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TerryM

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Re: Political theatre/wrestling
« Reply #100 on: July 31, 2019, 11:10:32 PM »
^^ Ouch !!


That's not a pretty picture.


but thanks so much for dragging up this wonderful old thread!
Terry

DrTskoul

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Re: Political theatre/wrestling
« Reply #101 on: July 31, 2019, 11:28:54 PM »
^^ Ouch !!


That's not a pretty picture.


but thanks so much for dragging up this wonderful old thread!
Terry

?? Sexist much ??

Tom_Mazanec

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« Last Edit: August 02, 2019, 01:43:33 AM by Tom_Mazanec »
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blumenkraft

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Re: Political theatre/wrestling
« Reply #103 on: August 02, 2019, 08:56:49 PM »
but thanks so much for dragging up this wonderful old thread!
Terry

Thanks, Terry. Also in this thread, Sidd is missed.
Refugees welcome

Neven

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Re: Political theatre/wrestling
« Reply #104 on: August 02, 2019, 10:37:56 PM »
Where is sidd? Did something happen while I was away?
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philopek

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Re: Political theatre/wrestling
« Reply #105 on: August 02, 2019, 10:50:15 PM »
Where is sidd? Did something happen while I was away?

This is his last post and all others before this one don't hint at any special event or purposeful absence.


TerryM

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Re: Political theatre/wrestling
« Reply #106 on: August 03, 2019, 01:28:06 AM »
Hope he's doing OK
Terry

Tom_Mazanec

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Re: Political theatre/wrestling
« Reply #107 on: August 23, 2019, 02:58:59 AM »
A new tone from some Republicans on climate change — mostly behind closed doors
https://www.politico.com/story/2019/08/22/climate-change-global-translations-1675710
Quote
Republicans are beginning to feel the heat on climate change.

Though a significant bloc of the party continues to deny the basic science of the issue, some senior Republicans are showing a willingness to consider incremental legislation to turbo-charge clean energy research funding, invest in greening buildings, support electric vehicle charging infrastructure and promote energy efficiency.
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Tom_Mazanec

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Re: Political theatre/wrestling
« Reply #108 on: September 09, 2019, 05:46:59 PM »
The Problem With Our Climate Debate Is That Only Democrats Are Showing Up
https://www.thenation.com/article/climate-change-democrats-townhall/
Quote
However, the very structure of the forum, taking place only among Democrats, highlighted the key political reality that makes addressing climate change so difficult. The Republican standard-bearer, Donald Trump, has repeatedly described climate change as a hoax. Nor is Trump alone in his denialism. Even those Republicans who accept the reality of climate change aren’t prepared to do anything substantive about it. Given that the American political system includes many mechanisms for a minority party to veto or weaken laws, GOP denialism will remain a major hurdle even if the Democrats win the presidency and take back the Senate in 2020.
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Tom_Mazanec

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Re: Political theatre/wrestling
« Reply #109 on: September 11, 2019, 08:47:38 PM »
For youth, climate isn’t partisan
https://grist.org/beacon/for-youth-climate-isnt-partisan/
Quote
When it comes to the issue of climate change, young Republicans and young Democrats might as well be in the same party. Recent surveys suggest that Gen Z and millennial Republicans care about the climate much more than their older counterparts — and, get this, maybe as much as their peers across the aisle.

I'm a conservative Republican. Climate change is real.
https://www.politico.com/agenda/story/2019/09/11/climate-change-conservative-republicans-000955
Quote
I’m a conservative Republican and I believe climate change is real. It’s time for my fellow Republicans in Congress to stop treating this environmental threat as something abstract and political and recognize that it’s already affecting their constituents in their daily lives.

If we don’t change our party’s position soon, our voters will punish us.
« Last Edit: September 11, 2019, 09:51:07 PM by Tom_Mazanec »
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Tom_Mazanec

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Re: Political theatre/wrestling
« Reply #110 on: September 13, 2019, 10:07:33 PM »
Bishop, Scalise, Cheney unveil GOP alternative federal energy bill
https://www.politico.com/story/2019/09/11/offshore-energy-policy-1489384
Quote
The GOP bill would open the eastern Gulf of Mexico to drilling, require deference to state rules governing fracking on public lands, create new categorical exclusions for oil and gas permitting, and require congressional approval to make areas of the nation’s off-limits for offshore drilling while effectively ending the president’s authority to declare national marine monuments.

It would also boost the states’ share of production revenues to 50 percent from 37.5 percent and remove a $500 million annual cap on the payments to states. And it would block an Interior secretary from preventing coal lease sales and require congressional approval for any moratorium on new oil, gas or coal lease sales on public lands or waters.
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Tom_Mazanec

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Re: Political theatre/wrestling
« Reply #111 on: September 18, 2019, 08:15:28 PM »
The political theatre plays a farce:
Inside conservative groups’ effort to ‘Make Dishwashers Great Again’
https://www.nytimes.com/2019/09/17/climate/trump-dishwasher-regulatory-rollback.html?rref=collection%2Fsectioncollection%2Fclimate
Quote
Of all the efforts to persuade the Trump administration to weaken environmental rules, the Make Dishwashers Great Again lobby might be the most peculiar.
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Tom_Mazanec

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Re: Political theatre/wrestling
« Reply #112 on: September 24, 2019, 08:16:40 PM »
Every Group Except Older Republicans Is Concerned About Climate Change
https://www.huffpost.com/entry/climate-change-poll_n_5d87ab74e4b0849d472adbb3
Quote
But the poll also finds a significant generational divide within the GOP: 69% of Republicans under age 45 describe themselves as at least somewhat concerned about climate change, compared to just 38% of those age 45 and older. There’s not a similar difference based on age among Democrats.

GOP LEADERSHIP HUDDLES WITH FOSSIL FUEL INDUSTRY DURING CLIMATE WEEK
https://theintercept.com/2019/09/22/gop-fossil-fuel-fundraisers-climate-week/
Quote
YOUTH DEMONSTRATORS stormed streets across the world demanding drastic action on the climate crisis on Friday, following a visit by Swedish activist Greta Thunberg on Capitol Hill last week to press lawmakers to view rising greenhouse gases as an existential problem that requires an immediate response.

Behind closed doors, across town in Washington, D.C., Republican lawmakers, including leadership, huddled with the fossil fuel industry, maintaining the very ties that bind U.S. policymakers and prevent them from addressing climate change.
« Last Edit: September 24, 2019, 09:27:37 PM by Tom_Mazanec »
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Neven

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Re: Political theatre/wrestling
« Reply #113 on: October 02, 2019, 12:56:06 AM »
Here we go again!

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wili

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Re: Political theatre/wrestling
« Reply #114 on: October 02, 2019, 01:31:36 AM »
???

So what. A news organization got a detail in a story wrong, and then corrected the story. It happens pretty much every day. If you or Dore are going to jump up and down every time that happens, you're gonna get sore leg muscles from repetitive motion sickness! :D
"A force de chercher de bonnes raisons, on en trouve; on les dit; et après on y tient, non pas tant parce qu'elles sont bonnes que pour ne pas se démentir." Choderlos de Laclos "You struggle to come up with some valid reasons, then cling to them, not because they're good, but just to not back down."

SteveMDFP

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Re: Political theatre/wrestling
« Reply #115 on: October 02, 2019, 02:02:08 AM »
???

So what. A news organization got a detail in a story wrong, and then corrected the story. It happens pretty much every day. If you or Dore are going to jump up and down every time that happens, you're gonna get sore leg muscles from repetitive motion sickness! :D

Indeed.  Trump asked the President of Ukraine to "do us a favor, though" and launch an investigation into the Bidens.  The aid to Ukraine was very clearly implied as hostage to compliance.  The facts are clear.  Overstatements by one or another news outlet are irrelevant to the overall picture. 

Neven

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Re: Political theatre/wrestling
« Reply #116 on: October 04, 2019, 11:48:42 AM »
Kyle Kulinski explains why Trump is better at political theatre than silly 'liberals':

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Rob Dekker

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Re: Political theatre/wrestling
« Reply #117 on: October 09, 2019, 07:53:16 AM »
Remember during all the Benghazi investigations when Obama blocked access to documents and refused to let Hillary testify ?

Of course you don't, because it never happened.

Obama handed over everything and Hillary sat in testimony 11 hours straight, because they had nothing to hide and they aren't dipshit man-babies like Trump and his cronies.

Trump has got to go, and the whole corrupt GOP swamp with him.
This is our planet. This is our time.
Let's not waste either.

Rob Dekker

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Re: Political theatre/wrestling
« Reply #118 on: October 09, 2019, 08:12:38 AM »
Kyle Kulinski explains why Trump is better at political theatre than silly 'liberals':

Kulinski is really starting to piss me off.

Let's do some fact checkin.

Just go to the first claim, at 0:43 into the video :
Kulinski claims that Biden met with a "Ukraine gas Exec", implying that Biden's son did something wrong.

But the fact is he didn't.

Not just did Hunter Biden do nothing wrong, and an investigation into his business dealings by the Ukrainian prosecutor general in 2017 confirmed that, but the photo shows a picture with Devon Archer, a US business man and fellow board member who was never a "Ukraine gas exec.".

Neven, can you PLEASE stop posting the spin, and the propaganda, and the lies vented by guys like Kulinski and Jimmy Dore, so that I don't have to expose them every time ?

Thank you !
« Last Edit: October 09, 2019, 08:20:31 AM by Rob Dekker »
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Neven

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Re: Political theatre/wrestling
« Reply #119 on: October 11, 2019, 12:07:25 AM »
Quote
But the fact is he didn't.

The fact - and we all know how you love facts - is that Hunter Biden received 50K per month for sitting on that Ukraine gas company board, without having any experience in that sector. If you're going to maintain there's absolutely nothing wrong with that, Trump will have a field day with you, which is Kulinski's point. He doesn't dispute any 'facts', he just says that if you're going to gloss over the fact that this (and other) stuff makes Biden look very bad, you lose.

Trump is better at this game than silly 'liberals' because silly 'liberals' continuously put themselves in unwinnable positions, because their tribal hypocrisy is so in plain sight.
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TerryM

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Re: Political theatre/wrestling
« Reply #120 on: October 11, 2019, 01:59:18 AM »
Joe Biden was paid $900K by Burisma, according to documents posted by a Ukrainian lawmaker.
https://en.interfax.com.ua/news/press-conference/617936-amp.html


When Hunter Biden and Kerry's step son Chris Heinz involved engorged themselves in the Ukrainian energy sector my initial thought was that it sounded like something the Republicans would do. I'm still partisan enough to believe that this isn't the kind of thing that Democrats normally engage in. Kerry's had the good sense to move into the background.


Biden's already hung by his own admission. Democrats need to distance themselves from Biden and embrace a candidate free of this kind of baggage. We need a win here & Bidens not a winner.
Terry

sidd

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Re: Political theatre/wrestling
« Reply #121 on: October 11, 2019, 06:20:34 AM »
Re: " this isn't the kind of thing that Democrats normally engage in. "

Clinton Foundation.

sidd

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Re: Political theatre/wrestling
« Reply #122 on: October 11, 2019, 06:53:14 AM »
"Hunter Biden received 50K per month for sitting on that Ukraine gas company board, without having any experience in that sector"

Well, he had form, which might have recommended him. The guy is a crackhead, as such easily controlled.  Just keep the cocaine flowing and he'll sign anything you want. Throw him a 50K bone a month, we're talking billions on the deal here.

What surprises me most often is not that these guys are crooked, but how cheaply they sell themselves.

Look at lobbying. ROI on DC lobbying is something like a million to one, take the bank bailouts. Banks invest a few millions n legislators,  get back trillions.  After they lost trillions in the first place. But the legislators ? hell they made nuttn compared to the banks. A competent set of crooks could have made a few hundred billion outta that deal. They settled for peanuts.

sidd

Rob Dekker

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Re: Political theatre/wrestling
« Reply #123 on: October 11, 2019, 08:55:18 AM »
Quote
But the fact is he didn't.

The fact - and we all know how you love facts - is that Hunter Biden received 50K per month for sitting on that Ukraine gas company board, without having any experience in that sector....

Why is paying $50k / month unreasonable for making sure a corporation adheres to the highest international standards of business conduct ?

Seriously. Why is that a problem ?

For a corporation that is under investigation and situated in a country where corruption is a major point of concern, it seems very reasonable decision to me to attract international businessmen on the board to advise the company on how to fix any issues of business conduct and $50k/month is NOT a lot of money to pay for that.

What is unreasonable is your point of view seen against the OTHER facts that you seem to ignore :

I don't hear you complain about Trump's kids making millions while holding positions in the White House.
https://www.latimes.com/politics/story/2019-10-10/trumps-adult-children-do-business-overseas-as-president-slams-biden
https://www.forbes.com/sites/danalexander/2019/10/02/donald-trump-has-sold-more-than-100-million-of-real-estate-since-taking-office/#783b083b1090
https://www.newsweek.com/trump-family-members-have-gotten-much-richer-president-moved-white-house-975993

I also don't hear you complain about Rick Perry trying to install a new board at Naftogaz, Ukraine's largest gas corporation, so that Trump's friends could profit greatly. The conflicts of interest are blatantly obvious :
https://www.apnews.com/d7440cffba4940f5b85cd3dfa3500fb2
https://www.marketwatch.com/story/trump-allies-aimed-to-cash-in-from-ukraines-state-owned-gas-company-2019-10-06

You are just tunnel-visioned complaining about Hunter Biden, who served on the board of Burisma, which has been investigated and cleared of wrongdoing already by the Ukrainian prosecutor general after an investigation that ended in 2017.

No offense, but your pro-Trump bias is showing very, very clearly.
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TerryM

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Re: Political theatre/wrestling
« Reply #124 on: October 11, 2019, 10:49:06 AM »
Re: " this isn't the kind of thing that Democrats normally engage in. "

Clinton Foundation.

sidd
Yea, but ...
I always liked Bull Bill. Bill is what I meant damnit.
And it was an energy racket - you know, like Bush or Cheney, or some oily Republican.
Terry :-[

Neven

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Re: Political theatre/wrestling
« Reply #125 on: October 11, 2019, 04:12:10 PM »
Why is paying $50k / month unreasonable for making sure a corporation adheres to the highest international standards of business conduct ?

Seriously. Why is that a problem ?

Do you really not see why the Hunter Biden thing is a problem? Do you really not understand that this is what makes you lose against Donald Trump?

Quote
For a corporation that is under investigation and situated in a country where corruption is a major point of concern, it seems very reasonable decision to me to attract international businessmen on the board to advise the company on how to fix any issues of business conduct and $50k/month is NOT a lot of money to pay for that.

He was attracted because he was the vice-president's son. Period. It may be legal, but it's definitely not ethical. It stinks to high heaven.

Quote
What is unreasonable is your point of view seen against the OTHER facts that you seem to ignore :

I don't hear you complain about Trump's kids making millions while holding positions in the White House.

The point is: How can you complain about Trump's kids, while at the same time maintaining that the Hunter Biden situation is just fine?

As soon as you go 'Trump is horrible, but Biden is good, and it's all a lie, it's all conspiracy theories, Obama and the Clintons are the good guys, they are not corrupt elites, but really have the interest of the majority of Americans', you lose. Because people see through it, they see through your selective indignation, your double standards, your hypocrisy.

This is the kind of thinking that has made it possible for a corrupt idiot like Donald Trump to become the US president. Don't engage in political theatre. Stop making up excuses for Biden because of tribalist Trump Derangement Syndrome. Use your brains.

You solve the problem by saying that they are all the same, they're all in the same club, they all need to go. Trump, the GOP, Corporate Democrats, Third Way Democrats, they are all the problem. Everything else is a losing strategy.
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blumenkraft

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Re: Political theatre/wrestling
« Reply #126 on: October 12, 2019, 08:43:55 AM »
It astonishes me how Americans are completely blind to corruption. It's right there in front of them, yelling at them on a daily basis - but they just don't see it.

If it walks like a duck and quacks like a duck...
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Re: Political theatre/wrestling
« Reply #127 on: October 12, 2019, 01:41:10 PM »
It astonishes me how Americans are completely blind to corruption. It's right there in front of them, yelling at them on a daily basis - but they just don't see it.

If it walks like a duck and quacks like a duck...
Well, I have seen it all my life, and I am an American. But it’s just like “So what else is new?”.
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SteveMDFP

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Re: Political theatre/wrestling
« Reply #128 on: October 12, 2019, 03:06:24 PM »
It astonishes me how Americans are completely blind to corruption. It's right there in front of them, yelling at them on a daily basis - but they just don't see it.

If it walks like a duck and quacks like a duck...
Well, I have seen it all my life, and I am an American. But it’s just like “So what else is new?”.

Indeed.  Some of the worst corruption in American politics is perfectly legal.  Anyone with deep pockets can spend unlimited funds on behalf of a candidate and do so hidden from public view.  Legal.  Sure, contributions to official campaign coffers are limited and public, but so what?

It's then perfectly legal for that big supporter to meet with the elected official and lay out what policies he wants to advance, or else.

In this context, consider that the offspring of an elected official often cashes in on his connection to power.  Not only is this also perfectly legal, it's utterly unimportant in comparison to the campaign finance elephant in the room (which is also legal).

TerryM

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Re: Political theatre/wrestling
« Reply #129 on: October 12, 2019, 06:34:46 PM »
It astonishes me how Americans are completely blind to corruption. It's right there in front of them, yelling at them on a daily basis - but they just don't see it.

If it walks like a duck and quacks like a duck...


I find it difficult to blame anyone who has lived their whole life under a constant barrage of propaganda for succumbing to it. The only reason I am able to see through (some) of it was that I was born under one set of lies, lived my adult life under a competing set, then retired and returned to live under the original cloud of propaganda.


Propaganda is very powerful stuff, and without some window to the outside it's very difficult to get, let alone maintain your bearings.


Every country spends big bucks indoctrinating their citizens. The USofA is just a little better at it than most.
Terry

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Re: Political theatre/wrestling
« Reply #130 on: October 13, 2019, 12:39:34 PM »
Kyle Kulinski continues to explain why the strategy connected to Ukrainegate is so incredibly stupid and helps Trump:

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blumenkraft

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Re: Political theatre/wrestling
« Reply #131 on: October 13, 2019, 01:16:48 PM »
Imagine the Democrats weren't corrupt. Imagine the moral high ground, the arguments they would have...

But this is America, and there is no reason to assume you couldn't bring your opponent down for corruption while being corrupt yourself.

It's not about who's corrupt, no one cares really.

If you want to win the election you have to mobilize your base. Telling the democratic voters how bad Trump really is in a constant stream of crimes pulled into the public will mobilize the base. It will also potentially demobilize one or the other republican voter. Every republican non-vote counts!
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Neven

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Re: Political theatre/wrestling
« Reply #132 on: October 14, 2019, 03:44:10 PM »
Imagine the Democrats weren't corrupt. Imagine the moral high ground, the arguments they would have...

That's exactly it. That's what makes Rob Dekker's 'fact-checking' superiority so incredibly inferior. That's how a dumb idiot like Trump beats super-intelligent Democrats who are at the apex of meritocracy.

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Neven

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Re: Political theatre/wrestling
« Reply #133 on: October 14, 2019, 05:46:09 PM »
Another video on how bad the Biden stuff is, with Ryan Grim explaining from 6:45 onwards how there is absolutely no need to protect Biden and gloss over this issue ('because Trump'), as the general election hasn't even started yet.

Unlike Rob Dekker, who thinks there is only a binary choice between Trump and Biden and thus Biden must be shielded at all costs, a rational person knows that you can actually decide to choose neither.

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TerryM

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Re: Political theatre/wrestling
« Reply #134 on: October 14, 2019, 07:00:21 PM »
Another video on how bad the Biden stuff is, with Ryan Grim explaining from 6:45 onwards how there is absolutely no need to protect Biden and gloss over this issue ('because Trump'), as the general election hasn't even started yet.

Unlike Rob Dekker, who thinks there is only a binary choice between Trump and Biden and thus Biden must be shielded at all costs, a rational person knows that you can actually decide to choose neither.


Throwing Biden under the bus is probably the minimum first step required to winning the presidency. The days when we could point to the Republicans and say "They are the crooks." without facing laughter are long past.


I've been calling for campaigning against Trump by emphasising his obvious domestic policy unforced errors. Russiagate has backfired and Ukrainegate will trip up more Democrats than Republicans.


Trump should have been standing for re-election after 4 years of vocal Democratic opposition to his stand on climate change, immigration issues, and his position on health care. Trump's side & Republicans lose on all these issues.


Instead we've raised so much heat over Russia and the Ukraine that there has been little ink left to examine Trump's outrageous domestic policies, and even less spent explaining to the voting public why another 4 years will be so harmful.


There is still almost a year before the election.
Attack him where it will hurt - even if this requires cutting some of our corporate sponsors.
Terry

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Re: Political theatre/wrestling
« Reply #135 on: October 14, 2019, 07:06:22 PM »
Attack him where it will hurt - even if this requires cutting some of our corporate sponsors.

Why 'some', Terry?

You need to ditch them all in order to fight corruption.
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blumenkraft

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Re: Political theatre/wrestling
« Reply #136 on: October 14, 2019, 08:07:57 PM »
In 2013, during the super summer, there was a group of kids and 2 cops educating them on traffic laws. I bought a box of ice cream for the kids. Of course, i offered the cops one too because i don't want to be rude, right? They actually reacted pretty angrily to my surprise. They refused because this is bribery. I tolled my respect.
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Neven

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Re: Political theatre/wrestling
« Reply #137 on: October 16, 2019, 12:35:14 AM »
Kyle Kulinski continues to explain how dumb it is to impeach Trump based on Bidengate:

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vox_mundi

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Re: Political theatre/wrestling
« Reply #138 on: October 25, 2019, 05:39:20 PM »
Political Affiliation Helps Drive and Shape a Person's Morals
https://phys.org/news/2019-10-political-affiliation-person-morals.html

Which came first—the personal beliefs or the political party? While it may seem intuitive that a person's beliefs or moral compass may steer them toward one political party over another, a new study suggests it may be the other way around.

After tracking people's political attitudes and moral foundations—such as fairness and loyalty—over time, researchers found that while morals did not do a good job of predicting a person's future political attitudes, the opposite was true.

... Researchers on the paper, said the results—recently published in the American Journal of Political Science—may help explain the mental gymnastics some people do to rationalize behavior or actions within their own political party.

"There are examples of members of both the political left and right of excusing or explaining away things that on paper should go against their moral compass," Hatemi said. "We'll recondition anything, on average, through our ideological lens. If we see something within our political party that may conflict with our morals, we will often say 'no, it's moral because of this,' or 'no, it really is fair because of that.' We tailor what we find acceptable to our politics."

... After analyzing the data, the researchers found that while morals did not predict political ideology, political ideology was two or three times better at predicting moral foundations. They also found that political attitudes were more stable across time than morals.

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... what it means is that I may not know all your beliefs or anything about you, but if I know with which political party you identify, I'm going to have a pretty good guess at your position on a lot of issues."

... "No amount of information will change an ideologue," Hatemi said. "But for people who are more open politically, they can use this information and use it to help them think about their thoughts and decisions a little better. They can pause and say, 'Am I processing this information in a thoughtful way or am I drinking the Kool Aid?'"



Peter K. Hatemi et al, Ideology Justifies Morality: Political Beliefs Predict Moral Foundations, American Journal of Political Science (2019)
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Pmt111500

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Re: Political theatre/wrestling
« Reply #139 on: October 28, 2019, 10:26:45 AM »
Twittersphere has reports of Al-Baghdadi being a cat.
"Staged
6/12/16: al-Baghdadi killed in a US airstrike.
5/28/17: killed in Russian air strike.
6/11/17: killed in Syrian artillery strike.
6/29/17: Iranian leader says he's "definitely dead."
7/11/17: Syrian Observatory for Human Rights confirmed his death.
10/26/2019: Killed again"
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Ken Feldman

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Re: Political theatre/wrestling
« Reply #140 on: November 07, 2019, 05:43:39 PM »
Neven asked me to post impeachment news in this forum (although it will surely impact the 2020 elections too).

The complicated story boiled down into a few easy to read paragraphs:

https://www.washingtonpost.com/opinions/2019/11/07/four-big-facts-that-blow-up-gops-latest-defense-trump/

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Four big facts that blow up the GOP’s latest defense of Trump

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By
Greg Sargent
November 7, 2019 at 7:04 a.m. PST

With the impeachment inquiry heading into its public phase, Republicans are road-testing yet another deeply absurd defense of President Trump: They are conceding that, yes, there may have been a quid pro quo, but there’s no proof Trump himself was behind it.

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Here are four facts revealing this new line to be epic nonsense.

Trump himself suspended the military aid.

Trump personally ordered acting White House chief of staff Mick Mulvaney to inform budget officials that the aid that had already been appropriated by Congress was being frozen, officials told The Post.

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Giuliani publicly confirmed the whole plot, and that he was acting at Trump’s direction.

Trump froze the aid to Ukraine at a time when Trump lawyer Rudolph Giuliani had already said publicly for months that he was pressuring Ukraine to carry out these investigations. As far back as early May, Giuliani explicitly said he wanted those investigations to target both the conspiracy theory and Biden specifically.

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Those texts demonstrate the meaning of Sondland’s confession.

In Sondland’s statement, he concedes that on Sept. 1, he directly informed a top aide to Zelensky that “resumption of U.S. aid would likely not occur until Ukraine provided the public anti-corruption statement that we had been discussing for many weeks.”

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Pence directly delivered the message about suspended aid to Ukraine.

On Sept. 1, the same day Sondland informed a top Zelensky aide that the military aid was conditional, Vice President Pence met with Zelensky.

Zelensky raised the withheld aid with Pence. And as The Post reports, Pence informed Zelensky that the administration was “still looking at” the aid, i.e., it was on hold. Pence also told Zelensky he needed to do more to fight “corruption.”

I guess the stories Republican representatives tell during the next year as they try to avoid impeaching Trump and Pence and removing them from office, thus paving the way for Nancy Pelosi to take the Presidency (the Speaker of the House is the next one up after the VP if the President can't serve) will make for some interesting political theater during the elections.

TerryM

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Re: Political theatre/wrestling
« Reply #141 on: November 07, 2019, 06:42:08 PM »
Is there a President that didn't put strings on foreign aid?
From Carter to Reagan it's just something that American presidents have always done.


Trump's a lousy President. Not as terrible as the Bushs, Reagan or Clinton, but certainly not good. Will Pence be an improvement? Will the Democrats have an easier race against a shiny new Pence, or an old shop worn Trump?


Holding an impeachment allows the Republican Senate to decide which incumbent they wish to have as their flag bearer. Is this really a winning strategy?
Terry

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Re: Political theatre/wrestling
« Reply #142 on: November 07, 2019, 06:47:45 PM »
Impeachement IIRC is for "High crimes and misdemeanors".
What is a rigorous definition of that phrase?
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blumenkraft

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Re: Political theatre/wrestling
« Reply #143 on: November 07, 2019, 06:55:55 PM »
Is there a President that didn't put strings on foreign aid?
From Carter to Reagan it's just something that American presidents have always done.

This is about a him withholding congressionally approved money for personal shit. There is a difference, in quality and quantity of 'putting strings on foreign aid', you see that, do you?
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TerryM

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Re: Political theatre/wrestling
« Reply #144 on: November 07, 2019, 07:14:42 PM »
You may not be familiar with Carters meddling in foreign aid, but Reagan's chicanery WRT providing foreign armaments was very well publicized. Both flew in the face of Congressional mandates.


It ain't good, it ain't unusual.


More important is the political blowback leading into an election. When Presidents are regularly expected to lead their country into foreign wars with no congressional oversight, the constitutional niceties went out the window some time ago.


Selective prosecution/persecution leaves a tainted smell.
Terry

blumenkraft

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Re: Political theatre/wrestling
« Reply #145 on: November 07, 2019, 08:28:52 PM »
Sorry, i missed when Carter or Reagan extorted foreign country leader to make up stupid conspiracy theories on their political opponent. It was never reported in Europe.
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Re: Political theatre/wrestling
« Reply #146 on: November 07, 2019, 09:28:17 PM »
You may not have heard about Carter or Reagan attempting to extort foreign countries for dirt on their political opponents because no other President has attempted to extort a foreign power for personal information on a political opponent. That's what makes this different.

This isn't about pushing around a foreign country for the US' benefit or even a US company's benefit.  This is about the President trying to get dirt on a political opponent for an upcoming election.

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Re: Political theatre/wrestling
« Reply #147 on: November 07, 2019, 09:55:05 PM »
Impeachement IIRC is for "High crimes and misdemeanors".
What is a rigorous definition of that phrase?

A lot of ink has been spilled on this one.  In short, it's not limited to criminal conduct.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/High_crimes_and_misdemeanors

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The charge of high crimes and misdemeanors covers allegations of misconduct by officials. Offenses by officials also include ordinary crimes, but perhaps with different standards of proof and punishment than for non-officials, on the grounds that more is expected of officials by their oaths of office. Indeed the offense may not even be a breach of criminal statute. See Harvard Law Review "The majority view is that a president can legally be impeached for 'intentional, evil deeds' that 'drastically subvert the Constitution and involve an unforgivable abuse of the presidency' — even if those deeds didn’t violate any criminal laws."

Here's some history from a constitutional law website:

https://law.justia.com/constitution/us/article-2/50-impeachable-offenses.html

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Impeachable Offenses
SECTION 4. The President, Vice President and all civil Officers of the United States, shall be removed from Office on Impeachment for, and Conviction of, Treason, Bribery, or other high Crimes and Misdemeanors.

Annotations
The Convention came to its choice of words describing the grounds for impeachment after much deliberation, but the phrasing derived directly from the English practice. On June 2, 1787, the framers adopted a provision that the executive should “be removable on impeachment & conviction of mal-practice or neglect of duty.” The Committee of Detail reported as grounds “Treason (or) Bribery or Corruption.” And the Committee of Eleven reduced the phrase to “Treason, or bribery.” On September 8, Mason objected to this limitation, observing that the term did not encompass all the conduct that should be grounds for removal; he therefore proposed to add “or maladministration” following “bribery.” Upon Madison’s objection that “o vague a term will be equivalent to a tenure during pleasure of the Senate,” Mason suggested “other high crimes & misdemeanors,” which was adopted without further recorded debate.

And here's an article written by a current law professor about how supporters of the about to be impeached elected officials often try to use Tom's argument against impeachment.

https://www.theatlantic.com/ideas/archive/2019/10/what-does-high-crimes-and-misdemeanors-actually-mean/600343/

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The Common Misconception About ‘High Crimes and Misdemeanors’
The constitutional standard for impeachment is different from what’s at play in a regular criminal trial.

October 22, 2019
Frank O. Bowman III
Professor at the University of Missouri School of Law

“High crimes and misdemeanors” is surely the most troublesome, misleading phrase in the U.S. Constitution. Taken at face value, the words seem to say that impeachable conduct is limited to “crimes”—offenses defined by criminal statutes and punishable in criminal courts. That impression is reinforced by the fact that the phrase follows the obviously criminal “treason” and “bribery” in Article II’s list of the kinds of conduct for which the “President, Vice President and all civil officers” may be impeached.

But this is not, in fact, what the Constitution requires. “High crimes and misdemeanors” is not, and has never been, limited to indictable criminality. Nonetheless, despite centuries of learning on the point, there the phrase sits, begging to be taken at its delusory face value.

Accordingly, in nearly every significant American impeachment since 1788, the defenders of the impeached official—whether president, judge, senator, or Cabinet officer—have argued that their man can’t properly be removed, because what he did wasn’t actually a statutory crime. This process has already begun for President Donald Trump. Among the first things the president’s personal lawyer Jay Sekulow said in a September 27, 2019, CBS interview about the Ukraine affair was that the phone call between Trump and Ukrainian President Volodymyr Zelensky involved “no violation of law, rule, regulation, or statute.”

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There are two strong arguments against the idea that the phrase requires criminal behavior: a historical one and a practical one. The history of the phrase “high crimes and misdemeanors” and of how it entered our Constitution establishes beyond serious dispute that it extends far beyond mere criminal conduct. The practical reasoning is in some ways more important: A standard that permitted the removal of presidents only for indictable crimes would leave the nation defenseless against the most dangerous kinds of presidential behavior.

It will be up to Congress to decide if withholding Congressionally appropriated military aid (which the President signed into law and which the State Department and Defense Department indicated Ukraine was eligible to receive) for an ally under attack by Russia and making it contingent on providing dirt on a political opponent in an upcoming election is an impeachable offense. 

It's interesting to note that several members of this President's 2016 election campaign are currently serving prison sentences for seeking Russian interference in the 2016 election.  One of the conspiracy theories that Ukraine had to attest to in order to receive the aid was that it was Ukraine, not Russia, that interfered in the election.  That may allow the impeachment inquiry to follow up on several suggested investigations from the Mueller report.

Ken Feldman

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Re: Political theatre/wrestling
« Reply #148 on: November 07, 2019, 10:22:12 PM »
The article in the Atlantic that I linked to above is a wonderful read if you're into history.  It goes to great length about how the nobles in England used impeachment to reign in a monarch's power well before Parliament became more powerful than the King or Queen.

However, what's really interesting is the brief summary it gives of the articles of impeachment for President Nixon.  I've bolded the part that may be most applicable these days.

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Finally, and most pertinently, the House Judiciary Committee approved three articles of impeachment against Richard Nixon: the first for obstruction of justice, the second for abuse of power, and the third for defying House subpoenas during its impeachment investigation. Article 3 obviously did not allege a crime. But even in the first two articles, which did involve some potentially criminal conduct, the committee was at pains to avoid any reference to criminal statutes. Rather, as the committee staff observed in its careful study of the question, “high Crimes and Misdemeanors” is a phrase that reaches far beyond crimes to embrace “exceeding the powers of the office in derogation of those of another branch of government,” “behaving in a manner grossly incompatible with the proper function of the office,” and “employing the power of the office for an improper purpose or personal gain.”

I could now go and link to numerous articles about current Administration officials ignoring Congressional subpoenas on the Ukraine investigation, but there are so many that it alone would derail this thread.  Basically, many Administration officials are now in deep sh!t and it won't be long before some of them start singing to limit thier personal exposure to possible fallout from this debacle.

And this will keep going for the months that it takes to build a thorough case for impeachment.  It might even drag on until some of the GOP Representatives and Senators face primary opponents when they're up for relection next year.

Of course, some of those internet vloggers may be right about how the Democrats are screwing this up.  But given the results in Virginia and Kentucky this week, that doesn't appear to be the case.