmusk) 4/14/19, 4:58 AM
@tsrandall Wow, a lot of people don’t know much about how manufacturing works! If you have peak capacity of X, actual average weekly output will necessarily be less than X. First 6-12 months, it will be much less than X. Impossible to predict exact production ramp S-curve.
https://twitter.com/elonmusk/status/1117351334452142080
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Lurk

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Re: Tesla glory/failure
« Reply #2012 on: April 15, 2019, 06:49:57 PM »
Lunchtime Monday - TSLA still falling $261.68 (as low as $258 10:45am)

Despite April 11 Announcements

TSLA $267.55 after hours Friday.

I'm thinking sub $250 early next week.

Bouncing up and down to $220-230 after Easter week, and / or near the end of April. 


Tesla: On The Verge Of A Technical Breakdown
Summary
I examined the long-term technical outlook for Tesla.
The charts point to Tesla being on the verge of a technical breakdown.
The fundamentals are breaking down at the same time technicals are, which does not bode well for Tesla.
https://seekingalpha.com/article/4254463-tesla-verge-technical-breakdown

Quote

Tesla Model 3 Chaos! Leases, SR And LR Gone, SR+ In The EU, Stealth Price Cuts

Summary
Model 3 SR is eliminated less than 6 weeks after being introduced, purportedly because of low customer interest.

Autopilot is now standard in all Model 3's. As a result, the least expensive Model 3 SR+ now costs $39,500.

Model 3 AWD price increases by $1,000, Performance stays as-is. Since most of these models were sold with Autopilot, this results in a stealth price cut.

Leasing is now available for all Model 3's.

Tesla quietly introduces SR+ into the EU, signaling demand exhaustion after just a few months of AWD and Performance Deliveries.

Late Thursday night, Tesla (TSLA) made significant updates to the Model 3 Lineup, the 4th move in as many months. These include the introduction of the highly anticipated leasing option for Model 3's, elimination of LR RWD and SR RWD models, and the inclusion of Autopilot as standard equipment with corresponding price changes for the SR+ and AWD.

Not included in the announcement, but available on the Tesla configurator is that the SR+ can now be ordered in the EU.

I believe these moves signal that Tesla has hit the demand cliff and is trying to maintain volume any way it can.

https://seekingalpha.com/article/4254500-tesla-model-3-chaos-leases-sr-lr-gone-sr-eu-stealth-price-cuts
“We have time now, ten years, perhaps twenty years, to do something about it. The longer we leave it the more difficult it is going to be and if we leave it too long… the natural system will collapse.”
Sir David Attenborough - April 2019

Sigmetnow

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Re: Tesla glory/failure
« Reply #2013 on: April 15, 2019, 06:55:52 PM »
Quote
When the media talks about Model S and Model X deliveries, which were smaller in Q1 versus Q4, it is again looking at a tree while overlooking that Tesla had its third best quarter in history for all models combined and all of these three best quarters happened to be in the last 9 months (the last three quarters). The forest has grown significantly in that short period. To look at just a month or even a quarter is too short a time to evaluate the company, but if you want to pick that period, you have to at least take that month a year ago or that quarter a year ago to compare and assess — as the auto industry is a seasonal business that goes up and down like the weather does through the four seasons. What these analysts are doing is akin to comparing the average temperature in summer with the one in winter and calling the winter a big miss.
https://cleantechnica.com/2019/04/14/the-mystery-of-tesla-model-3-demand/


Musk Says Tesla Will Make Astonishing 500,000 Cars In Next 12 Months
Quote
Let’s take a look at the production rate – Tesla’s 12-months rolling output was at the end of March 2019 at around 297,000, including over 206,000 Tesla Model 3. Sales during the period amounted to about 280,000.
To achieve 500,000 in 12 months, Tesla needs to produce and sell at least 125,000 cars per quarter. The automaker’s production record was 86,555 in Q4 2018. In Q1 2019 production was 77,100, including a record 29,950 Model 3.
The increase from almost 300,000 to 500,000+ requires growth of about 67% year-over-year. Assuming that the Model S/Model X will stay at around 100,000 per year, Model 3 production and sales need to double to 400,000 per year.

If Tesla does manage to produce and sell 500,000 per year, and additionally significantly increase the revenues because of the autonomous driving capability, profitability should reach high levels. The FSD option is sold for $5,000 per car and is expected to be priced higher in the near future.
Just 100,000 cars (20% of planned) with the $5,000 option for robot taxi alone would provide $500 million of revenue.
https://insideevs.com/musk-says-tesla-will-make-500000-cars-in-next-12-months/amp/
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Sigmetnow

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Re: Tesla glory/failure
« Reply #2014 on: April 15, 2019, 06:59:00 PM »
Tesla (TSLA) to hold Q1 2019 financial results and earnings call on April 24
Quote
What is rather interesting is that Tesla is conducting its Q1 earnings call earlier than expected. Tesla usually releases its first-quarter earnings call in early May, as could be seen in the date of Q1 2018’s Q&A session. The company previously held earlier-than-expected earnings calls in October 2016, October 2018, and January 2019, and those quarters all proved to be profitable.

It should be noted that while the early date of Q1’s earnings call is a rather bullish sign, Elon Musk himself has been very conservative about the first quarter. When Tesla launched the $35,000 Standard Model 3 in March, Elon Musk noted that he does not expect the company to be profitable in the first quarter. “Given that there is a lot happening in Q1, and we are taking a lot of one time charges, there are a lot of challenges getting cars to China and Europe, we do not expect to be profitable. We do think that profitability in Q2 is likely,” the Tesla CEO said.
https://www.teslarati.com/tesla-tsla-q1-2019-earnings-call-date/

Quote
ValueAnalyst (@ValueAnalyst1) 4/14/19, 3:36 PM
It's been 45 days since $TSLA paid off $920 million for convertible bonds in cash, and it's yet to file for bankruptcy as $TSLAQ long predicted.

Go figure
https://twitter.com/valueanalyst1/status/1117511861786877952

———

Tesla’s inclusion of Autopilot on every car unravels a long-term Full Self-Driving strategy
https://www.teslarati.com/tesla-autopilot-on-every-car-full-self-driving-strategy/

—-
Why Tesla Defines American Luxury, Not Cadillac or Lincoln
The soul of new American luxury is in California, not Detroit   
https://www.motortrend.com/news/why-tesla-defines-american-luxury-not-cadillac-lincoln/
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oren

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Re: Tesla glory/failure
« Reply #2015 on: April 15, 2019, 09:23:05 PM »
Quote
So, summarising, what you got instead of the promised $35K base Model 3 is actually the $39,500 base Model 3, which Tesla has simply renamed as - Standard Range Plus Model 3
The base model disappeared, but the SR+ is not the base model - its range is 240 miles instead of 220, and it includes Autopilot which the base model did not.

Quote
What I don't understand, is how the 35K Model 3 isn't profitable. I mean, didn't that Munro guy and some Germans take the car apart and estimate the cost of production, which was substantially lower than 35K?
I think at $35k it doesn't have negative margin, but it cannot support Tesla's high expense rate: sales stores, service costs, supercharger costs, referral program. Some of these they attempted to cut or improve, but it didn't help enough and now they are caught between a rock and a hard place. I believe the gamble they made is that people will stretch themselves to $39.5k and that volumes will be sufficient to support a profit. We will see how it plays out.

Lurk

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Re: Tesla glory/failure
« Reply #2016 on: April 16, 2019, 03:10:04 AM »
TSLA is holding a Zacks Rank of #5 (Strong Sell) right now.

In terms of valuation, TSLA is currently trading at a Forward P/E ratio of 45.22. Its industry sports an average Forward P/E of 10.97, so we one might conclude that TSLA is trading at a premium comparatively.
https://www.zacks.com/stock/news/381039/tesla-tsla-dips-more-than-broader-markets-what-you-should-know
“We have time now, ten years, perhaps twenty years, to do something about it. The longer we leave it the more difficult it is going to be and if we leave it too long… the natural system will collapse.”
Sir David Attenborough - April 2019

Lurk

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Re: Tesla glory/failure
« Reply #2017 on: April 16, 2019, 03:23:32 AM »
Quote
So, summarising, what you got instead of the promised $35K base Model 3 is actually the $39,500 base Model 3, which Tesla has simply renamed as - Standard Range Plus Model 3
The base model disappeared, but the SR+ is not the base model - its range is 240 miles instead of 220, and it includes Autopilot which the base model did not.


Maybe review the April 11 announcement. I already reviewed this above in several messages.

1) The so called "base model" did not disappear. You can buy one by contacting the stores or phoning. They only deleted it from the Online Ordering process

2) Tesla announced All Models 3s now come with AutoPilot. That would include the so called "base Model" otherwise Tesla is again putting out disinformation, therefore it costs $37,000, not $35,000

3) The point being (obviously) the so called "base model"  is the exact same EV as the $39,500 Standard Range Plus Model 3 with some software tweaks.

4) Tesla didn't spend the last 18 months to 2 years designing and then building TWO different Standard Model EVs - they are the very same car!!!

5) But there is no $35K "base model" Model 3 - that is and was always a con - aka disinformation to the market!

6) Elon Musk and Tesla have "lied" yet again, obviously.

It's only complicated because Tesla has been making it seem complicated as they intentionally 'phuck' with people's heads to confuse them. Consider yourself confused?
 
Quote
What I don't understand, is how the 35K Model 3 isn't profitable. I mean, didn't that Munro guy and some Germans take the car apart and estimate the cost of production, which was substantially lower than 35K?
Quote
I think at $35k it doesn't have negative margin, but it cannot support Tesla's high expense rate: sales stores, service costs, supercharger costs, referral program. Some of these they attempted to cut or improve, but it didn't help enough and now they are caught between a rock and a hard place. I believe the gamble they made is that people will stretch themselves to $39.5k and that volumes will be sufficient to support a profit. We will see how it plays out.

iow they lied ... right?

Misinformed the market for 18 months and then failed to deliver (again).

When exactly did Tesla ever advise the Market they were going to offer a "base Model 3 for $35K" and a "base model 3 PLUS" with a different power configuration?

Never. Until April 11 2019

When did Tesla advise the Market that they were going to automatically make AutoPilot standard and add $2000 to every Model 3?

Never. Until April 11 2019

Review the reviews above and check the History going back 18 months of their "announcements/promises/tweets". Or do what most people do ... don't waste your time, label others as 'biased' because they brak the consensus belief system ... iow just ignore the past facts, and create a whole new reality out of nothing based solely on what Tesla says yesterday and today and tomorrow. 

Tesla itself is the rock and the hard place rolled into one. Bordering on grossly incompetent management and incompetent at lying as well. It will Fail because the Board and Mngt are failing badly.
« Last Edit: April 16, 2019, 03:39:13 AM by Lurk »
“We have time now, ten years, perhaps twenty years, to do something about it. The longer we leave it the more difficult it is going to be and if we leave it too long… the natural system will collapse.”
Sir David Attenborough - April 2019

Lurk

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Re: Tesla glory/failure
« Reply #2018 on: April 16, 2019, 03:45:00 AM »
Tesla is to EVs what Uber is to Ridesharing, what Enron was to Energy, what Countrywide was to Home Buying, and what Maddoff was to brilliant investment Gurus.

Basically, the IPO prospectus is a complete misrepresentation of reality and should have multiple people being jailed/disbarred immediately for intentionally misleading investors. Mixing operating revenues with one off sale gains etc....
https://forum.arctic-sea-ice.net/index.php/topic,438.msg195517.html#msg195517
“We have time now, ten years, perhaps twenty years, to do something about it. The longer we leave it the more difficult it is going to be and if we leave it too long… the natural system will collapse.”
Sir David Attenborough - April 2019

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Re: Tesla glory/failure
« Reply #2019 on: April 16, 2019, 04:24:00 AM »


Can I add the fact, that from the get go, the "base Model 3" always needed to be built with the hardware & computer capacity to accommodate the AutoPilot system.

To now insist that AutoPilot is to be a "standard inclusion" on all model variations does not cost Tesla one extra penny for the added $2,000 sale price they now demand for it. It's only software. It's also only software that is limiting "the fake" $37K base Model 3 too!

No different than Tweaking how many channels you get with your Fox Cable package.

What Tesla have done is to remove one the Choices that Purchasers used to have, thus making it more expensive to buy every Model 3 Tesla EV.
“We have time now, ten years, perhaps twenty years, to do something about it. The longer we leave it the more difficult it is going to be and if we leave it too long… the natural system will collapse.”
Sir David Attenborough - April 2019

crandles

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Re: Tesla glory/failure
« Reply #2020 on: April 16, 2019, 04:30:52 PM »
Musk tweeted
Quote
Very much so. There are 2.5B cars & trucks on Earth. Even replacing 1% of that fleet would require making 25M vehicles per year. Tesla will make over 500k cars in next 12 months, but that’s a mere 2% of 25M or 0.02% of global vehicle fleet. Car industry slow -> demand >> supply.

A problem for SEC negotiations?
Or is it just deriving an approximate 0.02% figure/talking in general terms?
Or is it just a different period perhaps 1 May 2019 to 30 April 2020 rather than calendar year of 2019 and as this is likely to include more time with China factory working, it is logical to expect more production....
Or .... ?

Even with deriving approx 0.02% figure and expecting more in a later period, the 500k still seems optimistic and seems like it might be seen as positive news by investors.

What are the chances that Musk got this tweet reviewed? Low , I imagine.

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Re: Tesla glory/failure
« Reply #2021 on: April 16, 2019, 04:52:52 PM »
Volkswagen to Ramp up Production of Electric SUV in China
Zacks Equity Research April 16, 2019

Volkswagen AG has revealed that it plans to build fully-electric sports utility vehicles for China, the largest car market of the world, per Reuters. 

Also, the proposed launch of the fully-electric vehicles by Volkswagen in China from 2021 is aimed at competing with Tesla, Inc.’s Model X.

Volkswagen’s chief executive officer, Herbert Diess claims that ID ROOMZ will be the key electric vehicle to be launched in China. A team of engineers is working on ID ROOMZ and the company intends to produce over 22 million electric vehicles in the next decade.

[ not starting until 2021 = 2.75 million / yr ]

Also, Volkswagen and its Audi brand will combine R&D operations in China to improve the research and development capabilities.

Thomas Ulbrich, the head of e-mobility of Volkswagen stated that by mid-2023, it will start ramping up the production of 33 electric vehicles. The company will use VW Group’s modular electric car (“MEB”) platform to build electric cars for VW, Skoda, Seat and Audi brands.

In order to increase the mass production of electric vehicles, VW Group is converting 16 factories across the globe.

Shares of Volkswagen have outperformed the industry it belongs to in the past three months. Over this time frame, it has gained 7.4% against the industry’s decline of 2%.

[ TSLA shares down 22% last 3 mths ]

https://www.zacks.com/stock/news/381493/volkswagen-to-ramp-up-production-of-electric-suv-in-china

It's only a plan not a reality, and yet ..........
“We have time now, ten years, perhaps twenty years, to do something about it. The longer we leave it the more difficult it is going to be and if we leave it too long… the natural system will collapse.”
Sir David Attenborough - April 2019

oren

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Re: Tesla glory/failure
« Reply #2022 on: April 16, 2019, 04:55:36 PM »
Very good. Hopefully it comes to pass, sooner rather than later.

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Re: Tesla glory/failure
« Reply #2023 on: April 16, 2019, 09:34:19 PM »
Musk tweeted
Quote
Very much so. There are 2.5B cars & trucks on Earth. Even replacing 1% of that fleet would require making 25M vehicles per year. Tesla will make over 500k cars in next 12 months, but that’s a mere 2% of 25M or 0.02% of global vehicle fleet. Car industry slow -> demand >> supply.

A problem for SEC negotiations?
Or is it just deriving an approximate 0.02% figure/talking in general terms?
Or is it just a different period perhaps 1 May 2019 to 30 April 2020 rather than calendar year of 2019 and as this is likely to include more time with China factory working, it is logical to expect more production....
Or .... ?

Even with deriving approx 0.02% figure and expecting more in a later period, the 500k still seems optimistic and seems like it might be seen as positive news by investors.

What are the chances that Musk got this tweet reviewed? Low , I imagine.

Musk meant what he wrote.  He’s also said it in interviews lately, IIRC, so this is not new information. :)

Consider:
Quote
StatsTesla (@StatsTesla) 4/15/19, 3:42 AM
Q1-19: 77K production
Q2-19: 93K (est)
Q3-19: 109K (est)
Q4-19: 125K (est)
Q1-20: 173K (est)

With these numbers, the total for 2019 will be 404K and 500K for the next 12 months. GF3 needs to produce about 50K cars in Q1-20, or 3850 per week.
https://twitter.com/statstesla/status/1117694705150697473
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Re: Tesla glory/failure
« Reply #2024 on: April 17, 2019, 12:33:47 PM »
well, predicting a year in the future when ramping up production, at more than 1 location, gives enough time to have an excuse like "we had some setbacks"

And I think if all the pieces fit together, demand isn't an issue and they don't run out of cash, they can manage it. But they shouldn't have to much setbacks

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Re: Tesla glory/failure
« Reply #2025 on: April 17, 2019, 02:19:41 PM »
Demand stories
Quote
Ret34 (@ThoughtsbyGabe) 4/15/19, 2:20 PM
Just ordered my @Tesla Performance Model 3. So excited and happy that Tesla and @elonmusk opened up the leasing market on this model. As you can see this was a reservation conversion from a couple of years back. I expect other serial leasers will do the same!
https://twitter.com/thoughtsbygabe/status/1117855213488988162
(Screen cap at the link: trade-in is a 2018 Toyota Camry.)
———
Quote
007 (@TrendTrader007) 4/14/19, 4:49 PM
And the demand is huge. I kid you not within the last week I’ve had at least 5 total strangers stop me and ask about my Tesla and I’ve spent several minutes answering all their questions. Shorts and skeptics have no idea-Tesla is a worldwide under the radar phenomenon ….
https://twitter.com/trendtrader007/status/1117530314908360704

About Toyota’s non-plug-in hybrid “self-charging” ::) ads:
Quote
Robert Llewellyn (@bobbyllew) 4/15/19, 3:41 AM
Yesterday a woman asked me if my car was electric. I said 'yes.' She then asked 'is it one of those new self charging ones?'
She was a sensible, well educated person who's not interested in cars, after my brief explanation she said, 'so the advert is a lie.'
I said 'Yes.'
https://twitter.com/bobbyllew/status/1117694460140425216

Quote
Tesla Driver  (@m_xalher) 4/16/19, 12:57 PM
MAJOR @Tesla demand catalyst in Europe: Gas savings
Petrol is very costly here. Norway: NOK 17/liter (USD 7.8/gallon). Electricity cost moderate
Model 3 gas savings abt USD 18,000 in first 5 years
SR+ pays for itself in 10-12 yrs by GAS SAVINGS ALONE
https://twitter.com/m_xalher/status/1118196640261787650
 Screen cap of Tesla gas savings screen in Norwegian at the link.

Tesla Driver  (@m_xalher) 4/17/19, 3:44 AM
Price of petrol now above NOK 17/liter”. News from Norway’s e24.no today. 
https://twitter.com/m_xalher/status/1118419976413642752
Screen cap of story headline at the link.

——- ‘Tis the season for gas price hikes in the US, as refiners switch to more expensive summer blends.  Also, more refineries are off-line than usual this year.
Quote
Serious Callers Only (@EthicsGradient) 4/15/19, 11:52 AM
Gas prices in San Diego now.
https://twitter.com/ethicsgradient/status/1117817959706021889
Photo at the link: $4.35 to $4.55/gallon
Quote
Dr. Joel Murray (@JRMurray) 4/16/19, 2:22 AM
@EthicsGradient Highest gas prices in North America here in Greater Vancouver, Canada: $1.699 per litre = $6.43 per US gallon. Glad I drive a #Model3
https://twitter.com/jrmurray/status/1118037028887613440

California Gas Prices Climb 50 Cents in 1 Month Ahead of Gas Tax Increase Slated for Summer
Quote
DeHaan forecasts the average price in California will hit $4 for a gallon of regular gasoline by the end of this week — something no state has experienced in nearly the past five years.
https://ktla.com/2019/04/08/california-gas-prices-climb-50-cents-in-1-month-ahead-of-gas-tax-increase-slated-for-summer/

—- Below:  the changing of the guard for the perceived “green car” of choice in the US.
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Archimid

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Re: Tesla glory/failure
« Reply #2026 on: April 17, 2019, 03:52:10 PM »
Definitely a glory

I am an energy reservoir seemingly intent on lowering entropy for self preservation.

Lurk

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“We have time now, ten years, perhaps twenty years, to do something about it. The longer we leave it the more difficult it is going to be and if we leave it too long… the natural system will collapse.”
Sir David Attenborough - April 2019

Lurk

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Re: Tesla glory/failure
« Reply #2028 on: Today at 02:02:42 AM »
Summary

Tesla and Panasonic are having a public spat over Gigafactory production yields, which has led to weakness in Tesla's share price, yet caused Panasonic's stock to rally.

This crisis erupted last Thursday when Panasonic aired its grievances with Tesla to the Japanese media. We have never seen a supplier go after a top customer in public before.

Tesla has $15.7bn in purchase obligations to Panasonic from 2019. Panasonic could walk away with a $2bn write-off in its Gigafactory investment, which is only 11% of its shareholders' equity.

Tesla would see huge disruption to its growth prospects if Panasonic calls it quits and takes its cell lines back to Japan or China.

Instead of mollifying the situation, Elon Musk fought back on Twitter in response, which raises the stakes of a split up with Panasonic, Tesla's most important supplier.

https://seekingalpha.com/article/4255067-tesla-panasonic-relationship-rocks-poses-risks
« Last Edit: Today at 02:16:37 AM by Lurk »
“We have time now, ten years, perhaps twenty years, to do something about it. The longer we leave it the more difficult it is going to be and if we leave it too long… the natural system will collapse.”
Sir David Attenborough - April 2019

Lurk

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Re: Tesla glory/failure
« Reply #2029 on: Today at 02:16:17 AM »
These days, the only plausible justification for vehicle electrification is reduced CO2 emissions, but that justification is more smoke and mirrors than substance.

Since investing in smoke and mirrors is rarely successful in the long term, this article highlights the grave intellectual flaws in sustainability myths fabricated by Tesla (TSLA) and explains why its long-range Model 3 has a heavier CO2 footprint than Toyota's (TM) humble but highly efficient Camry Hybrid.

The Model 3 and the Camry Hybrid are both classified as mid-size cars

The long-range Model 3 and the Camry Hybrid are both classified as "mid-size cars" in the US and "D Segment cars" in Europe. My first table summarizes the salient details.

https://seekingalpha.com/article/4254995-teslas-long-range-model-3-heavier-co2-footprint-toyotas-camry-hybrid

Thank god for analysts and internet refs by experts hey? Where would we be without them? Totally lost obviously! :)
“We have time now, ten years, perhaps twenty years, to do something about it. The longer we leave it the more difficult it is going to be and if we leave it too long… the natural system will collapse.”
Sir David Attenborough - April 2019

Lurk

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Re: Tesla glory/failure
« Reply #2030 on: Today at 02:20:03 AM »
Off Topic?

Demand stories
Quote
Ret34 (@ThoughtsbyGabe) 4/15/19, 2:20 PM
Just ordered my @Tesla Performance Model 3. So excited and happy that Tesla and @elonmusk opened up the leasing market on this model. As you can see this was a reservation conversion from a couple of years back. I expect other serial leasers will do the same!
https://twitter.com/thoughtsbygabe/status/1117855213488988162
(Screen cap at the link: trade-in is a 2018 Toyota Camry.)
———
Quote
007 (@TrendTrader007) 4/14/19, 4:49 PM
And the demand is huge. I kid you not within the last week I’ve had at least 5 total strangers stop me and ask about my Tesla and I’ve spent several minutes answering all their questions. Shorts and skeptics have no idea-Tesla is a worldwide under the radar phenomenon ….
https://twitter.com/trendtrader007/status/1117530314908360704

About Toyota’s non-plug-in hybrid “self-charging” ::) ads:
Quote
Robert Llewellyn (@bobbyllew) 4/15/19, 3:41 AM
Yesterday a woman asked me if my car was electric. I said 'yes.' She then asked 'is it one of those new self charging ones?'
She was a sensible, well educated person who's not interested in cars, after my brief explanation she said, 'so the advert is a lie.'
I said 'Yes.'
https://twitter.com/bobbyllew/status/1117694460140425216

Quote
Tesla Driver  (@m_xalher) 4/16/19, 12:57 PM
MAJOR @Tesla demand catalyst in Europe: Gas savings
Petrol is very costly here. Norway: NOK 17/liter (USD 7.8/gallon). Electricity cost moderate
Model 3 gas savings abt USD 18,000 in first 5 years
SR+ pays for itself in 10-12 yrs by GAS SAVINGS ALONE
https://twitter.com/m_xalher/status/1118196640261787650
 Screen cap of Tesla gas savings screen in Norwegian at the link.

Tesla Driver  (@m_xalher) 4/17/19, 3:44 AM
Price of petrol now above NOK 17/liter”. News from Norway’s e24.no today. 
https://twitter.com/m_xalher/status/1118419976413642752
Screen cap of story headline at the link.

——- ‘Tis the season for gas price hikes in the US, as refiners switch to more expensive summer blends.  Also, more refineries are off-line than usual this year.
Quote
Serious Callers Only (@EthicsGradient) 4/15/19, 11:52 AM
Gas prices in San Diego now.
https://twitter.com/ethicsgradient/status/1117817959706021889
Photo at the link: $4.35 to $4.55/gallon
Quote
Dr. Joel Murray (@JRMurray) 4/16/19, 2:22 AM
@EthicsGradient Highest gas prices in North America here in Greater Vancouver, Canada: $1.699 per litre = $6.43 per US gallon. Glad I drive a #Model3
https://twitter.com/jrmurray/status/1118037028887613440

California Gas Prices Climb 50 Cents in 1 Month Ahead of Gas Tax Increase Slated for Summer
Quote
DeHaan forecasts the average price in California will hit $4 for a gallon of regular gasoline by the end of this week — something no state has experienced in nearly the past five years.
https://ktla.com/2019/04/08/california-gas-prices-climb-50-cents-in-1-month-ahead-of-gas-tax-increase-slated-for-summer/

—- Below:  the changing of the guard for the perceived “green car” of choice in the US.

Wondering if Twitter quotes by Tesla car owners qualifies as ... "This thread is to be used for the most part to post articles that Tesla Inc. is either successfully implementing its business model, or that it's failing to do so. " declared Mr Neven

original ref:
https://forum.arctic-sea-ice.net/index.php/topic,2406.msg172665.html#msg172665

 :o
“We have time now, ten years, perhaps twenty years, to do something about it. The longer we leave it the more difficult it is going to be and if we leave it too long… the natural system will collapse.”
Sir David Attenborough - April 2019

GoSouthYoungins

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Re: Tesla glory/failure
« Reply #2031 on: Today at 04:58:42 AM »
Definitely a glory



Does it matter to you that most of that electricity generated gets rejected and is a total waste?

Does it matter to you that only a sliver of that electricity is in the form that can be used to manufacture things (like cars)?

Does it matter to you that countries that have added significant solar capacity have not significantly decreased their fossil fuel consumption?

It is a failure. Plain and simple.

And Tesla will soon be a chapter 7 super duper failure.
big time oops

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Re: Tesla glory/failure
« Reply #2032 on: Today at 01:57:45 PM »
Quote
Does it matter to you that most of that electricity generated gets rejected and is a total waste?

Does it matter to you that only a sliver of that electricity is in the form that can be used to manufacture things (like cars)?

Does it matter to you that countries that have added significant solar capacity have not significantly decreased their fossil fuel consumption?

Yes, yes, and yes, but none of it takes away from Tesla's glory.
I am an energy reservoir seemingly intent on lowering entropy for self preservation.

Sigmetnow

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Re: Tesla glory/failure
« Reply #2033 on: Today at 02:09:37 PM »
Addressing Tesla’s rise from a niche electric car maker to a company that is now attempting to breach the mass market, Keogh stated that “we have not seen in the history of the auto business, a company going from zero to fourth place in luxury in a matter of a few years.”
- Scott Keogh, the chief executive officer of Volkswagen AG’s US unit

“On electrification, we see an opportunity in North America, but it’s much further down the road. The average vehicle today costs $34,000 and for many EVs, the battery costs $34,000.”
- Toyota Motor Corp. executive vice president of sales Bob Carter.

Tesla Model 3 becomes focal point of EV debate between VW and Toyota
https://www.teslarati.com/tesla-model-3-debate-vw-toyota/

——-
Audi lowers 2019 EV production forecast by 10,000 cars. Europe car sales sink for 7th straight month.
https://forum.arctic-sea-ice.net/index.php/topic,438.msg195960.html#msg195960

——
Tesla Impact Report: 4 million tons of CO2 saved, 13.25 TWh solar electricity generated
https://www.teslarati.com/tesla-impact-report-2018-results/

Read Tesla’s full Impact Report here:  https://www.tesla.com/ns_videos/tesla-impact-report-2019.pdf

—-
Wow. Tesla bears are so deranged, they recommend drivers commit aggressive actions near the FSD cars, risking a catastrophe.  Proving another way in which human drivers are more dangerous than autonomy.  (Besides inattention, distraction, falling asleep at the wheel, etc.)

Tesla CEO Elon Musk’s views on Full Self-Driving safety get validated by TSLA bears
https://www.teslarati.com/tesla-elon-musk-full-self-driving-tsla-bears-autonomy-investor-day/
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Re: Tesla glory/failure
« Reply #2034 on: Today at 02:49:49 PM »
Quote
 The average vehicle today costs $34,000 and for many EVs, the battery costs $34,000.”
This claim is so ridiculous it hurts my brain. EV batteries even at the pack level cost about $150-200/kWh, and even less for Tesla or anybody who bothers to mass-produce them.

sedziobs

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Re: Tesla glory/failure
« Reply #2035 on: Today at 03:24:22 PM »
Quote
The average vehicle today costs $34,000 and for many EVs, the battery costs $34,000.”
This claim is so ridiculous it hurts my brain. EV batteries even at the pack level cost about $150-200/kWh, and even less for Tesla or anybody who bothers to mass-produce them.
Obviously there must be "many EVs" with 170 kWh battery packs. ;)

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Re: Tesla glory/failure
« Reply #2036 on: Today at 03:42:16 PM »
Quote
The average vehicle today costs $34,000 and for many EVs, the battery costs $34,000.”
This claim is so ridiculous it hurts my brain. EV batteries even at the pack level cost about $150-200/kWh, and even less for Tesla or anybody who bothers to mass-produce them.

Well, Toyota is the same company who spends million$ for ads calling their non-plug-in hybrids “self-charging,” so truth about EVs is definitely not a priority for them. 
Or perhaps because of their all-in bet on hydrogen, they are so far behind that the billions they would need to spend acquiring the resources they need to build a battery factory for the limited number of EVs they could produce would amount to around $34,000 a car.  The world’s current EV battery capacity is tapped out — for example, Audi just announced they will be short 10,000 cars this year due lack of batteries.
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Re: Tesla glory/failure
« Reply #2037 on: Today at 03:43:15 PM »
Tesla's Impact Report gets nod of respect from corporate sustainability firm
Quote
Trillium Asset Management, a firm that tracks corporate sustainability, stated that Tesla’s Impact Report went beyond superficial metrics. Allan Pearce, a shareholder advocate at Trillium, took particular notice of the company’s inclusion of its full greenhouse gas footprint, a metric that is rarely covered in first-time reports. “With any first report there’s always going to be room for improvement, though this is kind of a step above most first sustainability reports we see,” Pearce said.
...
The results of Tesla’s first impact report revealed an encouraging picture of a young company that is working hard to achieve the very ambitious goal of accelerating the world’s transition to sustainable energy. The report covered several important points, including the amount of C02 saved by the company’s fleet of all-electric cars. With around 550,000 vehicles on the road since the days of the original Tesla Roadster, the company noted that its zero-emissions fleet has driven over 10 billion miles to date, helping prevent more than 4 million tons of C02 from polluting the environment ...
https://www.teslarati.com/tesla-environmental-impact-report-corporate-sustainability-review/
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Re: Tesla glory/failure
« Reply #2038 on: Today at 03:44:33 PM »
Quote
Does it matter to you that most of that electricity generated gets rejected and is a total waste?

Does it matter to you that only a sliver of that electricity is in the form that can be used to manufacture things (like cars)?

Does it matter to you that countries that have added significant solar capacity have not significantly decreased their fossil fuel consumption?

Yes, yes, and yes, but none of it takes away from Tesla's glory.

Quote
Does it matter to you that most of that electricity generated gets rejected and is a total waste?

Does it matter to you that only a sliver of that electricity is in the form that can be used to manufacture things (like cars)?

Does it matter to you that countries that have added significant solar capacity have not significantly decreased their fossil fuel consumption?

Yes, yes, and yes, but none of it takes away from Tesla's glory.

call that merits instead of glory and +1 while i understood of course what you were saying and agree. the merits of tesla for a change, away from fuel burning, carbon heavy mudslingers can't seriously be disputed/denied.

if this thread were for this i wouldn't have said one word, but it's about whether the company will prevail or cease to exist in one day in a not too far future and my opinion on that i've mentioned.

of course i'm aware that there are no certainties, only probabilities based on business/financial standards and mechanisms that have proven relevant in the past till this very day.
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sedziobs

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Re: Tesla glory/failure
« Reply #2039 on: Today at 03:52:01 PM »
These days, the only plausible justification for vehicle electrification is reduced CO2 emissions, but that justification is more smoke and mirrors than substance.

Since investing in smoke and mirrors is rarely successful in the long term, this article highlights the grave intellectual flaws in sustainability myths fabricated by Tesla (TSLA) and explains why its long-range Model 3 has a heavier CO2 footprint than Toyota's (TM) humble but highly efficient Camry Hybrid.

The Model 3 and the Camry Hybrid are both classified as mid-size cars

The long-range Model 3 and the Camry Hybrid are both classified as "mid-size cars" in the US and "D Segment cars" in Europe. My first table summarizes the salient details.

https://seekingalpha.com/article/4254995-teslas-long-range-model-3-heavier-co2-footprint-toyotas-camry-hybrid

Thank god for analysts and internet refs by experts hey? Where would we be without them? Totally lost obviously! :)
Is it so bad that a Model 3 has a carbon footprint comparable to the most efficient hybrids?

Even so, getting to that conclusion requires some interesting assumptions, such as this one:
Quote
The marginal fuel to charge an EV anywhere in the US will always be natural gas; and while increased renewables may improve grid average emissions, they cannot change the marginal fuel source for EV charging.

According to the US Energy Information Agency, natural gas turbines emit 599.8 grams of CO2 per kWh while more efficient combined cycle plants emit 512.4 grams of CO2 per kWh. Since combined cycle plants typically operate as baseload facilities and gas turbines typically fill the gaps between baseload and demand, I believe 600 grams of CO2 per kWh is the best figure to use for EV charging analysis.
He seems to think that baseload cannot be used for EV charging, and so he ignores all renewable energy. I find this ironic because the argument against renewables for so long was that it can't be used as baseload. Increasing EV adoption will surely increase baseload demands and supplies over the long run, which will be made up of a greater proportion of renewables as time goes on.  The author even says that most EV charging is done overnight (when marginal use is lowest), but then proceeds to argue that only marginal natural gas is used to power EVs.

Although just one anecdote, my personal situation is a counterexample to his claims. I have solar panels on my roof that cover electricity demand for my home and Model 3 over a year. In my state, we are not allowed to put more electricity onto the grid than we pull from the grid in a year, so I would not have been able to install as many panels without the Model 3.  In my case, the marginal increase in electricity demand has been filled by renewable energy.  I think my case may serve as a microcosm for the national grid's future.

Archimid

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Re: Tesla glory/failure
« Reply #2040 on: Today at 04:19:58 PM »
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Is it so bad that a Model 3 has a carbon footprint comparable to the most efficient hybrids?

That is the conclusion he reaches only after picking cherries. A Model 3 (or any EV) powered by sunlight /wind has zero emissions. A model 3 powered by gas has about the emission of one of the most efficient ICE vehicles in the market, but only if one ignores the emissions of producing new oil with fracking and ignores the initial CO2 expenditure of the Camry as that liar did.

As the Grid greens with the most cost effective new energy (solar/wind) The average efficiency of EVs will increase while the average efficiency of Camry will decrease. So even in the worst of cases the Model 3's emission will decrease while the Camry's emissions will increase.

These shorts will destroy the world if it earns them a few pennies.
I am an energy reservoir seemingly intent on lowering entropy for self preservation.