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Re: Extinction Rebellion
« Reply #200 on: May 20, 2019, 05:39:31 AM »
Politics, economics and culture all need energy, plastics, transportation, healthcare, education and food. All those things in turn have the potential for CO2 emissions.

That is a wicked problem because it can't be solved with political campaigns, economic policy or cultural shifts alone. The problem must be solved by using science and engineering before politics, economics and culture changes can implement the solution.
I am an energy reservoir seemingly intent on lowering entropy for self preservation.

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Re: Extinction Rebellion
« Reply #201 on: May 20, 2019, 05:52:41 AM »
I don't think most people from civilization even realize that they are just one culture.

Some peoples have understood for centuries that a society built on extraction and accumulation would burn the whole planet alive. Western science has a lot of nerve showing up just as we’re on the precipice of a biospheric death spiral to brandish some graphs and offer to block out the sun just a little.

“Indigenous knowledge systems are rigorous, they pursue excellence, they are critical and comprehensive,” Simpson says. “The global roots of the climatic crisis and the exploitation of natural resources are issues indigenous peoples have been speaking out against for hundreds of years.” The proof is in the pudding: Colonists were warned by word and weapon that a system of individual land ownership would lead to ecological apocalypse, and here we are. What more could you ask from a system of truth and analysis than to alert you to a phenomenon like climate change before it occurs, with enough time to prevent it? That is significantly more than colonial science has offered.

The devaluation of indigenous political thought has nothing to do with its predictive ability. The ruling class produced by accumulation society simply will not put its own system up for debate. (this discussion of culture is what that XR banishes from its ranks by policy, because it's a corporate movement, a march for more culture as usual) Thus the climate change policies we discuss—even and perhaps in particular the Green New Deal—take for granted not just the persistence of commodity accumulation, but its continued growth.

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Re: Extinction Rebellion
« Reply #202 on: May 20, 2019, 07:19:49 AM »
I don't think most people from civilization even realize that they are just one culture.

Some peoples have understood for centuries that a society built on extraction and accumulation would burn the whole planet alive. Western science has a lot of nerve showing up just as we’re on the precipice of a biospheric death spiral to brandish some graphs and offer to block out the sun just a little.

“Indigenous knowledge systems are rigorous, they pursue excellence, they are critical and comprehensive,” Simpson says. “The global roots of the climatic crisis and the exploitation of natural resources are issues indigenous peoples have been speaking out against for hundreds of years.” The proof is in the pudding: Colonists were warned by word and weapon that a system of individual land ownership would lead to ecological apocalypse, and here we are. What more could you ask from a system of truth and analysis than to alert you to a phenomenon like climate change before it occurs, with enough time to prevent it? That is significantly more than colonial science has offered.

The devaluation of indigenous political thought has nothing to do with its predictive ability. The ruling class produced by accumulation society simply will not put its own system up for debate. (this discussion of culture is what that XR banishes from its ranks by policy, because it's a corporate movement, a march for more culture as usual) Thus the climate change policies we discuss—even and perhaps in particular the Green New Deal—take for granted not just the persistence of commodity accumulation, but its continued growth.


There you have it, an explanation for the seemingly grossly irrational non action on climate change by humanity in the face of overwhelming scientific evidence and the precautionary principle in Environmental Law.

There is a principle which is a bar against all information, which cannot fail to keep a man in everlasting ignorance. That principle is contempt prior to investigation. - Herbert Spencer

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Re: Extinction Rebellion
« Reply #203 on: May 20, 2019, 07:20:09 AM »
The modern day Technological system all needs energy, plastics, transportation, healthcare, education and food. All those things in turn have the potential for CO2 emissions.

That is a wicked problem because it can ONLY be solved with political campaigns, economic policy or cultural shifts. The problem must be solved by using Politics, economics and social culture to drive rational actions using the tools of science, engineering and technology.

There, fixed your typos and thinking all at the same time. ;D

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Re: Extinction Rebellion
« Reply #204 on: May 21, 2019, 10:17:48 AM »
After decades of observing ignorance I found out the final exit of ignorance will be sheer madness, deliriousness and paranoia, the zombie apocalypse. The denier weirdos are getting ever more and more cynical, hateful and delirious, mostly right-wing fascists living in the past. Their are waiting for they chance, when despair and chaos sets in…

Can you imagine *millions and billions* of children on the globe slowly realizing, like Greta Thunberg, what has been left for their future, the legacy of endless stupidity and ignorance? This is what I imagine as real Hell, a weeping choir of children echoing the final outcome of endless pass the parcel games on our way to damnation.

Systems are failing, systems are failing, systems are failing…. it’s a short story in our world:


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Re: Extinction Rebellion
« Reply #205 on: May 21, 2019, 11:32:07 PM »
The modern day Technological system all needs energy, plastics, transportation, healthcare, education and food. All those things in turn have the potential for CO2 emissions.

That is a wicked problem because it can ONLY be solved with political campaigns, economic policy or cultural shifts. The problem must be solved by using Politics, economics and social culture to drive rational actions using the tools of science, engineering and technology.

There, fixed your typos and thinking all at the same time. ;D

I agree that the use of technology is a political decision, and therefore changes to it require political changes. My concerns are the following:

- The sheer scale of energy use of the top 10% (i.e. all of us in the "western" nations), and the current atmospheric level of GHGs, is so high that required reductions in GHG emissions will require substantial and absolute reductions in energy use that will reduce social welfare (hopefully weighted toward the richest, which is opposite to what the richest would prefer). This is not touched on by ER.

   - Kevin Anderson is one of the few who is ready to voice this reality

- Such a rapid reduction would cause a financial and economic crash, which could only be contained through a "war-like" economic planning setup that distributed losses in a way that did not destitute a significant part of the population.

- Asking the poor of the world (e.g. India) to substantially reduce their emissions - i.e. stay poor - is a losing proposition short of military enforcement.

If this was 1990 things would be a lot easier, but we are now three decades of increasing emissions later and with 1.3 billion Indians wanting to join the middle income level, and 1.4 billion Chinese wanting to be at least as rich as Italy.

The other possibility is of course vast (and in the end most probably failed) attempts at geo-engineering so that the above realities do not have to be dealt with. That would be the result of technology use with no real political changes, with the Greta's of the world used as a marketing ploy (not intentionally by them) to facilitate a rapid move to geo-engineering without significant GHG emission cuts, through the construction of an international emergency. Just like the highly photogenic Kuwaiti ambassador's daughter lying about Iraqi soldiers emptying babies from incubators to produce support for the first Iraqi war.

"Letting the days go by ... same as it ever was" Talking Heads. We need a revolution not an easily co-opted rebellion.



« Last Edit: May 21, 2019, 11:48:16 PM by rboyd »

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Re: Extinction Rebellion
« Reply #206 on: May 22, 2019, 06:34:30 AM »
This is an enourmous task. Seems like ASI(Lurk)er has left and Neven had some work in the other threads since my last visit but there's nothing wrong with your comments.

A recent interview with Kevin in three videos with a timeline at the link:
https://manchesterclimatemonthly.net/2019/05/14/interview-with-professor-kevin-anderson-on-the-ipcc-extinctionr-greta-thunberg-hope-and-much-else/

A few lazy crossposts.
I'm advocating massive cuts in energy use, so that renewables can cover all demand.
That's what's needed but also what no-one want's, crosspost from the Part Deux thread:
It would be better if we started thinking in terms of energy, instead of just whining about fossil fuels. Like these bullet points by Nate Hagens.



As some has noted earlier in this thread, RCP2.6 is no longer attainable.
https://news.agu.org/press-release/new-studies-highlight-challenge-of-meeting-paris-agreement-climate-goals/
A short quote and snipping out the top image from the second study with Peters.
Quote
Stone, with the National Institute of Water and Atmospheric Research, said Peters’ study shows no one country can slip up in the goal to meet climate goals.

“It is hard to argue against their conclusion that we need to start seriously considering options such as the deployment of solar geoengineering, with all of the risks that entails, if the world is serious about achieving the Paris Agreement goals,” he said.



Glen Peters wrote a mini thread yesteday on this:
https://twitter.com/Peters_Glen/status/1126030557593382912

https://twitter.com/neilrkaye/status/1129467029495398400
2018 emissions are equal to 1751 to 1895 total emissions.
Image added below.

Or why not Eric Holthaus comment (that spurred the above):
270 → 280 ppm: ~5000 yrs
280 → 290: ~100
290 → 300: ~40
300 → 310: ~30
310 → 320: ~23
320 → 330: 12
330 → 340: 8
340 → 350: 6
350 → 360: 7
360 → 370: 6
370 → 380: 5
380 → 390: 5
390 → 400: 5
400 → 410: 4
410 → 415.7: 2

We are in a climate emergency.




Buying an EV is simply no where near enough.
« Last Edit: May 22, 2019, 07:20:21 AM by Sleepy »
Omnia mirari, etiam tritissima.
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Science is a jealous mistress and takes little account of a man's feelings.

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Re: Extinction Rebellion
« Reply #207 on: May 22, 2019, 08:47:44 AM »
If you are going to rebel against extinction, you have to rebel against the system that produces that existential threat - the whole box and dice - culture and economy.

We understand the notion of Gaia, that the Biosphere is a mind blowingly intricate interconnected living thing.

Homo Sapiens are a natural part of Gaia but besides the survive, thrive and multiply ethic shared with other inhabitants of Gaia, HS developed the intelligence to exploit the environment and caused a disequilibrium to the Holocene.

By the 1980s it was well established what trend we are on and that is more than confirmed in recent times.

So what happened to that intelligence and rationality, that didn't stop us from reaching the point of no return ?

My hypothesis is that just like Gaia is living thing,so is Industrial Civilisation.

Let's call it Baia.

Like a giant macrophage, Baia is consuming Gaia and nothing can stop it.

We are components of Baia but have no control - it's too big with forward rolling momentum.

The elite may be able to steer and manipulate Baia but cannot stop it.
There is a principle which is a bar against all information, which cannot fail to keep a man in everlasting ignorance. That principle is contempt prior to investigation. - Herbert Spencer

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Re: Extinction Rebellion
« Reply #208 on: May 22, 2019, 10:50:45 AM »
If you are going to rebel against extinction, you have to rebel against the system that produces that existential threat - the whole box and dice - culture and economy.

We understand the notion of Gaia, that the Biosphere is a mind blowingly intricate interconnected living thing.

Homo Sapiens are a natural part of Gaia but besides the survive, thrive and multiply ethic shared with other inhabitants of Gaia, HS developed the intelligence to exploit the environment and caused a disequilibrium to the Holocene.

By the 1980s it was well established what trend we are on and that is more than confirmed in recent times.

So what happened to that intelligence and rationality, that didn't stop us from reaching the point of no return ?

My hypothesis is that just like Gaia is living thing,so is Industrial Civilisation.

Let's call it Baia.

Like a giant macrophage, Baia is consuming Gaia and nothing can stop it.

We are components of Baia but have no control - it's too big with forward rolling momentum.

The elite may be able to steer and manipulate Baia but cannot stop it.

Well written. Spooky yet beautiful.

Gaia bats last. She doesn't need homo sapiens.

Tom_Mazanec

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Re: Extinction Rebellion
« Reply #209 on: May 22, 2019, 04:21:47 PM »
BTW, remember that anything we say about XR that is not a truism applies to only a portion of the membership.
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Re: Extinction Rebellion
« Reply #210 on: May 22, 2019, 09:07:39 PM »
Did you ever heard the concept of soft goulag? It has been defined by Sarclo, a Swiss singer anf it defines a prison that you don't feel. "Mics macs idéologiques du goulag mou" to be looked for on youtube.
An example is when cool activities are organised more or less during youth for climate activities.
https://www.bee-secure.lu/de/events/bee-secure-teenage-dream-party-2019-05-24-160000-bis-2019-05-24-210000
And http://youthforclimate.lu/
Well, maybe it was not on purpose.

be cause

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Re: Extinction Rebellion
« Reply #211 on: May 22, 2019, 09:42:25 PM »
we shall see if attitudes change this summer by what happens at festivals . Last year the abandoned tents in the UK alone came to @ 900 tons of plastic . Will we pass the 1000 mark .. or will people actually care ?  b.c.
2007 + 5 = 2012 + 4 = 2016 + 3 = 2019 ...

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Re: Extinction Rebellion
« Reply #212 on: May 24, 2019, 07:34:02 PM »
One picture from Luxembourg. It was organized in cooperation with the Police, and when I wanted to leave to go home, I had to stay because there was no safe way out.

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« Last Edit: June 01, 2019, 03:02:32 PM by Tom_Mazanec »
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Re: Extinction Rebellion
« Reply #214 on: June 02, 2019, 11:05:49 AM »
From The Independent.
We will not let you get away with it.
(Encoded for size...)
Omnia mirari, etiam tritissima.
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be cause

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Re: Extinction Rebellion
« Reply #215 on: June 02, 2019, 11:36:06 AM »
.. and I find I'm under attack on facebook for believing what all those lying scientists are making up about global warming . Apparently bbr has got to them :) .. it seems the next ice age is already under way .. b.c.
« Last Edit: June 02, 2019, 06:21:32 PM by be cause »
2007 + 5 = 2012 + 4 = 2016 + 3 = 2019 ...

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Re: Extinction Rebellion
« Reply #216 on: June 02, 2019, 04:51:49 PM »
From The Independent.
We will not let you get away with it.
(Encoded for size...)

But as many have pointed out here, the youth simply don't understand how difficult it is to address the problem. She needs to go back to playing video games and leave this to us adults.

Or maybe she should act as if her life depended on it because it does.
« Last Edit: June 02, 2019, 05:24:33 PM by Shared Humanity »

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Re: Extinction Rebellion
« Reply #217 on: June 04, 2019, 11:14:45 AM »
Swedes Switch to Trains Due to Global Warming   
https://dw.com/en/swedes-switch-to-trains-due-to-global-warming/a-49033136

Swedes seem to be following climate activist Greta Thunberg's example in shunning air travel. The percentage that opted to take a train rather than fly has doubled in a year and a half. Flight shame may be at work.

One flight between Sweden's two biggest cities, Stockholm and Gothenburg, generates as much carbon dioxide, the gas that contributes the most to global warming, as 40,000 train journeys, according to SJ, the country's biggest train operator. Awareness of air travel's impact on the planet has made 16-year-old Greta Thunberg eschew planes as she travels the world to make the case for saving the planet from environmental disaster.

... The concept of "flygskam" — feeling shame about flying — gained currency last year and was dubbed one of the most-used new words by Swedish language experts. It drew copious media attention along with the social media campaign #jastannarpamarken, translated into English as #stayontheground.
“There are three classes of people: those who see. Those who see when they are shown. Those who do not see.” ― Leonardo da Vinci

Insensible before the wave so soon released by callous fate. Affected most, they understand the least, and understanding, when it comes, invariably arrives too late

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Re: Extinction Rebellion
« Reply #218 on: June 04, 2019, 12:34:58 PM »
Swedes Switch to Trains Due to Global Warming   
https://dw.com/en/swedes-switch-to-trains-due-to-global-warming/a-49033136

Swedes seem to be following climate activist Greta Thunberg's example in shunning air travel. The percentage that opted to take a train rather than fly has doubled in a year and a half. Flight shame may be at work.

One flight between Sweden's two biggest cities, Stockholm and Gothenburg, generates as much carbon dioxide, the gas that contributes the most to global warming, as 40,000 train journeys, according to SJ, the country's biggest train operator. Awareness of air travel's impact on the planet has made 16-year-old Greta Thunberg eschew planes as she travels the world to make the case for saving the planet from environmental disaster.

... The concept of "flygskam" — feeling shame about flying — gained currency last year and was dubbed one of the most-used new words by Swedish language experts. It drew copious media attention along with the social media campaign #jastannarpamarken, translated into English as #stayontheground.

This is something we can all do. Refuse recreational air travel.

We don't need China and the US to cut a deal to take personal responsibility for our emissions.

Very impressed with the leadership of Greta in Europe. In America, we don't care enough about our kids to listen to them.


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Re: Extinction Rebellion
« Reply #219 on: June 04, 2019, 02:32:53 PM »
Related to the above.
Hmm, a bit early maybe but if this is a new trend it's good.

A piece by Linus Eriksson, traffic director at Skånetrafiken:
Skåne is entering a new era where the car is no longer the norm. Maybe car shame follows flying shame?
https://www.sydsvenskan.se/2019-05-15/skane-ar-pa-vag-in-i-en-ny-era-dar-bilen-inte-langre-ar-norm-foljer-bilskam-efter-flygskam

In just a few months the travel pattern in Skåne has changed. According to Swedavia, the number of air passengers at Malmö Airport decreased by 11 per cent for the first four months of the year. During the same period, travel by public transport in Skåne increased by 1.8 million trips. The regional bus traffic around Lund and Kristianstad increased by 10 percent, the city traffic in Malmö by just over 7 percent, and the Pågatågen by 4 percent.

I think we are entering a new era. Every day, 420,000 sustainable journeys are made with Skånetrafiken, all of which buses and trains are fossil fuel-free. Regardless of what is claimed in the debate, Skåne has a large range of trains and bus services that reach far above the political level of ambition of ten double trips per weekday for resorts with at least 1 000 inhabitants. In places such as Åhus, Höganäs, Broby, Höllviken, the demand is so great that Skånetrafiken runs a bus between every 5-10 minutes.
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Re: Extinction Rebellion
« Reply #220 on: June 04, 2019, 05:34:48 PM »
I have maintained all along that the quickest way to dramatically impact CO2 emissions is on the individual consumer level.

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Re: Extinction Rebellion
« Reply #221 on: June 04, 2019, 05:55:58 PM »
I have maintained all along that the quickest way to dramatically impact CO2 emissions is on the individual consumer level.

But how do you get a billion consumers to all voluntarily conserve less?
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Re: Extinction Rebellion
« Reply #222 on: June 04, 2019, 06:02:33 PM »
One person at a time.

Start with yourself. Take a stand with friends and family. Let it go viral.

That's what Greta did. Follow her example.

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Re: Extinction Rebellion
« Reply #223 on: June 04, 2019, 06:10:45 PM »
You can start with yourself and have a clear conscience, and spread it by being a good example. And feel good about yourself without feeling supreme :). Sorry for being a bit off-topic, but, am I off-topic? (in the context of human extinction)

Extinction Rebellion against low morality.

edit: last sentence [06:14 PM]
"It is preoccupation with possessions, more than anything else, that prevents us from living freely and nobly" - Bertrand Russell
   Simple: minimize your possessions and be free and kind    It's just a mindset.       Refugees welcome

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Re: Extinction Rebellion
« Reply #224 on: June 04, 2019, 06:20:45 PM »
I have maintained all along that the quickest way to dramatically impact CO2 emissions is on the individual consumer level.

But how do you get a billion consumers to all voluntarily conserve less?

You don't. You merely get everyone who is concerned about AGW (there are hundreds of millions) to understand how they can do this. And you start with yourself. My car no longer moves on weekends and I have now developed a habit of stopping to do what I need to do on the way home from work. I have virtually eliminated meat in my diet. Eat meat at most twice per week. Still eat eggs and dairy.

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Re: Extinction Rebellion
« Reply #225 on: June 04, 2019, 06:25:42 PM »
One person at a time.

Start with yourself. Take a stand with friends and family. Let it go viral.

That's what Greta did. Follow her example.

Exactly. When I owned a home, I set my heat at 62F in the winter. And we had no air conditioning. Were we hot in the summer occasionally? Yes, but it was summer for God's sake. Was it chilly in the winter? Yes so we dressed accordingly.

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Re: Extinction Rebellion
« Reply #226 on: June 04, 2019, 06:38:24 PM »
@Shared Humanity

In defence of Greta and youth-playing-videogames. I think you are making a big generalisation there and Greta and others (we are talking about other humans!) should rightfully feel insulted. If it was a joke then I didn't see it, sorry.
"It is preoccupation with possessions, more than anything else, that prevents us from living freely and nobly" - Bertrand Russell
   Simple: minimize your possessions and be free and kind    It's just a mindset.       Refugees welcome

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Re: Extinction Rebellion
« Reply #227 on: June 04, 2019, 07:08:22 PM »
@Shared Humanity

In defence of Greta and youth-playing-videogames. I think you are making a big generalisation there and Greta and others (we are talking about other humans!) should rightfully feel insulted. If it was a joke then I didn't see it, sorry.

It was a joke. There are some people up thread who dismissed the "Extinction Rebellion" movement as naive. These people are looking at the problem as clearly as anyone. I am amazed by the bravery in this young woman.

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Re: Extinction Rebellion
« Reply #228 on: June 07, 2019, 04:30:40 AM »
It appears Greta and Co. are planning to shut down Heathrow June 18th with a "drone protest."



This won't be pretty.

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Re: Extinction Rebellion
« Reply #229 on: June 07, 2019, 07:34:44 AM »
That will be beautiful!  8)

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Re: Extinction Rebellion
« Reply #230 on: June 07, 2019, 07:46:54 AM »
Maybe a disaster as well b_l...

I have maintained all along that the quickest way to dramatically impact CO2 emissions is on the individual consumer level.

But how do you get a billion consumers to all voluntarily conserve less?

You don't. You merely get everyone who is concerned about AGW (there are hundreds of millions) to understand how they can do this. And you start with yourself. My car no longer moves on weekends and I have now developed a habit of stopping to do what I need to do on the way home from work. I have virtually eliminated meat in my diet. Eat meat at most twice per week. Still eat eggs and dairy.

Yup, but how to reach these who could mitigate easier and faster than most?
https://www.nature.com/articles/s41558-019-0402-3
Omnia mirari, etiam tritissima.
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Re: Extinction Rebellion
« Reply #231 on: June 07, 2019, 08:05:11 AM »
To be honest, Sleepy, i whish for a disaster.

Airports need to be disturbed on a daily basis. Highways need to be blocked. Factories need to be blacked. The economy must suffer. The civil disobedience must reach unprecedented levels. Worldwide!

You have this one week, the politicians getting weak. You do this two weeks, there are plans on the table. The third week its law.

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Re: Extinction Rebellion
« Reply #232 on: June 07, 2019, 08:19:13 AM »
Yes, but if there were a disaster, then I fear these embryos of progress discussed in this thread will be equally dead.
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Re: Extinction Rebellion
« Reply #233 on: June 07, 2019, 08:52:17 PM »
XR organizers claim that there is a window at Heathrow from 4am to 6am when there is no air traffic.  (Ha!)  "Drone picnickers" will show up during that window and launch.  And/or picnic.  Theoretically, when NO aircraft are airborne or in operation.  Then you have the "Gatwick Drone Experience."

XR organizers and ALL SANE PERSONS recognize that any "plane-drone disaster" will backfire horribly for XR. 

My personal bet is that merely the threat will get significant results and the event will be called off.   Oder?

 

magnamentis

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Re: Extinction Rebellion
« Reply #234 on: June 07, 2019, 09:34:50 PM »
That will be beautiful!  8)

comeon, that's not you ?

to answer evil with evil doing has never lead to anything else than anarchy, guillotines and the likes.

at least this is not the way it works, it could even backfire given the circumstances are right.

magnamentis

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Re: Extinction Rebellion
« Reply #235 on: June 07, 2019, 09:42:46 PM »
To be honest, Sleepy, i whish for a disaster.

Airports need to be disturbed on a daily basis. Highways need to be blocked. Factories need to be blacked. The economy must suffer. The civil disobedience must reach unprecedented levels. Worldwide!

this kind of disasters are the easiest tool for the establishment to use all their force/power to suppress, strike back, limit freedom and make things worse in any way.

the only disaster that would help the cause would be systemic disasters caused and this is very probably going to happen in the near future.

no reason for anyone to expose himself in such a way and certainly not with dangerous means.

There were many "Revoluzzer" in  history and they either died or came to terms by losing focus on their original goals.

preaching violence is not acceptable and not even target leading, never was.

many mentioned successful revolutions but in which cases was the aftermath really better?

mostly things got worse and a few wars were needed to bring reason to society.

Tom_Mazanec

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Re: Extinction Rebellion
« Reply #236 on: June 08, 2019, 06:39:01 PM »
Maybe when Greta's generation takes over things will change.
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Re: Extinction Rebellion
« Reply #237 on: June 08, 2019, 07:32:24 PM »
Yup, but how to reach these who could mitigate easier and faster than most?
https://www.nature.com/articles/s41558-019-0402-3

SAM's?

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Re: Extinction Rebellion
« Reply #238 on: June 08, 2019, 07:38:31 PM »
SH:
Got any figures on a typical American Ten Percenter?
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b_lumenkraft

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Re: Extinction Rebellion
« Reply #239 on: June 08, 2019, 07:40:28 PM »
Tom, Wikipedia has a 'List of countries by carbon dioxide emissions per capita'

Link >> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_carbon_dioxide_emissions_per_capita

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Re: Extinction Rebellion
« Reply #240 on: June 08, 2019, 07:46:50 PM »
Tom, Wikipedia has a 'List of countries by carbon dioxide emissions per capita'

Link >> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_carbon_dioxide_emissions_per_capita

Lowest Burundi: 0.0
Highest Qatar: 45.4
as of 2014.
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Re: Extinction Rebellion
« Reply #241 on: June 13, 2019, 07:27:09 AM »
Here is the XR Heathrow "Pause" plan.  I guess you call it that.  Call for action??  XR claims to be very decentralized, so who knows?  It is undated.

3 pages stressing no airborne drones while planes are airborne.

4 levels of participation, from (theoretically) zero chance of arrest to highly likely prison time.

file:///C:/Users/rfa20/Pictures/Heathrow-Pause-for-the-first-two-weeks-of-July-1st-to-13th.pdf

mr. bob


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etienne

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Re: Extinction Rebellion
« Reply #243 on: June 15, 2019, 11:06:44 PM »
Here is the XR Heathrow "Pause" plan.  I guess you call it that.  Call for action??  XR claims to be very decentralized, so who knows?  It is undated.

3 pages stressing no airborne drones while planes are airborne.

4 levels of participation, from (theoretically) zero chance of arrest to highly likely prison time.

file:///C:/Users/rfa20/Pictures/Heathrow-Pause-for-the-first-two-weeks-of-July-1st-to-13th.pdf

mr. bob

It looks like an authentic document, and it is coherent with the XR strategy. In the non violent movements, there is often an important part of secrecy, but I wonder if it is always needed. Why don't they provide meeting places, precise times for the meetings...
Greenpeace is even more secret, most of the time you hear of the action when it is over, or at least started.
I believe that in a democratic country, it should be possible to announce an action in order to have as many participants as possible. To stop Heathrow, you just need to get there with enough people at a specific time.

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Re: Extinction Rebellion
« Reply #244 on: June 16, 2019, 02:36:49 AM »
It looks like an authentic document, and it is coherent with the XR strategy. In the non violent movements, there is often an important part of secrecy, but I wonder if it is always needed. Why don't they provide meeting places, precise times for the meetings...
Greenpeace is even more secret, most of the time you hear of the action when it is over, or at least started.
I believe that in a democratic country, it should be possible to announce an action in order to have as many participants as possible. To stop Heathrow, you just need to get there with enough people at a specific time.

A little naive Etienne...

Police spies infiltrated UK leftwing groups for decades
Quote
The police spies infiltrated the Socialist Workers party (SWP) almost continuously between 1970 and 2007, often with more than one undercover officer embedded within the party.

Four of them deceived women into sexual relationships while using their fake identities. One spy met one of his wives during his deployment and had a child with her.
https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2018/oct/15/undercover-police-spies-infiltrated-uk-leftwing-groups-for-decades

US judge orders release of 'first Black Identity Extremist'
https://foreignpolicy.com/2017/10/06/the-fbi-has-identified-a-new-domestic-terrorist-threat-and-its-black-identity-extremists/

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/COINTELPRO


etienne

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Re: Extinction Rebellion
« Reply #245 on: June 16, 2019, 11:19:34 AM »
I know that, but I don't have the feeling that there was much secrecy in the way Gandhi acted. Everybody was informed so that everyone could be there. I believe that the aim was not a superficial disturbance (like planes not able to start), but a disruption of the business model, and here Greta helps a lot more than annoying few people taking the plane the 18th of June. Of course disturbing schedule has a very high cost effect, but nothing in comparison with a reduction of the number of passengers.

etienne

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Re: Extinction Rebellion
« Reply #246 on: June 16, 2019, 11:37:51 AM »
Most companies have debts that they only are able to pay back in a stable or growing context. I don't want the planes business to stop, but I believe that we fly way too much. I don't understand why Luxembourg Reykjavik by plane costs the same than Luxembourg London by train. So planes tikets could be more expensive to keep the companies alive in a degrowth context.

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Re: Extinction Rebellion
« Reply #247 on: June 16, 2019, 02:40:43 PM »
I know that, but I don't have the feeling that there was much secrecy in the way Gandhi acted. Everybody was informed so that everyone could be there. I believe that the aim was not a superficial disturbance (like planes not able to start), but a disruption of the business model, and here Greta helps a lot more than annoying few people taking the plane the 18th of June. Of course disturbing schedule has a very high cost effect, but nothing in comparison with a reduction of the number of passengers.
Gandhi is a horrible example, sorry. Gandhi protested against British Colonial rule, but had support from Indian Bourgeoisie nationalists. He replaced one oppressive ruler with another.  If, instead, Gandhi had showed solidarity with the working class rather than the Indian Bourgeoisie, and tried a "peaceful revolution" to empower the poor, he would have been quietly murdered and swept away.  Gandhi could afford to be bold because he had powerful people supporting him.

Greta and XR are becoming more and more radical. Which is good, because climate change can ONLY be solved with radical transformation. Are any extremely powerful people supporting Greta's movement, like the Indian Bourgeoisie and Gandhi? No, especially compared to global capital who have so much to lose due to her success: Banks, Oil & Gas, Mining, Property, Manufacturing, Retail - and the superstructure that supports global capital: Politicians, Lobbyists, Think Tanks, Media, etc.

Even for me personally, I have to be extremely careful about making my activism public. Because I would be exiled from my industry if people know I was a socialist/environmental activist. And until I have strong union protection, I can't afford to make costly mistakes.

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Re: Extinction Rebellion
« Reply #248 on: June 16, 2019, 03:00:57 PM »
The slaughter of people defending their land or environment continued unabated in 2017, with new research showing almost four people a week were killed worldwide in struggles against mines, plantations, poachers and infrastructure projects.
https://www.theguardian.com/environment/2018/feb/02/almost-four-environmental-defenders-a-week-killed-in-2017
https://www.globalwitness.org/en/press-releases/deadliest-year-record-land-and-environmental-defenders-agribusiness-shown-be-industry-most-linked-killings/


And who trained and supported the people murdering environmentalists in Honduras. Obama and Clinton's United States of America:
https://www.huffpost.com/entry/the-us-role-in-the-honduras-coup-and-subsequent-violence_b_5766c7ebe4b0092652d7a138
https://jacobinmag.com/2018/12/honduras-coup-lobo-human-rights-us-obama-trump


And the United States makes the lives of domestic environmental activists extremely difficult by jailing them, or putting them through a very expensive and long-lasting legal process.
https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2018/jun/22/standing-rock-jailed-activists-water-protectors

And in Canada, we don't really consider indigenous people as people, especially the activists.
https://www.amnesty.ca/news/public-statements/joint-press-release/un-human-rights-report-shows-that-canada-is-failing

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Re: Extinction Rebellion
« Reply #249 on: June 16, 2019, 07:58:32 PM »
Don't know about Gandhi, but there are also rich and powerful people supporting Greta, otherwise she would still be with a smal group of people in Stockholm. Having been active against different projects, I know the difference if there is support or not. As an activist, you can contact the press, but you don't choose if and how you are published.
I agree that some secrecy might be needed in order to be able to inform of future events.