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Sleepy

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Re: Extinction Rebellion
« Reply #100 on: April 24, 2019, 07:31:47 AM »
Further recycling, one girls message from last year:
Another from the "We Don't Have Time" series (posted earlier in this thread).

A message to all adults out there who are busy defending an obsolete lifestyle.


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Sleepy

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Re: Extinction Rebellion
« Reply #101 on: April 24, 2019, 08:06:20 AM »
Wise old words.
"Because when the window opens, you have to know what to do."


99 views.

Edit; adding this as well:
https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2019/apr/23/politicians-reluctance-on-climate-change-is-bizarre-action-would-not-only-be-right-but-popular
« Last Edit: April 24, 2019, 08:14:37 AM by Sleepy »
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Neven

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Re: Extinction Rebellion
« Reply #102 on: April 24, 2019, 11:07:32 AM »
Wise old words.

Yes, definitely, especially compared to NeilT's conventional wisdom, which is shallow and ultimately aimed at maintaining the status quo. Every time I read that stuff, I think of zizek's recent rants.
Il faut comparer, comparer, comparer, et cultiver notre jardin

Tom_Mazanec

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Re: Extinction Rebellion
« Reply #103 on: April 24, 2019, 01:27:02 PM »
I just hope ER has legs...I remember the ecomovement of the Sixties. Those hippies are now the old fogies and CO2 rise has been exponential for half a century with nary a blip.
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gerontocrat

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Re: Extinction Rebellion
« Reply #104 on: April 24, 2019, 01:48:28 PM »
I remember the ecomovement of the Sixties. Those hippies are now the old fogies

Steady on, Tom!
Yes, I was a revolting student, and like most of us got married and was sucked into "normality".
But not dead yet...

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I'd like to age disgracefully
And do all the things i like
Like eating biscuits while in bed
And riding naked on my bike
I think as we grow older
Then some things are left behind
Some with regret i have to say
But i think there's greater peace of mind
There's a returning to the playful
And an opening of eyes
Even if your energies
Are sometimes compromised
So, lets all grow old disgracefully
And let the young ones say
The day that i am older
I want to be that way.

David Keig, 1951
"Para a Causa do Povo a Luta Continua!"
"And that's all I'm going to say about that". Forrest Gump
"Damn, I wanted to see what happened next" (Epitaph)

Sparkles

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Re: Extinction Rebellion
« Reply #105 on: April 24, 2019, 01:59:43 PM »
I just hope ER has legs...I remember the ecomovement of the Sixties. Those hippies are now the old fogies and CO2 rise has been exponential for half a century with nary a blip.

I'm retired now, but going up to the Extinction Rebellion camp I felt an adrenaline rush of excitement - and plenty of people my age were there too, including many that were arrested including the two from my local XR group.  We've still got energy to fight, and the freedom from employment concerns to do it
« Last Edit: April 24, 2019, 02:12:01 PM by Sparkles »

P-maker

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Re: Extinction Rebellion
« Reply #106 on: April 24, 2019, 11:48:49 PM »
An interesting perspective was presented on national news this evening by professor Ole Wæver - U of Copenhagen. He made the point that some of the protesters depicted in this thread may turn to "Eco terror" at some stage, if protests did not have the expected impacts on society. He called this the "small risk". On the other hand, he feared that the system would eventually have to revert to "System terror", in case "Shit hits the fan" before we know it. He called this the "big risk". System terror would eventually put democratic principles aside in order to maintain stability of our societies through a global crisis situation.

Neither of these two possibilities look attractive at face value, but if no other alternatives exist, taking the "small risk" path may turn out to be the least drastic way out of our misery. Putting all your hopes into the UN's Security Council to sort out drastic measures at short notice seems not to be a viable option.

Niall Dollard

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Re: Extinction Rebellion
« Reply #107 on: April 25, 2019, 02:28:05 AM »
Of course social media did its best to disgrace the XR protest in London with several posters putting up images of a thrashed park in London.
This was nothing to do with XR but was the aftermath of the cannabis 420 festival in Hyde Park. Only connection was that many of the XR protesters went to aid the cleanup.

https://www.snopes.com/fact-check/protesters-hyde-park-rubbish/

jai mitchell

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Re: Extinction Rebellion
« Reply #108 on: April 25, 2019, 04:34:33 AM »
The only way to turn this ship around is public action to restore a democratic representation in governance.

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josh-j

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Re: Extinction Rebellion
« Reply #109 on: April 25, 2019, 08:34:17 PM »
Define support?  I've been there, repeating the information that you can't keep on pushing CO2 into the atmosphere, since the early 1990's as my interest was triggered in the mid 1980's.  I have taken the abuse, the laughter, the isolation and the derision for decades.  Yet I have never wavered in making sure that I won't be in a room where disinformation is being disseminated without having a say with the truth.

I will still be doing this a decade from today.  But, at least, there will be more people who listen.

ER?  A few demonstrations and a government minister, from a failing and desperate government, agrees to have a few "talks".  Macron agreed to "talk" to the Giles Jeaune's too.  Didn't get very far did it?

With all due respect to  you as someone with undoubtedly greater experience in these matters than myself, all this really says is that you've been campaigning a long time and X/ER haven't. That doesn't seem like a good reason to dismiss what they're doing. This has all only just happened; if the talks go nowhere you can bet that XR won't be going away.

Quote
You see that's the problem with being older.  We've already seen this kind of demonstrations.  Over and over and over again.

This conversation reminds me of somebody I met once while I was handing out XR leaflets. He's a seasoned environmental campaigner, somebody who I'd heard of before and who is quite keenly involved in local environmental issues. Broadly speaking the conversation was along the lines of "it won't work because nothing works, I've seen all this before, nothing works and by the way don't trust the police". Now to be fair he did have more specific criticisms of XR and that's totally fair enough, but I really can't get on board with the "nothing has worked, therefore nothing will ever work" thing. Not least because things are different now; we have really short timescales to work with that fall within the lives of people already alive now.

Now, I do accept that doing things *differently* to what has failed in the past might be a good idea. In fact I think this is what XR are doing; they've raised it to a new level. Do you know how much news coverage a march I went on called "Going Backwards On Climate Change" got? Pretty much none really. But look at XR - they've been all over the media (in the UK) in a way that no other climate campaign has ever managed. They've been sat in major TV studios telling the public that civilization could well collapse, that we need deep green adaptation, that we need radical and far reaching change. Rupert Read has been particularly notable in that regard, getting those points across very well in the face of some rather ignorant interviewers.

Quote
Just one little problem.  Nobody is going to produce 30 million EV's next week, or next year or next decade (well, maybe that).  As for 26 million solar roof's and powerwalls?  Right, not going to happen is it.

So that's solar.  Wind?  We're already doing that.  Just like Germany our power cost is climbing and everyone is up in arms.  But it's worth the cost.  Well if we can actually get rid of all those CCGT power stations that ensure you have power on a still winters night.

And what about tidal?  Well you see most of those people who support ER don't want a Severn barrier.  Why?  Well, it might, just might, disturb some local species which live there.  The fact that those local species are going to face their own extinction in the next half century, through CO2 based AGW doesn't seem to have filtered through.

Right let me address this a bit in terms of XR's plan. Clearly you've already addressed some issues in overview by stating that nothing will work because isn't it all so difficult - but in fact XR does not seek to set out specifics.

One of the key demands of XR is for a citizens assembly to be formed to decide how to proceed nationally to deal with climate change as an emergency situation. There is precedent for such assemblies, not least in Ireland very recently - and as a result of the blockades last week this concept has had airtime on national TV.

The idea would be for citizens to be randomly selected to serve in the assembly, be fully briefed with all the facts and asked to choose the way forward. XR is not prescribing what needs to happen. It is a rather anti-capitalist movement but frankly the crisis probably does need anti-capitalist measures so I can see why that would be; nevertheless they do not seek to make this a political battle or to claim to be the people with all the answers. They want everybody to be involved and work out what to do; but getting to that point means massively raising awareness and forcing the government to sit up. Hence, blockades and glue.

Before the first actions in London some months ago, Roger Hallam (one of the co-founders) was interviewed saying that there would probably need to be 1,000 or so arrests in order to bring the Government to the table. That happened over the past week (might even be an unprecedented number of arrests in one police operation?) and now the Government has agreed to talks. One step at a time - yes the talks might not go anywhere, but if so we can already see that there is a great deal of support for XR and a large number of people willing to take part in further actions at large scale.

So lets see. For myself, I think this is something which could snowball in a big way (it already has, really).

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Re: Extinction Rebellion
« Reply #110 on: April 26, 2019, 03:03:35 AM »
An interesting perspective was presented on national news this evening by professor Ole Wæver - U of Copenhagen. He made the point that some of the protesters depicted in this thread may turn to "Eco terror" at some stage, if protests did not have the expected impacts on society. He called this the "small risk". On the other hand, he feared that the system would eventually have to revert to "System terror", in case "Shit hits the fan" before we know it. He called this the "big risk". System terror would eventually put democratic principles aside in order to maintain stability of our societies through a global crisis situation.

Neither of these two possibilities look attractive at face value, but if no other alternatives exist, taking the "small risk" path may turn out to be the least drastic way out of our misery. Putting all your hopes into the UN's Security Council to sort out drastic measures at short notice seems not to be a viable option.

The climate catastrophy will not be televised

There is a principle which is a bar against all information, which cannot fail to keep a man in everlasting ignorance. That principle is contempt prior to investigation. - Herbert Spencer

Sleepy

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Re: Extinction Rebellion
« Reply #111 on: April 26, 2019, 06:22:52 AM »
Since Greta is yet again facing a shitstorm of false accusations in our MSM, this time conspiracy theories created by our beloved SD leader (I won't go into that), I'll add this here (without the audio track).
The ultimate guide to all critics of Greta.
https://twitter.com/pa_jorden/status/1120743322417606663
Omnia mirari, etiam tritissima.
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Science is a jealous mistress and takes little account of a man's feelings.

ASILurker

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Re: Extinction Rebellion
« Reply #112 on: April 26, 2019, 07:19:15 AM »


You've got what it takes Josh. Keep looking and moving forward. Kudos!

ASILurker

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Re: Extinction Rebellion
« Reply #113 on: April 26, 2019, 07:21:36 AM »
Since Greta is yet again facing a shitstorm of false accusations in our MSM

Delightful.

How to get that on CNN et al and put a bomb under the old farts? :)

where 'facts' tends to equal 'psychological bombs' leading to uncomfortable cognitive dissonance.

ASILurker

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Re: Extinction Rebellion
« Reply #114 on: April 26, 2019, 07:34:09 AM »
UPFSI @ COP24 Poland
Published on 7 Dec 2018
Greta Thunberg, Nils Agger & Liam Geary Baulch join us to introduce the Extinction Rebellion that's begun in the UK this year. (it's not rocket science folks!)



Extinction Rebellion (with all the facts and details of why XR makes perfect logical sense)
Published on 28 Mar 2019



Amy Goodman (Democracy Now) Interviews Liam Geary Baulch of Extinction Rebellion
@ COP 24 Poland - Dec 2018



As my dad used to say in the 60s and 70s: Get a hair cut you mug! You look like a girl! ;)

Sleepy

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Re: Extinction Rebellion
« Reply #115 on: April 26, 2019, 10:03:28 AM »
This is what scares some. There's nothing wrong with her English.
https://twitter.com/nowthisnews/status/1121402982229250048
Adding that ^ video below, had to lower quality, also no MAC support to reach an acceptable size.
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gerontocrat

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Re: Extinction Rebellion
« Reply #116 on: April 26, 2019, 05:21:41 PM »
London Extinction Rebellion mural is a Banksy, says expert
Art dealer who owns a dozen pieces by the street artist is convinced by Marble Arch work


Quote
A Banksy collector and expert believes a mural that appeared at Extinction Rebellion’s Marble Arch base overnight is an authentic piece by the Bristolian street artist.

John Brandler, who owns a dozen pieces by Banksy is convinced the artwork – which features the slogan “From this moment despair ends and tactics begin” next to a young girl sitting on the ground holding an Extinction Rebellion logo – is an original because of its execution and theme.

The art dealer and gallerist said: “I’m convinced about the one in London for two reasons: it’s a topic that he would support, and it’s a continuation of the Port Talbot piece that appeared in December 2018.

“The name in the corner is not important, the signature is the work. And this is a Banksy. It’s a wonderful statement and a beautiful piece.”

The work appeared at the site which had been occupied by climate activists since protests began in the capital almost two weeks ago.
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"And that's all I'm going to say about that". Forrest Gump
"Damn, I wanted to see what happened next" (Epitaph)

b_lumenkraft

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Re: Extinction Rebellion
« Reply #117 on: April 26, 2019, 06:48:29 PM »
Iconic! <3

ASILurker

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Re: Extinction Rebellion
« Reply #118 on: April 27, 2019, 07:29:01 AM »
George Harrison's 1981 album SOMEWHERE IN ENGLAND.

"We've got to save the world. Someone else may want to use it."


Sleepy

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Re: Extinction Rebellion
« Reply #119 on: April 27, 2019, 09:05:13 AM »
Let's start to acknowledge the Rest Of the World.

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Sleepy

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Re: Extinction Rebellion
« Reply #120 on: April 27, 2019, 10:11:17 AM »
Yesterday I was called a fool because I prefer to use my own two feet. :)
Found this comment very apt:
https://twitter.com/GeorgeMonbiot/status/1121775123005100032
If you are middle class, they call you a champagne socialist
If you are working class, they say it's the politics of envy
If you wear leather shoes, they call you a hypocrite
If you don't, they call you a hippy.
Everyone, apparently, is disqualified from challenging the system.
Omnia mirari, etiam tritissima.
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Science is a jealous mistress and takes little account of a man's feelings.

ASILurker

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Re: Extinction Rebellion
« Reply #121 on: April 27, 2019, 10:46:09 AM »
Some XR anecdotes:

Quote
(Climate Rebel,) Freya Nolin, a 21 yr old from Fremantle WA was charged with a $10,000 fine this Tuedsay in the Bowen Magistrate’s court after blocking coal trains from entering Adani’s Abbot Point last month.The action took place as part of a week long event, ‘Shut Down Adani’, where Whitsunday locals and people from all over Australia came together to demand the Adani Carmichael mine be scrapped. [...]

Earlier this year Adani was fined $13,000 for releasing polluted water into the Cally Valley wetlands. in 2017 Adani was fined $12,000 for releasing polluted water into the ocean adjacent to Abbot Point.
https://ausrebellion.earth/media-release/21-yr-old-climate-activist-hit-with-highest-fines-in-australias-environmental-history/

Quote
Day four: Thursday (18 April) A peaceful demonstration in Brisbane, Queensland the same day was violently attacked by police. Six climate rebels were ambushed by the Queensland police services cyber crime and tactical response units moments before the action took place leading to all six being arrested (Some violently with heads being bashed, some having their legs kicked out from underneath them at the hands of police.) Two (rebels) were charged with offences and four (rebels) were released with no charge.”
https://ausrebellion.earth/updates/international-rebellion-first-week-in-australia/

Quote
Day one: Monday (15 April)  In Adelaide, South Australia, rebels entered Parliament house while sitting was in process and demanded the declaration of a climate emergency. They were forcibly removed by security. But the story made the evening TV news on two stations.

Sydney rebels staged a ‘die in’ dramatically dropping dead in the streets.
Protesters dropped “dead” in the middle of the busy streets of Sydney, Australia on Monday to highlight the emergency we are all facing due to catastrophic climate change.
https://ausrebellion.earth/updates/international-rebellion-first-week-in-australia/

The term is 'rebels' :)

NevB

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Re: Extinction Rebellion
« Reply #122 on: April 27, 2019, 11:00:34 AM »
Some XR anecdotes:

Quote
(Climate Rebel,) Freya Nolin, a 21 yr old from Fremantle WA was charged with a $10,000 fine this Tuedsay in the Bowen Magistrate’s court after blocking coal trains from entering Adani’s Abbot Point last month.The action took place as part of a week long event, ‘Shut Down Adani’, where Whitsunday locals and people from all over Australia came together to demand the Adani Carmichael mine be scrapped. [...]

Earlier this year Adani was fined $13,000 for releasing polluted water into the Cally Valley wetlands. in 2017 Adani was fined $12,000 for releasing polluted water into the ocean adjacent to Abbot Point.
https://ausrebellion.earth/media-release/21-yr-old-climate-activist-hit-with-highest-fines-in-australias-environmental-history/

Quote
Day four: Thursday (18 April) A peaceful demonstration in Brisbane, Queensland the same day was violently attacked by police. Six climate rebels were ambushed by the Queensland police services cyber crime and tactical response units moments before the action took place leading to all six being arrested (Some violently with heads being bashed, some having their legs kicked out from underneath them at the hands of police.) Two (rebels) were charged with offences and four (rebels) were released with no charge.”
https://ausrebellion.earth/updates/international-rebellion-first-week-in-australia/

Quote
Day one: Monday (15 April)  In Adelaide, South Australia, rebels entered Parliament house while sitting was in process and demanded the declaration of a climate emergency. They were forcibly removed by security. But the story made the evening TV news on two stations.

Sydney rebels staged a ‘die in’ dramatically dropping dead in the streets.
Protesters dropped “dead” in the middle of the busy streets of Sydney, Australia on Monday to highlight the emergency we are all facing due to catastrophic climate change.
https://ausrebellion.earth/updates/international-rebellion-first-week-in-australia/

The term is 'rebels' :)

No a word in the media here, not even the Guardian which is the only left leaning outlet in the country. Not even a mention on Twitter.

ASILurker

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Re: Extinction Rebellion
« Reply #123 on: April 27, 2019, 05:10:39 PM »
Goodness me, these protests are even inconveniencing people on their way to work ... surely this cannot stand. Protests interrupting people's normal day? Perish the thought old chap.



The 10 Working Principles of Extinction Rebellion
1. We have a shared vision of change 2. We set our mission on what is necessary 3. We need a re-generative culture 4. We hopefully challenge ourselves, and this toxic system 5. We value reflection and learning 6. We welcome everyone, and every part of everyone into Extinction Rebellion 7. We actively mitigate for power 8. We avoid blaming and shaming 9. We are a non-violent movement 10. We are based on autonomy and de-centralization

( It'll never catch on :) )

Sleepy

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Re: Extinction Rebellion
« Reply #124 on: April 29, 2019, 08:30:59 AM »
A nice 40 minute summary by James Dyke.

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Re: Extinction Rebellion
« Reply #125 on: April 29, 2019, 11:36:54 AM »
Owen Jones (Leftie Guardian journalist) meets Extinction Rebellion, "We're the planet's fire alarm" - Apr26th


Sleepy

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Re: Extinction Rebellion
« Reply #126 on: May 01, 2019, 11:35:00 AM »
Greta is just a child and this chap is just, eh, old?
(Added MAC support and doubled the size.)
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gerontocrat

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Re: Extinction Rebellion
« Reply #127 on: May 01, 2019, 08:06:12 PM »
Every time I think I am immune to the vileness within the DNA of the human species, I read something that gets through the shield..

https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2019/may/01/greta-thunberg-right-environmental-activist-attacks

The hounding of Greta Thunberg is proof that the right has run out of ideas
Aditya Chakrabortty

Quote
Over the past few days, something extraordinary has happened in our politics. A bunch of grown men have begun bullying a schoolgirl. Perhaps you already know who I mean: Greta Thunberg, she of the pigtails and school strikes, who came to Westminster last week and slammed adoring MPs for posturing rather than taking action on climate breakdown, then hoofed it over to St Pancras for the 36-hour train ride back to Stockholm.

Which left the eco-denialists back here with a stonking great headache: how to bash this 16-year-old celeb? Not by dismantling her arguments, not when the scientists and Sir David of Blue Planet back her up. Nor by sniffing around her record, since by definition a teenager hasn’t much of a past to rake over. The standard methods of political warfare off-limits to them, they are trying something new and unusual. They are sinking their teeth into her.
 
She was “chilling”, declared Brendan O’Neill, editor of the hard-right website Spiked, after picking on her “monotone voice” and “look of apocalyptic dread in her eyes”. Given Thunberg’s openness about her Asperger’s, this was a dog whistle if he knew about it, but it was at best crass if he didn’t: the kid’s on the spectrum! Bringing up the rear were the bloggers at Guido Fawkes, trying to eke a three-course meal out of the morsel that Thunberg’s mum performed in the Eurovision song contest 10 years ago – cast-iron proof of “an incredibly privileged background”. This finding has been gurningly spread on social media by none other than that vomiting dustbin of opinions Toby Young. You don’t need to be much sharper than him to observe that he is the son of a baron who rang Oxford University to get his boy a place.

This is sad and it is desperate, but one thing it is not is insignificant. Both O’Neill and the Guido Fawkes site form part of the wider ecology of rightwing thinking. O’Neill is a regular on the rolling-news channels, with their unquenchable demands for just-add-water controversy; Guido Fawkes supplies both gossip and personnel to the rest of the British media.

Sure enough, by last weekend the Spectator and the Sunday Times were hosting attacks on this schoolgirl revolutionary, with her authoritarian demands about not destroying the environment, with Rod Liddle in the Sunday paper devoting almost half a page to “that weird Swedish kid” and her “imbecilic” supporters. The Spectator apparently can’t get enough of this story, even running a piece by Helen Dale, who posted a tweet calling for “this Greta Thunberg character” to “have a meltdown on national telly”. This was a “gag”, Dale says now, deploying the excuse of bullies down the ages: can’t you take a joke?
"Para a Causa do Povo a Luta Continua!"
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Re: Extinction Rebellion
« Reply #128 on: May 01, 2019, 10:17:24 PM »
There's plenty more of that vileness here, I won't go into that, rather display her incredibly privileged background. Yes, her mother and grandfather are well known here but beware, this is scary stuff for grown up men:



Olof Thunberg is, for many here, the voice of "Bamse" The world's strongest bear (cartoon since 1966) and the most scary thing he probably ever did was the voice of Grumpy in Snow White and the Seven Dwarfs. He will be 94 this month.

But the Earth might tremble if Greta shares her mothers voice. My place on Earth:

Omnia mirari, etiam tritissima.
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Science is a jealous mistress and takes little account of a man's feelings.

sidd

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Re: Extinction Rebellion
« Reply #129 on: May 01, 2019, 10:26:17 PM »
"First, they ignore you, then they laugh at you, then they fight you, then you win."

sidd

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Re: Extinction Rebellion
« Reply #130 on: May 02, 2019, 02:09:01 AM »
British Parliament Declares 'Climate Change Emergency'   
https://dw.com/en/british-parliament-declares-climate-change-emergency/a-48568627

Lawmakers have approved a motion requiring the government to make proposals to "restore the UK's natural environment." The move comes after protesters demonstrated for days, causing road closures and transit chaos.

After a week and a half of protests in London by climate change activists, the British Parliament has declared a symbolic "environment and climate change emergency." Lawmakers backed a call by Jeremy Corbyn, leader of the opposition Labour Party, for "rapid and dramatic action" to protect the environment.

The non-binding motion calls on Prime Minister Theresa May's government to make proposals to Parliament in the next six months to "restore the UK's natural environment and to deliver a circular, zero waste economy."

The measure was passed as an opposition motion, using a procedure the ruling party typically ignores, and has no direct consequences for policy.
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SteveMDFP

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Re: Extinction Rebellion
« Reply #131 on: May 02, 2019, 02:15:56 AM »
"First, they ignore you, then they laugh at you, then they fight you, then you win."

sidd

Indeed.  Thanks, sidd.  Those were exactly the words I needed to (re-)read as my bile was rising.  Yes, Greta's approach is exactly what the world needs.

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Re: Extinction Rebellion
« Reply #132 on: May 02, 2019, 06:53:29 AM »
Greta has no skeletons in the closet, or affiliations. She was part of the "We Don't Have Time" foundation for a while, until media made an ostrich out of that feather, claiming this was purely business etc... She never made any money and left the foundation immediately.

They can't touch her, no wonder some are acting like little babies.
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Gray-Wolf

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Re: Extinction Rebellion
« Reply #133 on: May 02, 2019, 11:47:35 AM »
British Parliament Declares 'Climate Change Emergency'   
https://dw.com/en/british-parliament-declares-climate-change-emergency/a-48568627

Lawmakers have approved a motion requiring the government to make proposals to "restore the UK's natural environment." The move comes after protesters demonstrated for days, causing road closures and transit chaos.


The measure was passed as an opposition motion, using a procedure the ruling party typically ignores, and has no direct consequences for policy.

I sat through the debate and , true enough, by the end the right wing were mouthing support but demanding we don't break their glorious Capitalist neolib venture.....

The thing is ( fort me) it has finished the denialist right here in the UK by advising the non thinking public that we are in a climate emergency?

Some of the MSM clips of Corbyn contain some ( for the uninitiated) scary facts of where we are bound, should we remain inactive toward climate & Environment .

All in all a good day for folk of my persuasion.
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RealityCheck

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Re: Extinction Rebellion
« Reply #134 on: May 08, 2019, 06:47:25 PM »
Re Extinction Rebellion & Deep Adaptation: I have found that the central ideas of the 'Deep Adaptation Agenda' resonate strongly with me: namely that climate change will cause – and is already causing in some places – widespread disruption to the established ways that society operates; and in fact, that severe societal damage, even perhaps collapse, may now be inevitable to some extent.

The original (non-scientific) paper/reflection by Prof Jem Bendell that 'kicked off' the Deep Adaptation movement / forum / blog / etc is at the following link: http://www.lifeworth.com/deepadaptation.pdf .

This was discussed briefly in another thread on ASIF under the ‘Science’ section; but I think that’s not the best place for it. It’s not a science paper, really, even though it does reference a number of publications. It’s more of a reflective piece-cum-manifesto calling for a particular style of response and action, aimed at reducing future suffering from societal disruption. Since I think this has merit, and to broaden the discussion, I thought a summary / introduction might be helpful. So here is some background.

In his paper, Prof Bendell describes the process that led him to his new understandings of the situation our global society finds itself in; some of the logic that led to his conclusions; his own personal responses and process to deal with those realisations; and an outline of his intended approach to address the implications - the 'Deep Adaptation Agenda.' This he summarised as 'the 3 R's - Resilience, Relinquishment and Restoration.'

In this next link, Prof Bendell has a 'conversation' with Jeremy Lent, who had responded to his original paper; he tackles the challenge of 'Green Positivity', the tendency to try to emphasise 'hopefulness' and so avoid facing the pain of what he sees as impending societal disruption. It expands on some of his thinking, and addresses some of the common criticisms that 'Green Positivity' might level at his views.

https://jembendell.wordpress.com/2019/04/10/responding-to-green-positivity-critiques-of-deep-adaptation/ 

In this next one Prof Bendell responds to a letter from Business Leaders who wrote in support of Extinction Rebellion.

https://jembendell.wordpress.com/2019/04/25/an-open-letter-to-business-supporters-of-extinction-rebellion/ 

It turns out Prof Bendell has been involved at the early stages of Extinction Rebellion, and played a role (perhaps a major one, at that) in crafting its philosophy and approach.

The Deep Adaptation Forum is a hub set up by Prof Bendell for practitioners of many backgrounds with an interest in this area, and who can agree with its starting premises (as set out on the website). It is organised into Groups by area of interest. One purpose of the forum is to encourage and help organise like-minded people to hold real-world or online meetings / workshops, on themes related to the forum's world-view and the Deep Adaptation Agenda. The link to the forum is here.

https://deepadaptation.ning.com/

I hope the ASIF community finds this helpful.
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Shared Humanity

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Re: Extinction Rebellion
« Reply #135 on: May 09, 2019, 03:46:43 PM »

I haven't yet seen what ER is asking for.  What exactly do they want? 

So all those people in London and what do they want?

Because, honestly, I have no clue and I doubt that they do either.


WE DEMAND:
1). Governments tell the truth about the ecological Crisis
2). Zero emissions & drawdown by 2025
3). Participatory Democracy



Sorry Neil. Sounds to me like they know exactly what they want.

The movement is called "Extinction Rebellion". The name is certainly due to the fact that they understand that BAU which is exactly what we are doing will lead to catastrophic climate change before the end of this century. Some of our most informed climate scientists have correctly stated that 3C-4C warming is incompatible with human civilization. The IPCC states very clearly that in order to avoid catastrophic climate change we must reduce anthropogenic global warming emissions in 2030 by 40% and be carbon neutral by 2050.

If you dispute these facts, then there is no longer any need for us to discuss this.

The three, very specific demands listed above go right to the very heart of our problem and, if each of these demands were met, we would avert the most devastating crisis humanity has ever faced.

When I reread carefully your comments, they pretty much boil down to...

"Yeah, but it is really hard."

And please don't set up just to knock down some BS strawman and suggest they are talking about violent revolution. Participatory Democracy has a kind of nice ring to it.
« Last Edit: May 09, 2019, 03:51:59 PM by Shared Humanity »

Tom_Mazanec

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Re: Extinction Rebellion
« Reply #136 on: May 09, 2019, 04:24:13 PM »
Shared Humanity:
 
Do those three demands fit together?
Because Participatory Democracy gave America Donald Trump.
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Shared Humanity

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Re: Extinction Rebellion
« Reply #137 on: May 09, 2019, 06:30:42 PM »
Shared Humanity:
 
Do those three demands fit together?
Because Participatory Democracy gave America Donald Trump.

You are equating going to the polls with Participatory Democracy. To clear up your confusion, you might want to read this...

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Participatory_democracy

The problem we are confronting permeates every aspect of human civilization and all of its institutions. (political, economic, social, cultural, religious etc.) Effective solutions will only be identified and implemented when all of these institutions and individuals work together to devise them.

"But...but...but...this is really, really hard!"

Yes, but everything worth doing is.
« Last Edit: May 09, 2019, 06:37:59 PM by Shared Humanity »

Tom_Mazanec

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Re: Extinction Rebellion
« Reply #138 on: May 09, 2019, 06:45:34 PM »
OK, Shared Humanity.
I am glad you realize this is really, really hard.
I thought you might be like I suspect a lot of the Extinction Rebellion protesters are, figuring they can just demand it and hold their breath until they get it.
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Shared Humanity

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Re: Extinction Rebellion
« Reply #139 on: May 09, 2019, 07:09:05 PM »
OK, Shared Humanity.
I am glad you realize this is really, really hard.
I thought you might be like I suspect a lot of the Extinction Rebellion protesters are, figuring they can just demand it and hold their breath until they get it.

The quote was a paraphrase of most of what Neil posts. I really don't give a shit how hard it is. If we don't become carbon neutral by 2050, we are screwed. The only way this can be done is if we first recognize the need and are galvanized to action. Anyone who is throwing their energy into ER is doing humanity a service and cynical responses to their efforts should be dismissed.

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Re: Extinction Rebellion
« Reply #140 on: May 09, 2019, 07:45:52 PM »
Well, creating publicity is a part of it. We need to address AGW.
I don't know how Participatory Democracy would work in a world of 8 billion people, though.
SHARKS (CROSSED OUT) MONGEESE (SIC) WITH FRICKIN LASER BEAMS ATTACHED TO THEIR HEADS

rboyd

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Re: Extinction Rebellion
« Reply #141 on: May 09, 2019, 09:00:15 PM »
Manufacture and co-option of Protest Groups

Extinction Rebellion really worries me, as it fits the most likely scenario for how the elite will manage/screw-up the response to climate change - and thats just part of the ongoing anthropogenic destruction of our habitat.

Stage 1 (1979-1990): THE HOPEFUL DECADE:

Scientists raise the issue (first World Climate Conference in 1979) and slowly bring it to the attention of policy makers/politicians. Calls for significant cuts in GHG's from the mid-1980's onwards (yep, from the mid 1980's!).

Stage 2 (1990-2000): HOPE LOST:

Policy makers / politicians say very nice words and have hopeful conferences (1992 Rio Earth Summit) then spend the rest of the decade killing real action with political realpolitik and bureaucratic bullshit. We end up with Kyoto, with pathetically small commitments (and none for Chindia etc.)."Eco-modernism", "Green Capitalism" etc. become the academic and business vogue.

Stage 3 (2000-2010): ALL HOPE LOST:

The US rejects the pathetic Kyoto Accord, China massively increases coal use and places like the EU reduce emissions at a rate that does not endanger their low growth rates (i.e. slowly and benefitting from the collapse of dirty industries in the ex Soviet Bloc that make the 1990 comparisons look pretty good).

Stage 4 (2010-Now): THE BULLSHIT DECADE:

The UN IPCC scenario builders realize that even with all the devices already used to spin a positive message (e.g. 66% and 50% probability levels rather than the usual 95% for risk management), atmospheric concentrations and emissions are just too high so they use a "plug factor" called BECCS (Bio Energy Carbon Capture and Storage) to allow for future growth while cutting NET emissions (I talked with fellow academics who confirmed this view). Then we have the Paris agreement with voluntary commitments which are not being backed up in many cases by government policies (including my own Canada).

Stage 5: NOW

The only way to keep the "we can grow and deal with climate change" charade on the road is the massive use of negative emissions technologies to offset emissions (BECCS, Direct Air Capture and Storage, Enhanced Rock Weathering) and Solar Radiation Management. There will be massive resistance to this, especially when it will be structured as a huge profit-making activity for big corporations and finance (e.g. the commodification of nature and integration into the market - i.e. extreme ecological modernization). Both the eco-modernists and the fossil fuel interests will be supportive, with the latter seeing it as a way to put off their own extinction.

So, we need a crisis with a "grassroots" organization that makes extremely high-level demands (e.g. "carbon neutral by 2025") that does not preclude the above policy options. That "grassroots" driven crisis can then be used to ram through the negative emissions technologies and SRM.

Endless growth and the concentration of wealth get to roll on for one or more decades - with the risk that the proposed technologies are bullshit (they are completely unproven at scale, with BECCS already having been taken apart by many academics) and/or the climate delivers a nasty surprise (e.g. an Arctic Blue Ocean).

Why are the very corporations and interests that are the cause of the problem so supportive of ER? Because it is an opportunity not a threat? Why did the police allow the disabling of major transport arteries in London for days, when they would usually remove these within hours? What usually happens with groups that truly challenge the status quo in a meaningful and possibly successful way:

"First they ignore you. Then they ridicule you. And then they attack you and want to burn you. And then they build monuments to you. And that, is what is going to happen to the Amalgamated Clothing Workers of America" Union leader Nicholas Klein in 1914. (p.s. Gandhi never said anything like this, its the most well know misattribution).

I didn't notice the "ignore, ridicule, attack and burn" parts with ER, seems they started past that point already. If they were a real threat, rather than an opportunity, they would be getting the treatment that Occupy got once it was established that it could not be co-opted.

"Its easier to imagine the end of humanity than the end of capitalism"
« Last Edit: May 09, 2019, 09:31:31 PM by rboyd »

rboyd

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Re: Extinction Rebellion
« Reply #142 on: May 09, 2019, 09:27:44 PM »
THE ROAD TO HELL IS PAVED WITH CORPORATE PROFITS AND COMPROMISED NGOS - The Wrong Kind of Green

I have to do some further research on the writers/researchers, and don't agree with everything they say, but their research does appear to be very thorough and points out many worrying aspects within the "Environmental NGO Industrial Complex" (a very apt description!). One of the main things to watch for is if the NGO is more "neoliberal eco-modernist" than seeing any issues with "business as usual" rescued by the miracles of technology and markets (with a little tweaking by governments though carbon pricing, cap and trade, the pricing of nature [e.g. "A New Deal for Nature"] etc.).

The first link is an another reporter's summary of the series, then the rest are the series.

http://www.wrongkindofgreen.org/2019/05/07/greta-thunberg-pr-and-the-climate-emergency/

http://www.theartofannihilation.com/the-manufacturing-of-greta-thunberg-for-consent-the-political-economy-of-the-non-profit-industrial-complex/

http://www.theartofannihilation.com/the-manufacturing-of-greta-thunberg-for-consent-the-inconvenient-truth-behind-youth-co-optation/

http://www.theartofannihilation.com/the-manufacturing-of-greta-thunberg-for-consent-the-most-inconvenient-truth-capitalism-is-in-danger-of-falling-apart/

http://www.theartofannihilation.com/the-manufacturing-of-greta-thunberg-for-consent-the-house-is-on-fire-the-90-trillion-dollar-rescue-part-iv/

http://www.theartofannihilation.com/the-manufacturing-of-greta-thunberg-for-consent-the-new-green-deal-is-the-trojan-horse-for-the-financialization-of-nature/

http://www.theartofannihilation.com/the-manufacturing-of-greta-thunberg-a-decade-of-social-manipulation-for-the-corporate-capture-of-nature-crescendo/

http://www.theartofannihilation.com/the-branding-of-alexandria-ocasio-cortez-by-any-means-necessary-addendum/

Human Habitat Index

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Re: Extinction Rebellion
« Reply #143 on: May 10, 2019, 02:03:06 AM »
Manufacture and co-option of Protest Groups

Extinction Rebellion really worries me, as it fits the most likely scenario for how the elite will manage/screw-up the response to climate change - and thats just part of the ongoing anthropogenic destruction of our habitat.

Stage 1 (1979-1990): THE HOPEFUL DECADE:

Scientists raise the issue (first World Climate Conference in 1979) and slowly bring it to the attention of policy makers/politicians. Calls for significant cuts in GHG's from the mid-1980's onwards (yep, from the mid 1980's!).

Stage 2 (1990-2000): HOPE LOST:

Policy makers / politicians say very nice words and have hopeful conferences (1992 Rio Earth Summit) then spend the rest of the decade killing real action with political realpolitik and bureaucratic bullshit. We end up with Kyoto, with pathetically small commitments (and none for Chindia etc.)."Eco-modernism", "Green Capitalism" etc. become the academic and business vogue.

Stage 3 (2000-2010): ALL HOPE LOST:

The US rejects the pathetic Kyoto Accord, China massively increases coal use and places like the EU reduce emissions at a rate that does not endanger their low growth rates (i.e. slowly and benefitting from the collapse of dirty industries in the ex Soviet Bloc that make the 1990 comparisons look pretty good).

Stage 4 (2010-Now): THE BULLSHIT DECADE:

The UN IPCC scenario builders realize that even with all the devices already used to spin a positive message (e.g. 66% and 50% probability levels rather than the usual 95% for risk management), atmospheric concentrations and emissions are just too high so they use a "plug factor" called BECCS (Bio Energy Carbon Capture and Storage) to allow for future growth while cutting NET emissions (I talked with fellow academics who confirmed this view). Then we have the Paris agreement with voluntary commitments which are not being backed up in many cases by government policies (including my own Canada).

Stage 5: NOW

The only way to keep the "we can grow and deal with climate change" charade on the road is the massive use of negative emissions technologies to offset emissions (BECCS, Direct Air Capture and Storage, Enhanced Rock Weathering) and Solar Radiation Management. There will be massive resistance to this, especially when it will be structured as a huge profit-making activity for big corporations and finance (e.g. the commodification of nature and integration into the market - i.e. extreme ecological modernization). Both the eco-modernists and the fossil fuel interests will be supportive, with the latter seeing it as a way to put off their own extinction.

So, we need a crisis with a "grassroots" organization that makes extremely high-level demands (e.g. "carbon neutral by 2025") that does not preclude the above policy options. That "grassroots" driven crisis can then be used to ram through the negative emissions technologies and SRM.

Endless growth and the concentration of wealth get to roll on for one or more decades - with the risk that the proposed technologies are bullshit (they are completely unproven at scale, with BECCS already having been taken apart by many academics) and/or the climate delivers a nasty surprise (e.g. an Arctic Blue Ocean).

Why are the very corporations and interests that are the cause of the problem so supportive of ER? Because it is an opportunity not a threat? Why did the police allow the disabling of major transport arteries in London for days, when they would usually remove these within hours? What usually happens with groups that truly challenge the status quo in a meaningful and possibly successful way:

"First they ignore you. Then they ridicule you. And then they attack you and want to burn you. And then they build monuments to you. And that, is what is going to happen to the Amalgamated Clothing Workers of America" Union leader Nicholas Klein in 1914. (p.s. Gandhi never said anything like this, its the most well know misattribution).

I didn't notice the "ignore, ridicule, attack and burn" parts with ER, seems they started past that point already. If they were a real threat, rather than an opportunity, they would be getting the treatment that Occupy got once it was established that it could not be co-opted.

"Its easier to imagine the end of humanity than the end of capitalism"

You made my day, brilliant
There is a principle which is a bar against all information, which cannot fail to keep a man in everlasting ignorance. That principle is contempt prior to investigation. - Herbert Spencer

wili

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Re: Extinction Rebellion
« Reply #144 on: May 10, 2019, 03:43:17 AM »
"...I suspect a lot of the Extinction Rebellion protesters are..."

tm 'suspects' this based on what evidence?
"A force de chercher de bonnes raisons, on en trouve; on les dit; et après on y tient, non pas tant parce qu'elles sont bonnes que pour ne pas se démentir." Choderlos de Laclos "You struggle to come up with some valid reasons, then cling to them, not because they're good, but just to not back down."

Tom_Mazanec

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Re: Extinction Rebellion
« Reply #145 on: May 10, 2019, 04:26:04 AM »
On what I've been reading about the protests, and what I know of general human nature.
A lot of the XR members doubtlessly do know how hard those three demands are, but al lot don't realize it, especially the younger ones.
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rboyd

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Re: Extinction Rebellion
« Reply #146 on: May 10, 2019, 05:17:50 AM »

WE DEMAND:

1. Tell The Truth:
Government must tell the truth by declaring a climate and ecological emergency, working with other institutions to communicate the urgency for change.

Governments are excellent at "declaring" something, then not doing much about it - just like the motion passed in the UK parliament

2. Act Now:
Government must act now to halt biodiversity loss and reduce greenhouse gas emissions to net zero by 2025.

Utterly unrealistic, strange that they would pick a goal that is so unrealistic - x% per year reductions would be a better one, perhaps

3. Beyond Politics:
Government must create and be led by the decisions of a Citizens’ Assembly on climate and ecological justice.

Seems very polite (British?) for an extinction rebellion.

https://rebellion.earth/the-truth/demands/

https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-politics-48126677

wili

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Re: Extinction Rebellion
« Reply #147 on: May 10, 2019, 06:47:06 AM »
TM wrote: "...al lot don't realize it..."

Just admit that you have no freakin idea what you're talking about. All you have are your prejudices about the left and about the young that you are eager to project out there into the world. But it just reveals you as an old hollow fool. (As are we all, by the way.)
"A force de chercher de bonnes raisons, on en trouve; on les dit; et après on y tient, non pas tant parce qu'elles sont bonnes que pour ne pas se démentir." Choderlos de Laclos "You struggle to come up with some valid reasons, then cling to them, not because they're good, but just to not back down."

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Re: Extinction Rebellion
« Reply #148 on: May 10, 2019, 08:16:29 AM »
You reminded me of this wili:
https://forum.arctic-sea-ice.net/index.php?topic=2337.0
There's at least three in here who don't consider themselves as fools.  ???
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Re: Extinction Rebellion
« Reply #149 on: May 10, 2019, 12:55:08 PM »
I was in "international development" for a long time. Very depressing watching NGO's being swallowed into the Government controlled bi-lateral and and multi-lateral systems, losing their independence and ability to challenge the status quo.

Maybe this time will be different? (Did I hear hollow laughter from the back? Yes, it was my daughter).
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