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How many people can fit in a space dinghy?

Less than a thousand
9 (31%)
From a thousand to a million
1 (3.4%)
Several million
2 (6.9%)
Several billion
2 (6.9%)
I do not know
8 (27.6%)
Null
7 (24.1%)

Total Members Voted: 28

Author Topic: Space colonization  (Read 21379 times)

DrTskoul

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Re: Space colonization
« Reply #200 on: August 01, 2019, 02:40:47 PM »
Will Antarctica be colonizable with AGW?

With everybody else underwater sure...

crandles

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Re: Space colonization
« Reply #201 on: August 01, 2019, 03:22:27 PM »
'Antarctica would be easier to live on than Mars' and 'there are only bases for temporary research purposes' are being used for why it doesn't make sense for people to go to live on Mars.

But does
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Protocol_on_Environmental_Protection_to_the_Antarctic_Treaty

make it rather difficult with requirements such as:

Quote
Article 8 requires environmental assessment for all activities, including tourism.
Article 3 states that protection of the Antarctic environment as a wilderness with aesthetic and scientific value shall be a "fundamental consideration" of activities in the area.
"Any activity relating to mineral resources, other than scientific research, shall be prohibited.

If you can't use the resources there, why go live there?

The other example used is living permanently underwater. Does this make sense? If you can get there in a sub and get back to the surface even if you need slow depressurisation for a week, and this allows you to do what you want while there, is there much reason to go live there when it is easier to live on surface?

By comparison, if you can use the resources on Mars and it is not easy to travel back and forth (several months not just a week), does this give an incentive to go there and develop a colony?



Sigmetnow

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Re: Space colonization
« Reply #202 on: August 01, 2019, 04:54:53 PM »
...
By comparison, if you can use the resources on Mars and it is not easy to travel back and forth (several months not just a week), does this give an incentive to go there and develop a colony?

“Incentive” is also a personal thing.  People pay upwards of $60,000 for the privilege of climbing Mount Everest, where a moment without gloves to take a summit photo results in loss of fingers from frostbite; oxygen deprivation causes brain and lung edema; and frozen dead people are landmarks on the route to the top.  But people still go.
People who say it cannot be done should not interrupt those who are doing it.

kassy

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Re: Space colonization
« Reply #203 on: August 01, 2019, 08:19:01 PM »
And they are in a line to get there.

If you want to live somewhere you have to grow your own food so you only have to fly in the technical supplies. Then you need to built material from local so some mining and industry if you want to expand.

But how do you grow all the food you want? You cannot start from just seeds because you would miss all the co evolved bacteria and fungi in the soil. So you might want to bring some soil for seeding. Then you still have no animals.

No Brie no colony! (for me)

Þetta minnismerki er til vitnis um að við vitum hvað er að gerast og hvað þarf að gera. Aðeins þú veist hvort við gerðum eitthvað.

philopek

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Re: Space colonization
« Reply #204 on: August 01, 2019, 08:40:59 PM »

If you can't use the resources there, why go live there?


There currently at least 3 nations that will give a sh..t about those treaties but take advantage that less powerful nations didn't dare to brake it and carry the entire pot home.

I don't doubt the tiniest bit that you see that too, your statement in isolated reply to the quoted post is therefore correct while there, as usual, is/will be much more to it ;)

Sigmetnow

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Re: Space colonization
« Reply #205 on: August 03, 2019, 02:13:28 PM »
Astronauts will bake cookies in space to see how they cook in zero gravity
Quote
Dessert sounds like such a triviality when confronted by all the challenges of deep space, from keeping humans alive to repairing spacecraft. But the science learned from these edible experiments explore bigger engineering questions about thermodynamics, state changes, and even the psychology of supporting humans working in isolation.

“Sometimes in our space world, we have trouble relating to the everyday person and struggle to explain why space exploration is so important,” Dickes says. “So we really have a great opportunity here to teach the world about the Space Station, why cooking in space is so important for long-term exploration, and how space-science is one of the coolest, strangest, and most important things on our planet.”
https://qz.com/1680054/astronauts-plan-on-baking-cookies-on-the-iss/
People who say it cannot be done should not interrupt those who are doing it.

DrTskoul

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Re: Space colonization
« Reply #206 on: August 03, 2019, 03:20:04 PM »
Why would thermodynamics change in space ??? The magnitude of the various phenomena will, but thermodynamics ? I am disappointed of today's scientific writers.....
« Last Edit: August 03, 2019, 08:22:18 PM by DrTskoul »

GoSouthYoungins

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Re: Space colonization
« Reply #207 on: August 03, 2019, 03:40:59 PM »
... many people today fail to appreciate how difficult it’ll be to sustain colonies on the Red Planet.

We have sustained a small “colony” on the International Space Station for 20 years.

I don't think you understand what a colony is. You need relationships with the ecosystem around you to have a colony. No ecosystem, no colony.

In todays world of detached nonsense, it is easy to forget the biological basis of life.
big time oops

TerryM

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Re: Space colonization
« Reply #208 on: August 03, 2019, 08:42:01 PM »
... many people today fail to appreciate how difficult it’ll be to sustain colonies on the Red Planet.

We have sustained a small “colony” on the International Space Station for 20 years.

I don't think you understand what a colony is. You need relationships with the ecosystem around you to have a colony. No ecosystem, no colony.

In todays world of detached nonsense, it is easy to forget the biological basis of life.


Perhaps a colony of mites, a colony of bacteria that somehow escaped sterilization efforts? It sounds very unlikely, but -


Terry

ArcticMelt2

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Re: Space colonization
« Reply #209 on: August 21, 2019, 10:53:03 AM »
There is less and less time for salvation from a global catastrophe in space shelters.

At the top of Greenland, a new melting event happened.

This means that now the frequency of thawing events there has grown to once every 7 years.

http://nsidc.org/greenland-today/

Quote
At summit: The highest temperatures in the past 12 years

The NOAA 2-meter air temperature data from Summit Station on the July 30, 2019 was at or above freezing for more than 11 hours, a record in the last 12 years, which has seen a period of increased temperatures overall. Furthermore, this melting event on July 30 also sets the record for the preceding century. Prior to 2012, melt layers at summit have been absent since 1889, and only appear again 680 years earlier.

Only two other melt events occurred here in the last 12 years, both shorter: On July 11, 2012 melting lasted for about 6.5 hours and on July 31, 2019 for more than five hours. The highest 1-hour average of above-freezing temperatures were set in 2012 at 0.79 degrees Celsius (33.4 degrees Fahrenheit) and in 2019 at 0.92 degrees Celsius (33.7 degrees Fahrenheit). Cooling on the evening of July 30 to 31 was minimal, to approximately -2.5 degrees Celsius (27.5 degrees Fahrenheit), and an unprecedented second day of above-freezing maximum temperatures occurred on July 31, 2019, when temperatures were above freezing for more than five hours and reached a maximum of 1.1 degrees Celsius (34.0 degrees Fahrenheit).

For comparison, in the past 10 thousand years, such events did not occur more often than once every 25 years.

https://climatechange.umaine.edu/gisp2/data/alley1.html

The unprecedented nature of the current disaster in Greenland can be displayed on the graph:

kassy

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Re: Space colonization
« Reply #210 on: August 21, 2019, 02:39:14 PM »
There is less and less time for salvation from a global catastrophe in space shelters.

And the duration of the global catastrophe added to our inability to actually live in space means that it will never offer salvation. Let´s fix the only liveable place we have first...
Þetta minnismerki er til vitnis um að við vitum hvað er að gerast og hvað þarf að gera. Aðeins þú veist hvort við gerðum eitthvað.

Archimid

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Re: Space colonization
« Reply #211 on: August 21, 2019, 02:46:26 PM »
 Neither  mars nor space can offer shelter. They are the next frontier. To conquer it we first must save ourselves from climate change.

If we show the discipline and technological prowess necessary to save ourselves from the mess we are in, space is the reward.
I am an energy reservoir seemingly intent on lowering entropy for self preservation.

TerryM

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Re: Space colonization
« Reply #212 on: August 21, 2019, 04:23:29 PM »
Neither  mars nor space can offer shelter. They are the next frontier. To conquer it we first must save ourselves from climate change.

If we show the discipline and technological prowess necessary to save ourselves from the mess we are in, space is the reward punishment for our past transgressions.
I made a minor alteration to your post. ;)


Having visited some of the most desiccated places on this planet, I can assure all that these places haven't remained uninhabited because we've built huge fences to keep people out. They're uninhabited because people don't want to live there.


The moon in a bubble? Mars in an artificial underground cavern? Someone at sometime might be forced to flee to such an environment, but their dreams would be filled with visions of idyllic times spent overwintering in Antarctica, summers at Furnace Creek in Death Valley, or being perched on a Himalayan peak where breathing bottled oxygen made life possible.


Space has been within our grasp for half a century, but has enticed no colonists. Even volcanic calderas seeping noxious gas would provide a better, safer and more enjoyable environment for our species.


Space Fantasies gripped the fancy of many a prepubescent male. Most outgrow such foolish notions.
Terry

GoSouthYoungins

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Re: Space colonization
« Reply #213 on: August 21, 2019, 04:27:42 PM »
Neither  mars nor space can offer shelter. They are the next frontier. To conquer it we first must save ourselves from climate change.

If we show the discipline and technological prowess necessary to save ourselves from the mess we are in, space is the reward.

No. Mars in 2 years. Trust in your Muskiah.
big time oops

Archimid

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Re: Space colonization
« Reply #214 on: August 21, 2019, 04:41:47 PM »
Why did you visit such places if they were so horrible? Resources? Curiosity? We’re you a pioneer, trailblazing through uncharted lands machete in hand or the locals showed you around? Get it? The locals?
I am an energy reservoir seemingly intent on lowering entropy for self preservation.

ArcticMelt2

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Re: Space colonization
« Reply #215 on: August 21, 2019, 05:29:46 PM »
Neither  mars nor space can offer shelter. They are the next frontier. To conquer it we first must save ourselves from climate change.

If we show the discipline and technological prowess necessary to save ourselves from the mess we are in, space is the reward.

I think civilization on Earth can no longer be saved. There is no time left for this. Recent studies indicate the approach of the Venusian scenario (an increase in the number of strong earthquakes and the death of the biosphere).


For example new study:

https://advances.sciencemag.org/content/5/8/eaax1396

https://www.scientificamerican.com/article/earth-stopped-getting-greener-20-years-ago/

Quote
The world is gradually becoming less green, scientists have found. Plant growth is declining all over the planet, and new research links the phenomenon to decreasing moisture in the air—a consequence of climate change.

The study published yesterday in Science Advances points to satellite observations that revealed expanding vegetation worldwide during much of the 1980s and 1990s. But then, about 20 years ago, the trend stopped.

Since then, more than half of the world’s vegetated landscapes have been experiencing a “browning” trend, or decrease in plant growth, according to the authors.

Climate records suggest the declines are associated with a metric known as vapor pressure deficit—that’s the difference between the amount of moisture the air actually holds versus the maximum amount of moisture it could be holding. A high deficit is sometimes referred to as an atmospheric drought.

Since the late 1990s, more than half of the world’s vegetated landscapes have experienced a growing deficit, or drying pattern.

Offers to save the Earth reminds me of the end of a film where a television announcer says that it is necessary to escape in underground shelters.



While highly developed aliens are transporting the best earthlings to their planet - watch the end of the video clip:

« Last Edit: August 21, 2019, 05:38:49 PM by ArcticMelt2 »

ArcticMelt2

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Re: Space colonization
« Reply #216 on: August 21, 2019, 05:45:05 PM »
Offers to save the Earth reminds me of the end of a film where a television announcer says that it is necessary to escape in underground shelters.



But most of all, idiots are surprised, who believed that terrestrial vegetation could absorb anthropological carbon. For several decades, people have burned hydrocarbons that nature has accumulated for hundreds of millions of years. And some continue to believe that this process can be easily reversed.

I do not think that in such conditions the planet can be saved. It’s easier to start from scratch - in space. So it happened 4 billion years ago, when the first life appeared on Earth - or meteorites brought it.

DrTskoul

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Re: Space colonization
« Reply #217 on: August 21, 2019, 06:26:28 PM »
To people that think space is the answer, good luck with that!!

ArcticMelt2

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Re: Space colonization
« Reply #218 on: August 21, 2019, 06:28:47 PM »
For example new study:

https://advances.sciencemag.org/content/5/8/eaax1396

https://www.scientificamerican.com/article/earth-stopped-getting-greener-20-years-ago/

Quote
The world is gradually becoming less green, scientists have found. Plant growth is declining all over the planet, and new research links the phenomenon to decreasing moisture in the air—a consequence of climate change.

The study published yesterday in Science Advances points to satellite observations that revealed expanding vegetation worldwide during much of the 1980s and 1990s. But then, about 20 years ago, the trend stopped.

Since then, more than half of the world’s vegetated landscapes have been experiencing a “browning” trend, or decrease in plant growth, according to the authors.

Climate records suggest the declines are associated with a metric known as vapor pressure deficit—that’s the difference between the amount of moisture the air actually holds versus the maximum amount of moisture it could be holding. A high deficit is sometimes referred to as an atmospheric drought.

Since the late 1990s, more than half of the world’s vegetated landscapes have experienced a growing deficit, or drying pattern.

And this is just the beginning. Then the planet will begin to further turn into a total wasteland - with a growing population of 10 billion.

Even conservative models say this - without taking into account the tectonic catastrophe with the destabilization of tectonic plates:



Quote
Fig. 1 Global mean vapor pressure deficit (VPD) anomalies of vegetated area over the growing season.
Anomalies are relative to the mean of 1982–2015 when data from all datasets are available. Vegetation areas were determined using the MODIS land cover product. Blue line and gray area illustrate the mean and SD of VPD simulated by six CMIP5 models under the RCP4.5 scenario.

Obviously, this is the beginning of the total destruction of the Earth's biosphere. This process cannot be reversed.

ArcticMelt2

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Re: Space colonization
« Reply #219 on: August 21, 2019, 06:30:00 PM »
To people that think space is the answer, good luck with that!!

Thank. Elon Musk directly says that you need to build colonies on Mars as quickly as possible.

DrTskoul

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Re: Space colonization
« Reply #220 on: August 21, 2019, 06:36:31 PM »
I am just saying...I'd rather fight it on the only habitable planet of the solar system. Some people have seen too much sci-fi....turning Mars habitable will take several hundred to a thousand years with more advanced tech than today

TerryM

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Re: Space colonization
« Reply #221 on: August 21, 2019, 07:16:11 PM »
I am just saying...I'd rather fight it on the only habitable planet of the solar system. Some people have seen too much sci-fi....turning Mars habitable will take several hundred to a thousand years with more advanced tech than today


ie Magic!


This isn't Science, this isn't Science Fiction - this is Science Fantasy with no grounding in reality.
Terry

Archimid

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Re: Space colonization
« Reply #222 on: August 21, 2019, 07:17:24 PM »
There is no hope of surviving climate change unscathed. Climate change deniers and their minions won, hands down. As the prize for their victory we will have to adapt to climate change or die trying. The time for prevention alone ran out. But there is still time to prevent much worse thing, or at least get ready for them.


However, the human species is still powerful and much can be done to save as many of ourselves as possible. In fact, if people like Musk, Greta, many scientists, social leaders  and many others creating real change succeed, then we can make the world a better place while avoiding the worst of climate change. That is still possible.

Your tectonics argument is indeed a real possibility discarded  by most of consensus science, but even that can be stopped with enough knowledge, energy and will power.
I am an energy reservoir seemingly intent on lowering entropy for self preservation.

Archimid

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Re: Space colonization
« Reply #223 on: August 21, 2019, 07:28:24 PM »
Nope. Colonization of the solar system is well within the realm of science. As proof, the ISS has been continuously occupied for decades. Space is a more inhospitable environment than mars and we can already inhabit it. The trick is that it has to be continuously resupplied.

In the same way a Mars colony would have to be continuously supplied for decades or centuries. That requires a prosperous Earth. Mars is not a life boat.

Colonizing the solar system is not science fiction, it is destiny and our duty to life. Using space colonization as a life boat for climate change is science fiction.

I am an energy reservoir seemingly intent on lowering entropy for self preservation.

TerryM

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Re: Space colonization
« Reply #224 on: August 21, 2019, 08:42:04 PM »
Nope. Colonization of the solar system is well within the realm of science. As proof, the ISS has been continuously occupied for decades. Space is a more inhospitable environment than mars and we can already inhabit it. The trick is that it has to be continuously resupplied.

In the same way a Mars colony would have to be continuously supplied for decades or centuries. That requires a prosperous Earth. Mars is not a life boat.

Colonizing the solar system is not science fiction, it is destiny and our duty to life. Using space colonization as a life boat for climate change is science fiction.


Not science, or science fiction, Space colonization is Science Fantasy.

and ISS isn't a "proof of concept"


Salyut 1 - The 1st Space Station was launched in April 1971 and manned in June of that year.
SkyLab  - The 1st American Space Station launched in May 1973, and orbited until Feb 1974.
MIR - Launched in 1986 was the largest manmade object in space until it's deorbiting in 2001

The Salyut 7 module DOS-8 still orbits as a core module of the ISS.


In the first 48 years of Space Station history we've probably learned much more about how ill adapted to space humans are than how to overcome these barriers.


Terry

Archimid

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Re: Space colonization
« Reply #225 on: August 22, 2019, 12:03:31 PM »
There is no known laws of physics that prohibits the colonization of the solar system. The only limits right now are the economics of space travel. As technology advances, the economics will improve.

You haven't answered my questions Terry.

Quote
Why did you visit such places if they were so horrible?

I admit it is a bit of a trick question because the fact that you visited those desolate places means you had an interest in such barren places. For similar reason we will colonize space if we somehow manage to survive climate change.

You mention that you lived in Vegas, among several million residents and tourists. Las Vegas was/is a desert.  100 years ago it would have been unimaginable to sustain the population and lifestyle of current Las Vegas. Today it is a reality. We can do the same with mars and indeed the whole solar system, once the technology and economics are there.

And even if we couldn't people will spend their lives trying, because that is what people do.
I am an energy reservoir seemingly intent on lowering entropy for self preservation.

SteveMDFP

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Re: Space colonization
« Reply #226 on: August 22, 2019, 01:06:04 PM »
Nope. Colonization of the solar system is well within the realm of science. As proof, the ISS has been continuously occupied for decades. Space is a more inhospitable environment than mars and we can already inhabit it. The trick is that it has to be continuously resupplied.

In the same way a Mars colony would have to be continuously supplied for decades or centuries. That requires a prosperous Earth. Mars is not a life boat.

Surviving within the Earth's magnetic shielding makes survival possible on the ISS.  On the moon or Mars, people would have to live underground.  Mars soil is toxic, and the Moon has no atmosphere.  Mars doesn't have much atmosphere, either.

You're right that humans on Mars or the Moon would need regular resupply, and some urgent trips back for medical treatment.  These resupply missions would each be very expensive (hideously expensive in the case of Mars).  You're right that it might well take a century or two to be able to develop self-sustaining colonies.  Building a whole industrial civilization in those environments would take many trillions of dollars.  The earthly carbon footprint of each human in these places would probably be equivalent to a small town.  Ultimately, support from Earth will at some point falter, and the colonies will fail.

The only beings we should send should be AI-controlled autonomous robots.  They don't need air, food, water, or medical care.  Given the ravages of deep space on humans, they'd probably be more effective and versatile.  Give them a century to construct an industrial base and palatial living quarters, and then, maybe, we can send humans.

KiwiGriff

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Re: Space colonization
« Reply #227 on: August 22, 2019, 01:11:34 PM »
I do not doubt that we could see destabilization of parts of the Antarctic over the next few century's.
Resent research has found more active or dormant volcanoes than were formally know.
It seems that we will cause the collapse of thwaits and pine island glaciers both active volcanic zones. The resulting tectonic plate movement could very well effect the volcanic region presently under ice. Earth quakes in the regions losing mass from ice sheets are another possibility.
A few volcanoes or earthquakes in a remote region is not a huge problem. Providing nothing like the Yellowstone or Taupo calderas goes kaboom we will be fine .

As to space.
We will get there.  A Man or woman stepping on mars is a possibility within a decade or two.
There has always been an urge for mankind to see over the horizon.
Space in another one our curiosity will lead us over.
Sci fi colony's?  With our present technology we could  not sustain a viable outpost as a reservoir for man kinds DNA without an ongoing earth based effort to support it. Maybe in a generation or two we might.
There is a reasonable chance  due to AGW we will run out of time first.

GoSouthYoungins

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Re: Space colonization
« Reply #228 on: August 22, 2019, 04:13:00 PM »
There is no known laws of physics that prohibits the colonization of the solar system.

I thought that humans evolved in earth's magnetic field...but I guess that is either unknown or not physics.
big time oops

TerryM

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Re: Space colonization
« Reply #229 on: August 22, 2019, 06:56:38 PM »
Why did you visit such places if they were so horrible? Resources? Curiosity? We’re you a pioneer, trailblazing through uncharted lands machete in hand or the locals showed you around? Get it? The locals?
Archi
I suspected that this was directed at me, but thought it presumptuous to reply without that being confirmed.


For 12 years the wife and I lead "expeditions" to Racetrack Playa, the dry lakebed where rocks dash about for no apparent reason.
We went on St. Patrick's Day, because the weather then is usually endurable - and Halloween, be cause it is in Death Valley you know.


3 day weekends gave us 2 nights in the desert with little other than some emaciated coyotes and a few very raggedy ravans for company. Some times there were just 4 of us, once there were 27.


The newspaper in Las Vegas got wind of our activities and wrote up a few "B" section articles. Our S. N. Mensa Chapter grew with the free publicity, and after 10+ years we believe we solved the mystery.


So curiosity is probably the answer to your first question.


We weren't pioneers in any sense of the word. We were there to solve an unsolved riddle, to gain a little local recognition for our group, to film a short documentary, and to have great stories to tell for the next 6 months.
You won't find machete wielding "locals" in the area because there have been no locals since Spanish horse thieves killed or enslaved the one family that had lived off "Hunters Trail" a little after the Spanish set up the Mission Slave Culture much closer to the coast. There are places not so far away where people had and do live, but some places just have never enticed anyone to take up residency.


We had some wonderful adventures there - but nobody even considered going when it was hot, with less than 2 spares/vehicle, or horror of horrors actually colonizing such inhospitable places.


Weekend rubbernecking can't be compared with colonising.


Will someone stay for a short period on the moon? That's not predicting the future, that's reading history. Will something similar occur on Mars - probably. Will anyone colonize either location - not in a thousand years. That's Fantasy.
Terry

Sigmetnow

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Re: Space colonization
« Reply #230 on: August 22, 2019, 08:13:59 PM »
”If an elderly but distinguished scientist says that something is possible, he is almost certainly right; but if he says that it is impossible, he is very probably wrong.”

- Arthur C. Clarke
People who say it cannot be done should not interrupt those who are doing it.

TerryM

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Re: Space colonization
« Reply #231 on: August 22, 2019, 09:46:35 PM »
”If an elderly but distinguished scientist says that something is possible, he is almost certainly right; but if he says that it is impossible, he is very probably wrong.”

- Arthur C. Clarke
Any idea of the distinguished Arthur C. Clarke's age when he said this? ::)
Terry

Sigmetnow

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Re: Space colonization
« Reply #232 on: August 22, 2019, 10:44:07 PM »
”If an elderly but distinguished scientist says that something is possible, he is almost certainly right; but if he says that it is impossible, he is very probably wrong.”

- Arthur C. Clarke
Any idea of the distinguished Arthur C. Clarke's age when he said this? ::)
Terry

Clarke was born in 1917 and apparently said this in 1962.  So he was 45. 
Quote
Clarke further suggested that in the domains of physics, mathematics, and astronautics elderly meant over the age of thirty. In other areas of science the label of elderly may postponed into the forties. Clarke also admitted that there were glorious exceptions to his rather harsh ageism.
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TerryM

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Re: Space colonization
« Reply #233 on: August 23, 2019, 12:53:54 AM »
WoW


Thirty is a little harsh!


My friend just got her PhD at 28, doesn't give her much time to come up with something extraordinary.


Terry




Sigmetnow

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Re: Space colonization
« Reply #234 on: August 25, 2019, 01:39:06 PM »
Elon Musk’s plans to terraform Mars: Who knew clean energy could be so controversial?
Quote
Musk has doubled down on his terraforming strategy, tweeting “Nuke Mars!” and then, “T-shirt soon.” He explained a little more a few days later in response to radiation concerns with, “Nuke Mars refers to a continuous stream of very low fallout nuclear fusion explosions above the atmosphere to create artificial suns. Much like our sun, this would not cause Mars to become radioactive.” Numerous articles were then written or referred back to in response, all arguing that the calculations for such a feat were either highly unlikely or near impossible as a viable terraforming solution. I won’t pretend to have a numbers-based opinion on the matter because, frankly, I always wondered whether it would even matter if it was possible.
...
A different concept that seems to be a bit more acceptable to the science community involves reflective satellites. Musk floated this option in a tweet, saying “Might make sense to have thousands of solar reflector satellites  to warm Mars vs artificial suns (tbd).” Since SpaceX is already in the business of manufacturing satellites at the scale that would be needed for such an undertaking with Starlink, the feasibility factor has more points than the thousands of nuclear bombs needed for an artificial sun near Mars. And, hey! Solar power (amplification) for the win, right?

However, I’m not sure whether NASA would acknowledge this strategy, either, since they’ve basically already scrubbed terraforming as an option in their opinion. A study released by the agency in July 2018 was pretty clear in its conclusions:

“Mars does not retain enough carbon dioxide that could practically be put back into the atmosphere to warm Mars, according to a new NASA-sponsored study. Transforming the inhospitable Martian environment into a place astronauts could explore without life support is not possible without technology well beyond today’s capabilities.” – Bill Steigerwald / Nancy Jones for NASA Goddard Space Flight Center. ...
https://www.teslarati.com/elon-musk-terraform-mars-clean-energy-plan-controversy
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kassy

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Re: Space colonization
« Reply #235 on: August 25, 2019, 04:28:58 PM »
Can´t the space Tesla just tow it closer to the sun? Much more environment friendly way to terraform too.  8)
Þetta minnismerki er til vitnis um að við vitum hvað er að gerast og hvað þarf að gera. Aðeins þú veist hvort við gerðum eitthvað.

Sigmetnow

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Re: Space colonization
« Reply #236 on: August 25, 2019, 04:53:36 PM »
Can´t the space Tesla just tow it closer to the sun? Much more environment friendly way to terraform too.  8)

 ;D  I like this idea!  Let’s get Starman on it immediately; he’s in the area.
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Archimid

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Re: Space colonization
« Reply #237 on: August 25, 2019, 05:00:31 PM »
A couple hundred reflective satellites reflecting light away from the Arctic could buy us the time we need to lower CO2 levels in the atmosphere before irreparable damage is done to the NH climate system.

The Arctic is the ideal place to block sunlight because very low level of photosynthesis happen on top of the ice, minimizing possible negative side effects. Also if unforeseen events happen the satellites can be immediately de-orbited. Spraying chemicals to manage solar radiation is very dangerous. Satellites? not so much.

This would serve as a great starter for the eventual colonization of Mars and the solar system.
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vox_mundi

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Re: Space colonization
« Reply #238 on: August 26, 2019, 08:59:52 PM »
Unfortunately, there's no stable orbit to park a satellite or mirror that covers just the arctic. Polar orbits don't work. The Lagrange point L1 cover the equator.
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Sigmetnow

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Re: Space colonization
« Reply #239 on: August 27, 2019, 02:25:13 AM »
Unfortunately, there's no stable orbit to park a satellite or mirror that covers just the arctic. Polar orbits don't work. The Lagrange point L1 cover the equator.

SpaceX is offering rideshare missions to polar, sun-synchronous orbits (which circle the earth in a north-south inclination) from Vandenberg.
Could use large solar-sail type reflectors on satellites that orient toward the sun when they are in the polar region, and turn away elsewhere.

https://forum.arctic-sea-ice.net/index.php/topic,2582.msg219424.html#msg219424
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TerryM

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Re: Space colonization
« Reply #240 on: August 27, 2019, 03:09:55 AM »
Unfortunately, there's no stable orbit to park a satellite or mirror that covers just the arctic. Polar orbits don't work. The Lagrange point L1 cover the equator.

SpaceX is offering rideshare missions to polar, sun-synchronous orbits (which circle the earth in a north-south inclination) from Vandenberg.
Could use large solar-sail type reflectors on satellites that orient toward the sun when they are in the polar region, and turn away elsewhere.

https://forum.arctic-sea-ice.net/index.php/topic,2582.msg219424.html#msg219424
Any word on when Spacex will put those Canadian satellites into that polar orbit? They've been gathering dust for a long time now.
Terry

Sigmetnow

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Re: Space colonization
« Reply #241 on: August 27, 2019, 03:24:51 AM »
...
Any word on when Spacex will put those Canadian satellites into that polar orbit? They've been gathering dust for a long time now.
Terry

Launched successfully back in June.  No dust!

Quote
A SpaceX Falcon 9 rocket fired through a dense shroud of coastal fog and climbed into orbit Wednesday from Vandenberg Air Force Base in California, deploying a trio of radar observation satellites to begin a $900 million mission surveying the Arctic, maritime waters, forests and farmland for the Canadian government.

The Radarsat Constellation Mission, made up of three identical Earth-observing satellites, is led by the Canadian Space Agency, and is one of the most expensive missions in the history of the country’s space program.
https://spaceflightnow.com/2019/06/12/three-canadian-radar-surveillance-satellites-ride-spacex-rocket-into-orbit/
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TerryM

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Re: Space colonization
« Reply #242 on: August 27, 2019, 03:41:51 AM »
...
Any word on when Spacex will put those Canadian satellites into that polar orbit? They've been gathering dust for a long time now.
Terry

Launched successfully back in June.  No dust!

Quote
A SpaceX Falcon 9 rocket fired through a dense shroud of coastal fog and climbed into orbit Wednesday from Vandenberg Air Force Base in California, deploying a trio of radar observation satellites to begin a $900 million mission surveying the Arctic, maritime waters, forests and farmland for the Canadian government.

The Radarsat Constellation Mission, made up of three identical Earth-observing satellites, is led by the Canadian Space Agency, and is one of the most expensive missions in the history of the country’s space program.
https://spaceflightnow.com/2019/06/12/three-canadian-radar-surveillance-satellites-ride-spacex-rocket-into-orbit/


Thanks so much!
I was under the misapprehension that they were still "gathering dust".
Do you happen to know if the company that built them was able to avoid the wolves at the door?


Good news indeed!
Terry

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Re: Space colonization
« Reply #243 on: August 27, 2019, 04:04:20 AM »
Unfortunately, there's no stable orbit to park a satellite or mirror that covers just the arctic. Polar orbits don't work. The Lagrange point L1 cover the equator.

I'm using a first principles perspective. 

When a solar eclipse happens solar radiation is highly reduced on the parts of the Earth affected by the moon's shadow. In the same way, any space object that passes between the Earth and the Sun reduces the radiation Earth receives, however immeasurably small that radiation reduction may be.

If any object that is between the Earth and the Sun reduces radiation, then it is a matter of having enough objects cross in front of the Earth for long enough to reduce radiation by the desired amount.

We have all the technologies required to block as much solar radiation as we want. Is a matter of deploying enough satellites, and that is a "simple" matter of money.
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oren

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Re: Space colonization
« Reply #244 on: August 27, 2019, 08:02:07 AM »
And the simple matter of facing the unintended consequences.

Archimid

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Re: Space colonization
« Reply #245 on: August 27, 2019, 10:54:50 AM »
And the simple matter of facing the unintended consequences.

Unintended consequences are an entirely different conversation from being possible or not.

The best thing about space borne SRM is that if there are unintended consequences, the effect of the satellites can be turned off like a switch and in a worst case scenario the satellites can be de-orbited.

It would be more productive to try to imagine the unintended consequences instead of pointing a their possible existence.
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Sigmetnow

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Re: Space colonization
« Reply #246 on: August 27, 2019, 02:37:44 PM »
...
Do you happen to know if the company that built them was able to avoid the wolves at the door?

From the article:
Quote
More than 125 Canadian companies from seven provinces helped develop and build the three new Radarsat satellites. Canada’s new fleet of Earth-observing spacecraft follows Radarsat 1 and Radarsat 2 — launched in 1995 and 2007 — and are designed to continue operations of the country’s flagship satellite system through at least 2026.

Not sure which company you mean, but:  in space flight, delays are inevitable.  You only get one chance to do the thing, so the work up front to assure success is long and rocky, and once built, another thousand things must all go right for a launch to be a success. 

It’s rare that a mission goes off on time — that’s why launch dates are almost always phrased as “NET” : No Earlier Than. ;)  And thus the novelty of SpaceX’s new rideshare program (linked above), which says that if any of the cargo isn’t ready, the launch will go ahead with those that are.

Edit:
To return to the thread topic:  it’s such regular/repeating/dependable schedules that will make space colonization possible.
« Last Edit: August 27, 2019, 02:48:16 PM by Sigmetnow »
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vox_mundi

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Re: Space colonization
« Reply #247 on: August 28, 2019, 01:04:40 AM »
To shade the arctic would require 10s of 1000 of reflectors. Whatever the challenge of getting them into a stable orbit, the other problem is the Kessler syndrome

The Kessler syndrome is troublesome because of the domino effect and feedback runaway wherein impacts between objects of sizable mass spall off debris from the force of the collision. The fragments can then hit other objects, producing even more space debris: if a large enough collision or explosion were to occur, such as between a space station and a defunct satellite, or as the result of hostile actions in space, then the resulting debris cascade could make prospects for long-term viability of satellites in low earth orbit extremely low.



« Last Edit: August 28, 2019, 01:37:59 AM by vox_mundi »
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TerryM

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Re: Space colonization
« Reply #248 on: August 28, 2019, 01:07:00 AM »
A good thought but a bad movie. :P
Terry

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Re: Space colonization
« Reply #249 on: August 28, 2019, 01:08:47 AM »
Go for the twofer:

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Presidential candidate Andrew Yang's climate plan aims to get the U.S. to net-zero carbon emissions with a range of new initiatives -- including investing in major geoengineering projects like giant mirrors in space.

Colonize space with the laborers needed to build the space mirrors...