Support the Arctic Sea Ice Forum and Blog

Author Topic: Extinction Rebellion  (Read 53294 times)

kassy

  • Moderator
  • Nilas ice
  • Posts: 2386
    • View Profile
  • Liked: 1144
  • Likes Given: 992
Re: Extinction Rebellion
« Reply #400 on: November 22, 2019, 02:48:36 PM »
The School Strike for Climate and XR are two different groups with different methods.
Þetta minnismerki er til vitnis um að við vitum hvað er að gerast og hvað þarf að gera. Aðeins þú veist hvort við gerðum eitthvað.

nanning

  • Nilas ice
  • Posts: 2298
  • 0Kg CO₂, 37 KWh/wk,125L H₂O/wk, No offspring
    • View Profile
  • Liked: 262
  • Likes Given: 19550
Re: Extinction Rebellion
« Reply #401 on: November 22, 2019, 07:12:12 PM »
Thanks kassy for making that distinction clear.
Although they have overlapping interests.

Come on youth, wake up to the real world. To your diminishing chance of a save, healthy and nice future human life.
"It is preoccupation with possessions, more than anything else, that prevents us from living freely and nobly" - Bertrand Russell
"It is preoccupation with what other people from your groups think of you, that prevents you from living freely and nobly" - Nanning
Why do you keep accumulating stuff?

vox_mundi

  • Young ice
  • Posts: 3915
    • View Profile
  • Liked: 2278
  • Likes Given: 310
Re: Extinction Rebellion
« Reply #402 on: November 24, 2019, 01:36:37 AM »
The Harvard-Yale Football Game Was Delayed After Students and Alumni Stormed the Field to Protest Climate Change
https://amp.cnn.com/cnn/2019/11/23/us/harvard-yale-climate-protest-trnd/index.html



The Harvard-Yale football game was delayed Saturday after more than a hundred students and alumni flooded the field to protest against the schools' endowments from fossil fuel companies.

"Nobody wins. Yale & Harvard are complicit in climate injustice," read a banner held by the students.

Harvard was leading Yale 15-3 during the game in New Haven, Connecticut when the students ran into midfield as halftime was ending. The game was delayed for nearly 30 minutes until students were escorted out of the field by police.

https://twitter.com/ESPNCFB/status/1198321969726406663

Students are calling for both schools to divest their endowments from fossil fuel holdings. Yale students are demanding the school to pressure hedge fund managers to cancel any debt from Puerto Rico.

"Harvard and Yale claim their goal is to create student leaders who can strive toward a more 'just, fair, and promising world' by 'improving the world today and for future generations.' Yet by continuing to invest in industries that mislead the public, smear academics, and deny reality, Harvard and Yale are complicit in tearing down that future,"

... "We demand that our universities take responsibility for their role in perpetuating the climate crisis and global climate injustice -- we call on Harvard and Yale to fully disclose, divest, and reinvest their holdings in the fossil fuel industry, putting an end to business as usual and taking meaningful action towards building a more just and stable future,"
the student groups, Fossil Fuel Divest Harvard, Fossil Free Yale and Yale Endowment Justice Coalition, said in a statement following the protest.
“There are three classes of people: those who see. Those who see when they are shown. Those who do not see.” ― Leonardo da Vinci

Insensible before the wave so soon released by callous fate. Affected most, they understand the least, and understanding, when it comes, invariably arrives too late

TerryM

  • First-year ice
  • Posts: 6002
    • View Profile
  • Liked: 896
  • Likes Given: 5
Re: Extinction Rebellion
« Reply #403 on: November 24, 2019, 11:36:11 AM »
^^
Ramen!!


It's about time.
Terry

Neven

  • Administrator
  • First-year ice
  • Posts: 7751
    • View Profile
    • Arctic Sea Ice Blog
  • Liked: 1128
  • Likes Given: 512
Re: Extinction Rebellion
« Reply #404 on: November 25, 2019, 04:23:55 PM »
XR, meet PC.
Il faut comparer, comparer, comparer, et cultiver notre jardin

nanning

  • Nilas ice
  • Posts: 2298
  • 0Kg CO₂, 37 KWh/wk,125L H₂O/wk, No offspring
    • View Profile
  • Liked: 262
  • Likes Given: 19550
Re: Extinction Rebellion
« Reply #405 on: November 27, 2019, 10:10:38 PM »
U.K.:
   Charges dropped against more than 100 Extinction Rebellion protesters

Decision may prompt those detained in October protests to sue for wrongful arrest


https://www.theguardian.com/environment/2019/nov/27/charges-dropped-against-more-than-100-extinction-rebellion-protesters
   by Owen Bowcott


 First four paragraphs:
More than 100 Extinction Rebellion protesters have had charges against them dropped after the ban forbidding protest in London last month was ruled unlawful.

The Crown Prosecution Service decision will affect about 105 cases immediately, mostly those involving defendants facing trial for allegedly breaching section 14 of the 1986 Public Order Act.

Others formally accused of obstructing the highway will also have the cases against them discontinued, the CPS confirmed. Many cases will still go ahead.

The announcement may encourage large numbers of the estimated 1,800 protesters who were held between 14 October and 19 October to sue for wrongful arrest and detention.
"It is preoccupation with possessions, more than anything else, that prevents us from living freely and nobly" - Bertrand Russell
"It is preoccupation with what other people from your groups think of you, that prevents you from living freely and nobly" - Nanning
Why do you keep accumulating stuff?

rboyd

  • Nilas ice
  • Posts: 1331
    • View Profile
  • Liked: 232
  • Likes Given: 52
Re: Extinction Rebellion
« Reply #406 on: December 02, 2019, 09:05:38 PM »
I remember this tactic being used during the G20 meeting in Toronto, mass arrests with 2-3 days in really shitty cells and holding pens (plus strip searches), and the threat of a criminal record,  followed by dropped charges later. Designed to mess with protester's lives as much as possible. Works very well with the more middle and upper middle class protestors.

TerryM

  • First-year ice
  • Posts: 6002
    • View Profile
  • Liked: 896
  • Likes Given: 5
Re: Extinction Rebellion
« Reply #407 on: December 02, 2019, 11:21:41 PM »
^^
Those were particularly dark days in Harper's Canada.
As a recently returned citizen I was devastated.
Terry

nanning

  • Nilas ice
  • Posts: 2298
  • 0Kg CO₂, 37 KWh/wk,125L H₂O/wk, No offspring
    • View Profile
  • Liked: 262
  • Likes Given: 19550
Re: Extinction Rebellion
« Reply #408 on: December 03, 2019, 05:34:56 PM »
Big difference I think.
This time there is the threat of having no future. That's why there are also children and grandparents. This is not political, this is for survival, hence the name.
"It is preoccupation with possessions, more than anything else, that prevents us from living freely and nobly" - Bertrand Russell
"It is preoccupation with what other people from your groups think of you, that prevents you from living freely and nobly" - Nanning
Why do you keep accumulating stuff?

rboyd

  • Nilas ice
  • Posts: 1331
    • View Profile
  • Liked: 232
  • Likes Given: 52
Re: Extinction Rebellion
« Reply #409 on: December 15, 2019, 08:13:28 AM »
Seems to begetting ignored at COP25

Quote
No major breakthrough had been seriously expected at this year’s annual meeting, known as COP25, but observers had at least hoped to see a spirit of cooperation and a willingness to press ahead with the 2015 Paris agreement goal of holding temperature rises to no more than 2C.

Both were lacking as the talks moved into the early hours of Sunday. Poor countries grew angry at what they saw as intransigence on the part of some richer nations, while the EU and a coalition of developing countries urged others to come forward with more ambitious plans to combat climate breakdown.

https://www.theguardian.com/environment/2019/dec/14/un-climate-talks-drag-on-as-rifts-scupper-hopes-of-breakthrough

NeilT

  • Nilas ice
  • Posts: 1918
    • View Profile
  • Liked: 175
  • Likes Given: 11
Re: Extinction Rebellion
« Reply #410 on: December 15, 2019, 12:21:05 PM »
The next COP25 is scheduled to be held in Glasgow.

With a new Conservative government, on record as committing to carbon neutral by 2050 and with a manifesto pledge to reform courts that have dabble in politics, expect legal moves to stop these kinds of protests.

Although Scotland runs under a different legal system to the rest of the UK.

I doubt it will be allowed to paralyse Glasgow the way they did London.

What would be even more ironic is that Scotland is already carbon neutral for electricity generation and will ban new FF vehicles from 2030.
Being right too soon is socially unacceptable.

Robert A. Heinlein

gerontocrat

  • First-year ice
  • Posts: 9129
    • View Profile
  • Liked: 3605
  • Likes Given: 27
Re: Extinction Rebellion
« Reply #411 on: December 15, 2019, 08:26:48 PM »
The next COP25 is scheduled to be held in Glasgow.

With a new Conservative government, on record as committing to carbon neutral by 2050 and with a manifesto pledge to reform courts that have dabble in politics, expect legal moves to stop these kinds of protests.

Although Scotland runs under a different legal system to the rest of the UK.

I doubt it will be allowed to paralyse Glasgow the way they did London.

What would be even more ironic is that Scotland is already carbon neutral for electricity generation and will ban new FF vehicles from 2030.
Ban protests,
Start to kill Public Service Broadcasting,
Restrict the power of the Judiciary,
Reduce the power of Parliament to obstruct the Government.

Straight from the Dumbo's Guide to a Dictatorship?

Carbon neutral by 2050?
Either a genuine commitment or a good way to kick the can a long, long way down the road.
"Para a Causa do Povo a Luta Continua!"
"And that's all I'm going to say about that". Forrest Gump
"Damn, I wanted to see what happened next" (Epitaph)

NeilT

  • Nilas ice
  • Posts: 1918
    • View Profile
  • Liked: 175
  • Likes Given: 11
Re: Extinction Rebellion
« Reply #412 on: December 15, 2019, 09:18:50 PM »
If I have learned anything about Johnson, it is that he will enshrine carbon neutral by 2050 in UK law like he is doing the NHS funding. He will then point all whingers to that commitment.

As for the others? They thought they could kick Johnson around like a football because he had no majority. With a 78 seat majority they are going to pay the price.

As for the demonstrations? People got mad enough last time to be happy if he stands on them. Live by the sword and all that.
Being right too soon is socially unacceptable.

Robert A. Heinlein

rboyd

  • Nilas ice
  • Posts: 1331
    • View Profile
  • Liked: 232
  • Likes Given: 52
Re: Extinction Rebellion
« Reply #413 on: December 16, 2019, 03:48:25 AM »
Carbon neutral by 2050 is a bullshit commitment, kicking the can down the road. I will wait to see the interim commitments - 2025, 2030 etc.

NeilT

  • Nilas ice
  • Posts: 1918
    • View Profile
  • Liked: 175
  • Likes Given: 11
Re: Extinction Rebellion
« Reply #414 on: December 16, 2019, 09:59:59 AM »
Carbon neutral by 2050 is a bullshit commitment, kicking the can down the road. I will wait to see the interim commitments - 2025, 2030 etc.

The UK is already compliant with their Paris accord commitments and the pace is picking up rather than slowing down.

What is bullshit is making a commitment at Paris then complaining about semantics when they are not on track to meet their commitments.

If you keep kicking those who are actually doing something, then nobody will do anything
Being right too soon is socially unacceptable.

Robert A. Heinlein

gerontocrat

  • First-year ice
  • Posts: 9129
    • View Profile
  • Liked: 3605
  • Likes Given: 27
Re: Extinction Rebellion
« Reply #415 on: December 16, 2019, 12:52:02 PM »
Carbon neutral by 2050 is a bullshit commitment, kicking the can down the road. I will wait to see the interim commitments - 2025, 2030 etc.

The UK is already compliant with their Paris accord commitments and the pace is picking up rather than slowing down.

What is bullshit is making a commitment at Paris then complaining about semantics when they are not on track to meet their commitments.

If you keep kicking those who are actually doing something, then nobody will do anything
CarbonBrief suggest NeilT is partly right and partly wrong about UK progress on renewables.  Some extracts from
https://www.carbonbrief.org/analysis-half-uks-electricity-to-be-renewable-by-2025

First the good news...
Quote
Close to half of the UK’s electricity will come from renewable sources by 2025, according to Carbon Brief analysis of new government projections.

This marks a significant increase on earlier projections, which as recently as 2016 saw renewables meeting less than a third of demand in 2025. At the same time, there are further cuts to the outlook for gas-fired electricity generation, which is now set to drop by two-fifths over the next six years.
and now the bad news.....
Quote
Nevertheless, the projections show the UK missing its legally binding carbon budgets for 2023- 2032 by even wider margins than expected last year. The fifth carbon budget for 2028-2032 is now set to be missed by as much as 20%, according to the new energy and emissions projections from the Department for Business, Energy and Industrial Strategy (BEIS).

These latest projections highlight the large gap between the UK’s current climate goals and the policies that would be required to deliver them. They arrive just weeks before the publication of formal advice that is likely to recommend even greater ambition, targeting net-zero emissions in line with the Paris Agreement.
"Para a Causa do Povo a Luta Continua!"
"And that's all I'm going to say about that". Forrest Gump
"Damn, I wanted to see what happened next" (Epitaph)

NeilT

  • Nilas ice
  • Posts: 1918
    • View Profile
  • Liked: 175
  • Likes Given: 11
Re: Extinction Rebellion
« Reply #416 on: December 16, 2019, 03:46:40 PM »
Yes, but one is Fact that the UK is moving faster than projected.

The other is a projection that the UK will not move fast enough.

If this projection is as valid as the 2016 one, then we will remain on target.
Being right too soon is socially unacceptable.

Robert A. Heinlein

nanning

  • Nilas ice
  • Posts: 2298
  • 0Kg CO₂, 37 KWh/wk,125L H₂O/wk, No offspring
    • View Profile
  • Liked: 262
  • Likes Given: 19550
Re: Extinction Rebellion
« Reply #417 on: December 16, 2019, 05:14:03 PM »
I've heard in a talk at COP25 that an enormous amount of forest in the U.S.A. is cut each year for emission-free wood pellets to ship to the the U.K., to be burned, to feed just 1 particular U.K. power plant (ex-coal plant presumably). This was presented as an example of 'creative accounting', in other words: Lying.
What has the U.K. really done?
- I attached a link to the talk at COP25.
- Below that I attached a link to an interview with Kevin Anderson, where he gives his great view on biomass and planting trees to offset carbon emissions.

Greta mentioned 'creative accounting'.
Knowing the U.K. government a bit, this lying doesn't surprise me one bit. The Netherlands is nothing better. I've heard Sweden also has this emissions-free burning pellets lie. All those rich countries see loopholes as a chance to score but not do anything. It's how they think. That's the only behaviour they know, to be 'successful'.

at 26m35 (-27m35):     (also good from 23m25 on)


at 02m08 (-4m00):       (also recommended 20m35 and 23m58)

"It is preoccupation with possessions, more than anything else, that prevents us from living freely and nobly" - Bertrand Russell
"It is preoccupation with what other people from your groups think of you, that prevents you from living freely and nobly" - Nanning
Why do you keep accumulating stuff?

NeilT

  • Nilas ice
  • Posts: 1918
    • View Profile
  • Liked: 175
  • Likes Given: 11
Re: Extinction Rebellion
« Reply #418 on: December 16, 2019, 07:16:54 PM »
I downloaded the Biomass report today.  It has tons of information in it, but it would appear that it does depend on the local authorities to ensure that when the UK buys biomass from US forests, that the forestry management is done within internationally accepted rules.

I also downloaded the briefing paper from 2007 which included the calculations for transport, etc.

They are on my work laptop and I'll need to move them.

The power station is Drax and the US figure, for 2018 was 1.8 million tonnes.

If you want to go and look, the program is SBP and you don't want to confuse the Canadian SBP with the Scottish one.
Being right too soon is socially unacceptable.

Robert A. Heinlein

blumenkraft

  • Guest
Re: Extinction Rebellion
« Reply #419 on: January 04, 2020, 05:37:03 PM »
I take it this is the thread for climate protests in general these days? Here is a creative one!

PRAXIS ALERT: Australian Climate Protestors break into PM's house to shit on things

Link >> https://www.thesun.co.uk/news/10665312/home-australia-prime-minister-scott-morrison-smashed-up-fire-resign/

zizek

  • Frazil ice
  • Posts: 437
    • View Profile
  • Liked: 53
  • Likes Given: 10
Re: Extinction Rebellion
« Reply #420 on: January 06, 2020, 03:49:59 PM »
I'm amazed how much Thunberg's campaign has inspired young teenagers to become committed activists. They are smart, organized, and willing to fight. The zoomers are starting to outnumber the millennial activists like myself. And I couldn't be happier.

I took a break from these forums because it was destroying my brain. I'm glad to see that it's still a bunch of boomers endlessly posting corporate propaganda and promoting capitalism.
The discourse in this forum is one of the biggest obstacles to fighting climate change. People claiming they want to fight climate change while desperately clinging to the status quo. Trying to find the right technocratic fix to solve our fucked up society. It's never going to happen.

Neven

  • Administrator
  • First-year ice
  • Posts: 7751
    • View Profile
    • Arctic Sea Ice Blog
  • Liked: 1128
  • Likes Given: 512
Re: Extinction Rebellion
« Reply #421 on: January 07, 2020, 03:42:33 PM »
Clearly, you're not reading sidd's posts.  ;D
Il faut comparer, comparer, comparer, et cultiver notre jardin

zizek

  • Frazil ice
  • Posts: 437
    • View Profile
  • Liked: 53
  • Likes Given: 10
Re: Extinction Rebellion
« Reply #422 on: January 08, 2020, 03:29:16 PM »
woops. I was supposed to post this in the Greta thread.

sidd's post are A+. Unfortunately are is a loud group of people here that chose not to read them.

kassy

  • Moderator
  • Nilas ice
  • Posts: 2386
    • View Profile
  • Liked: 1144
  • Likes Given: 992
Re: Extinction Rebellion
« Reply #423 on: January 08, 2020, 08:50:51 PM »
People are people. Even with our relatively shared interests people read different things and often do not read both sides deeply. The divide sort of widens really quickly on the social political spectrum which is a pity because that shows that propaganda works.
Þetta minnismerki er til vitnis um að við vitum hvað er að gerast og hvað þarf að gera. Aðeins þú veist hvort við gerðum eitthvað.

nanning

  • Nilas ice
  • Posts: 2298
  • 0Kg CO₂, 37 KWh/wk,125L H₂O/wk, No offspring
    • View Profile
  • Liked: 262
  • Likes Given: 19550
Re: Extinction Rebellion
« Reply #424 on: January 09, 2020, 07:41:02 AM »
Quote from: zizek
I'm glad to see that it's still a bunch of boomers endlessly posting corporate propaganda and promoting capitalism.

What a sweeping, inaccurate and insulting statement. Thanks for helping out (not).
sidd is not confronting capitalist forumfriends as far as I know (please correct me sidd if I'm wrong). How is that A+?
"It is preoccupation with possessions, more than anything else, that prevents us from living freely and nobly" - Bertrand Russell
"It is preoccupation with what other people from your groups think of you, that prevents you from living freely and nobly" - Nanning
Why do you keep accumulating stuff?

rboyd

  • Nilas ice
  • Posts: 1331
    • View Profile
  • Liked: 232
  • Likes Given: 52
Re: Extinction Rebellion
« Reply #425 on: January 12, 2020, 10:34:22 PM »
Identity politics is a device for splitting groups that share interests so that they can be better managed and their impact reduced/co-opted/nullified. That's why neoliberal media outlets, corporations and other elites fully support it. It also focuses on the individual, rather than the group, matching the "no society" assumptions of neoliberal economics and ideology - a marriage made in hell.

So yes, lets all waste time calling each other names rather than addressing the people hiding behind the proverbial curtain. Some thoughts:
- An economic and political elite instigated the neoliberal revolution that screwed everyone else including the "boomers" the "millenials", "generation X" etc. etc.
- A working class lesbian has way more in common with a working class straight white man than mega-rich war-criminal loving Ellen Degeneres
- A middle aged working class black man has way more in common with a white 20-year old Barista (who works their ass off for peanuts) than elite-courtier and warmonger Barack Obama.
- 98-99% of the population is born male or female, straight, gay or bisexual and quite comfortable with that reality. So yes, the problems that many transexuals have in our society are real but that does not mean that we all have to be "woke" (and Martina Navratilova is a hero of the lesbian movement not a "transphobic" for believing in the concept of biological sex).

Apologies for the diatribe, bit I spend my days in North American academia and see so much energy being displayed on anything but climate change and economic inequality.

So all you boomers (including straight me) from what I see most young people have a really shitty time of it compared to what we had (unless they have rich parents of course) and they work pretty damn hard. They certainly seem to be doing less "drugs and rock and roll" than I did in my youth. To all you "young" people, cut that boomer shit out and understand that we mainly share interests across the age spectrum.

I will now return to the demise of our civilization due to unchecked exponential growth and ecological destruction ...

nanning

  • Nilas ice
  • Posts: 2298
  • 0Kg CO₂, 37 KWh/wk,125L H₂O/wk, No offspring
    • View Profile
  • Liked: 262
  • Likes Given: 19550
Re: Extinction Rebellion
« Reply #426 on: January 13, 2020, 09:28:03 AM »
Thanks for that context enhancement rboyd.
"It is preoccupation with possessions, more than anything else, that prevents us from living freely and nobly" - Bertrand Russell
"It is preoccupation with what other people from your groups think of you, that prevents you from living freely and nobly" - Nanning
Why do you keep accumulating stuff?

gerontocrat

  • First-year ice
  • Posts: 9129
    • View Profile
  • Liked: 3605
  • Likes Given: 27
Re: Extinction Rebellion
« Reply #427 on: January 13, 2020, 01:32:32 PM »
The new UK Government reveals it's environmental credentials....

https://www.theguardian.com/environment/2020/jan/13/priti-patel-defends-inclusion-of-extinction-rebellion-on-terror-list
Priti Patel defends inclusion of Extinction Rebellion on UK terror list
Home secretary accepts XR is not terror group but says assessment has to be based on ‘security risks’


XR was put on the list along with ISIS etc but then taken off.
______________________________________________________
Meanwhile, back in the USA

https://www.theguardian.com/environment/2020/jan/13/us-listed-climate-activist-group-extremists
Revealed: US listed climate activist group as ‘extremists’ alongside mass killers
DHS listed activists engaged in non-violent civil disobedience targeting oil industry alongside white supremacists in documents

_______________________________________________________

What a world.

"Para a Causa do Povo a Luta Continua!"
"And that's all I'm going to say about that". Forrest Gump
"Damn, I wanted to see what happened next" (Epitaph)

zizek

  • Frazil ice
  • Posts: 437
    • View Profile
  • Liked: 53
  • Likes Given: 10
Re: Extinction Rebellion
« Reply #428 on: January 15, 2020, 01:45:38 PM »
Identity politics is a device for splitting groups that share interests so that they can be better managed and their impact reduced/co-opted/nullified. That's why neoliberal media outlets, corporations and other elites fully support it. It also focuses on the individual, rather than the group, matching the "no society" assumptions of neoliberal economics and ideology - a marriage made in hell.

So yes, lets all waste time calling each other names rather than addressing the people hiding behind the proverbial curtain. Some thoughts:
- An economic and political elite instigated the neoliberal revolution that screwed everyone else including the "boomers" the "millenials", "generation X" etc. etc.
- A working class lesbian has way more in common with a working class straight white man than mega-rich war-criminal loving Ellen Degeneres
- A middle aged working class black man has way more in common with a white 20-year old Barista (who works their ass off for peanuts) than elite-courtier and warmonger Barack Obama.
- 98-99% of the population is born male or female, straight, gay or bisexual and quite comfortable with that reality. So yes, the problems that many transexuals have in our society are real but that does not mean that we all have to be "woke" (and Martina Navratilova is a hero of the lesbian movement not a "transphobic" for believing in the concept of biological sex).

Apologies for the diatribe, bit I spend my days in North American academia and see so much energy being displayed on anything but climate change and economic inequality.

So all you boomers (including straight me) from what I see most young people have a really shitty time of it compared to what we had (unless they have rich parents of course) and they work pretty damn hard. They certainly seem to be doing less "drugs and rock and roll" than I did in my youth. To all you "young" people, cut that boomer shit out and understand that we mainly share interests across the age spectrum.

I will now return to the demise of our civilization due to unchecked exponential growth and ecological destruction ...
I agree with the part of identity politics. It's a good way to atomize the leftist movement and shift the attention away from economic issues.

But you're making a big mistake that young people can identify with your generation. It's not just about age. It's about your position in a class society. How many boomers do you know gain income from rent and financial speculation? I'm guessing around 100%.....
NeilT is a great example of somebody who doesn't see anything wrong with owning multiple properties and speculating on them.  Nobody on these forums confronts him because a lot of you are in the same boat.....
Just look how your generation voted in the last UK election.
https://yougov.co.uk/topics/politics/articles-reports/2019/12/17/how-britain-voted-2019-general-election


It's not about age. It's not about identity. It's about your class position. It's about your relationship with capital. A boomer that owns 2 or 3 properties and hundreds of thousands in investments has far more in common with the the superwealthy than a 20 year old black barista. I'd like to see you convince me otherwise. Just look at this fucking graph....





Quote
To all you "young" people, cut that boomer shit out and understand that we mainly share interests across the age spectrum.

you think you can seriously sell this bullshit to zoomers? That you are a lot more alike than you think? You know, while they have no job prospects, price of living is astronomical, housing is impossible, climate change is going to cook them before retirement but not before fascism rips their souls out. While your generation had everything handed to you, then you did everything in your power to rip it away from us.

Maybe I'd buy your bullshit if there was some leadership among your generation in confronting our current economic and environmental challenges. Admit there is a problem with your generation. Challenge yourself, your colleagues, your friends, your family, your community. You have all the power to do so. Start now, and maybe the new generations won't rip your throat out.

Tom_Mazanec

  • Young ice
  • Posts: 3447
    • View Profile
    • Planet Mazanec
  • Liked: 578
  • Likes Given: 281
Re: Extinction Rebellion
« Reply #429 on: January 15, 2020, 06:09:00 PM »
My property is a unit in an apartment style condo. My investments are a few stocks my father left me. I have not had a job since 2010 and that was ~minimum wage. I live off a shrinking Trust.
I was born in 1958.
Don’t generalize.
SHARKS (CROSSED OUT) MONGEESE (SIC) WITH FRICKIN LASER BEAMS ATTACHED TO THEIR HEADS

nanning

  • Nilas ice
  • Posts: 2298
  • 0Kg CO₂, 37 KWh/wk,125L H₂O/wk, No offspring
    • View Profile
  • Liked: 262
  • Likes Given: 19550
Re: Extinction Rebellion
« Reply #430 on: January 15, 2020, 06:21:36 PM »
Great post zizek. I agree.
Shame about phrases like "buy your bullshit".

New generations won't see it like that I think. They don't get educated/explained that part of the picture. The picture is even bigger than you sketched because many 'boomers' (I really dislike those labels btw) have not profited and accumulated.

Good advise from Tom.
"It is preoccupation with possessions, more than anything else, that prevents us from living freely and nobly" - Bertrand Russell
"It is preoccupation with what other people from your groups think of you, that prevents you from living freely and nobly" - Nanning
Why do you keep accumulating stuff?

kassy

  • Moderator
  • Nilas ice
  • Posts: 2386
    • View Profile
  • Liked: 1144
  • Likes Given: 992
Re: Extinction Rebellion
« Reply #431 on: January 16, 2020, 12:35:27 AM »
Nobody on these forums confronts him because a lot of you are in the same boat.....

One of the great things about internet forums is communicating with people very different then you. You get to know about their thinking.

Confronting them will not help per se. They get it or they do not. They act or they do not.

And for every one you find on line there are thousands or more that do not post here, or read anything about the issue.

I get why some stuff annoys you but other peoples opinions are not easily changed by other  peoples opinions on the net so better work the real society (because peer pressure is a thing or maybe we can flip all those people wanting to have  a newer car  then their neighbours to wanting a more eco friendly car and house combo with extra climate credits on the rentals).
Þetta minnismerki er til vitnis um að við vitum hvað er að gerast og hvað þarf að gera. Aðeins þú veist hvort við gerðum eitthvað.

blumenkraft

  • Guest
Re: Extinction Rebellion
« Reply #432 on: February 19, 2020, 11:07:47 AM »
Extinction Rebellion Activists – On the Way to Jail? (w/ Margaret Butler)



Iain

  • Frazil ice
  • Posts: 169
    • View Profile
  • Liked: 53
  • Likes Given: 25
Re: Extinction Rebellion
« Reply #433 on: February 19, 2020, 01:41:09 PM »
@zizek

Older people have more investments because they have lived longer, get paid more due to their experience and see the need to fund their coming retirement.

(Generally, well me anyway)

ER's 3 demands are that "Government must do...."

Fine so far, but the other side of the coin is that We the Consumers are responsible, enterprise makes things people want to buy, if they don't they go bust.

So I'd like ER members to commit to reducing eating red meat, flying, adopting renewables, insulating, low carbon transport, etc. and challenge others to follow suit.
"If I have seen further than others, it is by standing upon the shoulders of giants." Isaac Newton

NeilT

  • Nilas ice
  • Posts: 1918
    • View Profile
  • Liked: 175
  • Likes Given: 11
Re: Extinction Rebellion
« Reply #434 on: February 19, 2020, 03:18:58 PM »
Young, single people always think they are different and have the only perspective in the world.

Until they marry, have a family and get taken over by the realities of life.

Then they start spewing out the same old bullshit they decried when they were young and single.

The more they rant, the more they have to retract.

That is life.
Being right too soon is socially unacceptable.

Robert A. Heinlein

nanning

  • Nilas ice
  • Posts: 2298
  • 0Kg CO₂, 37 KWh/wk,125L H₂O/wk, No offspring
    • View Profile
  • Liked: 262
  • Likes Given: 19550
Re: Extinction Rebellion
« Reply #435 on: February 19, 2020, 06:34:29 PM »
Last two posts.
Iain and NeilT, sorry, but I think that's dung from a male cow.

I'm not taking the effort now to give any arguments. Maybe later in another thread.
"It is preoccupation with possessions, more than anything else, that prevents us from living freely and nobly" - Bertrand Russell
"It is preoccupation with what other people from your groups think of you, that prevents you from living freely and nobly" - Nanning
Why do you keep accumulating stuff?

gerontocrat

  • First-year ice
  • Posts: 9129
    • View Profile
  • Liked: 3605
  • Likes Given: 27
Re: Extinction Rebellion
« Reply #436 on: February 19, 2020, 08:05:04 PM »
Young, single people always think they are different and have the only perspective in the world.

Until they marry, have a family and get taken over by the realities of life.

Then they start spewing out the same old bullshit they decried when they were young and single.

The more they rant, the more they have to retract.

That is life.
and get taken over by the realities of life.

When I was young,
- When I was young, I was told that I should try 2 or 3 jobs at least until I found an occupation that might suit me for the long-term,
- When I was young, after 1 year's hard saving I had enough deposit saved to buy my first little  house,
- When I was young we were pretty sure a permanent job was a permanent job,
- When I was young we were pretty sure that our standard of living would get better as the years went by,
- When I was young Planet Earth was a safe place.

So what have the young got now? The certainty that things are going to get worse and may not get better. The only uncertainty is how rotten is it going to get.

Such unwarranted complacency beggars belief.

Now I am old I can merely be a witness.
But if I was young ! Ah- the difficulty would be to restrain myself merely to non-violent civil disobedience.
"Para a Causa do Povo a Luta Continua!"
"And that's all I'm going to say about that". Forrest Gump
"Damn, I wanted to see what happened next" (Epitaph)

blumenkraft

  • Guest
Re: Extinction Rebellion
« Reply #437 on: February 19, 2020, 08:40:26 PM »
Again, a superlike would be nice to have...

Iain

  • Frazil ice
  • Posts: 169
    • View Profile
  • Liked: 53
  • Likes Given: 25
Re: Extinction Rebellion
« Reply #438 on: February 19, 2020, 09:04:02 PM »
@ Nanning, all, me as well.

Even if you live the most frugal life – food, shelter, clothing only-everything consumed has an affect on the planet and all who live there.

That’s a fundamental, there is no getting away from it.

Not a criticism, but consider – your strapline says “0Kg CO2” If I understand correctly you are claiming you have 0 kg CO2 emissions, I say that can’t be true , even with frugal consumption it has to be a number > 0
"If I have seen further than others, it is by standing upon the shoulders of giants." Isaac Newton

NeilT

  • Nilas ice
  • Posts: 1918
    • View Profile
  • Liked: 175
  • Likes Given: 11
Re: Extinction Rebellion
« Reply #439 on: February 19, 2020, 10:38:25 PM »
When my Grandfather was young, 80% of the people held 10% of the money.  They were never going to buy a property.  My Grandfather bought because he worked his ass off as an accountant in a cubicle producing the once quarterly single report ledger, by hand.

When my father was young he joined the RAF and He and my mother scrimped and saved for a solid decade before being able to afford the 30% deposit on a run down house in one of the cheapest areas of the country.  It was not until my mother took a job as a teacher and my father was promoted to Sergeant that we had any extra's in our life beyond affording the house.  A TV?  Only because my father was an electrician and he bought a broken one and repaired it.  it was a 9 inch black and white valve TV, I watched the Apollo Moon landing on it.

When I was young the economy of my city was destroyed by 26% inflation and the good socialist policies of a "wonderfuli" government, who thought that buying the public workers votes every 6 months with a 20% pay rise, whilst my father got 2% in the forces, had caused total havoc across the area.

I joined the Army on a 9 year contract because I had been staring at the same 5 jobs in the jobcentre for a year.  College didn't improve my chances with any of those 5 jobs.

When my children were young they lived in an area of total depravation with 50% unemployment for over 5 years.  No jobs, no opportunities, drugs rife on the streets and gang violence increasing by the year.

For me, the Army taught me that Nothing was for granted and if I wanted anything I was damned well going to have to get out there and do it for myself.

Yes, I was lucky to marry my current wife, fall into solid income and be able to take advantage of the once in a generation opportunity of the council house fire sale.  This allowed me to get onto the property ladder, but, even then, I had to pay a mortgage at 12.5%, not the piffling rates there are today.  I also had to put up 10% as 100% or 110% mortgages were still not the thing.

Mobile phones?  Didn't even exist.  Internet?  For me a few years later but only because I work in IT and had all the technology.  It was another 4 years before the people around me began to catch up.

From there my life has grown and blossomed.  But I've had to work 50 to 100 hours per week to make that happen.  I have had to work wherever the work is and leave my family behind in order to make it.

Nothing, Not One Single Thing, just came to me.  Job, income, home.  I had to work bloody hard for it and I had to sacrifice for it.

I get just a tad irritable when I hear the bleating of the "entitled" who just aren't "getting what they deserve"

The world has always been shite for everyone who hasn't made the world better for themselves.

The advice of #1 son?

"If you are looking for sympathy you will find it between shit and syphilis in the dictionary"

I am just a little tired of the "entitled" generation with their internet and TV's and holidays abroad and their living at home till they are 30 before venturing out.   Whilst complaining that they are, somehow, hard done to.

I can assure you that my father, living in the Blitz in London as young boy, didn't think they were having a life of Riley.

So the environment is screwed and it's not getting better.  So get out there and do something about it.  Don't complain, don't whinge, don't expect someone to magically just "fix it".  Get out there and kickstart a company that will grow into an environmental Tesla.

I'm constantly being told "I'm not doing enough".  Well I'm missing my family and restricting my life and working to drop my footprint from the heights it was.  What the Bloody hell are the Entitled generation doing?

Yeah, that's right, stopping mass public electric transport, complaining on the weekend or Uni holidays, having mass demonstrations.

Yep, that's constructive.  That'll do it every time.

Meanwhile they can "environmentally" insist we burn 100,m tonnes of CO2 grinding down glass and use it as a filler for construction....

Right.  I know, I'm bad and I'm doing nothing.  Or not doing enough.

Tell me though, how much more is the idiot standing on the Tube train doing than me?  What does he actually do in his life to reduce his emissions?  If we put his life under a microscope just how would that work out?

Because I can tell you that a Vegan diet in many western countries is just a tad more emitting than our ER Vegans would have us believe.

https://www.bbc.com/future/article/20200211-why-the-vegan-diet-is-not-always-green

So pardon me for being a little bit grumpy but I just want to level set the expectations of our youngest generation.

The only thing you are Entitled to is to work damned hard for your future.

Starting now.
Being right too soon is socially unacceptable.

Robert A. Heinlein

wili

  • Young ice
  • Posts: 3154
    • View Profile
  • Liked: 538
  • Likes Given: 374
Re: Extinction Rebellion
« Reply #440 on: February 20, 2020, 12:05:53 AM »
Interesting history, Neil.

Do you think you probably worked harder than anyone else? Do you think some people who worked even harder than you did, did less well because they didn't have some advantages that you might not be able to see?

As nanning and others will tell you, since the root of the problem is (now global) industrial civilization, some of us don't see generating yet more industry, no matter how 'green,' as a likely solution. Do you at least understand why some might take that position?

One other note: today, 50% of the population own only 1% of the wealth. https://www.axios.com/wealth-gap-united-states-bottom-50-top-1-percent-b89062ea-58fe-4f8c-853a-ad212a215330.html

"A force de chercher de bonnes raisons, on en trouve; on les dit; et après on y tient, non pas tant parce qu'elles sont bonnes que pour ne pas se démentir." Choderlos de Laclos "You struggle to come up with some valid reasons, then cling to them, not because they're good, but just to not back down."

Tom_Mazanec

  • Young ice
  • Posts: 3447
    • View Profile
    • Planet Mazanec
  • Liked: 578
  • Likes Given: 281
Re: Extinction Rebellion
« Reply #441 on: February 20, 2020, 12:33:28 AM »
@ Nanning, all, me as well.

Even if you live the most frugal life – food, shelter, clothing only-everything consumed has an affect on the planet and all who live there.

That’s a fundamental, there is no getting away from it.

Not a criticism, but consider – your strapline says “0Kg CO2” If I understand correctly you are claiming you have 0 kg CO2 emissions, I say that can’t be true , even with frugal consumption it has to be a number > 0
Taken literally he is saying he does not exhale  ;D
SHARKS (CROSSED OUT) MONGEESE (SIC) WITH FRICKIN LASER BEAMS ATTACHED TO THEIR HEADS

nanning

  • Nilas ice
  • Posts: 2298
  • 0Kg CO₂, 37 KWh/wk,125L H₂O/wk, No offspring
    • View Profile
  • Liked: 262
  • Likes Given: 19550
Re: Extinction Rebellion
« Reply #442 on: February 20, 2020, 07:51:03 AM »
Iain, I have been a bit too hard with my wordings about your earlier post, sorry.

My strapline only says "0Kg CO2" because this wouldn't fit: "0Kg CO2 in direct emissions". I have little control over the non-direct emissions. I can ony consume frugally and be aware of the carbon footprint/Biosphere effects of making and transporting the stuff I buy. e.g. With some exceptions I buy nothing from outside of Europe and I buy only organic food.


Regarding your earlier post:

I have problems with your "Older people have more investments" and "(generally". This is not what I see around me. Yes, a minority has investments.

I have also a problem with "enterprise makes things people want to buy". You seem to forget the all-pervasive temptations and manipulations in all media to make people buy more and more of stuff they don't need and ignore the consequences in planet-wide contexts.

Your last line about ER people is a good one I think.
In general it is nasty and low-morality to have behaviour that goes against your understanding of the impacts of it, e.g. Michael Mann who flies by aeroplane with his family to Australia. Bah.
I cannot understand why others in-the-know, like on this forum, can go on with having any direct emissions (car, heating etc.) or have a negative effect on the remaining living nature (consumerism, tourism, pets etc).

One has to deal with the consequences of ones believes.
One has to be absolutely honest with oneself.


Tom, exhaling CO₂ is within the carbon cycle.
gerontocrat and wili, thanks for your post.
"It is preoccupation with possessions, more than anything else, that prevents us from living freely and nobly" - Bertrand Russell
"It is preoccupation with what other people from your groups think of you, that prevents you from living freely and nobly" - Nanning
Why do you keep accumulating stuff?

Iain

  • Frazil ice
  • Posts: 169
    • View Profile
  • Liked: 53
  • Likes Given: 25
Re: Extinction Rebellion
« Reply #443 on: February 20, 2020, 10:30:06 AM »
@Nanning. No problem, no offence taken and none intended.
"If I have seen further than others, it is by standing upon the shoulders of giants." Isaac Newton

Richard Rathbone

  • Grease ice
  • Posts: 798
    • View Profile
  • Liked: 131
  • Likes Given: 11
Re: Extinction Rebellion
« Reply #444 on: February 20, 2020, 01:18:46 PM »
Young, single people always think they are different and have the only perspective in the world.

Until they marry, have a family and get taken over by the realities of life.

Then they start spewing out the same old bullshit they decried when they were young and single.

The more they rant, the more they have to retract.

That is life.

Read "The Pinch" by David Willetts if you want chapter and verse on how the Baby Boomers Stole Their Children's Future.

Its a real effect in the UK. Its large. Its down to the generation, not the stage of life. Younger generations (and older ones when they were still alive) have real grievances against how the Boomers exploited, and continue to exploit, their demographics to feather their own nests at the expense of other generations.

I'm a Boomer, a relatively young Boomer, and I've seen the drawbridge being pulled up behind me my whole life. Opportunities I had, and my parents had, were taken away from the next generations. Willetts has the data to quantify it and pick out what are general changes in society, what are changes with life stage, and what is the Boomers privileging themselves and there is quite a lot of Boomers privileging themselves.

Iain

  • Frazil ice
  • Posts: 169
    • View Profile
  • Liked: 53
  • Likes Given: 25
Re: Extinction Rebellion
« Reply #445 on: February 20, 2020, 01:28:15 PM »
Richard,

In summary, what are the main points?

"If I have seen further than others, it is by standing upon the shoulders of giants." Isaac Newton

Richard Rathbone

  • Grease ice
  • Posts: 798
    • View Profile
  • Liked: 131
  • Likes Given: 11
Re: Extinction Rebellion
« Reply #446 on: February 22, 2020, 02:09:13 PM »
Richard,

In summary, what are the main points?

The Boomers stole their children's future and they should give it back.

The main ways they did it was via biassing state support to the young when they were young, to the middle aged when they were middle aged, and to the old now they are old.

People of different ages have different interests, and a large generation can use its democratic weight to bias the intergenerational exchanges to feather its own nest by changing the rules to suit its age group as it ages. In Britain the Boomers have done that. (other authors have shown much the same thing has happened in the US) Its a version of the Golden Rule (he who has the gold makes the rules). In a democracy those that have the numbers make the rules, and most of the state finance in the modern welfare state is transfers between generations. The Boomers changed the rules to make the transfers larger when they were of an age to receive them, and smaller when they were of an age to pay them.

Lots of detail, fascinating in its own right, about generational changes to show that it wasn't just the luck of the draw, Boomers had luck too, but they also rigged the deck.


wili

  • Young ice
  • Posts: 3154
    • View Profile
  • Liked: 538
  • Likes Given: 374
Re: Extinction Rebellion
« Reply #447 on: February 22, 2020, 02:19:41 PM »
Sounds like BS.

Workers wages stagnated in the early '70s just as boomers were coming into the work force. Since then, pretty much all the increases in wealth have gone to the very most wealthy (and yes, some of them are boomers), not evenly distributed across the generation born in the 50's.
"A force de chercher de bonnes raisons, on en trouve; on les dit; et après on y tient, non pas tant parce qu'elles sont bonnes que pour ne pas se démentir." Choderlos de Laclos "You struggle to come up with some valid reasons, then cling to them, not because they're good, but just to not back down."

nanning

  • Nilas ice
  • Posts: 2298
  • 0Kg CO₂, 37 KWh/wk,125L H₂O/wk, No offspring
    • View Profile
  • Liked: 262
  • Likes Given: 19550
Re: Extinction Rebellion
« Reply #448 on: February 22, 2020, 04:24:32 PM »
'boomers'   or   'children, younger people'
us  vs  them   :'(

I think it is insane to blame the ongoing wrongs of the past on old people. You would've done the same thing in the same situation.
The powerful old families have changed the economic/financial system and have made lying and manipulation normal with their control over the media.

Let's work together in these extinction crises.
Reach out to older people and respectfully inform one another. Build understanding.
Protest non-violently :)

edit: changed second from last sentence; added structure and meaning
« Last Edit: February 22, 2020, 05:43:30 PM by nanning »
"It is preoccupation with possessions, more than anything else, that prevents us from living freely and nobly" - Bertrand Russell
"It is preoccupation with what other people from your groups think of you, that prevents you from living freely and nobly" - Nanning
Why do you keep accumulating stuff?

oren

  • First-year ice
  • Posts: 6213
    • View Profile
  • Liked: 2257
  • Likes Given: 1899
Re: Extinction Rebellion
« Reply #449 on: February 22, 2020, 04:43:56 PM »
I've seen a lot of this inter-generation gap.
Many old people with sorted pensions and paid off mortgages living the good life, going abroad 6 times a year, and many younger people with no future, having to switch jobs every few years, no chance to buy an apartment, and paying rents that rise every year.
When there is a problem with the pensions being unfunded and have to be cut a little, the whole political system joins hands to fund the promised pensions out of taxes. But the new generation's pension promises are much lower. Just one example.