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litesong

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Re: Extinction Rebellion
« Reply #50 on: November 10, 2018, 07:26:00 PM »
How much CO2 is that?.......Sorry, I forgot. Would you mind telling me again, or have you forgotten yourself....
First, I calculated my emissions & can calculate them anytime & even more accurately than you. Nothing to forget. From your own words, it appears you take someone else's calculations, apply them to yourself, & then forget the numbers.
 Neven's continual highlighting the emissions of someone gaining 45MPG, totally avoids the rampant misuse of carbon resources by private citizens who chose 10MPG vehicles to transport one driver. Racers can get less than 3-4MPG. The greatest American wastes in driving vehicles is most clear in 1) the "sport" of mudders, the use of 6000HP vehicles to run through a mud bowl, 2) incredible machines operating in "Tractor Pulls" & 3) drag racing. Of course, tire & engine pollutions from the "sport" of drifting are totally unacceptable.

Adam Ash

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Re: Extinction Rebellion
« Reply #51 on: November 12, 2018, 04:46:30 AM »
All the motor-sports you allude to are enjoyed by the participants, who burn a bit of gas, but their emissions are a tiny drop in the bucket compared with the fuel burned by the thousands of spectators who drive hundreds of miles to watch.  And if they aren't driving to watch motorsports, they are driving to watch the Big Bucket or some other similar 'sporting' misadventure.   Don't fret.  Mother nature will sort it out.  We will all be walking (under umbrellas) soon enough.

Sleepy

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Re: Extinction Rebellion
« Reply #52 on: November 14, 2018, 01:59:20 PM »
Couldn't find this one in this thread.


Posted 20181101, 1 608 views now.
Omnia mirari, etiam tritissima.
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Science is a jealous mistress and takes little account of a man's feelings.

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Re: Extinction Rebellion
« Reply #53 on: November 14, 2018, 03:18:52 PM »
Monbiot just has a piece out on the Grauniard:
https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2018/nov/14/earth-death-spiral-radical-action-climate-breakdown

Alas he mentions the Younger Dryas rapid cooling event. Do we have any comparable scenario like this today? Perhaps some rapid mega freshwater discharge from Antarctica? I doubt. (Alas forum member ASLR has quit...)

Sleepy

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Re: Extinction Rebellion
« Reply #54 on: November 14, 2018, 04:36:43 PM »
Science seems to be OT nowadays, ASLR started a thread about Dansgaard-Oeschger/Heinrich Events in 2013:
Supporting Paleo-Evidence/Calibration for WAIS Collapse Hazard Scenarios
https://forum.arctic-sea-ice.net/index.php/topic,130.0.html
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In my next series of posts, I will explore this postulated Heinrich/D-O periodic chaotic strange attractor pattern, superimposed on a longer-term global warming trend; and also how the repeated collapse of the WAIS during past interglacial peak periods has gouged troughs in the West Antarctic seafloor that increase the risk of the collapse of the current WAIS.
Omnia mirari, etiam tritissima.
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Science is a jealous mistress and takes little account of a man's feelings.

gerontocrat

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Re: Extinction Rebellion
« Reply #55 on: November 17, 2018, 06:45:49 PM »
In the forlorn hope that this post is not lost amongst all those about which dictator killed the most people...
https://www.theguardian.com/environment/2018/nov/17/thousands-gather-to-block-london-bridges-in-climate-rebellion
Scores arrested as thousands block London bridges in climate rebellion
Protesters close five main bridges across Thames over extinction crisis in huge act of peaceful civil disobedience

Quote
Forty-five people have been arrested as thousands of demonstrators occupied five bridges in central London to voice their concern over the looming climate crisis.

Protesters including families and pensioners began massing on five of London’s main bridges from 10am on Saturday. An hour later all the crossings had been blocked in one of the biggest acts of peaceful civil disobedience in the UK in decades. Some people locked themselves together, while others linked arms and sang songs.

By 2pm the blockade of Southwark Bridge had been abandoned and protesters moved from there to Blackfriars Bridge, where organisers said they were soon to move west towards Westminster Bridge.

Demonstrators occupied Southwark, Blackfriars, Waterloo, Westminster and Lambeth bridges.

The Metropolitan police said all the bridges had since reopened. A spokesman said: “There have been over 70 arrests for obstruction of the Highway Act and Bail Act offences.

Extinction Rebellion, which cites the civil rights movement, suffragettes and Mahatma Gandhi as inspirations, said smaller events took place in other UK cities as well as overseas on Saturday.

Organisers say they are planning to escalate the campaigns from Wednesday, when small teams of activists will “swarm” around central London blocking roads and bridges, bringing widespread disruption to the capital.

“Given the scale of the ecological crisis we are facing this is the appropriate scale of expansion,” said Bradbrook. “Occupying the streets to bring about change as our ancestors have done before us. Only this kind of large-scale economic disruption can rapidly bring the government to the table to discuss our demands. We are prepared to risk it all for our futures.”
« Last Edit: November 17, 2018, 06:54:39 PM by gerontocrat »
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etienne

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Re: Extinction Rebellion
« Reply #56 on: November 17, 2018, 08:20:06 PM »
On the other side of the Channel, 240'000 people protested against the gasoline price hike.

vox_mundi

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Re: Extinction Rebellion
« Reply #57 on: November 18, 2018, 12:38:53 AM »
To paraphrase Marie Antoinette ...

"Let them drive Teslas"
“There are three classes of people: those who see. Those who see when they are shown. Those who do not see.” ― Leonardo da Vinci

Insensible before the wave so soon released by callous fate. Affected most, they understand the least, and understanding, when it comes, invariably arrives too late

etienne

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Re: Extinction Rebellion
« Reply #58 on: November 18, 2018, 09:01:10 AM »
To paraphrase Marie Antoinette ...

"Let them drive Teslas"

This is a good description of the social situation. There are people who are so rich that they can have a fully powered renewable modern comfort (excepted for the plane and the yacht) and very proud of it, and others don't know how to make it until the next paycheck. I believe that a little bit of solidarity will be needed if we want to achieve the energy transition. The dream of unlimited consumption and comfort is also driven by the behavior of the upper class.

Jim Hunt

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Re: Extinction Rebellion
« Reply #59 on: December 16, 2018, 01:47:49 PM »
One of the greatest political speeches ever?

https://twitter.com/keith__johnston/status/1073928714189189120

From GretaT@COP24
Reality is merely an illusion, albeit a very persistent one - Albert Einstein

Jim Hunt

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Re: Extinction Rebellion
« Reply #60 on: December 16, 2018, 02:37:17 PM »
More from Greta, referencing Stefan Rahmstorf:

https://twitter.com/GretaThunberg/status/1074051128051073025

Quote
This is what we have to do. This is what have to focus on every hour of every day. This is everybody’s moral duty. Starting today.
Reality is merely an illusion, albeit a very persistent one - Albert Einstein

ASILurker

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Re: Extinction Rebellion
« Reply #61 on: December 23, 2018, 09:57:03 AM »
Q: "How do you view humanity's present situation in terms of the climate crisis and our attempts to deal with it at the UN climate negotiations?"

NOAM: Well, we face a very serious dilemma. A stark, cruel dilemma. On the one hand there is a severe, dire crisis. Dealing with it cannot be delayed. It's the most important issue that has arisen in human history. This generation - in fact today's leaders and people - will make a decision as to whether organized human society can survive in any decent livable form. It's no less than that.

That's one horn of the dilemma. The other horn of the dilemma is that we have to face the reality of the world. We have to find ways of reacting that are not only justified, but are also feasible and effective.

So, for example it would be entirely justified to send the most powerful person in the world, the President of the United States to The Hague for trial for severe crimes against humanity. And many lesser figures as well. That would be justified. (But) It's not feasible, it's not effective. To choose approaches that are feasible and effective, we have to recognize the reality of the situation we face and adjust our approaches accordingly. [...]

No one's gonna brought to the Hague. But recognizing that it would be legitimate and justified is an important way of helping the people comprehend the enormity of what is happening before their eyes. We should always bear in mind the slogan that Antonio Gramsci made famous: "We should have pessimism of the intellect, but optimism of the will." It has never been more important than it is now.



http://ScientistsWarning.TV

https://twitter.com/extinctionr?lang=en

https://xrebellion.org/

This is an emergency situation – action is urgent.
Our Government isn’t acting in accordance with what science and history tells us.
Therefore our Government is criminally negligent.
We have a moral duty to rebel, whatever our politics.
History shows us that peaceful civil disobedience is an effective way to bring about change.
Our lives have meaning when we follow our conscience and fight to protect what we love.
We ask others who feel the same way to join our peaceful Rebellion.

vox_mundi

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Re: Extinction Rebellion
« Reply #62 on: January 23, 2019, 11:27:44 AM »
Chris Hedges gets full-on 'medieval' with the climate denying 'Christian right' and corporate rape of the planet.

Confronting the Culture of Death
http://smirkingchimp.com/thread/chris-hedges/83130/confronting-the-culture-of-death
“There are three classes of people: those who see. Those who see when they are shown. Those who do not see.” ― Leonardo da Vinci

Insensible before the wave so soon released by callous fate. Affected most, they understand the least, and understanding, when it comes, invariably arrives too late

Neven

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Re: Extinction Rebellion
« Reply #63 on: January 30, 2019, 08:45:48 PM »
Extinction Rebellion comes to the US:

Il faut comparer, comparer, comparer, et cultiver notre jardin

vox_mundi

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Re: Extinction Rebellion
« Reply #64 on: February 01, 2019, 11:48:06 PM »
Students Are Preparing for the First Major U.S. Climate Strike Next Month
https://earther.gizmodo.com/students-are-preparing-for-the-first-major-u-s-climate-1832260725

... “We now have to start being more direct. We’re not going to get anything done if we keep going by the rules”
“There are three classes of people: those who see. Those who see when they are shown. Those who do not see.” ― Leonardo da Vinci

Insensible before the wave so soon released by callous fate. Affected most, they understand the least, and understanding, when it comes, invariably arrives too late

vox_mundi

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Re: Extinction Rebellion
« Reply #65 on: February 14, 2019, 05:27:30 PM »
Climate Change: Young People Striking from School See It for the Life-threatening Issue It Is
https://phys.org/news/2019-02-climate-young-people-school-life-threatening.html

Today's young people are the first generation to have lived their entire lives under the threat of catastrophic climate change. They're now positioned as future leaders, forced to take urgent action on an issue which older generations have lacked the political will, organisation and authority to address.

... This contagious sense of young people caring and daring to stand up against climate inaction became one of the most salient and hopeful findings of the Climate Change and Me project. And now, we see this finding playing out on a larger scale: while climate change is darkening young people's lives, along with their prospects for a liveable future, we see children and young people using powerful and creative tactics to claim a voice and a political platform in society, and confront the greatest challenge of our age.
“There are three classes of people: those who see. Those who see when they are shown. Those who do not see.” ― Leonardo da Vinci

Insensible before the wave so soon released by callous fate. Affected most, they understand the least, and understanding, when it comes, invariably arrives too late

etienne

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Re: Extinction Rebellion
« Reply #66 on: March 01, 2019, 02:59:27 PM »
One day, I found that Luxembourg started to look like East Germany, kids can be taken care of at almost no costs, churches are becomming Culture Centers... and now we just went one step forward, the Ministry of Education decided that the kids that would participate to the climate change protest action of the 15th of March would be excused for missing school. Maybe the banners will be prepared by the Environment Minister (Gasoline more expensive - but not too much otherwise people won't come from abroad anymore...) and they will get a free t-shirt.

etienne

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Re: Extinction Rebellion
« Reply #67 on: March 15, 2019, 05:21:15 PM »
Finally, the Luxembourgish walk for climate happend to be a great success. More than what was expected.

b_lumenkraft

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Re: Extinction Rebellion
« Reply #68 on: March 15, 2019, 05:22:58 PM »
Support your local kid!

etienne

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Re: Extinction Rebellion
« Reply #69 on: March 15, 2019, 07:04:08 PM »
The joke in the Luxembourgish situation is that since the government accepted that kids would leave school to go to the protest if they provided a written permission to the schools, they now know that there are quite many parents who find a Climate Change protest at least as good as a day in school, which probably means that these parents are not convinced of the Climate policies of the government.

And we have european elections in Mai.

b_lumenkraft

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Re: Extinction Rebellion
« Reply #70 on: March 16, 2019, 07:59:45 AM »
#FridaysForFuture

Bernard

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Re: Extinction Rebellion
« Reply #71 on: March 16, 2019, 12:34:05 PM »
According to 350.org
https://twitter.com/350/status/1106680124722896896

"Over 1.4 million young in over 300 cities took part in the March 15 #climatestrike - the biggest day of global climate action ever."

josh-j

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Re: Extinction Rebellion
« Reply #72 on: April 18, 2019, 08:06:34 PM »
Over 400 arrests in London so far this week as protesters retain hold of a number of sites across the city for a fourth consecutive day. An attempt to evict protesters from Parliament Square failed last night with XR rebels able to move back to their blockades following a number of arrests but with many more waiting to be arrested.

Also reports of police struggling for custody capacity, with some of those arrested being moved into custody outside London.

Some pictures are probably appropriate!
https://www.theguardian.com/environment/gallery/2019/apr/18/extinction-rebellion-protests-photos-from-day-four

Amazing to see that this is still snowballing, and to see that Mark Carney, the Governor of the Bank of England - and François Villeroy de Galhau, Governor of the Banque de France - chose this Rebellion Week to publish a letter stating that financial institutions cannot afford to ignore climate change.

https://www.theguardian.com/environment/2019/apr/17/mark-carney-tells-global-banks-they-cannot-ignore-climate-change-dangers

David Attenborough is on the BBC tonight with a programme specifically about climate change, and is guaranteed an extremely high viewership here in the UK. Could this be a watershed moment?

If not now, then soon?

I will be in London tomorrow to join Extinction Rebellion in solidarity.
« Last Edit: April 18, 2019, 08:15:47 PM by josh-j »

Archimid

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Re: Extinction Rebellion
« Reply #73 on: April 18, 2019, 08:38:25 PM »
Thank you. Please remember, keep it peaceful but stay resolute.
I am an energy reservoir seemingly intent on lowering entropy for self preservation.

Gray-Wolf

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Re: Extinction Rebellion
« Reply #74 on: April 18, 2019, 08:54:36 PM »
Do us proud josh J!

I cannot believe , as a life long Socialist and a multi decadal climate change vocal advocate ( and the disinformation I've fought to highlight), that all of this is suddenly happening!

Let us hope that we do not lose the public but rather embarrass them that they value their own comforts above their children's ( and our planet's) futures?
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Neven

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Re: Extinction Rebellion
« Reply #75 on: April 18, 2019, 09:03:57 PM »
Good for you, Josh!
Il faut comparer, comparer, comparer, et cultiver notre jardin

gerontocrat

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Re: Extinction Rebellion
« Reply #76 on: April 18, 2019, 10:59:06 PM »
Good for you, Josh!
Been watching the BBBC programme fronted by Attenborough.

Way to go, Josh
"Para a Causa do Povo a Luta Continua!"
"And that's all I'm going to say about that". Forrest Gump
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silkman

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Re: Extinction Rebellion
« Reply #77 on: April 18, 2019, 11:29:56 PM »
Are you watching the follow up to Attenborough on BBC 4 - The Age of Stupid?.

Looking back from 2050 it's really getting the message across. We really do deserve the title!

Interestingly it was made in 2008.

SteveMDFP

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Re: Extinction Rebellion
« Reply #78 on: April 19, 2019, 02:36:51 AM »

I will be in London tomorrow to join Extinction Rebellion in solidarity.

Thank you, josh.  I leave fairly near Washington, DC.  I've always thought it a special responsibility to participate in protests and marches when there's little notable burden in doing so.  I was there for Gulf War I and II.  My health now permits a broader remit of issues. 

See you on the ramparts!

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Re: Extinction Rebellion
« Reply #80 on: April 19, 2019, 05:05:35 AM »
Yours truely demanding the Nelson Council in New Zealand declare a climate emergency. See short video at link below.

https://www.facebook.com/josegcano.111/videos/271302860415158/




If not now, when?
If not me, who?

josh-j

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Re: Extinction Rebellion
« Reply #81 on: April 20, 2019, 01:29:18 AM »
Thanks for the thanks but I have not yet gone so far as to be arrested! (Might cost me my job. Still, there's a temptation there, especially when watching other people taking that step. I have a video of the roar of applause and cheers as someone is carried off by four police officers. People really have their hearts in this.)
But I have sat in the roads and added to the numbers.

I can't emphasise enough how brilliant and inspirational XR activists have been this week! Waterloo Bridge is like a plantation of small trees and other plants, watered by volunteers. People bring more plants as they attend. This bridge is usually heavy traffic! The bright pink boat which was in Oxford Circus for four days took all afternoon for police to remove, because protestors blocked surrounding roads when they tried to drive it away.

The protests continue and a few of my family members want to go there too and show support. I think the combination of school strikes, Extinction Rebellion and now David Attenborough in such a short space of time has really changed something. Greta Thunberg visits next week, which will help too.  :)

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Re: Extinction Rebellion
« Reply #82 on: April 20, 2019, 01:42:50 AM »
Yours truely demanding the Nelson Council in New Zealand declare a climate emergency. See short video at link below.

Wow - now THAT deserves respect, brilliant RBB!

GoSouthYoungins

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Re: Extinction Rebellion
« Reply #83 on: April 20, 2019, 05:32:01 AM »
Yours truely demanding the Nelson Council in New Zealand declare a climate emergency. See short video at link below.

And yet they freak out when someone takes a substantial step toward reducing the country's carbon footprint by 50 ppl. Hypocrisy.
big time oops

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Re: Extinction Rebellion
« Reply #84 on: April 22, 2019, 12:27:22 PM »
Greetings  from Extinction Rebellion Marble Arch! Two of my friends were arrested at Waterloo Bridge but they are back here again. It's a marvellous atmosphere , I went to the initial rebellion in October, amazing how far it has come in 6 months

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Re: Extinction Rebellion
« Reply #85 on: April 22, 2019, 02:01:54 PM »
Greetings  from Extinction Rebellion Marble Arch! Two of my friends were arrested at Waterloo Bridge but they are back here again. It's a marvellous atmosphere , I went to the initial rebellion in October, amazing how far it has come in 6 months

It's incredible how fast and how far it has come. I must say, I'm struggling a bit with what to do; my heart and soul want me to become 'arrestable' - I'm not great at meeting people I don't know, joining groups or whatever - it just isn't my thing, but I sure as hell would be dragged off a bridge into a cell if it could help keep this movement going (after all, I have white privilege on my side.. :s ). Apart from donating money that would probably be the most useful thing I could do.

The one problem is that I work in an "enhanced vetted" job, and even an arrest with no charges can show on the record my employer views. They would probably not think highly of such a record. But who knows, is it could be worth the risk....  :o The planet is burning after all (literally - there's a moorland fire outside my window right now).

Seriously considering asking my manager how it might be viewed; its hard to say, because I work in a very large company so it isn't just a question of asking the boss  :-\

You must be proud of your friends, Sparkles - hope the party can continue a good while longer in London. Amazing atmosphere all over, and absolutely fan-friggin-tastic to see XR and climate change all over the news and new people joining and donating all over the place!  ;D :D

SteveMDFP

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Re: Extinction Rebellion
« Reply #86 on: April 22, 2019, 02:17:52 PM »

The one problem is that I work in an "enhanced vetted" job, and even an arrest with no charges can show on the record my employer views. They would probably not think highly of such a record. But who knows, is it could be worth the risk....  :o The planet is burning after all (literally - there's a moorland fire outside my window right now).

Seriously considering asking my manager how it might be viewed; its hard to say, because I work in a very large company so it isn't just a question of asking the boss  :-\

I can relate.  At times, I've had too much to lose to be a strong activist.  At times, not much of anything to lose.  Problem is, most with little to lose are so consumed by just getting food, shelter, and necessities that they don't feel the importance of activism.

I've sought to do my part by opening my home to a few folks with little to lose.  It's been costly in its own way, but I have no regrets.  If you live in a strategic area, you might lend some living space to folks who want to come and protest or do other activist work.  I'm not sure couchsurfing.com has activists or whether rebellion.earth has a bulletin board system for places to stay.

b_lumenkraft

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Re: Extinction Rebellion
« Reply #87 on: April 22, 2019, 05:07:28 PM »
Long have we waited. It's finally here.

The climate bullshit fund!


SteveMDFP

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Re: Extinction Rebellion
« Reply #88 on: April 22, 2019, 05:21:35 PM »
Long have we waited. It's finally here.

The climate bullshit fund!
 

It's quite good, and possibly powerful.  There's a rich tradition of satire being used effectively to defeat corruption.  The classic example is Thomas Nast and Tammany Hall:

Thomas Nast takes down Tammany: A cartoonist’s crusade against a political boss
https://blog.mcny.org/2013/09/24/thomas-nast-takes-down-tammany-a-cartoonists-crusade-against-a-political-boss/

NeilT

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Re: Extinction Rebellion
« Reply #89 on: April 23, 2019, 12:11:48 PM »
So, for example it would be entirely justified to send the most powerful person in the world, the President of the United States to The Hague for trial for severe crimes against humanity. And many lesser figures as well. That would be justified. (But) It's not feasible, it's not effective. To choose approaches that are feasible and effective, we have to recognize the reality of the situation we face and adjust our approaches accordingly. [...]

And there is the problem in a nutshell.  If that were to actually happen, then the US president has the power to pull the US from both NATO and the UN.  Totally crippling both organisations.  Both organisations provide the peace, security and prosperity the world sees today.  They provide the mechanism for Nations and groups of nations to interact and arbitrate to have a safer and more stable world.

Pulling the US out of both of these organisations would cripple them and send a message to the world that it is "OK" to go out there and grab what you want, whenever you want it.

The US Provides 22% of the UN base budget and 9% of all peacekeeping missions.  Removing that would cripple it instantly.  But the bigger issue is that the US is the largest and most powerful military organisation on the planet.  Removing that from both the UN and NATO would remove the bedrock of stability that allows the Hague to be the international court and not a vassal member of the Warsaw pact, ignored by the rest of the world.

I find this kind of myopia common in Activism.  It is also common in children.  Children are most disruptive with their parents, the very people who protect them and allow them to live the life they lead.  In time most learn, but not all.

So whilst all these calls to chop off the head of the "monsters" who are causing this problem go out, ignoring the fact that these "monsters" actually give them the space, freedom and liberty to make the call; reality is a totally different thing.

It was only last year that I sat one of my Grandson's down and explained the climate facts of life to him.  That I will be dead and gone and he will be living the deteriorating life of a climate out of control.  That it was his job, his responsibility, to be aware and to hold his seniors accountable for that problem.  In short it was for him to become engaged and work towards making his government deal with the very real problems he will end his life with.

The sad part is that ER London is not the response to that.  Oh yes, it looks good and it sounds good.  "We're making progress" they shout.  What progress exactly?  Parliament is on holiday, Londoners have had worse and, to put the icing on the cake; when these students (yes they are predominantly students), go back to college and university, after the Easter break, the powers that be will simply carry on as they were.

Now if this was students out of college, with government in session and the city paralised for a month, I could say "yes this is the message".  But, in fact, those students are going to go back to their studies because, in the end, their immediate future is more important than their long term future with the climate.

If ER were to have protests and disruptions every day, every week, constantly, I would say that this is a real message.

But the REAL message comes at the ballot box and most of these rebels probably won't vote.  In protest you know.

I support the cause.  I really do.  But if you want change you do it every day, constantly, like the daily grind of a job.  You use every tool at your disposal.  When an election comes up you USE your vote instead of abrogating responsibility by failing to vote, allowing others who do not share your views to have even more impact with their own vote.

Sensationalism is really sexy and everyone can get on board and it all sounds really great.  But tell me one revolution which actually delivered on all its promises?

Dull as it is, the daily grind does have results and it does work.  It is just not very sexy.  But, hard as it is to understand, it is actually faster.
Being right too soon is socially unacceptable.

Robert A. Heinlein

Ranman99

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Re: Extinction Rebellion
« Reply #90 on: April 23, 2019, 12:46:35 PM »
Everyone is running with the herd. EVERYONE!!!  8)
Randy Fitton

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Re: Extinction Rebellion
« Reply #91 on: April 23, 2019, 01:30:21 PM »
Amazing stuff, but NeilT is accurate with his statement 'What progress exactly?'.

Here is my advice after a decade as a corporate sustainability consultant to many large companies. Now is the time to poke them while you have their attention. Consumer-facing companies are typically super sensitive to being on the wrong side of public movements. So read their CDP Climate Change disclosure @ www.cdp.net (if they haven't posted, ask why they haven't responded when many of their peers likely have). Find something you want to know more about and email the contact listed on the disclosure. Generally this strategy is more effective coming from an employee, investor, or business client/customer, but a retail customer can work as well.

Sustainability managers/directors within these companies generally want to do the right thing but are handicapped by resources and the attention of upper management. Requests by stakeholders are their ammunition towards how their plan to use renewable electricity, rooftop solar, Science-Based Target or whatever plan (sustainability folks generally always have a plan in waiting for opportunities such as this) can reduce the company's brand risk (I know, I know, you want them to actually care about Climate Change, but brand reputation is a huge motivator so take what you can get).

josh-j

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Re: Extinction Rebellion
« Reply #92 on: April 23, 2019, 04:27:00 PM »
Now if this was students out of college, with government in session and the city paralised for a month, I could say "yes this is the message".  But, in fact, those students are going to go back to their studies because, in the end, their immediate future is more important than their long term future with the climate.

If ER were to have protests and disruptions every day, every week, constantly, I would say that this is a real message.

But the REAL message comes at the ballot box and most of these rebels probably won't vote.  In protest you know.

I support the cause.  I really do.  But if you want change you do it every day, constantly, like the daily grind of a job.  You use every tool at your disposal.  When an election comes up you USE your vote instead of abrogating responsibility by failing to vote, allowing others who do not share your views to have even more impact with their own vote.

NeilT, you say you support the cause, but do you do it every day, constantly, like the daily grind of a job?

For what its worth, climate is way higher in public consciousness as a result of just this one week of XR (combined with the school strikes and Attenborough of course). Not only that but they're still there in Marble Arch (now marched to Parliament) and don't show any sign of going away. And not only THAT, but they aren't just students at all, and the ones who are may be involved in the "YouthStrikes4Climate".

I know that a week's disruption isn't going to change the world - that's obvious. But XR didn't even exist less than a year ago and now it is an international movement; this is only just getting started. Greta Thunberg has now advocated for a general strike (I know others have done so many times before, but she has a high media profile right now!) - that to me would be a great next step to combine with further XR disruptive actions.

Sparkles

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Re: Extinction Rebellion
« Reply #93 on: April 23, 2019, 04:50:46 PM »
The Govt Environment Minister (Michael Gove ) has apparently just agreed to meet Greta Thunberg and Extinction Rebellion, ( https://twitter.com/OccupyLondon/status/1120685110871957511) so things are moving on the official acknowledgement side at least.
Over the week of action so far, it feels as if the UK press are subtly shifting their ground, from decrying 'eco-rabble' last week to 'they might have a point' this week

josh-j

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Re: Extinction Rebellion
« Reply #94 on: April 23, 2019, 04:59:20 PM »
The Govt Environment Minister (Michael Gove ) has apparently just agreed to meet Greta Thunberg and Extinction Rebellion

Wow that's a surprise to be honest. I assumed they were just hoping it would blow over - usual tactics, what a "good record" the UK "has" (had) on the environment, blah blah blah protests over, then back to supporting fracking.

I think this time, it will not blow over...

NeilT

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Re: Extinction Rebellion
« Reply #95 on: April 23, 2019, 08:18:36 PM »
NeilT, you say you support the cause, but do you do it every day, constantly, like the daily grind of a job?

Define support?  I've been there, repeating the information that you can't keep on pushing CO2 into the atmosphere, since the early 1990's as my interest was triggered in the mid 1980's.  I have taken the abuse, the laughter, the isolation and the derision for decades.  Yet I have never wavered in making sure that I won't be in a room where disinformation is being disseminated without having a say with the truth.

I will still be doing this a decade from today.  But, at least, there will be more people who listen.

ER?  A few demonstrations and a government minister, from a failing and desperate government, agrees to have a few "talks".  Macron agreed to "talk" to the Giles Jeaune's too.  Didn't get very far did it?

Here are a few interesting points for you when you think about the UK and ER.

Germany has a strong Green movement and the most motivated move towards "renewable" technology.  Yet Germany is significantly failing in its compliance with the Paris accord and CO2 emissions are on the rise.

The UK is already virtually in line with the Paris accord because of the changes to the power generating grid and moves for CO2 neutral power.  All without a strong Green movement.  When the UK leaves the EU, the EU will have a black hole in its Paris accord compliance because the UK reductions in CO2 will be lost to the EU and Germany is unable to reduce its own emissions to help out.

I don't see Berlin grinding to a halt!

Nor Washington DC.

But, please do, beat the UK for actually complying with Paris, Scotland will have a ban on all FF vehicle sales in 2030, UK cities are starting to ban FF vehicles (not just London) and this is just going to increase.  The UK will ban all FF vehicle Sales from 2040.

If ER Really wants to stop AGW and the CO2 emissions problem, then it needs to be in Beijing, Washington DC and Delhi, shutting the cities down and making the rulers come to the table to talk.

What are you going to demand that the UK is not already doing?  Huge investment in wind power? Done.  Investment in bringing EV into the UK?  Done.  Removal of coal fired power to reduce FF in the grid? Done.  Moves to remove carbon from the Grid whenever possible? Done.  Pricing vehicle fuel to reduce usage?  Done. 

Have you ever lived or worked in a country where fossil fuels were not massively taxed?  I spent a week in Caracas where 50p would fill your tank and fuel in the UK was over £4 a gallon.  Taxis did not have meters, they had journey costs.  Because the same journey could be 15 minutes or 2.5 hours depending on the time of day.

I haven't yet seen what ER is asking for.  What exactly do they want?  The end to all fossil fuel use?  Great, they can lead by example and walk home.

If we want greater awareness I'm all for that.  But awareness without constructive goals is not going to help.

Do we want to?

Accelerate UK solar adoption?
Accelerate UK wind adoption?
Accelerate UK Tidal adoption?

Because if we want the solar, the best thing we can do is get rid of the 50% tariffs the EU has slapped on Cheap Chinese solar products, in favour of German products at near twice the price.  Excellent move, if you want to stop the widescale adoption of Solar.  Perhaps we want to ask for Tesla to produce a Solar Roof and PowerWall factory in the UK so that we can all spend £20,000 to go totally "off grid" for a net saving of about £1,000 per year.  Really great, we can also buy a Tesla car and charge it with our new clean power.  At a cost of around £30,000.  After all the savings will be a wonderful thing.

Just one little problem.  Nobody is going to produce 30 million EV's next week, or next year or next decade (well, maybe that).  As for 26 million solar roof's and powerwalls?  Right, not going to happen is it.

So that's solar.  Wind?  We're already doing that.  Just like Germany our power cost is climbing and everyone is up in arms.  But it's worth the cost.  Well if we can actually get rid of all those CCGT power stations that ensure you have power on a still winters night.

And what about tidal?  Well you see most of those people who support ER don't want a Severn barrier.  Why?  Well, it might, just might, disturb some local species which live there.  The fact that those local species are going to face their own extinction in the next half century, through CO2 based AGW doesn't seem to have filtered through.

So all those people in London and what do they want?

Because, honestly, I have no clue and I doubt that they do either.

Long after they have left Uni and gone onto their jobs I'll still be here.  I will have my own Solar with prices continuing to fall, eventually, plus I will, in the long run, get an electric vehicle. When they are generally available.  I will still support the overall cause, educate my family and continue to talk down disinformation and vote for those who progress the cause of AGW reduction.  I will continue to use my communication skills to try and influence those in power to lean towards CO2 neutral infrastructure.

Tell me, honestly, what most of those students, in London today, will be doing 5 years from now?

Just how many will be wage slaves, married and raising a family.  Who's last worry in the world will be what CO2 they are emitting in their daily lives.  Well, perhaps not last, but certainly not in the top 10.  They will remain aware, they just won't be as direct in addressing it.

You see that's the problem with being older.  We've already seen this kind of demonstrations.  Over and over and over again.

Maybe, just maybe, it will do some good and move things a little faster.  We can all hope.

Just don't hold your breath.
Being right too soon is socially unacceptable.

Robert A. Heinlein

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Re: Extinction Rebellion
« Reply #96 on: April 24, 2019, 03:47:46 AM »
NeilT, you say you support the cause, but do you do it every day, constantly, like the daily grind of a job?

I haven't yet seen what ER is asking for.  What exactly do they want? 

So all those people in London and what do they want?

Because, honestly, I have no clue and I doubt that they do either.


iow your entire rant here about Extinction Rebellion is based on your own ignorance and wilful laziness to get to the facts.

Quote
Extinction Rebellion is an international apolitical network using non-violent direct action to persuade governments to act on the Climate and Ecological Emergency.

We have three demands in the UK (of Govt):
1) Tell the truth
2) Act Now
3) Beyond Politics (Government must create and be led by the decisions of a Citizens’ Assembly on climate and ecological justice.)
https://rebellion.earth/the-truth/demands/

Quote
Extinction Rebellion was established in the United Kingdom in May 2018 with about one hundred academics signing a call to action in support in October 2018, and launched at the end of October by Roger Hallam, Gail Bradbrook, Simon Bramwell, and other activists from the campaign group Rising Up!

Demands
Extinction Rebellion's website states its aims as:
    "The Government must tell the truth about the climate and wider ecological emergency, reverse inconsistent policies and work alongside the media to communicate with citizens.
    The Government must enact legally binding policy measures to reduce carbon emissions to net zero by 2025 and to reduce consumption levels.
    A national Citizens' assembly to oversee the changes, as part of creating a democracy fit for purpose."
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Extinction_Rebellion#Demands

Quote
Extinction Rebellion: Non-violent direct action and civil disobedience for action on #ClimateBreakdown and #EcologicalCollapse
https://twitter.com/extinctionr?lang=en
Quote
We Declare: International Non-Violent Rebellion Against the World’s Governments for Criminal Inaction on the Ecological Crisis
WE DEMAND:
>> Governments tell the truth
  about the ecological Crisis
>> zero emissions & drawdown by 2025
>> Participatory Democracy
https://xrebellion.org/

It's really hard to tell if NeilT is duplicitous, lazy, or just plain stupid (or has some other issues) josh-j seems entirely justified in questioning his bona fides and his "thinking" or lack thereof, as well as his dominant beliefs and opinions not grounded in facts or evidence.

He is most certainly clueless on this ER subject that's for sure, and which he openly admitted above.

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Re: Extinction Rebellion
« Reply #97 on: April 24, 2019, 04:09:37 AM »
Wow, someone's on a mission going back to Dec 2018 to lift this "quote" and then to not only mislead the viewers but completely misrepresent that quote and the rest that was said, and why it was said in relation to Extinction Rebellion.

But where is Oren when you need someone to "out misleading" comments? Missing in action.


So, for example it would be entirely justified to send the most powerful person in the world, the President of the United States to The Hague for trial for severe crimes against humanity. And many lesser figures as well. That would be justified. (But) It's not feasible, it's not effective. To choose approaches that are feasible and effective, we have to recognize the reality of the situation we face and adjust our approaches accordingly. [...]

And there is the problem in a nutshell. 

Not so. But I think you will find the problem in the mirror.

The referenced quote above was not by Lurk. The text has been taken from a larger direct quote by Noam Chomsky. Duly referenced correctly by Lurk.

Why did NeilT not accurately present the quotation and source to the group? Could be anything from laziness to duplicity to incompetence to who knows why and who cares anyway. BUt it's telling. 

But not only that, while going on a mission against Extinction Rebellion claiming :
Quote
I haven't yet seen what ER is asking for.  What exactly do they want?

So all those people in London and what do they want?

Because, honestly, I have no clue and I doubt that they do either.

NeilT has ignored, nor quoted the ER information in my comment he was quoting from either, being:
Quote
http://ScientistsWarning.TV
https://twitter.com/extinctionr?lang=en
https://xrebellion.org/

This is an emergency situation – action is urgent.
Our Government isn’t acting in accordance with what science and history tells us.
Therefore our Government is criminally negligent.
We have a moral duty to rebel, whatever our politics.
History shows us that peaceful civil disobedience is an effective way to bring about change.
Our lives have meaning when we follow our conscience and fight to protect what we love.
We ask others who feel the same way to join our peaceful Rebellion.


What the world needs is far less Sophistry (from those like Murdoch's Press and folks like the NeilTs in the world) and more Truth, Honesty, Competency from all.

More Extinction Rebellion actions seems a step in the right direction to me.

oren

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Re: Extinction Rebellion
« Reply #98 on: April 24, 2019, 04:42:30 AM »
I doubt invoking my name every now and then is a useful posting strategy, but what do I know?  ???

ASILurker

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Re: Extinction Rebellion
« Reply #99 on: April 24, 2019, 06:10:26 AM »
but what do I know?  ???

Not much imho. :D