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wili

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Re: Elections 2020 USA
« Reply #900 on: November 10, 2020, 11:25:20 PM »
this is how bizarre it has gotten in the US:

Georgia Republican just elected to the US House of Representatives are demanding that the (Republican) state attorney general  "investigate claims of fraud (still without any evidence) before certifying the results of the election"

Which prompted the following questions from Politico's congressional bureau chief, John Bresnahan:

• Members-elect are asking for an investigation into the election in which they were elected?

• Are they saying they’re not members-elect or there should be questions about it?

• Are they saying they’re not members-elect or there should be questions about it?

and finally, simply

• Huh?

https://www.rawstory.com/2020/11/georgia-republicans-cornered-by-3-incisive-questions-about-voter-fraud-from-politico-editor/
"A force de chercher de bonnes raisons, on en trouve; on les dit; et après on y tient, non pas tant parce qu'elles sont bonnes que pour ne pas se démentir." Choderlos de Laclos "You struggle to come up with some valid reasons, then cling to them, not because they're good, but just to not back down."

sidd

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Re: Elections 2020 USA
« Reply #901 on: November 11, 2020, 06:28:54 AM »
Re: whether they regularly print outright lies

Yes, quite. Always.

Gulf of Tonkin. Church report. Mighty Wurlitzer.  Kuwaiti babys thrown outta ventilators. Wen Ho Lee. Iraq WMD. Suppress Risen on NSA story in 2004.

Thats just off the top of my head.

Re: bizzare way

Mmmm. McConnell needs boots on the gound to drive turnout in a runoff. Trump can deliver that.

sidd

Tom_Mazanec

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Re: Elections 2020 USA
« Reply #902 on: November 11, 2020, 11:50:19 AM »
sidd:
How far back do the outright lies go?
I suspect a couple centuries at least.

wili

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Re: Elections 2020 USA
« Reply #903 on: November 11, 2020, 12:01:45 PM »
Military official on massive firings at pentagon just before what is supposed to be a peaceful transfer of power:

"These are dictator moves."

https://www.cnn.com/2020/11/11/politics/donald-trump-joe-biden-transition/index.html
"A force de chercher de bonnes raisons, on en trouve; on les dit; et après on y tient, non pas tant parce qu'elles sont bonnes que pour ne pas se démentir." Choderlos de Laclos "You struggle to come up with some valid reasons, then cling to them, not because they're good, but just to not back down."

vox_mundi

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Re: Elections 2020 USA
« Reply #904 on: November 11, 2020, 05:28:21 PM »
https://www.defenseone.com/threats/2020/11/the-d-brief-november-11-2020/169956/

More top Pentagon leaders replaced. One day after firing Defense Secretary Mark Esper, President Donald Trump and his administration continued to replace senior civilians at the Pentagon.

On Tuesday:

Anthony Tata replaced Acting Defense Undersecretary for Policy James Anderson. Tata, who has been named don’t-call-him-acting “performing the duties of the defense undersecretary for policy,” is a retired general and Fox commentator whose nomination to replace Anderson was shot down by the Senate following various Islamophobic and conspiracy-mongering statements

Kash Patel replaced Jen Stewart, chief of staff to the fired Esper. Patel is “a former top National Security Council official who also played a key role as a Hill staffer in helping Republicans discredit the Russia probe,” and later became a senior adviser to then-acting Director of National Intelligence Richard Grenell.

Ezra Cohen-Watnick replaced Defense Undersecretary for Intelligence Joseph Kernan, who had signaled his intention to leave some time ago. Cohen-Watnick has held several posts in the Trump administration; since August, he had been “performing the duties of the assistant defense secretary for special operations and low-intensity conflict.” (He got that job after Chris Miller — yes, the newest acting SecDef — was shifted to the National Counterintelligence Center.) A former aide to Trump’s first national security adviser and felon Michael Flynn, Cohen-Watnick ran intelligence projects at the National Security Council, where he proved such a Trump loyalist that incoming National Security Adviser H.R. McMaster couldn’t fire him.

https://www.defenseone.com/threats/2020/11/the-d-brief-november-11-2020/169956/

Other moves atop the U.S. national security ranks in the past five days: an unusually partisan appointee will become NSA general counsel; the Energy Department’s National Nuclear Security Administration chief quit, and the Justice Department’s Elections Crimes Branch chief resigned in protest.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/national-security/former-gop-political-operative-michael-ellis-named-as-nsa-general-counsel/2020/11/09/8c7c025a-22cc-11eb-8672-c281c7a2c96e_story.html

https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2020-11-07/nuclear-bomb-agency-head-quits-after-clash-with-energy-secretary

Is Langley next? Senate Republicans are trying to prevent Trump from tossing CIA Director Gina Haspel, Politico reported Tuesday. (ICYMI: Haspel and FBI Director Christopher Wray are already marked for dismissal, according to Axios reporting from late October.)

-----------------------------------

It's Veteran's Day. President Trump is scheduled to visit the 'suckers' and 'losers' at Arlington National Cemetery for about 25 minutes today.

------------------------------------
“There are three classes of people: those who see. Those who see when they are shown. Those who do not see.” ― Leonardo da Vinci

Insensible before the wave so soon released by callous fate. Affected most, they understand the least, and understanding, when it comes, invariably arrives too late

vox_mundi

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Re: Elections 2020 USA
« Reply #905 on: November 11, 2020, 06:18:47 PM »
There is no evidence of significant voter fraud or other irregularities from last week’s election. That lack of evidence is why Trump and other GOP officials have gone “0 for 6” in lawsuits in closely run states, the Washington Post reported Tuesday evening.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/politics/trump-election-irregularities-claims/2020/11/08/8f704e6c-2141-11eb-ba21-f2f001f0554b_story.html

For the record: CISA sees no evidence. Read over related election rumors knocked down by CISA’s “Rumor Control” site, here.

https://www.cisa.gov/rumorcontrol#post

International observers say no evidence. Read the reports by the Organization of American States and the Organization for Security and Cooperation in Europe.

https://s.wsj.net/public/resources/documents/PreliminaryReportoftheOASEOMUSA2020.pdf

https://www.osce.org/files/f/documents/9/6/469437.pdf

Officials in every state say no evidence. The New York Times called up lead election officials from every state on Tuesday. They found “no evidence that fraud or other irregularities played a role in the outcome of the presidential race, amounting to a forceful rebuke of President Trump’s portrait of a fraudulent election.”

https://www.nytimes.com/2020/11/10/us/politics/voting-fraud.html

What the Times did discover: “Republicans in many states were engaged in a widespread effort to delegitimize the nation’s voting system.”

That includes Georgia, where voters will return to the polls in January to vote in two Senate runoffs, all eight of the candidates elected to serve in Congress next year called for an investigation into the election that elected them.

https://twitter.com/bluestein/status/1326275981443784710/photo/1

It also includes Texas, where the Republican lieutenant governor is offering a reward of up to a million dollars for evidence of fraud.

https://www.texastribune.org/2020/11/10/texas-dan-patrick/

(His counterpart in Pennsylvania tweeted Tuesday evening that he found unmistakable evidence, though it’s not the party affiliation that Texas Lt. Gov. Dan Patrick is seeking.)

https://twitter.com/JohnFetterman/status/1326311204923576321

https://t.co/9OjqYOMFYy?amp=1

South Dakota’s governor joined the GOP’s alleged fraud squad, too, and is fundraising off the election noise. But “it appears the donations are set to flow into her own reelection account,” the Associated Press reported.

https://apnews.com/article/election-2020-donald-trump-south-dakota-elections-campaigns-b922c257150cb723f738d2591524279b

And in Pennsylvania, an alleged whistleblower completely recanted his claims of voter fraud when questioned by investigators from the Postal Service’s inspector general on Monday. This would be the allegation of voter fraud that was publicized and advanced — even to the level of Attorney General Bill Barr — by South Carolina GOP Sen. Lindsey Graham over the weekend.

https://twitter.com/OversightDems/status/1326289047933816836

https://www.newsweek.com/lindsey-graham-voter-fraud-affadvit-pennsylvania-joe-biden-1545820

Elsewhere in Pennsylvania, Trump’s lawyers admitted to a judge they have no evidence of election fraud or “undue or improper influence” on voters. Read that court dialogue, here.

https://twitter.com/marceelias/status/1326345253360635904

BTW: Six in 10 Republicans affirm Biden won the election, according to a new poll from Reuters/Ipsos, published Tuesday. And all told, 80% of surveyed Americans are onboard with the election results

https://www.reuters.com/article/us-usa-election-poll/nearly-80-of-americans-say-biden-won-white-house-ignoring-trumps-refusal-to-concede-reuters-ipsos-poll-idUSKBN27Q3ED?il=0&utm_source=Twitter&utm_medium=Social

---------------------------------------------

We got your voter fraud, right here! ...

Evidence Suggests Several State Senate Candidates Were Plants Funded by Dark Money
https://www.local10.com/news/local/2020/11/11/evidence-suggests-several-state-senate-candidates-were-plants-funded-by-dark-money/?outputType=amp

MIAMI – Why would candidates for Florida Senate seats do no campaigning, no fundraising, have no issue platforms, nor make any effort to get votes?

Local 10 News has found evidence to suggest three such candidates in three Florida Senate district races, two of them in Miami Dade County, were shill candidates whose presence in the races were meant to syphon votes from Democratic candidates.

Comparisons of the no-party candidates' public campaign records show similarities and connections that suggest they are all linked by funding from the same dark money donors, and part of an elaborate scheme to upset voting patterns.

In one of those races, District 37, a recount is underway because the spread between the Democratic and Republican candidates is only 31 votes. The third party candidate received more than 6300 votes.

That third party candidate is Alexis Rodriguez, who has the same last name as the Democratic incumbent senator Jose Javier Rodriguez. The Republican challenger is Ileana Garcia.

Alexis Rodriguez falsified his address on his campaign filing form last June. The couple who now live at the Palmetto Bay address say they have been repeatedly harassed since then by people looking for Rodriguez, who hadn’t lived there in five years.

Local 10 visited Rodriguez’s place of business Tuesday, where Rodriguez lied about his identity. Pretending to be a business partner, Rodriguez shed little light on his sudden candidacy in the District 37 race and lack of fundraising or campaigning.

Local 10 began investigating Rodriguez’s candidacy because of a hunch by Executive Producer Natalie Morera de Varona last month. She was collecting candidates' headshots for election broadcast graphics and was curious why a candidate was nowhere to be found, not returning phone calls.

A search of campaign documents filed by Rodriguez led to a money trail and campaign finance connections with other no-party third candidates in Florida Senate District 9 in Central Florida, and District 39 in Miami-Dade.

The District 39 candidate is 81-year-old Celso Alfonso, a retiree who named the woman he calls his wife as campaign treasurer. She owns a day spa, and the home where we found Alfonso Tuesday afternoon.

He, too, lied about his identity at first, and finally admitted to being the candidate.

Alfonso claimed he had a lifelong dream to be in public service. He said he filed on his own, that no one assisted him.

A comparison of candidates Alfonso and Rodriguez show unusual similarities.

Both filed as No Party Affiliated candidates, yet both had recently been registered Republicans.

Both qualified as candidate on the same day, June 12, 2020, by paying a qualifying fee.

Both listed Gmail addresses with identical patterns: first initial, last name and district number and 2020.

Both list one single contribution to their campaign; both contributions are $2000 self-loans, presumably to pay the filing fee.

Both candidates' support appears to come from the same Political Action Committee, “Our Florida” - that have no previous political contributions or expenditures listed. It is the PAC that paid for campaign fliers for the candidates, all done by the same Clermont, Florida mail house, Advance Impressions.

Celso Alfonso gave conflicting answers about campaign fliers, first claiming there were none, then claiming his own campaign paid for them, though that expenditure is not listed in his campaign finance report. An unlisted campaign expenditure could be a campaign finance violation.

That $370,000 PAC expenditure to the printing house on Oct. 5 is the sole expenditure of “Our Florida”. And the PAC’s only contributor is an entity called Proclivity, whose $370,000 contribution is listed two days earlier.

Proclivity lists an address that traces back to a mailbox in a UPS Store in Atlanta.

Florida law allows the group to keep people behind its money private.

---------------------------------

I smell the stench of treachery in our midst ...


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The Walrus

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Re: Elections 2020 USA
« Reply #906 on: November 11, 2020, 06:35:07 PM »
"politically neutral media outlets" Are there any? Hasn't this always been a bit of a fiction? The question is more whether they regularly print outright lies, it seems to me.

Not that I am aware.  Some are less radical than others, but most favor one side or the other.

The second part is harder to assess.  Many do, especially when they are repeating the rhetoric of their preferred party.

sidd

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Re: Elections 2020 USA
« Reply #907 on: November 11, 2020, 10:21:51 PM »
Re: "How far back do the outright lies go?"

Hearst, 1898: "’You furnish the pictures, I’ll provide the war!’"

But i imagine that the history goes much further back.

sidd

vox_mundi

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Re: Elections 2020 USA
« Reply #908 on: November 13, 2020, 07:25:20 PM »
'Abuse of the Rule of Law': 1,000 ex-Judges, Legal Experts Slam Trump's False Claims of Voter Fraud
https://amp.usatoday.com/amp/6276446002

WASHINGTON – A group of 1,000 attorneys, including retired federal and state judges, state attorneys general and law professors criticized the Trump administration over baseless claims of widespread voter fraud in the 2020 election.

"Every candidate has a right to ensure that an election is conducted lawfully. However, court challenges, if any, must be based on facts, on evidence," stated the letter, which asked public officials to stop making false claims of systemic fraud that President Donald Trump has claimed "stole" the election from him.

https://lawyersdefendingdemocracy.org/open-letter-seeking-accountability-for-false-claims-of-fraudulent-election/

-------------------------------------

Trump Law Firm Withdraws from Pennsylvania Case Challenging Election
https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2020/nov/13/trump-law-firm-withdraws-pennsylvania-election-case

A major law firm withdrew overnight from a Trump campaign case in Pennsylvania seeking to have mail-in ballots thrown out, in the latest blow to the president’s efforts to challenge the 2020 election result in court.

The Ohio-based Porter Wright Morris & Arthur firm, which brought a suit on Monday alleging that the use of mail-in ballots had created “an illegal two-tiered voting system” in the state, abruptly withdrew from that case in a memo to the court.

https://twitter.com/davidenrich/status/1327218487039832064

“Plaintiffs and Porter Wright have reached a mutual agreement that plaintiffs will be best served if Porter Wright withdraws,” the memo said. The lead lawyer in the case, the Pittsburgh-based Ronald L Hicks Jr, did not immediately reply to a request for comment. The news was first reported by the New York Times.

... The news came as a coalition of US federal and state officials said they had no evidence that votes were compromised or altered in last week’s presidential election, rejecting unsubstantiated claims of widespread fraud advanced by Trump and many of his supporters.

https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2020/nov/13/no-evidence-of-us-election-says-coalition-of-federal-and-state-officials

Biden has opened up a lead of 5.3m popular votes and counting, and he is on track to win the electoral college 306-232.

Porter Wright and a second large law firm, the Ohio-based Jones Day, representing Republicans in 2020 election lawsuits have come under pressure for acting as perceived accomplices in Trump’s effort to cancel the election result.

The legal news site law.com called it a “public relations nightmare” for the firms. At least one lawyer at Porter Wright resigned over the firm’s decision to carry Trump’s lawsuits forward, the NYT reported.

https://www.law.com/americanlawyer/2020/11/11/representing-gop-trump-in-election-suits-is-risky-for-jones-day-and-porter-wright/

--------------------------------------



---------------------------------------------

Trump Campaign Drops Arizona Lawsuit Requesting Review of Ballots
https://amp.cnn.com/cnn/2020/11/13/politics/arizona-trump-lawsuit/index.html

Lawyers for the Trump campaign have dropped a lawsuit seeking a review of all ballots cast on Election Day after finding that the margin of victory for the presidential contest in Arizona could not be overcome.

"Since the close of yesterday's hearing, the tabulation of votes statewide has rendered unnecessary a judicial ruling as to the presidential electors," wrote Kory Langhofer, a lawyer for the Trump campaign. He said he did want the judge to rule on their requests to review votes for two down-ballot races.

The latest ballot counts "moots" the Trump campaign's claim, they wrote.

---------------------------------------------

« Last Edit: November 13, 2020, 09:21:02 PM by vox_mundi »
“There are three classes of people: those who see. Those who see when they are shown. Those who do not see.” ― Leonardo da Vinci

Insensible before the wave so soon released by callous fate. Affected most, they understand the least, and understanding, when it comes, invariably arrives too late

vox_mundi

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Re: Elections 2020 USA
« Reply #909 on: November 17, 2020, 10:26:21 PM »


Is it appropriate for an attorney to make false representations about himself in a court filing? Asking for a former federal prosecutor who seems to have neglected to pay his bar dues in DC.

https://mobile.twitter.com/benjaminwittes/status/1328729762383224838



So when America’s Mayor stated on his application to appear pro hac vice on behalf of the Trump campaign in Pennsylvania that “I am a member of the bar in good standing in every jurisdiction where I am admitted to practice,” he was perhaps a bit wide of the mark.

Nonetheless, the president’s pro bono attorney’s application was approved by U.S. District Judge Matthew Brann, so, unless that approval is revoked due to lack of candor by a member of the bar, Giuliani will presumably appear on behalf of the Trump campaign at this afternoon’s hearing.

Which leaves us with a federal hearing in a critically important — if totally doomed — election case, in which the incumbent president is represented by one attorney who has requested to withdraw her appearance, one attorney who has publicly said the case is crap, and one attorney who hasn’t entered his appearance in a federal court since 1992, already misrepresented himself to the court, and recently got caught by Borat with his hand down his pants.

Because … 2020.

https://abovethelaw.com/2020/11/rudy-giuliani-has-entered-the-chat/amp/

Ah ... About that pro bono...

“Rudolph W. Giuliani, who has helped oversee a string of failed court challenges to President Trump’s defeat in the election, asked the president’s campaign to pay him $20,000 a day for his legal work...”

All grift, all the time.


https://www.nytimes.com/2020/11/17/us/politics/giuliani-trump-election-pay.html

« Last Edit: November 17, 2020, 11:35:22 PM by vox_mundi »
“There are three classes of people: those who see. Those who see when they are shown. Those who do not see.” ― Leonardo da Vinci

Insensible before the wave so soon released by callous fate. Affected most, they understand the least, and understanding, when it comes, invariably arrives too late

Tom_Mazanec

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Re: Elections 2020 USA
« Reply #910 on: November 17, 2020, 11:56:31 PM »
vox_mundi, in 2024 we might look back on 2020 as the "Good Old Days".


RikW

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Re: Elections 2020 USA
« Reply #912 on: November 18, 2020, 11:32:26 AM »
That clearly shows the difference between densily populated cities and low populated country

kassy

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Re: Elections 2020 USA
« Reply #913 on: November 18, 2020, 12:13:33 PM »
Nice pro bono rate...  ::)

Þetta minnismerki er til vitnis um að við vitum hvað er að gerast og hvað þarf að gera. Aðeins þú veist hvort við gerðum eitthvað.

vox_mundi

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Re: Elections 2020 USA
« Reply #914 on: November 19, 2020, 01:17:30 AM »
“There are three classes of people: those who see. Those who see when they are shown. Those who do not see.” ― Leonardo da Vinci

Insensible before the wave so soon released by callous fate. Affected most, they understand the least, and understanding, when it comes, invariably arrives too late

Iain

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Re: Elections 2020 USA
« Reply #915 on: November 21, 2020, 01:10:41 PM »
"politically neutral media outlets"

BBC, ITN, Channel4, available worldwide

In the UK The Right regard them as too left and the Left as too right.

I mostly watch the BBC for news, they append claims of voter fraud with "....without providing evidence"

Other Trump  comments have been appended with

"...this has been widely debunked"

"....this is widely discredited"

"...this is not true"



"If I have seen further than others, it is by standing upon the shoulders of giants." Isaac Newton

Tor Bejnar

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Re: Elections 2020 USA
« Reply #916 on: November 21, 2020, 06:20:43 PM »
To prove the world is in balance, Republicans say one of the following about everything Joe Biden says:
Quote
"...this has been widely debunked"

"....this is widely discredited"

"...this is not true"
I can't wait, however, for Dec. 8 (States must resolve all election controversies - state elections certified by this date [except CA - Dec. 11 - for some reason]), Dec. 14 (electors vote), Jan. 6 (Congress counts votes) and Jan 20 (noon Eastern Standard Time).  Alas, I cannot hold my breath that long.

Does anybody have a simpler election process out there? Anybody?
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Tom_Mazanec

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Re: Elections 2020 USA
« Reply #917 on: November 21, 2020, 06:35:28 PM »
I cannot wait either, TB. American Thinker is suffering Biden Derangement Syndrome, and still insist Trump will win. I want to see them eat crow when it's over.

kassy

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Re: Elections 2020 USA
« Reply #918 on: November 21, 2020, 08:29:57 PM »
Well if you want to simplify then you have to count peoples votes in a meaningful way.

This means that you get rid of the winner takes all systems so you can have multiple parties on a local level and build from there.

It would not be a solution for the positions like governor or president but over time it might and what if 2 and 3 can combine votes which would combine votes from center + left or right with some meaningful program?
Þetta minnismerki er til vitnis um að við vitum hvað er að gerast og hvað þarf að gera. Aðeins þú veist hvort við gerðum eitthvað.

Iain

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Re: Elections 2020 USA
« Reply #919 on: November 22, 2020, 10:43:25 AM »
@Tor #916
Sure, but that’s Party A saying it – they would, wouldn’t they
Far different if an independent, well respected, licensed and regulated source says it.

Isn’t that the problem in the USA, no neutral source?
Supporters of Parties A and B self select their news source, to hear what they want to, so there is little opportunity to see the other side’s viewpoint.

# 917: “I want to see them eat crow when it's over.”
I doubt they will, they will just keep lying and making allegations without evidence.
"If I have seen further than others, it is by standing upon the shoulders of giants." Isaac Newton

Iain

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Re: Elections 2020 USA
« Reply #920 on: November 22, 2020, 10:52:37 AM »
The Westminster 1st past the post system is not ideal
With 3+ candidates, the one with 34%+ wins, while 66% do not want him/her.

The Scottish Parliament has a hybrid system, 1st past the post for an area representative, plus “list candidates”. They are not public-facing politicians, just useful people to have on your team, experts in education, town planning, whatever.
You get 2 votes, 1 for each category

Regardless of the system I don't know how to stop completely baseless allegations unless there are consequences for being found out.
"If I have seen further than others, it is by standing upon the shoulders of giants." Isaac Newton

The Walrus

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Re: Elections 2020 USA
« Reply #921 on: November 22, 2020, 01:05:09 PM »
The Westminster 1st past the post system is not ideal
With 3+ candidates, the one with 34%+ wins, while 66% do not want him/her.

The Scottish Parliament has a hybrid system, 1st past the post for an area representative, plus “list candidates”. They are not public-facing politicians, just useful people to have on your team, experts in education, town planning, whatever.
You get 2 votes, 1 for each category

Regardless of the system I don't know how to stop completely baseless allegations unless there are consequences for being found out.

Some jurisdictions are turning to the majority vote rule; if no candidate receives more than 50%, then there is a runoff between the two highest.  This is occurring currently in Georgia.

Tom_Mazanec

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Re: Elections 2020 USA
« Reply #922 on: November 22, 2020, 01:28:01 PM »
Quote
# 917: “I want to see them eat crow when it's over.”
I doubt they will, they will just keep lying and making allegations without evidence.
Yeah, you're probably right, Iain.
It is weird how they are in denial about Biden. Twelve years ago they believed Obama's victory. Mind, they weren't happy with it, and complained about it, but at least they were still on planet Earth. And Obama was a person of color who ran on overhauling our medical system. Biden is a Caucasian who is arguably a Corporate Democrat and their reaction is far more extreme.
Guess it's just the widening chasm between the Right and the Left in the cyberworld.

Tor Bejnar

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Re: Elections 2020 USA
« Reply #923 on: November 22, 2020, 09:01:48 PM »
...
Some jurisdictions are turning to the majority vote rule; if no candidate receives more than 50%, then there is a runoff between the two highest.  This is occurring currently in Georgia.
I've read that Georgia's system was instituted to disenfranchise African Americans.  This time around it kept African American (pastor) Raphael Warnock from winning in the general election (he had the plurality in that race).  On the other hand this system prevented Republican David Perdue from winning his race. (Each of these two Senate Seat's top two vote getters will face off in a special election on Jan. 5, 2021.)

Alaska just instituted an interesting 'majority vote' rule.
Quote
* replacing partisan primaries with open top-four primaries for state executive, state legislative, and congressional offices; and

* establishing ranked-choice voting for general elections, including the presidential election, in which voters would rank the candidates.
In Florida we just rejected a 'top two' open primary.  I think I would have supported the Alaska system.
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Tom_Mazanec

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Re: Elections 2020 USA
« Reply #924 on: November 22, 2020, 10:55:20 PM »
It's probably mathematically impossible to make a perfect election system in the real world.

kassy

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Re: Elections 2020 USA
« Reply #925 on: November 22, 2020, 11:50:11 PM »
Perfection is not a goal. Fair could be but usually is not.

The Georgia run off still rewards the winner whereas when the top two are forced too negotiate you get some common policy.

And as a side note what is the actual worth of an election where everyone votes on some vague issues but no one votes one technical shit like should your government allow nice succesful business people to poison your water or air etc.
Þetta minnismerki er til vitnis um að við vitum hvað er að gerast og hvað þarf að gera. Aðeins þú veist hvort við gerðum eitthvað.

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Re: Elections 2020 USA
« Reply #926 on: November 23, 2020, 02:29:02 AM »
...
Some jurisdictions are turning to the majority vote rule; if no candidate receives more than 50%, then there is a runoff between the two highest.  This is occurring currently in Georgia.
I've read that Georgia's system was instituted to disenfranchise African Americans.  This time around it kept African American (pastor) Raphael Warnock from winning in the general election (he had the plurality in that race).  On the other hand this system prevented Republican David Perdue from winning his race. (Each of these two Senate Seat's top two vote getters will face off in a special election on Jan. 5, 2021.)

Alaska just instituted an interesting 'majority vote' rule.
Quote
* replacing partisan primaries with open top-four primaries for state executive, state legislative, and congressional offices; and

* establishing ranked-choice voting for general elections, including the presidential election, in which voters would rank the candidates.
In Florida we just rejected a 'top two' open primary.  I think I would have supported the Alaska system.

Washington state had a similar rule for about a year by referendum but both parties saw how it weakens the parties and they got rid of it. 

sidd

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Re: Elections 2020 USA
« Reply #927 on: November 23, 2020, 05:27:39 AM »
Re: mathematically impossible to make a perfect election system

Kenneth Arrow is a good name to look for on this topic.

sidd

Freegrass

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Re: Elections 2020 USA
« Reply #928 on: November 24, 2020, 12:47:06 AM »
TRUMP IS OFFICIALLY A LOSER!!!!
YEAH BABY!!!! 🥳🥳🥳🥳🥳
And so we pray...

When factual science is in conflict with our beliefs, we cuddle up in our own delusional fantasy where everything starts making sense again...

vox_mundi

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Re: Elections 2020 USA
« Reply #929 on: November 24, 2020, 12:47:58 AM »
Michigan Certifies Biden Election Win, Days After Trump Leans On State's GOP Lawmakers
https://www.cnbc.com/amp/2020/11/23/michigan-certifies-biden-win-rejecting-trump-fraud-claims.html

Michigan's top elections board on Monday certified Joe Biden's win in the state's presidential vote.

The Michigan Board of State Canvassers signed off on the popular election results in a 3-0 vote.

The outcome deals President Donald Trump yet another blow in his effort to block the Democrat's national victory.

The vote came days after Trump held an unprecedented meeting at the White House with Republican state lawmakers from Michigan in what was believed to be an effort to get the state legislature to nullify the popular vote and appoint a slate of Trump electors.



--------------------------------------------------------

(AP) - Washington — The General Services Administration ascertained Monday that President-elect Joe Biden is the “apparent winner” of the Nov. 3 election, clearing the way for the start of the transition from President Donald Trump’s administration and allowing Biden to coordinate with federal agencies on plans for taking over on Jan. 20.

Trump, who had refused to concede the election, said in a tweet that he is directing his team to cooperate on the transition but is vowing to keep up the fight.

https://mobile.twitter.com/realDonaldTrump/status/1331013908971261953

-----------------------------------------------------------

Trump Fears Giuliani, Other Lawyers In Biden Vote Challenge are 'Fools That are Making Him Look Bad'
https://www.cnbc.com/amp/2020/11/23/trump-fears-giuliani-and-other-biden-vote-challenge-lawyers-are-fools.html

President Donald Trump is worried his campaign's legal team, led by his personal lawyer Rudy Giuliani, is composed of "fools that are making him look bad," NBC News reported.

Giuliani and other campaign lawyers have so far failed to invalidate votes and reverse an apparent victory for President-elect Joe Biden.

Former New Jersey Gov. Chris Christie on Sunday called Trump's legal team a "national embarrassment."
« Last Edit: November 24, 2020, 01:52:05 AM by vox_mundi »
“There are three classes of people: those who see. Those who see when they are shown. Those who do not see.” ― Leonardo da Vinci

Insensible before the wave so soon released by callous fate. Affected most, they understand the least, and understanding, when it comes, invariably arrives too late

Freegrass

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Re: Elections 2020 USA
« Reply #930 on: November 24, 2020, 12:57:02 AM »
Re: mathematically impossible to make a perfect election system

Kenneth Arrow is a good name to look for on this topic.

sidd
We have apps. In Belgium we have "It's Me". A login system for banks and government documents that's totally safe...
www.itsme.be

Those who claim we can have an online banking system, but not a safe online voting system, are complete and utter morons!

The reason why we don't have direct democracy yet is because the politicians don't want it. The voice of the people is way too powerful, and should not be heard every single freakin' day...
« Last Edit: November 24, 2020, 01:21:05 AM by Freegrass »
And so we pray...

When factual science is in conflict with our beliefs, we cuddle up in our own delusional fantasy where everything starts making sense again...

Tom_Mazanec

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Re: Elections 2020 USA
« Reply #931 on: November 24, 2020, 01:52:01 PM »
What The U.S. Election Meltdown Looks Like to Other Countries
https://www.politico.com/news/magazine/2020/11/22/us-election-foreign-observers-438691
Quote
Some described a sense of comeuppance, as the self-appointed democratic beacon turned out to be flawed after all; others were disappointed to watch their own autocrats or regional strongmen already capitalizing on the US’s domestic chaos. European allies, though surprised at the confusion, are largely taking it in stride as they await a better relationship with the Biden administration. China and Russia, officially, couldn’t be happier. And the former British ambassador asks what many Americans were asking just a couple of weeks ago: Why can’t the United States just hire more ballot counters? Their responses are below.

vox_mundi

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Re: Elections 2020 USA
« Reply #932 on: November 24, 2020, 07:36:32 PM »
Pennsylvania and Nevada on Tuesday certified their 2020 general election results, formally awarding electoral votes from two key battleground states to President-elect Joe Biden.

Biden had already been projected as the winner in both Pennsylvania, where he was leading by more than 81,000 votes, and in Nevada, where Biden won by more than 33,000 votes, according to the secretary of state's office.
“There are three classes of people: those who see. Those who see when they are shown. Those who do not see.” ― Leonardo da Vinci

Insensible before the wave so soon released by callous fate. Affected most, they understand the least, and understanding, when it comes, invariably arrives too late

be cause

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Re: Elections 2020 USA
« Reply #933 on: November 24, 2020, 08:06:32 PM »
 a whitehouse insider reported yesterday that it had been made clear to Trump that he would soon be losing the use of Airforce 1 .. I guessed as soon as i heard this that frump's resolve would weaken . Next thing I heard .. the transition had begun .
                         Boys don't like losing their toys ...
2007 + 5 = 2012 + 4 = 2016 + 3 = 2019 + 2 = 2021 + 1 =  ' if only we could have seen it coming ' ...

vox_mundi

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Re: Elections 2020 USA
« Reply #934 on: November 25, 2020, 08:37:55 AM »
“There are three classes of people: those who see. Those who see when they are shown. Those who do not see.” ― Leonardo da Vinci

Insensible before the wave so soon released by callous fate. Affected most, they understand the least, and understanding, when it comes, invariably arrives too late

Tom_Mazanec

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Re: Elections 2020 USA
« Reply #935 on: November 25, 2020, 12:29:15 PM »
^^ That's the best Trump cartoon you've posted yet, vox_mundi!

sidd

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Re: Elections 2020 USA
« Reply #936 on: December 03, 2020, 06:24:48 AM »
Hogseth at politico magazine: Democrats repel rural vote

" by 2019, I became chair of the Dunn County Democratic Party."

" good organizing was not enough to win Dunn County"

"rural people do not feel it is taken seriously by the Democratic Party."

"The signs of desperation are everywhere in communities like mine. A landscape of collapsed barns and crumbling roads. Main Streets with empty storefronts."

"capital overwhelmingly flows to metro areas, the small-town economy increasingly is dominated by large corporations: low-wage retailers like Dollar General or agribusiness firms that have no connection to the community."

"The source of our wealth is in the things we grow. But today, those things get shipped off into a vast global supply chain, where profits are siphoned off and little remains  ... Corporations control more and more of the agriculture business—from the seed and fertilizer farmers buy to the grain, milk and meat they sell ... Every day, small farmers are squeezed: They can either expand their operations and take on more debt in an attempt to produce more, or close their business entirely."

"The digital divide is also real: About 28 percent of rural Wisconsinites lack high-speed internet, which stifles rural economic growth. "

"Rural health care is a disaster ... it’s generally not profitable for hospitals to operate in low-population areas ... those hospitals that remain open in rural parts of the state are scaling back services and struggling to retain doctors. In my own county, there are zero ICU beds, even as Covid infection rates surge. Our profit-based health care system is failing rural people."

"Rural people in Wisconsin are dying by suicide at rates higher than folks in suburban and urban parts of the state ... many rural counties lack a single practicing psychiatrist ... an inescapable feeling of failure and an overwhelming sense that there is no future here."

"none of this is an accident. It is the result of decades of policy decisions—by Republicans and Democrats—that deplete our communities"

"Rural voters appreciated Obama’s repeated campaign promises to challenge the rise of agribusiness monopolies. But as president, he allowed for the continued consolidation of corporate power in the food system ...  his administration did not have the backs of family farmers."

"supporters of the president who were well aware of his shortcomings or admitted to disliking his leadership style, but who nonetheless believed he was willing to stand up to “elitist” Democrats and fight for citizens like them. For years, rural people have heard they are voting “against their own self-interest” when they elect Republicans, or that they vote the “wrong way” because they are uneducated. These are arrogant and damaging messages that are not easily forgotten. The reality, as I saw in my conversations with voters this year, is that many rural people have lost trust in the Democratic Party."

"rural people feel our way of life is being sold off."

"A big step forward for Democrats would be to champion antitrust enforcement and challenge the anticompetitive practices of the gigantic agribusiness firms that squeeze our communities."

"Democrats can win rural Wisconsin again, but they’ll need to try."

https://www.politico.com/news/magazine/2020/12/01/democrats-rural-vote-wisconsin-441458

sidd

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Re: Elections 2020 USA
« Reply #937 on: December 07, 2020, 08:10:53 PM »
The bad stuff went up a notch in Michigan...

https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2020/dec/07/michigan-elections-chief-trump-protesters
Armed pro-Trump protesters gather outside Michigan elections chief's home

Jocelyn Benson: gathering ‘unambiguous, loud and threatening’
Protesters make false claims about election fraud

Quote
Michigan’s secretary of state, Jocelyn Benson, said dozens of armed protesters gathered in a threatening manner outside her home on Saturday evening chanting “bogus” claims about electoral fraud.

Michigan officials last month certified the state’s election results showing President-elect Joe Biden had won Michigan, one of a handful of key battleground states, in the course of his 3 November election victory.

Donald Trump has repeatedly claimed, contrary to evidence, that the outcome was marred by widespread fraud in multiple states. State and federal officials have repeatedly stated that there is no evidence of fraud on any significant scale, and Biden is to be sworn in on 20 January.

The protesters who rallied outside Benson’s home held up placards saying “Stop the Steal” and chanted the same message, according to various clips uploaded on social media.

In a Twitter statement on Sunday, Benson said the protesters were trying to spread false information about the security and accuracy of the US election system. “The demands made outside my home were unambiguous, loud and threatening.”

The Michigan attorney general, Dana Nessel, in a separate Twitter post, accused the pro-Trump demonstrators of “mob-like behavior [that] is an affront to basic morality and decency”.

“Anyone can air legitimate grievances to Secretary Benson’s office through civil and democratic means, but terrorizing children and families in their own homes is not activism.”

Benson added: “They targeted me in my role as Michigan’s chief election officer. But the threats of those gathered weren’t actually aimed at me – or any other elected officials in this state. They were aimed at the voters.”

Governor Gretchen Whitmer, who has clashed publicly with Trump over state coronavirus restrictions, was the target of a kidnapping plot by a far-right militia group during the election campaign, prosecutors said in October.

Michigan, one of a handful of key swing state in the 2020 presidential race, was a target of agitation by Trump and rightwing supporters against stay-at-home orders Whitmer imposed earlier this year to curb coronavirus transmissions.
"Para a Causa do Povo a Luta Continua!"
"And that's all I'm going to say about that". Forrest Gump
"Damn, I wanted to see what happened next" (Epitaph)

wili

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Re: Elections 2020 USA
« Reply #938 on: December 07, 2020, 09:38:04 PM »
The contrast between the heroism of this Jocelyn Benson standing up to all this violent pressure, and the utter depraved cowardice of nearly every Repug in the US Senate is simply stunning!
"A force de chercher de bonnes raisons, on en trouve; on les dit; et après on y tient, non pas tant parce qu'elles sont bonnes que pour ne pas se démentir." Choderlos de Laclos "You struggle to come up with some valid reasons, then cling to them, not because they're good, but just to not back down."

Tom_Mazanec

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Re: Elections 2020 USA
« Reply #939 on: December 08, 2020, 01:16:40 PM »
It ain't over till it's over...

House conservatives urge Trump not to concede and press for floor fight over election loss
https://www.cnn.com/2020/12/07/politics/house-republicans-trump-biden/index.html
Quote
President Donald Trump's staunchest defenders on Capitol Hill are urging him not to concede even after President-elect Joe Biden wins the Electoral College vote next week, calling on their party's leader to battle it out all the way to the House floor in January as he makes unsubstantiated claims of widespread election fraud.

wili

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Re: Elections 2020 USA
« Reply #940 on: December 08, 2020, 07:13:45 PM »
GOP senator unloads on Trump’s ‘completely unacceptable’ pressure campaign to overturn election

https://www.rawstory.com/2020/12/gop-senator-unloads-on-trumps-completely-unacceptable-pressure-campaign-to-overturn-election/

I wonder if one of these at-least-partially-connected-with-reality GOP senators will at some point leave their otherwise totally delusional party and help throw the senate to the Dems?
"A force de chercher de bonnes raisons, on en trouve; on les dit; et après on y tient, non pas tant parce qu'elles sont bonnes que pour ne pas se démentir." Choderlos de Laclos "You struggle to come up with some valid reasons, then cling to them, not because they're good, but just to not back down."

Tor Bejnar

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Re: Elections 2020 USA
« Reply #941 on: December 08, 2020, 09:51:27 PM »
Just when 'some' things are quieting down ...

[US Supreme Court Justice] Alito Sparks Worry Supreme Court Could Intervene
Taegan Goddard's Political Wire
https://politicalwire.com
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The Walrus

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Re: Elections 2020 USA
« Reply #942 on: December 08, 2020, 10:05:55 PM »
Just when 'some' things are quieting down ...

[US Supreme Court Justice] Alito Sparks Worry Supreme Court Could Intervene
Taegan Goddard's Political Wire
https://politicalwire.com

This seems like more fearmongering.  How does moving up the deadline one day lead to this headline? 

"I would not read too much into this," wrote leading election legal scholar and University of California-Irvine law professor Richard Hasen

"It shows more respect to the petitioners and does not make it look like the Court is simply running out the clock on the petition. I still think the chances the Court grants any relief on this particular petition are virtually zero," Hasen wrote.


Tom_Mazanec

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Re: Elections 2020 USA
« Reply #943 on: December 09, 2020, 04:03:28 PM »
OK, people, this guy has trapped me with clickbait before, and I don't know if this is more of the same. The column has links to legal stuff that I am not competent to evaluate, so I would like to know if this is more delusional stuff like American Thinker is still posting, or if there is an actual chance that this is on the level:

The Texas Lawsuit Is On The Docket – The Supreme Court Will Determine The Fate Of The 2020 Election
http://endoftheamericandream.com/archives/the-lawsuit-filed-by-texas-is-on-the-docket-and-that-means-the-supreme-court-will-determine-the-fate-of-the-2020-election

Tor Bejnar

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Re: Elections 2020 USA
« Reply #944 on: December 09, 2020, 04:32:23 PM »
Unrelated to the Texas suit  ...

 Supreme Court Denies Trump's Attempt to Throw Out the Pennsylvania Election Results

Quote
Late yesterday, the Supreme Court rejected Donald Trump's attempt to overturn the Pennsylvania election results. The unsigned order did not indicate any dissenting votes or give a reason. The answer to Trump's request was a direct and straightforward "no."
...

Back to Texas' suit ...

 Texas Asks the Supreme Court to Throw out the Election Results in Four Other States

Quote
In a move that can only be described as way beyond Hail Mary, ...

... "There is no possible way that the state of Texas has standing..." ...
 ...
... [If SCOTUS took up the Texas case:] Once states are granted the right to sue other states because they don't like the other states' laws, there will be no end to the suits. The Court is likely to refuse to touch the case and possibly note in the rejection that if there are election disputes, it is up to Congress to settle them. The buck stops over there somewhere.

My 'problem' is that I don't know how Justice Alito 'sparked worry' yesterday.  That article was too cryptic - if it was about "Trump's Pennsylvania appeal", then of course it is 'done and taken care of'.   

It does take 4 justices 'buy in' to hear a case, but we don't know how much kompromat Trump has on how many justices.   :-\
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SteveMDFP

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Re: Elections 2020 USA
« Reply #945 on: December 09, 2020, 04:41:53 PM »
OK, people, this guy has trapped me with clickbait before, and I don't know if this is more of the same. The column has links to legal stuff that I am not competent to evaluate, so I would like to know if this is more delusional stuff like American Thinker is still posting, or if there is an actual chance that this is on the level:

The Texas Lawsuit Is On The Docket – The Supreme Court Will Determine The Fate Of The 2020 Election
http://endoftheamericandream.com/archives/the-lawsuit-filed-by-texas-is-on-the-docket-and-that-means-the-supreme-court-will-determine-the-fate-of-the-2020-election

The Supreme Court can provide surprises, but I don't think it's plausible that the Texas AG case will go anywhere.  At the level of constitutional law, the states are free to select electors as they see fit.  Texas has no standing to claim an injury because of how another state selected its electors.

If the executive branches of the defendant states failed to follow their own laws, the proper venue to adjudicate that matter would be in the state courts of the defendant states.  Even demonstrating significant deficiencies in the states' procedures shouldn't result in the draconian "remedy" of disenfranchising millions of voters who followed instructions in good faith.  This is especially true in the context of a declared national emergency that necessitated modifications to preserve public health.

Another issue with the suit is that it was not filed in a timely matter.  Waiting until after these states had counted and certified the votes is not acting in good faith.  The time to file was when these altered procedures were put into place, not when the results are found to be not to the liking of the Texas AG.

My own interpretation is that the Supreme Court took the case to explicitly smack down such shenanigans and abuse of the judicial process.

I also interpret the Texas AG's actions as not to alter the election results, but to curry favor with Trump, who might issue a pardon for the AG, who is facing Federal indictments.

Tor Bejnar

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Re: Elections 2020 USA
« Reply #946 on: December 09, 2020, 04:47:28 PM »
Quote
I also interpret the Texas AG's actions as not to alter the election results, but to curry favor with Trump, who might issue a pardon for the AG, who is facing Federal indictments.
Ah...  Now this makes sense!
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wili

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Re: Elections 2020 USA
« Reply #947 on: December 09, 2020, 06:24:33 PM »
TX AG has not 'standing' in the case, so this will go nowhere...but yeah, he's trying to curry favor for a pardon since he is looking at probably many lifetimes in jail for multiple crimes.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Standing_(law)
"A force de chercher de bonnes raisons, on en trouve; on les dit; et après on y tient, non pas tant parce qu'elles sont bonnes que pour ne pas se démentir." Choderlos de Laclos "You struggle to come up with some valid reasons, then cling to them, not because they're good, but just to not back down."

Tom_Mazanec

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Re: Elections 2020 USA
« Reply #948 on: December 09, 2020, 06:29:07 PM »
Thanks.
Mike is Right but not as bad as American Thinker. I get links from him occasionally. Good that the apple art is not going to be overturned at the 11th hour.

Tom_Mazanec

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Re: Elections 2020 USA
« Reply #949 on: December 12, 2020, 04:31:02 AM »
Supreme Court declines to hear Trump-supported Texas case over election results in four other states
https://www.foxnews.com/politics/scotus-denied-election-texas-election-suit
Quote
“The State of Texas’s motion for leave to file a bill of complaint is denied for lack of standing under Article III of the Constitution,” the Supreme Court’s order reads. “Texas has not demonstrated a judicially cognizable interest in the manner in which another State conducts its elections. All other pending motions are dismissed as moot.”
I wonder if Trump is thinking of leading a political movement among his voters?