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Sigmetnow

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Re: Tesla glory/failure
« Reply #3650 on: September 22, 2019, 04:48:29 PM »
LG Chem mass producing NCM cyclical batteries for Tesla
Quote
LG Chem has begun to mass produce batteries for Tesla’s Model 3 electric vehicles from its Nanjing plant in China, according to industry sources Sept. 18.
The US-based EV maker will be using LG Chem’ 21700 type batteries using NCM811 that boast a nickel proportion of 80% or more. The LG company previously supplied the NCM811 to electric buses. This is the first time to supply an automobile, the sources said.

Upon requests from Tesla, LG Chem is now preparing to expand its battery lines. Already, it has doubled the production volume from its Nanjing plant from last year. Nanjing is where LG said in January this year that it would invest up to 1.2 trillion won to expand the facilities.
According to market research firm SNE Research, LG Chem is expected to churn out up to 1 billion cylindrical battery cells per year from Nanjing. In 2017, the firm was producing 630 million such cells.
http://en.thelec.kr/news/articleView.html?idxno=512

====
Will Tesla outperform the competition at the Nürburgring when official lap times are run?

Porsche fans are affronted at Tesla’s gall to try showing superiority to the Porsche brand, known for decades for its fast, sporty cars.  They point out that the Taycan testing at the track recently was a Turbo, not the higher-end Turbo S.  Which begs the question:  why?  If a brand’s objective is to impress on the track, why not use the best model?  When asked about this, a Porsche VP declined to answer.

Tesla Has No Business Being At The Nurburgring | CarBuzz
https://carbuzz.com/features/tesla-has-no-business-being-at-the-nurburgring

Porsche Could Be Trolling Tesla At The Nurburgring | CarBuzz
https://carbuzz.com/news/porsche-could-be-trolling-tesla-at-the-nurburgring
   
—-
Tesla Daily unofficial podcast.  The Nurburgring discussion starts around 8:30
https://techcastdaily.com/2019/09/19/iihs-top-safety-pick-model-3-in-the-netherlands-europe-check-in-latest-from-gf3-nurburgring-09-18-19/

—-
Quote
Hjörtur Brynjarsson (@HjorturBrynjars) 9/21/19, 7:12 AM
My 5yr old son saw a gray @Tesla 3 drive by. I said nothing. He stared at it gracefully glide by and..
Kid: "I'm gonna [buy] myself this kind of car when I get big!"
Me: "Why?"
Kid: "because it looks like a sports car!!"
@elonmusk & @woodhaus2 got the 3 "instinctively" right!
https://twitter.com/hjorturbrynjars/status/1175367154348281857
- And before you go there.... this really happened.
People who say it cannot be done should not interrupt those who are doing it.

GoSouthYoungins

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Re: Tesla glory/failure
« Reply #3651 on: September 23, 2019, 02:10:37 PM »
“We are a wave of change. Together and united, we are unstoppable. This is what people power looks like. We will rise to the challenge."

Does anyone here disagree with that ?

I disagree with it.

It is a nice idea, but there is no substance. The movement doesn't know what it is asking for, much less how to achieve it.

If a bunch of people decided to march against greed, would do anything substantive to change the world? How about a march against cancer? March against hate? March against imperfection?

Harsh Truth

Renewable energy is less than 5% of total. But that statistic becomes less rosy when examined closer...

Most renewable is traditional biofuels. The amount of fossil fuel energy used to create these biofuels are roughly equal to the biofuel energy. In other words, the whole thing is totally futile.

Meanwhile a quarter of renewable energy is hydro power. Hydro from damning rivers comes with it's own ecological issues, but in general it is a really awesome and reliable way to generate power. Problem is, pretty much every good damn site has been used. Big rivers are by far the best candidates for hydro, and there are only so many big rivers. So hydro is great, but limited.

So whats left is a sliver of energy which comes from solar and wind. Probably about 1% of total energy. Yikes.


The UN expects the world to consume 50% more energy by 2035. Is the 1% supposed to grow enough to take over from the other 99% plus an extra 50% in the next 15 years?

Are people aware that the 1% requires huge up front energy costs, and are a net negative vs fossil fuels for at least the first several years of function?!?


Nobody has a real plan for getting off fossil fuels and keeping modern society from collapsing.

The best hope would be to burn only about a quarter of what we do now by taxing fossil fuels very steeply, and by paying for agricultural based sequestration.  The transformation would take decades (probably 20-50 years).

The idea that we need to get off fossil fuels by 2030 is just childish naivety. That it makes sense to a 16 year old year old girl is no surprise. That neoliberal educated-adults is the first world think it is brilliant is pathetic.
big time oops

nukefix

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Re: Tesla glory/failure
« Reply #3652 on: September 23, 2019, 03:24:26 PM »
Shorties got nothing.
Where are the profits? If Tesla cannot generate profits, it does not matter that the cars are excellent.
« Last Edit: September 23, 2019, 03:38:30 PM by nukefix »

cognitivebias2

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Re: Tesla glory/failure
« Reply #3653 on: September 23, 2019, 04:35:06 PM »
Shorties got nothing.
Where are the profits? If Tesla cannot generate profits, it does not matter that the cars are excellent.

Sounds like an AMZN argument from about 5 years ago.   Of course the stock price is up 400% or so since then.

oren

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Re: Tesla glory/failure
« Reply #3654 on: September 23, 2019, 05:15:37 PM »
Where are the profits? If Tesla cannot generate profits, it does not matter that the cars are excellent.
Good question. They cannot run losses forever.
On the other hand, the financial reports say that the cars generate about 20% positive gross margin. With good expense control and with sales growth, this means profits will come. If sales shrink and expenses balloon, sayonara.

NeilT

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Re: Tesla glory/failure
« Reply #3655 on: September 23, 2019, 07:03:43 PM »
“We are a wave of change. Together and united, we are unstoppable. This is what people power looks like. We will rise to the challenge."

Does anyone here disagree with that ?

I disagree with it.

I disagree with it too, but not for all the reasons GSY quoted.  I have two reasons, both of which I believe are relevant to the Tesla success/failure story.

Not that I have not said all that GSY said and many times too.  But they are not pertinent to this situation.

My first issue is that we had, over the last decade, successfully made AGW and Climate Change, into a matter of science which intruded into our physical world and needed to be dealt with on the basis of science.

Finally we had a path where politicians, Even Trump, were struggling to make it a political football.

Then we have a bunch of people, in their off time, disrupting the day to day lives of normal people for what is seen, by the masses, as little more than a stunt.

Then we have a 16 year old (little girl), as such things are seen, going to the UN and being seriously listened to by the powers of the world.  This is seen as yet another stunt.

Those two actions, taken together, politicised Climate Change all over again.

We had successfully starved the denial camp of oxygen.  Now they have a whole world of oxygen and the whole "whack a mole" begins all over again.

Now if it motivated a whole new generation of youth to get off the backsides and get serious about Climate Change, I might think that picking up the mallet again and whacking those moles all over again might be worth it.

But now we come to my second point.

Young people today have little focus and even less stamina.  It is no mistake that the 16 year old girl is on the spectrum and is actually unable to focus on anything else.

In my adult  life we have had no major wars. Nothing more than campaign size for ww2/ww1. The closest was Vietnam, which ended whilst I was at school. Even that was little more than a spat in world war terms.

So people, today, have grown up in peace and prosperity.  They are totally unsuited to a long drawn out conflict with the authorities to deal with AGW.  Those who oppose them, on the other hand, are implacably opposed to fighting AGW and always will be.

So all this "good stuff" about Thunberg and ER? You might want to wonder why the powers that be allowed it at all!

Where is the relevance to Tesla?

Tesla is wholly formed to meet the emerging demand from a world that is determined to exit FF reliance and the issues that come with it.

Anything that politicise the efforts to move from FF to clean energy is, IMO going to drag those efforts backwards and Tesla is right in the firing line.
Being right too soon is socially unacceptable.

Robert A. Heinlein

oren

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Re: Tesla glory/failure
« Reply #3656 on: September 23, 2019, 07:11:43 PM »
Seriously? Greta Thunberg politicised climate change??
And yes, this is vastly OT here.

Sigmetnow

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Re: Tesla glory/failure
« Reply #3657 on: September 23, 2019, 07:13:27 PM »
China Gigafactory 3
Video.  Visible progress on the battery factory site, and infrastructure for the main factory.
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=lCUKLe3ivnk&feature=youtu.be

ICYMI: 
Tesla Gigafactory 3 passes major inspection amid V10’s introduction in China
https://www.teslarati.com/tesla-gigafactory-3-major-inspection-v10-eap-china/

Quote
Vincent (@vincent13031925) 9/15/19, 8:46 PM
Tesla Shanghai Gigafactory GF3 China is now recruiting battery related positions.
$TSLA #Tesla #China #TeslaChina #GF3
https://twitter.com/vincent13031925/status/1173397817403928576
Image in chinese and english.  Senior manager, battery.  Etc.


Australia
The stunning Model 3 delivery numbers that will rock Australia’s car industry
Quote
The Driven, however, understands that the exact number – delivered in three ship cargos – is 2,414. This is confirmed by several sources. Most of these are expected to be delivered in September.

If Tesla gets anywhere near that number of deliveries in the month of September – we know a couple of dozen were delivered in late August – it will put the Tesla Model 3 in the ranks of the top ten, and maybe even the top five for new car sales in Australia for the month.
It will also likely double the total sales of Tesla EVs since the Model S was first delivered here in late 2014.
https://thedriven.io/2019/09/23/the-stunning-model-3-delivery-numbers-that-will-rock-australias-car-industry/

Quote
VedaPrime (@VedaPrime) 9/21/19, 10:08 PM
Melina has arrived in Sydney. Ship 6.
#Model3AU
https://twitter.com/vedaprime/status/1175592726181507072
Container ship


Europe
Quote
Morten Grove (@mortenlund89) 9/22/19, 2:05 PM
Glovis Courage now headed to Amsterdam, likely carrying even more #Model3 for NL
ETA: 24:00 CEST.
https://twitter.com/mortenlund89/status/1175833566959284224

That escalated quickly:
Model 3 overtakes Model X as 6th most sold EV, of all time, in Norway.
Quote
Morten Grove (@mortenlund89) 9/23/19, 8:33 AM
BIG REGISTRATION UPDATE
More Tesla #Model3 have now been registered in Norway than Model X.
12844 vs 12801
https://twitter.com/mortenlund89/status/1176112368310353920
Image below.

Q3 final full week begins.  Norway’s daily Model 3 registrations climb: 246 so far today.
Quote
Morten Grove (@mortenlund89) 9/23/19, 11:42 AM
It keeps going!  **246** (17:41 CEST).
https://twitter.com/mortenlund89/status/1176159901917339648
People who say it cannot be done should not interrupt those who are doing it.

Sigmetnow

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Re: Tesla glory/failure
« Reply #3658 on: September 23, 2019, 08:03:47 PM »
Petition open for signatures.

Stop crippling Tesla Autopilot in Europe
https://secure.avaaz.org/en/community_petitions/UNECE_Stop_crippling_Tesla_Autopilot_in_Europe/

====
Leaked Tesla Gigafactory 3 photo shows ongoing Model 3 trial assembly runs
https://www.teslarati.com/tesla-gigafactory-3-model-3-trial-assembly-photos/
« Last Edit: September 23, 2019, 08:09:00 PM by Sigmetnow »
People who say it cannot be done should not interrupt those who are doing it.

KiwiGriff

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Re: Tesla glory/failure
« Reply #3659 on: September 23, 2019, 09:12:50 PM »
I have not bothered to report sales here in NZ as our new car market is a drop in the ocean.
The 3 is already the top selling ev for the year after only one month on the market.

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1TH4s7VN4MOnmbSbkBSlsST-XeE9AwJC38I3unC-RPRQ/edit#gid=1234065456

We have a $8000 rebate funded by a tax on ICE coming in 2021 so I do not expect  electric cars to sell very well until then.

TerryM

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Re: Tesla glory/failure
« Reply #3660 on: September 23, 2019, 09:41:38 PM »
Not much to do with Tesla.


Has Gerontocrat been slaving away for nothing?
Are many simply looking at his charts and graphs and thinking, "What beautiful colours", before posting about how well the future looks - particularly since Tesla now sells some tiny % of private cars?


If the whole world gave up flying, and driving, and shipping, and receiving, and moving further than they could walk - We'd lower CO2 emissions by less than 30%.


If the world lowered CO2 emissions by >30% tomorrow & every day thereafter the Keeling Curve would still be climbing, the world would still be warming, the Arctic Ice would still be shrinking, & weather will get even worse.


Since 1972 we've been spinning our wheels. If you believe that throwing money at EVs will have any effect read Gerontocrat's chart.





Imagine the world with NO Transportation emissions. That's the yellow segment of the chart.
That's as realistic as believing that angels will come down and inhale all the CO2, but it still won't change the direction we're headed.


If you don't understand what Gerontocrat is saying, argue against his facts if you feel compelled. If you are simply intending to remain brainwashed by the latest green wash, then save your rosy projections for Soft Denier sites.
If you're intention is to deceive, that boat has already sailed. The facts are known. Gerontocrat has published these facts, and the crying of every 16 year old female, or the braying of every transportation con-man on the planet won't alter them. :-\
Terry
Running towards the cliff with your eyes sealed shut is not "progress". Screaming "follow me" is delusional - or worse.

oren

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Re: Tesla glory/failure
« Reply #3661 on: September 23, 2019, 10:55:47 PM »
Yeah, it won't help or matter much. But will doing nothing be any better? Will throwing money at defense budgets and corn subsidies and bailing out coal plants and fracking produce better results? One can keep one's eyes wide open and still support incremental and very partial solutions, when the apparent alternative is doing nothing at all. Revolution? I am all for it. Is it happening? Not yet anyway.

Archimid

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Re: Tesla glory/failure
« Reply #3662 on: September 24, 2019, 12:48:02 AM »
Million mile batteries will replace more than just the yellow part.
I am an energy reservoir seemingly intent on lowering entropy for self preservation.

wili

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Re: Tesla glory/failure
« Reply #3663 on: September 24, 2019, 01:34:49 AM »
I have much I could say to GSY and NeilT, but for now, I'll just  quote Gretta: "How dare you!"
"A force de chercher de bonnes raisons, on en trouve; on les dit; et après on y tient, non pas tant parce qu'elles sont bonnes que pour ne pas se démentir." Choderlos de Laclos "You struggle to come up with some valid reasons, then cling to them, not because they're good, but just to not back down."

Rob Dekker

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Re: Tesla glory/failure
« Reply #3664 on: September 24, 2019, 07:49:24 AM »
“We are a wave of change. Together and united, we are unstoppable. This is what people power looks like. We will rise to the challenge."

Does anyone here disagree with that ?

I disagree with it.
...
Renewable energy is less than 5% of total.

You made Greta's point.

You need to shut up and get out of the way, because we have work to do.

We need to de-carbonize our energy systems and switch to electric vehicles.
And we need to start NOW.
This is our planet. This is our time.
Let's not waste either.

Rob Dekker

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Re: Tesla glory/failure
« Reply #3665 on: September 24, 2019, 08:23:26 AM »
I disagree with it too, but not for all the reasons GSY quoted.  I have two reasons, both of which I believe are relevant to the Tesla success/failure story.

Not that I have not said all that GSY said and many times too.  But they are not pertinent to this situation.

My first issue is that we had, over the last decade, successfully made AGW and Climate Change, into a matter of science which intruded into our physical world and needed to be dealt with on the basis of science.

Finally we had a path where politicians, Even Trump, were struggling to make it a political football.

Are you living under a rock ?
Trump killed off whatever little progress any other president before him (especially Obama) made.
Period.

Quote
But now we come to my second point.

Young people today have little focus and even less stamina.

With that kind of opinion, I'd say this :
Love to chat, tea and the rest, but have no time.
We have work to do.

There is a climate crisis going on, with eco-systems collapsing, and all you guys talk about is politics.

At least Elon is building electric cars.

What are YOU doing to solve the climate crisis ?
This is our planet. This is our time.
Let's not waste either.

Neven

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Re: Tesla glory/failure
« Reply #3666 on: September 24, 2019, 11:20:14 AM »
What are YOU doing to solve the climate crisis ?

We do not let ourselves get distracted by Russiagate, nor do we push for military interventions in Venezuela and Iran! Talk about wasting time!  ;D

My main issue with Tesla (besides the blatant contribution to consumer culture conditioning) is personal: they are charger hogs because their batteries are much too large. As soon as I see a Tesla at a public charging station, I know I can forget about using it for the next 3 hours.

It makes me angry because I'm not allowed to use the supermegacharger network with my i-MiEV, but Teslas can go hog public charging stations at will. This only emphasizes that Tesla cars are nothing more than elitist toys, and it doesn't look like the company aims at being anything else.
Il faut comparer, comparer, comparer, et cultiver notre jardin

oren

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Re: Tesla glory/failure
« Reply #3667 on: September 24, 2019, 11:50:36 AM »
I think Tesla should open the Supercharger network to other cars, probably at a higher price than for Tesla cars. The network is subsidized by the purchase price of the cars, so expecting the same price would be unreasonable. I hope they do so ASAP.
I also think thete should be a lot more public chargers installed proactively, so that EV owners will not have to compete with each other.
OTOH, I don't think the 240-mile M3 SR+ has a too-large battery. Tesla's goal has always been to build cars that are desired and bought by normal people, and not just die-hard environmentalists and EV enthusiasts who might settle for any inconvenience. This way there is a better chance of mass deployment of EVs. The performance versions (and Models S, X) are over-specced but they fund the cheaper models, so I think it's unfair to blame the company as elitist for building such models and for not opening their network, while wondering when they will stop losing money.
« Last Edit: September 24, 2019, 12:08:38 PM by oren »

nukefix

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Re: Tesla glory/failure
« Reply #3668 on: September 24, 2019, 12:14:36 PM »
I think the autopilot must be crippled/disabled until it is crystal clear who pays the damages in the crashes that take place. IMO the deployer of the AI must pay - in Tesla's case that means Tesla.

oren

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Re: Tesla glory/failure
« Reply #3669 on: September 24, 2019, 12:22:55 PM »
Currently it's very clear, AP is a driver assist system (an enhanced TACC) and the driver is fully responsible.

bluice

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Re: Tesla glory/failure
« Reply #3670 on: September 24, 2019, 12:33:35 PM »
All the fuzz and buzz around Tesla reminds me of the first iPhone launch. It was similarly loved and hated and eventually it transformed the way we use our mobile devices.

When a consumer product is able to create strong emotional responses it will probably be a success.

I'm not interested in lap times at the Nurnburgring. In my opinion the greatest challenge for Tesla is how to transform itself from a tech startup to a global car manufacturer. Time will tell whether this will succeed but the potential upside is enormous.
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Sigmetnow

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Re: Tesla glory/failure
« Reply #3671 on: September 24, 2019, 03:14:58 PM »
...
My main issue with Tesla (besides the blatant contribution to consumer culture conditioning) is personal: they are charger hogs because their batteries are much too large. As soon as I see a Tesla at a public charging station, I know I can forget about using it for the next 3 hours.

It makes me angry because I'm not allowed to use the supermegacharger network with my i-MiEV, but Teslas can go hog public charging stations at will. This only emphasizes that Tesla cars are nothing more than elitist toys, and it doesn't look like the company aims at being anything else.

So if another i-MiEV, or an e-Golf, or a BMW i3 got to the charger before you, you would not be upset? 
The reasons the chargers are ‘always blocked by Teslas’ is no doubt because there are many more Tesla EVs than other brands in your area!  Their use of convenient chargers is no more elitist than your use.  Why not complain about the scarcity of chargers you can use, instead of blaming other EVs with better tech?
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GoSouthYoungins

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Re: Tesla glory/failure
« Reply #3672 on: September 24, 2019, 04:32:06 PM »
Shorties got nothing.
Where are the profits? If Tesla cannot generate profits, it does not matter that the cars are excellent.

Sounds like an AMZN argument from about 5 years ago.   Of course the stock price is up 400% or so since then.

Wrong.

AMZN self funded their growth. TSLA is a capital black hole.

Musk has never made a profitable business and he never will. He been in charge of companies for something like 50 combined years. Not a single annual profit. 0/50. Batting average .000
big time oops

GoSouthYoungins

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Re: Tesla glory/failure
« Reply #3673 on: September 24, 2019, 04:37:42 PM »
Yeah, it won't help or matter much. But will doing nothing be any better?

So I disagree. Nothing would be a lot better. EVs are part of a way of thinking that says that first world people still get all of their toys, but we will tweek the toys a little so that they are "green".

Until people realize that we need major lifestyle / way-of-life changes, different toys are just green conscious masturbation.
big time oops

Sigmetnow

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Re: Tesla glory/failure
« Reply #3674 on: September 24, 2019, 06:09:49 PM »
Quote
The New York Times has called him “arguably the most successful and important entrepreneur in the world.” It’s an easy case to make: He’s probably the only person who has started four billion-dollar companies – PayPal, Tesla, SpaceX and Solar City. But at his core, Musk is not a businessman or entrepreneur. He’s an engineer, inventor and, as he puts it, “technologist.” And as a naturally gifted engineer, he’s able to find the design inefficiencies, flaws and complete oversights in the tools that power our civilization.
https://www.rollingstone.com/culture/culture-features/elon-musk-the-architect-of-tomorrow-120850/
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GoSouthYoungins

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Re: Tesla glory/failure
« Reply #3675 on: September 24, 2019, 06:10:30 PM »
big time oops

gerontocrat

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Re: Tesla glory/failure
« Reply #3676 on: September 24, 2019, 06:17:16 PM »
While shareholders are suing Tesla over Musk's pay, sending the share price down around 6% so far today,

https://www.mirror.co.uk/tech/tesla-developing-electric-car-battery-20164096
Tesla is developing an electric car battery that will last for a million miles


Note- not Musk shouting again but..
Quote
researchers at Dalhousie University have published a paper in the  The Journal of the Electrochemical Society that brings Tesla a step closer to that vision.

The paper describes a lithium-ion battery that "should be able to power an electric vehicle for over 1 million miles" while losing less than 10% of its energy capacity over the course of its life.

That's more than double the mileage Tesla owners can expect to get out of their car’s current battery packs (300,000 to 500,000 miles), Wired reports .

The battery significantly outperforms any similar lithium-ion battery previously reported, according to physicist Jeff Dahn, who led the research.

He notes that the technology could be especially useful for self-driving "robo taxis" and long-haul electric trucks - two products that Tesla is developing.

The paper goes into explicit detail on the chemical makeup of batteries, which governs how well they perform and how long they last. As Tesla was paying the Dalhousie team to conduct the research on improving lithium-ion batteries, this would normally be a closely-guarded secret.

However, the researchers claim they have released the data "to aid future modelling efforts and to provide modern benchmarks for both old and new cell technologies". In other words, they hope that it will help other researchers extend the life of electric vehicle batteries even further in the future.
 
Of course, Elon Musk isn't just giving away Tesla's valuable research for free. As Wired points out, the company was awarded a patent for a new electric vehicle battery just days after the paper was published. The battery described in the patent features almost exactly the same chemical makeup as the one detailed in the research paper, and Dahn himself is listed as one of the inventors. Former researchers who worked alongside Dahn said there's a very good chance Tesla's patented lithium-ion battery already outperforms the one detailed in the research paper.

It is not known when Tesla plans to put the new battery into production.
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philopek

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Re: Tesla glory/failure
« Reply #3677 on: September 24, 2019, 07:58:44 PM »
While shareholders are suing Tesla over Musk's pay, sending the share price down around 6% so far today,

https://www.mirror.co.uk/tech/tesla-developing-electric-car-battery-20164096
Tesla is developing an electric car battery that will last for a million miles



Must be a paid article of some kind because Tesla contributes exactly nothing know-how wise to these batteries and once it will be ready for the market it will be available to anyone willing to pay for it like any other battery before that.

Panasonic and others are the real producers of batteries and providers of current know-how and all others are either licensees or purchase products ready to use.

Panasonic, one of the world's biggest producers of electric vehicle batteries, manufactures the cells, and Tesla combines them into battery packs

There is no Tesla invented and developed battery technology and nothing like that is in the process, Tesla is currently the largest single customer but not long anymore.

On the other hand Volkswagen started it's factory where they really produce batteries from A-Z as a pilot that will evolve into a full scale production by 2024.

Archimid

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Re: Tesla glory/failure
« Reply #3678 on: September 24, 2019, 08:17:13 PM »
philopek

Jeff Dahn, the lead scientist behind this paper is partner with Tesla and Tesla already patented a version of this technology.

Quote
Just days after the publication of the benchmarking paper, Tesla and Dahn were awarded a patent that described a single-crystal lithium-ion battery almost identical to the batteries described in the paper. The patented battery includes an electrolyte additive called ODTO that the patent claims can “enhance performance and lifetime of Li-ion batteries, while reducing costs.”

https://www.wired.com/story/tesla-may-soon-have-a-battery-that-can-last-a-million-miles/

Quote
There is no Tesla invented and developed battery technology and nothing like that is in the process, Tesla is currently the largest single customer but not long anymore.

You go ahead and invest based on that. I'll believe the patents and common sense.


A million mile EV taxi can replace 4 ICE taxis for a fraction of the operating cost. If such vehicle was used 24/7, the impact on emissions would be significant. Even without self driving a million mile EV taxi could significantly reduce CO2 emissions. With self driving, ICE fleets would be retired even with mileage left because the savings would be too large to overcome.

And we haven't even started talking about what a 5000 cycle battery could do for grid, business and home storage.
I am an energy reservoir seemingly intent on lowering entropy for self preservation.

philopek

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Re: Tesla glory/failure
« Reply #3679 on: September 24, 2019, 08:19:46 PM »

So if another i-MiEV, or an e-Golf, or a BMW i3 got to the charger before you, you would not be upset? 
The reasons the chargers are ‘always blocked by Teslas’ is no doubt because there are many more Tesla EVs than other brands in your area!  Their use of convenient chargers is no more elitist than your use.  Why not complain about the scarcity of chargers you can use, instead of blaming other EVs with better tech?

Please read and think before replying to argument a) with a reply to b)

First of all he said that a Tesla takes longer to charge beause its' battery is way larger than that of others like his car a i3's.

So your reply is not a reply that refers to his reasoning, (battery size = waiting time = worth to hope that a space will become available within reasonable time)

Next is that Tesla never ever has more than 50% market share and you reply implies that the market share explains why more Teslas are charging than other EVs. If Teslas Market share is less than 50%, obviously more non-Teslas are using the chargers than Teslas.

That post is exactly the kind of post that shows all the bias and that has only one purpose, to glorify the holy cow that in fact is a golden calf (from the bible when Moses came back down from Mount-Sinai)

Each time I click on the "NEW" button for this thread I get the feeling that i have some kind of tendency to "masochism" how else can I justify to  myself to read through all the proof why this world is as it is and will stay that way till doom.

Your kind of people who are replacing a former debacle with a potential (certain) new debacle
that will cost us another 20-50 years till everyone has gotten it and until many died in the process, are exactly responsible by putting "warners" into the corner of the "outlaws"

Believe me or not, this very same discussion could have taken place 100 years ago when cars were invented and whoever said anything against them was discarded as a stupid old-fashioned biased horse and/or coach owner.

Neven is 100% right, cap the max allowed wealth and reduce the weight of cars to a certain amount per seat, i.e. 200kg per seat. That would either make a big car twice as expensive or lighter and most probably smaller in the process.

Size and weight is what has to be moved around and the more weight per passenger the less efficient, no matter the energy source. All energy has to be produced and the electricity used by a TESLA or E-Tron SUV could be used better for other things, i.e to replace some nuclear power plants are even coal power plants.

As long as we are not 100% renewable on electricity, every KW used by a car is missing elsewhere or producing CO2.

The heavier the cars are, the faster they are, hence the bigger the batteries are, the more elsewhere needed electricity goes into that car unnecessarily.

If I had a say, i would cap car size to 2 seats per person in a household and that would make a single household owning 500kg cars max. Of course with exceptions for taxis, divorced parents that still drive their kids etc. But generally a single household does not need a 7-seater at 2.7 tons
and a childless couple neither.

etc. etc.
« Last Edit: September 24, 2019, 09:22:23 PM by philopek »

KiwiGriff

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Re: Tesla glory/failure
« Reply #3680 on: September 24, 2019, 09:05:35 PM »
Quote
If I had a say, i would cap car size to 2 seats per person in a household and that would make a single household owning 500kg cars max
And you would be lynched.
Politics is the art of the possible.
More than  50% of the population has no intention of doing a smegging thing about AGW.
Apparently I live in the anglosphere country that is closest to addressing the issue . Even here mainstream right wing politics is involved in spreading denier fud and attacking any effort to do something .
We do not have more decades waiting for the babyboom deniers to die off before we act.
Tesla is shifting the world towards electric cars not  because they are solving AGW but because they make better cars than ICE.
If you don't get why that is so important you are not thinking.   

Tom_Mazanec

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Re: Tesla glory/failure
« Reply #3681 on: September 24, 2019, 10:09:52 PM »
Here is more on the million mile battery:
Tesla Could Actually Be Developing a Million-Mile Battery
https://www.caranddriver.com/news/a29208486/tesla-million-mile-battery/
Quote
Elon Musk claimed in April 2019 that Tesla cars would last one million miles, more than doubling the current life of a Tesla battery.
A paper from a research team at Dalhousie University in Canada describes a new chemistry that produces batteries that can last for 4000 charge cycles, which it says would be useful for "robotaxis" and autonomous trucking.
Shortly after the paper was published, Tesla patented a new battery with a similar design to the one described in the paper.
SHARKS (CROSSED OUT) MONGEESE (SIC) WITH FRICKIN LASER BEAMS ATTACHED TO THEIR HEADS

gerontocrat

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Re: Tesla glory/failure
« Reply #3682 on: September 24, 2019, 11:56:52 PM »
While shareholders are suing Tesla over Musk's pay, sending the share price down around 6% so far today,

https://www.mirror.co.uk/tech/tesla-developing-electric-car-battery-20164096
Tesla is developing an electric car battery that will last for a million miles



Must be a paid article of some kind because Tesla contributes exactly nothing know-how wise to these batteries and once it will be ready for the market it will be available to anyone willing to pay for it like any other battery before that.

Panasonic and others are the real producers of batteries and providers of current know-how and all others are either licensees or purchase products ready to use.

Panasonic, one of the world's biggest producers of electric vehicle batteries, manufactures the cells, and Tesla combines them into battery packs

There is no Tesla invented and developed battery technology and nothing like that is in the process, Tesla is currently the largest single customer but not long anymore.

On the other hand Volkswagen started it's factory where they really produce batteries from A-Z as a pilot that will evolve into a full scale production by 2024.
Did you deliberately exclude the first line of the article that says "researchers at Dalhousie University.........." ?  I object strongly to being misquoted by omission of essential data.
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philopek

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Re: Tesla glory/failure
« Reply #3683 on: September 25, 2019, 01:38:37 AM »
Did you deliberately exclude the first line of the article that says "researchers at Dalhousie University.........." ?  I object strongly to being misquoted by omission of essential data.

No, not deliberately with bad intention, i referred to the linked article more than to your other text and wanted the quote to be as short as possible as requested by neven many times.

Sorry if I didn't include anything that you find important while is still don't get it, the title of the linked article says "TESLA......" and to the other part i have nothing to add and hence did not quote it.

Obviously we're not in sync on this one, but I certainly don't mean to hurt anyone's feelings, hence please accept my appologies if I did.
« Last Edit: September 25, 2019, 01:45:34 AM by philopek »

Sigmetnow

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Re: Tesla glory/failure
« Reply #3684 on: September 25, 2019, 01:48:11 AM »
Austria. June YTD.  Why you are seeing more Teslas in Austria nowdays than you ever have before.

EV Sales: Austria June 2019
Quote
In the manufacturers ranking, Tesla is (way) ahead, with 29% share, followed by BMW (13%), while Volkswagen and Hyundai, both with 9% share, run for the last place in the podium.
http://ev-sales.blogspot.com/2019/07/austria-june-2019.html
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Sigmetnow

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Re: Tesla glory/failure
« Reply #3685 on: September 25, 2019, 02:53:33 AM »
• ICE manufacturers had difficulty negotiating with LG Chem, but Tesla sealed the deal, including promised investments of up to 1.2 trillion won to increase their battery production even further.
• LG Chem batteries involve new NCM chemistry.
• Tesla’s new “million mile” battery is NCM
• the switch to the new battery appears to be happening quickly.
• “[LG Chem] also hinted that it may be able to begin mass producing NCMA batteries, which is even higher in nickel, beginning in 2022 to apply to EVs.”

ICYMI:
LG Chem mass producing NCM cyclical batteries for Tesla
High-nickel NCM811 applied
Quote
LG Chem has begun to mass produce batteries for Tesla’s Model 3 electric vehicles from its Nanjing plant in China, according to industry sources Sept. 18.
The US-based EV maker will be using LG Chem’ 21700 type batteries using NCM811 that boast a nickel proportion of 80% or more. The LG company previously supplied the NCM811 to electric buses. This is the first time to supply an automobile, the sources said.

Until now, Tesla has been supplied by Japan’s Panasonic, which uses NCA, which is another type of high nickel cathode material.
LG Chem convinced Tesla to switch to NCM811 batteries based on the longer driving distances per charge. It also hinted that it may be able to begin mass producing NCMA batteries, which is even higher in nickel, beginning in 2022 to apply to EVs.

The Model 3, which now receiving pre-orders in China, can run 480km on a single charge for the standard model. The cars sold in Korea are slightly heavier and have a single charge driving distance of 353km.

Upon requests from Tesla, LG Chem is now preparing to expand its battery lines. Already, it has doubled the production volume from its Nanjing plant from last year. Nanjing is where LG said in January this year that it would invest up to 1.2 trillion won to expand the facilities.
According to market research firm SNE Research, LG Chem is expected to churn out up to 1 billion cylindrical battery cells per year from Nanjing. In 2017, the firm was producing 630 million such cells.
http://en.thelec.kr/news/articleView.html?idxno=512
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KiwiGriff

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Re: Tesla glory/failure
« Reply #3686 on: September 25, 2019, 02:58:39 AM »
Quote
First of all he said that a Tesla takes longer to charge beause its' battery is way larger than that of others like his car a i3's.

The BMW I3 charges at a maximum of 50kw and has a 22 to a 40kwh battery.
Tesla  model three can charge its 50 to 75kwh battery's  up to five times faster at 250kw .
The bottle neck is in the charging station capacity not the Tesla cars battery size or charging ability.
Plenty of Tesla owners complain about leaf's and I3's hogging fast charges  as they crawl to 100%.
As it is usually  cheaper and often quicker for a Tesla owner to use Tesla supercharges I doubt Tesla's charger hogging  is a significant problem every where .

Rob Dekker

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Re: Tesla glory/failure
« Reply #3687 on: September 25, 2019, 05:21:28 AM »
My main issue with Tesla (besides the blatant contribution to consumer culture conditioning) is personal: they are charger hogs because their batteries are much too large. As soon as I see a Tesla at a public charging station, I know I can forget about using it for the next 3 hours.

It makes me angry because I'm not allowed to use the supermegacharger network with my i-MiEV, but Teslas can go hog public charging stations at will. This only emphasizes that Tesla cars are nothing more than elitist toys, and it doesn't look like the company aims at being anything else.

Moving away from fossil fuels means we need to electrify all ground transportation.
Not just your small vehicle, and not just the sedans that Tesla makes, but also pickup trucks and semi's.

So in the future, we are going to need a LOT more charger stations, with a LOT more power.

For your immediate complaint :
New charger stations are being built all the time. Here is a list of new ones in your area :
https://ev-charging.com/at/en/catalog/index/at/Steiermark/F%C3%BCrstenfeld

Also, Tesla supercharger network in Austria is not so dense yet.
I think the nearest one to you is in Gleisdorf (30 km?), and then there is one in Graz.
Once more people buy more Teslas, Tesla will install more superchargers.

And by the way, these Tesla superchargers are 150 kW or 250 kW.
They would totally fry your tiny 16 kWh battery.
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Let's not waste either.

Neven

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Re: Tesla glory/failure
« Reply #3688 on: September 25, 2019, 10:28:48 AM »
I don't have a problem with Teslas at fast charging stations, anyone can wait 20-30 minutes (although someone gave me the finger in the Netherlands because it was going to take 10 minutes). I have a problem in Graz because I need to charge to be able to get back home. It is true that they should be building more chargers there (they built a lot of them a few years ago, when it was a hype for municipalities to do their share to 'stop AGW'), but if I'd have a 50 kWh battery, I'd be charging at home 90% of the time and the rest at a (Tesla) supercharger.
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Rob Dekker

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Re: Tesla glory/failure
« Reply #3689 on: September 25, 2019, 10:44:29 AM »
I don't have a problem with Teslas at fast charging stations, anyone can wait 20-30 minutes (although someone gave me the finger in the Netherlands because it was going to take 10 minutes). I have a problem in Graz because I need to charge to be able to get back home. It is true that they should be building more chargers there (they built a lot of them a few years ago, when it was a hype for municipalities to do their share to 'stop AGW'), but if I'd have a 50 kWh battery, I'd be charging at home 90% of the time and the rest at a (Tesla) supercharger.

If you require a re-charge when going to Graz (60 km) and back, you need a bigger battery.
« Last Edit: September 25, 2019, 11:00:03 AM by Rob Dekker »
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Rob Dekker

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Re: Tesla glory/failure
« Reply #3690 on: September 25, 2019, 11:29:52 AM »
...cap the max allowed wealth and reduce the weight of cars to a certain amount per seat, i.e. 200kg per seat. That would either make a big car twice as expensive or lighter and most probably smaller in the process.

Size and weight is what has to be moved around and the more weight per passenger the less efficient, no matter the energy source. All energy has to be produced and the electricity used by a TESLA or E-Tron SUV could be used better for other things, i.e to replace some nuclear power plants are even coal power plants.

As long as we are not 100% renewable on electricity, every KW used by a car is missing elsewhere or producing CO2.

The heavier the cars are, the faster they are, hence the bigger the batteries are, the more elsewhere needed electricity goes into that car unnecessarily.

If I had a say, i would cap car size to 2 seats per person in a household and that would make a single household owning 500kg cars max. Of course with exceptions for taxis, divorced parents that still drive their kids etc. But generally a single household does not need a 7-seater at 2.7 tons
and a childless couple neither.

etc. etc.

If I were a climate change denier and a paid fossil fuel advocate, I would not be able to put out a better post than you just did :

- Limit capital, so that the capital-heavy investments in renewables will not happen, and
- Limit weight of cars so that cars with a battery are at a disadvantage, and
- Argue that energy for EVs could be used better for other purposes, and
- As long as we are not 100% renewable, all electricity for EVs is emitting CO2, and 
- bringing up non-sensical arguments like "The heavier the cars are, the faster they are,", and
- imposing bizarre authoritarian rules on private transportation, like limit 2 per vehicle, excluding " divorced parents that still drive their kids ".

I have to admit that the latter two seem just... weird... but the rest puts you solidly in the fossil-fuel-advocates arena.
« Last Edit: September 25, 2019, 11:36:29 AM by Rob Dekker »
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Neven

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Re: Tesla glory/failure
« Reply #3691 on: September 25, 2019, 11:32:02 AM »
If you require a re-charge when going to Graz (60 km) and back, you need a bigger battery.

I've ordered a Sono Motors Sion, and now hope it will be built. It will have a 38 kWh battery, I believe, and thus a 200-250 km range.
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Sigmetnow

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Re: Tesla glory/failure
« Reply #3692 on: September 25, 2019, 02:01:42 PM »
If you require a re-charge when going to Graz (60 km) and back, you need a bigger battery.

I've ordered a Sono Motors Sion, and now hope it will be built. It will have a 38 kWh battery, I believe, and thus a 200-250 km range.

I’m keeping good thoughts for Sono Motors.  I have not heard that they are having difficulties (as opposed to the news on NIO and VW I just posted in the Electric Cars thread), so I hope for the best.

—-
I don’t think it has been mentioned here, but it bears repeating:  the Model 3 does not come with free supercharging for life, unlike how the S and X has.  Using a referral code, or some special offers, a new owner can (sometimes) get 1,000 miles or so of free supercharging, but other than that, Tesla owners are paying for charging like everyone else (and even more, if they are charging longer or at a faster rate ;)).
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sedziobs

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Re: Tesla glory/failure
« Reply #3693 on: September 25, 2019, 03:24:14 PM »
A new supercharger is currently under construction in Griffen.

GoSouthYoungins

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Re: Tesla glory/failure
« Reply #3694 on: September 25, 2019, 04:07:24 PM »
Quote
If I had a say, i would cap car size to 2 seats per person in a household and that would make a single household owning 500kg cars max
And you would be lynched.
Politics is the art of the possible.
More than  50% of the population has no intention of doing a smegging thing about AGW.
Apparently I live in the anglosphere country that is closest to addressing the issue . Even here mainstream right wing politics is involved in spreading denier fud and attacking any effort to do something .
We do not have more decades waiting for the babyboom deniers to die off before we act.
Tesla is shifting the world towards electric cars not  because they are solving AGW but because they make better cars than ICE.
If you don't get why that is so important you are not thinking.

If you don't get that switching the toy from fossil fuel powered to electricity (from fossil fuel) powered, then your level of thinking is so thin that it is not important.

If the only "solution" people can get behind is a slightly less bad version of the same thing, there is really little to no hope.
big time oops

GoSouthYoungins

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Re: Tesla glory/failure
« Reply #3695 on: September 25, 2019, 04:13:37 PM »
...cap the max allowed wealth and reduce the weight of cars to a certain amount per seat, i.e. 200kg per seat. That would either make a big car twice as expensive or lighter and most probably smaller in the process.

Size and weight is what has to be moved around and the more weight per passenger the less efficient, no matter the energy source. All energy has to be produced and the electricity used by a TESLA or E-Tron SUV could be used better for other things, i.e to replace some nuclear power plants are even coal power plants.

As long as we are not 100% renewable on electricity, every KW used by a car is missing elsewhere or producing CO2.

The heavier the cars are, the faster they are, hence the bigger the batteries are, the more elsewhere needed electricity goes into that car unnecessarily.

If I had a say, i would cap car size to 2 seats per person in a household and that would make a single household owning 500kg cars max. Of course with exceptions for taxis, divorced parents that still drive their kids etc. But generally a single household does not need a 7-seater at 2.7 tons
and a childless couple neither.

etc. etc.

If I were a climate change denier and a paid fossil fuel advocate, I would not be able to put out a better post than you just did :

- Limit capital, so that the capital-heavy investments in renewables will not happen, and
- Limit weight of cars so that cars with a battery are at a disadvantage, and
- Argue that energy for EVs could be used better for other purposes, and
- As long as we are not 100% renewable, all electricity for EVs is emitting CO2, and 
- bringing up non-sensical arguments like "The heavier the cars are, the faster they are,", and
- imposing bizarre authoritarian rules on private transportation, like limit 2 per vehicle, excluding " divorced parents that still drive their kids ".

I have to admit that the latter two seem just... weird... but the rest puts you solidly in the fossil-fuel-advocates arena.

I agree that phil's policy proposals are authoritarian and would be poor public policy. But, I could quite easily make a better pro fossil fuel post if that was my goal...

"If the science is right, then with the warming we have seen (and especially the volume reducing in arctic ice) and the amount of lag in before full effect is felt from emission AND the amount of lag there would be in rebuilding a fossil-fuel-reliant society's infrastructure, THERE IS NO HOPE OF AVOIDING CATASTROPHE. So lets hope the science is wrong and drill baby drill, and burn baby burn."
big time oops

philopek

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Re: Tesla glory/failure
« Reply #3696 on: September 25, 2019, 06:13:38 PM »
I see, another proof that no real changes are wanted:

limit weight/size of cars does NOT exclude electrification by an means, a vehicle of 300kg and bad aerodynamics runs as long on a 14.4kw/h battery than a current 1300kg vehicle with of of triple that size = triple the weight you have no clue what you're talking about and bias is blinding you so much that you discard the solution as weird.

Totalitarian ?

YES, it's necessary but you don't get it

Democracy at it's current stage is bankrupt and doomed and will lead to less benevolent totalitariism than my totalitarian proposal to put limits to private transport.

You want changes but refuse anything that has a REAL effect which is why nothing happens, hence you are guilty hypocrites.

I never said heavy = fast through heaviness, i said they are heavy and drive faster than necessary, hence need big batteries that have to be driven around to no avail.

Cars have to be small and lightweight and then need much less heavy batteries which is a positive feedback.

I was not sure yet whether you mean it good but lack imagination and readiness to do the necessary no matter what.

No i'm sure and i shall restrict myself to very short statements like:

- stupid

- narrow minded

- hypocrite

etc. the rest you can make up yourself since you like to revers the words in other peoples mouth and make bullshit out of proposals to get real progress on the matter.

I never said anything against BEVs which should be obvious from all my other posts, hence what you did is churning your teeth after my posts and waiting for a quasi/pseudo opportunity to pay back.

If i say that electricity used for cars can be used better elsewhere i OBVIOUSLY mean the surplus electricity needed to move 1.5 unnecessary TONS of weight while the same number of people could be tranported with 1'000kg cars instead of one that weights 2'500kg because the battery size has to serve unnecessary weight and speed.

Every benevolent reader would understand my post in a positive manner and your replies clearly show that you are not cause or solution oriented but want to make yourself known by blowing into a modern/hyped horn.

Every decent engineer will confirm that weight and aerodynamics are key to safe energy and that applies to e-power like to fossul power and if those two things are combined the problems related to battery technology could be cut down to a third the same way like consumption over all.

That was the core of my statement and you made it sound and look the opposite, not even asking a question like "not sure how you mean it" or something.



Rivalis is another main cause for the state planet earth and it's inhabitants are in and you just delivered another great example.


« Last Edit: September 25, 2019, 06:23:38 PM by philopek »

oren

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Re: Tesla glory/failure
« Reply #3697 on: September 25, 2019, 08:44:40 PM »
Totalitarian ?

YES, it's necessary but you don't get it

Democracy at it's current stage is bankrupt and doomed and will lead to less benevolent totalitariism than my totalitarian proposal to put limits to private transport.

You want changes but refuse anything that has a REAL effect which is why nothing happens, hence you are guilty hypocrites.
I am not sure who the bolded statement refers to, but as it's plural I'll make a response.
Pardon me but I think this statement is not logical. Is the reason that nothing happens really because WE want changes but WE refuse radical solutions with REAL effects? Or maybe because so many OTHERS don't want changes, don't see the need for changes, and don't bother to read your posts or mine on the ASIF?
I would love radical solutions with REAL effects that would actually be deployed. But shooting down partial solutions that can actually get implemented (with severe limitations: too slow, requiring new resources etc.) - just because someone thought of a better and more radical solution that will not actually get implemented - is not logical. In fact, I think it's a bit hypocritical, stopping a small improvement because it's not a big improvement, while the big improvement does not have wide support and is therefore imaginary.
WE are not stopping the radical solutions. WE know they are needed, WE advocate for them, but WE also note they are not happening at the present time, and are not expected to happen in the near future, so WE also support something very partial - but REAL - while still hoping for the radical solutions to find wide support in the future.

Note: I happen to agree that benevolent totalitarianism could be a solution out of the current problem, and that humanity will probably devolve to non-benevolent totalitarianism when the problem plays out in its full manifestation. But how will you achieve this benevolent totalitarianism? Is this a REAL solution with a REAL effect that will be deployed tomorrow? I think not.

Note 2: I support a tourist flight ban, a big home ban, a big car ban, a general luxury ban, a big family ban etc., despite the personal pain it might cause me or my family. But can I use these ideas to prove that nothing else needs to be done? No, because there isn't wide support for these, ergo they will not get implemented, and we are left with the partial and poor solutions.

Note 3: Trying desperately to tie this discussion somehow to the thread's topic, I think there are posters here who truly believe that because of Tesla the radical solutions are not implemented. But these posters are wrong, people support Tesla not because they think this is a complete solution, but because they think a partial solution is better than no solution at all. So best use this thread for its purpose, discussions on Tesla's success or failure.

cognitivebias2

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Re: Tesla glory/failure
« Reply #3698 on: September 25, 2019, 08:51:08 PM »
Oren,
  Thanks for taking the time to spell that out.   Perfect post! 


blumenkraft

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Re: Tesla glory/failure
« Reply #3699 on: September 25, 2019, 08:57:31 PM »
I support a tourist flight ban, a big home ban, a big car ban, a general luxury ban, a big family ban etc.

And there i thought i was the radical.  ;D

Great post, Oren!
Refugees welcome