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KiwiGriff

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Re: Tesla glory/failure
« Reply #5750 on: July 04, 2020, 01:53:45 AM »

GoSouthYoungins
Re: Tesla glory/failure
« Reply #3931 on: October 14, 2019, 05:49:55 AM

Quote
Wow, so apparently everyone has an IQ of like 70 on this thread. Cool.  I've always wanted to do some charity work.


Capex being smaller than deprec isn't some silver bullet. I was simply pointing to it to show that Neil 70IQ-idea that Tesla was totally profitable but just spending the money on other stuff was total nonsense.

There were all sorts or responses. None of them made sense. Oren's was by far the closest.


I think I will wait to post here again until the BK happens. So goodbye for the next few months. You are all "not-brilliant" as neven wishes me to phrase it.

Q3 financials will be a disaster. fElon is already throwing a tantrum and attacking reporting who are, you know, reporting facts. My guess is about a half a B loss for this joke of a company.

It is truly sad that this corporate fraud as suckered so many good spirited ppl into this charade. Good day non-geniuses. Until the biggest "I told you so" ever, so long.

https://rationalwiki.org/wiki/RationalWiki:Leaving_and_never_coming_back



Animals can be driven crazy by placing too many in too small a pen. Homo sapiens is the only animal that voluntarily does this to himself.
Notebooks of Lazarus Long.
Robert Heinlein.

Sigmetnow

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Re: Tesla glory/failure
« Reply #5751 on: July 04, 2020, 02:37:35 AM »
Re-examining the effects of a Full Self Driving (FSD) “take rate,” given a low cost subscription option (probably cheaper than Tesla’s will be).
Quote
Matt Smith (@MatchasmMatt) 7/3/20, 9:46 AM
FSD Upgrade Case Study (A Very Long Thread)
Dutch EV Lease Operator MisterGreen offered its [Tesla] customers a subscription-based FSD option.
Within just 2 weeks, a staggering 20% of its users upgraded.

https://twitter.com/matchasmmatt/status/1279048767505915904

~ MisterGreen, a Dutch company which owns 2,500 Teslas and leases them out to customers. His company is incredibly interesting and Florian is very forward-thinking on the potential for Teslas to appreciate.

In mid-June, MisterGreen offered ~1,600 of its customers the opportunity to upgrade to FSD for only €40 / month ($45). MisterGreen also has the right to increase that price as more features become released. In just two weeks of this offer being made, 300 of their customers...
… opted for an upgrade, or ~20% of those who received the offer. Satisfied customers took to Twitter to explain the rationale for their upgrade.
...
This number blew my mind when I first heard it, and I immediately started thinking of the implications for Tesla once they offer an FSD subscription package. Perhaps a 3% upgrade rate was appropriate for estimating the number of customers who would upgrade if they had to...
...pay $7K in full, but I never contemplated how much larger the number could be if offered as a subscription. …

This case study offers a very helpful tool in trying to estimate the potential financial impact of FSD subscriptions on Tesla’s bottom line. We also know from the Q1 call that Tesla is planning to launch this service later this year. ...

View the entire Twitter thread at this link:
https://threadreaderapp.com/thread/1279048767505915904.html
 
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Archimid

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Re: Tesla glory/failure
« Reply #5752 on: July 04, 2020, 11:45:23 AM »
Archimid, no need to assume conspiracy when you can blame misinformation.

Elon Musk is the kind of person that could get 1000 ventilators even when the federal government couldn't find them. Assuming misinformation is naive.

Quote
Many usually smart people have fallen into the Covid denial trap. Why? The explanations are in the field of psychology or neuroscience, not cryospehre or AGW related.

There are two possibilities. Panic or evil. 

Panic means that fear takes over and corrupt his thought processes. But look at TSLA stock. Look at how well protected Tesla factories are. Look at the vaccine solutions tesla is about to manufacture. Panicky people make stupid mistakes. Tesla is flying high. He is informed. Tesla is ready.

Yet, in public, he is making HORRIBLY bad predictions that had the effect of downplaying the disease, reducing compliance and increasing infection rate.

Quote
Stop looking for explanations, and surely this is not related to Tesla, same as Elon being a purported superhero (as appears from the tweets often brought by Sig) is not related to Tesla.

Elon public tweets are intimately related to the day to day operations and valuation of Tesla:

https://twitter.com/elonmusk/status/1259162367285317633

On top of that, Elon tweets are also intimately linked with California's response to the coronavirus.

Quote
And what BeeKnees said, balance is better than going to extremes on both sides of the argument.

I examine both ends of the argument with the hope of finding the truth in between. The truth in between the Hero/Villian argument is ugly.

Tesla needs positivity to keep going up. Elon is providing it at the cost of life lost to non-complieance and the economic hit of prolonging the pandemic. Elon Musk is creating a positivity illusion that generates sales and high stock market prices at the cost of noncompliance and poor decision making.

This leads to unnecessary deaths and a slower recovery.
I am an energy reservoir seemingly intent on lowering entropy for self preservation.

NeilT

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Re: Tesla glory/failure
« Reply #5753 on: July 04, 2020, 11:53:53 AM »
Oren, it is pretty clear that certain aspects of Tesla have shifted from setting an impossible expectation, then just missing it, to setting a very low goal and the hitting it out of the park.

It was clear that Tesla was always going for 10k cars per week from Fremont by year end.  So to set a target of 500k, with Shanghai ramping up to 300k was a very low expectation. They always expected to deliver more than 300k M3 alone from Shanghai.  With a 500k rate In Fremont and a 300k rate in Shanghai, 800k is a Musk target of old.

The analysts are ably assisting in both earnings beats and production beats by refusing to accept this reality and continuing to talk as if Tesla has only one vehicle assembly plant and no funds behind them.

This attitude is going to be shattered ove the next 18 to 24 months and with it will go the resistance to future stock rises.

As for Musk and very clever people being fooeld, there are some very inconvenient truths.

First is that when Tesla dragged the county to court, it was proven that they didn't have any real case for stopping Tesla from opening.  They asked for some piffling cosmetic changes then backed off.

In the UK, less than 500 people under the age of 40 have died of the pandemic and every single one had an underlying health condition, diagnosed or not.

15. 9% of people tested in London for Covid antibodies tested positive. This extrapolated out to 1.4 million people.  Yet the deaths are just over 6,000.  A death to infection rate of 0.48%.

11.2 million people have been infected and 6.3 million people have recovered yet there is not one sing, medically documented, case of a recovered person having been reinfected more than one month after the infection has passed, when the body has had sufficient time to develop enough antibodies.

You don't have to be very clever to listen to the politicians who want to do everything in order for this not to be their fault.  You do, however, have to have some intellect to work out whether what is being done is in their best interests or ours.

Just as a disclaimer here, my brother has had Covid, he is 60, is on multiple drugs and immunosupressants, was under a shielding order at home and caught the virus anyway after all precautions including sanitising all mail and other deliveries.

My Brother is now recovered.

My wife, in February, was seriously ill for a month and took another month to recover.  She had every covid symptom, including loss of smell and taste.  But being in France she didn't go to doctors or hospital and was not tested.  My wife is over 70.

There is more than one way to approach this pandemic, but, in the main, only one approach is being taken. Everyone else is a heretic.

Well there is one event coming in the near future.  That is the vaccine.  In order to receive the vaccine they should test for the absence of antibodies.

Before throwing out accusations about the mental state of people who challenge the actions being taken, it might be useful to wait until then.  Because I can pretty much guarantee that the vaccine will be given without testing. It won't harm if it is, but it will mask the true figures of how many people were really infected.  Which changes the infection to death rate.

Sorry for the long post, but some things nead to be said. Statements without evidence are just that, statements.  I thought everyone here understood that?
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Archimid

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Re: Tesla glory/failure
« Reply #5754 on: July 04, 2020, 12:10:34 PM »
>
Quote
In the UK, less than 500 people under the age of 40 have died of the pandemic and every single one had an underlying health condition, diagnosed or not.

Indeed. Thankfully the UK didn't listen to Musk and locked down. A bit late but they did manage to bring the cases down, unlike Elon Musk's state, California.

As you know, I have argued in favor of Fremont to remain open and work to continue in a safe manner. Even now. I believe and trust in PPE and preventive measures.  They work.

As I said, Tesla has an A for a coherent, organized, proactive response to the coronavirus. Elon Musk has an F for the predictions he has made and the advice he has given. Elon twitter C19 behavior hurts Tesla in the long term.
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Sigmetnow

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Re: Tesla glory/failure
« Reply #5755 on: July 04, 2020, 04:16:02 PM »
Quote
Whole Mars (@WholeMarsBlog) 7/4/20, 6:55 AM
In Q2 2020, Model 3 outsold all other vehicles at Tesla combined.
In Q3 2020, Model Y will outsell all other vehicles combined.
(It was only 22,000 deliveries away from hitting it this quarter. Might have happened if not for the shutdown) 
https://twitter.com/wholemarsblog/status/1279368288577835008

Quote
Bloomberg Opinion by Chris Bryant, headline: “Tesla’s overexcited fans should cool down a little”

Whole Mars (@WholeMarsBlog) 7/3/20, 5:10 PM
If you understood what was happening you’d be excited too. 
https://twitter.com/wholemarsblog/status/1279160590263480322

Quote
Otw 2 Mars (@otw2mars) 7/4/20, 1:43 AM
Congrats to @Tesla for being the 20th largest company by market cap. $TSLA 
https://twitter.com/otw2mars/status/1279289817595908101
Table below.  Click to embiggen.
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Sigmetnow

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Re: Tesla glory/failure
« Reply #5756 on: July 04, 2020, 06:31:40 PM »
Quote
Tobias Lindh (@tobilindh) 7/4/20, 6:28 AM
Even though it's Saturday, there was some activity at #GigaBerlin. No earthworks at the weekend, but they continue to build footings and pour concrete. 
https://twitter.com/tobilindh/status/1279361453624045568

Giga Berlin | 2020-07-04 | More columns and footings  [includes factory layout overlays]
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Sigmetnow

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Re: Tesla glory/failure
« Reply #5757 on: July 05, 2020, 01:12:17 AM »
Even during this ongoing coronavirus pandemic, shares are up more than 140% this year. Along with Netflix, that type of stock performance puts Tesla in rare company, as it has outperformed other tech giants like Amazon and Apple.

Tesla's Market Cap Passes Exxon Mobil In Historic Paradigm Shift
July 01, 2020
Quote
An energy paradigm shift is underway. According to Bloomberg, "Tesla Inc.’s market value has surpassed Exxon Mobil Corp.’s in a sign that investors are increasingly betting on a global energy transition away from fossil fuels." Bloomberg touted the turning point as a "symbolic energy shift" that could signify a seismic transformation taking place in the sector.

It's reported that, "Elon Musk’s Tesla, now at $201 billion in market capitalization, is surging on the billionaire’s optimism that his company can avoid a second-quarter loss. Exxon, which dropped to $185 billion, is reeling from the worst crude-price crash in history. The largest oil company in the Western Hemisphere is preparing to cut some of its U.S. workforce."

The stock closed yesterday at an all-time record marking a milestone for Elon Musk's electric car company. According to Marketwatch, "Tesla Inc. shares ended at a record $1,079.81 on Tuesday, sending the Silicon Valley car maker's market cap above $200 billion for the first time." ... 
https://insideevs.com/news/431709/tesla-stock-market-value-overtakes-exxon/
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oren

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Re: Tesla glory/failure
« Reply #5758 on: July 05, 2020, 07:54:03 AM »
I repeat, the discussion of personal Elon Musk and Covid issues here is totally off-topic. I do not moderate this section though, so it's just my personal opinion.

Archimid

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Re: Tesla glory/failure
« Reply #5759 on: July 05, 2020, 12:12:33 PM »
Tesla glory: Taking coronavirus precautions seriously and still have a very successful quarter

Tesla failure: Tesla's CEO, largest shareholder, lead designer and voice, downplaying coronavirus to match Trump's tactic, leading to unnecessary deaths and massive economic losses to almost everyone but himself.

I think this is very much on topic.

If Tesla was doing anti-masker idiocy I would belive the ignorance part. But Tesla is performing like a science-based institution should. Tesla has tight procedures in place, they are masking and they are tracing. They will be infected, but the chance for large outbreaks is minimized.

Yet, Elon is spewing Trump lies in his twitter that have a functional impact on the rest of the economy and health of society.

This is a good place to try to figure out the duality of this Tesla glory/failure.
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gerontocrat

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Re: Tesla glory/failure
« Reply #5760 on: July 05, 2020, 02:00:33 PM »
Elon Musk is now a fully-paid-up-card-carrying member of the super rich.

Remember when Google was "Do No Evil"? Now Google has an army of finance people dedicated to the proposition that very rich companies and the very rich people in them do not pay taxes. Taxes are for poor people.

How long before Elon Musk & Tesla join Google et al and become just another mega-giga-tera-corp run by the Masters of The Universe? I am sure moving to Texas is partly to move the business to a low-regulation / no-regulation environment. Meanwhile, since Tesla is the only EV manufacturer with sufficient critical mass to quickly move to EV mass production in the millions, it is the price that must be paid.
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BeeKnees

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Re: Tesla glory/failure
« Reply #5761 on: July 05, 2020, 02:18:27 PM »
Musk backing Kanye West to weaken the democrat vote and help trump is a new low.

GoSouthYoungins

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Re: Tesla glory/failure
« Reply #5762 on: July 05, 2020, 03:54:44 PM »
GoSouthYoungins
Re: Tesla glory/failure
« Reply #3931 on: October 14, 2019, 05:49:55 AM

The fed hit the money button, and HARD.

More currency was created in the first half of 2020 than existed in 2000. Obviously they can't go BK with the fed buying their junk bonds, lol.

It is still a cash burning fraud, masquerading as a climate savior enterprise.

But now I don't get an "I told you so" until the perp-walk, which due to politics may never happen. Sad face.
big time oops

GoSouthYoungins

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Re: Tesla glory/failure
« Reply #5763 on: July 05, 2020, 03:59:14 PM »
Elon Musk is the kind of person that could get 1000 ventilators even when the federal government couldn't find them. Assuming misinformation is naive.

You just so uninformed. You fall for fElon's simplest tricks. This ( ^^above^^ ) never happened.

The machines Musk "got" were publicly available because they were not the machines that the hospital were after!!!!!

How do you think it works??? Musk rubs some South African magic dust on his cheeks and poof: 1000 ventilators that nobody previously didn't exist appear.
big time oops

GoSouthYoungins

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Re: Tesla glory/failure
« Reply #5764 on: July 05, 2020, 04:06:11 PM »
This is a good place to try to figure out the duality of this Tesla glory/failure.

Tesla seems like it is basking in glory. The one day / failure. Wait what? Just like that? I thought this was a great company? They never made any money? They were playing accounting games the whole time? What happened to our $200 billion? It wilted faster than a Semper Augustus.
big time oops

kassy

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Re: Tesla glory/failure
« Reply #5765 on: July 05, 2020, 06:46:05 PM »
I repeat, the discussion of personal Elon Musk and Covid issues here is totally off-topic. I do not moderate this section though, so it's just my personal opinion.

And quoting from the opening post:
This thread is to be used for the most part to post articles that Tesla Inc. is either successfully implementing its business model, or that it's failing to do so.

The covid side step sort of stopped (except the vents).
The Elon Musk part is muddier but at least there is very little use to rehash old stories.

Lets focus on Tesla Inc. as requested in the opening post.
Thanks!
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Sigmetnow

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Re: Tesla glory/failure
« Reply #5766 on: July 05, 2020, 09:24:32 PM »
Quote
Elon Musk (@elonmusk) 7/4/20, 11:18 PM  
North American Supercharger usage is now at pre-covid high, Europe about a week behind, China & Asia-Pacific in general doing great
https://twitter.com/elonmusk/status/1279615554270052353
Graph below.
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Archimid

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Re: Tesla glory/failure
« Reply #5767 on: July 05, 2020, 11:31:52 PM »
The thread instructions have been changed several times over the years. I will stick to them even if you do so unfairly, you know why? Because I speak the truth and you are hiding truths. Edit: Elon won in the past because he stuck to scientific truths. Sticking to lies will eat his magic.

Do what you have to do mods, but "Interesting discussions" is also part of the forum.
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NeilT

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Re: Tesla glory/failure
« Reply #5768 on: July 06, 2020, 01:00:18 AM »
It is very hard to distance what Musk, says from impacts on Tesla.

When Musk speaks out on such a very sensitive topic as Covid, it is a valid and relevant topic to the success or failure of Tesla.  Mainly because it alienates many of Tesla's strongest supporters.

That being said, I think the discussion is about done.
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NeilT

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Re: Tesla glory/failure
« Reply #5769 on: July 06, 2020, 01:05:17 AM »
On a totally different topic Tesla has been hard at work on the AI code for FSD.  It has spawned a new patwnon how to adjust the AI fu cations to the available hardware.

A must to allow for modelling and training on large host systems but execution and driving on Mobile hardware.

https://www.tesmanian.com/blogs/tesmanian-blog/patent
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Sigmetnow

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Re: Tesla glory/failure
« Reply #5770 on: July 06, 2020, 01:36:50 AM »
It is very hard to distance what Musk, says from impacts on Tesla.

When Musk speaks out on such a very sensitive topic as Covid, it is a valid and relevant topic to the success or failure of Tesla.  Mainly because it alienates many of Tesla's strongest supporters.

That being said, I think the discussion is about done.

There are plenty of people who disagree with what Musk said, and strongly communicate their displeasure.  So what?

I have not seen any Tesla supporter drop their support because of what Elon has said about COVID.  I have not seen anyone on Twitter proclaim they were canceling their order because of it. (And Tesla demand would not be hurt by a few cancellations, anyway.  Tesla can sell every car it makes.) Those who disagree with him on COVID, more importantly do agree with Tesla’s objectives, and they base their actions on that.  Trolls and shorts have, ironically, strengthened our resolve to see Tesla succeed, no matter what.

If the Board thought Musk’s statements hurt the company, they would certainly get him to stop opining publicly.  But differing opinions on COVID today are unavoidable, and free publicity does have benefits. 
« Last Edit: July 06, 2020, 01:42:11 AM by Sigmetnow »
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Sigmetnow

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Re: Tesla glory/failure
« Reply #5771 on: July 06, 2020, 02:37:17 AM »
This is how worried Tesla is. ;) ;D

Elon made good on his promise of shortshorts for the shorters…
Quote
Elon Musk (@elonmusk) 7/5/20, 4:01 PM
Limited edition short shorts now available at Tesla.com/shortshorts
https://twitter.com/elonmusk/status/1279867930289647617
~ Only $69.420!!

Quote
Tesla Short Shorts
Description
Celebrate summer with Tesla Short Shorts. Run like the wind or entertain like Liberace with our red satin and gold trim design. Relax poolside or lounge indoors year-round with our limited-edition Tesla Short Shorts, featuring our signature Tesla logo in front with “S3XY” across the back. Enjoy exceptional comfort from the closing bell.
https://shop.tesla.com/product/tesla-short-shorts
Elon Musk:  Dang, we broke the website

Quote
Whole Mars (@WholeMarsBlog) 7/5/20, 7:45 PM
Let’s recap for those who are new here:
1. Teala short sellers mounted a viscious disinformation campaign against @elonmusk, worst ever seen
2. Elon won, Tesla stonk goes $180 to $1200
3. Elon puts flaming red short shorts on Tesla store for $69.420
4. Instantly sold out

Elon Musk (@elonmusk) 7/5/20, 8:16 PM
Nailed it
https://twitter.com/elonmusk/status/1279932209877512192
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Archimid

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Re: Tesla glory/failure
« Reply #5772 on: July 06, 2020, 10:57:14 AM »
If Elon follows Trump, the mission is over. If this happens Tesla will no longer be a beacon of hope but a force of darkness. Lies and deceit will substitute hard work and engineering. And then when the good times for Tesla are over, the snake (Trump) will bite, take whatever it wants and leave the remains. We lose our best hope to stop climate change.
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Archimid

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Re: Tesla glory/failure
« Reply #5773 on: July 06, 2020, 11:14:00 AM »
I want to make it clear. I love tesla. I love Elon Musk.  I still think Tesla is key to solve the climate change problem.

Sigmetnow: Thanks for the years of fantastic updates. Your posts about the great things Tesla do cheer me up and have given me much hope over the years. I'm sorry that I'm so openly and harshly criticizing Elon, but I must. Please understand that this criticism of Elon Musk in no way shape or form translate to criticism of you.

In fact, I'm further indebted to you because at the same time I must keep to the primary mission, to solve climate change, which implies saving Tesla,  I must save as many lives in this pandemic as I can. That includes attempting to offset Elon Musk's risk denial propaganda.
I am an energy reservoir seemingly intent on lowering entropy for self preservation.

Sigmetnow

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Re: Tesla glory/failure
« Reply #5774 on: July 06, 2020, 02:42:15 PM »
I want to make it clear. I love tesla. I love Elon Musk.  I still think Tesla is key to solve the climate change problem.

Sigmetnow: Thanks for the years of fantastic updates. Your posts about the great things Tesla do cheer me up and have given me much hope over the years. I'm sorry that I'm so openly and harshly criticizing Elon, but I must. Please understand that this criticism of Elon Musk in no way shape or form translate to criticism of you.

In fact, I'm further indebted to you because at the same time I must keep to the primary mission, to solve climate change, which implies saving Tesla,  I must save as many lives in this pandemic as I can. That includes attempting to offset Elon Musk's risk denial propaganda.

Archimid,
Steady on, old chap. :)

First, not everyone follows Elon or believes what he says.  Else all transportation would be electric by now. ;)

Second, Elon thinks for himself, rather than accepting the general wisdom of the day.  That’s what got us Tesla EVs, cheaper and bigger batteries, and rockets that land themselves.

Third, Elon can change his mind.  He was gung-ho on building fuel tanks for Starship — and Starship itself! — out of composite materials... until he decided to switch everything to stainless steel.  (Which is working out much better, faster, and cheaper.)  On occasion he can even be (gasp!) wrong.  He is, after all, only human — unless, as some have speculated, he really is an alien trying to get home to Mars.

Given his (company’s) efforts designing and building ventilators, and vaccine production software, not to mention the anti-virus precautions working well in his factories,  it’s clear he takes the pandemic seriously.  He might just be a big part of the fight against it, in the long run.  Disagree with him if you like, but let him think about the problem in a different way.
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Sigmetnow

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Re: Tesla glory/failure
« Reply #5775 on: July 06, 2020, 02:47:50 PM »
If Tesla fails as a car company, it should make a clothing line.  And maybe food and beverages.

Tesla crashes site with radiant red “Short Shorts”, pokes fun at 420
https://www.teslarati.com/tesla-short-shorts/

——
Quote
Elon Musk (@elonmusk) 7/6/20, 5:57 AM
@Teslarati Coming soon, our battle with Big Tequila! It’s real.
https://twitter.com/elonmusk/status/1280078425672183809

Tesla ‘Teslaquila’ booze may follow Short Shorts for the ultimate party
https://www.teslarati.com/tesla-teslaquila-elon-musk-booze-release-date-short-shorts/amp/
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GoSouthYoungins

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Re: Tesla glory/failure
« Reply #5776 on: July 06, 2020, 03:43:29 PM »
I want to make it clear...I love Elon Musk.

The guy who flies the most recreational private jet miles in the world. The guy who downplays the pandemic to his wide audience. The guy who is supporting Kayne for Prez. Okay.

I still think Tesla is key to solve the climate change problem.

I don't think you understand the extent of the climate problem. Tesla will not solve the climate problem.

ALL transportation is responsible for like 30% of emissions. Passenger cars are only a fraction of that and are the low hanging fruit. And EVs don't reduce emissions down towards zero. (Especially not a Tesla.) A cheap and long last EV will be a big deal, when one is made.

But leaning into passengers cars is stupid. If you think we just slap some green paint of our first world lifestyle and all the sudden climate change will be solved...you're extremely naive.
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Re: Tesla glory/failure
« Reply #5777 on: July 06, 2020, 06:43:12 PM »
Quote
Given his (company’s) efforts designing and building ventilators, and vaccine production software, not to mention the anti-virus precautions working well in his factories,  it’s clear he takes the pandemic seriously.  He might just be a big part of the fight against it, in the long run.  Disagree with him if you like, but let him think about the problem in a different way.

First-principles. Every crazy Elon Musk idea is coupled with a good first principle basis. Then through hard work and determination, Tesla inc makes the first principles ideas come to life, minus efficiency loss.

Tesla inc response to the pandemic followed the first-principles approach.  However, what comes out of Elon Musk twitter feed is not based on first principles. It's based on misinformation and propaganda. Whatever his plan is, he is lying to achieve it.  His lies have a very real and immediate cost in the economy and the health of society.

That is not consistent with his past. In the past, he was misunderstood but his reasoning solid. Now, he is spreading falsehoods. This is different.

All I'm saying is, keep your eyes peeled. Dangerous times ahead. Pandemics are times of change.
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Re: Tesla glory/failure
« Reply #5778 on: July 06, 2020, 07:25:55 PM »
Lets discuss Tesla Inc here.

Make a thread down below to discuss Elon Musk Saint or Satan? and various other angles focusing on Elon instead of Tesla Inc.

I must save as many lives in this pandemic as I can. That includes attempting to offset Elon Musk's risk denial propaganda.

That is not really how the internet works. It´s not like even the fan boys here will automatically agree on that with him never mind all the others that have a more moderate position.
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Re: Tesla glory/failure
« Reply #5779 on: July 06, 2020, 08:12:52 PM »
Elon Musk Saint or Satan?

Neither nor. He is just a person. He happens to be an arrogant asshole with a massive Dunning-Kruger problem. He should just shut up when it's about things out of his range of knowledge but he doesn't.

Does it matter when it comes to Tesla? Have you ever looked up the character of a CEO before you bought a car? Of course not! If anyone does it now it's a bias, not an argument.

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Re: Tesla glory/failure
« Reply #5780 on: July 06, 2020, 08:33:24 PM »
The bearest of the bears, JP Morgan analyst Ryan Brinkman raised his price target for Tesla to $295 per share from $275.
Meanwhile, JMP Securities analyst Joseph Osha raised his TSLA price target from $1,050 to $1,500 per share.

Tesla gets higher price targets from multiple firms amid TSLA’s meteoric rise
 July 6, 2020
Quote
Sentiments surrounding TSLA stock have been quite positive as of late, thanks in no small part to the company’s Q2 vehicle delivery and production report. Tesla broke Wall Street’s expectations by delivering over 90,000 vehicles in Q2, suggesting that the electric car maker may have reached Elon Musk’s goal of breaking even this past quarter. The recent release of Tesla’s Short Shorts also suggests that the company, particularly CEO Elon Musk, is quite optimistic about Q2’s financial results. ...
https://www.teslarati.com/tesla-tsla-bears-raise-price-targets/
 
$TSLA is currently trading up over $100 at $1325.
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Re: Tesla glory/failure
« Reply #5781 on: July 06, 2020, 08:52:50 PM »
Tesla is moving away from an envirommentalist base and into mass market vehicles where the EV advantages outweigh the FF advantages for the purchaser.

As Tesla reaches millions of vehicles sold in hundreds of countries it doesn't matter a crap what he says on his english language Twitter feed.

Tesla are already suppling both hardware and software for balancing the renewable grid.  Does the average utilities customer ask their providor if they are using Tesla tech?  Tesla will start producing the Semi within 18 months, will companies query what he is saying on Twatter? Or will they evaluate the value of the product and the longevity of the company?

By the time the Semi goes production, Tesla will be manufacturing more vehicles outside the US than inside it.

If you take the GSY view, Tesla manufactures a few expensive EV's in Fremont.  If you take the reality view, more people who don't give a crap what Musk writes on his twitter feed will be buying Tesla products than people who either know, or care.
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Re: Tesla glory/failure
« Reply #5782 on: July 06, 2020, 10:13:57 PM »
 NeilT, I share your vision of the medium-term future of Tesla inc.  The problem is that the whole world you just imagined, is dependant on a world order similar to the pre-pandemic world. The world order is changing as we speak in ways that are impossible to understand or predict.

Tesla inc is perfectly positioned to lead the world into a new era of clean energy, but that is only in a happy go lucky future where C19 ends soon. This is entirely doable, as most civilized countries and many states have proven. However, that only happens if compliance with sanitary measures is universal.

Compliance with sanitary measures increases if people understand the risk and are given clear and explicit instructions from their leaders, lowering R.

If leaders sabotage compliance, then the pandemic is extended.

While the pandemic is extended, the money printers are running at full swing buying the market. Tesla stock value keeps going up.

It gets better than that. With Trump in charge, there is no accountability, if he picked Tesla as a winner as he did (reference available upon request), then Tesla will win for as long as the supreme leader says so.

Tesla can't lose. Not only will the stock skyrocket, but Tesla also counts with a lawless federal government. Soon enough the contract for fleets of EV will come flying in, at special government price, of course. Regulatory constraints? Poof, gone. The dear leader knows best.

That is unless Musk falls from grace of the dear leader. Or perhaps the dear leader interests lie in Russia and Saudi oil, after all, Tesla inc may become the target of the wrath of the dear leader.

Then the economy and natural organic business environment that would have protected Tesla won't be there, because it fell to the chaos of coronavirus + climate change. Then the mission is over. Tesla Failure

But if people comply and we eradicate this virus soon and remove Trump, then NeilT vision comes true. Tesla is much closer to success. Tesla Glory.

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Re: Tesla glory/failure
« Reply #5783 on: July 07, 2020, 03:35:31 AM »
TSLA short interest
Quote
Ihor Dusaniwsky (@ihors3) 7/2/20, 3:03 PM
$TSLA short int is $15.84BN;14.14MM shs shorted;9.6% of float;0.30% fee.Shs shorted down -1.81MM shs, -11.3%,over last 30 days as price rose +25% & down -1.09MM shs,-7.2%, last week. Shorts down -$15.9BN in 2020 mark-to-market losses;down -$1.33BN on [July 2] +8.4% move 
https://twitter.com/ihors3/status/1278766211111833600
Graph of $TSLA vs #shares shorted, below.

Quote
Ihor Dusaniwsky:  Since 2010 I estimate $TSLA short sellers lost -$30.45 billion in net-of-financing mark-to-market losses …
https://twitter.com/ihors3/status/1278770032038817793


—— TSLA stock price
Mon July 6 TSLA Closed up 13.48%; +162.92, to $1,371.58.
At 7:59 pm, after-market trades ended at an additional +61.42,  $1,433.00
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Re: Tesla glory/failure
« Reply #5784 on: July 07, 2020, 03:06:28 PM »
Tesla is moving away from an envirommentalist base and into mass market vehicles where the EV advantages outweigh the FF advantages for the purchaser.

As Tesla reaches millions of vehicles sold in hundreds of countries it doesn't matter a crap what he says on his english language Twitter feed.

Tesla are already suppling both hardware and software for balancing the renewable grid.  Does the average utilities customer ask their providor if they are using Tesla tech?  Tesla will start producing the Semi within 18 months, will companies query what he is saying on Twatter? Or will they evaluate the value of the product and the longevity of the company?

By the time the Semi goes production, Tesla will be manufacturing more vehicles outside the US than inside it.

If you take the GSY view, Tesla manufactures a few expensive EV's in Fremont.  If you take the reality view, more people who don't give a crap what Musk writes on his twitter feed will be buying Tesla products than people who either know, or care.

By now it's fair to acknowledge that Tesla has pulled off the unthinkable. The company has transformed itself from a concept car building startup to an international automaker. It remains to be seen whether it will become a successful one.

Somehow many Tesla discussions miss this and concentrate on something else, such as Elon Musk's person or tweets.

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Re: Tesla glory/failure
« Reply #5785 on: July 07, 2020, 05:12:55 PM »
Lets discuss Tesla Inc here.

Make a thread down below to discuss Elon Musk Saint or Satan? and various other angles focusing on Elon instead of Tesla Inc.

I must save as many lives in this pandemic as I can. That includes attempting to offset Elon Musk's risk denial propaganda.

That is not really how the internet works. It´s not like even the fan boys here will automatically agree on that with him never mind all the others that have a more moderate position.

Respectable idea. Seems like it makes sense. BUT...we have kinda hashed that out in the past with Neven overseeing. Decision was that Musk and Tesla are tethered and thus it's all germane.

If you are going to over-ride that now, so be it, but I think it's a mistake and against the precedent previously set on this thread.
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Re: Tesla glory/failure
« Reply #5786 on: July 07, 2020, 11:57:55 PM »
Nothing to see here.
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Re: Tesla glory/failure
« Reply #5787 on: July 08, 2020, 10:02:00 AM »
Lets discuss Tesla Inc here.

Respectable idea. Seems like it makes sense. BUT...we have kinda hashed that out in the past with Neven overseeing. Decision was that Musk and Tesla are tethered and thus it's all germane.

If you are going to over-ride that now, so be it, but I think it's a mistake and against the precedent previously set on this thread.

If it is something new involving a Musk tweet it can of course be posted.

But short or long posts which are actually just a posters opinion on Musk are irrelevant. The two extreme sides will not agree and for the posters in the middle it´s just a distraction.
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Re: Tesla glory/failure
« Reply #5788 on: July 08, 2020, 10:49:18 AM »
Can you be clear in what you want for this thread? I'll try to play by the rules you set but right now all I know is that you don't want me to talk bad about Elon Musk and want the thread to remain tesla centric. Easy, but please specify the rules.

Also, let's clear some things.

If any of you paid attention over the years, you probably have a lot of money riding here. Good for you if you made some.  But please understand, the money will get in the way of your objectivity.  Do not let it! 
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Re: Tesla glory/failure
« Reply #5789 on: July 08, 2020, 11:40:50 AM »
Here is my advice:
Tesla is mature enough that you can simply talk about Tesla the company, its products, its strategy, its results, its plans, rather than Musk the person. Neither wet-eyed adoration nor flaming hatred are appropriate for this discussion. Tesla-related tweets are relevant, but his personal life is irrelevant.
He had a child with a weird name from his partner with weird name. So what. He called someone a pedo. So what. He is a crazy Covid denier and often an idiot. So what. He says he supports Kanye West. So what. He is a billionaire. So what. He came from South Africa. So what. SpaceX. Irrelevant. Boring. Boring. Etc.
Tesla-related stuff, discuss. Elon Musk, irrelevant at this stage except where he deals specifically with Tesla.
Just my two cents.

FYI, if you assume many here are riding Tesla's roller coaster with real money, I think you are mistaken. But in any case judgement should not be affected by investments, if anything one must be more objective when invested.

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Re: Tesla glory/failure
« Reply #5790 on: July 08, 2020, 11:45:56 AM »
I add my two cents as well. Disclaimer: I'm not owning any Tesla stocks.

"posters opinion on Musk are irrelevant" sounds pretty straight forward to me.

If it's about Tesla in relationship with him, that's fine. Is it about Musk as a person and unrelated to Tesla, then it's no content for this thread.

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Re: Tesla glory/failure
« Reply #5791 on: July 08, 2020, 12:02:23 PM »
This:

Quote
He is a crazy Covid denier

is in a different category than this:

Quote
He had a child with a weird name from his partner with weird name. He called someone a pedo.  He says he supports Kanye West. He is a billionaire. He came from South Africa. SpaceX. Irrelevant. Boring. Boring. Etc.

1. Elon's twitter is an official communication from Tesla that over time has proven to have significant operational and financial impact over the company. 

2. Elon's C19 risk denial had an operational impact on the Fremont factory and very likely has had an impact in California's response. Details of it up thread.

3. The future of the company is intimately tied with the decisions Elon makes today, like for example providing propaganda and cover for a tyrannical President of the united states. Sadly for truth and freedom, calling Trump a tyrant seems inflammatory when it is a legal fact. Tyrants like Trump usually are supported by industrialists like Musk and his industry.  That Elon Musk seems to be following Trump into the abyss is relevant for the future of Tesla Inc and has very little to do with personality quirks.


Quote
But in any case judgement should not be affected by investments, if anything one must be more objective when invested.

That's when judgement has the highest chance for cloudiness. When money is involved. It requires will power and discipline to set money aside and look at the bigger picture.
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Re: Tesla glory/failure
« Reply #5792 on: July 08, 2020, 12:43:13 PM »
The thread risks becoming just cheerleading for a multinational.

Perhaps that's because Tesla is no longer even remotely at risk of failure.  I would like to have thought the ethics and methods used by this company and it's founder could become part of the conversation.

I do think dismissal of the risks of covid, support of a person who is not known for caring about the environment and wants to keep a fossil fuel shill in power are relevant to this.  As is being prepared to cancel orders and give the car to someone else.  As someone looking to buy a Tesla they are aspects that make me hesitate. 


bluice

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Re: Tesla glory/failure
« Reply #5793 on: July 08, 2020, 12:46:57 PM »


1. Elon's twitter is an official communication from Tesla that over time has proven to have significant operational and financial impact over the company. 

2. Elon's C19 risk denial had an operational impact on the Fremont factory and very likely has had an impact in California's response. Details of it up thread.

3. The future of the company is intimately tied with the decisions Elon makes today, like for example providing propaganda and cover for a tyrannical President of the united states. Sadly for truth and freedom, calling Trump a tyrant seems inflammatory when it is a legal fact. Tyrants like Trump usually are supported by industrialists like Musk and his industry.  That Elon Musk seems to be following Trump into the abyss is relevant for the future of Tesla Inc and has very little to do with personality quirks.
1. When Musk tweets official Tesla stuff it's relevant to this thread. Most of his tweets are not

2. Musk decisions to re-open Fremont a week or two earlier has a minuscule impact on Tesla's overall production figures. I doubt it has any effect on Tesla's 2020 results although the pandemic itself definitely has. Not much importance for Tesla as a company.

3. If Biden wins, as now seems likely, Tesla will not "follow Trump into the abyss". This is just nonsense.

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Re: Tesla glory/failure
« Reply #5794 on: July 08, 2020, 02:43:18 PM »
I think it is somewhat self deluding to believe that the largest shareholder and CEO of the company has no impact on the future of the company.

If we are going to take a step back and assess it as any other business, taking these two factors into account means anything he says will have an impact.

Whether that impact will imperil the company is a other matter entirely. I don't believe that it will now. Tesla is finally moving out of the market where common people believe it is an expensive sports car they do not need and doesn't travel as far as they need.

That is far more important than anything Musk says about his personal opinion on something which is nothing to do with Tesla products and a large proportion of those who might buy either won't care or may even agree with him.

On the other hand, with Starlink live and Spacex heading for a $trillion company and Musk dumps both his shares and CEO position of Tesla and I personally believe that Tesla will become like Apple without Jobs in the 90's.

So, to my mind, it is relevant to discuss but only in the correct proportion.

If we can have someone on the forum telling us that over 1m vehicles sold and 3 fabrication plants in various stages of production and construction are fake, a fraud and a scam, then we can allow a little time to discuss whether the public airing of a position by a CEO and largest shareholder, is pertinent to the success or failure of a company.

If you are British you may understand what Doing a Ratner means.  If you don't, try looking it up.
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Re: Tesla glory/failure
« Reply #5795 on: July 08, 2020, 02:52:09 PM »
Neil, I doubt anybody thinks Elon Musk is irrelevant for Tesla. What is happening here is that discussion starts to revolve around Musk's person, not Tesla.

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Re: Tesla glory/failure
« Reply #5796 on: July 08, 2020, 03:34:25 PM »
Neil, I doubt anybody thinks Elon Musk is irrelevant for Tesla. What is happening here is that discussion starts to revolve around Musk's person, not Tesla.

Yes some have private crusades like it all being fake or whatever Elon says about covid. Those are not changing anyones opinion here let alone in the real world. And here they are just a distraction.
If you still want to discuss it make a thread in The Rest (name suggestion above).

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Re: Tesla glory/failure
« Reply #5797 on: July 08, 2020, 06:43:30 PM »
I hope these are examples of what is OK to post.

Quote
Tesla may break even this quarter, based on an email Musk sent Tesla employees this week. That would be an achievement in current economic conditions. If the company manages to pull off a profit, that will help it qualify for inclusion in the S&P 500 index. Inclusion in the index would automatically increase Tesla's share price because a large number of index funds would start buying shares of Tesla. Investors' expectation that this will happen soon is likely behind some of the rise in the company's share price.

Tesla spent the last several years logging unprofitable quarters while Musk fended off questions about its long-term prospects. That might remind you of another iconic entrepreneur--Jeff Bezos--because Amazon also failed to consistently make a profit for years, even as its market penetration grew. During those years, Bezos ignored critics who argued that an unprofitable company is always a bad investment. From today's vantage point, both have proved their case that building for the long term is more important than quarterly or even annual profits. And that you're better off not listening to naysayers if you want to build a great empire. …
https://www.msn.com/en-us/money/smallbusiness/why-elon-musk-just-might-be-the-new-jeff-bezos/ar-BB16jZaY


——-
In an ironic turn of events, Tesla CEO Elon Musk ends up making millions of dollars from his SEC settlement over his “funding secured” tweet.
https://electrek.co/2020/07/07/tesla-tsla-elon-musk-millions-sec-settlement/
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Re: Tesla glory/failure
« Reply #5798 on: July 08, 2020, 07:15:32 PM »
Yip
The car market has contracted a lot .
Legacy industry has thousands of unsold cars sitting in lots losing money and will have to idle plants for months to clear the excess production.                     
Tesla is  selling all it can make.
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Re: Tesla glory/failure
« Reply #5799 on: July 08, 2020, 08:16:43 PM »
And I still think that the lack of airplane aerosols is worsening the impact of the GAAC.

Elon is doing his part to save the ice.
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