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etienne

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Re: Extinction Rebellion
« Reply #350 on: September 28, 2019, 05:16:44 PM »
^^
What does climate neutrality mean?
Honestly, I would say that it is one of many concepts that have been defined to make greenBAU marketing possible. Anyway, there are many companies producing trendy products that are far from fair trade and ecological.

philopek

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Re: Extinction Rebellion
« Reply #351 on: September 28, 2019, 05:32:07 PM »
^^
What does climate neutrality mean?

Let me give you an example, don't hesitate to follow up in case it's not a good one for you:

If you fly to a specific destination and pay for as many trees as necessary to compensate for the CO2 footprint you just left.

IMO this is kind of an "Alibi" thingy, even though it's certainly better than nothing.

- it often lacks control to verify that money is used in full for the purpose

- a significant percentage of the funds are used for administration purposes

- I doubt that full CO2 footprint is calculated, especially in my example above

- IMO the only way to reduce CO2 footprint is consume A LOT less, in fact only what's necessary and then in case of exceeding the basics to perhaps compensate in some cases, that at least makes sense.

For example it does not make sense for northern Europeans to fly to the mediterranean sea in summer if at all. Climate and landscapes are perfect very far up north, days are longer and most countries are tourist countries during summer themselves, hence for recreation it's not necessary to go south where AC is needed and overcrowding is causing many side effects and excess CO2.

Many would push the tear glands and argue, that this is when kids have a holiday, just in case we accept to travel that way at all. I'd tell them that nature doesn't care a tiny bit when humans have their holidays and a shorter holiday in winter would suffice too, at least one can compensate a bit via less heating and warm water consumption while away ;) ;)

Alls this are only examples, there are many of such examples.

Most of the so-called CO2/climate neutral things are only neutral when looked at them very tolerantly. In fact it means mostly, "Business As Usual"

Privately I'd make it short and say it's mostly a fraud/cheat and many make money with it, hence a business model as well, that would be ok if it were real as advertised.

« Last Edit: September 28, 2019, 05:37:14 PM by philopek »

nanning

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Re: Extinction Rebellion
« Reply #352 on: September 28, 2019, 06:25:36 PM »
^^
What does climate neutrality mean?
<snip>
Most of the so-called CO2/climate neutral things are only neutral when looked at them very tolerantly. In fact it means mostly, "Business As Usual"

Privately I'd make it short and say it's mostly a fraud/cheat and many make money with it, hence a business model as well, that would be ok if it were real as advertised.

Thank you philopek for that.
I agree in general but I think that all that advertising does is make you believe a dream, make you see or feel things that are not real, lie, manipulate; the abuse, and souring of, groupbehaviour and social functions with pumping up the idea of status and individuality.

If any society needs the evil of temptation for the distribution/logistics of goods and services then something is very very deeply wrong with that society imo.
"It is preoccupation with possessions, more than anything else, that prevents us from living freely and nobly" - Bertrand Russell
   Simple: minimize your possessions and be free and kind    It's just a mindset.       Refugees welcome

philopek

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Re: Extinction Rebellion
« Reply #353 on: September 28, 2019, 11:49:35 PM »
I agree in general but I think that all that advertising does is make you believe a dream, make you see or feel things that are not real, lie, manipulate; the abuse, and souring of, groupbehaviour and social functions with pumping up the idea of status and individuality.

Just to avoid misunderstandings, if you mean ME with those YOUs in bold my answer is no, I'm not depending or relying on advertising, in fact I mostly hate ads. I never purchase things that are advertised, I ponder over what i want and select from the result what i need and then search the appropriate product that fulfills certain criteria. This is a general approach while nothing is 100% of course, ads can provide ideas and I'm not immune to beautiful things ;)

If you mean people as a whole, society with those YOUs, i agree, that's how it mostly is, I'd guess a 98% quota for such behavior.

Thanks for the feedback either way, i can see what you are trying to convey and agree with the
underlying way of thinking and how to look at things.

nanning

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Re: Extinction Rebellion
« Reply #354 on: September 29, 2019, 04:52:39 AM »
No, I didn't mean you personally. Sorry for the confusion Philopek.
I should written that clearer.
Thank you for your personal story in this context.

What are your thoughts on:
- Do you agree that our current systems are fundamentally dependent on temptation?

- That through this the people are/have been conditioned into a fantasy dreamworld? That this has created the consumerists?

Quote
Thanks for the feedback either way, i can see what you are trying to convey and agree with the
underlying way of thinking and how to look at things.
That's nice to read. Thanks! :)
« Last Edit: September 29, 2019, 04:57:53 AM by nanning »
"It is preoccupation with possessions, more than anything else, that prevents us from living freely and nobly" - Bertrand Russell
   Simple: minimize your possessions and be free and kind    It's just a mindset.       Refugees welcome

philopek

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Re: Extinction Rebellion
« Reply #355 on: September 29, 2019, 05:32:00 PM »

What are your thoughts on:
- Do you agree that our current systems are fundamentally dependent on temptation?

- That through this the people are/have been conditioned into a fantasy dreamworld? That this has created the consumerists?


a) It always depends on how deep one follows to roots to the well ;) While tend to seek the very lowest reach of the root, it's also evident that solving issues at the surface by taking care of the deepest point wont' work with human behavior, people can't follow and kill the messenger ;), virtually nowadays, literally a few decades ago with some regional exceptions.

Hence I on one hand agree with your statement but think it's worth there are even deeper "dependences" to you your term or roots to use mine.

Temptatin is based on curiosity at best and on rivalry at worst.

Rivalry is based on ego and since ego is neutral, necessary to survive and deadly when
uncontrolled, the solutions to all this is "EGO-CONTROL", means that ethics based on
understanding and sincere motives, willing to pay a personal price for things to be done right
and being ready to lose to remain as clean as possible with our doings.

Best example to explain this is real love against interest based love. If we love we are ready to step back, to lose, to pay, to forego, just to make the person we love happy or prepare the path for
a good life.

Interest based love, no matter what the interest/motivation is, will only work as long as both interests are in some kind of sync, a range of how much we are willing to give/share to
remain within our own range to reach our goals.

In short, ego is a tool that we have to use responsibly and the check list are ethics, easy to verify to change the side like turning a chess board 180° too see things from the other side. If we accept a move by our opponent, we can consider the possibility to act the same way.

b) I call this illusionism and concur while the tip of the root is in the very vicinity of a) that illustrates very well why it depends on how deep we follow the roots. Let's say a) and b) share a long way down to the tip while only at the very end they split into tiny ends and stay very close so that we have apparently 2 topics while in fact they are from the same branch, if we solve a), b) does not exist.

Last but not least, illusions work on both sides, evil meant and well meant. A well meaning Illusionist will achieve nothing while the evil meaning illusionist will achive a lot and that explains in parts why up to this day the evil prevails, it's easier to succeed and rivalry advertises success.

Whenever someone is pointing at a soo.... successful guy, i mostly can only either shut up or express that illusionary success in my opinion is a fail and means doom for the masses of sheep following the illusionists over the cliff, to use that common image ;)

BTW:

The never ending discussion what is "On Topic" and what's "Off Topic" as well depends on how far down a branch we are willing or allowing to dig, or in  other words, how many ramifications
we allow in a discussion.  For those who think very holistic, everything is "on topic" and for those who either THINK in fields of expertise or those who are narrow minded, almost everything that can be seen as a separate branch is "Off Topic"

Since these are very personal preferences and part of personalities, it will never be possible to share views in detail, hence we need rules and someone who ultimately decides, else anarchy would be the result and that's not a valid option as well.

For me it's very difficult to be muted by such rules but then as mentioned the alternative is anarchy and that's definitely worse. I mention this because I've seen one of your posts that blow a similar horn along my own line of thinking ;) ;)

Jim Hunt

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Re: Extinction Rebellion
« Reply #356 on: October 06, 2019, 11:51:52 AM »
Via @DamienGayle on Twitter:

https://twitter.com/damiengayle/status/1180474119390928896

Quote
Police use a battering ram to break into Extinction Rebellion warehouse in Kennington, south London.

Equipment confiscated from Extinction Rebellion included these pink bean bags, which remain under heavy guard from the Met’s territorial support group.



Reality is merely an illusion, albeit a very persistent one - Albert Einstein

Jim Hunt

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Re: Extinction Rebellion
« Reply #357 on: October 07, 2019, 11:45:23 AM »
My old mates David Rose and Matt Ridley are out in force dissing Tamsin Edwards on Twitter for her alleged support for XR blockading a hospital. For more details see:

https://forum.arctic-sea-ice.net/index.php/topic,578.msg232226.html#msg232226
Reality is merely an illusion, albeit a very persistent one - Albert Einstein

be cause

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Re: Extinction Rebellion
« Reply #358 on: October 07, 2019, 01:49:32 PM »
my act of rebellion today .. I named a seedling willow .. 'Salix alba 'Fred's Red' after my father whose father planted the seedling's parents over 100 years ago . Dad would have been 100 next monrh but buggered off at 95 . :) . Fred's red has very bright orange red stems and should serve as a help in encouraging folk to plant replacements as our ash trees succumb to die-back . Orders for stock welcome 2021 on .. :) .. b.c.
   
 p.s. congrats Jim on your 4242 posts .. that's a nice prime number of 42's ..
« Last Edit: October 07, 2019, 01:55:23 PM by be cause »
2007 + 5 = 2012 + 4 = 2016 + 3 = 2019 ...

kassy

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Re: Extinction Rebellion
« Reply #359 on: October 07, 2019, 02:08:44 PM »
Nice detail bc.  :)

Lot´s of protests all around:

Dozens of Extinction Rebellion activists have been arrested as protests take place across the globe.

Thirty people were charged with committing offences in Sydney after hundreds blocked a road, while activists surrounded a government building in Wellington, New Zealand.

Fifty people were detained in Amsterdam for erecting a tent on a main road.

Protests by climate change activists are expected in some 60 cities over the next two weeks.

https://www.bbc.com/news/world-49959227
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ShortBrutishNasty

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Re: Extinction Rebellion
« Reply #360 on: October 07, 2019, 11:14:05 PM »
PPE... what a concept.

ShortBrutishNasty

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Re: Extinction Rebellion
« Reply #361 on: October 07, 2019, 11:18:33 PM »
Not going anywhere until the Makita Diamond Blade Cutoff Wheel arrives.....  If only I had balls like that guy....
« Last Edit: October 07, 2019, 11:25:54 PM by ShortBrutishNasty »

Jim Hunt

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Re: Extinction Rebellion
« Reply #362 on: October 14, 2019, 01:40:22 PM »
A recent "tweet" from Prof. Richard Pancost, Head of the School of Earth Sciences at Bristol University and Emeritus Director of the Cabot Institute:

https://twitter.com/rpancost/status/1183347552822976513

Quote
Proud to be a signatory to this. Some aspects of XR must improve - including its diversity and inclusion. But there is no doubt that the Climate Emergency demands radical action. And protests are essential to achieving that.

According to Reuters:

Quote
In a joint declaration, climate scientists, physicists, biologists, engineers and others from at least 20 countries broke with the caution traditionally associated with academia to side with peaceful protesters courting arrest from Amsterdam to Melbourne.

Reality is merely an illusion, albeit a very persistent one - Albert Einstein

nanning

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Re: Extinction Rebellion
« Reply #363 on: October 15, 2019, 05:39:06 PM »
To all the protesting hero's of XR who are arrested and maybe in prison: I wish you strenght and unity with your heroic contributions and you have my full respect.
"It is preoccupation with possessions, more than anything else, that prevents us from living freely and nobly" - Bertrand Russell
   Simple: minimize your possessions and be free and kind    It's just a mindset.       Refugees welcome

blumenkraft

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Re: Extinction Rebellion
« Reply #364 on: October 15, 2019, 06:42:12 PM »
+1
Refugees welcome

etienne

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Re: Extinction Rebellion
« Reply #365 on: October 15, 2019, 08:50:52 PM »
https://rebellion.earth/2019/10/14/rebel-daily-6/
Report of last weekend's events by XR.

ShortBrutishNasty

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Re: Extinction Rebellion
« Reply #366 on: October 16, 2019, 05:23:09 AM »

NeilT

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Re: Extinction Rebellion
« Reply #367 on: October 17, 2019, 11:01:09 AM »
Being right too soon is socially unacceptable.

Robert A. Heinlein

Jim Hunt

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Re: Extinction Rebellion
« Reply #368 on: October 17, 2019, 01:42:54 PM »
A big XR "own goal"?
Reality is merely an illusion, albeit a very persistent one - Albert Einstein

NeilT

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Re: Extinction Rebellion
« Reply #369 on: October 17, 2019, 03:48:55 PM »
It is a big problem in the whole thing. People will understand the problem and support moves to fix it.

But the second you start really screwing with people's lives, when those people have little option, sympathy goes out the window fast.

Then what exactly are they trying to prove?

FF cars, check
Flights, check

One of the largest and most heavily used public transport infrastructures which runs on Electricity in a country which is already in compliance with the Paris accord?

FAIL.

The message is supposed to be getting out of your fuel guzzling car and onto shared transport which runs on renewable energy.

"Own Goal" doesn't even begin to describe it.

All I can say is that if this continues in this way people are going to get hurt and those who get hurt will be the honest caring people, not those who organise XR.
Being right too soon is socially unacceptable.

Robert A. Heinlein

etienne

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Re: Extinction Rebellion
« Reply #370 on: October 17, 2019, 07:42:56 PM »
 One of the problems of modern times socual movements is that they refuse a clear leadership. This is probably related to the social media dynamic, but could also be related to the complexity of the issues. Civil righrs, apartheid, national Independence are concepts where leaders might be easier to find than climate change or social inequality.
I believe that this action was an error, hope that it will not be repeated and that some XR members will also communicate that idea. Non violent action makes it impossible to separate the action and the aim.

etienne

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Re: Extinction Rebellion
« Reply #371 on: October 17, 2019, 09:10:33 PM »
Greta retweeted an XR message against this morning action.
https://mobile.twitter.com/XRCroydon

NeilT

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Re: Extinction Rebellion
« Reply #372 on: October 17, 2019, 11:07:34 PM »
I don't know etienne.  Right at the beginning they blockaded trains which were entirely electric in a station which removed hundreds of thousands of vehicles from the city.

It will bear watching but the mood is changing.  From suffering tolerance to seething intolerance.

I did warn of the risks of switching the focus from science to politics. From what I hear my fears are emerging.

No glee here at all.  Just sadness.
Being right too soon is socially unacceptable.

Robert A. Heinlein

etienne

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Re: Extinction Rebellion
« Reply #373 on: October 18, 2019, 06:39:19 AM »
If I look at the Luxembourgish context, the only action of the government that is not an investment in energy efficiency or renewables is an increase of 0,01 Eur of gasoline liter, and 0,02 Eur for diesel. Many people are very frustraded and this is always a dangerous situation. Why don't they reduce speed limits on the roads, why can"t they increase the cost of flying... Because the economy and growth have a higher priority than climate, so the government prefers to compensate CO2. They are lucky that most people here think like them, and it is also why they have been elected, but it could bring some people to act in some not too smart ways.

Jim Hunt

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Re: Extinction Rebellion
« Reply #374 on: October 18, 2019, 01:42:03 PM »
This morning the Viscount Ridley and Julia Hartley-Brewer have been prattling on about the "hypocrisy" of XR. At ~50:00 minutes Matt exhorted Julia's loyal viewers to "stand up to the bullies", so I did:
 
https://twitter.com/jim_hunt/status/1185157156313677824
Reality is merely an illusion, albeit a very persistent one - Albert Einstein

etienne

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Re: Extinction Rebellion
« Reply #375 on: October 18, 2019, 04:16:52 PM »
Well, he didn't convince me. I agree that the XR movement is getting out of control, but I belive that this is also due to a lack of action on the political side. I have often found that climate policies look like peak oil policies because they only try to reduce long term fossil fuel consumption and don't look at the easy things that could be done directly. In a peak oil context, a SUV is not an issue because you always have the possibility to take public transportation if gasoline becomes too expensive. I am also surprised that he finds that there aren't more disasters than before. The huricane statistics I have seen seem to be clear. Also regarding maximum temperature, India seems to become less viable, I feel that climate change is not just for the Poles.

Shared Humanity

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Re: Extinction Rebellion
« Reply #376 on: October 18, 2019, 07:18:16 PM »
I agree that the XR movement is getting out of control...

I could not disagree more strongly. Young people don't want to live in a world where hundreds of millions die (perhaps billions) due to climate change. Given the stark fate they are facing, I'm thinking they need to up the pressure.

gerontocrat

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Re: Extinction Rebellion
« Reply #377 on: October 18, 2019, 07:52:31 PM »
This morning the Viscount Ridley and Julia Hartley-Brewer have been prattling on about the "hypocrisy" of XR. At ~50:00 minutes Matt exhorted Julia's loyal viewers to "stand up to the bullies", so I did:
 
https://twitter.com/jim_hunt/status/1185157156313677824
Dear Jim Quixote,

Being bored with windmills & the WUWT, you decided to tilt your lance against "Twin-set & Pearls" Julia and "I Broke the Bank" Ridley? Ripley being an advisor to one of Voldemort's spin doctors (the GWPF), that would suggest the Fragrant Julia is of like mind.

Stick a stake through their hearts, and just like Dracula, they will be back in yet another "Hammer Horror" movie before the blood on the stake is dry.

Ridley was educated at Eton. Eton alumni - Cameron, Johnson, Rees-Mogg, Ridley. Is Eton an asset to the UK?
_______________________________________________
Ridley chaired the UK bank Northern Rock until 2007, during which time the bank experienced the country's first bank run in 140 years. Ridley resigned, and the UK Government bailed out the bank, leading to the nationalization of Northern Rock. Ridley was responsible, according to parliament's Treasury select committee, for a “high-risk, reckless business strategy” which the bank was able to pursue as the result of a “substantial failure of regulation” by the state.

The family's got form ..

Uncle Nick - yes, educated(?) at Eton
"More importantly, he was the Cabinet Minister responsible for the introduction of the 'Poll tax' (formally known as the Community Charge), a policy that brought a standing ovation at the Conservative Party conference at which it was announced, and riots across the country when it was implemented.
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Jim Hunt

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Re: Extinction Rebellion
« Reply #378 on: October 19, 2019, 01:37:47 PM »
Stick a stake through their hearts, and just like Dracula, they will be back in yet another "Hammer Horror" movie before the blood on the stake is dry.

Which goes some way to supporting our initial hypothesis?

https://www.researchgate.net/project/Social-and-Political-Psychology-of-the-Ship-of-Fools-meme

Here's the next episode of the Hammer house of horror show:

http://GreatWhiteCon.info/2019/10/watts-up-with-arctic-sea-ice-thickness/#comment-294855

Quote
David Middleton is now regurgitating the old Skate/Seadragon surfacing at the North Pole stuff.
Reality is merely an illusion, albeit a very persistent one - Albert Einstein

rboyd

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Re: Extinction Rebellion
« Reply #379 on: October 27, 2019, 01:30:37 AM »
EXTINCTION REBELLION HAS A POLITICS PROBLEM On why it isn’t possible to find an apolitical solution to a political problem…: Current Affairs

Quote
“Beyond Politics” is a slogan at the center of Extinction Rebellion organizing: You can see it on posters, on flyers, on candy-colored flags. In this vein, one of the goals XR is agitating for is for the creation of an autonomous citizen’s assembly to shape climate policy. But there is another, broader aspect to this “beyond politics” stance as well. Seeking to distance itself from the failures of the “traditional environmental movement”—with its marches and its hippie vibes and its decades-long record of sounding the climate change alarm to no avail—XR presents itself as a movement not of professional protesters but of the people, of everyone. Parents can bring their children; workers can plug in their laptops at one of their solar-powered mobile office spaces and carry on spreadsheeting. As part of this bid to garner support from as varied a section of the population as possible, Extinction Rebellion avoids taking a stance on political issues beyond the environment. Although it’s the fastest-growing climate movement in the world—and one that has attracted endorsements from high-profile figures like Emma Thompson, Philip Pullman, Noam Chomsky, and Greta Thunberg—Extinction Rebellion makes no specific policy demands. Its goal of carbon neutrality by 2025 comes without prescriptions for how to get there, or proscriptions for how not to. Its plan to use citizens’ assemblies to cut through partisan deadlock and lead decision-making around ecological justice does not include a blueprint for what changes these assemblies need to make, or by what means.

Quote
Harrington’s message indicates XR’s belief that political discourse is not a means of shifting opinions (a way, for instance, of changing the percentage of people who might feel alienated by a certain topic) but fundamentally a problem to be sidestepped. Yet on Waterloo Bridge last spring, as I and other trainees sat on a ring of hay bales and listened to a rundown of what XR stood for, this refusal to engage with politics struck me as the possible downfall of the movement. After all, here we all were, listening to a discussion about environmental destruction without any inquiry into the economic engines that drive it. If I turned my neck just a little to the left, I could see the Gherkin, the Cheesegrater, and the Walkie Talkie—some of the iconic towers marking out the skyline of the City’s financial hub—winking in the last rays of the sunset. Against this backdrop, it seemed profoundly absurd not to bring up the doomed venture of infinite growth on a planet of ever-diminishing resources, or the way that the need to cut costs and remain competitive will always incentivize corporations to flout environmental concerns in their product designs, or the many other ways in which capitalism leads to environmental destruction. And yet we were instructed to think of XR as being “beyond politics.”

Quote
I do not think it is possible to find an apolitical solution to a political problem. More to the point, I do not believe that our current economic system is compatible with continued life on this planet. It is unrealistic and irresponsible to pretend that a proposed climate solution which keeps capitalism intact is any kind of solution at all. Put another way: There is no true green politics that is not a left politics.

Rather than allowing the group to remain gracefully above the fray of contemporary political clashes, XR’s unwillingness to openly take an anti-capitalist stance erodes the credibility of its position because such silence lends tacit support to the carbon-belching powers that be. At a certain point, the apolitical becomes indistinguishable from the reactionary. Such a failure on the part of XR to articulate a systemic critique of capitalism when their environmental commitments seemed to beg for it was at the root of my discomfort with the group’s adoption of the moniker “rebels” (just as some Hillary Clinton voters’ self-serious assertion that they are part of “the Resistance” just because they’ve made a few Cheeto jokes on Facebook has always struck me as ridiculous)

Quote
A further, less openly advertised aspect of XR’s embrace of the “beyond politics” principle is that it bans the creation of community groups organized explicitly around political identity. Community groups—small gatherings of “rebels” who meet regularly—are a key part of XR organizing, especially in the protest off-season. Many are based on geography, but others are based on affinities: There’s a group for Quakers, a group for Baroque musicians, and a group for people who want to make skeletons out of newspaper. Not long ago, a friend of mine affiliated with the London-based group Left Culture Club attempted to start an XR socialist subgroup and quickly incurred the ire of the central XR media team. In a phone call, he was told that such a move would contravene XR’s stated “beyond politics” stance but also make it more difficult to accomplish their strategic goals, which, the spokesperson argued, require the cooperation of big business. Yet in an official email encouraging people to join affinity groups, XR’s list of approved spin-offs included XR Police and XR Landlords. The fact that the group fails to see that these two positions are themselves inherently and inextricably political bespeaks the degree to which theoretical attempts at apolitical stances will invariably, in practice, favor those already in power

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There simply is no such thing as “beyond politics.” XR itself does not currently behave in a manner congruent with its stated “beyond politics,” and a climate movement that does not advocate radical economic and political change cannot possibly hope to grapple with the magnitude of the crisis that is now bearing down upon us. I don’t doubt that there are many—even a majority—of XR affiliates who align themselves with the left and who profess more radical beliefs than the organization itself. But the fact that such a major force in climate discourse today can stay mum about the relationship between capitalism and climate destruction smacks of denialism of another kind. XR has an unprecedented platform—and with that comes the responsibility to use it.

https://www.currentaffairs.org/2019/10/extinction-rebellion-has-a-politics-problem


blumenkraft

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Re: Extinction Rebellion
« Reply #380 on: October 27, 2019, 12:43:14 PM »
Guess what. All the other strategies have failed before.
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TerryM

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Re: Extinction Rebellion
« Reply #381 on: October 27, 2019, 03:08:42 PM »
rboyd
I fully understand why XR Police is nonsense, but what on earth is wrong with XR Landlords? Lots of people can't afford to purchase a residence & plenty more just don't want to be tied to a property.


I've been renting since 2004, but I've been a landlord since I was 17.
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rboyd

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Re: Extinction Rebellion
« Reply #382 on: October 27, 2019, 07:32:29 PM »
rboyd
I fully understand why XR Police is nonsense, but what on earth is wrong with XR Landlords? Lots of people can't afford to purchase a residence & plenty more just don't want to be tied to a property.

I've been renting since 2004, but I've been a landlord since I was 17.
Terry

They are making the point that XR's "non-political" stance is hypocritical, if you can have XR Landlords why not XR renters and XR workers? So called non-political movements simply end up supporting the economic and social status quo - the one that got us here.

PS: I personally have nothing against landlords!

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Re: Extinction Rebellion
« Reply #383 on: October 27, 2019, 07:53:45 PM »


They are making the point that XR's "non-political" stance is hypocritical, if you can have XR Landlords why not XR renters and XR workers? So called non-political movements simply end up supporting the economic and social status quo - the one that got us here.

PS: I personally have nothing against landlords!

What got humanity to this crisis isn't specifically capitalism.  Burning fossil fuels in general is what got us here.  The Communist countries were prodigious emitters of carbon dioxide, too.

There's a point of ideology being presented here, which I think is completely ahistorical.  That capitalism cannot adjust to an existential challenge, to change standard operating procedures in order to permit survival.  However, every capitalistic society, when facing war, has rapidly adjusted it's organization of economic activity to effectively and efficiently fight that war. 

I don't think there's anything intrinsic to capitalism that mandates use of fossil fuels for energy.  There is nothing intrinsic to capitalism that precludes dramatic and rapid change in the conduct of economic activity.

I'm not defending capitalism here.  It may (or may not) be a profound evil.  But I'm quite confident that if solving the existential problem of climate change requires first that capitalism be dismantled, then we are utterly doomed.  Capitalism is a tenacious, resilient beast.  We'd be well into another Great Dying before capitalism can be dismantled.

Capitalism certainly has had a role in how we got here.  But dismantling it is not a prerequisite for addressing climate change.  XR is quite right to put such questions aside in it's demands for urgent action.

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Re: Extinction Rebellion
« Reply #384 on: October 27, 2019, 08:36:00 PM »
I agree the problem isn't capitalism per se, it's the endless growth paradigm at the core of our current version of capitalism. What makes it even worse, is that this paradigm is dominant because it's most efficient way of growing concentrated wealth.

If XR doesn't demand something that leads to the deconcentration of wealth, like for instance a cap on individual wealth, it will go the way of OWS and the dodo.

Is it political to demand a cap on wealth? Is it political to demand limits?
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Re: Extinction Rebellion
« Reply #385 on: October 27, 2019, 10:59:15 PM »
I agree the problem isn't capitalism per se, it's the endless growth paradigm at the core of our current version of capitalism. What makes it even worse, is that this paradigm is dominant because it's most efficient way of growing concentrated wealth.

If XR doesn't demand something that leads to the deconcentration of wealth, like for instance a cap on individual wealth, it will go the way of OWS and the dodo.

Is it political to demand a cap on wealth? Is it political to demand limits?

I recommend people to study the history of philosophy to understand the step by step proces which lead to this modern, materialistic age we live in. It doesn't matter if it's any of the three political materialistic philosophies that we adhere to, fascism, marxism or liberalism, they are all materialistic and thus it was inevitable that adopting any of them would eventually lead to the destruction and annihilation of our habitat. Some might be slower than others in this destructive proces, but alas, the most materialistic ideology won(liberalism) because it could generate the most material and thus defeat the other two ideologies(fascism/marxism) in this struggle to be the dominant political philosophy of this modern age.

The whole of modernity is the problem. There is unfortunately no solution other than mass culllling of population, which is not going to happen.


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Re: Extinction Rebellion
« Reply #386 on: October 28, 2019, 08:37:47 PM »
The whole of modernity is the problem. There is unfortunately no solution other than mass culllling of population, which is not going to happen.

The brutal truth, you just have to look at the treatment of the environment by the Communist regimes of Russia and China to see it. I feel that we will drive down the techno-utopian road until the very end, with geo-engineering (first Solar Radiation Management probably, then more expensive options but very profitable for some). Of course, they will not deal with the many cascading crises inherent in exponential growth within a limited biosphere. Maybe we will even make real the Black Mirror episode of little robot bees to replace all the dead ones? Humanity (at least its elites) will fight to the very end with the kind of weapons we are used to using, an acceptance of limits is not an option.

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Re: Extinction Rebellion
« Reply #387 on: October 28, 2019, 09:41:28 PM »
I wonder how the Chinese system should be described. It is not liberalism, not fully capitalism, and not communist either, but I believe as materialist as we (EU and US) are. It is much more organised with some freedom in a limiting frame. Looks like a system with a coopted emperor. Right now it doesn't do better than others regarding climate change.

I wouldn't say that a philosophy won, maybe one is leader, but the real trend is overinflated ego and short terms thinking.

I recommend people to study the history of philosophy to understand the step by step proces which lead to this modern, materialistic age we live in. It doesn't matter if it's any of the three political materialistic philosophies that we adhere to, fascism, marxism or liberalism, they are all materialistic and thus it was inevitable that adopting any of them would eventually lead to the destruction and annihilation of our habitat. Some might be slower than others in this destructive proces, but alas, the most materialistic ideology won(liberalism) because it could generate the most material and thus defeat the other two ideologies(fascism/marxism) in this struggle to be the dominant political philosophy of this modern age.

The whole of modernity is the problem. There is unfortunately no solution other than mass culllling of population, which is not going to happen.



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Re: Extinction Rebellion
« Reply #388 on: October 28, 2019, 09:52:23 PM »
I wonder how the Chinese system should be described. It is not liberalism, not fully capitalism, and not communist either, but I believe as materialist as we (EU and US) are. It is much more organised with some freedom in a limiting frame. Looks like a system with a coopted emperor. Right now it doesn't do better than others regarding climate change.

I wouldn't say that a philosophy won, maybe one is leader, but the real trend is overinflated ego and short terms thinking.


China is an autocratic capitalist state run by technocrats with a veneer or 'socialism with chinese characteristics'. This model is THE model for the future of every nation.

Francis Fukuyama was wrong when he predicted the 'end of history' after the fall of the Soviet-Union. History went on as usual.

But then again AGW is going to be the (rightfull) boegiemen where the state is going to be curbing the little and rapidly vanishing freedom we have for the sake of security and control. Many globalist technocrats have written about this, Bertrand Russell, HG Wells, Carroll Quigly, Jaques Attali etc.


« Last Edit: October 28, 2019, 09:58:01 PM by apocalyps »

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Re: Extinction Rebellion
« Reply #389 on: October 29, 2019, 11:23:07 AM »
<snip>
the techno-utopian road

least its elites) will fight to the very end with the kind of weapons we are used to using, an acceptance of limits is not an option.

How on Earth can it be utopian? It is a techno-dystopian road. Except for the (very) rich of course. A minority.
Without an axe, a saw or large machinery humans cannot fell a tree.


I agree with your last sentence :)
poor people: many constraints concerning money, rights and morals that obstruct their freedom to act, to live how they want.

rich people: less money and rights constraints so more freedom to act but they will and can fight the constraints. On average the richer, the less morals.

elites and very rich people: don't want ANY obstruction to to what they like. No constraints, none. They work towards total freedom to do what they like. They have no morals and no conscience. Much agression and violence in these people.

No society, no country has ANY control over the bottom group of people. In many cases they even exert some control over governments.
This deeply insane group is driving our train over the cliff. Yes, Musk and Gates etc. too.

The poor people once had a powerful state and great public utilities. Then neo-liberalism broke down the state and the utilites. And unions etc.
"It is preoccupation with possessions, more than anything else, that prevents us from living freely and nobly" - Bertrand Russell
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