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Sigmetnow

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Re: Renewable Energy
« Reply #2300 on: December 20, 2017, 04:19:24 PM »
U.K.:
National Grid to trial solar, wind in frequency response markets next year
Quote
National Grid has confirmed its intent to trial distributed energy generators including solar PV as sources of frequency response next year.

The system operator included the trial within its Product Roadmap for Frequency Response and Reserve, published earlier today to update industry stakeholders as to its new thinking on grid balancing markets.

Within the document National Grid said it wanted to trial a market which could enable providers of frequency response that are incapable of forecasting or controlling their availability, paying specific mention to solar and wind generators. ...
https://www.solarpowerportal.co.uk/news/national_grid_to_trial_solar_wind_in_frequency_response_markets_next_year


See also: how the big Tesla battery in Australia responded recently to maintain frequency stability:
https://forum.arctic-sea-ice.net/index.php/topic,1150.msg136660.html#msg136660
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Sigmetnow

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Re: Renewable Energy
« Reply #2301 on: December 22, 2017, 06:55:58 PM »
What’s better than a big solar plant?  A big solar plant that comes online early!

Latin America’s largest PV project comes online
The Villanueva III projects, part of the 754 MW Villanueva complex, has started to inject power to the Mexican grid nine months ahead of schedule. Part of the solar park is still under construction by Italian energy company Enel.
Quote
The government said the solar park has so far generated an average of 4.18 MWh and has reached a maximum of 11.74 MWh. The solar facility, the capacity of which is expected to be raised to 250 MW soon, has started operations nine months ahead of scheduled.

When completed, the 327 MW solar park, which is part of the 754 MW Villanueva solar complex, will be Latin America’s largest PV power plant.
...
https://www.pv-magazine.com/2017/12/20/latin-americas-largest-pv-project-comes-online/
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Sigmetnow

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Re: Renewable Energy
« Reply #2302 on: December 25, 2017, 01:29:35 AM »
Free Power on the Cards for German Factories This Christmas
Quote
After a cold snap roiled Europe’s energy markets earlier this month, mild weather and a surge in wind power just in time for Christmas will probably bring free electricity to some consumers in Europe’s biggest economy.

As thousands of Mittelstand factories from Berlin to Bremen close or pare back output during the festive season, maximum power use in Germany is poised to slump by more than a quarter between Thursday and Christmas Day. With forecasts of near-record wind-power output and temperatures as much as 6 degrees Celsius (10.8 Fahrenheit) above normal, prices for some hours on Saturday have already settled below zero. ...
https://www.bloomberg.com/amp/news/articles/2017-12-22/free-power-on-the-cards-for-german-factories-this-christmas
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tombond

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Re: Renewable Energy
« Reply #2303 on: December 26, 2017, 05:40:22 AM »
The Danish Energy Agency maintains a data base of wind turbines containing valuable service life information.
 
Their Excel data show that as of the end of November 2017, Denmark have built and operated 9,310 wind turbines, of which 3219, or 35% have been decommissioned. 
https://ens.dk/en/our-responsibilities/wind-power

Of those decommissioned, the mean service life is 17.9 years.
   
Twenty-nine of the decommissioned wind turbines operated less than two years, five never operated at all, and 114 operated for less than 10 years. 
 
The longest service life was 36 years, with 18 lasting more than 30 years.

Of the 6,091 turbines still operating there are 106 with service life longer than 30 years, the longest is 39.5 years with a mean age of 14 years.

Bob Wallace

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Re: Renewable Energy
« Reply #2304 on: December 26, 2017, 06:37:59 PM »
The Danish Energy Agency maintains a data base of wind turbines containing valuable service life information.
 
Their Excel data show that as of the end of November 2017, Denmark have built and operated 9,310 wind turbines, of which 3219, or 35% have been decommissioned. 
https://ens.dk/en/our-responsibilities/wind-power

Of those decommissioned, the mean service life is 17.9 years.
   
Twenty-nine of the decommissioned wind turbines operated less than two years, five never operated at all, and 114 operated for less than 10 years. 
 
The longest service life was 36 years, with 18 lasting more than 30 years.

Of the 6,091 turbines still operating there are 106 with service life longer than 30 years, the longest is 39.5 years with a mean age of 14 years.

Looking through the list of decommissioned wind turbines the first thing one notices is how most were very small turbines by current standards.  Replacing small turbines with larger turbines with much higher hub heights can make economic sense, even before those small turbines are worn out.

If you look back at the history of US nuclear reactors you'll see that we had many that operated for only a few years.  For our 34 closed reactors by 2014 the average lifespan was 17.4 years.  Nine didn't make it 10 years.  One melted down before it was a year old.  Only one of those lasted 40 years.

34 closed out of 132 total opened US reactors.  26%. 

That does not include the post 2014 closures which were due to financial failure.

eta:  One US reactor was built but never started.  Upon completion it was determined that in the case of a meltdown there was no way to evacuate the surrounding population.

Sigmetnow

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Re: Renewable Energy
« Reply #2305 on: December 27, 2017, 04:36:29 PM »
‘This solar panel saved my life’
Quote
Part of solar power’s allure is the ease with which one can get electricity out of ‘simple’ hardware in very complex moments. In southeast Asia, Africa, the Middle East and the Caribbean we’re seeing solar power – right now – offering huge services to people in trying times. ...
https://electrek.co/2017/12/26/this-solar-panel-saved-my-life/

“The purpose of writing this article is to show how solar power is having an affect on more than just western lifestyles and upgrades to our homes, but that its importance has grown in far more areas.

Before we even consider the climate benefit in lowering the amounts of CO2 being produced, or the health benefits in that we’re not putting things in the air that we later breathe in, or the economic benefits in that the price of energy is coming down – we have the security benefit being delivered to these high risk groups.

That’s a thing to be thankful for this holiday season.”
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Sigmetnow

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Re: Renewable Energy
« Reply #2306 on: December 27, 2017, 04:47:14 PM »
Men worry that eco-friendly behaviors might brand them as feminine.

Men Resist Green Behavior as Un-Manly
A surprising reason for resistance to environmental goods and habits
Quote
Women have long surpassed men in the arena of environmental action; across age groups and countries, females tend to live a more eco-friendly lifestyle. Compared to men, women litter less, recycle more, and leave a smaller carbon footprint. Some researchers have suggested that personality differences, such as women’s prioritization of altruism, may help to explain this gender gap in green behavior.

Our own research suggests an additional possibility: men may shun eco-friendly behavior because of what it conveys about their masculinity. It’s not that men don’t care about the environment. But they also tend to want to feel macho, and they worry that eco-friendly behaviors might brand them as feminine.

The research, conducted with three other colleagues, consisted of seven experiments involving more than 2,000 American and Chinese participants. We showed that there is a psychological link between eco-friendliness and perceptions of femininity. Due to this “green-feminine stereotype,” both men and women judged eco-friendly products, behaviors, and consumers as more feminine than their non-green counterparts.  In one experiment, participants of both sexes described an individual who brought a reusable canvas bag to the grocery store as more feminine than someone who used a plastic bag—regardless of whether the shopper was a male or female.  In another experiment, participants perceived themselves to be more feminine after recalling a time when they did something good versus bad for the environment.

Men may eschew green products and behaviors to avoid feeling feminine.  In one study, we threatened the masculinity of male participants by showing them a pink gift card with a floral design and asking them to imagine using the card to purchase three products (lamp, backpack, and batteries).  Compared to men shown a standard gift card, threatened men were more likely to choose the non-green rather than green version of each item.  The idea that emasculated men try to reassert their masculinity through non-environmentally-friendly choices suggests that in addition to littering, wasting water, or using too much electricity, one could harm the environment merely by making men feel feminine.

Ironically, although men are often considered to be less sensitive than women, they seem to be particularly sensitive when it comes to perceptions of their gender identity. In fact, a previous study suggests that men find it to be more difficult than women to choose between masculine and feminine versions of everyday food and household items and will usually change their preferences to be more manly when allowed time to think about their decisions. Something as simple as holding a purse, ordering a colorful drink, or talking in a high voice can lead to social harm, so men tend to keep a sharp eye out for any of these potential snares. ...
https://www.scientificamerican.com/article/men-resist-green-behavior-as-un-manly/
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Sigmetnow

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Re: Renewable Energy
« Reply #2307 on: December 27, 2017, 08:59:39 PM »
Saw the article on record high spot prices for PJM; did a quick search regarding PJM renewables.
PJM Interconnection system encompasses all or parts of Delaware, Illinois, Indiana, Kentucky, Maryland, Michigan, New Jersey, North Carolina, Ohio, Pennsylvania, Tennessee, Virginia, West Virginia and the District of Columbia.

Frigid Eastern U.S. Has Spot Power Trading Near 3-Year High
- Prices in PJM Interconnection jumped to most since Feb. 2015
- Chicago may only reach high of 9 degrees Fahrenheit today
https://www.bloomberg.com/amp/news/articles/2017-12-27/frigid-eastern-u-s-has-spot-power-trading-near-3-year-high

The twelve PJM member states have renewable portfolio standards ranging from 18-25 percent.  PJM noted in 2014 they could handle 30% without problems.
http://www.irecusa.org/2014/03/pjm-grid-operators-we-can-handle-30-percent-renewable-energy-integration-and-heres-how/

Found a dashboard for PJM renewables data: https://dataviewer.pjm.com/dataviewer/pages/public/solarpower.jsf
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Sigmetnow

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Re: Renewable Energy
« Reply #2308 on: December 28, 2017, 07:45:41 PM »
Fun fact:  about 85% of U.S. wind turbines are located in Republican districts.

In West Texas, wind power means jobs, and climate change talk is beside the point.
It’s like finding Jesus.  With a steady paycheck.
Quote
With one more hoist, I could look out the hatch that opened up to the sky, the blades reaching to infinity, airplane wings on end. This is what everyone I spoke to in the wind industry loves the most about this work. It is the exact opposite of descending deep into the earth to mine coal in shafts no taller than the height of a small child. There is risk to wind work—an arc flash, a long fall—but never the prospect of being trapped underground for days as there is with coal. There are no oil leaks that can't be staunched. It felt like freedom. Energy freedom. Professional freedom. Economic freedom. Our turbine's blades were still, but I could see dozens of others spinning along the horizon below, the wind that blew through them altered, molecules shifted. ...
https://insideclimatenews.org/news/26122017/wind-energy-jobs-booming-texas-clean-renewable-power-climate-change
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Sigmetnow

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Re: Renewable Energy
« Reply #2309 on: December 29, 2017, 04:20:32 PM »
Back to the future:
High-voltage direct-current transmission lines hold the key to slashing greenhouse gases.

How to Get Wyoming Wind to California, and Cut 80% of U.S. Carbon Emissions
Quote
Several miles south of Rawlins, Wyoming, on a cattle ranch east of the Continental Divide, construction crews have begun laying down roads and pads that could eventually underpin up to 1,000 wind turbines. Once complete, the Chokecherry and Sierra Madre project could generate around 12 million megawatt-hours of electricity annually, making it the nation’s largest wind farm.

But how do you get that much wind power to where it’s actually needed?

The Denver-based company behind the project hopes to erect a series of steel transmission towers that would stretch a high-voltage direct-current transmission line 730 miles across the American West. It could carry as much as 3,000 megawatts of Wyoming wind power to the electricity markets of California, Nevada, and Arizona. With the right deals in place, the transmission line could deliver solar-generated electricity back as well, balancing Wyoming’s powerful late-afternoon winds with California’s bright daytime sun. ...
https://www.technologyreview.com/s/609766/how-to-get-wyoming-wind-to-california-and-cut-80-of-us-carbon-emissions/

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Sigmetnow

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Re: Renewable Energy
« Reply #2310 on: December 29, 2017, 04:44:29 PM »
Nissan promotes solar energy with new 2018 LEAF
Quote
The Japanese automaker announced yesterday:

Owners of the new Nissan LEAF in Japan can receive free installation of solar panels for their homes if they sign up for an electricity retail plan offered by Ecosystem Japan. The offer is part of a joint campaign by Nissan Motor Co., Ltd. and Ecosystem Japan. It aims to promote the use of clean energy to power the 100% electric Nissan LEAF.

New LEAF owners who sign up for Ecosystem’s Jibun Denryoku (“personal electricity”) plan qualify for free installation of a solar power generation system. They can also get a discount on a plan called the Daytime Assist Plan. Participants are encouraged to charge their LEAFs during the day using electricity from their solar panels, or at night when demand for grid power is lower.”

Ecosystem Japan is a solar panel installer in Japan.

Now, the “free installation of solar panels” is not as simple as that. The footnote says that New Leaf owners need to sign up for a 20-year power purchase agreement and after the contract is ended, the ownership of the system is transferred to the Leaf owner for free.
https://electrek.co/2017/12/28/nissan-promotes-solar-energy-with-new-2018-leaf/
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Sigmetnow

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Re: Renewable Energy
« Reply #2311 on: December 29, 2017, 04:58:08 PM »
U.K.

Renewables generated triple the power of coal in 2017, UK figures show
As the worst-polluting coal plants near the end of their life, the focus must turn to tackling gas dependency, says analysis firm
Quote
British wind farms generated more electricity than coal plants on more than 75% of days this year, an analysis of energy figures has shown.

Solar also outperformed coal more than half the time, the data provided by website MyGridGB revealed.

Overall, renewables provided more power than coal plants on 315 days in 2017, figures up to 12 December showed. Wind beat coal on 263 days, and solar outperformed the fossil fuel on 180 days.

Between April and August inclusive, coal generation exceeded solar on only 10 days.

In total, renewables generated more than three times the amount of electricity as coal over the year to 12 December.

The figures – provided by BM Reports and Sheffield University – reflect a year in which a number of green records have been set for the power sector, including the first full day without any coal power in the system, record solar generation and tumbling prices for new offshore wind farms. ...
https://www.theguardian.com/environment/2017/dec/28/renewables-power-coal-2017-uk-figures
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gerontocrat

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Re: Renewable Energy
« Reply #2312 on: December 30, 2017, 04:31:47 PM »
Interesting ----

https://www.theguardian.com/environment/2017/dec/29/is-this-the-future-dutch-plan-vast-windfarm-island-in-north-sea

Quote
Is this the future? Dutch plan vast windfarm island in North Sea
Advanced plans by Dutch power grid aims to build power hub possibly at Dogger Bank whose scale would dwarf current offshore sites

Perhaps 30 GW.
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Sigmetnow

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Re: Renewable Energy
« Reply #2313 on: December 31, 2017, 12:46:50 AM »
California is powering toward its climate goals. But it only gets harder from here.
Quote
...
But for all the progress California has made cleaning up its electricity, slashing carbon emissions is only going to get harder from here.

Just 19 percent of planet-warming emissions tracked by the state came from electricity in 2015, the most recent year for which data is available, according to the California Air Resources Board. Twenty-three percent came from industrial facilities like oil refineries and cement plants, with smaller contributions from agriculture, gas heating systems at homes and businesses, and chemicals used in refrigeration and air conditioning.

The biggest source of climate pollution was transportation. Thirty-nine percent of California's emissions came from cars, trucks, buses and other vehicles in 2015.
...
http://www.desertsun.com/story/news/environment/2017/12/26/california-climate-change-renewable-energy-solar-wind-carbon-electric-vehicles-jerry-brown-geotherma/970840001/
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Bob Wallace

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Re: Renewable Energy
« Reply #2314 on: December 31, 2017, 02:02:37 AM »
Quote
Thirty-nine percent of California's emissions came from cars, trucks, buses and other vehicles in 2015.

We know the fix for that 39%.  It won't be hard, just take some time.

 
Quote
Twenty-three percent came from industrial facilities like oil refineries and cement plants

And the oil refinery part will disappear at the same time.

Sigmetnow

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Re: Renewable Energy
« Reply #2315 on: December 31, 2017, 07:49:02 PM »
China Building Second Enormous Floating Solar Farm on Top of Defunct Coal Mine
Quote
An old coal mine is being reborn as an enormous renewable energy plant.

The state-run energy company China Three Gorges New Energy Co. is building a 150-megawatt floating solar farm that sits on top of a lake that formed from a collapsed coal mine in the eastern Chinese city of Huainan, Bloomberg reported.

Construction of the $151 million facility started in July and is already partially connected to the grid. The whole plant is expected to switch on by May 2018, and can power about 94,000 homes at full capacity.

The project takes the “world's largest" title from China's other floating solar farm in the same city of Huainan—the 40-megawatt farm by Sungrow Power Supply Co. that also sits on top of a former coal mine.

These projects have a number of benefits. First, it repurposes an out-of-use coal mine. Furthermore, as the World Economic Forum noted, floating solar panels are more effective because water cools them down. Finally, it's helping China move away from coal, the most polluting fossil fuel.

China, the largest producer and consumer of coal, has significantly ramped up its investment in renewable energy. The Asian country has more solar capacity than any other country in the world and it intends to invest at least $361 billion in renewables by 2020.
https://www.ecowatch.com/china-floating-solar-farm-2516880461.amp.html
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budmantis

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Re: Renewable Energy
« Reply #2316 on: January 01, 2018, 05:07:50 PM »
Congrats Sigmetnow on your 10,000th post!

BudM

Sigmetnow

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Re: Renewable Energy
« Reply #2317 on: January 01, 2018, 05:20:44 PM »
Congrats Sigmetnow on your 10,000th post!

BudM

Thank you!  And so... many more!  ;D
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Sigmetnow

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Re: Renewable Energy
« Reply #2318 on: January 03, 2018, 09:28:55 PM »
New York state announces new clean energy goals. 

Empire State drops $260M on energy storage – sets target of 1500MW new volume installed by 2025
Quote
On January 3rd, New York governor Andrew Cuomo delivered a state energy storage target of 1500MW via the private market by 2025 and has put up $260 million in state money to help drive the investment.

In the annual “State of the State” address, varying proposals  – from combating MS-13, to cleaning up the Hudson River, to expanding clean energy jobs – were delivered to start the new year. The energy storage target delivered seems to be an extension or culmination of prior state legislation requiring targets be set.

The 20th proposal of New York’s State of the State address was specifically directed at “clean energy jobs and climate agenda.” Here are the key sub-components of the legislation:

- Expanding the Regional Greenhouse Gas Initiative (RGGI) and reducing emissions from the highest-polluting, high demand “Peaker” power plants
- Issuing solicitations in 2018 and 2019 to develop 800MW of offshore wind while developing the job ecosystem surrounding the industry
- A 1500MW energy storage target, a $200 million fund at the state Green Bank to help drive pricing down for energy storage through strategic deployment
- A “Zero Cost Solar for All” program for 10,000 Low-Income New Yorkers
- NYSERDA being directed to invest at least $60 million in storage pilots plus other activities that reduce barriers and costs when deploying energy storage – such as developing smarter permitting, customer acquisition, interconnection, and financing processes. ...
https://electrek.co/2018/01/03/empire-state-spends-260m-on-energy-storage-target-of-1500mw/
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sidd

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Re: Renewable Energy
« Reply #2319 on: January 05, 2018, 07:57:27 AM »
ITC finds that  "The government of China’s industrial policies, plans, and support programs took advantage of the existence of programs implemented by the U.S. government to encourage renewable energy consumption ..."

Trump could choose to impose tariffs.

https://www.utilitydive.com/news/new-itc-report-finds-china-took-advantage-of-us-commitment-to-renewables/513941/

ITC finding at:

https://d12v9rtnomnebu.cloudfront.net/paychek/ITC_Report_Suniva.pdf

sidd

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Re: Renewable Energy
« Reply #2320 on: January 05, 2018, 06:50:16 PM »
ITC finds that  "The government of China’s industrial policies, plans, and support programs took advantage of the existence of programs implemented by the U.S. government to encourage renewable energy consumption ..."

Trump could choose to impose tariffs.

https://www.utilitydive.com/news/new-itc-report-finds-china-took-advantage-of-us-commitment-to-renewables/513941/

ITC finding at:

https://d12v9rtnomnebu.cloudfront.net/paychek/ITC_Report_Suniva.pdf

sidd
Correct me if I'm wrong.
The International Trade Commision, better known as the United States International Trade Commission, has ruled that China "took advantage" of the American commitment to replace dirty coal and oil generating plants with clean energy sources by nefariously building, and offering for sale, the clean energy hardware needed to supply the American government with exactly what it said it required to fulfil it's commitment.
They then proceeded to build so many of these panels so cheaply that the few American competitors could not compete.
Thankfully, by sharply limiting Americans access to these low cost solar panels, and also by sharply increasing the cost to Americans, the once struggling, now bankrupt, suppliers will be able to sell their overpriced products. Always assuming that the American product will prove cost effective.
Unfortunately, this may have an adverse effect on the American commitment to replace dirty energy sources that started this whole process. :-\


MAGAAC - Make America Great At Any Cost
Terry

oren

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Re: Renewable Energy
« Reply #2321 on: January 05, 2018, 07:28:29 PM »
Well said Terry. The bad Chinese are selling these panels (that give us the ability to generate electricity for free) for too cheap. This must be stopped...

TerryM

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Re: Renewable Energy
« Reply #2322 on: January 05, 2018, 07:47:47 PM »
Thanks Oren.


I think it goes even further. If American companies have to compete against foreign companies with lower energy costs, these American companies are again going to find it difficult to compete. At this point does the government jump in with even more tariffs and additional minimum selling costs?


Americans may be forced to pay exorbitant prices domestically, but no one out of the country will deliberately pay more than needed for a product, so America is cutting it's own throat as far as the export market goes.


Terry


Alexander555

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Re: Renewable Energy
« Reply #2323 on: January 05, 2018, 07:57:05 PM »
Well said Terry. The bad Chinese are selling these panels (that give us the ability to generate electricity for free) for too cheap. This must be stopped...

But your sea is also full with free stuff. The focus never had to be the price, but sustainability.

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Re: Renewable Energy
« Reply #2324 on: January 05, 2018, 09:08:58 PM »
ITC finds that  "The government of China’s industrial policies, plans, and support programs took advantage of the existence of programs implemented by the U.S. government to encourage renewable energy consumption ..."

Trump could choose to impose tariffs.

https://www.utilitydive.com/news/new-itc-report-finds-china-took-advantage-of-us-commitment-to-renewables/513941/

ITC finding at:

https://d12v9rtnomnebu.cloudfront.net/paychek/ITC_Report_Suniva.pdf

sidd
Correct me if I'm wrong.
The International Trade Commision, better known as the United States International Trade Commission, has ruled that China "took advantage" of the American commitment to replace dirty coal and oil generating plants with clean energy sources by nefariously building, and offering for sale, the clean energy hardware needed to supply the American government with exactly what it said it required to fulfil it's commitment.
They then proceeded to build so many of these panels so cheaply that the few American competitors could not compete.
Thankfully, by sharply limiting Americans access to these low cost solar panels, and also by sharply increasing the cost to Americans, the once struggling, now bankrupt, suppliers will be able to sell their overpriced products. Always assuming that the American product will prove cost effective.
Unfortunately, this may have an adverse effect on the American commitment to replace dirty energy sources that started this whole process. :-\


MAGAAC - Make America Great At Any Cost
Terry

Why don't you look up the basis for the US argument that China has been selling panels at below their production costs?



TerryM

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Re: Renewable Energy
« Reply #2325 on: January 05, 2018, 09:35:22 PM »

Why don't you look up the basis for the US argument that China has been selling panels at below their production costs?


The US certainly had no problem bailing out GM when they were selling below production cost back in 2008.


Did the Chinese government provide their solar panel companies with similar cash infusions? You certainly can't stay afloat for long while selling products below production costs.


Terry

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Re: Renewable Energy
« Reply #2326 on: January 05, 2018, 10:15:46 PM »
Terry, it is a violation of international trade law to subsidize the cost of goods sold into another country.


sidd

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Re: Renewable Energy
« Reply #2327 on: January 05, 2018, 11:02:57 PM »
The latest ITC ruling seems based on one from 2012:

https://www.gpo.gov/fdsys/pkg/FR-2012-10-17/pdf/2012-25580.pdf

Listed there are the programs determined to be countervailable

--
A. Programs Determined To Be Countervailable

1. Golden Sun Demonstration Program
2. Preferential Policy Lending
3. Provision of Polysilicon for Less Than Adequate Remuneration (“LTAR”)
4. Provision of Land for LTAR
5. Provision of Electricity for LTAR
6. “Two Free, Three Half” Program for Foreign-Invested Enterprises (“FIEs”)
7. Preferential Tax Program for High or New Technology Enterprises (“HNTEs”)
8. Enterprise Income Tax Law, Research and Development (“R&D”) Program
9. Import Tariff and Value Added Tax (“VAT”) Exemptions for Use of Imported Equipment
10. VAT Rebates on FIE Purchases of Chinese-Made Equipment
11. Discovered Grants
12. Export Credit Subsidy Programs: Export Buyer’s Credits

---

and those not so determined

--
B. Programs Determined To Be Not Used by the Respondents During the POI or To Not Provide
Benefits During the POI
1. Export Product Research and Development Fund
2. Subsidies for Development of “Famous Brands” and “China World Top Brands”
3. Sub-Central Government Subsidies for Development of “Famous Brands” and “China World
Top Brands”
4. Special Energy Fund (Established by Shandong Province)
5. Funds for Outward Expansion of Industries in Guangdong Province
6. Government Provision of Aluminum for LTAR
7. Income Tax Reductions for Export-Oriented FIEs
8. Income Tax Benefits for FIEs Based on Geographic Location
9. Local Income Tax Exemption and Reduction Programs for “Productive” FIEs
10. Tax Refunds for Reinvestment of FIE Profits in Export-Oriented Enterprises
11. Tax Reductions for High and New-Technology Enterprises Involved in Designated Projects
12. Preferential Income Tax Policy for Enterprises in the Northeast Region
13. Guangdong Province Tax Programs
14. VAT and Tariff Exemptions for Purchases of Fixed Assets Under the Foreign
Trade and Development Fund Program
15. Tax Reductions for FIEs Purchasing Chinese-Made Equipment
16. Export Guarantees and Insurance for Green Technology
17. Export Credit Subsidy Program: Export Seller’s Credits
18. Discovered Grants
19. Provision of Float Glass for LTAR
20. The Over-Rebate of VAT Program
---

sidd

oren

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Re: Renewable Energy
« Reply #2328 on: January 06, 2018, 12:17:04 AM »
I can't argue with the claim that the Chinese have been subsidizing the cost of solar panels sold to other countries. But I fail to see the logic of the tariffs. Solar panels are capital goods, something the US should be rolling out in great numbers, both to avoid further impact on the climate, but also because it's a great investment from an economic standpoint. If someone sold me such panels below cost, I would order more and more and install them like mad. If the US is so afraid that its few manufacturers of solar panels would find it impossible to compete, give the manufacturers money in some way (preferential contracts, research grants etc.) and be done with it, instead of sharply slowing down the roll-out of solar installations because of higher costs of imported panels.

Bob Wallace

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Re: Renewable Energy
« Reply #2329 on: January 06, 2018, 12:31:56 AM »
I can't argue with the claim that the Chinese have been subsidizing the cost of solar panels sold to other countries. But I fail to see the logic of the tariffs. Solar panels are capital goods, something the US should be rolling out in great numbers, both to avoid further impact on the climate, but also because it's a great investment from an economic standpoint. If someone sold me such panels below cost, I would order more and more and install them like mad. If the US is so afraid that its few manufacturers of solar panels would find it impossible to compete, give the manufacturers money in some way (preferential contracts, research grants etc.) and be done with it, instead of sharply slowing down the roll-out of solar installations because of higher costs of imported panels.

What if China, the US or some other country decided to ruin the manufacturing base of (insert your country here) by subsidizing their manufacturing, underselling your company's factories, and causing them to go bankrupt? 

(What's your attitude when it comes to monopolies?)
 

TerryM

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Re: Renewable Energy
« Reply #2330 on: January 06, 2018, 12:42:29 AM »
Terry, it is a violation of international trade law to subsidize the cost of goods sold into another country.
Bob
If you prefer to pay more for clean solar power than I, go for it. I'm sure Trump supporters and those invested in coal will want to shake your hand.


I think that Trump is out of his tree, and that he intends to hurt the renewable energy companies while helping those in the fossil fuel business, but I've been wrong before.
Trump arranged it so that Americans wouldn't be tempted to buy those comfortable, economical airplanes that use so much less fuel, and I'm sure that he has nothing but good intentions as he raises the costs of solar across the country.


There was a modicum of sarcasm in portions of the above.
Terry

Bob Wallace

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Re: Renewable Energy
« Reply #2331 on: January 06, 2018, 02:45:48 AM »
Terry, you're basically saying that it's fine with you if I pay for a new EV by stealing your money.

numerobis

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Re: Renewable Energy
« Reply #2332 on: January 06, 2018, 06:49:26 AM »
How the heck is Terry saying that?

It’s fine with Terry (and me, and oren) if you pay for your solar panels using Chinese government subsidies. If the Chinese people want to call that stealing, they can bring it up with their leadership.

oren

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Re: Renewable Energy
« Reply #2333 on: January 06, 2018, 12:22:37 PM »
What if China, the US or some other country decided to ruin the manufacturing base of (insert your country here) by subsidizing their manufacturing, underselling your company's factories, and causing them to go bankrupt? 

(What's your attitude when it comes to monopolies?)
I hate monopolies but this is not the case. Solar panels manufacturing is hardly the US' industrial base, it's almost non-existent. We are not talking about steel, auto, cement, appliances, electronics, whatever. We are talking about products that whoever gets them becomes rich, and the main thing stopping people from deploying them in mass numbers is the price. And the jobs exist mostly in installation, rather than manufacturing. The major economic benefit is in having the product, not in having the industry. In such a case, having another country subsidize them is the best thing that could ever happen to my economy.

crandles

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Re: Renewable Energy
« Reply #2334 on: January 06, 2018, 01:09:01 PM »
What are peoples attitude to the argument that:

Government needs money from taxes from somewhere. Those who can afford to install solar panels have money and can afford to pay some taxes. Thus when solar panels become cheap enough to offer a large return on investment this makes the product a suitable target for some taxes. This is much the same as having stamp duty on property purchases.

(Obviously environmentalists would like to see solar panels get cheaper so they are an obvious no brainer even after taxes are applied. But if government doesn't see GW as a problem, is it a sensible govt policy?)

ghoti

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Re: Renewable Energy
« Reply #2335 on: January 06, 2018, 02:57:33 PM »
Quote
Government needs money from taxes from somewhere
The government already has taxes that apply: sales tax/VAT on the goods and possibly services for purchase and installation, income tax if the PV systems are profitable, property tax if system enhances value of the property, sales tax on electricity excess sold, and so on. Adding additional tax on PV would just be punitive.

Sigmetnow

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Re: Renewable Energy
« Reply #2336 on: January 06, 2018, 03:26:34 PM »
Gas, not renewables, driving coal, nuclear woes; DOE labs show how much
The findings have important implications for DOE's proposal to provide cost recovery for coal and nuclear plants. FERC is expected to respond to that proposal on Wednesday.
Quote
Low natural gas prices, not high renewable energy penetrations, are the main cause of low and negative electricity prices that are negatively impacting coal and nuclear operators, a new report from two DOE national labs finds.
...
The findings have important implications for the current federal proposal to provide cost recovery for generators with 90 days of fuel supply onsite, such as coal and nuclear plants. Advocates for these resources argue they are needed for reliability, but disadvantaged by state and federal supports for variable renewable energies (VREs).
...
Blame it on the gas

There is widespread agreement that electricity prices are trending lower and there are three common answers to why, LBNL research scientist and report co-author Andrew Mills told Utility Dive. One is low natural gas prices, another is flattening load, and the third is the growth of renewables. "But the relative shares of those factors have not been quantified before."

When the researchers did that quantification, they found the impacts of flattened load and high renewables penetrations to be much less significant than the impact of low natural gas prices.
...
Brattle Group Principal Hannes Pfeifenberger told Utility Dive negative pricing gets attention because "it is so counter-intuitive that a price can be negative." It seems to suggest "something is wrong with the market,” he said.

But when coal and nuclear plant operators like FirstEnergy and Exelon "complain about negative prices, they are really complaining about low power prices," Pfeifenberger said. "They argue subsidized wind and solar are depressing the power price, but the report shows that low and negative prices are almost always due to low natural gas prices."
...
Cost versus value

While increasing VRE may not be the main drivers of coal and nuclear retirements, what are the implications of more renewables?

As VRE penetrations grow and the contributions and costs of energy mix components shift, a resource’s value to the system will become more important than its levelized cost of energy (LCOE), the report says.

“LCOE is an imperfect measure of the relative economics of generation resources,” it argues. Generation resources “have widely varying technical and economic characteristics” and “deliver different services” at different locations and times, it adds. Making procurement decisions is more complicated than simply picking the lowest LCOE.

Planners, investors, and forecasters “use complex computer models” to arrive at the least-cost portfolio of resources, the report says. Decisions are based not only on LCOE but also on “the specific values (or costs) that each resource brings to the grid — energy, capacity, balancing, and transmission."
...
https://www.utilitydive.com/news/gas-not-renewables-driving-coal-nuclear-woes-doe-labs-show-how-much/513796/
People who say it cannot be done should not interrupt those who are doing it.

crandles

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Re: Renewable Energy
« Reply #2337 on: January 06, 2018, 04:11:09 PM »
Quote
Government needs money from taxes from somewhere
The government already has taxes that apply: sales tax/VAT on the goods and possibly services for purchase and installation, income tax if the PV systems are profitable, property tax if system enhances value of the property, sales tax on electricity excess sold, and so on. Adding additional tax on PV would just be punitive.

Maybe there are already taxes on these other aspects, but does this really impact the argument that like stamp duty on property sales it is an easy thing to hit because the people buying such systems obviously have available cash.

Does your argument really amount to more than wishfully thinking, I would rather there wasn't tax on them?

(I don't think my 'from each according to ability to pay' argument is going to be well liked. But should government officials think along these lines?)

TerryM

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Re: Renewable Energy
« Reply #2338 on: January 06, 2018, 04:39:32 PM »
A carbon tax would punish coal, oil, and gas - in that order. Perhaps the time has come to integrate this into new trading agreements.
As governments require additional funding, increasing carbon taxes would act to punish methods we want to discourage while allowing wind turbines and solar panels a free ride. This amounts to a subsidy for renewables without actually distributing any government funds.
Coal seems particularly vulnerable at this time and punitive taxation might well see the end of it.
The source of the solar panels seems of far less importance to me than a rapid and broad rollout that benefits everyone.
Terry

Bob Wallace

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Re: Renewable Energy
« Reply #2339 on: January 06, 2018, 05:53:02 PM »
Australia has a lot of coal and the people who own it would love to sell it.

What if the Australian government offered subsidies to build coal plants for a very low price and sell coal at a discount in other countries in order to wipe out the clean energy generation?

People have any problem with that?


TerryM

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Re: Renewable Energy
« Reply #2340 on: January 06, 2018, 07:58:59 PM »
Australia has a lot of coal and the people who own it would love to sell it.

What if the Australian government offered subsidies to build coal plants for a very low price and sell coal at a discount in other countries in order to wipe out the clean energy generation?

People have any problem with that?
I do have a problem with that, but I don't see the relevance.


If Australia pumped billion$ into improving wind turbine technology, then offered their product to the world at a discount, I'd be pleased as punch. :D


Terry

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Re: Renewable Energy
« Reply #2341 on: January 06, 2018, 08:57:02 PM »
Quote
I do have a problem with that, but I don't see the relevance.

It's exactly what China is accused of doing with their subsidy of solar panel manufacturers.  They are pricing their product lower than reasonable cost of production thus forcing panel manufacturers in other countries out of business. 

IIRC the Chinese government has given panel manufacturers very low cost or free loans.  That artificially lowers production cost allowing panels to be sold below the reasonable cost of production.

"Reasonable cost of production" is critical here.

Quote
If Australia pumped billion$ into improving wind turbine technology, then offered their product to the world at a discount, I'd be pleased as punch.

I'm going to assume that you're saying 'offer their product at a better price because of their improved technology'.  That Australia figured out how to make a cheaper turbine. 

That would be fine.  That happens all the time.  There's nothing unfair about figuring out a better way.  Figure out a better way and sell the product at a "reasonable cost of production" and that's fair.  Even if it destroys manufacturing in other countries.


Sigmetnow

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Re: Renewable Energy
« Reply #2342 on: January 06, 2018, 09:22:10 PM »
A small step for solar, but a giant leap for Florida solar political action.

Florida proposes $10 million to solar+storage for ‘critical disaster resilience facilities’
Quote
Florida Representative Holly Raschein has sponsored a new bill in the Florida Legislature to fund a $10 million pilot program installing solar panels and energy storage at strategic public facilities to keep them up and running during critical events and natural disasters.
https://electrek.co/2018/01/05/florida-10-million-solar-storage/
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numerobis

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Re: Renewable Energy
« Reply #2343 on: January 07, 2018, 05:31:34 AM »
If Australia were to pump subsidies into coal (which it does, so this isn’t hypothetical) I’d be opposed.

If China were to pump subsidies into solar (which it does), I’d be happy. Just as happy as if the US did (which it does).

If Denmark were to pump subsidies into windmills (which it did), again, I’m happy.

My interest is not aligned with the owners of plants in the US. I seriously don’t care about them. I do care about switching to renewables. If China wants to subsidize the world switchover, more power to them.

Bob Wallace

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Re: Renewable Energy
« Reply #2344 on: January 07, 2018, 06:01:50 AM »
If Australia were to pump subsidies into coal (which it does, so this isn’t hypothetical) I’d be opposed.

If China were to pump subsidies into solar (which it does), I’d be happy. Just as happy as if the US did (which it does).

If Denmark were to pump subsidies into windmills (which it did), again, I’m happy.

My interest is not aligned with the owners of plants in the US. I seriously don’t care about them. I do care about switching to renewables. If China wants to subsidize the world switchover, more power to them.

Do you understand the difference between subsidizing solar panels and subsidizing killing competition?

Ends justify means for you?

Mathiasdm

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Re: Renewable Energy
« Reply #2345 on: January 07, 2018, 07:06:16 AM »
If Australia were to pump subsidies into coal (which it does, so this isn’t hypothetical) I’d be opposed.

If China were to pump subsidies into solar (which it does), I’d be happy. Just as happy as if the US did (which it does).

If Denmark were to pump subsidies into windmills (which it did), again, I’m happy.

My interest is not aligned with the owners of plants in the US. I seriously don’t care about them. I do care about switching to renewables. If China wants to subsidize the world switchover, more power to them.

The problem are the long-term effects. If China subsidises solar panels until every solar panel manufacturer not based in China goes belly-up, there is no more competition.
At that point, one of the incentives for China-based manufacturers to innovate disappears.

And of course there's also the obvious "big guy bullies everyone else until he's the only game in town".

etienne

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Re: Renewable Energy
« Reply #2346 on: January 07, 2018, 08:30:16 AM »
Do we have any detail how China subsidises solar panels ? I don't believe that they can subsidises all the technologies where they are cheaper than the rest of the world (LED...). I feel that China has somehow good engineers that have low salaries, and good workers with very low salaries.
If they do tax cut, than I would say that it is too bad that the other countries don't do it as well. Subsidies is something that have so many faces that everybody can do it, claiming that they don't.

Bob Wallace

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Re: Renewable Energy
« Reply #2347 on: January 07, 2018, 08:42:57 AM »
My understanding is that Chinese (government?) banks were loaning money to solar panel manufacturers at below market rates.

I think that mixed in with this is a period during which China forced the closure of hundreds of less efficient solar panel factories and those factories sold their panels for whatever they could get for them.  There was a lot of selling for less than cost of production as companies worked to get as much of their money back for materials already purchased. 

That would have been not-allowed dumping.

etienne

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Re: Renewable Energy
« Reply #2348 on: January 07, 2018, 10:42:55 AM »
The question is whether this is a smart industrial strategy or if it is subsidies.

I don't know but I wonder. Forced closing factories is not ok for me.

Yuha

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Re: Renewable Energy
« Reply #2349 on: January 07, 2018, 10:53:48 AM »
Here's an extensive Stanford report on Chinese solar industry:

The New Solar System: China’s Evolving Solar Industry And Its Implications for Competitive Solar Power In the United States and the World
https://www-cdn.law.stanford.edu/wp-content/uploads/2017/03/2017-03-20-Stanford-China-Report.pdf

It includes a lot of information on Chinese subsidies but does not comment on their legality. However, it seems to say that using tariffs is in any case an ineffective way of addressing the issue. One of their recommendations is this:

Quote
Embrace the reality of a globalizing solar industry. U.S. policy bearing on solar should reorient fundamentally so that it seeks to leverage, not defeat, China. More than ever before, the solar industries in China and the United States are intertwined: Shareholders across the globe invest in both of them, capital moves between them, many of the same companies are active in both of them, and market dynamics in one influence fortunes in the other. Key players in both countries increasingly believe that they will profit more if each country focuses on exploiting its comparative advantages in the globalizing solar industry than if it orients policy around trying to beat the other. That conclusion marks a major shift from the thinking that prevailed just five years ago, when the solar sector was more a patchwork of small and distinct national industries than the interconnected, international force it is becoming today.