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binntho

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Re: Arctic Ocean salinity, temperature and waves
« Reply #350 on: July 01, 2019, 12:52:06 PM »
I just realised that I've been totally trolled! I've been well and truly duped into one of the stupidest discussion I've ever seen on this forum all the years I've been here.

I apologize and have hereby stopped writing on the subject.

b_lumenkraft

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Re: Arctic Ocean salinity, temperature and waves
« Reply #351 on: July 01, 2019, 01:04:21 PM »
I have a video ...

This might be one of the most beautiful YouTube videos i've ever seen.

Thanks so much for sharing!

Rich

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Re: Arctic Ocean salinity, temperature and waves
« Reply #352 on: July 01, 2019, 01:04:32 PM »
I just realised that I've been totally trolled! I've been well and truly duped into one of the stupidest discussion I've ever seen on this forum all the years I've been here.

I apologize and have hereby stopped writing on the subject.

I'm sorry, but this is only piece of the argument that I'm certain about. You weren't being trolled. I may be wrong and missing something very fundamental, but I'm not disingenuous.

You're efforts at mind-reading are a failure in this instance.

uniquorn

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Re: Arctic Ocean salinity, temperature and waves
« Reply #353 on: July 01, 2019, 01:30:59 PM »
107, the bathymetry thereabouts is extremely complex.
The profiler on itp107 started having serious problems moving after it turned north along the line of the chukchi plateau. Either it experienced a traumatic event, damaging the traction drive, or it is struggling with turbulent water combined with relatively high drift. Motor current is not peaking that high so maybe the traction wheel is slipping. Heading north again today so is probably bumping back over the same bit of sea bed.
Quote
Larger motor currents are observed at times of fast ice floe motion when larger wire angles develop and drag forces on the profiler are increased.

FishOutofWater

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Re: Arctic Ocean salinity, temperature and waves
« Reply #354 on: July 01, 2019, 01:52:27 PM »
Instead of making stuff up about winds and waves, you all might consider reading articles in the literature. You might start here to learn about what's happening in the Bering strait.
https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0079661117302215

As to my earlier post in this thread, Frivolous points out elsewhere that the summer water layer may not interact with the surface layers. However, Ekman pumping and eddies in the Beaufort sea may bring some of that stored heat to the surface. Ekman pumping is important along the continental shelf margin of the Beaufort sea when high pressure is sustained and easterly winds blow for days. I'm not sure what's causing the apparent mixing now that buoy 110 is reporting.

uniquorn

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Re: Arctic Ocean salinity, temperature and waves
« Reply #355 on: July 01, 2019, 02:46:10 PM »
<>I'm not sure what's causing the apparent mixing now that buoy 110 is reporting.
It doesn't look like there is much mixing. At day180, the last complete profile yesterday, 7m-50m is warming up a bit and salinity has dropped. The profile contours don't display incomplete profiles very well (imho).
whoi itp110 temperature/salinity day158-180 and whoi profile contours, jul1
edit:struggled to upload files correctly
« Last Edit: July 01, 2019, 02:56:26 PM by uniquorn »

gerontocrat

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Re: Arctic Ocean salinity, temperature and waves
« Reply #356 on: July 01, 2019, 03:09:33 PM »
Instead of making stuff up about winds and waves, you all might consider reading articles in the literature. You might start here to learn about what's happening in the Bering strait.
https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0079661117302215

As to my earlier post in this thread, Frivolous points out elsewhere that the summer water layer may not interact with the surface layers. However, Ekman pumping and eddies in the Beaufort sea may bring some of that stored heat to the surface. Ekman pumping is important along the continental shelf margin of the Beaufort sea when high pressure is sustained and easterly winds blow for days. I'm not sure what's causing the apparent mixing now that buoy 110 is reporting.
I read it, and from it came away with:-
Quote
A seasonal warming trend in the strait proper in May and June (∼0.04 °C/yr) is reflected in a trend to earlier arrival (0.9 ± 0.8 days/yr) of waters warmer than 0 °C. Contrastingly, no significant trend is found in the time of cooling of the strait. 
If I read that right, I am surprised - the hotter sea not delaying the freeze date?

and:-
Quote
By separating the flow into portions driven by (a) the local wind and (b) a far-field (Pacific-Arctic “pressure-head”) forcing, we find the increase in the Bering Strait throughflow is primarily due to a strong increase in the far-field forcing, not changes in the wind.

so googling I found:- http://psc.apl.washington.edu/HLD/Bstrait/Woodgate_BeringStrait_ASOF_Apr2018Final.pdf

Which with a vast collection of graphs, maps etc tells you just about everything, and includes the message repeated in the sciencedirect.com article -

Quote
Finally we conclude that year-round in situ mooring are still the only currently viable way of obtaining accurate quantifications of the properties of the Pacific input to the Arctic.
"Para a Causa do Povo a Luta Continua!"
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kassy

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Re: Arctic Ocean salinity, temperature and waves
« Reply #357 on: July 01, 2019, 03:23:47 PM »
If I read that right, I am surprised - the hotter sea not delaying the freeze date?

Maybe the yellow label on the last map has got something to do with it?
Flux increases
Winter Freshening
Early Warming

The fresher waters (by extra melt) make freezing easier at the end. It will take time before the trend reaches the end of the season and other processes will mix things up before that.

b_lumenkraft

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Re: Arctic Ocean salinity, temperature and waves
« Reply #358 on: July 01, 2019, 03:24:54 PM »
On the slides, it says 20 days delayed cooling in 2016.

(last slide, bottom left)

Shared Humanity

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Re: Arctic Ocean salinity, temperature and waves
« Reply #359 on: July 01, 2019, 04:39:34 PM »
I just realised that I've been totally trolled! I've been well and truly duped into one of the stupidest discussion I've ever seen on this forum all the years I've been here.

I apologize and have hereby stopped writing on the subject.

I'm sorry, but this is only piece of the argument that I'm certain about. You weren't being trolled. I may be wrong and missing something very fundamental, but I'm not disingenuous.

You're efforts at mind-reading are a failure in this instance.

The fundamental piece you have been ignoring (not missing) is that ice floats on top of water.

Shared Humanity

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Re: Arctic Ocean salinity, temperature and waves
« Reply #360 on: July 01, 2019, 05:03:32 PM »
After a hard slog through this thread, I decided to pour myself a stiff drink. Dropped a couple of ice cubes in and damn if they did not sink to the bottom of my glass.  ;)

binntho

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Re: Arctic Ocean salinity, temperature and waves
« Reply #361 on: July 01, 2019, 05:06:42 PM »
After a hard slog through this thread, I decided to pour myself a stiff drink. Dropped a couple of ice cubes in and damn if they did not sink to the bottom of my glass.  ;)
Did you get a picture of that!

Pragma

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Re: Arctic Ocean salinity, temperature and waves
« Reply #362 on: July 01, 2019, 05:10:44 PM »
After a hard slog through this thread, I decided to pour myself a stiff drink. Dropped a couple of ice cubes in and damn if they did not sink to the bottom of my glass.  ;)

It must have been light rum.

I prefer dark myself

BenB

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Re: Arctic Ocean salinity, temperature and waves
« Reply #363 on: July 01, 2019, 05:18:24 PM »
After a hard slog through this thread, I decided to pour myself a stiff drink. Dropped a couple of ice cubes in and damn if they did not sink to the bottom of my glass.  ;)

But what would have happened if you had used whisky stones?  ;)

Bruce Steele

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Re: Arctic Ocean salinity, temperature and waves
« Reply #364 on: July 01, 2019, 05:48:21 PM »
There is a new sensor on the two ITP buoys that have a SAMI ( itp 110 and itp 107 ) . A SAMI measures pCO2 but attached with the SAMI at 6 meters is sensor that measures PAR . PAR is a measure of light intensity at a wavelength that plants and phytoplankton use. Both buoys show clearly that when the sunlight increases at 6 meters the water temperature increases also. The increase in water temperature is happening under the ice. I think we all knew  insolation caused heating but after watching these ITP buoys for years and years it is obvious now that the warming we see in the surface fresh water is coming from above ( the sun ) and not below , at least for buoys riding around in the
Beaufort Gyre . There is upwelling along the edges of the Gyre on the shelf  but these ITP buoys have lots of color spikes , glitches , that make spotting upwelling events difficult , difficult for me anyhow.
 
Rich , I think the amount of fresh water in the Beaufort, under the ice but also out at the margins even when the ice has melted , is very thick. A surface lens of cold fresh water exists everywhere those ITP buoys go so at some point the salty warmer water headed north through the Berring Straits hits that fresh water and sinks. When it sinks it takes its heat with it . The SST anomaly maps I think confuse us because they don't show us salinity and the salinity difference is what makes that warm Pacific water sink.
The Pacific water has to flow north because sea levels are higher in the Pacific than the Atlantic and when high tides and a Southerly windflow combine you get additional flow . Most of the water moves in the deepest channels and turns right , sinks and is entrained in the gyre under tens of meters of fresh water. The one thing that is a pretty big potential problem is that under certain cyclonic conditions the Beaufort Grye can reverse its spin and disgorge much of the water spinning around there. It has happened before and it will be amazing to watch if it happens again. I hope we have some ITP buoys working if and when the gyre relaxes. 
 
 
I think reading Woodgate on the processes of water movement the the Berring Straits is required reading. Too bad we don't have those buoy arrays still working .
 

Rich

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Re: Arctic Ocean salinity, temperature and waves
« Reply #365 on: July 01, 2019, 06:00:03 PM »
FYI - I was able to iterate to the sought after gap in my understanding over in the Stupid Questions thread.

Sometimes there is knowledge that is common in a community that is relatively ubiquitous and the only way you can figure out how to get to the right understanding is kinda messy.

I'm happy to have learned something.

jdallen

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Re: Arctic Ocean salinity, temperature and waves
« Reply #366 on: July 01, 2019, 07:16:31 PM »

But we need to consider the properties of the incoming water and ask ourselves whether it will sink when it comes into contact with it's new surroundings.


THERE IS NO INCOMING WATER!

How often does this have to be repeated: A wave, a surge or a swell does not move water sideways! If a surge enters the Bering and continues into the Arctic, this does not imply ANY sideways movement of water.

A storm swell or surge through the Bering and continuing into the Arctic ocean does not bring any warm water with it. It's only the surface going up and down because of pressure differentials.

Keep shouting. That's the key.

First of all, if you are right.... there is already warm water at the ocean ice interface in the Chuchki.

Second, the sensors as reported by Windy.com and reported in the melting season thread are showing a 0.5 knot current speed heading into the Arctic. Surely, wind can influence current and move water laterally.

Bugs in my garden move faster.

Rich, you are intransigently ignoring both well understood properties of water and the responsiveness of the system, as well as demonstrating a fundamental lack of understanding of the Arctic as a system itself.

Your "how will water behave" question doesn't lead to some brilliant counterintuitive answer. It is nonsensical.
This space for Rent.

uniquorn

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Re: Arctic Ocean salinity, temperature and waves
« Reply #367 on: July 01, 2019, 07:29:18 PM »
back on topic please

RoxTheGeologist

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Re: Arctic Ocean salinity, temperature and waves
« Reply #368 on: July 01, 2019, 07:46:27 PM »
After a hard slog through this thread, I decided to pour myself a stiff drink. Dropped a couple of ice cubes in and damn if they did not sink to the bottom of my glass.  ;)

Your drink needs a higher alcohol content.

BenB

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Re: Arctic Ocean salinity, temperature and waves
« Reply #369 on: July 01, 2019, 08:51:19 PM »
It feels a bit like we're talking at cross purposes here.

Can we agree that:

1. Water molecules in waves move in circles, which get smaller as you move deeper into the water. On a net basis, they neither move vertically or horizontally.

2. There is an average northward flow through the Bering Strait driven by the mechanisms described in Fish's link. This does result in water flowing into the Arctic, and can bring relative warmth.

3. Winds can drive surface currents, particularly if they are persistent. This also leads to horizontal movement of potentially warm or cold water.

johnm33

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Re: Arctic Ocean salinity, temperature and waves
« Reply #370 on: July 01, 2019, 11:23:53 PM »
" turbulent water combined with relatively high drift." I agree, the surface is subject to very different movement so if the instruments act in any way like a sea anchor they will get caught up in deeper currents, the gyre against the plateau shelf for instance, and any 'waterfalls' coming off the plateau, twisting and snagging would seem difficult to avoid once in close.


 edit: added images
« Last Edit: July 02, 2019, 05:45:04 PM by johnm33 »

uniquorn

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Re: Arctic Ocean salinity, temperature and waves
« Reply #371 on: July 04, 2019, 04:37:08 PM »
>> Both buoys show clearly that when the sunlight increases at 6 meters the water temperature increases also. The increase in water temperature is happening under the ice.
The microcats also add further confirmation of that. Even itp104 and 105 further north and far from the ice edge show a somewhat smaller rise at 5m and 6m.
whoi itp103-110 microcat and sami data, jul4

uniquorn

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Re: Arctic Ocean salinity, temperature and waves
« Reply #372 on: July 06, 2019, 12:39:11 AM »
ascat, medium contrast, day 160-185. The 3 or 4 floes below centre to the left of the pole hole have something of a survivor look about them. I'll try to track their history. A quick check and it's A-Teams stationary area here https://forum.arctic-sea-ice.net/index.php/topic,2558.msg209218.html#msg209218
Less movement, less fractures, cold area, better quality ice perhaps. Or it looks better because it doesn't move.
« Last Edit: July 06, 2019, 01:14:18 AM by uniquorn »

uniquorn

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Re: Arctic Ocean salinity, temperature and waves
« Reply #373 on: July 06, 2019, 01:47:53 PM »
They don't look like survivors on worldview aqua modis, jul5, high contrast. I think it is snow.

uniquorn

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Re: Arctic Ocean salinity, temperature and waves
« Reply #374 on: July 06, 2019, 01:50:50 PM »
A link to mercator 34m salinity animation with amsr2uhh overlay, mar21-jul4
https://forum.arctic-sea-ice.net/index.php/topic,2591.msg211134.html#msg211134

uniquorn

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Re: Arctic Ocean salinity, temperature and waves
« Reply #375 on: July 06, 2019, 05:42:58 PM »
mercator(model) 0m salinity with uni-hamburg amsr2-uhh overlaid at 40%. Open water(blue) set to transparent. mar21-jul4.
glitch at the end is due to 4 mercator forecast days instead of analysis, will fix that for next time
« Last Edit: July 06, 2019, 05:49:27 PM by uniquorn »

johnm33

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Re: Arctic Ocean salinity, temperature and waves
« Reply #376 on: July 06, 2019, 08:48:37 PM »
There's so much to see there, most surprising is the reach and speed of generation of the pressure waves into the Arctic generated by surges from the Pacific.

Bruce Steele

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Re: Arctic Ocean salinity, temperature and waves
« Reply #377 on: July 07, 2019, 05:44:12 PM »
The PAR , photo active radiation, and water temperature readings on the ITP 110 buoy seem to go up or down in unison. The incoming radiation is constant 24 hrs. a day or very close to constant at those latitudes but clouds ,water turbidity , ice thickness or snow cover can reduce the amount of light reaching six meters. Most of the heat from solar radiation is taken up by top meter of seawater and mixed into the surface waters above the thermocline ( at about 50 meters on ITP 110 currently ) so it is interesting to me how quickly heat is mixed from surface heating on sunny days into 6 meters of water.
"In a body of water, infrared light can only reach a certain distance below the surface. 90% of infrared radiation is absorbed in the first meter of the water’s surface, and only 1% can reach past two meters in pure water 1. This is why the surface of most bodies of water are warmer than the depths."


 So I have a question, is the heating we see only from solar radiation heating the surface water and mixing or does some radiation  penetrate through ice and heat the water the ice is floating in ?


https://www.fondriest.com/environmental-measurements/parameters/weather/photosynthetically-active-radiation/
« Last Edit: July 07, 2019, 05:54:33 PM by Bruce Steele »

ghoti

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Re: Arctic Ocean salinity, temperature and waves
« Reply #378 on: July 07, 2019, 06:59:11 PM »
You might be confusing different parts of the spectrum. Infrared is not included in PAR (400-700nm) so the absorption characteristics of IR don't necessarily translate to overall solar energy absorbed. Also most of the heating would likely be from the visible spectrum being absorbed and converted to heat.

Bruce Steele

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Re: Arctic Ocean salinity, temperature and waves
« Reply #379 on: July 07, 2019, 08:11:53 PM »
The article I linked does describe the different wavelengths and says that heat from infrared  90% is absorbed in the top meter of water . PAR is visible light but I don't see how much heat it carries or to what depth . I assume visible light carries much less heat and I was only using PAR as some sort of proxy for light intensity on any given day. I was thinking the heat we see is from infrared light at the surface mixing to depth .
 I spent most of my life as a commercial diver. The heat from the sun notably affects the top meter and when you are diving in cold water 45-55 F you can feel the warm surface water on sunny days when you ascend from depth and swim back to the boat.
 Anyone have some ideas about how much heat is  carried with visible light through water or whether
all the heat we see at 6 meters is via mixing of surface water and the heat supplied is infrared?

oren

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Re: Arctic Ocean salinity, temperature and waves
« Reply #380 on: July 07, 2019, 09:12:50 PM »
I have no idea about absorption in water, but most of the energy in sunlight is in the visible spectrum, which is why both plants and our eyes are adapted to use it. Unless I am completely confusing things. So infrared absorption should not be the important factor.

Bruce Steele

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Re: Arctic Ocean salinity, temperature and waves
« Reply #381 on: July 07, 2019, 10:11:46 PM »
Oren, Watts from infrared at the surface are about 55% of total with visible light at 42% . 90% of heat from infrared is absorbed by top meter of water. So the visible light does probably heat water at depth. Less as the red end of the spectrum which carries the more energy and absorbs shallower than the blue end.
 If there is a lot of ice floating around in the top meter of water it would seem like the heat from infrared would contribute to melting ice but the heat from visible light might be what is heating water at 6 meters below the ice. It would at least help explain why the increases in PAR and increases in seawater temperatures are so closely correlated.
 Once the ice melts then the heat from infrared and visible light will heat surface waters down to the thermocline. My best guess.



gerontocrat

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Re: Arctic Ocean salinity, temperature and waves
« Reply #382 on: July 07, 2019, 10:36:33 PM »
I have no idea about absorption in water, but most of the energy in sunlight is in the visible spectrum, which is why both plants and our eyes are adapted to use it. Unless I am completely confusing things. So infrared absorption should not be the important factor.
Oren, part of me wants to thank you and another part doesn't. Your post sent me to read up on this and my brain hurts.
So far I have gathered that:-
- just about all the heat absorption in the oceans is through visible light,
- nearly all the infrared radiation is absorbed in the first few micrometers of the ocean where the thermal skin layer (TSL) exists.
- so  IR radiation does not directly heat the upper few meters of the ocean.

BUT
- due to AGW there is an increase in incoming longwave radiation from clouds,
- this in turn causes additional energy from the absorption of increasing IR radiation into the TSL,
- more of the surface to air heat loss is from the TSL.
- Thus, more heat beneath the TSL is retained leading to the increase in upper ocean heat content.
See link below.
Just think - a few micrometers of surface ocean water heated by increasing infrared radiation the only reason oceans can keep their increased heat.


But heating of the ocean itself is nearly all from visible light and the shorter the wavelength the more effective it is. I read somewhere that while at the tropics in clear water enough energy for photosynthesis can reach as deep as 80 metres, in polar water its more like 10 metres.

Postings above are saying that +ve SST anomalies in the Chukchi/Bering are reaching depths to 100 metres. Something else is going on to get the heat to that depth.
_____________________________________________________________
https://agupubs.onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/pdf/10.1002/2017JC013351
The Response of the Ocean Thermal Skin Layer to Variations in
Incident Infrared Radiation

Quote
Abstract Ocean warming trends are observed and coincide with the increase in concentrations of greenhouse gases in the atmosphere resulting from human activities. At the ocean surface, most of the incoming infrared (IR) radiation is absorbed within the top micrometers of the ocean’s surface where the thermal skin layer (TSL) exists. Thus, the incident IR radiation does not directly heat the upper few meters of the ocean. This paper investigates the physical mechanism between the absorption of IR radiation and its effect on heat transfer at the air-sea boundary. The hypothesis is that given the heat lost through the air-sea interface is controlled by the TSL, the TSL adjusts in response to variations in incident IR radiation to maintain the surface heat loss. This modulates the flow of heat from below and hence controls upper ocean heat content. This hypothesis is tested using the increase in incoming longwave radiation from clouds and analyzing vertical temperature profiles in the TSL retrieved from sea-surface emission spectra. The additional energy from the absorption of increasing IR radiation adjusts the curvature of the TSL such that the upward conduction of heat from the bulk of the ocean into the TSL is reduced. The additional energy absorbed within the TSL supports more of the surface heat loss. Thus, more heat beneath the TSL is retained leading to the observed increase in upper ocean heat content.
"Para a Causa do Povo a Luta Continua!"
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"Damn, I wanted to see what happened next" (Epitaph)

Bruce Steele

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Re: Arctic Ocean salinity, temperature and waves
« Reply #383 on: July 07, 2019, 11:00:04 PM »
Gerontocrat, We haven't had PAR sensors on the ITP buoys in the past. It is another tool in the toolbag.
Since PAR is mostly used to inform bio productivity using them to inform temperature transfer under the ice is probably little more than speculation on my part.
 The heat to 100 meters is < 50 meters surface fresh water and  from 50 to 100 meters Pacific Warm Water at the ITP 110 location. They have different origins and the heat in each has different sources.
 

gerontocrat

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Re: Arctic Ocean salinity, temperature and waves
« Reply #384 on: July 07, 2019, 11:38:19 PM »
It is another tool in the toolbag.

The heat to 100 meters is < 50 meters surface fresh water and  from 50 to 100 meters Pacific Warm Water at the ITP 110 location. They have different origins and the heat in each has different sources.
My ignorance on this subject is almost total.
I posted about this Thermal Skin Layer simply because I was stunned - I had no idea about it at all.

One thing I have learnt is-
- the tool bag isn't big enough,
- there are not enough tools in it,
- the need to know something is inversely proportional to the funds provided to find out.

The (lack of/pitifully small) buoys programme is a classic demonstration of the above.
"Para a Causa do Povo a Luta Continua!"
"And that's all I'm going to say about that". Forrest Gump
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Pragma

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Re: Arctic Ocean salinity, temperature and waves
« Reply #385 on: July 07, 2019, 11:40:07 PM »
Oren, part of me wants to thank you and another part doesn't. Your post sent me to read up on this and my brain hurts.

I would like to extend the same sentiments to you  :) but I am glad I read it. There is a lot in there that is not intuitive. Thank you for the link.

So, if I understand it correctly, the IR energy is re-radiated to the atmosphere, contributing little to the water temperature and bounces between the surface and the various GHGs, with, of course, a portion making it back to space?

Unfortunately, it does not cover the issue of ice, and the heat transfer mechanism. I'm in the process of trying to figure that out.

oren

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Re: Arctic Ocean salinity, temperature and waves
« Reply #386 on: July 08, 2019, 03:31:57 AM »
Thanks for the responses. Seems my memory was at fault, indeed peak energy is at the visible spectrum, but total energy is greater in IR.




uniquorn

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Re: Arctic Ocean salinity, temperature and waves
« Reply #387 on: July 08, 2019, 01:32:52 PM »
A more detailed look at PAR vs temperature for itp110, day150-186.
Temperature rose before par but there is also drift and current to consider.
apologies for the day scale.

Recent atmospheric conditions, worldview, jul3-8. Lost track of it. Better call Binntho ;)
« Last Edit: July 08, 2019, 02:04:51 PM by uniquorn »

JayW

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Re: Arctic Ocean salinity, temperature and waves
« Reply #388 on: July 09, 2019, 01:08:32 PM »
106 hour loop, Chukchi sea, band M15 with colors inverted and increased contrast for detail.  It appears that some of the warmest waters are those that are pushing north, just east of Wrangel Island.
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uniquorn

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Re: Arctic Ocean salinity, temperature and waves
« Reply #389 on: July 09, 2019, 05:35:45 PM »
Nice. You found what you were looking for, and reasonable agreement with mercator.

uniquorn

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Re: Arctic Ocean salinity, temperature and waves
« Reply #390 on: July 10, 2019, 02:55:14 PM »
A detailed look at the sami for itp107. Once again temperature not really corrrelating with PAR at 6m but 107 has just left the chukchi plateau. I was hoping the profiler might continue once in deeper water but the last 4 profiles are stuck at 206m.

uniquorn

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Re: Arctic Ocean salinity, temperature and waves
« Reply #391 on: July 12, 2019, 01:04:12 PM »
location, temperature, salinity and density for whoi itp110, day173-193 (click to run)
The profile still struggling, possibly with high drift speed. see https://www.whoi.edu/page.do?pid=163197