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Author Topic: Extinction Rebellion  (Read 18630 times)

zizek

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Re: Extinction Rebellion
« Reply #250 on: June 16, 2019, 08:12:23 PM »
I don't doubt that there are some rich people supporting Greta. But that is completely different than being supported by an entire class of powerful people, like in the case of Gandhi.

SteveMDFP

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Re: Extinction Rebellion
« Reply #251 on: June 16, 2019, 08:19:56 PM »
Don't know about Gandhi, but there are also rich and powerful people supporting Greta, otherwise she would still be with a smal group of people in Stockholm. Having been active against different projects, I know the difference if there is support or not. As an activist, you can contact the press, but you don't choose if and how you are published.
I agree that some secrecy might be needed in order to be able to inform of future events.

I suspect quite a number of oligarchs would prefer to avoid collapse of civilization, too.

wili

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Re: Extinction Rebellion
« Reply #252 on: June 16, 2019, 08:47:24 PM »
Not many or we wouldn't be where we are today.

In general, to even become an oligarch/billionaire, you have to be strongly motivated by money and little else. This is a very warped view of reality that does not generally allow for the humble, larger-picture thinking that would lead to an understanding that we are all totally dependent on a viable eco-system for survival.

The super-rich are generally super crazy.
"A force de chercher de bonnes raisons, on en trouve; on les dit; et après on y tient, non pas tant parce qu'elles sont bonnes que pour ne pas se démentir." Choderlos de Laclos "You struggle to come up with some valid reasons, then cling to them, not because they're good, but just to not back down."

zizek

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Re: Extinction Rebellion
« Reply #253 on: June 16, 2019, 11:44:24 PM »
Don't know about Gandhi, but there are also rich and powerful people supporting Greta, otherwise she would still be with a smal group of people in Stockholm. Having been active against different projects, I know the difference if there is support or not. As an activist, you can contact the press, but you don't choose if and how you are published.
I agree that some secrecy might be needed in order to be able to inform of future events.

I suspect quite a number of oligarchs would prefer to avoid collapse of civilization, too.

Uh, yeah. Rich people want to persist just like everyone else. But they want to do it on their terms. They're fine with the wholesale death and destruction of entire nations or even continents. They're completely fine with enslaving people to build their solar farms and hydro dams. Their completely okay with stealing minerals to build batteries for their cars.

History has shown/is showing us that powerful people will inflict horrible suffering in order to extract wealth. This will not change with climate change, it will only further embolden them, as they watch people become more and more desperate for a savior.

Fortunately, since most people on this forum are white wealthy westerners, you are positioned to avoid the worst of it, maybe even economically benefit from climate change. Just don't rock the boat!

Bob Wallace

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Re: Extinction Rebellion
« Reply #254 on: June 17, 2019, 12:26:03 AM »
The solution for avoiding extreme climate change is probably not to destroy the system and hope something beneficial will arise from the ashes.  We don't have time to do that over and over until we get our desired outcome.  Our best route, IMHO, is to pressure the existing system so that we speed the installation of renewable energy generation and the adoption of low carbon transportation. 

We are very unlikely to get more than a tiny percent of humans to make hard changes to their lifestyles in order to avoid extreme climate change.  Most will not change, at least until we reach the point at which the pain is severe.  We do not want to wait that long.  What we need to do is to give people acceptable low carbon/GHG alternatives that blend smoothly into their current lifestyles and costs then nothing more than what we now spend. 

We can replace fossil fuel generated electricity with renewable energy electricity and users won't even notice.  Their cost of electricity shouldn't increase and may well decline.

We can replace fossil fuel ground level transportation with EVs, battery powered buses, and electric trains.  It's much cheaper to drive a mile in an EV than to drive a mile in an ICEV and soon the price of EVs should be less than the price of ICEVs. 

We still have a problem to solve when it comes to air travel but air travel is only a small percentage of overall travel energy use so we can tackle the larger part of the problem while we continue to work on decarbonizing air travel.  We're starting to fly using batteries and new developments in batteries should lead to longer range flights. 

We need to get stuff done in a hurry.  And that means large scale efforts which means we need the lifting power of large business.  Solar panels, wind turbines and EVs need to be built on large scale in order to be affordable.  Someone is going to make money manufacturing, installing, and managing those systems/products.  Some may get mega-rich. 

Given the looming danger of climate change we should probably work to slow global warming first and deal with wealth inequality later or as a side issue.  Probably not best to clog up the low carbon industry with an economic revolution.

I'm guessing our best route to minimizing climate change is to work to get the right sort of people into leadership positions at the federal, state, and local level.  We need things like a price on carbon or RE/EV subsidies along with enabling legislation.  Make it profitable and not too difficult to convert our energy system from fossil fuel to renewable energy and "capitalism" will get busy and get it done.
---

I am not advocating for free market, unregulated capitalism.  We need to institute reasonable regulations that protect us while allowing those who are the most motivated to do stuff and make money to make money by installing RE and providing EVs.

Neven

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Re: Extinction Rebellion
« Reply #255 on: June 17, 2019, 12:33:55 AM »
This thread is for discussing Extinction Rebellion, not for defending preferred Green BAU lifestyles and associated conditioning.
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zizek

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Re: Extinction Rebellion
« Reply #256 on: June 17, 2019, 01:05:22 AM »

Bob, you are the worst. Why did you have to come back.

Bob Wallace

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Re: Extinction Rebellion
« Reply #257 on: June 17, 2019, 01:10:47 AM »
This thread is for discussing Extinction Rebellion, not for defending preferred Green BAU lifestyles and associated conditioning.

OK.  If you want to spend your time fantasizing about how 0.00001% of the population is going to change the entire world quickly enough to stop massive climate change then discuss away.

Everyone needs a hobby.

Shared Humanity

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Re: Extinction Rebellion
« Reply #258 on: June 17, 2019, 02:13:06 AM »
Fortunately, since most people on this forum are white wealthy westerners, you are positioned to avoid the worst of it, maybe even economically benefit from climate change. Just don't rock the boat!

BAU will result in the collapse of the system of capitalism. No one will benefit economically.

Human Habitat Index

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Re: Extinction Rebellion
« Reply #259 on: June 17, 2019, 02:52:08 AM »
How about the aerosol masking effect - an inconvenient truth that XR ignores.
There is a principle which is a bar against all information, which cannot fail to keep a man in everlasting ignorance. That principle is contempt prior to investigation. - Herbert Spencer

zizek

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Re: Extinction Rebellion
« Reply #260 on: June 17, 2019, 03:49:22 AM »
Fortunately, since most people on this forum are white wealthy westerners, you are positioned to avoid the worst of it, maybe even economically benefit from climate change. Just don't rock the boat!

BAU will result in the collapse of the system of capitalism. No one will benefit economically.
Before we experience a complete collapse of capitalism, there will be a transition to different forms of fascism/ecofascism. None of this is going to happen overnight. We're already seeing the beginning of fascism seeping through the cracks of failing liberal states. While many people are discussing climate change/environmental crisis in the terms of eugenics, degrowth, and blaming developing nations like India

Lots of opportunities to benefit economically in the climate change crisis.  Just look at the hysteria surrounding Musk. People are lining up to throw money at this guy because he's claiming he can save the world.  The man got his fortune from apartheid gem mining in Africa and flies around in a private jet. Nobody gives a shit about his background or intentions. They just want to be saved. Whatever the cost.

Archimid

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Re: Extinction Rebellion
« Reply #261 on: June 17, 2019, 08:08:32 PM »
Quote
Nobody gives a shit about his background or intentions. They just want to be saved. Whatever the cost.

Yep. That's why depopulation and the dismantling of the modern world without replacement technologies is so unappealing. If not-BAU will cost people's lives (extinction) then you are going to have to peel BAU from their cold dead hands.

We have the technology to make the transition, we just need to seriously try. Socialist, capitalist, vegans and meat eaters. We are going to have to come together to survive.
I am an energy reservoir seemingly intent on lowering entropy for self preservation.

Shared Humanity

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Re: Extinction Rebellion
« Reply #262 on: June 17, 2019, 08:58:58 PM »
If not-BAU will cost people's lives (extinction) then you are going to have to peel BAU from their cold dead hands.

BAU will cost lives. Not-BAU need not cost lives. It will simply mean we will be living much different lives, less consumerism, more of a focus on meeting the basic needs of people, more leisure...

Neven

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Re: Extinction Rebellion
« Reply #263 on: June 17, 2019, 09:01:47 PM »
BAU will cost lives. Not-BAU need not cost lives. It will simply mean we will be living much different lives, less consumerism, more of a focus on meeting the basic needs of people, more leisure...

And a cap on how much one person can own. Nothing can be solved without that. Concentrated wealth is driving the extinction, so that is what needs to be rebelled against in the first place.
« Last Edit: June 17, 2019, 09:12:07 PM by Neven »
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magnamentis

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Re: Extinction Rebellion
« Reply #264 on: June 17, 2019, 10:36:16 PM »
BAU will cost lives. Not-BAU need not cost lives. It will simply mean we will be living much different lives, less consumerism, more of a focus on meeting the basic needs of people, more leisure...

And a cap on how much one person can own. Nothing can be solved without that. Concentrated wealth is driving the extinction, so that is what needs to be rebelled against in the first place.

extend you (correct) way of thinking to the monetary system itself, especially interest on interest on interest ....... ad infinitum. that's not only a drive by greed but systemic, hence collapse for the less wealthy in favour of the very wealthy (accumulation) is inevitable, no cap will eliminate this systemic driver for forced growth = exploitation of resources and human work force ( i intentionally avoided the term "human resources") because i hate that term.

i never applied for a job since 40 years because when i heard that term i said no to a resource for others (except my close relatives )

nanning

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Re: Extinction Rebellion
« Reply #265 on: June 18, 2019, 06:41:17 AM »
Quote
And a cap on how much one person can own. Nothing can be solved without that. Concentrated wealth is driving the extinction, so that is what needs to be rebelled against in the first place.
I think you should expand your accumulation theory to not just monetary wealth but all things ownable. Perhaps you mean the same.

The main reasons for this behaviour are, in my view:
- social hierarchy (status); the more you own (incl. nature) the higher your status. Status is abstract, not real. I'd say it is insane.

- Inheritance; making sure the system never gets a liberating reset. Accumulation on accumulation.

In my theory this behaviour has its origin in supremacy over nature, which leads to insanity.
Insanity: your brain is not operating according to design. You forfeited the warranty ;)
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Reallybigbunny

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Re: Extinction Rebellion
« Reply #266 on: June 18, 2019, 07:02:46 AM »
How about the aerosol masking effect - an inconvenient truth that XR ignores.

I am very much involved in XR and am very aware of the aerosol masking effect. Some scientists predict + 4C temperature change if all industrial industry stopped. Hopefully this will be mitigated as industrial activity will be phased out over time... hopefully...

Tom_Mazanec

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« Last Edit: June 18, 2019, 10:33:41 PM by Tom_Mazanec »
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Archimid

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Re: Extinction Rebellion
« Reply #268 on: June 19, 2019, 12:14:58 AM »
Brave. As long as XR can keep the resistance peaceful and growing the case will advance.
I am an energy reservoir seemingly intent on lowering entropy for self preservation.

Sigmetnow

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Re: Extinction Rebellion
« Reply #269 on: June 23, 2019, 03:40:26 PM »
Nearly 70 climate change activists arrested outside New York Times headquarters
Quote
Dozens of people were arrested outside headquarters of The New York Times on Saturday after  a demonstration to demand that the newspaper refer to climate change as an emergency.

A New York City Police Department spokesman told Reuters that 67 people were arrested. Charges against the activists are pending.

The demonstrators, who were reportedly affiliated with the environmental group Extinction Rebellion, attached a sign reading “climate change = mass murder" to the Times' building. The word "change" was crossed out and replaced it with "emergency."

Another sign was affixed to the Port Authority Bus Terminal located across the street from the newspaper's headquarters, Reuters reported. That banner simply read "emergency."

Protestors also blocked the street in front of the office while participating in a "die in," according to the news service.
https://thehill.com/homenews/media/449889-nearly-70-climate-change-activists-arrested-outside-new-york-times
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SteveMDFP

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Re: Extinction Rebellion
« Reply #270 on: June 23, 2019, 03:44:11 PM »
Nearly 70 climate change activists arrested outside New York Times headquarters
Quote
Dozens of people were arrested outside headquarters of The New York Times on Saturday after  a demonstration to demand that the newspaper refer to climate change as an emergency.

That's a disappointing choice of target.  They could just as easily protested at the NYC headquarters of Fox News, or the NY Post. 

Sigmetnow

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Re: Extinction Rebellion
« Reply #271 on: June 23, 2019, 03:46:48 PM »
Nearly 70 climate change activists arrested outside New York Times headquarters
Quote
Dozens of people were arrested outside headquarters of The New York Times on Saturday after  a demonstration to demand that the newspaper refer to climate change as an emergency.

That's a disappointing choice of target.  They could just as easily protested at the NYC headquarters of Fox News, or the NY Post.

But the NYT is a much bigger target, with a much bigger following.
People who say it cannot be done should not interrupt those who are doing it.

Sigmetnow

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Re: Extinction Rebellion
« Reply #272 on: June 23, 2019, 03:49:28 PM »
This does not specify that it was Extinction Rebellion, but...

Climate activists end blockade of German coal mine
Quote
Hundreds of climate activists ended a protest inside one of Germany's biggest open-pit mines Sunday after police repeatedly ordered them to leave, citing life-threatening danger, and authorities pulled some protesters out.

The Garzweiler lignite coal mine was a focal point of environmental protests in Germany's Rhineland since Friday, when 40,000 students rallied for more action against climate change in the nearby city of Aachen.

"We wrote climate history this weekend," the activist group Ende Gelaende said in a statement announcing the end of the protest. "Our movement has never been so diverse and never been so determined."

The protests started after European Union leaders failed to agree on how to make the EU carbon neutral by 2050.
https://abcnews.go.com/Technology/wireStory/climate-activists-block-german-mine-orders-leave-63890632
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SteveMDFP

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Re: Extinction Rebellion
« Reply #273 on: June 23, 2019, 03:51:26 PM »


That's a disappointing choice of target.  They could just as easily protested at the NYC headquarters of Fox News, or the NY Post.

But the NYT is a much bigger target, with a much bigger following.
[/quote]

But the people who read the NYT aren't the people who need to have their minds changed.

zizek

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Re: Extinction Rebellion
« Reply #274 on: June 23, 2019, 04:14:34 PM »


That's a disappointing choice of target.  They could just as easily protested at the NYC headquarters of Fox News, or the NY Post.

But the NYT is a much bigger target, with a much bigger following.

But the people who read the NYT aren't the people who need to have their minds changed.
[/quote]

That's not true at all.... NYT caters to wealthy democrats. The sort of people who vote for Clinton, Obama, and Biden.

Sigmetnow

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Re: Extinction Rebellion
« Reply #275 on: June 23, 2019, 04:16:17 PM »

Quote

That's a disappointing choice of target.  They could just as easily protested at the NYC headquarters of Fox News, or the NY Post.

But the NYT is a much bigger target, with a much bigger following.
But the people who read the NYT aren't the people who need to have their minds changed.

I seriously doubt that readers of the NY Post or Fox News will change their minds on climate change because of a few signs or protestors.  (And their editors are unlikely to change, either.)  However, the term “climate emergency” appearing in the NYT says something, to the world.
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Neven

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Re: Extinction Rebellion
« Reply #276 on: June 23, 2019, 04:24:00 PM »
But the people who read the NYT aren't the people who need to have their minds changed.

Oh yes, they do. Soft denial is a much larger problem than hard denial. In fact, hard denial is used as a distraction. If there's one thing I have learned from this forum, it's that.

The NYT is one of the cogs in the machine that protects the system.
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vox_mundi

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Re: Extinction Rebellion
« Reply #277 on: July 02, 2019, 03:29:37 AM »
French Police Face Probe Over Tear Gas at Climate Protests   
https://dw.com/en/french-police-face-probe-over-tear-gas-at-climate-protests/a-49434323



Police in France faced criticism on Monday after a video of officers spraying tear gas on climate protesters staging a sit-in on a bridge emerged online, prompting the French interior minister to call for an investigation 

A video shared on Twitter and since widely broadcast on news channels shows a group of protesters sitting on the ground with their arms linked and heads bowed after they had refused orders to vacate the bridge.

When they refuse to move, officers spray them with hand-held tear gas canisters, while the demonstrators try to protect their faces. The video shows one officer forcibly remove a protester's protective goggles and sunglasses.

The video received condemnation both in France and abroad, with Sweden's teenage climate activist Greta Thunberg tweeting a link to the video with the words: "Watch this video and ask yourself; who is defending who?"
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Shared Humanity

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Re: Extinction Rebellion
« Reply #278 on: July 02, 2019, 09:35:55 PM »
But the people who read the NYT aren't the people who need to have their minds changed.

Oh yes, they do. Soft denial is a much larger problem than hard denial. In fact, hard denial is used as a distraction. If there's one thing I have learned from this forum, it's that.

The NYT is one of the cogs in the machine that protects the system.

+1

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Re: Extinction Rebellion
« Reply #279 on: July 16, 2019, 03:36:59 PM »
SHARKS (CROSSED OUT) MONGEESE (SIC) WITH FRICKIN LASER BEAMS ATTACHED TO THEIR HEADS