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blumenkraft

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Re: Elections 2020 USA
« Reply #100 on: September 02, 2019, 10:26:21 PM »
Two observations. You don't deny him being a predator. And you wouldn't answer my question.

I know what both means.
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Alexander555

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Re: Elections 2020 USA
« Reply #101 on: September 02, 2019, 10:46:45 PM »
How would i have to know ? Most CEO's have more from a pshycopathe than the average prisoner. But most manage to controle themself. But there is some dirt among these elites. Would it be enough to start a war. That would set them all free. You guys all to the battle-field.

oren

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Re: Elections 2020 USA
« Reply #102 on: September 02, 2019, 11:11:06 PM »
BL, DNFTT.

petm

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Re: Elections 2020 USA
« Reply #103 on: September 03, 2019, 01:00:43 AM »
How soon will Arctic go Trump-free  :P

blumenkraft

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Re: Elections 2020 USA
« Reply #104 on: September 03, 2019, 07:27:21 AM »
Refugees welcome

sidd

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Re: Elections 2020 USA
« Reply #105 on: September 06, 2019, 09:46:26 PM »
Lowrey at black agenda report on candidates of the extreme left:

"A member of the Trotskyist party Socialist Action, Mackler is one of a handful of true, full-fat, no-joke socialist candidates running or considering running for president in 2020."

" Historians and political scientists—and socialists themselves—make the point that although the left has moved to the left, there is still a lot of left left to the left. "

"In Florida, Elijah Manley, a college student, activist, and former staffer for Senator Mike Gravel’s 2020 bid, is also running a socialist protest campaign"

"These candidates differ from the Democrats on policy, putting forward far, far more sweeping proposals than even Sanders has. Mackler scoffed at Warren’s plan to tax fortunes over $50 million at 2 percent a year, recalling a time he suggested a 100 percent levy on income over $150,000 a year. Manley said he supports proposals like Medicare for All and free college tuition, but nevertheless wants to keep workers controlling the means of production as a north star. "

"Monica Moorehead, the once and perhaps future presidential candidate for the Workers World Party, supports reparations, guaranteeing all Americans a decent standard of living, and ending the carceral state."

" the socialists’ goal is not to hem in capitalism’s excesses, as Democrats largely want to do, but to end the hegemony of capitalism."

" “Nothing ever changes without independent mass struggle—independent of the two parties, which both represent, fundamentally, the interests of the rich,” Moorehead told me. “We can’t have a kinder, gentler capitalism.” "

"Come 2020, there won’t be a socialist in the White House. But there might be some socialism"

https://blackagendareport.com/people-who-think-bernie-moderate

sidd

SteveMDFP

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Re: Elections 2020 USA
« Reply #106 on: September 06, 2019, 09:50:33 PM »
How would you know he's a rapist ? You hope he's one.

What ignoring E. Jean Carroll's rape allegation does to all of us

https://www.cnn.com/2019/06/27/opinions/donald-trump-jean-carroll-rape-allegation-chemaly/index.html

Tom_Mazanec

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Re: Elections 2020 USA
« Reply #107 on: September 06, 2019, 11:42:19 PM »
Democrats seize on climate as 2020 primary weapon
https://www.politico.com/story/2019/09/04/democrats-climate-2020-1481499
Quote
It wasn’t the debate that climate activists wanted.

But one marathon stretch of climate forums on Wednesday nevertheless marked a sharp turn in the 2020 presidential contest. In seven hours on CNN, the leading Democratic candidates showed the first signs of weaponizing climate change in the primary campaign.

Democrats split from Obama playbook with aggressive climate plans
https://www.politico.com/story/2019/09/04/democrats-2020-obama-climate-change-1705031
Quote
Democratic White House hopefuls are rolling out aggressive climate change plans that show a sharp break from former President Barack Obama by seeking to prohibit new fossil fuel production on federal lands.

That represents a U-turn from the Trump administration's focus on driving up U.S. fossil fuel production and would go further than climate policies implemented by Obama, who often extolled the rising U.S. energy production from fracking during his tenure in the White House.

IS OK GOOD ENOUGH FOR AN INCUMBENT IN THE FACE OF THE CLIMATE CRISIS?
https://theintercept.com/2019/09/04/illinois-bill-foster-congress-rachel-ventura/
Quote
Ventura — who used to work as a naturalist for Georgia State Parks — was inspired by the national conversation around the Green New Deal to make lemonade out of Will County’s lemons. She’s currently pushing a massive project to create natural gas from trash compression at a nearby landfill, capturing greenhouse gases for reuse that would otherwise be leaked into the atmosphere. On a local level, Ventura said, this is just one aspect of what a Green New Deal could look like.

In backing a Green New Deal and likeminded initiatives at the county levels, Ventura hopes to build a shared and sustainable form of economic development. “When we’re investing money into communities and into jobs, that money gets recycled back into our economy. It’s the exact opposite of trickle-down,” Ventura said. “As we’re all receiving better jobs, that goes back into business and that generates more tax dollars, which creates more money for infrastructure.” Among Ventura’s concerns about the explosive growth of the area’s shipping industry is that many warehouse workers are hired under short-term contracts that leave them vulnerable to mistreatment and injuries on top of low wages.
« Last Edit: September 06, 2019, 11:51:09 PM by Tom_Mazanec »
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Tom_Mazanec

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Re: Elections 2020 USA
« Reply #108 on: September 11, 2019, 09:02:29 PM »
The Left Has Reframed Democrats’ Climate Debate
https://www.theatlantic.com/science/archive/2019/09/why-2020-climate-primary-like-2008/597694/
Quote
Just as the 2008 primary helped form Obama’s health-care policy, 2020’s climate plans could have an influence in the long term.

A guide to how 2020 Democrats plan to fight climate change
https://www.vox.com/2019/9/10/20851109/2020-democrats-climate-change-plan-president
Quote
As for the remaining candidates’ plans, most agree that climate change demands a policy response to zero out the country’s emissions. Where they differ is in how they want to get there, how they will draw on sources like nuclear power, how much federal government investment they need, and the political levers they’ll use to enact their visions.
« Last Edit: September 11, 2019, 09:26:03 PM by Tom_Mazanec »
SHARKS (CROSSED OUT) MONGEESE (SIC) WITH FRICKIN LASER BEAMS ATTACHED TO THEIR HEADS

Tom_Mazanec

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Re: Elections 2020 USA
« Reply #109 on: September 13, 2019, 10:41:20 PM »
The crackers and frackers could hold the keys to 2020
https://www.washingtonexaminer.com/opinion/columnists/the-crackers-and-frackers-could-hold-the-keys-to-2020
Quote
All Darrin Kelly wanted for the energy workers in Western Pennsylvania was that the Democratic presidential hopefuls would talk to them before going to war against shale.

That opportunity slipped away last Friday when Elizabeth Warren joined Bernie Sanders in calling for a total fracking ban.

“On my first day as president, I will sign an executive order that puts a total moratorium on all new fossil-fuel leases for drilling offshore and on public lands. And I will ban fracking — everywhere,” Warren tweeted.

“It is disappointing that any national candidate would not come in here and want to talk to the men and women of this area first before unilaterally making that decision,” said Kelly, a charismatic Pittsburgh firefighter who is also the head of the powerful and influential Allegheny Fayette Labor Council. They represent workers stretching from Pittsburgh to the borders of Maryland and West Virginia.
SHARKS (CROSSED OUT) MONGEESE (SIC) WITH FRICKIN LASER BEAMS ATTACHED TO THEIR HEADS

sidd

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Re: Elections 2020 USA
« Reply #110 on: September 25, 2019, 02:07:18 AM »
Media like Warren: "Maybe she isn’t like Bernie"

"as long as Sanders is in the race, he will no doubt continue to draw the most intense fire. "

Hollar at FAIR:

https://fair.org/home/what-media-like-best-about-elizabeth-warren-shes-not-bernie-sanders/

sidd

TerryM

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Re: Elections 2020 USA
« Reply #111 on: September 25, 2019, 04:44:57 AM »
Tulsi is only democratic candidate not in favor of impeachment.


https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/politics/rep-tulsi-gabbard-says-impeachment-of-trump-would-be-terribly-divisive-for-country/ar-AAHN2LP


Might make for some interesting fireworks during the next debate.


Terry

bbr2314

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Re: Elections 2020 USA
« Reply #112 on: September 25, 2019, 06:09:53 AM »
Media like Warren: "Maybe she isn’t like Bernie"

"as long as Sanders is in the race, he will no doubt continue to draw the most intense fire. "

Hollar at FAIR:

https://fair.org/home/what-media-like-best-about-elizabeth-warren-shes-not-bernie-sanders/

sidd
Hilary didn't work out in 2016 so nominating someone who is substantially LESS palatable will surely work out in 2020. The Ds are in the process of alienating the entire moderate population of the US, it will come as no surprise when Trump wins again in another 300+ EV landslide.

sidd

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Re: Elections 2020 USA
« Reply #113 on: September 26, 2019, 02:40:04 AM »

wili

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Re: Elections 2020 USA
« Reply #114 on: September 26, 2019, 04:07:42 AM »
On the other hand:

“The Dem House will impeach. And then the GOP will spend an entire election year explaining why the Senate won’t convict. An election year defending this? That’s not a change? Hell just got hotter for the GOP in the age of Trump.”

‘Hell just got hotter’: GOP strategist explains why impeachment will be a disaster for Republicans

https://www.rawstory.com/2019/09/hell-just-got-hotter-gop-strategist-explains-why-impeachment-will-be-a-disaster-for-republicans/
"A force de chercher de bonnes raisons, on en trouve; on les dit; et après on y tient, non pas tant parce qu'elles sont bonnes que pour ne pas se démentir." Choderlos de Laclos "You struggle to come up with some valid reasons, then cling to them, not because they're good, but just to not back down."

SteveMDFP

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Re: Elections 2020 USA
« Reply #115 on: September 26, 2019, 03:16:36 PM »
On the other hand:

“The Dem House will impeach. And then the GOP will spend an entire election year explaining why the Senate won’t convict. An election year defending this? ...”
 

My crystal ball is showing something a little different.  The House votes to impeach before the end of the year.  The Senate then holds the "trial" over a holiday weekend, while the public isn't paying attention.  Trump is acquitted. 

The repubes then spend the year proclaiming that Trump was exonerated and denouncing Democrat partisan witch hunts.  Polls don't budge appreciably.  Trump wins or loses depending on the economy and how strongly smears stick to the Dem nominee.

Klondike Kat

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Re: Elections 2020 USA
« Reply #116 on: September 26, 2019, 03:20:53 PM »
On the other hand:

“The Dem House will impeach. And then the GOP will spend an entire election year explaining why the Senate won’t convict. An election year defending this? ...”
 

My crystal ball is showing something a little different.  The House votes to impeach before the end of the year.  The Senate then holds the "trial" over a holiday weekend, while the public isn't paying attention.  Trump is acquitted. 

The repubes then spend the year proclaiming that Trump was exonerated and denouncing Democrat partisan witch hunts.  Polls don't budge appreciably.  Trump wins or loses depending on the economy and how strongly smears stick to the Dem nominee.

Steve, that sounds like the most likely sccenario.  Somewhat similar to judge Kavanaugh, but with more partisanship (if possible) and less fanfare.  This has a greater potential to damage the Dems on a whole, as it may present itself as another witch hunt.  That would not bode well for the Dems chances to retain the House or win the Senate.  I agree that it will not affect the presidential election.

GoSouthYoungins

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Re: Elections 2020 USA
« Reply #117 on: September 26, 2019, 03:48:25 PM »
My crystal ball is showing something a little different.  The House votes to impeach before the end of the year.  The Senate then holds the "trial" over a holiday weekend, while the public isn't paying attention.  Trump is acquitted.

Strongly disagree. The republicans control the senate. So if the dems make the mistake of impeaching the president, Mitch will use the "trial" as an opportunity to bring up as much demo-dirt as possible. Crowdstrike, Burisma Holdings, Fusion GPS, McCabe's Insurance-Policy, Steele Dossier, etc. will all be given center stage.
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SteveMDFP

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Re: Elections 2020 USA
« Reply #118 on: September 26, 2019, 08:34:30 PM »
My crystal ball is showing something a little different.  The House votes to impeach before the end of the year.  The Senate then holds the "trial" over a holiday weekend, while the public isn't paying attention.  Trump is acquitted.

Strongly disagree. The republicans control the senate. So if the dems make the mistake of impeaching the president, Mitch will use the "trial" as an opportunity to bring up as much demo-dirt as possible. Crowdstrike, Burisma Holdings, Fusion GPS, McCabe's Insurance-Policy, Steele Dossier, etc. will all be given center stage.

Improbable.  The Constitution describes the trial process.  Prosecution is House Judiciary committee.  Judge is Chief Justice Roberts.  Though Roberts is a Republican/Conservative, he is assertively non-partisan, and very concerned with the public perception of the Court.  He may grant some leeway for Defense witnesses, but he won't permit frank abuse of that privilege.

I expect the House to impeach on only one or two charges.  Upon Senate acquittal, I expect the House to hold additional hearings for additional articles.  Right up until the election, if Trump continues to obstruct by withholding witnesses and documents.

GoSouthYoungins

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Re: Elections 2020 USA
« Reply #119 on: September 28, 2019, 02:00:41 AM »
My crystal ball is showing something a little different.  The House votes to impeach before the end of the year.  The Senate then holds the "trial" over a holiday weekend, while the public isn't paying attention.  Trump is acquitted.

Strongly disagree. The republicans control the senate. So if the dems make the mistake of impeaching the president, Mitch will use the "trial" as an opportunity to bring up as much demo-dirt as possible. Crowdstrike, Burisma Holdings, Fusion GPS, McCabe's Insurance-Policy, Steele Dossier, etc. will all be given center stage.

Improbable.  The Constitution describes the trial process.  Prosecution is House Judiciary committee.  Judge is Chief Justice Roberts.  Though Roberts is a Republican/Conservative, he is assertively non-partisan, and very concerned with the public perception of the Court.  He may grant some leeway for Defense witnesses, but he won't permit frank abuse of that privilege.

I expect the House to impeach on only one or two charges.  Upon Senate acquittal, I expect the House to hold additional hearings for additional articles.  Right up until the election, if Trump continues to obstruct by withholding witnesses and documents.

"The Constitution describes the trial process.  Prosecution is House Judiciary committee."

Um, no. Try reading it.

"He may grant some leeway for Defense witnesses, but he won't permit frank abuse of that privilege."

All the dem dirt I named will likely be germane to whatever article(s) the house bring.
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bbr2314

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Re: Elections 2020 USA
« Reply #120 on: September 28, 2019, 05:45:53 AM »
My crystal ball is showing something a little different.  The House votes to impeach before the end of the year.  The Senate then holds the "trial" over a holiday weekend, while the public isn't paying attention.  Trump is acquitted.

Strongly disagree. The republicans control the senate. So if the dems make the mistake of impeaching the president, Mitch will use the "trial" as an opportunity to bring up as much demo-dirt as possible. Crowdstrike, Burisma Holdings, Fusion GPS, McCabe's Insurance-Policy, Steele Dossier, etc. will all be given center stage.

Improbable.  The Constitution describes the trial process.  Prosecution is House Judiciary committee.  Judge is Chief Justice Roberts.  Though Roberts is a Republican/Conservative, he is assertively non-partisan, and very concerned with the public perception of the Court.  He may grant some leeway for Defense witnesses, but he won't permit frank abuse of that privilege.

I expect the House to impeach on only one or two charges.  Upon Senate acquittal, I expect the House to hold additional hearings for additional articles.  Right up until the election, if Trump continues to obstruct by withholding witnesses and documents.
Do you realize how bad this is going to make Democrats look? They couldn't win on Russia so they are just throwing everything at him, whether it is true or not.

There is definitely fire re: the relationship between the Clintons and Jeffrey Epstein. Trump knew him too but Epstein didn't have a painting of Trump in a dress hanging in his UES mansion. If you think the Democrats are going to get away with this, you are certainly free to your opinion, but I think it would contribute to a Trump victory in 2020 and it will potentially give him an excuse to "lock her up" as well as some of the other Ds for real this time.

SteveMDFP

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Re: Elections 2020 USA
« Reply #121 on: September 28, 2019, 09:10:09 PM »

Do you realize how bad this is going to make Democrats look? They couldn't win on Russia so they are just throwing everything at him, whether it is true or not. . . .

It's difficult for me to see how shining a spotlight on Trump's endless lies and corrupt schemes will net a loss in support for Democrats.

The US President asked a foreign leader to "do us a favor" and launch a criminal investigation into a political opponent, while holding billions of dollars in aid hostage.  There is no question about "whether it is true or not" because Trump himself released the notes from the call.

In terms of harming domestic democracy, nothing done by Nixon or any other prior President comes close.

Many would turn on the Democrats for *failing* to impeach on this matter.  Even partisan Republicans should mostly see this as a legitimate matter for prosecution, even if many would not consider it sufficient for removal from office.

sidd

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Re: Elections 2020 USA
« Reply #122 on: September 28, 2019, 09:21:16 PM »
Re: "nothing done by nixon"

Mmmm. How easily they forget.

Some might say that sabotaging the paris talks to benefit his candidacy and extending the vietnam war is worse than anything the current incumbent has done ... others of course maintain that Trump is worse than Hitler.

Here is one writeup, there are many others.

https://www.politico.com/magazine/story/2017/08/06/nixon-vietnam-candidate-conspired-with-foreign-power-win-election-215461

Oddly enuf, Johnson knew of the sabotage efforts and chose not to publicize them

sidd

TerryM

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Re: Elections 2020 USA
« Reply #123 on: September 28, 2019, 09:25:12 PM »
<snipped>
Many would turn on the Democrats for *failing* to impeach on this matter.  Even partisan Republicans should mostly see this as a legitimate matter for prosecution, even if many would not consider it sufficient for removal from office.
The last quote I saw was 37% of voters favored impeachment, but that was a few days back. Have the polls changed recently?


I personally can't envision a supermajority of the Republican controlled senate voting to boot out Trump. I had read that Trump's war chest gained $5M in the 24 hours after the decision was made.
Terry

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Re: Elections 2020 USA
« Reply #124 on: September 28, 2019, 11:44:59 PM »
Re: "nothing done by nixon"

Mmmm. How easily they forget.

Some might say that sabotaging the paris talks to benefit his candidacy and extending the vietnam war is worse than anything the current incumbent has done ... others of course maintain that Trump is worse than Hitler.

You're right, of course.  Dragging out a war is worse than extorting a foreign leader.  I was thinking just in terms of the Watergate/impeachment matters.

wili

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Re: Elections 2020 USA
« Reply #125 on: September 29, 2019, 02:05:40 AM »
Quote
A new poll from NPR-PBS NewsHour-Marist found that 49 percent of Americans now approve of impeachment

https://nypost.com/2019/09/28/number-of-americans-supporting-trump-impeachment-is-growing-poll/

Republican support for impeaching Trump doubled in the past few days amid escalating Ukraine scandal

https://www.businessinsider.com/republican-support-for-impeaching-trump-doubled-amid-ukraine-scandal-2019-9

Most Americans support impeachment if Trump pressured Ukraine

https://today.yougov.com/topics/politics/articles-reports/2019/09/26/impeachment-trump-support-poll-survey-yougov
"A force de chercher de bonnes raisons, on en trouve; on les dit; et après on y tient, non pas tant parce qu'elles sont bonnes que pour ne pas se démentir." Choderlos de Laclos "You struggle to come up with some valid reasons, then cling to them, not because they're good, but just to not back down."

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Re: Elections 2020 USA
« Reply #126 on: September 29, 2019, 08:30:24 AM »
Polls show plurality/majority of independents are opposed to the impeachment inquiry.

There is very little chance the whole thing works out for the dems. There would have to be a genuine bombshell.

Trump is a slime creature king. Getting into a slime fight with him is stupid. Everyone already knows he is slimy. If you are slimy too, well he is the slime king...YOU CANT WIN.
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blumenkraft

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Re: Elections 2020 USA
« Reply #127 on: September 29, 2019, 09:03:15 AM »
GSY, you are always quick condemning things. How about being constructive for once.

What should be done in your opinion? Why and how and to what end?
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wili

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Re: Elections 2020 USA
« Reply #128 on: September 29, 2019, 03:59:40 PM »
The tides are shifting quickly.

"...increases in support for impeachment ...The Morning Consult poll saw an increase from 66 percent to 79 percent among Democratic voters, 33 percent to 39 percent among Independent voters, and 5 percent to 10 percent among Republican voters..."

https://www.vox.com/2019/9/27/20886877/impeachment-polls-voter-support-growing-nancy-pelosi-donald-trump

Engaging in a very well justified lawful constitutional process that was designed by the founders to curb abuses of power in the highest office in the land is far from 'getting into slime.'

It is, in fact, a constitutional and patriotic duty. And it is very sad, indeed, that it has come to the point that such ultimate measures now must be taken in the face of such overwhelming corruption.
"A force de chercher de bonnes raisons, on en trouve; on les dit; et après on y tient, non pas tant parce qu'elles sont bonnes que pour ne pas se démentir." Choderlos de Laclos "You struggle to come up with some valid reasons, then cling to them, not because they're good, but just to not back down."

blumenkraft

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Re: Elections 2020 USA
« Reply #129 on: September 29, 2019, 04:13:28 PM »
It always amazes me how easily the hivemind is to be flipped.
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wili

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Re: Elections 2020 USA
« Reply #130 on: September 29, 2019, 09:13:46 PM »
Poll: Majority of Americans say impeachment inquiry into Trump is necessary

https://www.cnn.com/2019/09/29/politics/impeachment-inquiry-trump-cbs-poll/index.html

"...Among Independents, 49% approve and 51% disapprove, the poll found..."

(Which is a statistically insignificant difference.)
"A force de chercher de bonnes raisons, on en trouve; on les dit; et après on y tient, non pas tant parce qu'elles sont bonnes que pour ne pas se démentir." Choderlos de Laclos "You struggle to come up with some valid reasons, then cling to them, not because they're good, but just to not back down."

TerryM

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Re: Elections 2020 USA
« Reply #131 on: September 29, 2019, 11:58:47 PM »
Poll: Majority of Americans say impeachment inquiry into Trump is necessary

https://www.cnn.com/2019/09/29/politics/impeachment-inquiry-trump-cbs-poll/index.html

"...Among Independents, 49% approve and 51% disapprove, the poll found..."

(Which is a statistically insignificant difference.)

From the same linked article:
"A two-thirds majority in the Senate is required to convict and remove a president from office -- which has [/size]never successfully happened.[/color]"




bbr2314

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Re: Elections 2020 USA
« Reply #132 on: September 30, 2019, 01:30:12 AM »
Poll: Majority of Americans say impeachment inquiry into Trump is necessary

https://www.cnn.com/2019/09/29/politics/impeachment-inquiry-trump-cbs-poll/index.html

"...Among Independents, 49% approve and 51% disapprove, the poll found..."

(Which is a statistically insignificant difference.)

From the same linked article:
"A two-thirds majority in the Senate is required to convict and remove a president from office -- which has [/size]never successfully happened.[/color]"
Exactly. It is such a farce.

wili

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Re: Elections 2020 USA
« Reply #133 on: September 30, 2019, 05:23:50 AM »
Lotsa stuff that has never happened before is happening pretty much every day on many fronts...

'It has not happened before, therefore it can never happen...' is, I'm pretty sure, some kind of logical fallacy, but I can't think of the formal name of it right now, and my search engine seems to be on strike right now! :)

(I've never written that last statement before, by the way...so I guess it is impossible that I just did now!! :) :) :) )

ETA: Ah, found it. It seems to be a variation on Normalcy Bias: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Normalcy_bias

.....

And things do seem to be shifting rather quickly indeed. The congressional Republicans have so far presented a fairly unified front in their support of Trump, pretty much whatever he did. But now, after Trump essentially called for a civil war, at least one Republican Representative (so far), Adam Kinzinger, has called the 'president's' statement 'beyond repugnant.' We'll see where this goes, both on the street and in the congress...but it is hard not to notice that, again, a lot going on here is pretty f'n un-precedented.  https://www.axios.com/rep-kinzinger-slams-trump-democrats-civil-war-quote-7a042acb-f6d2-4e86-8f9e-53dea5b7a327.html
« Last Edit: September 30, 2019, 06:19:57 AM by wili »
"A force de chercher de bonnes raisons, on en trouve; on les dit; et après on y tient, non pas tant parce qu'elles sont bonnes que pour ne pas se démentir." Choderlos de Laclos "You struggle to come up with some valid reasons, then cling to them, not because they're good, but just to not back down."

Neven

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Re: Elections 2020 USA
« Reply #134 on: September 30, 2019, 09:22:12 AM »
You struggle to come up with some valid reasons, then cling to them, not because they're good, but just to not back down.

Impeachment should have been done earlier and on other grounds than Russiagate or now Ukrainegate. Now it's too late, and Trump has to be beaten at the ballot box, promising policies that benefit the American people. Oh yeah, and following through on those promises. Only Sanders might do that.

I find this a good discussion on impeachment:

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blumenkraft

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Re: Elections 2020 USA
« Reply #135 on: September 30, 2019, 09:30:57 AM »
Exactly. It is such a farce.

So you think it will damage the president?
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Re: Elections 2020 USA
« Reply #136 on: September 30, 2019, 09:35:30 AM »
So you think it will damage the president?

It will probably help him, because it reinforces the narrative that Trump is an outsider, a man of the people, and the establishment wants to take him out in any undemocratic way it can. Russiagate failed and reinforced the narrative. Ukrainegate will do the same. Try impeaching him on real grounds after that, like the emoluments, general corruption, war crimes, etc.

It's not going to happen, and that's the whole idea. Because Corporate Democrats would rather have Trump at the helm than a real progressive populist like Sanders who will turn over their gravy train. Trump Derangement Syndrome is great for ratings, great for righteous indignation, great for weapons sales, and great for distracting from the real issues (and thus keeping the real left out of positions of power).
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blumenkraft

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Re: Elections 2020 USA
« Reply #137 on: September 30, 2019, 10:00:23 AM »
Try impeaching him on real grounds after that, like the emoluments, general corruption, war crimes, etc.

Yes! IMHO the Dems should hire lawyers and investigators and shoot from any cannon they could possibly get their hands on. I want to see a firework of accusations. This way you suck the air out of the room for Trump. This will limit his ability to bullshit the public.

Again, this is not only about activating Democratic voters. Deactivating Republican voters must also always be part of the strategy. And a Trump in defense mode will do that, i'm sure.

I agree this might not happen in this intensity, but now at least there is a possibility, which we hadn't had before.

And even if the Dems pursue a less ambitious impeachment process, something will stick. You can see signs of opposition even in the GOP as soon as now. I can see this getting worse for POTUS.
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Re: Elections 2020 USA
« Reply #138 on: September 30, 2019, 11:31:42 AM »
Yes! IMHO the Dems should hire lawyers and investigators and shoot from any cannon they could possibly get their hands on. I want to see a firework of accusations. This way you suck the air out of the room for Trump. This will limit his ability to bullshit the public.

Yes, that's what Brooks argues in the video I posted above, and I think it's a good argument (if it works like that). But it's the only one, and the thing that triggered it all, Ukrainegate, is about the worst possible thing to impeach Trump on, from a PR-strategy perspective.

The way to beat Trump, is to show that he is very much part of the establishment, not outside of it. But then you have to offer an alternative, and Warren isn't it, Biden most certainly isn't. Only Sanders is, lacking a younger version. But the Corporate Democrats and media will do everything they can to keep Sanders and his movement out.
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blumenkraft

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Re: Elections 2020 USA
« Reply #139 on: September 30, 2019, 01:47:37 PM »
I'm looking forward to seeing how this all plays out. It might go into a direction we don't yet think off.

The ones who still believe Trump is not representing the establishment are so braindead they can't possibly be convinced anyway. ;)
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Re: Elections 2020 USA
« Reply #140 on: September 30, 2019, 02:06:44 PM »
D'oh!!

Did Neven just 'hoist me on my own petard'!  :o

Even far-right Republicans are starting to get disgusted with Trump.

Again, I am with Sanders and AOC and most others on the non-corporate left of the Dems in calling for impeachment.

Those of you against it are aligning yourselves with the likes of former WSJ opinion writer David Brooks.
"A force de chercher de bonnes raisons, on en trouve; on les dit; et après on y tient, non pas tant parce qu'elles sont bonnes que pour ne pas se démentir." Choderlos de Laclos "You struggle to come up with some valid reasons, then cling to them, not because they're good, but just to not back down."

blumenkraft

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Re: Elections 2020 USA
« Reply #141 on: September 30, 2019, 02:13:58 PM »
Juan Williams: Trump's grip on GOP Senate may come loose

Quote
Next year, 23 Senate Republicans will be up for reelection with Trump at the top of the ticket.

Murphy warned that, given Trump’s antics, Senate Republicans are thinking they are “going to lose Colorado with Cory Gardner. We’re going to lose Maine with Susan Collins. We’re going to lose Arizona with Martha McSally. And the Democrats will put the Senate very much in play.”

https://thehill.com/opinion/white-house/463573-juan-williams-trumps-grip-on-gop-senate-may-come-loose?fbclid=IwAR2ockfYKTqzkmJ0_HoDGtAOPTOe_KREdD8Qi0UT4nzHI-HWahq0d9eqKQs
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Re: Elections 2020 USA
« Reply #142 on: September 30, 2019, 02:18:23 PM »
It's not that I'm against it, I just think that it's too late, and it's a (probably deliberate) mistake to let Bidengate finally be the trigger. But maybe there are some advantages in relation to the election.  Let's hope so. If I would have to bet, I'd say that Trump is going to get re-elected anyway.
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Re: Elections 2020 USA
« Reply #143 on: September 30, 2019, 02:32:46 PM »
Experience with Netanyahu tells me that the impeachment attempt won't do much to reduce Trump's support base. If anything, it might cause that base to "close the ranks" and be more motivated to vote. If there are many independents/swing votes, this might help sway them. But I wouldn't count on it.
It's not that I am against it though. It's the right thing to do, just don't expect it to actually pay off or be helpful.
« Last Edit: October 01, 2019, 10:00:12 AM by oren »

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Re: Elections 2020 USA
« Reply #144 on: September 30, 2019, 03:34:42 PM »
Donald Trump's "Civil War" quote tweet is actually grounds for impeachment, says Harvard Law professor

Link >> https://www.newsweek.com/trump-civil-war-tweet-grounds-impeachment-1462044?piano_t=1

gnihihihihi
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Re: Elections 2020 USA
« Reply #145 on: September 30, 2019, 08:07:42 PM »
Quote
Sen. Bernie Sanders to younger voters: "The older generation votes in significantly higher numbers than your generation -- and if you could vote at the same rate as the older folks, we could transform this country."
Link >> https://twitter.com/thehill/status/1178605403338244096
« Last Edit: September 30, 2019, 08:51:17 PM by blumenkraft »
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Re: Elections 2020 USA
« Reply #146 on: September 30, 2019, 09:48:01 PM »
President Pelosi?

https://www.politico.com/news/2019/09/30/trump-mike-pence-impeachment-007838

Quote
Trump thrust his relationship with the vice president back into the spotlight last week, when the embattled president nudged reporters during a United Nations news conference to “ask for VP Pence’s conversation, because he had a couple conversations also” with Ukrainian officials.

The out-of-the-blue reference triggered questions about the vice president’s role in the latest mess and the unusual relationship between the pair of leaders. If Trump falls alone, Pence becomes the 46th president of the United States — a development many mainstream Republicans would prefer. If Trump and Pence go down together or in quick succession, it’s President Nancy Pelosi — a prospect that would not be lost on Senate Republicans voting on whether to oust their party’s leaders.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/outlook/2019/09/30/president-pelosi-it-could-happen/

Quote
What happens when a Democratic speaker of the House — third in line to the presidency, according to the Presidential Succession Act of 1947 — is suddenly thrust into the Oval Office, succeeding a Republican president and vice president who resign, embroiled in scandal?
Such a scenario is attracting attention — #PresidentPelosi was trending on social media after last week’s announcement of an impeachment inquiry — even though it may seem far-fetched that President Trump and Vice President Pence would be forced from office over abuse of power related to the administration’s dealings with Ukraine or other misdeeds.

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Re: Elections 2020 USA
« Reply #147 on: September 30, 2019, 10:46:20 PM »
Yes! IMHO the Dems should hire lawyers and investigators and shoot from any cannon they could possibly get their hands on. I want to see a firework of accusations. This way you suck the air out of the room for Trump. This will limit his ability to bullshit the public.

Yes, that's what Brooks argues in the video I posted above, and I think it's a good argument (if it works like that). But it's the only one, and the thing that triggered it all, Ukrainegate, is about the worst possible thing to impeach Trump on, from a PR-strategy perspective.

The way to beat Trump, is to show that he is very much part of the establishment, not outside of it. But then you have to offer an alternative, and Warren isn't it, Biden most certainly isn't. Only Sanders is, lacking a younger version. But the Corporate Democrats and media will do everything they can to keep Sanders and his movement out.
I think Buttigieg could win, I think Biden could win (less likely), but I think they may end up picking Warren and losing again.

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Re: Elections 2020 USA
« Reply #148 on: September 30, 2019, 11:25:36 PM »
wili
Only Andrew Johnson, Richard Nixon & Bill Clinton have been impeached by the House, Donald Trump will soon be the fourth in the last 230 years. I don't fear VP Pence becoming the incumbent in the next election only because I see no way for the Senate trial to succeed. I actually don't  believe Pelosi intended the impeachment to succeed.
What I do fear is that "The Donald" stands a much better chance of being re-elected now that Pelosi has (over)played her hand.


The time for arguing for or against the Democrats trying this tactic is past. Pelosi, who I see as an unsavory character, has committed the party & there's no way back, at least none that I can see.


The Democratic Party's internal polls must have painted a much darker picture of the coming election than anything we've I've seen, or the party would have waited and let the voters remove Trump. It makes little sense to impeach a President who you believe is about to lose an election.


A far more likely scenario is that Pelosi never intended to succeed in removing Trump by impeachment, but rather is hoping to injure him in the polls. I hope she's right, but if she is it indicates that the Democratic leadership felt that Trump is unbeatable in 2020 unless he can be damaged by the coming trials.


To say that this is a daring move is an understatement. If the independents become convinced that the "establishment" is picking on Trump, Democrats will take a huge shellacking in the election. Trump could emerge with Republican Supermajorities in House & Senate.


The Democrats will win in the House, Trump will win the Senate. Rather than judging the validity of the charges or the responses that follow, I'll be trying to assess their effect on the voting public.
Terry

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Re: Elections 2020 USA
« Reply #149 on: October 01, 2019, 12:07:01 AM »
I got the ice polls correct this year so maybe I can take another guess and make a trifecta.

He gets impeached ! There will be enough key figures involved willing to cooperate. Their testimony is solid and deadly. The Senate can’t hide without risking a Senate turnover. We will see a Pence President because I believe the republicans can save him ,that is not impeach him, even if the dems do include him in the dragnet.