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Tom_Mazanec

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Re: Elections 2020 USA
« Reply #650 on: October 11, 2020, 06:12:23 PM »
It doesn't seem to me that Democrats try to game the system less than Republicans, or vice versa. Instead, it looks like it gets worse each time there is a new Administration, whether that administration is Republican or Democrat.
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oren

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Re: Elections 2020 USA
« Reply #651 on: October 11, 2020, 06:21:27 PM »
Quote
Can you imagine the hysteria that would ensue if Trump gave such a lunatic answer to a question that momentous?
Do you mean, for example, the question of whether he will accept the result of the election? A rather momentuous issue I would say.

wili

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Re: Elections 2020 USA
« Reply #652 on: October 11, 2020, 06:34:50 PM »
Tom is once again engaging in false equivalence

His behavior here and elsewhere is verging on that of a troll
"A force de chercher de bonnes raisons, on en trouve; on les dit; et après on y tient, non pas tant parce qu'elles sont bonnes que pour ne pas se démentir." Choderlos de Laclos "You struggle to come up with some valid reasons, then cling to them, not because they're good, but just to not back down."

Tom_Mazanec

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Re: Elections 2020 USA
« Reply #653 on: October 11, 2020, 07:10:18 PM »
Trump says we will have to see what happens to see if he will concede. Hillary tells Biden not to concede for any reason.
Dems don't want to concede. Reps don't want to concede. There is nothing false about a lot of people saying "not my president" when Trump won, after Fox News always called President Obama "Mr. Obama" during his administration.
Most of my life people who lost an election of their candidate accepted that loss as a fact. That is being increasingly called into question by members of both parties.
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wili

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Re: Elections 2020 USA
« Reply #654 on: October 11, 2020, 08:06:56 PM »
More false equivalence

HRC is talking about putting up a rigorous legal fight

Trump and co is talking about violence in the streets, illegal disruptions at election polls, and all sorts of other chicanery, including a literal refusal to commit to a peaceful transition of power

https://thehill.com/homenews/administration/517901-trump-refuses-to-commit-to-peaceful-transition-of-power

So one is all about violence, real and threatened, and one is about following legal processes.

Yet you, who claim to be so vigorously against all forms of violence, are bending over backwards to portray these two very different positions as basically equivalent...one has to wonder why
« Last Edit: October 11, 2020, 08:18:35 PM by wili »
"A force de chercher de bonnes raisons, on en trouve; on les dit; et après on y tient, non pas tant parce qu'elles sont bonnes que pour ne pas se démentir." Choderlos de Laclos "You struggle to come up with some valid reasons, then cling to them, not because they're good, but just to not back down."

oren

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Re: Elections 2020 USA
« Reply #655 on: October 11, 2020, 08:16:59 PM »
It is indeed false equivalence Tom. A private person not liking the election result and a president saying he might not accept the result.
« Last Edit: October 11, 2020, 11:21:46 PM by oren »

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Re: Elections 2020 USA
« Reply #656 on: October 11, 2020, 09:18:45 PM »
In the US, you can now get threats just for having the wrong yard sign:

Letter left at Frederick home in apparent attempt to intimidate voters
https://www.wbaltv.com/article/frederick-letter-left-at-home-apparent-attempt-to-intimidate-voters/34304969

"The letter warned, "If you are a Biden-Harris supporter, you will be targeted. We have a list of homes by your election signs. We will not comply or give anything up, especially our guns."

The writer threatens to shoot and kill former Arizona Rep. Gabby Giffords, who was shot and wounded in 2011. She's now a gun control advocate.

The writer threatens to beat Biden and rape Harris and execute both on national TV."

Paddy

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Re: Elections 2020 USA
« Reply #657 on: October 11, 2020, 10:50:41 PM »
To those on this forum from America: please be kind and respectful to those on the other side of the political divide, whether your guy wins or loses. At the end of the day, politics isn't worth doing wrong by your neighbour. 

Tor Bejnar

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Re: Elections 2020 USA
« Reply #658 on: October 11, 2020, 11:09:47 PM »
Quote
Fox News always called President Obama "Mr. Obama" during his administration.
Lets do a fact check:
Fox News Halftime Report
Published January 10, 2017
Mr. Obama would like to explain...
"Obama" occurs 24 times in the article: three times with "Mr.", once with "Barack", once with "President", six times as "ObamaCare" and 13 times as just "Obama".

Incidentally, "Bush" shows up three times, once as "George W. Bush" and twice as "Bush".

Published November 24, 2014
Obama: Americans want 'new car smell' in 2016
"Obama" occurs 9 times in the article: once with "President", once with "President Barack", seven times just "Obama" and never with a "Mr."

Therefore, I'll say that Fox News sometimes identified President Obama as "Mr."
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Tom_Mazanec

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Re: Elections 2020 USA
« Reply #659 on: October 11, 2020, 11:34:07 PM »
Well, the Right has almost all the guns, allegedly.
If Biden wins, do you think they will attempt violence? Have to do it without me, I don't have a gun and could not shoot at a person if I did.
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Re: Elections 2020 USA
« Reply #660 on: October 11, 2020, 11:42:11 PM »
Quote
Fox News always called President Obama "Mr. Obama" during his administration.
Lets do a fact check:
Fox News Halftime Report
Published January 10, 2017
Mr. Obama would like to explain...
"Obama" occurs 24 times in the article: three times with "Mr.", once with "Barack", once with "President", six times as "ObamaCare" and 13 times as just "Obama".

Incidentally, "Bush" shows up three times, once as "George W. Bush" and twice as "Bush".

Published November 24, 2014
Obama: Americans want 'new car smell' in 2016
"Obama" occurs 9 times in the article: once with "President", once with "President Barack", seven times just "Obama" and never with a "Mr."

Therefore, I'll say that Fox News sometimes identified President Obama as "Mr."
Fox news just called trump Mr Trump not sure what that means;

Tor Bejnar

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Re: Elections 2020 USA
« Reply #661 on: October 12, 2020, 12:16:18 AM »
The Supreme Court started with 6 justices.
Decreased to 5 in 1801 (effective upon retirements, etc.), but returned to 6 in 1802 before it actually dropped.
Then 7 in 1807, 9 in 1837, and 10 in 1863.
Decreased to 7 in 1866 (effective upon retirements, etc.), but only dropped to 8 justices, as it was increased to 9 in 1869 where it has remained.
In 1937 Roosevelt (FDR) tried to increase the number to 'up to 15' (dependent on the age of existing justices) but Congress didn't go along with this idea of his.  (But with 3 terms plus a few months of his 4th term as president, he nominated 8 of the associate justices and the one 'survivor' from a pre-FDR court was elevated to chief justice by him.)

So, "packing" and "unpacking" the court has been done several times, sometimes with overt political intentions.
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Tor Bejnar

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Re: Elections 2020 USA
« Reply #662 on: October 12, 2020, 12:22:16 AM »
A suitable response Joe Biden might use, with regard to questions about packing the Supreme Court, was offered by a Minnesotan on Electoral-Vote.com:
Quote
The president can't "pack the court." According to the Constitution, the president can only nominate justices when openings occur. The current number of nine is not in the Constitution, it's a result of a law passed by Congress. If Congress passes another law that increases that number, then President Biden would fulfill his Constitutional duty and nominate justices to fill any openings. But I promise you, a Democratic-held congress will only pass such a bill if the American people support it, which may well happen if the court starts legislating from the bench. If the Court restricts the inalienable Constitutional rights of our citizens on issues like abortion, gay marriage, and voting, the American people will demand action. In that regard, the answer to your question will ultimately be answered by the current justices of the Supreme Court.
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Tom_Mazanec

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Re: Elections 2020 USA
« Reply #663 on: October 12, 2020, 01:37:26 AM »
Suppose presidents could pack the court. FDR appoints 6. Eisenhower appoints 12. Kennedy appoints 24. Nixon appoints 48. Carter points 96. Reagan appoints 192. Clinton appoints 384. Bush Jr appoints 768. Obama appoints 1,536. Trump appoints 3,072. Biden appoints 6,144. By 2021 the SCOTUS is meeting in Yankee Stadium.
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Tor Bejnar

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Re: Elections 2020 USA
« Reply #664 on: October 12, 2020, 02:06:58 AM »
From the September 22 Electoral-Vote.com came this
Quote
... Christopher Jon Sprigman, writing for Slate, proposes that Court-packing is not only politically difficult and risky, it's also unnecessary. He directs our attention to Article III, Section 2 of the Constitution, which reads:
Quote
In all Cases affecting Ambassadors, other public Ministers and Consuls, and those in which a State shall be a Party, the Supreme Court shall have original Jurisdiction. In all the other Cases before mentioned, the Supreme Court shall have appellate Jurisdiction, both as to Law and Fact, with such Exceptions, and under such Regulations as the Congress shall make.
In other words, there is a constitutional basis for significantly clipping the Supreme Court's wings when it comes to judicial review. And since judicial review itself has no constitutional basis, having been claimed by John Marshall by fiat in Marbury v. Madison, Congress would surely triumph if they tried it. This is not the sort of thing that would excite the Democratic base, but if doing it ends up saving the things that liberals care about (Obamacare, abortion rights, voting rights legislation, etc.), then the base will presumably come around. (Z)
In support of what Tom just wrote, Sprigman wrote in his article,
Quote
Another problem with court packing is that we’re not playing one-move chess here: there will be a tit-for-tat response.
Therefore the brilliance of a legislative solution to end the Supreme Court's 'fiddling' tendencies.
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Tom_Mazanec

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Re: Elections 2020 USA
« Reply #665 on: October 12, 2020, 11:27:39 AM »
The failure of the Constitution to explicitly numerate the number of seats in the SCOTUS is just another proof that it is a human document, not a Divine one.
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Tom_Mazanec

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Re: Elections 2020 USA
« Reply #666 on: October 12, 2020, 12:02:10 PM »
Americans Increasingly Believe Violence is Justified if the Other Side Wins
https://www.politico.com/news/magazine/2020/10/01/political-violence-424157?fbclid=IwAR3NqOZVRs1gF5nO0KT-FZNQo-fk9aJb1xs_kR3MW1GpBN3NkGwS7Z8umAY
Quote
At the presidential debate this week, the Republican candidate voiced his concern about political violence—left-wing political violence. And the Democratic candidate likewise voiced concern about political violence—right-wing political violence.

They were both right.
There is a note that the exact statistics in the article are being updated (sorry it took me so long to find this article) but for the stats they had at the time, for example:

Quote
These numbers are even higher among the most ideological partisans. Of Democrats who identify as “very liberal,” 26 percent said there would be “a great deal” of justification for violence if their candidate loses the presidency compared to 7 percent of those identifying as simply “liberal.” Of Republicans who identify as “very conservative,” 16 percent said they believe there would be “a great deal” of justification for violence if the GOP candidate loses compared to 7 percent of those identifying as simply “conservative.” This means the ideological extremes of each party are two to four times more apt to see violence as justified than their party’s mainstream members.
These percentages represent millions of Americans, on both sides of the divide. If even a few of these carry out violence it could trigger more violence. As they conclude:
Quote
We do not pull this alarm lightly. The decisions we make over the next few months are hugely consequential. If we fall into a cycle of violence, the consequences for America’s future as a democracy will be dire.
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wili

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Re: Elections 2020 USA
« Reply #667 on: October 12, 2020, 02:12:29 PM »
Belief in what would be justified is a very hypothetical question

As you have pointed out, it's the right that has most of the guns. So if anyone intends to do severe violence, they are the ones with the capacity. And not only that, but they have been the ones, white supremacists in particular, who have done nearly all the actual violence wrt shootings.

And you failed to point out that the article you cited had a post script basically saying that the figures were wrong and overstated:

Quote
Since this article published, we’ve received new polling data that strongly suggests the trend is not as large as originally thought. On the question of justifying violence, new data from the same source as the 2017 to 2019 trend suggests there has not been a significant shift in attitudes since December 2019...

« Last Edit: October 12, 2020, 02:30:06 PM by wili »
"A force de chercher de bonnes raisons, on en trouve; on les dit; et après on y tient, non pas tant parce qu'elles sont bonnes que pour ne pas se démentir." Choderlos de Laclos "You struggle to come up with some valid reasons, then cling to them, not because they're good, but just to not back down."

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Re: Elections 2020 USA
« Reply #668 on: October 12, 2020, 03:16:30 PM »
Yes, more gun-related violence has been perpetuated by the right.  The left prefers other means.  Neither is acceptable.

Tom_Mazanec

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Re: Elections 2020 USA
« Reply #669 on: October 12, 2020, 03:35:58 PM »
Just curious, Walrus:
What means do the Left use?
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The Walrus

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Re: Elections 2020 USA
« Reply #670 on: October 12, 2020, 06:02:06 PM »
Just curious, Walrus:
What means do the Left use?

While some gun violence does exist, there is a greater frequency of arson, looting, and direct physical encounters. 

Tor Bejnar

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Re: Elections 2020 USA
« Reply #671 on: October 12, 2020, 06:09:48 PM »
Specifically, the means that are not acceptable.
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Tom_Mazanec

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Re: Elections 2020 USA
« Reply #672 on: October 12, 2020, 06:19:11 PM »
Anybody vote and/or campaign for Howie Hawkins (Green)? Why or why not?
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bbr2315

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Re: Elections 2020 USA
« Reply #673 on: October 13, 2020, 02:07:50 AM »
Who knew, doubling down on Hilary 2016 strategy was a losing hand?

https://targetearly.targetsmart.com/index.html

White non-college voter numerical lead, 2016 vs 2020 early voting

PA: +13K vs +17K
OH: +9K vs +22K
MI: +20K vs +125K
WI: +29K vs +95K
MN: +15K vs +64K
NC: +8K vs -64K
VA: +3k vs -175K
TX: +2K to -17K
GA: -2K to -120K

While the swing to Trump has been +238K in the first five states the swing to Biden has been +388K in the latter four states. This is probably enough to flip MN to red and possibly enough to flip NC to blue. TX is not going to flip, and the chance of GA flipping is also minimal though it is perhaps barely plausible.

But more importantly this shows that even WITH the likelihood of maintaining or higher national turnout vis a vis 2016 and the popular vote, Biden's gains are coming in states where he would have already won or, worse, where he WILL NOT WIN.

The early voting numbers are, IMO, total affirmation that a Trump landslide is impending at the electoral college even IF Biden maintains or improves on H's popular vote margin!

The turnout in NV and NM is less indicative but also leaning Trump IMO, it will be interesting to see the vote changes numerically vs 2016 in states like NY and HI as well though I suspect the seismic shifts underway in both of those electorates, if they are indeed underway as I believe, will not be revealed until Election Night.

Paddy

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Re: Elections 2020 USA
« Reply #674 on: October 13, 2020, 02:34:12 PM »
What happens if:

(a) Biden wins the popular vote by a much wider margin than Hilary (eg with the 10% gap shown by the polling average, so maybe 52% : 42% with the rest third party) but Trump edges to victory in the electoral college? Beyond the obvious outcome of a second term of this chaos, a lot of people are going to be left feeling thoroughly disenfranchised.

Or (b) Trump appears to be winning early on on election night, but Biden is the one to end up with a narrow victory as the postal votes come in? Similar issue of the sentiment of disenfranchisement, just on the other side.

Or (c) First (a) appears to be happening, then (b) as the eventual outcome?

None of these seem all that statistically improbable.

greylib

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Re: Elections 2020 USA
« Reply #675 on: October 13, 2020, 02:49:02 PM »
What happens if:

(a) Biden wins the popular vote by a much wider margin than Hilary (eg with the 10% gap shown by the polling average, so maybe 52% : 42% with the rest third party) but Trump edges to victory in the electoral college? Beyond the obvious outcome of a second term of this chaos, a lot of people are going to be left feeling thoroughly disenfranchised.

Or (b) Trump appears to be winning early on on election night, but Biden is the one to end up with a narrow victory as the postal votes come in? Similar issue of the sentiment of disenfranchisement, just on the other side.

Or (c) First (a) appears to be happening, then (b) as the eventual outcome?

None of these seem all that statistically improbable.
Whatever happens, the lawyers are going to make a lot of money. In fact, they're probably already making it, with both parties playing "what-if".
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Tom_Mazanec

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Re: Elections 2020 USA
« Reply #676 on: October 13, 2020, 03:29:41 PM »
Back in 2016, I voted for Trump but expected Hillary to win.
So I watched the election on Fox News, since they expected Trump to win and I wanted the schadenfreude of seeing their cognitive dissonance and meltdown.
If I had known Trump would win, I would have watched MSNBC for the mirror image reason.
This year I don't even have cable, and I don't expect to know the winner on Tuesday (or Wednesday, or Thursday, or...). I will probably find out by reading this thread, if my cousin doesn't tell me in our daily morning phone call.
EDIT:
Paddy - my personal daydream (or nightmare) is seeing the election decided by a faithless elector.
That would set the weasels loose in the henhouse!
« Last Edit: October 13, 2020, 04:54:46 PM by Tom_Mazanec »
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Tom_Mazanec

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Re: Elections 2020 USA
« Reply #677 on: October 13, 2020, 04:56:17 PM »
Don't Let the Media Win This Election
https://www.realclearpolitics.com/articles/2020/10/12/dont_let_the_media_win_this_election.html
Quote
Pundits often claim that the 2020 election will be a referendum on Donald Trump, but that is not the case. It should now be apparent — if it wasn’t already — that the upcoming election is a referendum on the media, and their dangerous role as self-appointed arbiters of the truth. And if the media wins, Katie bar the door.

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Tor Bejnar

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Re: Elections 2020 USA
« Reply #678 on: October 13, 2020, 06:26:46 PM »
The U.S. Constitution sort of makes the press the "arbiters of the truth."

First Amendment:
Quote
Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the Government for a redress of grievances.
Read more at Constitution Annotated.

From Wikipedia:
'First' draft of this amendment read:
Quote
The civil rights of none shall be abridged on account of religious belief or worship, nor shall any national religion be established, nor shall the full and equal rights of conscience be in any manner, or on any pretext, infringed. The people shall not be deprived or abridged of their right to speak, to write, or to publish their sentiments; and the freedom of the press, as one of the great bulwarks of liberty, shall be inviolable. The people shall not be restrained from peaceably assembling and consulting for their common good; nor from applying to the Legislature by petitions, or remonstrances, for redress of their grievances.
Note: "as one of the great bulwarks of liberty."  There wasn't any debate in that first Congress about this wording, apparently; they just wanted it to be shorter.

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wili

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Re: Elections 2020 USA
« Reply #679 on: October 13, 2020, 06:45:42 PM »
Wal wrote: "...arson, looting..."

You do know that the guy that started the arson in Minneapolis was a rightwing white supremacist, right?

And looting is not a political act. It is an act of opportunity, when there is chaos, whites, blacks and others, especially in poor areas, take the opportunity to get some, often much needed, supplies.

The term 'looting' itself, by the way, has been shown to be racially loaded, since during Katrina reporters called it 'looting' when blacks were going into damages stores to get supplies, but called it 'resourcefulness' when whites were filmed doing the same thing
"A force de chercher de bonnes raisons, on en trouve; on les dit; et après on y tient, non pas tant parce qu'elles sont bonnes que pour ne pas se démentir." Choderlos de Laclos "You struggle to come up with some valid reasons, then cling to them, not because they're good, but just to not back down."

wili

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Re: Elections 2020 USA
« Reply #680 on: October 13, 2020, 06:49:26 PM »
As far as who is trying to 'game the system' more, and who is willing to use violence to do so, note:

https://www.businessinsider.com/armed-groups-planning-to-monitor-polling-sites-on-election-day-2020-10

Quote
Far-right groups are planning to patrol polling sites on Election Day, some of them armed, causing experts to worry about the possibility of violent clashes and voter intimidation...

A QAnon-affiliated group has also been talking on Telegram, describing "heavily armed MAGA patriots" preparing for Election Day...

Cassie Miller, a senior researcher with the Southern Poverty Law Center, told the Times that "chances are really high that we're going to see militia members, armed groups, or Trump supporters who are armed at the polls."

"Not only are these people willing to participate in voter intimidation, but they're hoping to create this chaotic moment," Miller said. "There's an unwillingness to accept anything but a Trump victory."

By the way, less (directly) violent voter suppression is happening right now, with mostly black voters having to wait in lines for hours to vote early in Georgia. Few people in predominantly white areas have to wait more than a few minutes to vote in the US
"A force de chercher de bonnes raisons, on en trouve; on les dit; et après on y tient, non pas tant parce qu'elles sont bonnes que pour ne pas se démentir." Choderlos de Laclos "You struggle to come up with some valid reasons, then cling to them, not because they're good, but just to not back down."

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Re: Elections 2020 USA
« Reply #681 on: October 13, 2020, 07:42:52 PM »
Wal wrote: "...arson, looting..."

You do know that the guy that started the arson in Minneapolis was a rightwing white supremacist, right?

And looting is not a political act. It is an act of opportunity, when there is chaos, whites, blacks and others, especially in poor areas, take the opportunity to get some, often much needed, supplies.

The term 'looting' itself, by the way, has been shown to be racially loaded, since during Katrina reporters called it 'looting' when blacks were going into damages stores to get supplies, but called it 'resourcefulness' when whites were filmed doing the same thing

No one has a monopoly on arson, looting, or gun violence.  Do you believe that the left is more likely to resort to gun violence than the right?

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Re: Elections 2020 USA
« Reply #682 on: October 13, 2020, 09:43:09 PM »
Severed Cable Takes Out Virginia Voter Site On Registration Deadline
https://arstechnica.com/tech-policy/2020/10/severed-cable-takes-out-virginia-voter-site-on-registration-deadline/

Today is the last day to register to vote in the commonwealth of Virginia, so of course the official website for updating or managing voter registration is offline. Unlike in Florida, however, Virginia's site did not crash from high traffic but instead was rendered inaccessible because a vital fiber connecting the state's digital infrastructure was physically cut.

... "A fiber cut near Rt. 10 in Chester near the Commonwealth Enterprise Solutions Center (CESC) is impacting data circuits and virtual private network (VPN) connectivity for multiple Commonwealth agencies," the Virginia Information Technologies Agency wrote in a tweet, adding, "Technicians are on site and working to repair the cut; updates will be provided as work progresses."

https://twitter.com/VITAagency/status/1316000866244218882

The severed cable affects not only voter registration, but also early in-person voting—underway across Virginia since September 18—in some jurisdictions because election officials use network-connected tablets to look up and verify voter information. Several other state systems have also been affected by the outage, including DMV operations, unemployment systems, and Virginia's COVID-19 dashboard and health information.

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Pentagon Leaders Reject Calls for Militarized Election Season
https://www.defenseone.com/policy/2020/10/pentagon-leaders-reject-calls-militarized-election-season/169195/

Senior Pentagon leaders are seeking to tamp down fears and demands that the military will be called upon to handle any election-related chaos in November and beyond.

The D.C. National Guard has received no requests from other federal agencies related to security or potential unrest surrounding the 2020 election, Army Secretary Ryan McCarthy said on Tuesday.

“We support law enforcement,” Army Secretary McCarthy said Tuesday. ”We don’t police American streets.”

McCarthy’s remarks come just days after Joint Chiefs Chairman Gen. Mark Milley insisted in an interview with NPR that there is “zero” role for the military in the event the Nov. 3 election results are contested.

Concerns over President Trump’s militarized response to the protests have oxidized with related concerns that there may be civil unrest no matter what the outcome of the Nov. 3 election. Trump supporters, some armed and dressed as paramilitary militia, have appeared at protests nationwide. During the first presidential debate, Trump called on supporters to act as election watchers next month, prompting fears of voter intimidation and violent standoffs at polling places. Last week, the Washington Post reported that Atlas Aegis, a private military contractor, was recruiting special operations forces veterans to conduct election security at Minnesota polls against the wishes of state law enforcement.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/politics/private-security-minnesota-election/2020/10/09/89766964-0987-11eb-991c-be6ead8c4018_story.html
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vox_mundi

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Re: Elections 2020 USA
« Reply #683 on: October 14, 2020, 12:32:59 PM »
US Militias Forge Alliances With Conspiracy Theorists Ahead of Election
https://www.theguardian.com/world/2020/oct/14/armed-militias-conspiracy-theorists-anti-vaxxers-red-pill-expo

Armed militia groups are forging alliances in the final stages of the US presidential election with conspiracy theorists and anti-vaxxers who claim the coronavirus pandemic is a hoax, intensifying concerns that trouble could be brewing ahead of election day.

Leading advocates of anti-government and anti-science propaganda came together at the weekend, joined by the founder of one of the largest militia groups. The rare connection occurred at the Red Pill Expo, a conference convened on Jekyll Island, Georgia – a symbolic location as it is the birthplace of the US Federal Reserve, a popular bogey figure for conspiracy theorists

The summit, staged indoors in front of a packed and maskless audience of about 350, was headlined by Stewart Rhodes, president of the Oath Keepers. The militia, which turned up menacingly at several Black Lives Matter (BLM) protests over the summer and has acted as a vigilante squad at numerous Donald Trump campaign rallies, has links to 25,000 current or past members, mostly military or police veterans.

Rhodes aroused the crowd of “Red Pillers”, as they called themselves, with incendiary language. He denounced BLM as a “communist front” and encouraged attendees to seek training in firearms and militia activity as the election approaches.

“You are your own self-defense,” he said. “You must organize yourselves in the next 30 days in your towns and counties. We have members in every state in the union and we are standing them up right now.”

Rhodes said the turbulence around “radical left” protests had brought “a flood of special warfare operatives into the Oath Keepers”. He cited former navy Seals and special force personnel from Fort Bragg, the US army garrison in North Carolina.
“There are three classes of people: those who see. Those who see when they are shown. Those who do not see.” ― Leonardo da Vinci

Insensible before the wave so soon released by callous fate. Affected most, they understand the least, and understanding, when it comes, invariably arrives too late

wili

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Re: Elections 2020 USA
« Reply #684 on: October 14, 2020, 08:51:03 PM »
"Do you believe that the left is more likely to resort to gun violence than the right?"

No. What an odd question. Perhaps you missed the study that found that, at least up to this summer, right wing white suppremacists were responsible for hundreds of deadly shootings over the last couple decades, while 'antifa' was responsible for none.

Since then, there has indeed been one shooting by a self identified 'antifa' activist. But to take the fact that there are deadly shootings from both sides as evidence that both are equally responsible, in spite of the vast disparity in actual shooting, is again participating in false equivalence.
"A force de chercher de bonnes raisons, on en trouve; on les dit; et après on y tient, non pas tant parce qu'elles sont bonnes que pour ne pas se démentir." Choderlos de Laclos "You struggle to come up with some valid reasons, then cling to them, not because they're good, but just to not back down."

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Re: Elections 2020 USA
« Reply #685 on: October 14, 2020, 11:35:04 PM »
"Do you believe that the left is more likely to resort to gun violence than the right?"

No. What an odd question. Perhaps you missed the study that found that, at least up to this summer, right wing white suppremacists were responsible for hundreds of deadly shootings over the last couple decades, while 'antifa' was responsible for none.

Since then, there has indeed been one shooting by a self identified 'antifa' activist. But to take the fact that there are deadly shootings from both sides as evidence that both are equally responsible, in spite of the vast disparity in actual shooting, is again participating in false equivalence.
The left has ongoing violent riots in Portland and Seattle and held violent riots in many other cities including my own for much of this summer. Many were shot, some were killed. A Trump supporter was shot by an Antifa security guard the other day in Denver.

So.... pretending the violence is one sided is kind of ridiculous especially when the majority is actually coming from the left.

The Walrus

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Re: Elections 2020 USA
« Reply #686 on: October 14, 2020, 11:42:09 PM »
"Do you believe that the left is more likely to resort to gun violence than the right?"

No. What an odd question. Perhaps you missed the study that found that, at least up to this summer, right wing white suppremacists were responsible for hundreds of deadly shootings over the last couple decades, while 'antifa' was responsible for none.

Since then, there has indeed been one shooting by a self identified 'antifa' activist. But to take the fact that there are deadly shootings from both sides as evidence that both are equally responsible, in spite of the vast disparity in actual shooting, is again participating in false equivalence.

I agree.  That is why I posed that question in response to your previous post.  Just because a right winger started a fire does not make both sides equal in that respect either.

wili

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Re: Elections 2020 USA
« Reply #687 on: October 15, 2020, 05:07:19 PM »
This is getting ridiculous, so I should probably quit. You claimed above that violence on the left takes the form of arson and looting, but you have provided no evidence of it.

(Looting is largely a non-political act, and too many people were involved, and not enough caught, to be able to accurately characterize their political dispositions and motivations anyway, so I will set that one aside for now)

While there is definitely a number of arsonists who are self-described white supremacists and boogaloo boys, there is no evidence of people with a similarly strong, developed leftist ideology who have been starting fires in Minneapolis that I am aware of. Just young kids mad at the cops. Anger is not an ideology.

(And I note, again, that only one person accused of arson in Minneapolis was actually from Minneapolis...we did not burn down our own city, as many seem to assume)

So there is lots of evidence that people with rightwing and white-racist ideologies have been shooting (and plan to shoot, and kidnap, and assassinate...) a lot of people, and that they have started a number of major fires during riots, there is not much evidence that a lot of that kind of violence is coming from leftist ideologues.

So, if you claim to be against violence, please join Tom in strongly condemning right wing violence, since that is where most of it is coming from 

"A force de chercher de bonnes raisons, on en trouve; on les dit; et après on y tient, non pas tant parce qu'elles sont bonnes que pour ne pas se démentir." Choderlos de Laclos "You struggle to come up with some valid reasons, then cling to them, not because they're good, but just to not back down."

The Walrus

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Re: Elections 2020 USA
« Reply #688 on: October 15, 2020, 08:39:37 PM »
I do join Tom in condemning right wing violence.  I also condemn the growing trend of left wing violence.  I do not pawn it off as just people venting anger.

https://www.google.com/amp/s/amp.cnn.com/cnn/2020/09/16/us/far-left-social-media-violent-messages-trnd/index.html

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Re: Elections 2020 USA
« Reply #689 on: October 16, 2020, 12:45:28 AM »
Yes, left wing violence (what there is of it) is abhorrent.
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Ktb

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Re: Elections 2020 USA
« Reply #690 on: October 16, 2020, 05:07:36 AM »
Has anybody watched the town halls?
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Re: Elections 2020 USA
« Reply #691 on: October 16, 2020, 05:13:57 PM »
Yes, left wing violence (what there is of it) is abhorrent.

Agreed.  Many Americans fear threatened from both extremes.

https://today.yougov.com/topics/politics/articles-reports/2020/09/29/america-speaks-are-they-concerned-about-threat-dom

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Re: Elections 2020 USA
« Reply #692 on: October 20, 2020, 01:53:11 AM »
There is a poll for election watchers ...
Recent polls show Joe Biden leading Donald Trump by 6-13 points (I've heard of bigger spreads).  What will be the spread after all most ballots are counted? 

The more people voting (in this poll) the better!  No nationality excluded.  No incarceration record too severe.
Click on the bold link above ("Quote ...")
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Re: Elections 2020 USA
« Reply #693 on: October 20, 2020, 09:22:07 PM »
McRaven Endorses Biden
October 20, 2020 at 3:10 pm EDT in Taegan Goddard's Political Wire

Retired Navy Adm. William McRaven explains in the Wall Street Journal why he voted for Joe Biden.
Quote
This week I went to the polls in Texas. Truth be told, I am a pro-life, pro-Second Amendment, small-government, strong-defense and a national-anthem-standing conservative. But, I also believe that black lives matter, that the Dreamers deserve a path to citizenship, that diversity and inclusion are essential to our national success, that education is the great equalizer, that climate change is real and that the First Amendment is the cornerstone of our democracy. Most important, I believe that America must lead in the world with courage, conviction and a sense of honor and humility.

If we remain indifferent to our role in the world, if we retreat from our obligation to our citizens and our allies and if we fail to choose the right leader, then we will pay the highest price for our neglect and shortsightedness.
Hear hear!
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Tor Bejnar

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Re: Elections 2020 USA
« Reply #694 on: October 20, 2020, 09:24:40 PM »
Quote
Utah Candidates Appear Together In Ad

October 20, 2020 at 2:20 pm EDT By Taegan Goddard 52 Comments

Utah gubernatorial candidates Spencer Cox (R) and Chris Peterson (D) appeared together in a joint ad to call for civility among voters.
This is the very next article in Political wire. Hear, Hear!
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vox_mundi

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Re: Elections 2020 USA
« Reply #695 on: October 26, 2020, 07:55:55 AM »
Republicans closely resemble autocratic parties in Hungary and Turkey - study
https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2020/oct/26/republican-party-autocratic-hungary-turkey-study-trump
https://www.v-dem.net/en/data/data/v-party-dataset/

Swedish university finds ‘dramatic shift’ in GOP under Trump, shunning democratic norms and encouraging violence

The Republican party has become dramatically more illiberal in the past two decades and now more closely resembles ruling parties in autocratic societies than its former centre-right equivalents in Europe, according to a new international study.

Report: https://www.v-dem.net/media/filer_public/b6/55/b6553f85-5c5d-45ec-be63-a48a2abe3f62/briefing_paper_9.pdf

In a significant shift since 2000, the GOP has taken to demonising and encouraging violence against its opponents, adopting attitudes and tactics comparable to ruling nationalist parties in Hungary, India, Poland and Turkey.

The shift has both led to and been driven by the rise of Donald Trump.

By contrast the Democratic party has changed little in its attachment to democratic norms, and in that regard has remained similar to centre-right and centre-left parties in western Europe. Their principal difference is the approach to the economy.

Anna Lührmann, V-Dem’s deputy director, said the Republican transformation had been “certainly the most dramatic shift in an established democracy”.

V-Dem’s 'illiberalism index' shows Republican party has retreated from upholding democratic norms

The study, published on Monday, shows the party has followed a similar trajectory to Fidesz, which under Viktor Orbán has evolved from a liberal youth movement into an authoritarian party that has made Hungary the first non-democracy in the European Union.

India’s Bharatiya Janata Party (BJP) has been transformed in similar ways under Narendra Modi, as has the Justice and Development Party (AKP) in Turkey under Recep Tayyip Erdoğan and the Law and Justice party in Poland. Trump and his administration have sought to cultivate close ties to the leadership of those countries.

“We’ve seen similar shifts in parties in other countries where the quality of democracy has declined in recent years, where democracy has been eroding,” Lührmann said. “It fits very well into the pattern of parties that erode democracy once they’re in power.”

“The demonisation of opponents – that’s clearly a factor that has shifted a lot when it comes to the Republican party, as well as the encouragement of political violence,” she said, adding that the change has been driven in large part from the top.

“We have several quotes from Trump, that show how he has encouraged supporters to use violence against either journalists or political opponents.”

“There are three classes of people: those who see. Those who see when they are shown. Those who do not see.” ― Leonardo da Vinci

Insensible before the wave so soon released by callous fate. Affected most, they understand the least, and understanding, when it comes, invariably arrives too late