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Tim

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Re: Immortality
« Reply #50 on: December 29, 2018, 05:53:03 PM »
Well, I'm glad I pulled out of this sermon of yours when I did, because you just told the exact "story" that I was saying needed to be discarded. Yours is the same old "separate man from nature" story we can get from any religion anywhere.

Listen to how you just referred to nature:

"You, as a human being, can't just live like an animal, coming into being without questioning, just eating, drinking, fucking, breeding, dying, end of story."

How disparaging, and just an opinion by the way, and a very simplistic one too. A fallacy, actually.

And here, you give mankind some sort of special, better than nature, imaginary purpose:

"THAT is not your business, not your final imago, you want, you must go beyond carnal needs."

"It all transcends sheer animal existence."

"Transcendence."


So this is just yet another regurgitation of the "we're not like nature, we're on a special magical journey to transcend reality" garbage that, through a bunch of word salad, gives simple minded people who fall for it permission to mistreat the natural world that we are all a part of. That's the actual behavior that emerges out of people when people are fed this tired old religious story of yours. After all, the way you worded it made animals out to be very much beneath you in the purpose you ascribed to them, and then your story elevated yourself into being some sort of special human creature on some cool magical journey to transcend reality, very much more worthy than those eating and fucking grunt animals you just disparaged with your disparaging use of language towards them.

I could walk into any Mormon church and get the same story you know. The exact same story. That's the story that's been imprinted on the civilized mind for millennia now, the one I was indicating needed to be undone and discarded ... and here, you just told it again for us in your own little way.

Several generations of raising children under that sort of a story, and you'll most certainly get people disrespecting the biosphere that supports life on the planet, which is exactly what we see happening right now ... as a result of this story you tell yourself, a story which merely just arose out of civilized living conditions, and has permeated the minds of civilized culture for thousands of years now ... east, west, north, south ... everywhere that civilization has gone, we hear this same silly story told ... that mankind has a goofy magical special purpose, a different purpose from the grunt nature as you just described it, and that this is why man is here! It's a bad story, dude, and has proven to be a destructive one. That's the reality that emerged out of this story you tell ... a bad reality for the rest of life on the planet, and the biosphere that supports that life ... including us.

So how is what you've preached to us here useful anymore as a worldview? This is the same silly story I was suggesting needed to be undone from civilized minds, the "animals only just eat, drink, fuck, breed, die, end of story" crap you just spewed, which means that you've just brushed all other animals in the biosphere off as being beneath you, as being different from you? In your mind, through nothing more than an assertion and a bunch of unsupported word salad ... you've now separated yourself from them, by distinguishing yourself as being created for some superior purpose from them, apart from them, one that you claim is "transcending reality."

That's the exact meaning when people criticize religion for separating man from nature ... they're not talking about something physical ... they're  criticizing a mental attitude people hold in their heads. The attitude you just tried to push at us, and it's a damaging, self destructive attitude.


So, all you're doing here is pushing more of the same old civilized religious thought at people that created the mess we're in; word salad, the exact story that I would've said needs to be undone. The one that intellectually separates man from nature the way you've just done here, and declares him special, which is then when people start abusing the biosphere that they don't regard as being part of this "special purpose" they were created for, the fairy tale purpose you just described for us about "transcendence of reality." That's why it's a harmful fairy tale to tell people. It's lead to very bad results for civilized culture to think this way for thousands and thousands of years.

Boo. You're a dinosaur, dude. There is nothing helpful here, your story only brings damage. You've literally just preached about how mankind is separate in design and purpose from nature, which is the exact religious based story that needs to be dropped. I'd rather talk to a fish than someone like you, any day. You're a very good example of a very big problem.


Given a story to enact in which the world is a foe to be conquered, they will conquer it like a foe, and one day, inevitably, their foe will lie bleeding to death at their feet, as the world is now. - Daniel Quinn

Nemesis

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Re: Immortality
« Reply #51 on: December 29, 2018, 06:19:34 PM »
@Tim

I love to hear from you, dear Tim :)

" Well, I'm glad I pulled out of this sermon of yours when I did, because you just told the exact "story" that I was saying needed to be discarded. Yours is the same old "separate man from nature" story we can get from any religion anywhere."

Uhm, you were glad you pulled out of my "sermon", but now you are back at it :) Beautiful, because you explained NOW what meat I missed in your recent comments :) Thanks a lot.

My words:

" You, as a human being, can't just live like an animal, coming into being without questioning, just eating, drinking, fucking, breeding, dying, end of story."

Your reply:

" How disparaging, and just an opinion by the way, and a very simplistic one too. A fallacy, actually."

I see, so you are reduced to eating, drinking, fucking, breeding, dying, end of story? Uhm, but no animal ever wrote any sermon in any forum like you do, right?

Anyway, thanks a lot again for letting me know what kind of meat I missed in your comments, I appreciate that.

oren

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Re: Immortality
« Reply #52 on: December 30, 2018, 12:02:54 AM »
Why does this thread still exist? I see no point.

TerryM

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Re: Immortality
« Reply #53 on: December 30, 2018, 02:24:27 AM »
Why does this thread still exist? I see no point.
Raman!

Nemesis

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Re: Immortality
« Reply #54 on: December 30, 2018, 03:27:42 AM »
@Oren

You read this thread obviously. You know, if I don't see the point of any thread, I just don't read it.

I find it interesting that the tech elite is striving for technical immortality while there is huge economic/capitalist inequality and injustice all over the globe and the global ecosystem goes down the drain. Anyway, if you don't see the point or if you don't like it, just don't read it :) I learned a lot from it already.
« Last Edit: December 30, 2018, 03:51:00 AM by Nemesis »

oren

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Re: Immortality
« Reply #55 on: December 30, 2018, 03:51:13 PM »
Anyway, if you don't see the point or if you don't like it, just don't read it :)
It clutters up my gateway to the forum, the Show unread posts since last visit link found at the top of each page. I mostly click on "useless" threads (this is hardly the only one) to clear them from that list. They are useless to me, maybe they are useful to others.
If Neven could find a way with the forum infrastructure to remove certain threads from this list, or to enable users to block certain threads, be sure I would have used it a long time ago.

magnamentis

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Re: Immortality
« Reply #56 on: December 30, 2018, 10:41:42 PM »
Anyway, if you don't see the point or if you don't like it, just don't read it :)
It clutters up my gateway to the forum, the Show unread posts since last visit link found at the top of each page. I mostly click on "useless" threads (this is hardly the only one) to clear them from that list. They are useless to me, maybe they are useful to others.
If Neven could find a way with the forum infrastructure to remove certain threads from this list, or to enable users to block certain threads, be sure I would have used it a long time ago.

you name it, there are forums where i can subscribe to threads and then there are the participated threads, means normally the subscribed thread list shows first with a link to first unread post and on occasions one has more time one can go through the participated ones as well.

i'm fine with how it is, no big issue but then i also agree to what you said and the reason i still come here to this thread is exactly because i use that very same feature and it's in that list :-)
http://magnamentis.com
Knowledge, Understanding & Insight Are Among The Best Sources For Personal Freedom & Vitality !

Tim

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Re: Immortality
« Reply #57 on: December 30, 2018, 11:17:00 PM »
Anyway, if you don't see the point or if you don't like it, just don't read it :)
It clutters up my gateway to the forum, the Show unread posts since last visit link found at the top of each page. I mostly click on "useless" threads (this is hardly the only one) to clear them from that list. They are useless to me, maybe they are useful to others.
If Neven could find a way with the forum infrastructure to remove certain threads from this list, or to enable users to block certain threads, be sure I would have used it a long time ago.

All I actually heard in that was somebody saying they don't want to see a particular thread, simply because it's not what "they" find interesting. Me, me, me, me, me ... my interests, my control.

Why not view the new entries from the homepage, where the whole comment doesn't show, and where Neven has removed certain threads from showing up in the list, such as this one?

When I thought this thread was going to be about some of the false premises behind civilized culture that are driving certain behaviors, I did think it was going to be a valid discussion surrounding the biosphere crisis we face. Certainly more so, to me, than talk about space travel, or politics (which will never be a valid channel for addressing climate change, but people don't even seem to understand why that is, because they believe they live in a democracy instead of it just being a big charade for keeping BAU in place.) But yet there they are, thread after thread about politics.

So, deciding what's an important thread is really just about individual subjectivity. I think a discussion about cultural beliefs as behavioral drivers is an important discussion regarding climate change, back when I thought that's what this thread was maybe going to be about. And now here's another response in it for you to be annoyed by. Why? Mainly because you posted in it.

Ha!

It's called the Arctic Sea Ice Forum. So why are people writing threads about Antarctica? Well, I guess because they want to and feel it's somehow pertinent. I think analyzing civilization culture and it's assumed behaviors and what ideas those behaviors stem from is an important discussion in the climate change tool box, even though this thread didn't really turn out to be about that so much. So, I posted to it a few times. Sorry if it didn't suit your desire to have the forum tailored to only your interests. It actually doesn't show up on the main page list, so what more do you want? Everything ... tailored just for you? Seems unreasonable and insular.

Kerzweil is driven by a particular cultural delusion. Analyzing that could be instructive for sorting out some of the problems we're up against regarding destroying our biosphere.
Given a story to enact in which the world is a foe to be conquered, they will conquer it like a foe, and one day, inevitably, their foe will lie bleeding to death at their feet, as the world is now. - Daniel Quinn

Nemesis

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Re: Immortality
« Reply #58 on: December 30, 2018, 11:27:26 PM »
@oren, magnamentis

Yawn.

@Tim

I gotta have to say a little more, later.

oren

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Re: Immortality
« Reply #59 on: December 31, 2018, 12:14:41 AM »
Tim, just to clarify, I think a discussion of the desire of immortality and its implications could be interesting, especially as it pertains to carrying capacity issues. But I think this particular thread has quickly degenerated to a (mostly one person's) discussion of something else, I'm not sure what. I still tried to hold myself from sticking my nose in it, but I guess boredom won.

Tim

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Re: Immortality
« Reply #60 on: December 31, 2018, 12:42:28 AM »
@oren

Yes, well, it didn't really go the direction I had hoped it might either. Immortality was not exactly the direct topic I was really addressing anyway, maybe more thoughts about human-centric manifest destiny to the exclusion of consideration for all other life. However, recapitulating the evolution of that mindset through the history of civilization since it emerged, and tracing how it is that appears to have come about anthropologically, is often too large of a winding subject, especially if people are unfamiliar with taking such a trek. Using the earth as a door mat to wipe one's feet on as they progressed onto dreamed up notions of various eternal existences due to some ridiculous special journey they think they're on (separate and apart from all other life on the planet) certainly plays into it (since it's only been civilized cultures worldwide over the past ten thousand years since the neolithic revolution who have ever come up with such notions for living  ... and Kerzweil is sort of just another variation on that same theme when you pare it right down, a lot of technology and what we call 'progress' is.)

But ya. Not a common topic, or a light one, or a short one. Which is why it either launches and takes off on the recapitulation of it all from an anthropological perspective, or I tend to back out. I want to look at it ... not argue over whether or not it's a thing. If it goes astray, I tend to just back out. But civilized culture all around the world could certainly do with some (non metaphysical) soul searching to see why it is they hold some of the assumptions that this now worldwide culture does, and how common some of those hidden premises actually are, and where they actually came from, and when, and why, and what problems that causes that show up in the anthropological footprint over and over again wherever civilization has gone.

We'll see what presents. Cheers. We could certainly use some sort of cultural intervention for what many people wrongly assume are just automatic human behaviors and drives. That's just a convenient excuse because the culture went planet wide millennia ago and fails now to even recognize itself as just being a single mono culture of particular axioms and ideas about itself.

But yes, Cheers. OMG ... another bump to the top. Ha!
Given a story to enact in which the world is a foe to be conquered, they will conquer it like a foe, and one day, inevitably, their foe will lie bleeding to death at their feet, as the world is now. - Daniel Quinn

wili

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Re: Immortality
« Reply #61 on: December 31, 2018, 03:18:25 AM »
"civilized culture all around the world could certainly do with some (non metaphysical) soul searching to see why it is they hold some of the assumptions that this now worldwide culture does, and how common some of those hidden premises actually are, and where they actually came from, and when, and why, and what problems that causes that show up in the anthropological footprint over and over again wherever civilization has gone"

Yes, to me, too, this seems about the most important activity to be engaged in, but I rarely come across it, and when I bring it up, I tend to get similar responses (and non-responses).

Are there any fora where you have been more successful in sparking a meaningful dialogue along these lines, and are there any resources you could recommend for those interested in pursuing it?
"A force de chercher de bonnes raisons, on en trouve; on les dit; et après on y tient, non pas tant parce qu'elles sont bonnes que pour ne pas se démentir." Choderlos de Laclos "You struggle to come up with some valid reasons, then cling to them, not because they're good, but just to not back down."

Tim

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Re: Immortality
« Reply #62 on: December 31, 2018, 04:45:20 AM »
@wili

Thanks for your interest wili. Yes, it's a pretty obscure subject, because modern civilization worldwide doesn't much like the suggestion that it's anything but the apex of everything that came before it, the perfection of everything that led up to this point. So, not a lot out there on it ... to the point where my daughter heard recently, from a (culturally biased) professor of anthropology of hers, about how, for example, ownership of private property and division of land into private property "just amazingly sprung up all at once all over the world, everywhere at once, out of nowhere, like some sensible miracle of evolution or something." Yet, my daughter knew that wasn't true, because she'd been to Hawaii, as just one example, and learned about how the original Hawaiian culture had counted on everybody sharing the land equally, with no concept of private ownership of property at all until they were tricked out of their land by the missionaries from America, who'd arrived there and instituted the law of private land ownership and just conveniently signed over most of the land to themselves.

The point is, you'll run up against a lot of modern cultural myths and revisionist history, and interpretations of history through certain cultural lenses that obscure reality and skew it to a particular worldview, such as my daughter saw that professor doing. It's not even a conspiracy, it's just a psychological condition to do this, to see the world through a particular worldview and bias. Then, that's what gets written down as reality, and ... boom ... you get a cultural myth.

Anyway. Material? I would say the best, even though it was the last thing I found on my journey exploring this sort of thought, was a few books by the author Daniel Quinn. He really nails down the anthropological story of the agriculturalists who emerged out of the fertile crescent ten thousand years ago. His first book, Ishmael ... written through a fictional socratic conversation as a literary device for conveying the information, is an exceptional exploration of the anthropology and the history of a certain story humans came to enact all over the world as this one culture spread out and assimilated all other cultures ... or else exterminated them. I'll post two free pdf versions for you, no waiting required to dig into them. Surprisingly short reads. Neven can delete them if he wants, but my view is that Quinn (deceased now as of last April) would somehow rather see these read than held for money. So, I feel ok posting them.

The second book of his is called "The Story of B" Also told through a fictional literary device, possibly one addressing how upsetting some people find this critique of civilization and it's cultural myths and stories. The best information is actually in the second "Part Two" of the book starting on page 114. In that section is also a "Boiling the Frog" story of the miserable conditions civilization has created for itself everywhere it went, yet didn't know how to abandon this wrong set of axioms for living, having long since disconnected itself from it's original evolutionary cultural path thousands of years back already. But both are short reads. Start with Ishmael first though. It's ... revolutionary in it's revelations about our common modern cultural story(s). It's about a lot more than just what I mentioned for you here. Then read "B" second ... or skip to the end of "B" even if you find the story superfluous. That's where the data he presents is.

https://www.docdroid.net/0XmirAy/daniel-quinn-ishmael.pdf

https://newsfromthefront.files.wordpress.com/2012/03/daniel-quinn-the-story-of-b.pdf

Give them a chance. Even though they're presented through fiction as a literary device, the point is the information they convey, so bear with them until it gets deep. It's just a style he chose for presenting the anthropology. Again, they are very short reads, not long tomes at all.

...

Finally, Jack Forbes took a sort of different look at the issue. His one book I read was called Columbus and Other Cannibals: The Wetiko Disease of Exploitation, Imperialism, and Terrorism
By Jack D. Forbes

He looks at the civilized mind from the perspective of the native American cultures who recognized the invaders of their lands appeared to be somewhat psychopathic in their hierarchies of control and domination and expansion, and saw it as a literal disease of mind that could even be transmitted to their own culture by exposure. Richard Dawkins also explored this concept somewhat ... the idea of the meme or idea passed from mind to mind ... as a force as powerful as genetics in shaping our cultural existence. The Native Americans called it "wetiko" which literally means cannibalism ... devouring people (and the wider environment too) for one's own personal gain.

Here's an intro into the wetiko concept ... the 'thought meme as disease' idea.

https://www.ecologise.in/2017/04/15/seeing-wetiko-on-capitalism-mind-viruses-and-antidotes-for-a-world-in-transition/

Other than my own personal thought and discovery over a lifetime, that would be about it for literature on the subject. Some other sources I will refrain from mentioning for now, lest they be too obscure and confusing (even though familiarity with the concept exposes them to be talking about similar observations about the eclipsing nature of culture and worldview on our perceptions and behavior. But I will hold off on those at this particular time, lest they confuse and obscure.)

I recommend the Daniel Quinn books above any others though, starting with Ishmael. However, I'll never know if they just lit me up because they consolidated a lifetime of my own thinking for me, and so for me hit the nail on the head so squarely. I'll never know if that was his book, or just my lifetime of exploring the subject in my own way that gave them that light. But you can read them and see what you think.

Good luck. We're definitely heading off a cliff, and Quinn pointed out how and why before we even had hit upon climate change. He's so very very relevant, imho, to the crisis we're facing as a global culture regarding destroying the biosphere that supports us. In it, you may get ideas about what might have to actually change to potentially address that. And it isn't metaphysical, it's cultural and to do with a worldview that we seem to be trapped in now.

Cheers.

P.S. In case I wasn't absolutely clear ... Ishmael is the book to read. That's the best one. 160 pages short ... some people could probably read it in a night.
.
« Last Edit: December 31, 2018, 05:08:39 AM by Tim »
Given a story to enact in which the world is a foe to be conquered, they will conquer it like a foe, and one day, inevitably, their foe will lie bleeding to death at their feet, as the world is now. - Daniel Quinn

wili

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Re: Immortality
« Reply #63 on: December 31, 2018, 05:09:46 AM »
Thanks, Tim. Have read and taught Ishmael many times. I agree that it's essential, if not perfect (what is?)

Eager to check out Forbes.

And I'm perfectly happy with 'obscure'! :)
"A force de chercher de bonnes raisons, on en trouve; on les dit; et après on y tient, non pas tant parce qu'elles sont bonnes que pour ne pas se démentir." Choderlos de Laclos "You struggle to come up with some valid reasons, then cling to them, not because they're good, but just to not back down."

Tim

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Re: Immortality
« Reply #64 on: December 31, 2018, 06:26:43 AM »
@wili

Well, while I contemplate how to frame some of that other material without the perception going all screwy (Ha!) I'd recommend you read "The Story of B," Quinn's second book after Ishmael. Particularly the ending lectures, and especially the "Boiling the Frog" blaze through of ten thousand years of the expansion of "the culture." Amazing how many variants of civilization he scoots through in a few pages and shows the common disaster unfolding through all of them, including the emergence of the escapist religions and the whole bit, right up to today (or at least 1990 when he wrote the book.) It's a pretty profound run through of time, very briefly, and it expands quite well on what was introduced in Ishmael. He sure had an amazing knowledge of all that history of civilization he'd exposed himself to earlier in his life, and the way he ends it makes a few startling observations about where we find ourselves now.

So, if you haven't already, definitely check out The Story of B. It figures you read Ishmael already. You know, as Forbes noted, the simple awareness of it works almost as it's own inoculation in a sort of way, or at least starts to. Once you see it, you see it everywhere, and you can't un-see it after that. It's pretty startling.

So, check out "The Story of B." It was a really great follow up to Ishmael.

I'll ponder how to frame some of the other stuff I've come across. Hmmmmm. Scratches chin.

Hmmmmm.

 :o

Edit to add:

Oh, and you asked if this topic gets much traction anywhere? No, not really. Not with civilized people.  ::)

Here's a quote from that wetiko snippet I linked you to that sheds light on why:

"... it remains so clandestine in our psyches that most hosts will, as a condition of their infected state, vehemently deny that they are infected."

But also, from the article ...

"A key lesson of meme theory is that when we are conscious of the memetic viruses we are less likely to adhere to them blindly. Conscious awareness is like sunlight through the cracks of a window."

"Thus, one of the starting points for healing is the simple act of ‘seeing wetiko’ in ourselves, in others, and in our cultural infrastructure. And once we see, we can name, which is critical because words and language are a central battleground."
.
« Last Edit: December 31, 2018, 07:20:27 AM by Tim »
Given a story to enact in which the world is a foe to be conquered, they will conquer it like a foe, and one day, inevitably, their foe will lie bleeding to death at their feet, as the world is now. - Daniel Quinn

Lurk

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Re: Immortality
« Reply #65 on: December 31, 2018, 07:46:18 AM »
And it isn't metaphysical, it's cultural and to do with a worldview that we seem to be trapped in now.

Yep. Except for those that aren't. Quite a few of them and more on the cusp. If those rec books help to flick the switch then good. There's nothing more powerful in this world than people's own personal beliefs. Only they can change them. 
American journalist Walter Lippmann observed, “Where all think alike, no one thinks very much!”
To Solve Climate Change ~ Change the System, because it changes nothing when nothing changes!

Lurk

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Re: Immortality
« Reply #66 on: December 31, 2018, 12:47:19 PM »
@Tim, thanks for sharing. I'd never heard of him nor the great forgetting.

Quote
Circumstances have at last shattered our mad cultural vision, have at last rendered our self-aggrandizing mythology meaningless, have at last strangled our arrogant song. We’ve lost our ability to believe that the world was made for Man and that Man was made to conquer and rule it.

We’ve lost our ability to believe that the world will automatically and inevitably support us in our conquest, will swallow all the poison we can generate without coming to harm. We’ve lost our ability to believe that God is unequivocally on our side against the rest of creation.

 And so, ladies and gentlemen, we’re . . . going to pieces.

At last, good news

 A woman recently told me she wanted to bring a friend to hear me speak, but her friend said, “I’m sorry, but I can’t stand to hear any more bad news.” [Laughter] Yes, it is funny, because you know that, oddly enough, you’re here in this theater listening to me because you absolutely know that I’m a bringer of good news.

 Yes, that’s so, and because you know it’s so, you laugh. You’re already feeling better! You’re
absolutely right to feel better, and here’s why. It’s really quite simple. Here is my good news: We are not humanity.

 Can you feel the liberation in those words? Try them out. Go ahead. Just whisper them to
yourselves: We . . . are not . . . humanity.
American journalist Walter Lippmann observed, “Where all think alike, no one thinks very much!”
To Solve Climate Change ~ Change the System, because it changes nothing when nothing changes!

Nemesis

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Re: Immortality
« Reply #67 on: December 31, 2018, 12:56:57 PM »
Uh, I drank too much red wine last night at some party, my head feels like exploding, haha.

Just a thought for today:

When you reduce human beings to sheer animals heading to materialistic nothingness at the end of their short lives, you will get real Monsters, muhahaha. Not that I have any problems with these kind of beasts, as I got nothing to lose anway :) ... but don't expect any change for the better with this kind of "philosophy".

<snip, no zombie pictures or other gore, thanks; N.>
« Last Edit: December 31, 2018, 02:11:14 PM by Neven »

Nemesis

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Re: Immortality
« Reply #68 on: December 31, 2018, 02:18:09 PM »
 :D

Tim

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Re: Immortality
« Reply #69 on: December 31, 2018, 06:44:56 PM »
@Lurk

When I quote things to demonstrate climate change science and it contains sentences like "the CO2 humans are releasing from our fossil fuel burning" ... I will strike out the word "human" and "our" so that it reads "the CO2 humans are civilization is releasing from our its fossil fuel burning."

That's what was meant by how the self brain-washing of this culture works through words, and its very subtle. That's how the meme gets transmitted, through that sort of "story." The great forgetting ... to the point where people have confused the simple folly of a single idiotic culture for being the entirety of "human nature." That sort of subtle language, when you recognize it, is the whisper of that culture in your ear. It's amazing how much I hear people calling the behaviors of this culture "just human nature, can't be helped" on climate blogs. It implies there's nothing that could be changed about it, and its a debilitating remark. That's what Quinn was pointing out in your quote. "We are not humanity ... we are simply just an aberrant culture." It goes a little ways toward undoing the delusion.

Pursuing this goes beyond just intellectual curiosity though. Undoing the culture spell can eventually release a different sort of creature. Ha, a creature Nemesis apparently seems to think is some sort of monster. However, Nemesis appears to be quite lost down the rabbit hole with various faith healers and snake charmers, so I would expect as much from him. But the point is, it's not just an idle curiosity ... there are literal changes in the psyche that occur as awareness about the condition grows. Its actually quite remarkable. That would be the point of all this, not just idle curiosity. There's real psychological change to be found here.

Thanks for checking it out.

...

@Nemesis

Quote
When you reduce human beings to sheer animals ... you will get real Monsters.

Wow, Nemesis, you're quite the bigot toward nature aren't you. You know, from over here, as one of those 'monsters,' you're entire tone and demeanor is indistinguishable to me from Donald Trump, or from Kerzweil who you criticize, for that matter. Why can't you see how you just spew the same wetiko garbage as them, the same myth you yourself then turn around and criticize?

You're delusion appears absolute the way you place nature so far beneath you and thumb your nose at it the way you do. You're really quite pedestrian you know, with your myths and magical thinking about how special you are, and your silly special journey to heaven and eternal life you think you're on. Narcissists like you are, unfortunately, are a dime a dozen, and can be found in any nature hating church anywhere. Are you sure you aren't the monster, placing yourself above nature the way you do? How about a narcissist, the way you think you're so much more "special" than the other life forms around you, which you label "monstrous." Like I said, you remind me of Trump with all your self declared special-ness.

You're the expression of the meme Quinn points a finger at and exposes as being just an ideological myth born out of civilized strife and anguish. So, I wouldn't expect you to appreciate his insights. Have fun on your bigoted pedestal, sneering at us savage animals and calling us monsters. Really, that's pathetic you know. Nature haters ... sheesh.  ???

Given a story to enact in which the world is a foe to be conquered, they will conquer it like a foe, and one day, inevitably, their foe will lie bleeding to death at their feet, as the world is now. - Daniel Quinn

magnamentis

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Re: Immortality
« Reply #70 on: January 01, 2019, 02:30:42 AM »
generally speaking we have to distinguish between:

a) body (physical entity)

b) spirit ( the energetic part that makes and individual him/her)

as to (b) we are already immortal and as to (a) we shall never be immortal, hence kind end of topic or change of tite is needed.

happy new year @all
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Knowledge, Understanding & Insight Are Among The Best Sources For Personal Freedom & Vitality !

Lurk

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Re: Immortality
« Reply #71 on: January 01, 2019, 03:01:28 AM »
That sort of subtle language, when you recognize it, is the whisper of that culture in your ear.
and
There's real psychological change to be found here.

Indeed. Lakoff and Chomsky point to this 'language' truth in regard to 'thinking' and the 'conditioning' that occurs. The way in and more importantly the way out of the delusions and self-hypnotism (though they themselves may not use those words).

No greater progress can be made by a human being these days than to become Dis-Illusioned - https://www.etymonline.com/word/disillusion

The required paradigm shift is a long ways off though, imo. Using the 100th monkey as an analogy I suspect 'the civilization' is at the Monkey #1 stage. In the meantime this may assist http://www.paradoxicalcommandments.com
American journalist Walter Lippmann observed, “Where all think alike, no one thinks very much!”
To Solve Climate Change ~ Change the System, because it changes nothing when nothing changes!

Lurk

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Re: Immortality
« Reply #72 on: January 01, 2019, 03:21:20 AM »
Chomsky also reminded me recently that the average lifespan of a Species is 100K years +/-

Human beings are well past their Use-By date in that regard. The question is how evolution will unfold and can a new species post Homo Sapiens come into being or will the whole Genus go the way of the Dodo and the Neanderthals?. As I alluded to above it is going to take a supreme Paradigm shift for that to occur.

Could transporting all Tesla shareholders and car owners on a one-way SpaceX rocket to Mars be a positive step in the right direction? I think thinking about the great benefits to be had in such a step would be a good portent for the future. A systemic change that makes collective decisions based on the outcome 7 Generations ahead would be another positive sign for the future of life on this little blue planet.

All present signs are on the negative side of the 'ledger.'
American journalist Walter Lippmann observed, “Where all think alike, no one thinks very much!”
To Solve Climate Change ~ Change the System, because it changes nothing when nothing changes!

Nemesis

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Re: Immortality
« Reply #73 on: January 01, 2019, 03:31:24 AM »
@Tim

" Wow, Nemesis, you're quite the bigot toward nature..."

Aha, I see. So you are completely right and I'm just a fucking bigot, end of story. Cool, spares a lot of my precious time.

So I close this thread, bye   :D