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Author Topic: Arctic Ocean salinity, temperature and waves  (Read 59464 times)

b_lumenkraft

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Re: Arctic Ocean salinity, temperature and waves
« Reply #250 on: May 29, 2019, 09:57:50 AM »
Mercator model, salinity 0m vs. 30m for the month of May.


johnm33

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Re: Arctic Ocean salinity, temperature and waves
« Reply #251 on: May 29, 2019, 04:32:52 PM »
I looked a little deeper, I ctrl+ this to 170% and play at 200
http://bulletin.mercator-ocean.fr/en/permalink/PSY4/animation/3/20190401/20190527/2/4
it seems Atlantic water has circumnavigated the Arctic at depth.

johnm33

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johnm33

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Re: Arctic Ocean salinity, temperature and waves
« Reply #253 on: June 02, 2019, 10:03:31 PM »
^ Error I meant to post this which if I'm not mistaken is showing the melt taking place as deep Atlantic water is sucked into and washed out of Amundsen and Mclure. This could be good or bad since it seems the surface will be fresher for the whole gyration, but unless the outflow of Fram/Nares slow it won't matter[help].

johnm33

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Re: Arctic Ocean salinity, temperature and waves
« Reply #254 on: June 03, 2019, 10:43:51 AM »
I'm reading these three images as indicating the increasing penetration of Atlantic water, it has now, at depth, surrounded Greenland and most of Ellesmere. The third one shows how much it has penetrated along the CAA continental shelf. Whenever there's a tidal forcing or a low/high moves into/over the basin the deep water will wash up onto the shelf increasing bottom melt.
This will help in the opening up of the CAA to increasing ice export.
Then we have the increasing temp and melt spreading down Greenlands west coast from Nares all the way to Disko where the Irminger current brings it's own warming waters to.



https://earth.nullschool.net/#current/ocean/primary/waves/overlay=sea_surface_temp_anomaly/orthographic=-53.36,71.85,1389/loc=-61.503,75.588

b_lumenkraft

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Re: Arctic Ocean salinity, temperature and waves
« Reply #255 on: June 03, 2019, 11:51:06 AM »
This might be better placed in the stupid question thread, but why isn't the west coast of Greenland so salty at 0m? Shouldn't we see some freshening (i.e. blue tones) due to melting here too at least somewhere along the coastline?

Oh wait, it is actually doing that. Sorry, never mind.
« Last Edit: June 03, 2019, 11:58:58 AM by b_lumenkraft »

johnm33

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Re: Arctic Ocean salinity, temperature and waves
« Reply #256 on: June 03, 2019, 12:46:03 PM »
The glbhycom shows it up better, the denser Atlantic water is energetically driven against the coast forcing the fresh water into central Baffin, where it joins the Arctic waters who's relative inertia keeps them to the Canadian side. The difference in density means the Atlantic waters can constantly stream into the fjords whilst the fresh-er water exits on the surface. This can only get worse through to sept.
Ignore the warning to the link, it's a US navy website best zoomed in on rather than displayed 'forum' sized

b_lumenkraft

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Re: Arctic Ocean salinity, temperature and waves
« Reply #257 on: June 03, 2019, 01:05:41 PM »
That's very interesting! Thanks a lot, John.

Stephan

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Re: Arctic Ocean salinity, temperature and waves
« Reply #258 on: June 03, 2019, 07:49:39 PM »
The glbhycom shows it up better, the denser Atlantic water is energetically driven against the coast forcing the fresh water into central Baffin, where it joins the Arctic waters who's relative inertia keeps them to the Canadian side. The difference in density means the Atlantic waters can constantly stream into the fjords whilst the fresh-er water exits on the surface. This can only get worse through to sept.
Ignore the warning to the link, it's a US navy website best zoomed in on rather than displayed 'forum' sized
I have no access to this website for weeks now (using Chrome as web browser). Is there any other chance to access this valuable information?
It is too late just to be concerned about Climate Change

b_lumenkraft

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Re: Arctic Ocean salinity, temperature and waves
« Reply #259 on: June 03, 2019, 08:01:02 PM »
Stephan, are you using http instead of https in the URL by chance?

johnm33

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Re: Arctic Ocean salinity, temperature and waves
« Reply #260 on: June 03, 2019, 08:46:41 PM »
This animation shows the temp. anomaly growing and moving south from Nares
Not as good as an animation, the sss from hycom


uniquorn

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Re: Arctic Ocean salinity, temperature and waves
« Reply #261 on: June 04, 2019, 12:32:44 AM »
worldview aqua modis overlaid onto mercator 34m salinity at 50%, jun1-3

b_lumenkraft

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Re: Arctic Ocean salinity, temperature and waves
« Reply #262 on: June 04, 2019, 07:46:40 AM »
Hey Uniquorn, glad to see you posting again. :)

Would it be possible to have this for the 0m salinity too?

uniquorn

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Re: Arctic Ocean salinity, temperature and waves
« Reply #263 on: June 04, 2019, 10:28:09 AM »
Very busy here at the moment.

b_lumenkraft

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Re: Arctic Ocean salinity, temperature and waves
« Reply #264 on: June 04, 2019, 10:35:18 AM »
No hurry. :)

Stephan

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Re: Arctic Ocean salinity, temperature and waves
« Reply #265 on: June 04, 2019, 07:02:03 PM »
Stephan, are you using http instead of https in the URL by chance?
If I write https in the URL it is marked in red and striked through. This is the message that follows:
"Dies ist keine sichere Verbindung
Hacker könnten versuchen, Ihre Daten von www7320.nrlssc.navy.mil zu stehlen, zum Beispiel Passwörter, Nachrichten oder Kreditkartendaten. Weitere Informationen
NET::ERR_CERT_REVOKED"
It is too late just to be concerned about Climate Change

b_lumenkraft

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Re: Arctic Ocean salinity, temperature and waves
« Reply #266 on: June 04, 2019, 07:05:11 PM »
They forgot to update their certificate.

You should be able to visit the site by using Firefox.

Someone should send them a mail, telling them their certificate has expired.

johnm33

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Re: Arctic Ocean salinity, temperature and waves
« Reply #267 on: June 04, 2019, 07:49:50 PM »
Too much gets lost when I try to make a gif so link to previous animation
https://www7320.nrlssc.navy.mil/GLBhycomcice1-12/navo/arcticsss_nowcast_anim30d.gif

try zooming in on that
and a straight temp. animation from mercator, I play this at 200ms and zoom to 170%
http://bulletin.mercator-ocean.fr/en/permalink/PSY4/animation/3/20190401/20190613/1/1
that's not too bad, it shows the ice forced against Ellesmere as it moves through Nares and some impression of just how much Atlantic water is forcing it's way through beneath the ice, given the huge displacement of Baffins existing ice cover. Most of Baffin/Arctic ice seems to be making it's way into Hudson, I guess the fresh melt/discharge waters are too, so a prolonged winter and cool summer for the bay.
« Last Edit: June 05, 2019, 08:48:50 PM by johnm33 »

johnm33

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Re: Arctic Ocean salinity, temperature and waves
« Reply #268 on: June 05, 2019, 09:24:34 PM »
The salinity gif

There's more than one way to read this but my take is as stated above, Atlantic waters are now moving at depth down the west coast of Greenland speeding the melt of every glacier sitting in a deep fjord.
« Last Edit: June 05, 2019, 09:36:23 PM by johnm33 »

b_lumenkraft

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Re: Arctic Ocean salinity, temperature and waves
« Reply #269 on: June 05, 2019, 09:41:54 PM »
Atlantic waters are now moving at depth down the west coast of Greenland

John, i've seen that before. Do you have the impression it increased? And if so, is Baffin Bay also Atlantifying?

johnm33

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Re: Arctic Ocean salinity, temperature and waves
« Reply #270 on: June 06, 2019, 12:56:22 AM »
" Do you have the impression it increased?" Yes but by how much and whether it's temporary IDK??
" And if so, is Baffin Bay also Atlantifying?" Not sure if I'd call it that, the Atlantic water [from the north] such as it is will be diluted by meltwater from Greenland, so less saline nearer neutral kinetically and either cooling Hudson or the N.Atlantic. From the south the Irminger current will keep grinding on but it too will, probably, be held in check by increased flow from the north.

b_lumenkraft

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Re: Arctic Ocean salinity, temperature and waves
« Reply #271 on: June 06, 2019, 06:43:55 AM »
Thanks for your opinion, John.

Let's keep that observed. ;)

FishOutofWater

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Re: Arctic Ocean salinity, temperature and waves
« Reply #272 on: June 09, 2019, 03:32:32 AM »
The Coriolis effect causes water masses to turn to the right or go northwards on the west coast of Greenland or southwards on the east coast of Canada. The same effect works in narrow passages like the Nares strait. When water masses interact, eddies are the result.

johnm33

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Re: Arctic Ocean salinity, temperature and waves
« Reply #273 on: June 09, 2019, 01:34:47 PM »
The Coriolis effect causes water masses to turn to the right or go northwards on the west coast of Greenland or southwards on the east coast of Canada. The same effect works in narrow passages like the Nares strait. When water masses interact, eddies are the result.
and yet there's a deep current of Atlantic water that flows down the Greenland side, I understand this only by assuming that it retains some of the inertia that carried it eastwards to eventually pass between Iceland and Norway, Arctic waters lack that momentum and pass through on the Ellesmere side.
The image and first link are both at 100m., I'm assuming again, the higher salinity in the image as a proxy for Atlantic waters and the temp. anomaly against Greenland in north Baffin the same. 

http://bulletin.mercator-ocean.fr/en/permalink/PSY4/20190618/map/3/3/3#4/55.60/-102.44
http://bulletin.mercator-ocean.fr/en/permalink/PSY4/20190618/map/3/11/1#3/52.75/-105.91

johnm33

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Re: Arctic Ocean salinity, temperature and waves
« Reply #274 on: June 11, 2019, 04:17:15 PM »
I'm thinking that Beaufort has become a killing zone for any myi that makes it past the garlic press, so given the apparent vorticity taking place there I looked at whats going on at depth in the mercator model 300m salinity

oops pressed post instead of preview,
What I think is happening is that as the surface ice/water is being pushed away by winds and the surface thrust of Amundsen tides, deeper water is being drawn into both Mclure and Amundsen, this, i think, is Atlantic waters which have been drawn along the shelf and being very kinetically uncormfortable is leading to extreme vorticity which reaches to the surface then gets caught in the gyre and moves west.

Hycom sea ice thickness above
and here is A-Teams latest Ascat, which if anything looks worse than the models.
« Last Edit: June 11, 2019, 04:50:29 PM by johnm33 »

uniquorn

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Re: Arctic Ocean salinity, temperature and waves
« Reply #275 on: June 11, 2019, 09:27:22 PM »
Would it be possible to have this for the 0m salinity too?
At this time of year 0m salinity probably says more about bottom melt than ocean currents. I find it difficult to interpret.
Here is an update to mercator 34m salinity and worldview terra modis(high contrast), jun1-10.
Also a closer look at the area north of Svalbard using worldview aqua modis, jun1-11, default and very high contrast to show movement of multiple fine fractures.

uniquorn

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Re: Arctic Ocean salinity, temperature and waves
« Reply #276 on: June 11, 2019, 09:42:21 PM »
Update on whoi itp110 showing location, temperature, salinity and density (clockwise). Probably best viewed full screen.
@Pragma, the 'holes' in the profile are normally where the profiler stops for some reason, probably due to strong current, high speed drift, temporary fouling, turbulence etc

RoxTheGeologist

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Re: Arctic Ocean salinity, temperature and waves
« Reply #277 on: June 11, 2019, 11:04:04 PM »
Mercator model, salinity 0m vs. 30m for the month of May.

Note that Mercator uses differing scales at different depths. Very annoying.

b_lumenkraft

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Re: Arctic Ocean salinity, temperature and waves
« Reply #278 on: June 12, 2019, 07:03:33 AM »
Right! I'll include a scale next time.

uniquorn

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Re: Arctic Ocean salinity, temperature and waves
« Reply #279 on: June 12, 2019, 12:39:16 PM »
Ascat sep17-jun11. Still experimenting with the circular mask. The swaths move a little over time.

Rich

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Re: Arctic Ocean salinity, temperature and waves
« Reply #280 on: June 12, 2019, 01:38:57 PM »
Ascat sep17-jun11. Still experimenting with the circular mask. The swaths move a little over time.

Thanks for sharing that. Interesting that the ice at the N.Pole in September has all since departed via Fram. Gives a good sense of the life cycle.

uniquorn

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Re: Arctic Ocean salinity, temperature and waves
« Reply #281 on: June 12, 2019, 01:41:34 PM »
Gives a good sense of the life cycle this year.
For a longer term view please see 2010-2019 here https://forum.arctic-sea-ice.net/index.php/topic,2417.msg188990.html#msg188990

oren

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Re: Arctic Ocean salinity, temperature and waves
« Reply #282 on: June 12, 2019, 02:04:33 PM »
Thanks uniquorn. This is really amazing, and alarming - almost half the ice area that survived last season has been exported, mostly to the Atlantic Front, and some of it spread over the open water in the Beaufort. Hopefully it's a smaller fraction of last year's surviving volume. But still with most of the CAB covered by FYI, it's a setup for very sharp drops later in the season even with average weather.

johnm33

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Re: Arctic Ocean salinity, temperature and waves
« Reply #283 on: June 12, 2019, 04:44:46 PM »
moon, thanks uniquorn bit amateur hour but have to start somewhere.
maybe we need a pack rotation thread just to keep yours and A-Teams work easily accesible?
Just to illustrate the vortice[?] action a little, temp., opening, salinity and ice strength from Hycom


and looking at nullschool for about the same time no atmospheric cause afaics. https://earth.nullschool.net/#2019/06/07/0000Z/wind/surface/level/overlay=mean_sea_level_pressure/orthographic=-42.86,82.60,512/loc=-131.224,77.015
modified gif
« Last Edit: June 12, 2019, 07:23:10 PM by johnm33 »

uniquorn

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Re: Arctic Ocean salinity, temperature and waves
« Reply #284 on: June 13, 2019, 12:01:19 AM »
Cyclone sitting over the beaufort for a few days might stir things up a bit more.

The low concentration area north of Svalbard starting to show again, even through the fairly constant export. Worldview aqua modis, high contrast and noaa bathymetry, jun11.
https://go.nasa.gov/2X4StFP

Glen Koehler

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Re: Arctic Ocean salinity, temperature and waves
« Reply #285 on: June 13, 2019, 12:43:27 AM »
RE #279   Are there full season versions of this video available from past years?  Would be very interesting for comparison.  I hope we have future updates of this video, it's the best thing I've seen for representing pack rotation and export.   

     Apart from the recent high temperature weather forecasts, it seems that low extent on the Pacific side; recent rapid and accelerating deterioration along the Siberian coast; and ice condition and mobility are the three big stories so far this melting season. 

     But I also see on Wipneus chart that Fram Strait export as measured by ice Extent was at normal level for May.  So I may be overeacting to the pack motion. 

    The video in Uniquorn's post shows the Nares Strait as a nasty leak shuttling ice out of the Lincoln Sea at a rapid pace.  Since Nares opening was early this year, that makes me think that overall export is an increased source of ice loss this year, and may be disproportionately removing what little 4 and 5 year old ice was left.

 

Shared Humanity

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Re: Arctic Ocean salinity, temperature and waves
« Reply #286 on: June 13, 2019, 03:09:22 AM »
    The video in Uniquorn's post shows the Nares Strait as a nasty leak shuttling ice out of the Lincoln Sea at a rapid pace.  Since Nares opening was early this year, that makes me think that overall export is an increased source of ice loss this year, and may be disproportionately removing what little 4 and 5 year old ice was left.

The Nares was never officially closed IMO.

Tor Bejnar

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Re: Arctic Ocean salinity, temperature and waves
« Reply #287 on: June 13, 2019, 04:46:16 AM »
Who's to say if "Nares was closed (or not)" this year?  Certainly the Lincoln Sea Polynya arch prevented Arctic Ocean floes from entering the Strait for about a month.  We watched a 'race' in late February and March:
  • The Lincoln Sea arch stopped crumbling about February 17, 2019
  • The last 'old' ice in the Lincoln Sea entered Nares Straight about February 27
  • The last of the 'old' ice floes exited into Baffin Bay about March 26
  • The Lincoln Sea arch had several 'minor' edge collapses starting March 5
  • The March 5 edge ice entered Nares Strait about March 19
  • The Lincoln Sea arch totally collapsed about March 20
Arctic ice is healthy for children and other living things.

uniquorn

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Re: Arctic Ocean salinity, temperature and waves
« Reply #288 on: June 13, 2019, 03:34:18 PM »
RE #279   Are there full season versions of this video available from past years?
please see 2010-2019 here https://forum.arctic-sea-ice.net/index.php/topic,2417.msg188990.html#msg188990

uniquorn

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Re: Arctic Ocean salinity, temperature and waves
« Reply #289 on: June 16, 2019, 11:25:35 PM »
Update on the whoi itp buoys. https://www.whoi.edu/page.do?pid=163197
Incomplete profiles on itp89, 107 and 109 but all are still reporting location and internal buoy temperatures.
103 showing significantly different drift track to 104 and 105 since it drifted into shallower water. 104 and 105 still drifting north against the annual ice drift.
110 showing peaks of warmer water at 50-100m recently. The second animation is from may30-jun16.(longer animation above in post276)

« Last Edit: June 16, 2019, 11:36:23 PM by uniquorn »

uniquorn

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Re: Arctic Ocean salinity, temperature and waves
« Reply #290 on: June 17, 2019, 08:40:46 PM »
whoi itp110 temperatures at 68-90m(dbar) for jun17 and approximate location jun16. It appears to be tethered to the arrow shaped floe, centre. https://go.nasa.gov/2MQS4CN

%year day pressure(dbar) temperature(C) salinity oxygen(umol/kg)
2019  168.03528   68   -0.0313   29.9886  346.8176
2019  168.03517   70    0.0957   30.2463  344.5711
2019  168.03508   72    0.0838   30.3616  343.0742
2019  168.03496   74    0.0633   30.4521  341.0866
2019  168.03486   76    0.0612   30.5492  338.5854
2019  168.03477   78    0.0888   30.6184  335.9899
2019  168.03467   80    0.1292   30.7162  333.2428
2019  168.03457   82    0.0466   30.8086  330.7020
2019  168.03448   84    0.0430   30.8697  327.7918
2019  168.03438   86    0.0982   30.9570  323.8962
2019  168.03427   88    0.0575   31.0426  320.0219
2019  168.03417   90   -0.0068   31.0948  316.5251

%year day longitude(E+) latitude(N+)
2019  167.70905  -143.6745  74.3031

edit: added itp110 temperature profile, 0-200m
« Last Edit: June 17, 2019, 09:46:26 PM by uniquorn »

uniquorn

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Re: Arctic Ocean salinity, temperature and waves
« Reply #291 on: June 18, 2019, 12:47:21 PM »
Lucky to have a polarview sentinel1 image from jun17 of the itp110 floe. I think the buoy is attached somewhere bottom right of the triangular floe.
edit:Cross checking with the polarview lat/long grid, which is probably more accurate, itp110 may be a touch south east of the triangular floe. See third image.
2019  168.66721  -143.8305  74.2868
2019  168.68769  -143.8273  74.2863
2019  168.70888  -143.8237  74.2858
« Last Edit: June 18, 2019, 01:06:34 PM by uniquorn »

FishOutofWater

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Re: Arctic Ocean salinity, temperature and waves
« Reply #292 on: June 18, 2019, 01:12:40 PM »
Both the temperature and salinity increased in the upper 30 meters at buoy 110 with the passage of the tight cyclone. Based on the graphs, the most likely correct interpretation is that the warm summer water layer located between 50m and 125m depth was partially mixed with the cold fresh upper water layer by the cyclone.

Needless to say, this situation will increase the bottom melting rate. The release of that stored heat in early to mid June appears to be a worst case situation for the sea ice. Perhaps cool weather will offset some of the damage to the ice, but it does not look good.

uniquorn

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Re: Arctic Ocean salinity, temperature and waves
« Reply #293 on: June 18, 2019, 01:29:53 PM »
Thanks FOoW. I should know to never post temps without salinity ;)

Wondering if all these cyclones are affecting the gyre, here is mercator(model) current at 34m, jan1-jun17, ~16days/sec
@johnm33 I see how the amundsen gulf could be seen as the 'gyre pump' here. Looks like it can't make it's mind up though.
forgot scale
« Last Edit: June 18, 2019, 01:47:54 PM by uniquorn »

johnm33

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Re: Arctic Ocean salinity, temperature and waves
« Reply #294 on: June 18, 2019, 02:27:33 PM »
Gyre pump, yes what I think would be a more 'natural' circulation would be Pacific waters driving along the coast/shelf towards Amundsen and then being pumped out in a more northerly direction generating lots of turbulence along the sheer line of the two currents. The Pacific water though flowing over/through the shallow strait doesn't seem to have the power to move according to it's own inertia but gets forced every which way according to the prevailing atmospherics and temporary underlying currents. So when it does flow towards Amundsen it disrupts Amundsens drawing in of Atlantic water at depth, the surface water being the easiest fraction to shift, then the highs/lows move around and back to square one.
hope that makes sense.
 Surprised me to see the to and fro above Santa Anna trough
« Last Edit: June 18, 2019, 02:36:19 PM by johnm33 »

uniquorn

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Re: Arctic Ocean salinity, temperature and waves
« Reply #295 on: June 18, 2019, 11:43:16 PM »
Possibility of another injection of warm salty water north of Greenland with the upcoming weather.
Mercator(model) salinity 34m jan1-jun16

uniquorn

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Re: Arctic Ocean salinity, temperature and waves
« Reply #296 on: June 19, 2019, 11:51:55 PM »
Close up of the nonsense crack, jun1-18, heavy contrast. Note the fine fractures to the north and the floes are fracturing further with some melting. (It is the season ;) ) Ile Borden lower left.
« Last Edit: June 19, 2019, 11:57:07 PM by uniquorn »

uniquorn

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Re: Arctic Ocean salinity, temperature and waves
« Reply #297 on: June 20, 2019, 12:09:46 PM »
Whoi itp109 and 110 are currently quite close together. Unfortunately 109 stopped sending profiles on dec15 but still sends a status report including location, temperature and battery voltage. Here they are roughly located on worldview terra modis today with their internal temperature chart. https://go.nasa.gov/2IVqnnn
109 buried in thick snow or surface ice?
Note that 110 hit 12.875C today despite windy ecmwf air temps of 0C. Must be sunny there today.
ITP110
Last buoy status on 2019/6/20 3047 UTC : temperature = 12.875 °C
Last position on 2019/6/20 3047 UTC : 74.1261° N, 143.3538° W
https://www.whoi.edu/page.do?pid=163197

prokaryotes

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Re: Arctic Ocean salinity, temperature and waves
« Reply #298 on: June 20, 2019, 03:01:55 PM »
Possibility of another injection of warm salty water north of Greenland with the upcoming weather.
Mercator(model) salinity 34m jan1-jun16
Are people aware that higher salt content affect the stability zone of subsea permafrost deposits?

Made a post yesterday New Mechanism for Methane Hydrate Dissociation Discovered http://climatestate.com/2019/06/19/new-mechanism-for-methane-hydrate-dissociation/

Evaporation in the Arctic, historically been low due to the lower temperatures there, but with amplifications up there, likely a profound uptake in rains too from permafrost thaw, there is the question how the Arctic Water Cycle (AWC) will contribute to saltiness as well.

Are there ESAS region specific salt buoys? 

Update, googled a bit more..

Seven Years of SMOS Sea Surface Salinity at High Latitudes: Variability in Arctic and Sub-Arctic Regions https://www.mdpi.com/2072-4292/10/11/1772/htm

The Potential and Challenges of Using Soil Moisture Active Passive (SMAP) Sea Surface Salinity to Monitor Arctic Ocean Freshwater Changes https://www.mdpi.com/2072-4292/10/6/869/htm

Stability of the arctic halocline: a new indicator of arctic climate change https://iopscience.iop.org/article/10.1088/1748-9326/aaec1e/meta

Quote
A reduction in upward oceanic heat flux. This reduction in heat flux is due to increased precipitation that leads to fresher ocean surface waters and, hence, to more stable stratification of the upper Arctic Ocean. This stratification results in cooling of the ocean surface and warming of deeper ocean layers.
https://www.jstor.org/stable/26542658?seq=1#page_scan_tab_contents
« Last Edit: June 20, 2019, 08:13:50 PM by prokaryotes »
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uniquorn

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Re: Arctic Ocean salinity, temperature and waves
« Reply #299 on: June 21, 2019, 01:47:56 PM »
Both the temperature and salinity increased in the upper 30 meters at buoy 110 with the passage of the tight cyclone.
itp110 update. It looks like the profiler couldn't move above 200m depth during the cyclone. The algo making the charts doesn't cope too well with the lack of data. Likely due to high drift speed.
location, temp, salinity, density, 50 days to jun21. click to run.