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TerryM

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Re: Political theatre/wrestling
« Reply #150 on: November 21, 2019, 05:48:30 AM »
Without Russiagate & 'The Impeachment' whoever ran as a Democrat would have easily won the coming election. Now there's a race, possibly a tight race & conceivably a losing race.
The candidates wouldn't even have needed large donations.


How would Big Donors react?
How would Pelosi flex her monied muscles?
What would become of the DNC?
Terry

Tom_Mazanec

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Re: Political theatre/wrestling
« Reply #151 on: November 26, 2019, 04:41:21 PM »
Yes, yes, this is a far right publication.
But it has an interesting view of the election and the Olympics next year that just might be spot on.

Transgenderism and the Olympics
https://www.americanthinker.com/articles/2019/11/transgenderism_and_the_olympics.html
Quote
Worse for them, this disastrous inner debate will occur in public, during the titanic political face-off between an extreme progressive who’ll be running against the more traditional Trump.  This controversy is sure to deepen America’s left-right rift, shattering the Democrats’ fragile progressive coalition into a myriad shards of small hyper-special interest groups. Especially hard hit will be those who insist that they’re truly special and actually deserve -- demand -- support from all progressives.

This could inflame the election like it hasn't been since 1860.
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TerryM

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Re: Political theatre/wrestling
« Reply #152 on: November 26, 2019, 08:15:26 PM »
Yes, yes, this is a far right publication.
But it has an interesting view of the election and the Olympics next year that just might be spot on.

Transgenderism and the Olympics
https://www.americanthinker.com/articles/2019/11/transgenderism_and_the_olympics.html
Quote
Worse for them, this disastrous inner debate will occur in public, during the titanic political face-off between an extreme progressive who’ll be running against the more traditional Trump.  This controversy is sure to deepen America’s left-right rift, shattering the Democrats’ fragile progressive coalition into a myriad shards of small hyper-special interest groups. Especially hard hit will be those who insist that they’re truly special and actually deserve -- demand -- support from all progressives.

This could inflame the election like it hasn't been since 1860.


I think this one's going to get very hot regardless of who wins.
Hillary's faction refused to accept the results in 2016.
Should we expect more from Trump's supporters? - or another losing Democratic effort?


Tossing out democratic norms might not have been the wisest decision made after the 2016 election. I wasn't happy when Gore relinquished his claim to the Presidency, but Hillary and the DNC have overdone the whole "injured party" thing, and it's unclear if any candidate will be recognised as the "People's Choice".


I'm unsure what direction this will take - I don't expect an armed revolt, but I do expect a lot of loud murmurings & difficulties in passing legislation that's important to one party, but not the other. ( The dems just recently slid an extension of the Patriot Act through with nary a peep, so cooperation is possible,) Damnit!


Terry




blumenkraft

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Re: Political theatre/wrestling
« Reply #153 on: November 27, 2019, 02:47:32 PM »
I find it difficult to blame anyone who has lived their whole life under a constant barrage of propaganda for succumbing to it.

Terry, did you just kick Kant in the belly. Why did you do that? :P

Me knowing about corruption is not a function of living in Germany. I had to listen to the same conservative BS than everyone else. The bullshit is more suttle here; you need to read between the lines but it's there and for everyone to see who is willing to open their eyes. In the US you can spot it even better because it's more obvious.

Quote
Propaganda is very powerful stuff, and without some window to the outside it's very difficult to get, let alone maintain your bearings.

Yes, it's taking effort to open windows to the outside. There are rights and duties in a free society. Consider it a duty to become an adult citizen.
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blumenkraft

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Re: Political theatre/wrestling
« Reply #154 on: November 27, 2019, 02:49:13 PM »
You know the old story: Nazi clothed in black walks with Molotov cocktail to demo only to then blame Antifa.

Same story, different actors:

Quote
Recently a crowd of protesters disrupted a speech by Elizabeth Warren. The activists might have seemed grassroots, but they weren’t

Link >> https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2019/nov/27/billionare-funded-protests-america
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Florifulgurator

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Re: Political theatre/wrestling
« Reply #155 on: November 27, 2019, 05:47:46 PM »
You know the old story: Nazi clothed in black walks with Molotov cocktail to demo only to then blame Antifa.

Same story, different actors:

Quote
Recently a crowd of protesters disrupted a speech by Elizabeth Warren. The activists might have seemed grassroots, but they weren’t

Link >> https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2019/nov/27/billionare-funded-protests-america
Excellent article. Bears repeating.
BTW (ceterum censeo) there are also Russian and Ukrainian billionaires...
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blumenkraft

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Re: Political theatre/wrestling
« Reply #156 on: December 01, 2019, 06:07:58 AM »
Conservative Think Tank Tweets, Quickly Deletes Conspiracy Theory About Ilhan Omar

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A prominent pro-Israel think tank accused Rep. Ilhan Omar (D-Minn.) of being a foreign agent who shared state secrets with Iran. The wild accusation was provided without supporting evidence but linked to a story originally sourced from a news outlet owned by Saudi Arabia.

The Foundation for Defense of Democracies (FDD) is the think tank in question–a non-profit and officially non-partisan organization based in Washington, D.C. whose donors are largely Republican billionaires.

Link >> https://lawandcrime.com/high-profile/conservative-think-tank-tweets-quickly-deletes-conspiracy-theory-about-ilhan-omar/
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vox_mundi

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Re: Political theatre/wrestling
« Reply #157 on: December 03, 2019, 01:12:38 PM »
Rightwing ‘Bill Mill’ Accused of Sowing Racist and White Supremacist Policies
https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2019/dec/02/alec-white-supremacy-conservatives-racism

ALEC, the rightwing network that brings conservative lawmakers together with corporate lobbyists to create model legislation that is cloned across the US, has been accused of spreading racist and white supremacist policies targeted at minority communities.

A report published on Tuesday by the Center for Constitutional Rights (CCR) and other advocacy groups charges ALEC with propagating white supremacy.

https://ccrjustice.org/

In one of the sharpest criticisms yet levelled at the controversial “bill mill”, the authors warn that:

Quote
... “conservative and corporate interests have captured our political process to harness profit, further entrench white supremacy in the law, and target the safety, human rights and self-governance of marginalised communities”.

... The network, it says, amounts to a “shadow state apparatus” in which “private industry seizes control of the authority of the state, writing legislation and public policy for the general public behind the closed doors of a CEO suite”.
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Neven

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Re: Political theatre/wrestling
« Reply #158 on: December 08, 2019, 01:48:57 PM »
That whole impeachment stuff is so incredibly dumb, helps Trump and the Republicans, and creates precedents that will boomerang in horrible ways in the near future. The law professor featured in this clip explains it perfectly:



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wili

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Re: Political theatre/wrestling
« Reply #159 on: December 08, 2019, 03:46:11 PM »
Turley is a partisan hack. He said pretty much the opposite of all those points when he argue in favor of the Clinton impeachment.
"A force de chercher de bonnes raisons, on en trouve; on les dit; et après on y tient, non pas tant parce qu'elles sont bonnes que pour ne pas se démentir." Choderlos de Laclos "You struggle to come up with some valid reasons, then cling to them, not because they're good, but just to not back down."

Neven

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Re: Political theatre/wrestling
« Reply #160 on: December 08, 2019, 04:09:59 PM »
Turley is a partisan hack. He said pretty much the opposite of all those points when he argue in favor of the Clinton impeachment.

Well, if that is true, he was wrong back then (Clinton shouldn't have been impeached, but he should've stepped down). But he's right now. Furthermore, the implication is that if he has flip-flopped, so is everybody on 'the other side'. Which is probably true, because it's all tribalism. And that's why I put it in this thread.

It's all theatre, a show to distract from the real issues.
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wili

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Re: Political theatre/wrestling
« Reply #161 on: December 08, 2019, 06:17:43 PM »
I'd call that false equivalence, but we obviously disagree (and to be clear, I am have been deeply disappointed in much that the Dems have and have not done over the years...or rather, I would be disappointed if I ever had much of an expectation of them doing much of the right thing as long as they are dominated by corporate interests)
"A force de chercher de bonnes raisons, on en trouve; on les dit; et après on y tient, non pas tant parce qu'elles sont bonnes que pour ne pas se démentir." Choderlos de Laclos "You struggle to come up with some valid reasons, then cling to them, not because they're good, but just to not back down."

Neven

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Re: Political theatre/wrestling
« Reply #162 on: December 08, 2019, 06:47:28 PM »
I'd call that false equivalence,

That's what political theatre is all about. This whole impeachment thing is certainly a circus, and possibly a clusterfuck.
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kassy

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Re: Political theatre/wrestling
« Reply #163 on: December 09, 2019, 03:52:38 PM »
File under theatre because this is crap wrestling, no one is really trying. In proper wrestling you have heroes and villains but here you have only villains and plain incompetents.

Climate change: UN negotiators 'playing politics' amid global crisis

The talks - now in their final week - are bogged down in technical details as key countries seek to delay efforts to increase their pledges, observers say.

...

Inside the convention centre, the central question of increasing country pledges to cut their carbon has been pushed aside as negotiators resort to protecting national interests.

...

the richer countries were supposed to undertake specific carbon cutting actions in the years between 2015 and 2020, which many haven't yet achieved.

Here in Madrid a group of countries including China, India and Saudi Arabia are pushing for these pre-2020 commitments be adhered to - even if it means achieving them post-2020.

There is frustration that countries are focussing on trying to get advantages in the talks, instead of working together to increase ambition.

"The Paris agreement is clear: all countries agreed to deliver new climate targets by 2020, and as the recent UNEP emissions gap report made clear, the onus is on the top 10 polluters to deliver," said Laurence Tubiana, one of the key architects of the Paris agreement, now with the European Climate Foundation.

...

The worry is that many of these historical credits are not real reductions. (see article for details but we need to stop using measures that are not grounded in the underlying science.)

https://www.bbc.com/news/science-environment-50706236

Just some short quotes but whatever they promise to do they probably won´t do.

So we have political theatre which just plain distracts like impeachment and brexit and these summits.

It pisses me off that at our current state they all are playing like there is something to win.
And we lose more time.
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Neven

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Re: Political theatre/wrestling
« Reply #164 on: December 22, 2019, 11:26:41 PM »
Why do people go along with the impeachment stupidity?

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blumenkraft

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Re: Political theatre/wrestling
« Reply #165 on: December 23, 2019, 06:55:14 AM »
The Dems are not allowed to impeach the fascist and therefore we should let him walk away unchecked. Wait for a third party to evolve and then you can have the moral authority to obey the law.

Yeah, that's exactly the Jimmy Dore logic i hate so much. Dude's living in La La Land.
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sidd

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Re: Political theatre/wrestling
« Reply #166 on: December 23, 2019, 08:32:47 AM »
Re:  Dems are not allowed to impeach

I thought they just did ?

Meanwhile out in flyover Trump country, i was at a bar the other night, shooting a lil stick. Buncha farmer types in there, college basketball on the TV, news ticker crawls across with sumpn about impeachment. My opponent pauses in the middle of chalking his cue, says "They scared they cant win an election."  Bartender watching us play (slo night) replies "They putting on a show, dude. They want everyone to watch their show, and mebbe they get more of us to vote for em. But as far as shows go, Trump got a better show."

So i ask him, "You gonna vote for him ?" (i know the crowd well enuf to get away with that)

Bartender goes, "I never vote. But if i do vote it'll be for Trump, just to piss the democrats off."

Thats pretty much the attitude. Dunno if they will all come out and vote in the numbers they did in 2016. I'll tell you sumpn tho, there's slightly fewer panhandlers about and i see the help wanted signs with bigger numbers on them. Fewer people on the street, my construction buddies are bitching about payroll going up, cant get a crew easily anymore just driving past the hardware stores and picking up itinerant labour. Bookie in that bar tells me people are doin better, wasting a little more money in his direction.

We shall see.

sidd

blumenkraft

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Re: Political theatre/wrestling
« Reply #167 on: December 23, 2019, 09:16:12 AM »
"I never vote. But if i do vote it'll be for Trump, just to piss the democrats off."

Risk democracy and freedom and vote for a fascist because owning the libs is oh so cool. Those people are pathetic. Their hole thinking is reduced to scapegoating.

Sorry, you have to deal with this shit IRL, Sidd. :(

But have you watched the video? Because "Dems are not allowed to impeach" is not what i'm saying. This is one of JD's braindumps.
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Neven

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Re: Political theatre/wrestling
« Reply #168 on: December 23, 2019, 07:12:37 PM »
The Dems are not allowed to impeach the fascist and therefore we should let him walk away unchecked. Wait for a third party to evolve and then you can have the moral authority to obey the law.

Yeah, that's exactly the Jimmy Dore logic i hate so much. Dude's living in La La Land.

Except that it isn't what he's saying. At all.

Do you really believe that the current impeachment endeavour is anything other than political theatre? Why would anyone want to (blindly) support Corporate Democrats this way? All you're doing, is helping the fascist.

This isn't a mistake, it's done on purpose, and Jimmy Dore is one of many people trying to make this clear. The system that brought us Trump, must not be changed. Hence the wrestling/theatre, to distract from real issues.
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sidd

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Re: Political theatre/wrestling
« Reply #169 on: December 23, 2019, 10:58:32 PM »
Re: Sorry, you have to deal with this

Hey. I live with these people. I know these people. They help me out, and i try to do the same. Political differences don't mean i hate them.

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TerryM

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Re: Political theatre/wrestling
« Reply #170 on: December 24, 2019, 03:02:12 PM »
There is <1 yr. before the next president is elected.


The Republican Senate isn't likely to turn on one of their own even if they should oppose his policies.


Shining a spotlight onto Ukrainian shenanigans is as likely to expose Democratic politicians as it is to capturing Republicans or Trump's staff caught in some nefarious act.
.......................


The DNC isn't as concerned with winning the next presidency as it is with keeping the donations flowing. Winning an impeachment gains them nothing, but assuring a tightly fought election will assure that the donor base is energised and that dollars make their way into DNC's coffers.


The largest donors want things that democrats have spent a lifetime fighting against. Private Prisons, Private Healthcare, draconian laws against individuals, ineffective prosecution of white collar crime, expanding inequality, a stronger and much more expensive military, fewer safety regulations, weaker environmental protections. The list goes on and on.


It costs money to keep reforms off the table, and the corporations will pay if they believe that the DNC can still deliver. A strong Republican government opposed by weak and ineffective Democrats, this is what most donors dream of.


The farcical "Impeachment" shows that the DNC still wields control. That Democratic politicians will still toe the line when the DNC snaps the whip. If the DNC can prove their control then the donors will keep the trough full, plenty for everyone who jumps when ordered to.


Winning isn't required, just proof that the DNC's edicts are still being obeyed.
Terry

Florifulgurator

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Re: Political theatre/wrestling
« Reply #171 on: December 26, 2019, 04:31:01 PM »
Turley is a partisan hack. He said pretty much the opposite of all those points when he argue in favor of the Clinton impeachment.
Funny how Dore likes Turley. :) Perfectly fits the picture. A virtual friend of mine had him as professor: "so full of himself...". Actually he is a great rhetor, a grandmaster of the Gish gallop, making wannabe intellectuals like Dore nod their heads off... - But when he said "academic" and when he got perplexed that the other professor had that old dictionary at hand... you could smell the academic hollowness of the man.
« Last Edit: December 26, 2019, 04:53:16 PM by Florifulgurator »
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Florifulgurator

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Re: Political theatre/wrestling
« Reply #172 on: December 26, 2019, 04:45:03 PM »
Do you really believe that the current impeachment endeavour is anything other than political theatre?
Do you think that following the U.S. Constitution almost (*) literally is "political theatre"?

While open to interpretation in details, the Constitution has some logic and intent. You don't need to be an Ivy League professor to understand that if Trump can't be impeached, nobody can be impeached.

However I admit that I'm not sure if this wasn't the inconsistency that Kurt Gödel reportedly found the night before his citizenship exam. :)

Maybe have a look at the full hearing, not just Turley? I've seen/heard it all while doing house work. Here it is, timestamped at my favorite professor:
https://youtu.be/MUSQaYHJAiI?t=5145


-------------------------
(*) Alas they dropped the wörd "bribery" after the dictionary fuss in the hearing.
« Last Edit: December 26, 2019, 05:09:11 PM by Florifulgurator »
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Neven

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Re: Political theatre/wrestling
« Reply #173 on: December 27, 2019, 10:04:22 AM »
Do you really believe that the current impeachment endeavour is anything other than political theatre?
Do you think that following the U.S. Constitution almost (*) literally is "political theatre"?

No, I think that selecting this particular reason for impeachment (ie Ukrainegate) is political theatre, and so is the timing, just before the election year. When they could've started on week 1 with stuff like emoluments and so on. But hey, don't want to set a precedent based on that, do we? So many Corporate Democrats would get in trouble, given that they are just as corrupt as Trump. In fact, they're all buddies behind the scenes.

Like Jimmy Dore says, and he's 100% right (as stupid as he is): They can't fight Trump on policies, because he is doing the kind of stuff their donors want, and so all they have, is political theatre and fake resistance.

But people fall for it, even self-proclaimed geniuses like Martin Gisser, so what's not to like?

In the meantime, we have war criminal George Bush dancing on TV with Ellen DeGeneres.
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blumenkraft

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Re: Political theatre/wrestling
« Reply #174 on: December 27, 2019, 11:08:19 AM »
Yes, they can't impeach Dump on his corruption because they are also corrupt. That's a function of the system and missing anti-corruption laws.

And yes, they can't impeach on Syria because it's just the same foreign policy they do it. That's a function of US imperialism.

Also, the kids in cages can't be an impeachment reason. Because Obama did the same in quality, only fewer in quantity.

All of those and more would be better reasons to impeach. Goes without saying.

But really, Neven, this reason they picked, is legit. It's about the separation of power. When Congress decides on something, the president cannot just ignore that and, say, withhold funds.

You have to establish that, or you are opening doors for fascists. Incidentally, there is an actual fascist running for president in 2020 who already successfully weakened democracy in the last years.
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Re: Political theatre/wrestling
« Reply #175 on: December 27, 2019, 12:21:20 PM »
Another thing about impeachment, if you do it because you don’t like the president then you open the door to impeachment every four years.
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blumenkraft

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Re: Political theatre/wrestling
« Reply #176 on: December 27, 2019, 01:09:05 PM »
Tom, you are implying there was no reason. This is just ignorant for the reasons mentioned in my post above.
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Re: Political theatre/wrestling
« Reply #177 on: December 27, 2019, 01:12:19 PM »
The trouble is, there is always a reason. That is the nature of the kind of person who would seek the presidency.
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blumenkraft

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Re: Political theatre/wrestling
« Reply #178 on: December 27, 2019, 01:14:25 PM »
There is a difference between legit reason and "reason".
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Re: Political theatre/wrestling
« Reply #179 on: December 27, 2019, 01:16:39 PM »
Yes, but I am afraid that is a slippery slope. The GOP should have thought of that with Clinton.
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Re: Political theatre/wrestling
« Reply #180 on: December 27, 2019, 01:33:28 PM »
All of those and more would be better reasons to impeach. Goes without saying.

But really, Neven, this reason they picked, is legit.

If there are better reasons, but you pick the dumbest reason, it looks kind of weak, doesn't it? In fact, the optics are terrible, because it only emphasizes Trump's BS narrative of him being an outsider, and therefore the establishment is out to get him, any way they can (Russiagate, Ukrainegate).

Never mind the fact that it will never pass the Senate, and that horrible zombie Pelosi now trying to slither her way out of it with more political theatre!

You might say it's dumb democrats, but they're doing it on purpose. It's all about keeping Sanders out.
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Re: Political theatre/wrestling
« Reply #181 on: December 27, 2019, 01:57:56 PM »
I totally agree on what you said if you leave "Ukrainegate" outta there. It's not a $gate. Objectively seen, it is a) valid and b) when not addressed causes harm to democracy. How can this be not enough?

Quote
Never mind the fact that it will never pass the Senate

That is true. But it creates accountability. One or another senator will lose their seat over this for sure. Bernie will need any Senate seat for his agenda and then it will be worth it.

Quote
Pelosi

Don't get me started on that one. Have you heard the comment on Bush recently? She is really the worst!

But not turning impeachment over to the senate just yet is kind of a clever political move. The longer this stands, the more the public will find out about POTUS' wrongdoings.

And also it apparently takes away from Dump's lifetime. I'm all for that. :)
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blumenkraft

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Re: Political theatre/wrestling
« Reply #182 on: December 27, 2019, 02:01:05 PM »
Yes, but I am afraid that is a slippery slope.

No slippery slope here. One is written in the law, the other in a right-wing think tank.
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Tom_Mazanec

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Re: Political theatre/wrestling
« Reply #183 on: December 27, 2019, 04:57:16 PM »
What are “legit” reasons? What is a high crime or misdemeanor? Didn’t Clinton commit perjury? If I did that, I would be behind bars.
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TerryM

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Re: Political theatre/wrestling
« Reply #184 on: December 27, 2019, 05:36:38 PM »
Clinton's impeachment was BS. Trump's is payback.


The whole thing is nothing but political theater because the party leadership (the DNC) have no expectation of winning.
As was previously noted, the purpose is to lower Trump's numbers in the next election, not to gain a conviction. Prosecution to ruin someone's reputation is reprehensible. Imagine it being done to you or a friend.


We'll vote for Tulsi or Saunders, none of the others deserve consideration, or our vote.


FWIW we'd have cast an anti-Trump vote prior to the impeachment BS.
I'm probably not the only life time Democrat that feels this way.


Tom.
On another thread it was mentioned that disrupting a pigeon's flight, or defacing a hamburger were made misdemeanors in Nevada, misdemeanors worth 90 days i jail on conviction. Designed to lock up the homeless, but certainly impeachable offences. :o


I probably should defend Tulsi, but the accusations are so preposterous they'll sink under their own weight.


Terry

wili

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Re: Political theatre/wrestling
« Reply #185 on: December 27, 2019, 10:03:51 PM »
What activity by a president would you consider to rise to the level of impeachment, then?

Just curious...
"A force de chercher de bonnes raisons, on en trouve; on les dit; et après on y tient, non pas tant parce qu'elles sont bonnes que pour ne pas se démentir." Choderlos de Laclos "You struggle to come up with some valid reasons, then cling to them, not because they're good, but just to not back down."

TerryM

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Re: Political theatre/wrestling
« Reply #186 on: December 27, 2019, 10:44:16 PM »
What activity by a president would you consider to rise to the level of impeachment, then?

Just curious...


I'm unsure wili.


Neither Clinton's entrapment nor Pelosi's persecution by prosecution come close.


Bush Jr. needed to be tried for war crimes - torture if you insist on specifics.
Reagan & Bush the elder for actions and coverups in Iran & in Nicaragua.


Johnson and Truman's presidencies deserved a serious review & I'm glad that Nixon was shown the door.


I've limited my selections to sitting presidents, but had McCain grabbed the brass ring his prior actions stunk up Washington, and it ain't easy to stink so strongly that it's noticeable in that poisonous miasma.


Malicious prosecution is something I've personally experienced, so I may particularly sensitive to its use. If they'd been successful in my case I'd have spent the greater part of my life in a cage.
Terry

wili

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Re: Political theatre/wrestling
« Reply #187 on: December 28, 2019, 07:43:16 AM »
Thanks for the insights. Glad you stayed out of the slammer.
"A force de chercher de bonnes raisons, on en trouve; on les dit; et après on y tient, non pas tant parce qu'elles sont bonnes que pour ne pas se démentir." Choderlos de Laclos "You struggle to come up with some valid reasons, then cling to them, not because they're good, but just to not back down."

TerryM

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Re: Political theatre/wrestling
« Reply #188 on: December 28, 2019, 06:35:41 PM »
Thanks for the insights. Glad you stayed out of the slammer.
Me too!


My lawyer got rich, but he was a good guy. The only problem was that in the process I got poor. :P


We remained close friends for years and he provided help with incidentals that cropped up on a pro-bono basis until his death in the 90's.


With Tom it wasn't so much if you'd done the crime as whether you could afford his time. :)


I had a parole officer that was livid when I told him that Tom would be handling a certain matter. He thought I was cheating the system because I could afford to defend myself.


I was kept aware of my ex-parole officer's comings and goings through a mutual friend. He suffered a disastrous divorce and died lonely and broke. If he'd had his way I'd have done a 1 to 10.
I didn't suffer when I learned of his passing. ;D
Terry