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gerontocrat

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Re: Extinction Rebellion
« Reply #150 on: May 10, 2019, 12:55:08 PM »
I was in "international development" for a long time. Very depressing watching NGO's being swallowed into the Government controlled bi-lateral and and multi-lateral systems, losing their independence and ability to challenge the status quo.

Maybe this time will be different? (Did I hear hollow laughter from the back? Yes, it was my daughter).
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rboyd

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Re: Extinction Rebellion
« Reply #151 on: May 10, 2019, 07:01:44 PM »
Tim, thanks for the kind words and information.

t is depressing to "take the red pill" on the big environmental NGO's and their interlinking with big corporations and foundations (and many other NGOs). I was a very enthusiastic member of 350.org until one day I "woke up" and realized all we did was march and have feel-good sessions but achieved nothing significant. For example, fighting to stop Keystone XL which only led to increased oil traffic on the railways (and more profit for Berkshire Hathaway).

I understand the dynamic as its really hard to fight year after year with little or no resources, including the money to pay the mortgage - especially as one gets older. The way our economy and society are set up makes sure that true protest groups are starved of cash and access to the media, and possibly vilified as "extremists" (non-conforming environmental activists are being identified by the state and media more and more as "terrorists"). There is also the possibility of companies not hiring due to online media searches throwing up examples of a person's activism.

Then along comes a foundation that offers an alluring mix of increased leverage and personal stability from really nice, reasonable and empathetic people. Splitting the "extremists" from the "pragmatists" then becomes straight-forward to highly skilled and experienced operators. Its a classic "bad cop/good cop" setup.

Then to add to that we have the undercover police/security services embedded in environmental groups that aids in splitting such groups (I don't think that the Guardian story below is a "one-off").

Any form of degrowth and/or having the wealthier bear the costs of climate change directly threatens the wealth and position of the elites, and they will work very hard to stop that happening. Either through co-option or outright subjugation, as with Occupy.

https://grist.org/article/the-term-eco-terrorist-is-back-and-its-killing-climate-activists/

https://www.theguardian.com/uk/2011/jan/09/undercover-office-green-activists



Shared Humanity

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Re: Extinction Rebellion
« Reply #152 on: May 10, 2019, 08:18:17 PM »
On what I've been reading about the protests, and what I know of general human nature.
A lot of the XR members doubtlessly do know how hard those three demands are, but al lot don't realize it, especially the younger ones.

It simply does not matter how hard these demands are! Either we meet them or we're toast!

(Toast being another term for extinct.)
« Last Edit: May 10, 2019, 10:34:03 PM by Shared Humanity »

magnamentis

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Re: Extinction Rebellion
« Reply #153 on: May 10, 2019, 08:32:41 PM »
On what I've been reading about the protests, and what I know of general human nature.
A lot of the XR members doubtlessly do know how hard those three demands are, but al lot don't realize it, especially the younger ones.

It simply does not matter how hard these demands are! Either we meet them or we're toast!

Toast being another term for extinct.)

while it's clear what you want to convey, none of the direct effects of climate change cause by humans has the potential for extinction if we apple the common understanding for extinction = zero humans left at all.

this if fact does not make the oulook much better of course but still i suggest to avoid any kind of extreme terms that can easily be countered by the "blind" and/or the "after me the deluge" fraction of fellow inhabitants of spaceship earth.

using buzzwords will close to 100% sure backfire and not only in this context, this applies to business, politics, science and romantic love and any other topic in the some way.

this is not meant personal but in the interest of the case, pertinent so to say
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wili

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Re: Extinction Rebellion
« Reply #154 on: May 10, 2019, 09:59:41 PM »
mag wrote: "...none of the direct effects of climate change cause by humans has the potential for extinction..."

none has even the potential??

I'm not sure how you can say that with confidence. Most studies I have seen show that global civilization is not compatible with teperatures 3 - 4 degrees C above pre-industrial levels.

Once global civilization collapses, most of what we now consider civilization will also collapse. In the mean time, as a neighboring thread points out, more and more place become functionally uninhabitable for humans and for the crops and livestock humans depend on.

So pretty soon you are down to a few pockets of humanity struggling to make it in this new, extremely harsh...and every harsher, in ever less predictable ways...environment.

But you are 100% sure that there is 0 chance that humans will survive this and probably much worse? Seems kind of ... subjective?? wishful??? I'm looking for the right word...
"A force de chercher de bonnes raisons, on en trouve; on les dit; et après on y tient, non pas tant parce qu'elles sont bonnes que pour ne pas se démentir." Choderlos de Laclos "You struggle to come up with some valid reasons, then cling to them, not because they're good, but just to not back down."

Shared Humanity

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Re: Extinction Rebellion
« Reply #155 on: May 10, 2019, 10:53:40 PM »
On what I've been reading about the protests, and what I know of general human nature.
A lot of the XR members doubtlessly do know how hard those three demands are, but al lot don't realize it, especially the younger ones.

It simply does not matter how hard these demands are! Either we meet them or we're toast!

Toast being another term for extinct.)

while it's clear what you want to convey, none of the direct effects of climate change cause by humans has the potential for extinction if we apple the common understanding for extinction = zero humans left at all.

Glad you understand my point which is to dismiss everyone here who feels compelled to repeat ad nauseum how hard it is for us to do what is absolutely necessary to avoid the collapse of civilization as we know it. And for those here who choose to find fault with ER participants who are making these demands, you might want to consider that they are the only ones speaking the unvarnished truth.

With regards to extinction, perhaps this is hyperbole, perhaps not, but I do take exception with your comment that there is nothing humans can do that would result in our extinction. The 1st dramatic calls to reduce and eventually eliminate CO2 emissions were made in 1980. Since then, we have done nothing. For four decades, BAU has been the order of the day right up to the present. I see no evidence that we are making decisions to alter this self destructive behavior. If we were to continue BAU through this century, human extinction is not out of the question.


Tom_Mazanec

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Re: Extinction Rebellion
« Reply #156 on: May 11, 2019, 02:04:06 PM »
TM wrote: "...al lot don't realize it..."

Just admit that you have no freakin idea what you're talking about. All you have are your prejudices about the left and about the young that you are eager to project out there into the world. But it just reveals you as an old hollow fool. (As are we all, by the way.)

That's why I said I "suspect" instead of just stating it as a fact. And my prejudices about the young come from my memories of what I was when I was young.
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magnamentis

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Re: Extinction Rebellion
« Reply #157 on: May 11, 2019, 05:59:23 PM »
On what I've been reading about the protests, and what I know of general human nature.
A lot of the XR members doubtlessly do know how hard those three demands are, but al lot don't realize it, especially the younger ones.

It simply does not matter how hard these demands are! Either we meet them or we're toast!

Toast being another term for extinct.)

while it's clear what you want to convey, none of the direct effects of climate change cause by humans has the potential for extinction if we apple the common understanding for extinction = zero humans left at all.

Glad you understand my point which is to dismiss everyone here who feels compelled to repeat ad nauseum how hard it is for us to do what is absolutely necessary to avoid the collapse of civilization as we know it. And for those here who choose to find fault with ER participants who are making these demands, you might want to consider that they are the only ones speaking the unvarnished truth.

With regards to extinction, perhaps this is hyperbole, perhaps not, but I do take exception with your comment that there is nothing humans can do that would result in our extinction. The 1st dramatic calls to reduce and eventually eliminate CO2 emissions were made in 1980. Since then, we have done nothing. For four decades, BAU has been the order of the day right up to the present. I see no evidence that we are making decisions to alter this self destructive behavior. If we were to continue BAU through this century, human extinction is not out of the question.

i'm fine with your reply, just want to make sure that a few things i wrote were not misunderstood:

- yes we CAN do things that result in our extinction

- i said "not directly" means yes, indirect consequences of GW can lead to extinction, i.e wars on
. an extra large scale with all that's in the arsenals (don't wanna go into details to avoid buzz and
. further sliding off topic=

- we can reduce effects by doing our best (the right things) that would reduce risk for most of the
. above mentioned indirect consequences, hence there is no reason to relax and let go, but there
. are plenty of reasons to reduce the causes for GW.

hop it clarifies some ;)
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vox_mundi

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Re: Extinction Rebellion
« Reply #158 on: May 14, 2019, 01:54:55 PM »

“There are three classes of people: those who see. Those who see when they are shown. Those who do not see.” ― Leonardo da Vinci

Insensible before the wave so soon released by callous fate. Affected most, they understand the least, and understanding, when it comes, invariably arrives too late

gerontocrat

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Re: Extinction Rebellion
« Reply #159 on: May 14, 2019, 04:37:44 PM »
THE EMPIRE FIGHTS BACK....

Germany has AfD, UK has Nigel Farage's mob. They have money and a chance at power. I quote from the article perhaps the most important message...

With troll armies, agitating magazines and the support of climate sceptics like EIKE, it has created its own sphere that is massively underestimated.

https://www.theguardian.com/environment/2019/may/14/germanys-afd-attacks-greta-thunberg-as-it-embraces-climate-denial
Germany’s AfD attacks Greta Thunberg as it embraces climate denial
Rightwing populists to launch attack on climate science in vote drive before EU elections

Germany’s rightwing populists are embracing climate change denial as the latest topic with which to boost their electoral support, teaming up with scientists who claim hysteria is driving the global warming debate and ridiculing the Swedish climate activist Greta Thunberg as “mentally challenged” and a fraud.

The Alternative für Deutschland party (AfD) is expected to launch its biggest attack yet on mainstream climate science at a symposium in parliament on Tuesday supported by a prominent climate change denial body linked by researchers to prominent conservative groups in the US.....

......The party’s symposium at the Bundestag is backed by the European Institute of Climate and Energy (EIKE), a group that rejects mainstream scientific consensus that climate change is man-made and has links to prominent conservative groups in the US. EIKE’s annual climate conference is co-sponsored by the Heartland Institute, a fossil fuel industry-funded US thinktank that has a history of funding projects aimed at weakening public confidence in climate science, the investigation found. EIKE’s president, Holger Thuss, co-founded the European branch of another US climate change denial pressure group, Committee for a Constructive Tomorrow (CFACT). CFACT Europe received financial support from its US counterpart, according to documents seen by the Guardian.

Karsten Smid, a climate campaigner for Greenpeace Germany, told the Guardian: “The AfD is using the Bundestag as a stage for its dissemination of climate lies. They invite fake experts to a so-called symposium on climate change to generate content for mass dissemination via social media channels and stir up hatred and anger on the internet.

“We are experiencing a shift to the right on social media and in society. In a short period of time, the new right has established its own counter-society on climate issues. With troll armies, agitating magazines and the support of climate sceptics like EIKE, it has created its own sphere that is massively underestimated.”
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Reallybigbunny

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Re: Extinction Rebellion
« Reply #160 on: May 14, 2019, 06:24:04 PM »
Declare a climate emergency!
We may have the numbers in Nelson Council in New Zealand to declare a climate emergency on 16th May. This is very exciting! The framework is about positive opportunities this will provide for our community.

Lurk

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Re: Extinction Rebellion
« Reply #161 on: May 16, 2019, 09:10:41 AM »
Quite often the most obvious truth and/or fact of life escapes people in the noise of daily life.

Many see the following as being the best most likely solutions to promote and therefore possibly avoid the climate crisis that is just around the corner: The IPCC, Science, Scientists, Academia, new Technology, Renewable energy use, Electrification of road transport, Tax Reform, this Party or that Party, the UNFCCC process, the United Nation's bodies, NGOs, tackling "fake news and denialism" in the Media, maybe Extinction Rebellion, or perhaps a million Greta Thunbergs.

All may have their place, their unique advantages and an important role to play. There is however only one elephant in the room, one thing that has any hope of gluing together all aspects for long term solutions to climate change, nationally and globally. And that's Politics - ignore it, minimise it, abandon it, avoid it, and deny it at your and the future's peril.

Engaging in Politics no matter where you live is essential. But if you're an American then it is of critical importance - because that's where the most powerful power in the world - for good or ill - lays today.

Quote
Definition of politics
1a : the art or science of government
b : the art or science concerned with guiding or influencing governmental policy
c : the art or science concerned with winning and holding control over a government
2 : political actions, practices, or policies
https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/politics

Quote
Wikipedia Politics
Politics refers to a set of activities associated with the governance of a country, or an area. It involves making decisions that apply to members of a group.

A variety of methods are deployed in politics, which include promoting one's own political views among people, negotiation with other political subjects, making laws, and exercising force, including warfare against adversaries.

Politics is exercised on a wide range of social levels, from clans and tribes of traditional societies, through modern local governments, companies and institutions up to sovereign states, to the international level.

A political system is a framework which defines acceptable political methods within a given society. The history of political thought can be traced back to early antiquity, with seminal works such as Plato's Republic, Aristotle's Politics and the works of Confucius.

Etymology
The word comes from the same Greek word from which the title of Aristotle's book Politics (from Ancient Greek: Πολιτικά, romanized: Politiká or Polis, meaning "affairs of the cities"). The book title was rendered in Early Modern English in the mid-15th century as "Polettiques"; it became "politics" in Modern English.

The singular politic first attested in English 1430 and comes from Middle French politique, in turn from Latin politicus, which is the Latinization of the Greek πολιτικός (politikos), meaning amongst others "of, for, or relating to citizens", "civil", "civic", "belonging to the state", in turn from πολίτης (polites), "citizen" and that from πόλις (polis), "city".
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Politics
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vox_mundi

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“There are three classes of people: those who see. Those who see when they are shown. Those who do not see.” ― Leonardo da Vinci

Insensible before the wave so soon released by callous fate. Affected most, they understand the least, and understanding, when it comes, invariably arrives too late

Lurk

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Re: Extinction Rebellion
« Reply #163 on: May 17, 2019, 05:05:28 AM »
Greta says and does:

“It’s quite hilarious when the only thing people can do is mock you, or talk about your appearance or personality, as it means they have no argument, or nothing else to say. I’m not going to let that stop me because I know this is so much more important.”

A very common situation, which comes with an uncommon response. ;)
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Rich

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Re: Extinction Rebellion
« Reply #164 on: May 17, 2019, 06:00:29 AM »
The historical equivalent to where we find ourselves today is the Warsaw Ghetto.

Like the Nazi's...climate change and ecological crisis has us outnumbered. Most of us are going to die at this point. We can go out with a whimper or we can die fighting. I'm with Greta.

Let's face it. We've got 1/2 century of further warming locked in and some geoengineering Hail Mary's in which we indulge our hubris to believe that we can beat nature.


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Re: Extinction Rebellion
« Reply #165 on: May 17, 2019, 06:38:51 AM »
oops  ::)  someone edit out the sneakers.

Lurk

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Re: Extinction Rebellion
« Reply #166 on: May 17, 2019, 07:10:19 AM »
oops  ::)  someone edit out the sneakers.

But why do that?
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Neven

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Re: Extinction Rebellion
« Reply #167 on: May 17, 2019, 09:05:54 AM »
oops  ::)  someone edit out the sneakers.

But why do that?

Because look at those sneakers! They prove AGW is a hoax!  ;D
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etienne

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Re: Extinction Rebellion
« Reply #168 on: May 17, 2019, 03:32:50 PM »
Luxembourgish parlament refused to declare Climate Emergency, 31 no, 25 absention and 4 yes. I guess that the 31 that refused didn't want a motion that was just a statement and would have hoped for something more efficient.

Shared Humanity

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Re: Extinction Rebellion
« Reply #169 on: May 17, 2019, 04:33:59 PM »
oops  ::)  someone edit out the sneakers.

But why do that?

Because look at those sneakers! They prove AGW is a hoax!  ;D

No one with such footwear should be taken seriously.  ::)

Reallybigbunny

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Re: Extinction Rebellion
« Reply #170 on: May 17, 2019, 04:45:43 PM »
Nelson council in New Zealand declared a climate emergency yesterday (May 16th 2019). I believe Really Big Bunny (James Moran) played a role in this dramatic moment occurring!
https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?fbid=2565977883629054&set=a.1411540429072811&type=3&eid=ARCcPhxAJ2VFWYXudp_1JNT3rWZhjU-lAFNzR4ht8X6vO48yiytM1Owxxz09LvnbNg9SxItgcSL6h0o-

Tim

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Re: Extinction Rebellion
« Reply #171 on: May 17, 2019, 08:08:42 PM »
That Time magazine cover conveys quite interesting symbolism. Everything from the living biosphere expunged from it, not a living thing represented in it except for a human wearing a bourgeois dress that represents the champagne crowd more than it does any sort of criticism against said crowd. Roman columns representative of colonial architecture, shoes sticking out made by a multinational consumer corporation. Everything about it says BAU, nothing about it says environmentalism. Cement and a human, all thoughts of a biosphere expunged from the viewers subconscious thought. Interesting marketing psychology going on here for sure.

Neven posted an excellent video awhile back on the forum pointing out the subversive and often invisible workings behind corporate growth capitalism called "The Corporation." Lurk, who prides himself on being ahead of the curve on all things, posts often exposing the invisible mechanisms behind the Corporate growth capitalism goings on in Venezuela. These are excellent exposes of how capitalism is the real driver behind biosphere destruction, as well as being ecxellent exposes on the very subliminal methods capitalist elites have developed in order to further their ideological grip over the planet and it's biosphere, that only just continue to grind into dust.

They would be interested to learn about how, at an official XR organizers 'leaders training' seminar, they draw three bubbles on a white board and identify three groups of people. In the middle circle, which they identify as being "the bad people" and label them as the ones who need to be ridiculed and mocked out of participation in XR, lies one of it's not so overtly stated core missions ... that being to expunge and eliminate these types of thinkers (like Neven and Lurk) out of the climate movement. In that circle, they place people like Lurk and Neven, anyone who seeks to question, or even bring up criticisms, of the capitalist capture of our world, or to criticize growth capitalism or the corporations at the center of that system at all, or any of the effects this system has on the biosphere whatsoever. That is bad stuff to talk about, apparently. Trouble makers calling for true system reform are bad people, that's one of XR's core messages coming from the top down. Don't ask to change the system, at all.

People here need to catch up with Cory Morningstar's excellent non-mainstream investigative exposure over the past month about who's really behind this movement, and who stage managed Gretta's meteoric rise to international fame and corporate welcomed acclaim, and see what their goals really are, lest they be unwittingly supporting something brand new being rolled out by the capitalists as their new effort to try and capture and co-opt the climate message and turn it into a new growth vehicle for the Davos investors, which is just more of the destructive biosphere crushing capitalism bulldozer that Neven and Lurk work so hard to try and educate people here against.

This is big stuff going on here people, don't miss the boat. There's a reason why XR is not being met with tear gas and batons, and a reason why Gretta was ushered into the Davos convention instead of being tear gassed and hit with batons, and there's a reason it's all being covered by the mainstream media on an international scale, immediately, like promotion and advertising, instead of being teargassed and hit with batons, complete with Time magazine covers denuded of anything environmental in it's symbolism at all.

Get with the program ASIF and figure this out already. You're being co-opted here. Thanks Cory Morningstar for exposing this sham for what it is over the past month, which a push for a capitalist fourth industrial revolution and a reinvigoration of the deadly corporate growth markets that cause all the destruction in the first place, which will just be the final nail in the coffin for an already ravaged biosphere under this new wave of growth capitalism and economic expansion. This is their new advertising rollout you're seeing, by posing as being ... you. Very clever, and also a very old method of messaging capture being employed here too, but not very helpful for those who actually care about the earth (although they are willing to use those who care about the earth in their new advertising campaign.)

I won't post about this again, this was your heads up. Please figure it out, or risk becoming irrelevant on the climate scene. Come on Lurk, actually be ahead of the game, don't just tell us you are. Why haven't you figured this out yet. It's been a whole month.


Neven

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Re: Extinction Rebellion
« Reply #172 on: May 17, 2019, 10:03:03 PM »
I don't know if I should thank you, Tim. I also need straws to cling to. But I'll look into that Cory Morningstar (is that a real name?).
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etienne

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Re: Extinction Rebellion
« Reply #173 on: May 17, 2019, 10:53:29 PM »
I don't feel that Extinction Rebelion or Greta Thunberg aim to make money out of nature. I believe that people saying that are somehow trying to stop something that might be our last hope for some change. It is not without reason that the Luxembourgish Government didn’t vote for the climate emergency even with a green party in the coalition. They know how to make money.

Non violence is a way to act where the police doesn’t know what to do. UK has more experience with that than others. Gandhi was also a British Citizen.

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Re: Extinction Rebellion
« Reply #174 on: May 17, 2019, 11:19:20 PM »
Neven, here's a blog that has written quite a few entries about Cory's work over the past month. Don't just read the first entry, read all the entries organized under this link and you'll get an overview of what's being uncovered. Some of it you can discard as 'meh,' but over all it gives an impression of what's been found out about how this ties into big money and corporate interests, people who are just figuring out a way to stimulate more consumerism culture and growth out of the climate crisis. They saw a revolution coming, a really true revolution, so they have done what they've done a hundred times before and co-opted it to steer the message of all that energy into something that calms the people and hijacks that energy.

Cory Morningstar is a longtime environmental activist who has been teargassed in her past. For years she's written about the infiltration and subversion of NGO's and the methods the establishment uses to do it. One of those is the targeting and ousting of the so called 'radical thinkers' who usually started the movements in the first place. With them gone, the establishment is left with the not very 'thinking' individuals who were just following the previous organizers. Those leftover are then easily steered off track. That's what makes the eliminating of progressive thinkers out of the climate movement such an obvious signal (people like you, those who realize the entire set of premises underlying the whole system has to change, into things like stopping the growth/consumerism mentality for example.) The fact that they are trying to achieve this across an entire public outcry about climate change is pretty telling. Bingo ... busted.

Here's that blog.

http://www.wrongkindofgreen.org/blog/

Other's are talking about this too. It's the talk of the town and probably the biggest new news in climate action yet. This is big stuff, since many, if most most, are likely to fall for it ... especially teenage girls, the biggest consumer market on the planet.

https://winteroak.org.uk/2019/05/02/the-x-agenda-what-does-xr-actually-stand-for/
https://winteroak.org.uk/2019/04/23/rebellion-extinction-a-capitalist-scam-to-hijack-our-resistance/

All these blogs have links to Cory's work, who has been exposing this sort of thing now for years. She was the one who exposed how the 1C warning was co-opted and changed to a 2C warning back in the late 1980's in order to delay action on the climate. That was years ago now that she exposed that. She's no subversive working to derail the climate movement, that's for sure. I heard of her years ago, and she knows her stuff.

I wish you luck in your research. Draw your own conclusions about what you read. To me, it adds up. Ya, how did they manage to drive a yacht into the middle of London and block a street with it? And there's a reason behind them wanting to declare a climate emergency, but it's not really about helping the climate much, it's about stimulating growth in a stalling growth environment through the mass diversion of funds that will come from the mass public all pulling the fire alarm for them. Pretty interesting stuff. Decide for yourself if this is how you want this all to go down.

Thanks for the great work you do here Neven. Sorry to have to break this news here, but people ought to at least know what they're supporting and make an informed choice. Not all capitalists are fossil fuel capitalists, remember. But all capitalists externalize the biosphere and even human citizens of the biosphere and just grab the money. Their system demands that of them by it's very structure, and these are the people behind this recent launch. This isn't the way forward, IMO.

This is the biggest new news in climate action going at the moment, brand new, and ought to be seriously looked into.

Thanks for listening peeps. Keep up the good fight.

And nobody said this was Gretta's idea. Saying that is silly and naive. And Cory Morningstar is hardly someone trying to subvert the climate message. That's a ridiculous assertion if you knew anything about her background and history in environmentalism and the fight against the biosphere gutting establishment. Don't be naive.

Good luck.



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Re: Extinction Rebellion
« Reply #175 on: May 18, 2019, 07:47:24 AM »
What you describe matches very well what te Luxemburgish government does, it is why they are very annoyed that the protests don't stop.

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Re: Extinction Rebellion
« Reply #176 on: May 18, 2019, 07:53:14 AM »
I don't know if I should thank you, Tim. I also need straws to cling to. But I'll look into that Cory Morningstar (is that a real name?).
I've never liked Ingmar Rentzhog (We Don't Have Time). The problem I have with Tim's wording is this;
Quote
who stage managed Gretta's meteoric rise to international fame and corporate welcomed acclaim
that's the same wording as from our infamous SD leader, Jimme Åkesson. I never wrote what he said but I did post a comment here in April:
https://forum.arctic-sea-ice.net/index.php/topic,2431.msg196847.html#msg196847

And Greta (or her family) never got any money from that foundation, instead she immediately backed out when that was brought to her attention (which was back in early February):
https://forum.arctic-sea-ice.net/index.php/topic,2431.msg197579.html#msg197579

Always been a blue eyed silly, naive fool so what would I know? Could dig a bit further but Don't Have Time for this now, going to run a half marathon today and emit some more CO2.  Healthy for plants and other living things, some say.  :P
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Re: Extinction Rebellion
« Reply #177 on: May 18, 2019, 08:38:24 AM »
I appreciate Tim's posts. It's not surprising that there are profiteers ready to cash in on the "climate crisis." It is not surprising that there are smart capitalists doing what capitalism is so excellent at; lurching from crisis to crisis, reinventing itself each time.

That said, it was just over 10 years ago that James Hansen published a paper warning that 10 years more of continued growth of GHG emissions would make it nearly impossible to avoid catastrophic warming.

Here we are.

Each week new papers are coming out telling us -- explicitly or implicitly -- that 1.5 and 2C limits are pretty much out of reach.

Corey Moringstar, for all of her service -- and I don't know anything about her beyond what's been said here -- seems no closer to mobilizing the sort of movement required to even have a hope of making the required changes.

Greta has managed to increase momentum at a time when critical mass appears to be approaching. Of course we need to be vigilant if the momentum is to be moving in anywhere near the right direction. But now is not a good time for "purity spiraling," which will disintegrate all momentum as fast as the arctic sea ice.

I challenge Corey and others like her to advocate loudly for the exact changes and solutions that they would like to see. Tim, as someone who is familiar with Corey's work, perhaps you could present some of those positive suggestions in the relevant threads on this forum?

I would end by saying that "growth," while fundamental to the logic of capitalism is by no means exclusive to it...

So let's have the alternatives put out there and judge the ideas based on their merit.

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Re: Extinction Rebellion
« Reply #178 on: May 18, 2019, 09:33:42 AM »
 We used to say about fair trade products that if you want to be sure where the money goes, buy corporate. Growth and climat protection is impossible, just check the historical energy data to know where we are coming from. https://sites.fas.harvard.edu/~histecon/energyhistory/energydata_beta.html but I think that we need everybody available so that people could be convinced that something has to happen.

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Re: Extinction Rebellion
« Reply #179 on: May 18, 2019, 11:43:46 AM »
It's quite remarkable that Greta Thunberg is being challenged for being ungenuine and fake by both the populist climate(action)-denying right and the anticapitalist ultra-red/green left. She has hit a nerve somewhere which tells us such a figure has been sorely needed.

In times of great change the catalyst for action is often someone unlikely. Whether it's a Tunisian grocer igniting the Arab spring or Serbian extremist starting a World War it's difficult for the rest of us to believe such things can be spontaneous.

Status quo can either try and destroy a counter movement or it can try and assimilate it. Assimilating is not simply bad because it also means the counter movement has a chance to get their voice heard. Uncompromising ideological purity gets nothing done.

I haven't heard about an anticapitalist system-changing initiative that has even the remotest chance of success. There is almost zero support for such things withing the general public, not to mention the undemocratic tyrants of the developing world. Working within the market-based system by pricing carbon, promoting green new deals etc and implementing strict emission controls might just be able to make emissions peak and thus buy us enough time to find ways to go fully zero-carbon. Unfortunately we are 20-30 years late to do this but maybe, just maybe, there is now enough momentum to create a grassroot pressure to push the climate denying lobbyists out of power.

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Re: Extinction Rebellion
« Reply #180 on: May 18, 2019, 02:38:54 PM »
Rightwing, neoliberal, corporate bought and paid for climate science & climate action denying, Coal bearing Liberal/National Government has been returned in Australia for another 3 years this day.

One bright spot was #1 anti-climate science politician denier in chief ex-PM Tony Abbott lost his seat and is leaving federal politics after 25 years. A new Independent beat him - her major platform? Climate Action (and therefore get rid of Abbott.)

He said at his farewell speech to supporters something very true and telling.

Quote
"When Climate is a Moral issue, we lose. When it's an Economic issue, we win." 

2019-05-18 Tony Abbott   

Mark those words - That is imho the predominant reason why this Minority Federal Govt - who has been on the ropes for over a year at least - won the election and has been returned with a healthy majority.

Those who refuse to accept the truth of the ages that Politics is all about Morals and nothing else, will continue to fail and fail and fail .... that's not me saying it, that the giants of the ages saying it repeatedly.
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Re: Extinction Rebellion
« Reply #181 on: May 18, 2019, 02:51:09 PM »
snipped

I won't post about this again, this was your heads up. Please figure it out, or risk becoming irrelevant on the climate scene. Come on Lurk, actually be ahead of the game, don't just tell us you are. Why haven't you figured this out yet. It's been a whole month.


Hard to tell if you get "the joke" or not (re ahead of the game) but it doesn't really matter.

I will say that was an interesting "engaging" read, as is the one below this one. What it all means, well I do not know, but I will have look into the refs.

That being said could you do one thing for me in the future. Please stop putting me up on a pedestal. I am only going to get knocked off it and then blamed for putting myself there - even when I didn't. Besides Tim, even with my feet on the ground, I am already being thoroughly sliced and diced, bashed and pummelled worse than the Black Knight in the Holy Grail - put up on a pedestal means I am looking at getting a broken neck as well. (so give me a break)

Thank you for your entertaining insightful prose and your support (I think?) nevertheless.
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Re: Extinction Rebellion
« Reply #182 on: May 18, 2019, 03:30:43 PM »
There is a joke that says that in Politics, you have stairs in the middle, and elevators on the extremes . Fortunately, elevators are most of the time out of order.

I am a little bit afraid that the elevators seems to be repaired right now.

Extinction Rebellion is a non violent movement that has democratic roots, so I would put it in the middle. They do a hard job to achieve something.

Of course they get support from rich people, because being poor is not a requirement to fight climate change. Of course the solution requires technologies, I don’t want to go back to middle age. Working more is difficult, but working faster when you have the technology and the energy is very easy. So we have to find a way that makes it possible to keep the technology but to reduce its use to what is required.It’s a hard way because it means producing only what’s needed, but there is no objective definition of the needs, just a more or less objective definition of what is available, so we have to find a fair way to share what is available and say that these are our needs.

The good news is that few people consume much more that the average, and that bringing them to the average would help a lot. The bad news is that revolutions have mostly been about changing who has the power, not about sharing it.

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Re: Extinction Rebellion
« Reply #183 on: May 18, 2019, 07:35:37 PM »
Re Tim's WKOG suggestion, along the way I found this item :
Quote
To meet the demands of the Green New Deal, which proposes to convert the US economy to zero emissions, renewable power by 2030
http://www.wrongkindofgreen.org/2019/05/07/between-the-devil-and-the-green-new-deal/

It's at the beginning and sets the stage for what follows. Unfortunately it's not accurate. The GND  calls for a "Net Zero emissions by 2030" is only related to the electricity generation sector. (as if that'll happen anyway)

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« Last Edit: May 18, 2019, 09:35:18 PM by Lurk »
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Re: Extinction Rebellion
« Reply #184 on: May 18, 2019, 08:12:17 PM »
It's critical that we dispose of the idea that climate change action is against the status quo. Only some of the methods (especially the most effective ones) conflict with the status quo. The wealthy and powerful are fully aware of climate change, and they want to prevent it just as much as you do, but they want to do it on their own terms.

The Extinction Rebellion is proudly non-violent and non-revolutionary (reformist).
ER claims that it gets its inspiration from the Civil Rights movement. Which is slightly ironic because the largest gains of the Civil Rights Movement were made from the militant and revolutionary Black Panthers.

The Black Panthers and their communities were forced to arm themselves to prevent the violence, murdering, lynching, raping of their members. They also educated their members in Marxist ideology and revolutionary action. The Black Panthers created community support systems, from trades worker (plumbing, electricians), to schooling, to meals.  They were incredibly successful at empowering their communities and black people. So successful that their entire leadership was eventually murdered or subverted by the State and State backed white supremacists. .

The Black Panthers were replaced by pacifistic movements that had closer ties to the state, and legislation was passed to calm racial tensions. Was the Civil Rights movement a resounding success that should be emulated? I'm not too sure....






It may have not been a complete success for the black population, but it was a great success for the State and White supremacists. They honed their skill in dismantling revolutionary movements, while continuing to systematically oppress colored citizens. 

---

It's important to understand how effective and experienced hegemonic powers are at using movements to further their interests. Through financing, cooptation, weapons, legal measures, media, diplomacy, assassinations, and torture. Examples of such tactics are seen in the civil rights moment, labour movements, indigenous movements, occupy movement, feminist movements, and the seemingly endless amount of Western backed Coups on foreign soil.

What does this all have to do with Extinction Rebellion? The Extinction Rebellion and Greta Thunberg are not confronting existing power structures. This is great for the powerful, because the threat of climate change catastrophe would absolutely inspire revolutionary action. Allowing ER to thrive will displace any revolutionary movements with the reformism demanded by ER.

Now, if I was an influential businessperson, like the CEO of a large multinational. I would be loving this. Because I know something must be done about climate change. It would be ridiculous to think otherwise. But I can manage the transition so that I could benefit, and even improve my position.

As people get more and more desperate, they are willing to make bigger and bigger concessions.  I could capitalize on that desperation, just like I have done with neoliberal austerity.  Instead of passing bills that nationalize the energy industry, let’s pass legislation that subsidizes my electric vehicle company. Instead of re-distributing the wealth of the rich, lets increase income taxes and cut services to pay for my new wind farm.  Carbon Tax? No, let’s do cap-and-trade, and I can structure it so I profit greatly off the credits

I can solve climate change (in the western nations) while profiting immensely. I just have to make sure that any popular movements support my actions, and Extinction Rebellion is perfect for that. I’ll take my time with it since nobody is really challenging me. In the meantime, I’ll still profit immensely from my fossil fuel focused sectors, but I’ll transition eventually.  This delay may result in millions of dying in the Global South. But no one really cares about the global south, if they did, we would see the same people in the streets protesting the western backed genocide in Yemen.

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Re: Extinction Rebellion
« Reply #185 on: May 18, 2019, 09:16:44 PM »
I think etienne has given a perfect example of the social engineering tactic I was trying to point out. That was actually my main point for posting. In all etienne's posts they've taken a discussion about the de-growth concept, one that tries to introduce discussions about such a thing, and etienne has reworked it into several social shaming strawmans about, no ... these people want violence. These people are violent. She's labeled it as people calling for violence, people being extremists (her elevator joke) ... and violence, violence, violence. "Them types" ... they're calling for violence.

Wow, who said that was what this was about, except you? Don't you see what you just did there?

It's just a false antisocial label you seem intent on trying to attach to anyone who wants to discuss the merits of removing the requirement for growth out of our existing social structures. It's a thinking task, not a punching activity. Nice smear job though etienne. I think you just gave a great demonstration of the social engineering I was pointing out. A perfect one. That's the way it's done, with false labeling and untrue smears.

@zizek. One thing I could add to your post about the civil rights movement was that they had some excellent thinkers who cautioned them against ever, how did someone put it here, "sitting down at the table with them." Because that's how the movement gets compromised and neutralized. The "at least they get a seat at the table with them" is a fallacious strategy and the civil rights movement was aided immensely by not falling for that. They didn't "negotiate" nicer segregated drinking fountains. They held firm and eliminated the practice of blatant segregation altogether. They were cautioned by some excellent thinkers about "getting a seat at the table with them." Just a point I thought I'd add to your discussion that relates to what I was posting about, about subverting social movements.

@Lurk. NET zero emissions is not to be confused with zero emissions. The NET in there just means offsetting all the fossil fuels you continue to burn. It's some pretty crafty double speak to make it sound like lessening fossil fuel use. It's not though, it's about burning all the fossil fuels you want and just offsetting them through various offsetting schemes and as of yet un-invented technologies of scale to suck CO2 out of the sky. Net zero emissions doesn't mean stopping fossil fuel use at all, it's a way to envision continuing it.

The problem with this, is that even if that pipe-dream worked, you'd still be left with consumer economies plundering the earth in all the other ways it does so, beyond just climate change alone. People have sort of become blinded to this unfortunate reality, that if the growth model continues, we still end up in the same place anyway, even if we stopped climate change somehow. De-growth at least tries to address that bigger picture ... it at least acknowledges all of the different ways we are collapsing the biosphere with our current social model based on ever expanding growth.

...

Anyway. I posted some links, I'm not going to stick around to listen to people like etienne do a bunch of strawmanning about violence, which nobody brought up but ettienne. I find that to be dishonest discussion. I posted some links, read them or don't. Make of it what you will. What's the alternative suggestion, someone asked? Obviously, de-growth ... instead of more growth, and ever faster growth, which is the thing XR socially shames people out of even bringing up for discussion. According to etienne, they're apparently now even labeling those people as violent. Sigh. Nice job etienne.

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Re: Extinction Rebellion
« Reply #186 on: May 18, 2019, 09:32:49 PM »
@Lurk. NET zero emissions is not to be confused with zero emissions. The NET in there just means offsetting all the fossil fuels you continue to burn. It's some pretty crafty double speak to make it sound like lessening fossil fuel use. It's not though, it's about burning all the fossil fuels you want and just offsetting them through various offsetting schemes and as of yet un-invented technologies of scale to suck CO2 out of the sky. Net zero emissions doesn't mean stopping fossil fuel use at all, it's a way to envision continuing it.

The problem with this, is that even if that pipe-dream worked, you'd still be left with consumer economies plundering the earth in all the other ways it does so, beyond just climate change alone. People have sort of become blinded to this unfortunate reality, that if the growth model continues, we still end up in the same place anyway, even if we stopped climate change somehow. De-growth at least tries to address that bigger picture ... it at least acknowledges all of the different ways we are collapsing the biosphere with our current social model based on ever expanding growth.

That's all well and good. Nothing new there. The only issue I was raising was that the article was misrepresenting what the GND document actually says. It wasn't so much about the word "Net" per se but the zero emission "only related to the electricity generation sector"

I mean if one is going to criticise something at least get the basic facts right about what they are criticising?  It creates a "credibility" issue, that's all. I wasn't defending anything about the GND .... nor discounting the broad "ideas/ideals" of the article either. ( but hey, it was far too long and repetitive, but whatever, no biggy)
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Re: Extinction Rebellion
« Reply #187 on: May 18, 2019, 09:41:44 PM »
If concentrated wealth was a conscious being, this is what she would sound like:

As people get more and more desperate, they are willing to make bigger and bigger concessions.  I could capitalize on that desperation, just like I have done with neoliberal austerity.  Instead of passing bills that nationalize the energy industry, let’s pass legislation that subsidizes my electric vehicle company. Instead of re-distributing the wealth of the rich, lets increase income taxes and cut services to pay for my new wind farm.  Carbon Tax? No, let’s do cap-and-trade, and I can structure it so I profit greatly off the credits

I can solve climate change (in the western nations) while profiting immensely. I just have to make sure that any popular movements support my actions, and Extinction Rebellion is perfect for that. I’ll take my time with it since nobody is really challenging me. In the meantime, I’ll still profit immensely from my fossil fuel focused sectors, but I’ll transition eventually.  This delay may result in millions of dying in the Global South. But no one really cares about the global south, if they did, we would see the same people in the streets protesting the western backed genocide in Yemen.
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Re: Extinction Rebellion
« Reply #188 on: May 18, 2019, 10:46:40 PM »
It's critical that we dispose of the idea that climate change action is against the status quo.
<snipped>

all good, all a fair reflection of what is, great useful analogies, straight down the line on the money.  and well written too!

and irrespective of the WKOG 'research' I still abide by this about what Greta as an individual  has brought to the party:

Quote
This is not the time for 'Losers' to win out. Greta is a winner and she's ruthless. She is not seen as "nice" nor "better" by those she castigates, calls liars, fools, and cowards. People who like her, who identify with her recognise her ruthlessness and can only wish they had it in themselves to be like that too.

The road to hell is plastered with optimism and littered with the dead bodies of 'nice guys'!

If you're not up for a fight, and it is a fight and fights get dirty, then don't bother turning up at all.
https://forum.arctic-sea-ice.net/index.php/topic,2643.msg199496.html#msg199496

and

Greta says and does, while others look on in amazement:

“It’s quite hilarious when the only thing people can do is mock you, or talk about your appearance or personality, as it means they have no argument, or nothing else to say. I’m not going to let that stop me because I know this is so much more important.”

https://desdemonadespair.net/2019/05/how-teen-climate-activist-greta-thunberg-got-everyone-to-listen-now-i-am-speaking-to-the-whole-world.html
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Re: Extinction Rebellion
« Reply #189 on: May 18, 2019, 11:03:05 PM »
i have not seen etienne accuse degrowth advocates as violent.

sidd

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Re: Extinction Rebellion
« Reply #190 on: May 18, 2019, 11:39:47 PM »
i have not seen etienne accuse degrowth advocates as violent.

sidd
There was I, getting ready to make some Molotov cocktails, and thinks "damn, that means supporting the fossil fuel industry".

It's a tough life being a rebellious environmentalist.
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Re: Extinction Rebellion
« Reply #191 on: May 18, 2019, 11:54:23 PM »
I'm going to go ahead and say that degrowth is an inherently violent ideology, and it is why ecofascists seem so attracted to it.

There is no reason we can't grow our economies while combating climate change.  In fact, it is necessary to do so, especially in the global south where hundreds of millions do not have the infrastructure to protect themselves from the devastating effects of climate change.

We can grow, but it can't be for the sake of profit, but rather for the benefit of mankind. Organizing our resources that is both sustainable and improves the condition of workers through better services, technology, culture, and community shouldn't be so hard to imagine.  But it requires state bureaucracies with interests that serve the people. Cuba being a great example of a state which has implemented a phenomenal climate change plan, but much of its credit is due to a worker controlled state bureaucracy.

The alternative is degrowth - How are countries like Bangladesh and Nigeria, that are now highly dependent on global capitalist economy supposed to degrow? Degrowth makes sense in places like Canada, US, EU, UK where we have the tools to take care of ourselves. What does degrowth look like in a country that are giant sweatshops or open-pit mines that exist to serve the West? Does anybody have an answer to that question? Or do we just let them die? Who here wants to tell the Pakistani people we stopped building air conditioners and they need to find an alternative way to cool themselves off as the wet bulb temperature exceeds 35°C

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Re: Extinction Rebellion
« Reply #192 on: Today at 07:28:43 AM »

There was I, getting ready to make some Molotov cocktails, and thinks "damn, that means supporting the fossil fuel industry".

It's a tough life being a rebellious environmentalist.
LOL this is why I believe that you can't be against growth and violent.

This debate is not new on the forum, just more aggressive. We always discussed green BAU with Bob Wallace. I'm sure he does a good job in fighting climate change even if I don't agree with all what he said.
Fighting climate change is very complicated because some non popular decisions have to be made, but we need democracy because leaders need to be controlled.

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Re: Extinction Rebellion
« Reply #193 on: Today at 07:34:03 AM »
Extinction rebelion is not about changing the political system, but about taking better decisions, making pressure without violence, so there is nothing I can say against them. In politics, the aim is the path. Everybody wants a better world, what you vote for is how to get there.

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Re: Extinction Rebellion
« Reply #194 on: Today at 09:41:12 AM »
Everybody wants a better world, what you vote for is how to get there .... and don't.
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Re: Extinction Rebellion
« Reply #195 on: Today at 12:54:20 PM »
fwiw given recent comments

New coalition of big-company CEOs pushes Congress for climate action
May 15, 2019 6:19 PM ET|About: BASF SE (BASFY)|By: Carl Surran, SA News Editor

A new initiative featuring more than a dozen major corporations and environmental groups is launching a new effort to urge Congress to pass legislation addressing climate change.

The CEO Climate Dialogue includes CEOs from oil giants BP and Royal Dutch Shell (NYSE:RDS.A) as well as from companies across the economy including Citigroup (NYSE:C), Dominion Energy (NYSE:D) and Ford (NYSE:F).

Also involved: BASF (OTCQX:BASFY), Dow Inc. (NYSE:DOW), DTE Energy (NYSE:DTE), DowDuPont (NYSE:DWDP), Exelon (NYSE:EXC), LafargeHolcim (OTCPK:HCMLF), PG&E (NYSE:PCG), Unilever (NYSE:UN).

The formation of the group could be another sign that the political window for D.C. to seriously consider comprehensive climate legislation is opening.
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