Missing Big Picture

[ivica]

Taken from "AGW in general » Consequences » When and how bad?":

...Maybe this thread is only about worst case projections for humans but to ignore worst case for so many other lifeforms is shortsighted at best or simply suicidal.

So, what guide us in our thinking?

Basic definitions, used further in text:
We = Human race.
Biota = We and other lifeforms.
Earth+ = the planet and its Biota.      

Do We have any Big Plan or are We just wobbling around?

1. What/Who We are ?
The best what I have as explanation for myself I call Enfant Model,
roughly, We are bunch of kids prone to foolish and dangerous things.
Mentored by Nature which teach us By Example.

2. Where are we (the planet & Biota) now ?
Current state of Earth+.

3. Where is Earth+ heading ?

4. What We want/can to do ?
Save Humans, Civilization, other lifeforms... a part or all of that, what?

Enfants doing that, a paradox?

What about Polls for it?

If you have desire/time to open a topics for 1..4 please do that.

Gone hunting a beer.

[Bruce Steele]

Ivica, quite the challenge. Since I live half a world away I  have had the day to think about this while doing my farm chores. Today at least # 2  and # 3 weren't on my mind so much but # 1 ,who are we ?,I would like to change to ,who are we + biota?  That , for me anyhow ,is where nature informs. Morphology would point to our similarity with a number of other unlikely lifeforms , now and far into the past. The bones in our hand look a lot like the bones in a porpoise flipper or an ancient whale. A bunch of primates hands ...we are not really a one off. We are a morphed one off.Our emotions, in my opinion , aren't even something unique . The pigs really seem to know joy, even fun or humor seem less than strictly a we thing. It would be better I think if we embraced our commonality rather than our uniqueness. Found inspiration in the knowledge and maybe a little sadness too. It would help us all I think to show some loyalty ,and a little affection. That would make # 4 ,what can we+ biota do ,a little easier. Loyalty knows sacrifice, affection knows sacrifice. Giving some things up would be a good place to start, for them+we.         

[ivica]

This documentary "The Selfish Ape: The Tribe of Suit " adds something to #1.

"The human being is the self-proclaimed king of the Creation. Our extraordinary cultural and technological evolution has led us to dominate the planet and all its creatures. But something is going wrong..."

[ivica]

At 50:02 of video above:

The tribe of Suit has inverted the natural order of things,
changing natural selection which prize the most prepared
for social selection which gives power to the worst.
We are out of the control as a species.

[ivica]

The trend of Nature (Universe, if you prefer) is progressive, to create/build entities of higher complexity using entities of lower complexity, that can be written this way:
   ...->atoms->molecules->life

Society enters the trend which could destroy a lot of life on this planet, that can be written this way:
   atoms<-molecules<-life
if we account obsession with nuclear fission:
   ...<-atoms<-molecules<-life

What is the profile of those responsible for the trend opposite to natural one? 
I'm not with them, I'm different, Bulleh! to me, I'm not known.
I am meta-human, and I see no compromise with regressive trend.

They deny reality. They do not see problems. What we can expect from them?
Even if they do their best, that is not good enough. They are not up-to-the-challenge we are facing.

[ivica]

How many enfant mindsets behind 'the wheels' of our society?
Some of them seem not only regressive but also aggressive.

We like our kids, they are so cute. They are so self-confident and think they can do *anything*. Some will even lie - just to get what they want, and that is - all they see. We give them so much but not 'the wheel'. We keep them with us. On the backseat, fastened. Adults drive.

EDIT: 2015-05-01: If they (the mindset that rules over us) are any good, why are we in trouble?

[ivica]

How many enfant mindsets behind 'the wheels' of our society?
Some of them seem not only regressive but also aggressive.

We like our kids, they are so cute. They are so self-confident and think they can do *anything*. Some will even lie - just to get what they want, and that is - all they see. We give them so much but not 'the wheel'. We keep them with us. On the backseat, fastened. Adults drive.

EDIT: 2015-05-01: If they (the mindset that rules over us) are any good, why are we in trouble?

still working on it, having own kids - and all problems related to it - lizard brains inside of us

[ivica]

Some food for thoughts: https://www.sott.net/article/363278-How-Globalism-Works-Like-the-Mafia
150 mega-corps. whats on top of that, how many "families"?
whats the definition of Fascism?
...
(maybe a thread for Globalism?)

[budmantis]

This is definitely "deep thought" area and I'm not certain I can relate on such a deep level, so bear with me. Ivica, your mention of human beings as children (enfants) reminds me of Star Trek TNG where in the first episode an omnipotent entity known as "Q" refers to humans as a "dangerous, savage child race". I always thought that was an apt description for humanity. For most of my adult life, I had hoped that we could advance beyond our adolescence, but alas as I get closer to my seventieth birthday, it seems we have learned very little despite our technological advances.

On the one hand, some marvel at the advances we've made, but in reality, we are pretty much "ape" like after all these millennia. This means that we've become more dangerous to the planet and other life forms. Can we as a species mature in time to correct what we did wrong? I'd like to think we can, but in reality it seems we are the agent of our own extinction as well as a great deal of other species.

BudM

[ivica]

Bud,
(my opinion) The System do not want "mature species", they are lousy consumers, hard to manipulate,...
"The system is the problem" is mentioned by a few members in a few threads of this Forum.
I think we should have a thread dedicated to it.

[TerryM]

Bud,
(my opinion) The System do not want "mature species", they are lousy consumers, hard to manipulate,...
"The system is the problem" is mentioned by a few members in a few threads of this Forum.
I think we should have a thread dedicated to it.

Can I ask which system you're seeing as "the problem".
I still see more than one system at play, although the options are certainly being curtailed. The end of history was prematurely heralded IMHO, and "the system" may yet fail to mature just as is has already failed on so many other levels.
Terry

[ivica]

Bud,
(my opinion) The System do not want "mature species", they are lousy consumers, hard to manipulate,...
"The system is the problem" is mentioned by a few members in a few threads of this Forum.
I think we should have a thread dedicated to it.

Can I ask which system you're seeing as "the problem".
I still see more than one system at play, although the options are certainly being curtailed. The end of history was prematurely heralded IMHO, and "the system" may yet fail to mature just as is has already failed on so many other levels.
Terry

The system which rules over us, part of it being mentioned above.

[TerryM]

Ivica
Thanks for the very quick reply.
If globalization is the problem, nationalism is hopefully not the correct antidote.


Since childhood I was aware that the rapid spread of American Globalism was only a good thing if America was the repository for all of the good ideas. Choosing a single dogma, and following that dogma everywhere in all circumstances is only good when that dogma has the correct answers to all of our problems.


The situation as I see it is that no one society has proven to have pulled so far ahead of the pack that it's precepts should always, or even in most instances, be followed.
I spoke some decades to a youngish man who had been in the Soviet Military, the Russian Military under Yeltsin, and was at that time living a rather destitute existence in one of the California beach towns. I asked which system was better. The Soviet system, Yeltsin's Russia, or California's democracy.
He took a while before answering that the Soviet system was best if you were poor, Yeltsin's system was best if you were very rich, and California was a bitch without money. He followed by saying that most people were poor, so he'd opt for the Soviet system.


If we accept that each system has advantages for some people, then we have to accept that no one system is ideal. The answer is to have multiple systems that allow people to freely move between systems, or to give the people the power to change the system they're presently living under.
Khrushchev said that the cold war would be won by the side that most perfectly met the needs and wants of her people. I think he missed the power of propaganda.


John33, on the Ukraine thread posted a study showing how much the Soviet citizens wanted to retain their system. This option was not allowed them and it's possible to blame much of their subsequent unrest on this unjustice.


Most of the world is under the thrall of globalism, but there are still some options left - I think.
Terry

[ivica]

...
Most of the world is under the thrall of globalism, but there are still some options left - I think.
Terry

That is why I'd like to see dedicated thread for Globalism (and The System), subjects utterly important in my view. Quote from prev linked article:

However, the biggest question of all is this: what will we focus on - these pressing challenges or the trivial daily distractions manufactured for us by the globalists?

Replacing the last word "globalists" with "manipulists" makes the quote above stronger. (in my humble opinion)

[ivica]

Ivica, quite the challenge. Since I live half a world away I  have had the day to think about this while doing my farm chores. Today at least # 2  and # 3 weren't on my mind so much but # 1 ,who are we ?,I would like to change to ,who are we + biota?  That , for me anyhow ,is where nature informs. Morphology would point to our similarity with a number of other unlikely lifeforms , now and far into the past. The bones in our hand look a lot like the bones in a porpoise flipper or an ancient whale. A bunch of primates hands ...we are not really a one off. We are a morphed one off.Our emotions, in my opinion , aren't even something unique . The pigs really seem to know joy, even fun or humor seem less than strictly a we thing. It would be better I think if we embraced our commonality rather than our uniqueness. Found inspiration in the knowledge and maybe a little sadness too. It would help us all I think to show some loyalty ,and a little affection. That would make # 4 ,what can we+ biota do ,a little easier. Loyalty knows sacrifice, affection knows sacrifice. Giving some things up would be a good place to start, for them+we.       

Hah. almost 10y after - and i feel pretty much the same - you are the man, Bruce, love you - the life you present!

[Bruce Steele]

Ivica, There are some people I really wish I could sit around a campfire with and watch the stars .
 Anyway it is getting towards new year and I am glad you thought of this old post. Sacrifice and living a little smaller needs some practice on my part, again. So glad my wife goes along with these little efforts.
 Happy new year Ivica, here is to ten more !
 My wife reminded me we need some new hens and I have no idea how to cook or bake without eggs, especially acorns.

[Sigmetnow]

Ivica, There are some people I really wish I could sit around a campfire with and watch the stars .
 Anyway it is getting towards new year and I am glad you thought of this old post. Sacrifice and living a little smaller needs some practice on my part, again. So glad my wife goes along with these little efforts.
 Happy new year Ivica, here is to ten more !
 My wife reminded me we need some new hens and I have no idea how to cook or bake without eggs, especially acorns.

Bruce, I found myself thinking about your acorn trees, which may be the oldest DNA growing on your farm, considering the changes we’ve made to farm animals and crops.  How old do you think your trees are?

[Bruce Steele]

Sigmetnow, We sit in a floodplain and there are live oaks but they aren’t old. Acorns are on the ground right now and blue jays, quail and ground squirrels are busy. Quail like the ones crushed by car tires.
Live oaks were a staple here once but they are extra hard to process compared to the introduced holm oaks planted at a RV resort nearby. I have watched and harvested acorns for several years , they are amazingly dependable producers. Eating them is doable but kinda a lot of effort . Without eggs I am afraid it would be acorn mush, not something I like much.
 Oaks in Calif. and their DNA are very old Sig ,Sabre tooth’s  and tar pits old , and older I am sure.
Nobody ever tried to selective breed them other than spreading the ones humans and older animals carried to distance.

https://www.cnn.com/2019/10/11/world/la-brea-tar-pits-3d-scanning-scn
“But the unique nature of the La Brea Tar Pits is that they preserved an entire ecosystem between 10,000 to 50,000 years ago, containing massive mammoth tusks and giant sloth bones alongside acorns and microscopic plant and insect fossils. More than 100 species of birds and a number of other species were first described after being found at La Brea.“

[Sigmetnow]

Interesting.  Thanks!

I feed an assortment of wild critters in the back yard.  Love the rare visits by BobWhite quail.

[Alexander555]

There is a high number circulating on the internet, how much temperature could rise. They are talking about 3 degree C by 2025. And even much more a couple years later. Sounds incorrect. But if you look at these graph, it makes you think.

[The Walrus]

I think we have a disconnect.  The previous relationship was based on all natural processes, whereby a temperature increase resulted in an increase in atmospheric carbon dioxide.  We have changed the dynamics by introducing a large concentration of carbon dioxide into the mix.  We do not know what will happen.

[Alexander555]

They are talking about tipping points. How big is the chance that a next El Niño will finish what is left of the sea ice ? Loss of albedo, warmer arctic waters, methane rising from the arctic ocean..... It will probably all add a little.

[be cause]

missing in the big picture is the importance of 'home' , a place where you can live , love and procreate , be born and die without fear . Where Neven sees his East and West Ukraine , I see many millions lose what should be their birth right . This lack of concern for the individual is what is destroying us and our planet .

[The Walrus]

So true.  Society, as a whole, is trying to force people to conform to their predetermined set of rules.  This is evident in nationalism, political correctness, groupthink, and collectivism.  Within such groups, phrases such as, "the ends justifies the means," or "for the good of the whole." can be heard, which legitimizes certain actions, at the expense of some individuals (usually minorities).  When those with opposing viewpoints became the evil enemy, instead of a worthy adversary, we started on the path towards tribalism.

[kassy]

Depends on when you start it but if it is next year it probably won´t do that yet and their numbers are probably wrong. Extrapolate the historical trend and add some extra temperature rise for pollution fall out as we clean up but that is just not going to get you 3C by 2025. 

Edit: home is problematic for many already and it will get worse.

[Alexander555]

The tipping points are a little bit like  grey zones . They are talking about a "latent heat buffer", or the loss of it. There is a video about it on you tube. The melting ice keeps the temperature near zero, until it's gone. After, the temperature starts to rise fast. And that's not the case yet. That should lift the temperature north of 80 in summer. And that has been more below the average so far.