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Author Topic: Arctic Ocean salinity, temperature and waves  (Read 35143 times)

b_lumenkraft

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Re: Arctic Ocean salinity, temperature and waves
« Reply #250 on: May 29, 2019, 09:57:50 AM »
Mercator model, salinity 0m vs. 30m for the month of May.


johnm33

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Re: Arctic Ocean salinity, temperature and waves
« Reply #251 on: May 29, 2019, 04:32:52 PM »
I looked a little deeper, I ctrl+ this to 170% and play at 200
http://bulletin.mercator-ocean.fr/en/permalink/PSY4/animation/3/20190401/20190527/2/4
it seems Atlantic water has circumnavigated the Arctic at depth.

johnm33

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johnm33

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Re: Arctic Ocean salinity, temperature and waves
« Reply #253 on: June 02, 2019, 10:03:31 PM »
^ Error I meant to post this which if I'm not mistaken is showing the melt taking place as deep Atlantic water is sucked into and washed out of Amundsen and Mclure. This could be good or bad since it seems the surface will be fresher for the whole gyration, but unless the outflow of Fram/Nares slow it won't matter[help].

johnm33

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Re: Arctic Ocean salinity, temperature and waves
« Reply #254 on: June 03, 2019, 10:43:51 AM »
I'm reading these three images as indicating the increasing penetration of Atlantic water, it has now, at depth, surrounded Greenland and most of Ellesmere. The third one shows how much it has penetrated along the CAA continental shelf. Whenever there's a tidal forcing or a low/high moves into/over the basin the deep water will wash up onto the shelf increasing bottom melt.
This will help in the opening up of the CAA to increasing ice export.
Then we have the increasing temp and melt spreading down Greenlands west coast from Nares all the way to Disko where the Irminger current brings it's own warming waters to.



https://earth.nullschool.net/#current/ocean/primary/waves/overlay=sea_surface_temp_anomaly/orthographic=-53.36,71.85,1389/loc=-61.503,75.588

b_lumenkraft

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Re: Arctic Ocean salinity, temperature and waves
« Reply #255 on: June 03, 2019, 11:51:06 AM »
This might be better placed in the stupid question thread, but why isn't the west coast of Greenland so salty at 0m? Shouldn't we see some freshening (i.e. blue tones) due to melting here too at least somewhere along the coastline?

Oh wait, it is actually doing that. Sorry, never mind.
« Last Edit: June 03, 2019, 11:58:58 AM by b_lumenkraft »

johnm33

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Re: Arctic Ocean salinity, temperature and waves
« Reply #256 on: June 03, 2019, 12:46:03 PM »
The glbhycom shows it up better, the denser Atlantic water is energetically driven against the coast forcing the fresh water into central Baffin, where it joins the Arctic waters who's relative inertia keeps them to the Canadian side. The difference in density means the Atlantic waters can constantly stream into the fjords whilst the fresh-er water exits on the surface. This can only get worse through to sept.
Ignore the warning to the link, it's a US navy website best zoomed in on rather than displayed 'forum' sized

b_lumenkraft

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Re: Arctic Ocean salinity, temperature and waves
« Reply #257 on: June 03, 2019, 01:05:41 PM »
That's very interesting! Thanks a lot, John.

Stephan

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Re: Arctic Ocean salinity, temperature and waves
« Reply #258 on: June 03, 2019, 07:49:39 PM »
The glbhycom shows it up better, the denser Atlantic water is energetically driven against the coast forcing the fresh water into central Baffin, where it joins the Arctic waters who's relative inertia keeps them to the Canadian side. The difference in density means the Atlantic waters can constantly stream into the fjords whilst the fresh-er water exits on the surface. This can only get worse through to sept.
Ignore the warning to the link, it's a US navy website best zoomed in on rather than displayed 'forum' sized
I have no access to this website for weeks now (using Chrome as web browser). Is there any other chance to access this valuable information?

b_lumenkraft

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Re: Arctic Ocean salinity, temperature and waves
« Reply #259 on: June 03, 2019, 08:01:02 PM »
Stephan, are you using http instead of https in the URL by chance?

johnm33

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Re: Arctic Ocean salinity, temperature and waves
« Reply #260 on: June 03, 2019, 08:46:41 PM »
This animation shows the temp. anomaly growing and moving south from Nares
Not as good as an animation, the sss from hycom


uniquorn

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Re: Arctic Ocean salinity, temperature and waves
« Reply #261 on: June 04, 2019, 12:32:44 AM »
worldview aqua modis overlaid onto mercator 34m salinity at 50%, jun1-3

b_lumenkraft

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Re: Arctic Ocean salinity, temperature and waves
« Reply #262 on: June 04, 2019, 07:46:40 AM »
Hey Uniquorn, glad to see you posting again. :)

Would it be possible to have this for the 0m salinity too?

uniquorn

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Re: Arctic Ocean salinity, temperature and waves
« Reply #263 on: June 04, 2019, 10:28:09 AM »
Very busy here at the moment.

b_lumenkraft

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Re: Arctic Ocean salinity, temperature and waves
« Reply #264 on: June 04, 2019, 10:35:18 AM »
No hurry. :)

Stephan

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Re: Arctic Ocean salinity, temperature and waves
« Reply #265 on: June 04, 2019, 07:02:03 PM »
Stephan, are you using http instead of https in the URL by chance?
If I write https in the URL it is marked in red and striked through. This is the message that follows:
"Dies ist keine sichere Verbindung
Hacker k├Ânnten versuchen, Ihre Daten von www7320.nrlssc.navy.mil zu stehlen, zum Beispiel Passw├Ârter, Nachrichten oder Kreditkartendaten. Weitere Informationen
NET::ERR_CERT_REVOKED"

b_lumenkraft

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Re: Arctic Ocean salinity, temperature and waves
« Reply #266 on: June 04, 2019, 07:05:11 PM »
They forgot to update their certificate.

You should be able to visit the site by using Firefox.

Someone should send them a mail, telling them their certificate has expired.

johnm33

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Re: Arctic Ocean salinity, temperature and waves
« Reply #267 on: June 04, 2019, 07:49:50 PM »
Too much gets lost when I try to make a gif so link to previous animation
https://www7320.nrlssc.navy.mil/GLBhycomcice1-12/navo/arcticsss_nowcast_anim30d.gif

try zooming in on that
and a straight temp. animation from mercator, I play this at 200ms and zoom to 170%
http://bulletin.mercator-ocean.fr/en/permalink/PSY4/animation/3/20190401/20190613/1/1
that's not too bad, it shows the ice forced against Ellesmere as it moves through Nares and some impression of just how much Atlantic water is forcing it's way through beneath the ice, given the huge displacement of Baffins existing ice cover. Most of Baffin/Arctic ice seems to be making it's way into Hudson, I guess the fresh melt/discharge waters are too, so a prolonged winter and cool summer for the bay.
« Last Edit: June 05, 2019, 08:48:50 PM by johnm33 »

johnm33

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Re: Arctic Ocean salinity, temperature and waves
« Reply #268 on: June 05, 2019, 09:24:34 PM »
The salinity gif

There's more than one way to read this but my take is as stated above, Atlantic waters are now moving at depth down the west coast of Greenland speeding the melt of every glacier sitting in a deep fjord.
« Last Edit: June 05, 2019, 09:36:23 PM by johnm33 »

b_lumenkraft

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Re: Arctic Ocean salinity, temperature and waves
« Reply #269 on: June 05, 2019, 09:41:54 PM »
Atlantic waters are now moving at depth down the west coast of Greenland

John, i've seen that before. Do you have the impression it increased? And if so, is Baffin Bay also Atlantifying?

johnm33

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Re: Arctic Ocean salinity, temperature and waves
« Reply #270 on: June 06, 2019, 12:56:22 AM »
" Do you have the impression it increased?" Yes but by how much and whether it's temporary IDK??
" And if so, is Baffin Bay also Atlantifying?" Not sure if I'd call it that, the Atlantic water [from the north] such as it is will be diluted by meltwater from Greenland, so less saline nearer neutral kinetically and either cooling Hudson or the N.Atlantic. From the south the Irminger current will keep grinding on but it too will, probably, be held in check by increased flow from the north.

b_lumenkraft

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Re: Arctic Ocean salinity, temperature and waves
« Reply #271 on: June 06, 2019, 06:43:55 AM »
Thanks for your opinion, John.

Let's keep that observed. ;)

FishOutofWater

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Re: Arctic Ocean salinity, temperature and waves
« Reply #272 on: June 09, 2019, 03:32:32 AM »
The Coriolis effect causes water masses to turn to the right or go northwards on the west coast of Greenland or southwards on the east coast of Canada. The same effect works in narrow passages like the Nares strait. When water masses interact, eddies are the result.

johnm33

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Re: Arctic Ocean salinity, temperature and waves
« Reply #273 on: June 09, 2019, 01:34:47 PM »
The Coriolis effect causes water masses to turn to the right or go northwards on the west coast of Greenland or southwards on the east coast of Canada. The same effect works in narrow passages like the Nares strait. When water masses interact, eddies are the result.
and yet there's a deep current of Atlantic water that flows down the Greenland side, I understand this only by assuming that it retains some of the inertia that carried it eastwards to eventually pass between Iceland and Norway, Arctic waters lack that momentum and pass through on the Ellesmere side.
The image and first link are both at 100m., I'm assuming again, the higher salinity in the image as a proxy for Atlantic waters and the temp. anomaly against Greenland in north Baffin the same. 

http://bulletin.mercator-ocean.fr/en/permalink/PSY4/20190618/map/3/3/3#4/55.60/-102.44
http://bulletin.mercator-ocean.fr/en/permalink/PSY4/20190618/map/3/11/1#3/52.75/-105.91

johnm33

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Re: Arctic Ocean salinity, temperature and waves
« Reply #274 on: June 11, 2019, 04:17:15 PM »
I'm thinking that Beaufort has become a killing zone for any myi that makes it past the garlic press, so given the apparent vorticity taking place there I looked at whats going on at depth in the mercator model 300m salinity

oops pressed post instead of preview,
What I think is happening is that as the surface ice/water is being pushed away by winds and the surface thrust of Amundsen tides, deeper water is being drawn into both Mclure and Amundsen, this, i think, is Atlantic waters which have been drawn along the shelf and being very kinetically uncormfortable is leading to extreme vorticity which reaches to the surface then gets caught in the gyre and moves west.

Hycom sea ice thickness above
and here is A-Teams latest Ascat, which if anything looks worse than the models.
« Last Edit: June 11, 2019, 04:50:29 PM by johnm33 »

uniquorn

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Re: Arctic Ocean salinity, temperature and waves
« Reply #275 on: June 11, 2019, 09:27:22 PM »
Would it be possible to have this for the 0m salinity too?
At this time of year 0m salinity probably says more about bottom melt than ocean currents. I find it difficult to interpret.
Here is an update to mercator 34m salinity and worldview terra modis(high contrast), jun1-10.
Also a closer look at the area north of Svalbard using worldview aqua modis, jun1-11, default and very high contrast to show movement of multiple fine fractures.

uniquorn

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Re: Arctic Ocean salinity, temperature and waves
« Reply #276 on: June 11, 2019, 09:42:21 PM »
Update on whoi itp110 showing location, temperature, salinity and density (clockwise). Probably best viewed full screen.
@Pragma, the 'holes' in the profile are normally where the profiler stops for some reason, probably due to strong current, high speed drift, temporary fouling, turbulence etc

RoxTheGeologist

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Re: Arctic Ocean salinity, temperature and waves
« Reply #277 on: June 11, 2019, 11:04:04 PM »
Mercator model, salinity 0m vs. 30m for the month of May.

Note that Mercator uses differing scales at different depths. Very annoying.

b_lumenkraft

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Re: Arctic Ocean salinity, temperature and waves
« Reply #278 on: June 12, 2019, 07:03:33 AM »
Right! I'll include a scale next time.

uniquorn

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Re: Arctic Ocean salinity, temperature and waves
« Reply #279 on: June 12, 2019, 12:39:16 PM »
Ascat sep17-jun11. Still experimenting with the circular mask. The swaths move a little over time.

Rich

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Re: Arctic Ocean salinity, temperature and waves
« Reply #280 on: June 12, 2019, 01:38:57 PM »
Ascat sep17-jun11. Still experimenting with the circular mask. The swaths move a little over time.

Thanks for sharing that. Interesting that the ice at the N.Pole in September has all since departed via Fram. Gives a good sense of the life cycle.

uniquorn

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Re: Arctic Ocean salinity, temperature and waves
« Reply #281 on: June 12, 2019, 01:41:34 PM »
Gives a good sense of the life cycle this year.
For a longer term view please see 2010-2019 here https://forum.arctic-sea-ice.net/index.php/topic,2417.msg188990.html#msg188990

oren

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Re: Arctic Ocean salinity, temperature and waves
« Reply #282 on: June 12, 2019, 02:04:33 PM »
Thanks uniquorn. This is really amazing, and alarming - almost half the ice area that survived last season has been exported, mostly to the Atlantic Front, and some of it spread over the open water in the Beaufort. Hopefully it's a smaller fraction of last year's surviving volume. But still with most of the CAB covered by FYI, it's a setup for very sharp drops later in the season even with average weather.

johnm33

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Re: Arctic Ocean salinity, temperature and waves
« Reply #283 on: June 12, 2019, 04:44:46 PM »
moon, thanks uniquorn bit amateur hour but have to start somewhere.
maybe we need a pack rotation thread just to keep yours and A-Teams work easily accesible?
Just to illustrate the vortice[?] action a little, temp., opening, salinity and ice strength from Hycom


and looking at nullschool for about the same time no atmospheric cause afaics. https://earth.nullschool.net/#2019/06/07/0000Z/wind/surface/level/overlay=mean_sea_level_pressure/orthographic=-42.86,82.60,512/loc=-131.224,77.015
modified gif
« Last Edit: June 12, 2019, 07:23:10 PM by johnm33 »

uniquorn

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Re: Arctic Ocean salinity, temperature and waves
« Reply #284 on: June 13, 2019, 12:01:19 AM »
Cyclone sitting over the beaufort for a few days might stir things up a bit more.

The low concentration area north of Svalbard starting to show again, even through the fairly constant export. Worldview aqua modis, high contrast and noaa bathymetry, jun11.
https://go.nasa.gov/2X4StFP

Glen Koehler

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Re: Arctic Ocean salinity, temperature and waves
« Reply #285 on: June 13, 2019, 12:43:27 AM »
RE #279   Are there full season versions of this video available from past years?  Would be very interesting for comparison.  I hope we have future updates of this video, it's the best thing I've seen for representing pack rotation and export.   

     Apart from the recent high temperature weather forecasts, it seems that low extent on the Pacific side; recent rapid and accelerating deterioration along the Siberian coast; and ice condition and mobility are the three big stories so far this melting season. 

     But I also see on Wipneus chart that Fram Strait export as measured by ice Extent was at normal level for May.  So I may be overeacting to the pack motion. 

    The video in Uniquorn's post shows the Nares Strait as a nasty leak shuttling ice out of the Lincoln Sea at a rapid pace.  Since Nares opening was early this year, that makes me think that overall export is an increased source of ice loss this year, and may be disproportionately removing what little 4 and 5 year old ice was left.

 

Shared Humanity

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Re: Arctic Ocean salinity, temperature and waves
« Reply #286 on: June 13, 2019, 03:09:22 AM »
    The video in Uniquorn's post shows the Nares Strait as a nasty leak shuttling ice out of the Lincoln Sea at a rapid pace.  Since Nares opening was early this year, that makes me think that overall export is an increased source of ice loss this year, and may be disproportionately removing what little 4 and 5 year old ice was left.

The Nares was never officially closed IMO.

Tor Bejnar

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Re: Arctic Ocean salinity, temperature and waves
« Reply #287 on: June 13, 2019, 04:46:16 AM »
Who's to say if "Nares was closed (or not)" this year?  Certainly the Lincoln Sea Polynya arch prevented Arctic Ocean floes from entering the Strait for about a month.  We watched a 'race' in late February and March:
  • The Lincoln Sea arch stopped crumbling about February 17, 2019
  • The last 'old' ice in the Lincoln Sea entered Nares Straight about February 27
  • The last of the 'old' ice floes exited into Baffin Bay about March 26
  • The Lincoln Sea arch had several 'minor' edge collapses starting March 5
  • The March 5 edge ice entered Nares Strait about March 19
  • The Lincoln Sea arch totally collapsed about March 20
Arctic ice is healthy for children and other living things.

uniquorn

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Re: Arctic Ocean salinity, temperature and waves
« Reply #288 on: June 13, 2019, 03:34:18 PM »
RE #279   Are there full season versions of this video available from past years?
please see 2010-2019 here https://forum.arctic-sea-ice.net/index.php/topic,2417.msg188990.html#msg188990