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gerontocrat

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Re: Renewable Energy
« Reply #4300 on: November 12, 2019, 06:47:40 PM »
I appreciate your effort but after watching the 1m22 video I have recognized an actor. Sorry. Just my view.
It is Musk who took the initiative in promising and installing S Australia's big battery in 3 months flat. And that big battery has killed the local peak demand price-gouging market run by the gas peaker /coal plants.

It is Musk who is working with the S Australia Government to get solar into social housing largely for poorer people. And the new Liberal Govt (aka would-be Trumpistas) - to everybody's surprise- is keeping it going.

Enlightened self-interest it may be - but at least something is happening. For that Musk can be forgiven some of his hubris , though I still hope the Brit who is suing him over the pedo libel gives Musk's ego a good kicking in court.
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NeilT

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Re: Renewable Energy
« Reply #4301 on: November 12, 2019, 08:27:18 PM »
Agreed, Musk needs to keep the good, curb the bad down to drive and ambition and ditch the ugly.

Other than that he can keep on proving everyone wrong.
Being right too soon is socially unacceptable.

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Ken Feldman

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Re: Renewable Energy
« Reply #4302 on: November 12, 2019, 08:56:13 PM »
Coal production and imports are down in India this year, in part due to lower electricity demand but also due to the growth of renewables.

https://www.reuters.com/article/column-russell-india-energy/column-indias-economic-woes-hit-coal-imports-but-crude-oil-soldiers-on-for-now-russell-idUSL4N27S13C

Quote
LAUNCESTON, Australia, Nov 12 (Reuters) - A sharp plunge in India’s electricity demand in October has been matched by falling coal imports, but weakness in vehicle sales and fuel demand hasn’t yet showed up in crude oil imports.

Power demand in Asia’s third-largest economy slumped 13.2% in October from a year earlier, the steepest monthly decline in more than 12 years, according to government data.

Coal imports fell to 14.7 million tonnes in October, the lowest since January and the third straight month of declines, according to vessel-tracking and port data compiled by Refinitiv.

Quote
In the first seven months of the fiscal year that started in April, Coal India has produced 280.36 million tonnes, down 8.5% from the same period last year.

The weakness in both coal imports and domestic coal output is not only a reflection of slowing industrial power demand, but also of how renewable energy is making increasing inroads into India’s generation mix.

Quote
And coal generation actually fell by 12,500 gigawatt hours (GWh) in the first seven months of the fiscal year, compared with the same period last year, IEEFA said.

In the meantime, generation from all non-coal sources, which include solar, hydro, wind and natural gas, rose by 24,000 GWh, or 8.4%, over the same period, the report said.

Given that renewables are increasingly cost competitive against existing coal-fired generation, it’s likely that India’s electricity growth will continue to be dominated by solar and wind.

rboyd

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Re: Renewable Energy
« Reply #4303 on: November 12, 2019, 11:34:20 PM »
Coal use in India has dropped as renewables increase market share.

https://www.reuters.com/article/column-russell-india-energy/column-indias-economic-woes-hit-coal-imports-but-crude-oil-soldiers-on-for-now-russell-idUSL4N27S13C

The weasel words in the article you reference are highly misleading:

Quote
In the meantime, generation from all non-coal sources, which include solar, hydro, wind and natural gas, rose by 24,000 GWh, or 8.4%, over the same period, the report said.

Those non-coal sources include nuclear as well as hydro, as in the drop in coal consumption (from the qz article referenced below)

Quote
can be attributed to the unexpected rise in generation from hydro and nuclear power projects this year, said Ashish Nainan, an analyst at Care Ratings.

This season’s monsoon rains in India have been the heaviest in 25 years. As a result, hydro projects generated about 96 terawatt-hours (TWh) of electricity in the first half of this financial year, 9.8% more than what the central electricity authority (CEA), the government’s planning arm on electricity systems, had estimated earlier.

In the same period, nuclear power stations generated 24 TWh of electricity, 11.45% more than the CEA’s estimates. India’s nuclear plants are running at 80.69% of their overall capacity, an improvement of nearly 20% over “last year when two nuclear plants had been under maintenance for around four months,” Nainan said.

The article provides a nice chart that shows hydro, nuclear increasing significantly while wind generation fell and solar rose significantly (I had to look up the source info as they used yellow for both solar and natural gas in the chart).

The quality of journalism from some so called reputable sites (e.g. Reuters) is quite appalling, I have been taught, and keep getting taught, to always double check what they say unfortunately.

So - big jumps in hydro (weather related), a significant increase in solar (weather or capacity increase?) and a jump in nuclear together with an economic slowdown cut fossil fuel consumption (coal and nat. gas). With the government looking at boosting the economy plus all that coal plant spare capacity, this could turn around very fast.

https://qz.com/india/1742462/coal-consumption-by-indias-power-plants-may-fall-in-2019/


Ken Feldman

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Re: Renewable Energy
« Reply #4304 on: November 13, 2019, 01:48:08 AM »
India is a curious country.  They curtail solar and wind generation in certain states due to not being able to integrate it into the grid.

https://www.livemint.com/market/mark-to-market/what-is-behind-the-curious-decline-in-generation-of-renewable-energy-11569864546939.html



Quote
What is behind the curious decline in generation of renewable energy

Updated: 01 Oct 2019, 07:15 AM IST R. Sree Ram

Renewable energy generation fell 20% in August despite a notable expansion in capacity. This was the biggest monthly fall in at least three years, according to data collated by SBICAP Securities Ltd.

Wind power generation fell despite an expansion in installed capacity. As of June, the combined installed capacity of wind and solar energy was 15% higher year-on-year. What gives?

Beginning June, renewable energy generation, typically, undergoes a seasonal slowdown for a couple of months largely due to change in weather conditions and wind speeds.

Quote
Apart from variation in wind speeds, part of the fall in renewable energy generation in August was also attributed to curtailment in power offtake by several states in the southern part of the country.

These states—Andhra Pradesh, Karnataka and Tamil Nadu—have a high share of installed renewable energy capacity compared with the rest of the country.

States generally realign their purchases due to the softness in demand during the monsoon, often leading to reduction in utilization levels of thermal power plants. Thermal power generation dropped 3.5% in August.

The impact is more pronounced in the renewable power segment. “They are not able to do proper integration of renewables," says a renewable energy developer referring to curtailment in power offtake by certain states.

Another industry observer agrees, attributing the sharp fall in renewable energy generation to backdown in power offtake by certain states. Even so, with the monsoon season drawing to a close, these experts say generation should improve hereon. “We have passed that period (June–August) when demand is low and generation also falls," says the developer mentioned above on condition of anonymity.

Still, coal use is going down, which was the point of the articles.


nanning

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Re: Renewable Energy
« Reply #4305 on: November 13, 2019, 10:39:02 AM »
<snip>
It is Musk who took the initiative in promising and installing S Australia's big battery in 3 months flat. And that big battery has killed the local peak demand price-gouging market run by the gas peaker /coal plants.

It is Musk who is working with the S Australia Government to get solar into social housing largely for poorer people. And the new Liberal Govt (aka would-be Trumpistas) - to everybody's surprise- is keeping it going.

Enlightened self-interest it may be - but at least something is happening. For that Musk can be forgiven some of his hubris , though I still hope the Brit who is suing him over the pedo libel gives Musk's ego a good kicking in court.
Thank you for posting good things from the Tesla corporation gerontocrat. What they did in Australia is good. It is just this person Elon Musk that I don't trust.
I think I have a general dislike/distrust for (very rich) celebrities. To me Tesla inc. is not the same as Mr. Musk.
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gerontocrat

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Re: Renewable Energy
« Reply #4306 on: November 14, 2019, 11:31:53 AM »
The IEA seems to be taking Global Heating seriously.

They have just published the World Energy Outlook 2019 that looks as far as 2040.

- summary link https://webstore.iea.org/download/summary/2467?fileName=English-WEO-2019-ES.pdf (I haven't got Euro 120 to buy the full report)

and guardian article
https://www.theguardian.com/environment/2019/nov/14/suvs-will-ensure-oil-demand-grows-for-decades-warns-iea
Growing demand for SUVs 'could negate electric car benefits'

Some points from the above links on a "Stated Policies" scenario (modified BAU?) :-
- Energy efficiency improvement (energy to GDP) in 2018 1.2%, about half the average since 2010
- need > 3% annual energy use efficiency improvement for Paris 2015,
- So annual energy use growth (BAU) set at 1.3% per annum,
- "If the popularity of SUVs continues to rise in line with recent trends, this could add another
2 million barrels per day to our projection for 2040 oil demand."
-  Solar PV becomes the largest component of global installed capacity. By 2040, low-carbon sources provide more than half of total electricity generation. Wind and solar PV are the star performers, but hydropower (15% of total generation in 2040) and nuclear (8%) retain major shares.
- the IEA forecast a global oil demand of 106.4 million barrels a day in 2040, up from 96.9 million last year.
- coal use to shrink slightly.

- Based on current emissions promises by governments, emissions will continue to rise, if more slowly than today, and will not peak before 2040.


Optimists will answer that the IEA are just not getting the scale of change that is underway. They make the point that the above outlook is from stated policies and intentions of Governments as of NOW. i.e. far stronger policies and actions are required to change that outlook.

They also ignore possible impacts from sea level rise, biodiversity and carbon sink degradation and extinction, impacts on world food supply etc etc etc.
« Last Edit: November 14, 2019, 11:40:01 AM by gerontocrat »
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KiwiGriff

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Re: Renewable Energy
« Reply #4307 on: November 14, 2019, 12:49:01 PM »
Save your money. The report is as worthless as used toilet paper.
 IEA is totally  incompetent at projecting future energy use and renewable generation.

The E Tron one of the worlds less efficient electric SUV's has an EPA rating of  283 Wh/km or 74 MPGe
A BMW X3 SUV does 25  MPG EPA.
I doubt you will even be able to buy a new mainstream  ICE car by 2040 in the developed world.
Economics will kill ICE  before governments do.
EV's are projected to become directly cost competitive long before 2030.

gerontocrat

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Re: Renewable Energy
« Reply #4308 on: November 14, 2019, 01:23:10 PM »
Save your money. The report is as worthless as used toilet paper.
 IEA is totally  incompetent at projecting future energy use and renewable generation.

The E Tron one of the worlds less efficient electric SUV's has an EPA rating of  283 Wh/km or 74 MPGe
A BMW X3 SUV does 25  MPG EPA.
I doubt you will even be able to buy a new mainstream  ICE car by 2040 in the developed world.
Economics will kill ICE  before governments do.
EV's are projected to become directly cost competitive long before 2030.
The report is as worthless as used toilet paper. You may well be right. But many Governments and businesses make decisions based on it.

I am sure you are right about EV's becoming cost competitive etc
I am sure all the studies and practical examples are quite right when they say energy efficiency is the cheapest and most effective way of reducing energy use.

In your town / village / settlement do you see loads of work being done on houses / shops / offices / factories to improve energy efficiency of living and working spaces? I doubt it.

Does the business section in your newspaper of choice have recent articles on how industries are redesigning their production systems to make the best use of energy? I doubt it.

In the UK most drivers who are considering electric vehicles would prefer a hybrid. Why? Because they do not believe there are charging points. In the boondocks - true. In the big towns & cities. Not true. Most UK drivers can't make the leap from the old (known) to the new (unknown). Gotta have an engine, a real engine.

INERTIA. Governments, businesses, individuals. So my guess is actuality will lie somewhere between the potential to reduce energy use / source most energy from renewables, and the IEA's "stated policies" outlook.

And - the IPCC Climate Emergency report said 12 years to make a substantial reduction in Greenhouse gas emissions. Only 11 now, others say less than 10 years (e.g. the Carbon Clock**). 2019 emissions will be higher than 2018 that were 2.3% higher than 2017.

And - what odds do you give for Venice having a future ?
And - in 2019 China gets 50 times more energy from Coal than from wind+solar.

The need for civil disobedience by extinction rebellion and other activists has never been higher.

** https://www.mcc-berlin.net/fileadmin/data/clock/carbon_clock.htm?i=3267263%22%20style=%22width:600px;%20height:340px;
« Last Edit: November 14, 2019, 01:31:13 PM by gerontocrat »
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Archimid

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Re: Renewable Energy
« Reply #4309 on: November 14, 2019, 03:10:17 PM »
Quote
And - what odds do you give for Venice having a future ?

I think Venice has a couple of things going in its favor.  First, the city evolved over water, so they may be better equipped to fight rising seas than cities that evolved over dry land. They must do the same thing their ancestors did, but 10 times faster.

Another benefit is that the vulnerability is obvious now, while the world is still prosperous. If Venice starts working now, they may be well prepared to adapt to the changes. Other places will not prepare because they haven't seen an obvious threat. As the climate goes to s**t the capacity to adapt will shrink with the economy.
I am an energy reservoir seemingly intent on lowering entropy for self preservation.

nanning

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Re: Renewable Energy
« Reply #4310 on: November 14, 2019, 04:52:06 PM »
Thanks for that great post gerontocrat.

Here I have a different view:
Quote from: gerontocrat
I am sure all the studies and practical examples are quite right when they say energy efficiency is the cheapest and most effective way of reducing energy use.

In my view the best way is to use LESS energy per capita in the 'rich' countries ;).
Or perhaps to stop consumerism. Governments have the power to do that (and destroy GDP  ::)).
A different system is necessary. Time to start colouring outside the lines.
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vox_mundi

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Re: Renewable Energy
« Reply #4311 on: November 14, 2019, 06:46:56 PM »
New Material Breaks World Record for Turning Heat Into Electricity
https://phys.org/news/2019-11-material-world-electricity.html

Thermoelectric materials can convert heat into electrical energy. This is due to the so-called Seebeck effect: If there is a temperature difference between the two ends of such a material, electrical voltage can be generated and current can start to flow. The amount of electrical energy that can be generated at a given temperature difference is measured by the so-called ZT value: The higher the ZT value of a material, the better its thermoelectric properties.

The best thermoelectrics to date were measured at ZT values of around 2.5 to 2.8. Scientists at TU Wien (Vienna) have now succeeded in developing a completely new material with a ZT value of 5 to 6. It is a thin layer of iron, vanadium, tungsten and aluminum applied to a silicon crystal. (... thin-film Heusler alloy based on Fe2V0.8W0.2Al)

The new material is so effective that it could be used to provide energy for sensors or even small computer processors. Instead of connecting small electrical devices to cables, they could generate their own electricity from temperature differences. The new material has now been presented in the journal Nature.



B. Hinterleitner et al. Thermoelectric performance of a metastable thin-film Heusler alloy, Nature (2019)

---------------------------------

Large Storage Potential In Future Ice-Free Glacier Basins
https://phys.org/news/2019-11-large-storage-potential-future-ice-free.html

Glaciologists at ETH Zurich and WSL assessed the global water storage and hydropower potential that could be freed up in future as glaciers melt in response to climate change.

In their study, the research team around Daniel Farinotti, Professor of Glaciology at the Laboratory of Hydraulics, Hydrology and Glaciology (VAW) at ETH Zurich and at WSL, analyzed about 185,000 glaciers. For these sites they calculated a maximum theoretical storage potential of 875 cubic kilometers (km3) and a maximum theoretical hydropower potential of 1350 terawatt hours per year.

"This theoretical total potential corresponds to about one third of current hydropower production worldwide. But in reality, only part of it would be realizable," explains Farinotti.

In order to obtain a more realistic estimate, the researchers conducted an initial suitability assessment for all sites. They identified around 40 percent of the theoretical total potential as "potentially" suitable, equalling to a storage volume of 355 km3 and a hydropower potential of 533 terrawatts per hour per year. The latter corresponds to around 13 percent of the current hydropower production worldwide, or nine times Switzerland's annual electricity demand.

"Even this potentially suitable storage volume would be sufficient to store about half of the annual runoff from the studied glacierized basins," Farinotti says. Assuming an average climate scenario, about three-quarters of the storage potential could become ice-free by 2050.



Daniel Farinotti et al. Large hydropower and water-storage potential in future glacier-free basins, Nature (2019)
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Ken Feldman

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Re: Renewable Energy
« Reply #4312 on: November 15, 2019, 12:23:53 AM »
Seoul, South Korea is putting solar panels on all public buildings and a million homes by 2022.

https://electrek.co/2019/11/14/seoul-south-korea-solar-public-buildings-1m-homes/

Quote
Seoul is putting solar on all public buildings and 1 million homes
Michelle Lewis
- Nov. 14th 2019 9:52 am ET

In Seoul, South Korea, every public building and 1 million homes will have solar panels by 2022. South Korea, the world’s fourth-largest coal importer, is making a concerted effort to shift to green energy after public pressure to do so and aims to generate 35% of its electricity from renewables by 2040.

Ken Feldman

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Re: Renewable Energy
« Reply #4313 on: November 15, 2019, 12:36:37 AM »
India rebid a recent solar power tender that was previously undersubscribed.  They got much better results this time.

https://www.renewablesnow.com/news/indian-solar-tender-with-manufacturing-finally-oversubscribed-676334/

Quote
Indian solar tender with manufacturing finally oversubscribed
November 14 (Renewables Now) - The Solar Energy Corporation of India (SECI) received bids for 8 GW of solar power projects linked with 2 GW of photovoltaics (PV) manufacturing capacity in a tender after its increased the solar electricity tariff cap.

The government solar agency extended the deadline for bids in the 7-GW solar tender several times this year as it failed to attract significant interest. It amended certain clauses to make the tender more attractive, including lifting the maximum tariff for the solar electricity from the projects to INR 2.93 (USD 0.041/EUR 0.037) per kWh, from INR 2.75/kWh previously.

Archimid

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Re: Renewable Energy
« Reply #4314 on: November 15, 2019, 12:16:20 PM »
South Australia household batteries keeps lights on in Queensland after coal unit fails

https://reneweconomy.com.au/south-australia-household-batteries-keeps-lights-on-in-queensland-after-coal-unit-fails-51385/

Quote
The outage at Queensland’s Kogan Creek coal power station happened when the unit –  the biggest single unit in Australia – tripped, reducing supply by 784MW, and causing the power system to drop well below the normal level of system frequency.

The VPP detected the frequency drop and immediately injected power into the grid from residential batteries installed on SA Housing Trust properties across the state, contributing with other providers to return the system back to normal, said South Australia energy minister Dan van Holst Pellekaan in a separate statement.
I am an energy reservoir seemingly intent on lowering entropy for self preservation.

Archimid

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Re: Renewable Energy
« Reply #4315 on: November 16, 2019, 10:37:35 PM »
U.S. readies first wind-powered steel plant

https://www.eenews.net/stories/1061552453

Quote
The utility will bring a new wind farm online to supply the mill, where high-efficiency electric arc furnaces will melt recycled scrap and convert it into steel rebar used for construction throughout the region.
...
The Sedalia mill will still rely on fossil from the regional Southwest Power Pool bulk power grid when it can't draw enough energy from wind on Evergy's system. Even then, the plant will be supplied at least partly by renewables as the power supply in SPP increasingly becomes greener (Energywire, Nov. 6).


We are getting there.
I am an energy reservoir seemingly intent on lowering entropy for self preservation.

rboyd

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Re: Renewable Energy
« Reply #4316 on: November 16, 2019, 11:03:24 PM »
Blow-out: Germany’s new climate package might kill off onshore wind

Looks like the big corporations have been lobbying hard, as onshore wind is dominated by small players while offshore wind (targeted for expansion) is dominated by big corporations. Plus a hit from new environmental regulations that have a minimum spacing between wind farms.

Quote
With only 500 megawatts of new onshore wind energy coming on-line through September, Germany’s pioneering onshore sector is suffering through its worst year since the beginning of the Energiewende. But instead of helping, the new Climate Package actually sharply reduces onshore wind targets, endangering the whole industry

Quote
Throughout the year, Germany’s onshore wind industry has suffered through an intensifying crisis. Compared to 2018, as of the end of September, the rate of expansion had fallen some 80% as only 504 new megawatts of energy came on line. Moreover, the disastrous change from feed-in tariffs to competitive auctions has left some 11 GW of projects stuck in various approval processes due to tighter planning restrictions.

According to DER SPIEGEL magazine, the devastating slump is set to continue as permits for new plants have fallen even further. In total, only 304 new turbines with a total output of 1162 megawatts were approved for future installation. However, how and when they might actually come online remains a mystery. Combining the newly adopted national 1000 meter distance rule and other tightened regulations included within the Climate Package along with the existing byzantine approval processes threatens to suck any remaining wind out of the sector’s sails.

Quote
The government’s decision is even more stunning considering given that wind energy is about to overtake brown coal (lignite) as Germany’s single largest source of electricity for the first time. It also seems clear that the new renewables targets are aimed at prioritizing sectors where larger companies and concerns prevail. Unlike onshore wind, offshore development is dominated by large, multinational firms and is also the favored green energy pathway for the newly enlarged RWE. This is in direct contrast to onshore wind, the success of which was largely propelled by smaller firms, private investors and community groups whose early investments helped propel the young Energiewende. For them the new rules are nothing short of disastrous.

Quote
However, the German wind group BWE expects onshore installations this year to come in at less than 1.5 GW. The pace suggests that going forward the country likely will not meet the upper 2030 limits. All in all, the growth rate is a far cry from the 4.5 GW average annual installation increases enjoyed from 2014 to 2017 when Germany constituted Europe’s largest onshore wind market.

Quote
But the sharpest blow to onshore’s future is the country-wide introduction of a 1 km minimum distance between new wind farms and existing settlements. This new provision according to calculations published earlier this year by Germany’s environmental agency UBA, could reduce available areas for new installs by 20-50%.

Quote
Given that the new laws were partially aimed to get Germany back on track after missing its 2020 climate-protection gap, Greenpeace Germany fears that the new package’s lack of ambitions actually ensures the 2030 target also won’t be reached. Instead, said the organization’s Andree Böhlin, “the implementation of the Paris Climate Agreement and the 1.5° C target are now completely out of sight.”

https://energytransition.org/2019/11/blow-out-germanys-new-climate-package-might-kill-off-onshore-wind/

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Re: Renewable Energy
« Reply #4317 on: November 17, 2019, 12:35:06 AM »
^^
Is there any chance that with Nord Stream 2's imminent arrival Germany could mothball much of her lignite generation and close on her Paris commitments by burning gas?


It seems as though the energy might be available if Germany chose to make use of it in this way.
Terry

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Re: Renewable Energy
« Reply #4318 on: November 17, 2019, 07:58:55 AM »
NordStream2 is a shame. Europe theoretically embargoes the Russian for taking Crimea and all the while not only buying their oil and gas (thereby keeping the Putin regime alive), but throwing Ukraine (theoretically their ally) to the wolves by making their gas route useless.
What a bunch of ........!

blumenkraft

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Re: Renewable Energy
« Reply #4319 on: November 17, 2019, 09:07:12 AM »
Agreed.
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Re: Renewable Energy
« Reply #4320 on: November 17, 2019, 02:46:57 PM »
So you prefer Trump's America to Putin's Russia?


Terry

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Re: Renewable Energy
« Reply #4321 on: November 17, 2019, 02:56:12 PM »
I prefer the energy to be produced locally.

I guess that means i want an european Europe.
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El Cid

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Re: Renewable Energy
« Reply #4322 on: November 17, 2019, 03:48:15 PM »
So you prefer Trump's America to Putin's Russia?


Terry

any time, yes, any time

BTW it really is Putin's Russia but fortunately it is NOT Trump's USA at all!!! Big difference!

TerryM

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Re: Renewable Energy
« Reply #4323 on: November 17, 2019, 03:51:54 PM »
I prefer the energy to be produced locally.

I guess that means i want an european Europe.
As I understand it there's mountains of coal still to be extracted. I'd prefer that Europe made progress WRT Paris accord commitments, but I'm simply a North American hoping that everyone's coal remains under ground. A global europe if you insist.
Terry

TerryM

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Re: Renewable Energy
« Reply #4324 on: November 17, 2019, 04:04:52 PM »
So you prefer Trump's America to Putin's Russia?


Terry

any time, yes, any time

BTW it really is Putin's Russia but fortunately it is NOT Trump's USA at all!!! Big difference!


How so? A few years back Putin exhorted his countrymen to develop and convert road transportation from gasoline and diesel to natural gas. Even the Russian military was to make the switch.
How well were Putin's directive followed? How could this be occurring in such an authoritarian culture?


Trump on the other hand is a political novice - thank god.
Terry

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Re: Renewable Energy
« Reply #4325 on: November 17, 2019, 07:35:08 PM »
I lived in a communist regime and currently unfortunately I live in an increasingly autocratic one. You have no idea how these systems work. No matter how much you read about it, unless you live in one you have no idea at all. This is seriously OT here I know, but I had to tell this for all you people who live in "normal" democracies, however faulty those democracies may be...

TerryM

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Re: Renewable Energy
« Reply #4326 on: November 17, 2019, 09:23:38 PM »
^^
When did we begin discussing "Communist Regimes"? I've been to Cuba, count a number of Chinese "Commies" and a family of Serbs as close friends, but we were speaking of Trump's America and Putin's Russian Federation. Both of whom are representative democracies, and I believe both operate under constitutions penned by American authors.


On paper it certainly appears that the Russian people have made more progress since the end of the Soviet Empire - which was a form of communism - than the American proletariat have since the Reagan "Regime" - which is and was a form of Oligarchy.


How the hell did we get here from renewable energy, and where are we headed next? :-\
Terry

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Re: Renewable Energy
« Reply #4327 on: November 17, 2019, 09:41:19 PM »
The best thing about Democratic Republics is that they get the leaders they deserve.
The worst things about Democratic Republics is that they get the leaders they deserve.
SHARKS (CROSSED OUT) MONGEESE (SIC) WITH FRICKIN LASER BEAMS ATTACHED TO THEIR HEADS

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Re: Renewable Energy
« Reply #4328 on: November 17, 2019, 10:38:20 PM »
NordStream2 is a shame. Europe theoretically embargoes the Russian for taking Crimea and all the while not only buying their oil and gas (thereby keeping the Putin regime alive), but throwing Ukraine (theoretically their ally) to the wolves by making their gas route useless.
What a bunch of ........!

The Ukraine defaulted on their gas debts to Russia (backed by the IMF against its own rules), so they have displayed their untrustworthiness. So Russia has built alternative pipelines through Turkey and now Nordstream. Even in the middle of the first Cold War the USSR remained a reliable supplier to Europe; they have displayed their trustworthiness. The big gas field in the Netherlands is being shut down, so Europe desperately needs more gas imports, and Russia is the most trustworthy and cost competitive supplier. This is intelligent German independent policy making for the benefit of the German people, which is nice to see given the pressure from the US, Poland etc.

We are moving to a multi-polar world and the Germans seem to understand the need for some independence from the declining power. The US cant throw its weight around the way it could in the couple of decades after the collapse of the USSR.

If Europe etc. wants to get rid of despicable regimes they should start with Saudi Arabia, the country with horrendous human rights violations (like murdering a journalist in their embassy and beheading people in the street) and that spends billions supporting Wahhabi terrorists. Then quite a few Central American countries (like the coup regime in Honduras) etc., well before Russia. They should also be sanctions on the Ukraine until they remove the explicitly fascist and anti-semitic elements within the power structure. Seems the new Ukrainian President is trying to come to a settlement with Russia, in the best interests of the average Ukrainian, but with extreme difficulty given some of the powerful elements in the country.

Welcome to the new non uni-polar world.

TerryM

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Re: Renewable Energy
« Reply #4329 on: November 17, 2019, 10:52:19 PM »
The best thing about Democratic Republics is that they get the leaders they deserve.
The worst things about Democratic Republics is that they get the leaders they deserve.
I had written a Ramen almost as a reflex, then before pushing "Post" thought better of it. It's an old saw & who ever stops to consider what truths it might mask.


The public has very little no input into what is done in their name & this is nothing to fault the public for.
The paper from Harvard showing that the wealthy constantly got the laws they wanted, as opposed to the wants or needs of either the moderately wealthy middle class, or the poor majority was no fluke. The system was designed to operate that way and it functions as exactly as designed. Not a bug, not a feature, but the entire purpose of the program.


The truth has been deeply buried, and when somebody like Assange exposes snippets of genuine fact they're dealt with very harshly. Much more harshly than if he was a criminal or a murderer.


It wasn't when Assange exposed the bloodthirsty inhumanity of the battlefield that he was demonized and tortured. It was when he exposed the cloistered mutterings of the Elected Elite and allowed us access to records of their secret banking transactions, that's when their knives were brought into the open.


We don't typically blame the victims, and here it's the voting public who has been lied to, stolen from and humiliated by those that a twisted system forces us to place our trust in.


We certainly deserve much more than the crumbs that are so disdainfully tossed our way.
Terry

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Re: Renewable Energy
« Reply #4330 on: November 17, 2019, 11:24:32 PM »
A great post rboyd!


It's refreshing to hear the views of someone who has made a study of the situation, then writes from a scholarly perspective, as opposed to those reacting, then writing an emotionally directed post.


I've no idea why you're working on your doctorate, but I hope that you're considering education and writing. You need a broad audience, and an audience that is capable of following your example of allowing facts to form opinions, rather than attempting to twist the narrative until it is totally divorced from reality.


Sincerely thankful for the great read.
Terry

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Re: Renewable Energy
« Reply #4331 on: November 18, 2019, 12:21:54 AM »
Thankyou for the very kind comments Terry. Hopefully yes, writing and academia.

The sad thing is that I am finding very little fundamental impact from climate change on government policies, apart from the political need to be seen to be doing something. With China its mostly localized air pollution, industrial policy (develop a dominant green tech sector), and energy security. In Germany it was really all about getting rid of nuclear and support is falling away and getting twisted (in favour of big business) as politically important groups push back. In the US even Obama only provided lukewarm support while supporting the fracking revolution, same in Canada with our Canadian Obama. etc. etc.

The result is shown in the table below, total renewables capacity growth is decelerating at a level below that needed to offset the growth in energy usage - resulting in still increasing levels of fossil fuel usage. Its even worse from an actual output perspective, as the fastest growing area is solar pv, which has the lowest capacity utilization of the renewables (and even its rate of increase will decelerate below 20% in the next 3 years)..

Global All Renewables Capacity - from IRENA

YEAR   MW     % Growth
2007   989213   
2008   1057967   6.95%
2009   1138759   7.64%
2010   1225714   7.64%
2011   1329364   8.46%
2012   1443834   8.61%
2013   1564607   8.36%
2014   1691997   8.14%
2015   1848739   9.26%
2016   2007996   8.61%
2017   2179448   8.54%
2018   2350755   7.86%


rboyd

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Re: Renewable Energy
« Reply #4332 on: November 18, 2019, 12:51:14 AM »
Is the IEA continuing to downplay global solar growth?

From this article looks like they have made a lot of effort to improve and are now pretty close to other independent forecasts. Problem is that they see global pv installs flat lining from 2020, in agreement with BloombergNEF etc., which means the growth rate of installed capacity will collapse to 11% in 2024. Thats a pretty terrifying future from a climate change point of view.

Quote
It would seem, that the IEA has made efforts to stop low-balling the PV industry and has come closer to the independent forecasters projections. However, its should also be noted that Wood Mackenzie’s ‘flatlining’ forecast needs questioning, not least because the PV industry has no experience of multiple years of flatlining installations.

Lets hope that the flatlining forecasts are wrong - in a big way.

https://www.pv-tech.org/editors-blog/is-the-iea-continuing-to-downplay-global-solar-growth

TerryM

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Re: Renewable Energy
« Reply #4333 on: November 18, 2019, 10:42:40 AM »
I viewed Gerontocrat's charts first with disbelief, then with resignation. The Keeling curve isn't straightening, it's bending into an ever tightening arc, putting a lie to the most even the most pessimistic predictions.


Renewable energy schemes that are planned for the future have little time to prove their worth.
America, China, Russia, India and Europe all have their own energy priorities. None seemingly see Climate Change as more than a temporary upset, one that might even strengthen their relative position, if only they can play their cards correctly.


Some pay lip service to cooperating with other nations, but the goal of each is to survive. To survive and come out the other end with at least as strong a position as they had prior to the Climate Catastrophe.


What renewable energy program will work?


With the supply lines as intertwined as they are I don't think that any nation has any chance of survival. Survival of any one requires the survival of all and there is no end to the catastrophe, at least no end that makes sense based on human time scales. Things will get bad, then they'll get much worse, then they'll get much worse than can be imagined. It won't end well, it won't end poorly, it won't end. Things will simply get increasingly worse.


Renewables that can be maintained and repaired at a village level will last the longest. Windmills will spin salvaged automotive generators for a few generations, then no parts or knowledge of how to repair electrical appliances. Windmills then will be used to mill grain and pump water.


Photovoltaics have an even shorter lifespan because they can't be manufactured and soon very few will have any use for electricity. Liquid fuels will last until they're gone, which will be longer than natural gas, but not as long as coal, where it's easily accessible.


Wood, either as is or in the form of charcoal can warm shelters and cook food. Difficult to transport, but that's not a problem for migratory extended families, and without sanitary sewers frequent migrations may become a way to avoid, or to transport, plagues.


So perhaps a longer view of what constitutes "renewable energy" will depend on the timeframe being considered, what local weather patterns prevail, and what level of technology one has access to.



If mankind is very lucky? we'll avoid nuclear war, nuclear accidents are inevitable, but billions more will still need to die before we reach sustainable levels with very limited technology.

It's increasingly difficult to worry too much about the short term advantages of a specific fuel or technology. As people we'll do what can be done to extend the status quo for as long as possible. I just can't see it lasting for too many decades.

Damn - I should have posted this as doomer porn.
Terry

nanning

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Re: Renewable Energy
« Reply #4334 on: November 18, 2019, 01:41:14 PM »
Thank you Terry. Agree completely. Did you read my mind? ;).


edit: Sorry, I disagree about the timeline (concerning 'parts' and 'the ecosystem'). So not completely but almost completely :)
« Last Edit: November 18, 2019, 08:16:00 PM by nanning »
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Ken Feldman

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Re: Renewable Energy
« Reply #4335 on: November 18, 2019, 10:26:36 PM »
With solar now cheaper than coal and near parity with natural gas, a lot of money is being invested in improving solar power. Each year, the manufacturing capacity of the industry has grown.  As a result, future installations will see increased efficiency and lower prices.  And the industry will be able to increase growth rates to keep up with demand.

https://www.pv-magazine.com/2019/11/18/solar-will-power-ahead-to-offer-20-more-output-for-25-lower-module-costs-within-15-months/

Quote
Solar will power ahead to offer 20% more output for 25% lower module costs within 15 months
PV industry veteran Karl-Heinz Remmers recalls the trajectory of solar power this decade and predicts stronger than expected development for the ten years ahead.
November 18, 2019

Quote
Global markets and production capacity have been growing every year since 2012, and since 2016 we have seen a leap in efficiency and cost reductions. Despite the current weak demand in China, a market volume of significantly more than 100 GW is expected worldwide this year. By 2023, analysts at PV InfoLink expect global production capacities to grow to almost 250 GW.

Simultaneously, further increases in efficiency and cost reductions will be achieved in connection with a series of technical innovations which will go into mass production. The long dominance of polycrystalline modules has quickly come to an end – mono is the new normal. Tomorrow bifacial panels should become standard, with some manufacturers already offering them with transparent backsheets at almost the same prices as conventional products. That will further reduce solar prices and thus open more new markets almost automatically. The result is a good chance of 300 GW of new solar per year in 2025.

gerontocrat

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Re: Renewable Energy
« Reply #4336 on: November 20, 2019, 08:35:08 PM »
With solar now cheaper than coal and near parity with natural gas, a lot of money is being invested in improving solar power. Each year, the manufacturing capacity of the industry has grown.  As a result, future installations will see increased efficiency and lower prices.  And the industry will be able to increase growth rates to keep up with demand.

Quote
By 2023, analysts at PV InfoLink expect global production capacities to grow to almost 250 GW.

The result is a good chance of 300 GW of new solar per year in 2025.
GW is a measure of capacity, not output.

The one bit of data I have is in 2017 there was 398 GW capacity installed that produced 460 TWH  electricity in the year. That equates to about 1.150 hrs per annum at full blast.

So an annual 300 GW capacity increase will give about 350 TWH additional electricity per annum for the entire world.
That equates to just over 1.5 % of the energy harvested from China's 2018 coal production, or 42% of the annual increase in 2018 of China's 2018 coal+oil+natural gas energy use.
____________________________________________________
Extracting China's energy data has to be done line by line, bit by bit.
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Ken Feldman

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Re: Renewable Energy
« Reply #4337 on: November 20, 2019, 08:57:21 PM »
Geroncrat,

You can get up to date statistics here:

https://chinaenergyportal.org/en/2019-q3-electricity-and-energy-statistics/

As you can see, the growth in carbon-free electricity generation from 2018 to 2019 is quite impressive:




gerontocrat

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Re: Renewable Energy
« Reply #4338 on: November 21, 2019, 12:06:58 AM »
Geroncrat,

You can get up to date statistics here:

https://chinaenergyportal.org/en/2019-q3-electricity-and-energy-statistics/

As you can see, the growth in carbon-free electricity generation from 2018 to 2019 is quite impressive:


Thanks for the link, Ken.

Maybe from that + total production data from National Statistics it will be possible to have a guess of how much coal goes for electricity generation and how much for steel, cement etc etc etc.

Once again it is not really about what can be done (we have the technology) but what will be done. e.g. The UK Govt is making loads of policies - but their own committee says progress has stalled.

In China - what will Xi Jing decide - my guess it is all about consolidating his power, not about the necessity of implementing renewables to and beyond Paris 2015.
"Para a Causa do Povo a Luta Continua!"
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rboyd

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Re: Renewable Energy
« Reply #4339 on: November 22, 2019, 09:28:56 AM »
Nice source of up to date stats.

We have to be very careful with year on year comparisons for especially hydro, as rainfall levels can be very different year over year. Chinese hydro capacity only went up 1.2%, so must be due to heavier rainfall - as with India this year as well. That big jump in hydro kept the thermal (coal, nat gas and biomass) increase down.

Nuclear and wind increases look more in line with capacity growth. Solar is lower than capacity growth, maybe less sun with all the rain? Coal production (its near the bottom of the page) went up quite a bit, not good news for Australian coal exports. The biggest addition of new capacity was also thermal.




Ken Feldman

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Re: Renewable Energy
« Reply #4340 on: November 22, 2019, 11:40:49 PM »
While the closure of the huge Navajo coal plant got a lot of attention, the installation new solar farms on Tribal lands is an increasing source of revenue for the Tribes.

https://www.upi.com/Top_News/US/2019/11/22/As-coal-dwindles-Southwest-tribal-solar-farms-pump-out-power/9411574198476/

Quote
U.S. News Nov. 22, 2019 / 2:30 AM
As coal dwindles, Southwest tribal solar farms pump out power
By Jean Lotus

DENVER, Nov. 22 (UPI) -- New, large-scale solar farms are bringing jobs to reservations and electricity for the first time to families living on tribal lands in remote areas of the Southwest.

Along with selling renewable energy on a large scale to cities like Albuquerque and Los Angeles, solar power generated by tribes pays for infrastructure to power up homes that have been waiting decades for electricity.

The Navajo Tribal Utilities Authority successfully brought online two large solar projects that generate 55 megawatts in Kayenta, Ariz., over the past year. The two sites now provide enough electricity to power the entire 17-million-acre reservation.

Building the two solar farms employed more than 400 people, most of them tribal members, said Deenise Becenti, the utility's spokeswoman.

Quote
"Tribal lands in the Southwest are the Saudi Arabia of solar because they're largely under-developed and undeveloped," said Karl Cates, a Santa Fe-based energy analyst for the Institute for Energy Economics and Financial Analysis, a think tank that studies sustainable energy.

"Solar is gaining market share much faster than anyone thought it would have as recently as a year ago, and it's all market-driven," Cates said.

New Mexico's Public Regulation Commission heard a proposal earlier this month to approve the Jicarilla Solar Project, a 500-acre, 50-megawatt solar farm on Jicarilla Apache Nation tribal lands in northern New Mexico's Rio Arriba County.

Through an agreement with Public Service Co. of New Mexico, the deal will provide electricity to supply Albuquerque with 54 percent of its electric demand.

Ken Feldman

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Re: Renewable Energy
« Reply #4341 on: November 26, 2019, 06:17:08 PM »
Investments in renewables fell from 2017 to 2018, mostly due to spending cutbacks in China and India, which have overbuilt their electric capacity in recent years.

https://oilprice.com/Latest-Energy-News/World-News/Renewable-Investment-Falls-In-Emerging-Markets.html

Quote
Renewable Investment Falls In Emerging Markets
By Tsvetana Paraskova - Nov 25, 2019

New energy investment in emerging economies slipped last year to US$133 billion, far from the 2017 record of US$169 billion, mostly due to a slowdown in China, BloombergNEF said in its annual Climatescope report on Monday. 

China, because of is massive share in new clean energy investments globally, was responsible for the majority of the decline in investments, according to BloombergNEF’s findings.

Investment in new-build solar, wind, biomass, wind, small hydro, geothermal, and biofuels capacity in China fell to US$86 billion in 2018 from US$122 billion in 2017, the report showed. Other major markets, including India and Brazil, also saw annual declines in new clean energy investments, BloombergNEF said. 

Some positive news in the report:

Quote
Excluding China, India, and Brazil, clean energy investment in emerging markets rose in 2018 to a record US$34 billion, from US$30 billion in 2017, according to BloombergNEF.

And keep in mind that with the decreasing prices of wind, solar and batteries, more capacity can be installed for less money.  From the report:

http://global-climatescope.org/assets/data/reports/climatescope-2019-report-en.pdf

Quote
Excluding China, new clean energy installations in emerging markets grew 21% and reached a new record, with 36GW commissioned in 2018, up from 30GW in 2017.This is twice the clean energy capacity added in 2015 and three timesthe capacity installed in 2013.

Quote
Clean energy investment is spiking in many less traditional clean energy markets.  When excluding the three biggest markets (China, India and Brazil), clean energy investment jumped to $34 billion in 2018 from $30 billion in 2017. Most notably, Vietnam, South Africa, Mexico and Morocco led the rankings with a combined investment of $16 billion in 2018.

Sigmetnow

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Re: Renewable Energy
« Reply #4342 on: November 27, 2019, 08:57:10 PM »
Denial of electricity rate price hike for Montana homeowners with solar
Quote
NorthWestern Energy, Montana’s largest monopoly utility based in South Dakota, was told by the Public Service Commission (PSC) this week that it cannot charge homeowners with solar panels a higher rate for electricity. Further, it also cannot reduce the refund homeowners get for generating their own electricity.

The PSC said NorthWestern hadn’t presented enough information to justify the price hike (they had two years to gather data), and said they could come back when they’d gathered more information. The PSC was unanimous in its decision to reject NorthWestern’s attempt to charge solar customers.

According to the Missoula Current:

NorthWestern Energy tried to get permission to add a demand charge of $40-$45 a month to the utility bills of those with new rooftop solar systems. Those with existing systems would not have the additional charge. The utility tried to justify the charge as a way to recoup fixed transmission and distribution costs.

Andrew Valainis, executive director of the Missoula-based Montana Renewable Energy Association, said:

Montanans value self-reliance and resilience, two important benefits of rooftop solar and other distributed generation systems. The ruling today preserves and protects those values.
https://electrek.co/2019/11/27/egeb-epa-deregulation-chemical-plant-explosion-port-neches/
People who say it cannot be done should not interrupt those who are doing it.

TerryM

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Re: Renewable Energy
« Reply #4343 on: November 28, 2019, 11:19:47 AM »
^^
The burden of those "fixed transmission & distribution costs" will presumably be born by those who can't, for one reason or another, install a solar system.


The rich get richer & the poor are picking up the tab.
Terry

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Re: Renewable Energy
« Reply #4344 on: November 28, 2019, 02:15:42 PM »
^^
The burden of those "fixed transmission & distribution costs" will presumably be born by those who can't, for one reason or another, install a solar system.


The rich get richer & the poor are picking up the tab.
Terry
So do you support the proposed $40 monthly charge on those with solar?

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Re: Renewable Energy
« Reply #4345 on: November 28, 2019, 02:51:11 PM »
^^
The burden of those "fixed transmission & distribution costs" will presumably be born by those who can't, for one reason or another, install a solar system.


The rich get richer & the poor are picking up the tab.
Terry
So do you support the proposed $40 monthly charge on those with solar?
South Australia (with the assistance of Terry's favourite hero Musk(?)) have a scheme to plug lower-income households in social housing into the grid from their own solar power.

It seems to be working well. But such help to low-income households no longer fits the perverted economic model as implemented in the Anglo-Saxon world.
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Re: Renewable Energy
« Reply #4346 on: November 28, 2019, 03:26:26 PM »
The problem with such charges is batteries and solar are getting cheaper.
Soon it will be economic to simply switch of your grid connection and rely  only on solar and batteries in many places .
leaving a smaller number paying the fixed cost of maintaining the grid making it more economic to switch off.

 In NZ the grid is owned by a  state-owned enterprise separate from the company's you buy the electricity off. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Transpower_New_Zealand.
We already have a component of an electricity bill that represents a line charge for the transmission infrastructure . In my case it was  cheaper  to  go off grid than pay for the 350 meters of cabling from my house  to the entrance of the property and the on going line charge.
« Last Edit: November 28, 2019, 06:42:01 PM by KiwiGriff »

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Re: Renewable Energy
« Reply #4347 on: November 28, 2019, 06:58:28 PM »
Work continues on 'world's most powerful tidal turbine'
• The turbine is slated to be operational in 2020 and will use a 72-meter-long “floating superstructure” to support two 1 MW turbines.
• Contracts have previously been awarded for platform manufacturing and anchors.
Quote
The blades for what is being described as the “world’s most powerful tidal turbine” will be manufactured by a firm based in the south of England, according to a contract announcement Thursday.

AC Marine & Composites, which has facilities in the English county of Hampshire, will make four 10-meter long blades for Orbital Marine Power’s O2 tidal turbine.

In the announcement Thursday, Orbital Marine Power said the turbine would have a swept area of more than 600 square meters and be able to generate “over 2 MW from tidal stream resources.”

The turbine is slated to be operational in 2020 and will be able to generate electricity for more than 1,700 U.K. homes. It will use a 72-meter-long “floating superstructure” to support two 1 MW turbines. ...
https://www.cnbc.com/2019/11/28/work-continues-on-worlds-most-powerful-tidal-turbine.html
People who say it cannot be done should not interrupt those who are doing it.

TerryM

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Re: Renewable Energy
« Reply #4348 on: November 28, 2019, 09:44:32 PM »
^^
The burden of those "fixed transmission & distribution costs" will presumably be born by those who can't, for one reason or another, install a solar system.


The rich get richer & the poor are picking up the tab.
Terry
So do you support the proposed $40 monthly charge on those with solar?
South Australia (with the assistance of Terry's favourite hero Musk(?)) have a scheme to plug lower-income households in social housing into the grid from their own solar power.

It seems to be working well. But such help to low-income households no longer fits the perverted economic model as implemented in the Anglo-Saxon world.
Could you reword the bolded. I'm sure it's a wonderful program, but can't make out what you're saying.
Thanks


As far as a $40/month charge for those who are on the grid but using solar. If $40 is what it costs, then that's ~ to what they should pay. I put the wiggle room there to accommodate reasonable profit/ROI and/or a reasonable adjustment to encourage solar use.


When electrical providers can't charge enough to perform needed maintenance, bad things happen (see PG&E). Any elements not paying their fair share are part of the problem - not part of the solution.


Elon's GF1 will be fully powered by rooftop solar panels in just another 33 days, and may even be pumping energy back into Story County's grid before then. Since millions were spent running lines to the relatively remote location, I'd want some of the expense of those soon to be stranded assets paid for by his company. Otherwise everyone else would be forced to pay for power lines that no one will be making use of. Doesn't this seem fair and equitable?


Just as the thousands arriving in Dodger Stadium via Elon's once Hyped tunnel shouldn't be forced to pay for parking places that they won't be using, those not using solar shouldn't foot the bill for those who do.


As an aside.


Elon's trial starts this Tuesday and is expected to last through the following Monday. Musk has stated adamantly that he will not settle and that he will be in court ready to testify when called. Since Musk has always been a man of his word I expect nothing less of him. Backing out at this late date would brand him a coward & only serve as encouragement to the other ~799 awaiting their turn.
Direct links from the courtroom are unlikely, but Lin Wood has been surprisingly open regarding the content of the depositions, and even his strategy. The bar is set very low as Unsworthy has been found not to be a "public figure". All that's required is a preponderance of evidence that Musk was "negligent", his intent is now immaterial, & only 75% of the jury need to find for Vern.
If conflicts should arise about who said what, the court stenographer's record should set things straight.


I won't be holding my breath waiting for Elon's entrance, but all of his fans should at least make an appearance and give him a rousing hero's welcome - Hell, he could show up in the Cyber Truck!
Terry


BeeKnees

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Re: Renewable Energy
« Reply #4349 on: November 28, 2019, 10:48:42 PM »

Elon's GF1 will be fully powered by rooftop solar panels in just another 33 days, and may even be pumping energy back into Story County's grid before then. Since millions were spent running lines to the relatively remote location, I'd want some of the expense of those soon to be stranded assets paid for by his company. Otherwise everyone else would be forced to pay for power lines that no one will be making use of. Doesn't this seem fair and equitable?
If these lines are supporting the factory during periods when solar doesn't meet demand and feeding power into the grid when it exceeds demand then it's hard to see it as stranded assets.


The reference to Australia is a plan in place where social housing has solar and powerwalls fitted to lower the bills for the residents but also supplies energy back into the grid from the virtual power plant this scheme creates

https://virtualpowerplant.sa.gov.au/virtual-power-plant
https://ww.electrek.co/2019/07/26/tesla-virtual-power-plant-australia-savinigs-phase-3/
« Last Edit: November 28, 2019, 10:53:51 PM by BeeKnees »