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NeilT

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Re: Renewable Energy
« Reply #3350 on: February 09, 2019, 09:37:45 AM »
Etienne,

Perhaps you didn't quite understand the advert.  What France is saying is that their electricity is the cheapest of the countries listed.  When you look at the installed PV figures and add the installed Wind figures, this tells a very different story.

There has been Huge criticism in Germany that Solar and Wind projects are being funded by the rest of the electricity consumers.  This chart is a very clear view that this is correct.  Also look at  Denmark.  Massively invested in Wind yet the cost of electricity is more than twice that in France.  In fact the highest in the list.  Tending to show that, for the return, offshore wind is the most expensive power you can generate.

The poster child of "renewable" energy is that it is cheap, in fact so cheap that our costs will plummet.

It is a skewing of the facts, to be true, because what we are seeing, today, is the start up and installation costs being borne by the consumers.  However there are very few people who will be super happy that their electricity costs will fall in 25-50 years so long as they pay double for the next 25 to 50 years.

The other point, not being made by this advert, but I'm pretty sure is being pushed, is that France is already 75% CO2 neutral at the point of production of their electricity.

If there were a bigger advert for a large push to Nuclear I don't know what it is.
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b_lumenkraft

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Re: Renewable Energy
« Reply #3351 on: February 09, 2019, 09:50:28 AM »
France has cheap energy because there is a lot of nuclear power in the grid. From power plants long paid for (also through governmental subsidies). What this chart ignores are the externalities. The French people will pay for all that nuclear waste to handle. Not via the electric bill but via taxes.

When German customer pays more via electric bill then say French, this is because it includes subsidies for renewable energy. See what politics did here? The subsidies we pay to the fossil fuel industry (yes, we still do that!!) is hidden in taxes.

oren

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Re: Renewable Energy
« Reply #3352 on: February 09, 2019, 10:55:06 AM »
For a country now starting on the renewable energy path, the situation would be quite different. PV and wind today cost far less than they did when Germany rolled out its renewable program.
In addition I suspect the German cost is born mainly by residential customers, skewing the data.
« Last Edit: February 09, 2019, 11:04:43 AM by oren »

Neven

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Re: Renewable Energy
« Reply #3353 on: February 09, 2019, 10:58:40 AM »
I believe some of the cost in Germany is also caused by utilities keeping the subsidies for themselves instead of giving back to the consumers. But it's a while since I watched a good documentary on the Energiewende.

As for what Blumenkraft said: +1. France's nuclear disposal and decommissioning is going to cost huge amounts of taxpayer money.
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gerontocrat

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Re: Renewable Energy
« Reply #3354 on: February 09, 2019, 11:15:54 AM »
Found a graph on composition of household electricity bill in Germany -  what a lot of taxes and surcharges. Germany is sensible - using current charges to consumers to help finance renewable energy investment. Most other countries seem to just borrow, borrow, and borrow, and when it comes to nuclear, just ignore the future decommissioning costs. Debt rules OK.

Germany's economy relies on engineering industries - energy intensive. They subsidise industry through electricity prices.

So comparing success or otherwise of energy policy in France and Germany simply through prices prices charged to consumers is of limited value, and may be downright misleading.
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b_lumenkraft

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Re: Renewable Energy
« Reply #3355 on: February 09, 2019, 11:23:22 AM »
Hey Neven,

i never heard of utilities keeping the subsidies for themselves. I will check this out though. I'll get back to you on that one.

For what i understand the Energiewende is working but not as fast as promised. Germany is ought to fail the 2020 emission goals. The electric power sector is on track with ~43% renewable in the grid, so the subsidies worked here at least. The problem is at the carbon tax side. Corporations get CO2 certificates for basically no money at the moment, but they are getting more scarce now. A market that would drive CO2 taxes up seems to develop. (*fingers crossed*)

b_lumenkraft

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Re: Renewable Energy
« Reply #3356 on: February 09, 2019, 11:31:56 AM »
Hey Gerontocrat,

i completely agree.

I also want to add, after ~10 years all these solar panels and windmills are paid for. From then on, there will be cheap energy for the customers and a great margin for the producer. Win-win in my eyes.

Neven

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Re: Renewable Energy
« Reply #3357 on: February 09, 2019, 12:02:44 PM »
Hey Neven,

i never heard of utilities keeping the subsidies for themselves. I will check this out though. I'll get back to you on that one.

It was more something along the lines of 'renewables make things cheaper at certain times, but the utilities (RWE, etc) keep those profits for themselves, instead of distributing back to the German people who made those renewables possible in the first place'.
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b_lumenkraft

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Re: Renewable Energy
« Reply #3358 on: February 09, 2019, 12:57:17 PM »
Ah, i think you are referring to the negative prices at the Strombörse (power market) Neven.

Sometimes, say, a windy and sunny day in spring when the grid is 100% full with renewables, RWE cannot just turn off coal and nuclear plants because they are needed soon after anyway.

Prices for power will now turn negative at the Strombörse and customer (like say France or Poland) will get money if they buy power.

This is insanely absurd if you think of it, but it's a market after all with all its negative implications. And overall it's a minor effect since this is happening only a few days per year.

I would prefer a (totally socialistic) European power agency owning the grid and managing all this but this is not the political will at the moment.

oren

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Re: Renewable Energy
« Reply #3359 on: February 09, 2019, 02:05:41 PM »
I think putting a lot of the cost of renewable deployment on the shoulders of residential customers who are also voters runs the risk of their voting against renewable policies. Voters are often focused on short term issues.

b_lumenkraft

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Re: Renewable Energy
« Reply #3360 on: February 09, 2019, 02:18:23 PM »
Correct! There was a lot of hate in Germany over this law (Erneuerbare Energien Gesetz) fired by corporate shills releasing fake studies and all sorts of fearmongering. They painted a picture that a normal family would pay a 1k euro premium due to this. Gladly the situation has calmed down now.

Sigmetnow

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Re: Renewable Energy
« Reply #3361 on: February 09, 2019, 05:50:17 PM »
Australia is on track to meet its Paris climate commitments five years earlier than expected — in 2025 — according to new research from the Australian National University.
Quote
Per capita, the country is installing renewable energy faster than China, Japan, the United States, and the European Union.

"The electricity sector is on track to deliver Australia's entire Paris emissions reduction targets five years early, in 2025, without the need for any creative accounting," lead researcher Professor Andrew Blakers said.

"We have excellent wind, excellent sun, a very vigorous rooftop solar industry and very experienced ground-mounted solar farm and wind farm industry."

Co-researcher Matthew Stocks said cheaper renewable energy was replacing expensive coal-fired power, meaning the cost of achieving the 2030 carbon emission targets in the Paris Agreement would be zero.

"Nearly all of the new power stations are either PV [photovoltaic solar] or wind. We anticipate that this will continue into the future," Dr Stocks said. ...
https://www.abc.net.au/news/2019-02-08/australia-ahead-of-paris-agreement-target-by-five-years/10789810
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Shared Humanity

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Re: Renewable Energy
« Reply #3362 on: February 09, 2019, 07:06:07 PM »
Haven't been visiting the Policy and Solutions threads much in the last several months. Thought I'd stop by to get a dose of "Happy Talk". Glad to see everyone is hard at work!  :)

Zythryn

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Re: Renewable Energy
« Reply #3363 on: February 10, 2019, 05:42:14 PM »
...


It is a skewing of the facts, to be true, because what we are seeing, today, is the start up and installation costs being borne by the consumers.  However there are very few people who will be super happy that their electricity costs will fall in 25-50 years so long as they pay double for the next 25 to 50 years.

...

Just to note, this pricing pattern isn't universal.
Three neighboring states in the USA, Wisconsin, Minnesota and Iowa have varying levels of renewables.
Wisconsin's retail electric prices are the highest, Minnesota's in the middle, and Iowa's the cheapest.
Iowa has the largest percentage of renewables, Minnesota is in the middle, and Wisconsin has the smallest level of renewables.

Electricity costs rely on many factors and I don't believe you can draw conclusions by just looking at the retail costs.

Ken Feldman

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Re: Renewable Energy
« Reply #3364 on: February 11, 2019, 09:01:43 PM »
Renewables are now 21% of USA's capacity, up from 16% five years ago:

https://solarindustrymag.com/ferc-data-renewables-now-21-of-u-s-energy-capacity/

Quote
FERC’s numbers also reveal that renewable sources now account for 21.0% of total available installed U.S. generating capacity. Five years ago, renewables were 16.0%. Their total installed generating capacity has increased by 35.6% over the past half-decade (from 185.16 GW to 250.99 GW). Utility-scale solar has now reached 3.0% of the nation’s generating capacity while hydropower and wind account for 8.4% and 7.9%, respectively.

Moreover, the same report indicates that proposed generation and retirements over the next three years include net capacity additions by renewable sources of 183,816 MW. That is 4.2 times greater than the net new additions listed for coal, oil and natural gas combined (43,312 MW).

Net proposed generation additions from wind alone total 97,455 MW, while those from solar are 70,902 MW – each greater than that listed for natural gas (59,900 MW). Within just the past month (since the release of FERC’s November 2018 “Energy Infrastructure Update” report), the amount of net new solar and wind proposed to be added by January 2022 has increased by 9.1%, from 154,344 MW to 168,357 MW.

Meanwhile, FERC lists only a single new 17 MW coal unit for the upcoming three-year period but 15,244 MW in retirements. Oil will also decline by 1,361 MW.

rboyd

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Re: Renewable Energy
« Reply #3365 on: February 11, 2019, 09:40:01 PM »
Renewables are now 21% of USA's capacity, up from 16% five years ago:

https://solarindustrymag.com/ferc-data-renewables-now-21-of-u-s-energy-capacity/

Capacity is not output, and wind and solar have significantly lower capacity utilization rates (15-30%) than natural gas (40%+) coal (70%), nuclear (90%) and even hydro-electric (40%). So counting installed capacity overstates the actual share in generation. This is a mistake that I have seen across many "green" sites.

Renewables currently account for about 18% of US electricity generation, with wind (6.4%) and solar (2.4%) being about 8.8%. Most of the rest of renewables is hydro, for which there is very limited possibilities for growth in the US.

US wind capacity has been increasing at about 8%-10% over the past four years (doubling rate of 8 years), well below the peak growth rate set in 2012. The peak growth for US solar was 2016, with a fall in 2017 and possible stabilization in 2018/2019 (affected by the tariff on imported panels). So we could possibly be at 30% renewable generation within about 10 years - assuming the current trend of no growth in overall US electricity generation.

https://cleantechnica.com/2018/11/30/renewables-account-for-18-of-us-electricity-generation/

https://www.awea.org/resources/publications-and-reports/market-reports/2018-u-s-wind-industry-market-reports

https://www.seia.org/research-resources/solar-market-insight-report-2018-q4

TerryM

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Re: Renewable Energy
« Reply #3366 on: February 11, 2019, 11:34:56 PM »
rboyd


The measured growth of renewables that you've noted will have a hard time keeping up with the additional load that EV's are expected to require. Rather than closing down a coal plant to replace it with solar and wind, all three will be needed just to service the additional demand.


I fear that even as we increase the percentage of renewable energy, we'll also increase our use of ff generated electricity.


Terry

James Lovejoy

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Re: Renewable Energy
« Reply #3367 on: February 12, 2019, 12:20:46 AM »
If you look at Ken Feldman's post, your fears are unlikely.

He quotes a report of proposed net renewable installation of 183,800 million watts in 3 years.  Round to approx 60,000 million watts per year or 60 gigawatts per year.

If you assume each eV travels 12,000 miles a year at 0.36 kWh per year that would be 4080 kWh per car per year.

If you also assume a 25% capacity factor for renewables, that would be 2190 kWh/year for each kW installed.

That would mean that each eV need 2 kW installed.  By those calculations, the 60,000 million watt addition of renewables would support 30 million additional new eVs each year.

At that rate of renewable installation, even when we get to the point where every gas vehicle junked is replaced by a new eV, we still have additional capacity to replace ff electicity generation.

Ken Feldman

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Re: Renewable Energy
« Reply #3368 on: February 12, 2019, 12:48:26 AM »
A huge number of utility scale solar projects are being planned in the US:

https://pv-magazine-usa.com/2019/01/01/solar-tsunami/

Quote
there is an unprecedented, massive volume of solar projects that is underway in the United States. Research conducted by pv magazine USA has uncovered more than 139 GWac of solar projects which have applied for interconnection with six grid operators (CAISO, NYISO, ISO-NE, MISO, PJM, ERCOT) by the end of December 2018, spanning the Northeast, Midwest, California and Texas.

And since that story was published, more projects have been planned:

https://pv-magazine-usa.com/2019/02/11/texas-solar-market-is-about-to-catch-fire/

Quote
At the beginning of this year, pv magazine USA reported on the flood of projects in the interconnection queues of regional grid operators, finding 139 GWac of projects in five grids. Since that time, we found another 26 GWac of projects in the Southwest Power Pool queue, bringing that total to 165 GWac.

But that was a snapshot, and since that time project development has proceeded – particularly in one of the most active regions, the Electric Reliability Council of Texas (ERCOT), which covers the large majority of Texas’ area and population.

In December, the volume of solar applications in ERCOT’s interconnection queue exceeded those of wind for the first time, at over 40 GWac. But it didn’t stop there, and the January report from ERCOT published earlier this month finds a stunning 43.5 GWac of solar projects, most of which are in West Texas with some in the Panhandle and South Texas, and even a few on the Gulf Coast.

Ken Feldman

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Re: Renewable Energy
« Reply #3369 on: February 12, 2019, 12:58:35 AM »
Florida utility companies are finally embracing solar:

https://www.csmonitor.com/Environment/2019/0211/Putting-the-sun-in-Sunshine-State-Florida-s-about-face-on-solar-power

Quote
“The utilities are putting out solar like you wouldn’t believe,” says James Fenton, director of the University of Central Florida’s Florida Solar Energy Center.

Florida power companies haven't always been so solar-friendly. In 2016 the industry spent $20 million on a ballot initiative that could have undercut the expansion of residential solar power. But as solar has become more economically viable, the state’s utility companies now see opportunity more than competition in the technology.

Florida utilities’ newfound embrace for solar power echoes trends seen across the country, as the renewable energy source has shifted from a fringe indulgence for wealthy environmentalists to becoming a conventional part of power production.

“Five years ago it was more of an emerging technology,” says Maggie Clark, senior manager of state affairs for the Southeast region at the Solar Energy Industries Association (SEIA). “As it’s become a mainstream energy resource,” she says, “there’s an element of comfort with it [for utilities,] as just any other generating asset.”

Quote
On Jan. 31 the state’s largest power company, Florida Power & Light, fired up more than a million solar panels totaling nearly 300 megawatts of capacity across four new solar fields, including the Miami-Dade County project. FPL brought eight such power plants online in 2018, bringing the company’s total solar power capacity to more than 1,200 megawatts. And in January, FPL pledged to install an additional 30 million panels by 2030, which could multiply the utility’s solar-generated electricity by almost 10-fold. The state’s next largest power provider, Duke Energy Florida, also has plans to have more than 700 megawatts worth of solar power by 2023.

Ken Feldman

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Re: Renewable Energy
« Reply #3370 on: February 12, 2019, 01:10:03 AM »
Here's another look at Australia's renewable energy production:

https://cleantechnica.com/2019/02/08/grid-scale-solar-power-tripled-in-australia-in-2018-as-renewables-met-20-of-energy-output/

Quote
Tristan Edis, GEM’s director of analysis and advisory, says, “For wind, the 26% jump in generation this year came after almost no growth in 2017. Rooftop solar has had more steady additions of generation but 2018 was exceptional, with the incremental new generation 86% greater than the average annual additions of 2015-2017. Yet it was large scale solar farms that really jumped out of the blocks in 2018, with generation leaping up by almost 300% on the prior year.”

Quote
PV Magazine Australia adds the GEM December report also says more than 3.2 GW of large scale solar projects were under construction at the end of December, bringing the total of close to 7.15 GW when wind is included. The solar boom is bringing good news for the employment sector as well. Nearly 7,700 people are involved in utility scale solar project construction at the present time in Australia.

Turning to rooftops, GEM found 22,010 PV systems were installed in December. New South Wales, and the Australian Capital Territory led all other regions with 5,700 systems combined followed by Victoria with 5,400; Queensland with 5,300, Western Australia 3,150, South Australia 1,900, the Northern Territory 269; and Tasmania (262).

Despite the intransigence of its national leaders, Australia is embracing renewables faster than most other countries and may be the first to get to 100% renewable energy. As prices for wind, solar, and storage continue to fall, the current shift to wind and solar power will continue to accelerate.

Sigmetnow

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Re: Renewable Energy
« Reply #3371 on: February 12, 2019, 09:44:43 PM »
Los Angeles, California

LA scraps plan to rebuild 3 gas plants, moves towards 100% renewable energy
Quote
Los Angeles Mayor Eric Garcetti on Monday said the city would abandon plans to rebuild three coastal gas-fired power plants, and instead will focus on energy storage and other clean energy technology as it pursues a 100% renewables goal.

• Garcetti said his office concluded the city's Department of Water and Power (LADWP) could maintain reliability if the 326 MW Scattergood gas plant is retired by 2024 and two other plants totaling 799 MW of capacity are mothballed five years later, according to The Los Angeles Times.

• The decision marks the end of a multi-year debate over the city's plan to invest $2.2 billion in gas-fired power plants, and follows a decision by state lawmakers last year to pursue a 100% clean energy target by 2045.

California has looked to energy storage and renewables as a replacement for some gas-fired power plants, and Garcetti's decision builds on that trend. ...
https://www.utilitydive.com/news/la-scraps-plan-to-rebuild-3-gas-plants-moves-towards-100-renewable-energy/548218/
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Sigmetnow

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Re: Renewable Energy
« Reply #3372 on: February 13, 2019, 08:09:58 PM »
U.S. Northwest:

Oregon to get groundbreaking large-scale wind/solar/storage facility
Quote
A new energy facility in eastern Oregon will be the first of its kind in the U.S., combining wind power, solar power, and battery storage on a large-scale.

Portland General Electric and NextEra Energy Resources announced plans for the Wheatridge Renewable Energy Facility today. The new facility will combine 300 megawatts of wind generation, 50 MW of solar generation, and 30 MW of battery storage.

NextEra plans to break ground this year. The wind component of the facility, powered by 120 turbines, is expected to be fully completed by December 2020. Construction of the solar and battery components is set for 2021.

The Morrow County-based facility will be capable of powering 100,000 homes, and will allow Portland General Electric to reach roughly 50 percent of all its customers’ power needs with emissions-free generation. ...
https://electrek.co/2019/02/13/oregon-to-get-groundbreaking-large-scale-wind-solar-storage-facility/
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Ken Feldman

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Re: Renewable Energy
« Reply #3373 on: February 13, 2019, 08:52:24 PM »
Africa and the Middle East are expected to more than double their wind energy by 2023:

https://cleantechnica.com/2019/02/12/africa-middle-east-installed-close-to-1-gigawatt-of-new-wind-in-2018/

Quote
While the Africa and Middle East region is a comparatively small market for wind energy when taken against the Americas, Asia, or Europe, it is nevertheless the focus of considerable attention of late, as highlighted by the latest figures published by the Global Wind Energy Council (GWEC) this week in advance of its anticipated Global Wind Report, the Council’s flagship publication which is due out in April. Specifically, a total of 962 MW was installed in 2018, up 55% on 2017 levels, and GWEC is expecting a further 6.5 GW of new capacity will be added by 2023 — more than double the current regional installed capacity of 5.7 GW.

Further good news for the region is the distribution of new capacity expanded in 2018. In 2017, only 621 MW of new capacity was brought online, and this only in South Africa, despite increased activity in Kenya and Morocco. The Global Wind Energy Council’s predictions that these projects were awaiting grid connection in 2018 came to fruition, as new capacity figures for the region show. Egypt brought online a total of 380 MW, followed by Kenya with 310 MW, and Morocco with 120 MW.

More specifically, Kenya’s 310 MW of new wind capacity was brought online in one hit with the completion in December of the Lake Turkana Wind Power project, while Morocco’s new capacity was similarly brought online at once in July with the completion of the 120 MW Khalladi wind farm in Tangiers, in the country’s northwest. Meanwhile, Egypt’s 380 MW was brought online across several projects under the Gabal Al-Zayt project banner.

Ken Feldman

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Re: Renewable Energy
« Reply #3374 on: February 13, 2019, 09:33:38 PM »
I posted this in the coal section and am reposting here with a key section bolded:

https://energy.economictimes.indiatimes.com/news/power/govt-may-cancel-50-gw-coal-based-power-projects-additional-46-gw-facing-risk-sp-global/67960857

Quote
New Delhi: The Indian government might cancel about 50 gigawatt (GW) of coal-based power projects in the near future, according to S&P Global Platts. An additional 46 GW coal-based capacity, currently under construction, is also at risk.

"Over the past couple of years, coal projects of over 37 GW have been deferred with another 13 GW delayed in India and most likely will be cancelled. About 46 GW of coal projects are currently under construction but their future is uncertain," said Bruno Brunetti, power analyst, S&P Global Platts, that provides energy price benchmark assesments.

He also said solar power in auctions conducted in 2018 were as low as Rs 2.4 per kilowatt hour (kWh), equivalent to around $33.6 per megawatt hour (MWh). "This has placed coal newbuilds in a considerably more difficult position, especially given that the bottlenecks in the rail and infrastructure have led to fuel availability issues," Brunetti said in an interview with ETEnergyworld.

As I've stated before, the fact that new solar and wind installations are less expensive than existing coal plants is a game-changer.  We're now seeing coal plants under construction being cancelled before they even begin operating.

Ken Feldman

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Re: Renewable Energy
« Reply #3375 on: February 13, 2019, 11:06:29 PM »
Capacity is not output, and wind and solar have significantly lower capacity utilization rates (15-30%) than natural gas (40%+) coal (70%), nuclear (90%) and even hydro-electric (40%). So counting installed capacity overstates the actual share in generation. This is a mistake that I have seen across many "green" sites.
Electricity Generation ( Not capacity )
Nuclear 2.9 GW
Non-Hyro renewable 5.9 GW = 16.5% of Total  - Or only 27.7% of Installed Wind Capacity
Coal 9.5 GW
Gas 18.7 GW = 50.5% of Total
Total 37.0 GW
https://www.eia.gov/state/?sid=TX
Therefore when the article says that "If even the 1,232 MWac of projects which have financing and notice to proceed come online, this will be the first year that Texas installs more than 1 GW of solar. "
Meaning the actual Electricity Generation might increase by some ~344 MW of electricity over a full year.
If this is the case then Lignite/Coal "could" go from generating 9.5 GW down to 9.15 GW each year. Certainly the right direction sought. But a "boom" for renewable energy it is not, imo.

When dissing renewables, opponents often raise the "capacity factor argument".  This article from 2015 explains why it's not as big a problem as the fossil fuel or nuclear advocates would have you believe:

https://www.treehugger.com/renewable-energy/death-capacity-factor-how-wind-solar-ultimately-win-game.html

Quote
Then we come to the real Achilles' heel of renewable energy: their relatively low capacity factor. What this means in practice is that if you build a solar system with a capacity of 100 megawatts, in practice it won't produce energy at that level all the time. So you might get 100 MW out of it when the sun is out, but at night or on cloudy days, you don't. If you average it all, you might only get a 20% capacity factor. But don't worry, when we look at the cost of 1kWh of wind or solar, we're talking about actually produced energy, so the capacity factor is embedded in that price.

The reason why this matters so much has to do with one of the big strengths of wind and solar: Once the wind turbines or the solar panels are installed and paid for, the power produced has basically a marginal cost very close to zero.

It's very hard for a grid operator or power company to say no to free power once it has access to it, so that clean energy takes precedence on more expensive power from coal and natural gas plants.

As Bloomberg explains: "It’s a self-reinforcing cycle. As more renewables are installed, coal and natural gas plants are used less. As coal and gas are used less, the cost of using them to generate electricity goes up. As the cost of coal and gas power rises, more renewables will be installed."

The table above shows how the capacity factors of coal and natural gas are starting to be affected, while wind and solar are starting to do better because bigger and taller wind turbines catch more wind and more solar is being installed in the U.S. Southwest where sunny days are more frequent.

It's kind of like a flywheel, and the more solar panels we install, the more wind turbines are built, the faster it spins. At some point, doesn't make any sense to run fossil fuels on sunny or windy days, and overall capacity factors go down enough that prices are simply not competitive with storage, and rather than build new natural gas plants, utilities will simply buy more renewables combined with storage.

And here are the actual capacity factors for non-fossil fuel electricity in the US compiled by the EIA:

https://forum.arctic-sea-ice.net/index.php?action=post;topic=256.3350;last_msg=188910

The averages for 2018 are still preliminary, but the data from 2013 through 2017 show that wind capacity factors have been increasing from 32% up to 34.6%.  Newer wind farms can achieve greater than 40% capacity due to improvements in turbine construction and siting considerations.

sidd

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Re: Renewable Energy
« Reply #3376 on: February 14, 2019, 06:52:15 AM »
The merit order effect and falling battery prices will kill off the gas peakers shortly after coal.

Nukes got a lil while to die, too much sunk cost.

sidd

etienne

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Re: Renewable Energy
« Reply #3377 on: February 14, 2019, 03:16:56 PM »
The merit order effect and falling battery prices will kill off the gas peakers shortly after coal.

Nukes got a lil while to die, too much sunk cost.

sidd
Renewable production is predictable and can't have a major problem because it is mainly distributed on large areas. Batteries are very good to balance it, but the issue will be base load. What to do if total renewable production doesn't match total consumption. This will make base load valuable. The issue will not be the GW that are required during a short time, but the MWh (or GWh, I don't know) that are missing from the renewable production. During the winter, CHP can be used (it also works with gasified wood), but what about the fall (summer will probably have enough sun to cover the need).

Since this would not be an "all year long" need, nuclear would not be a good solution, too expensive (and, personal point of view, too dangerous anyway). Maybe gas peakers will become gas base loaders.

Bruce Steele

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Re: Renewable Energy
« Reply #3378 on: February 14, 2019, 05:37:46 PM »
Lurk, Hang in there, I enjoy your posts. If I ever get to the complete system of renewable energy, renewable food production , transportation and home heating I would welcome a critical analysis of my efforts.
 I have focused on food first as I believe it is of critical import and largely neglected. Anyone attempting renewables to power their food production requirements will quickly realize they need to change their expectations . We are so dependent upon the food transportation network and enormous numbers of food miles currently built into our diets. Bananas, citrus, tropical fruit on menus thousands of miles separate from their points of production. Even greens and salads available in the Northern parts of the US where we recently saw -35 F.  Renewable and local will require a change in these expectations. Diets should be built around local availability IMO but you don't need to worry about this problem if you don't actually try producing your own renewable energy.
 Renewables are also locally constrained and some currently occupied regions may in fact not support any renewables options that can maintain anything similar to current lifestyle expectations or population densities. Wind works in some areas, solar or hydro in others. Wood as a heat source is in reality not an option in many areas lest we cut down every tree and bush in a vain attempt to heat our ( overly large )homes. 
 Transportation seems to be everyone primary interest because it is critical to maintaining the infrastructure that obviates my first two points. I may be contrary but I believe local should be our primary consideration because any honest assessment of the renewable energy required to maintain the transportation infrastructure will not work in decadal  timeframes . Yes very rich societies that have fossil fuel resources to build out electric trucking and large personal EV vehicles ( Teslas ) may seem at first sustainable but those options will fail as the fossil fuels to create them begin to fail. Self supporting renewable infrastructure requires serious efforts at walking back our expectations of luxury and anyone who try's to put a total support structure together will quickly realize this point. We need to figure out how to live on less energy inputs rather than create an imitation of how we currently live. Yes electric vehicles are part of a renewable future but those vehicles will be small, light and not expected to travel very far.
 Home heating / cooling is also feasible as we move forward but local resources should drive local architecture .
 Lastly we need to figure out how to sink some of the excess carbon we have already emitted which leads me back to food and farming. Farming with renewables and locally sourced energy and biomass needs seems to be a full circle solution but also a very labor intensive one. It requires major changes in current lifestyle expectations. It also can be adapted to further steps down the energy escalator we have become conditioned to expect, the elevators will not always go up. If or when solar, wind, and batteries go through their replacement cycles farming can still go on even if that means we transition back to beasts of burden.
If we put all of our efforts at high expectation transportation networks and fail to maintain our food and farming past/ future the bottleneck will narrow.
« Last Edit: February 14, 2019, 05:46:44 PM by Bruce Steele »

b_lumenkraft

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Re: Renewable Energy
« Reply #3379 on: February 14, 2019, 05:56:09 PM »
Lurk, Hang in there, I enjoy your posts

+1

zizek

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Re: Renewable Energy
« Reply #3380 on: February 15, 2019, 03:00:05 AM »
Don't you own multiple properties? And vehicles? But yeah, I'm sure your renewable heating goes so far.

Yes, they are my pension. But, please, do tell me more about my incredibly wealthy and extravagant lifestyle that is blocking the move to renewables....

True, 4bn people live in poverty. But it is not the 4bn we need to motivate, it is the 3.5bn who are creating all the emissions.  Most of them don't want change, they just want someone else to step in and "fix it". After all that is what they pay them to do.

Anyway, sorry for driving this off topic.  I think that the political dimension is part and parcel of renewables but it does detract from the whole view of current technologies and their uptake.

I'm so happy that you'll be able to retire comfortably Neil. Can you please do me a favor though, could you calculate how many Earths we would need if everybody sought a similar retirement plan?

As an aside, totally unrelated. I used to work in oil & gas, and I got a chance to meet a lot of very wealthy people that worked directly or indirectly for that industry. Contractors, bankers, consultants, executives, etc.  from construction, processing, etc.etc. And you know a common theme among them? None of them thought they were rich, and all of them thought their lifestyles were perfectly fine.  Even the ones who would make more than a million a year. Crazy right. 

Bruce Steele

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Re: Renewable Energy
« Reply #3381 on: February 15, 2019, 05:21:43 PM »
Lurk, I went back a dredged up an old thread I started back in 2014 dealing with EROI and farming.
The lesson I learned was that it isn't enough to just calculate fuel use but that the embedded costs of metals and batteries need to be considered. When Tesla automobile proponents quote Tesla figures on carbon reductions from driving a Tesla they don't include carbon costs for the manufacture of the component parts. Everything from soil carbon improvements to car manufacture needs to include all input costs. Most everything however ends up being an energy comparison between bad and worse. A Tesla compared to a old Impala or a dairy manure lagoon compared with composted urban waste spread on a field. Yes better but not Zero.
Zero is just some fantasy the IPCC put in their reports to drive us crazy I guess because nobody and I mean nobody has any idea how to get there. I think the carbon sequestration of prairie farmland that is mentioned in the video you linked is maybe as good as anything currently out there for sinking carbon but when the soil has been improved from a 2% carbon to 10-12 % the soil carbon won't continue to represent a place to sink our emissions.
 Now if you lived in a straw bale 600 sq. ft. house ,rode a bike , heated with wood you both grew , split and burned for heat as well as farmed renewably you could get your numbers seriously down to where
you might be able to sink most or all of your carbon emissions back into the soil . I don't live that way so excuse me if I sound self righteous . It is a serious flaw to get righteous when I too live in a glass house but rationalizing some electrified convertion of current lifestyles isn't going to get us moving back to simpler lifestyles anywhere near fast enough.

https://forum.arctic-sea-ice.net/index.php/topic,786.0.html

If a group of people were willing to live simple lives I am quite confident I could feed them without fossil fuels with an old tractor and some pigs. When is it these sorts of communities will develop ?
If we got paid for sinking carbon we might even be able to pay for the property taxes and keep a community solar system running.

Bruce Steele

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Re: Renewable Energy
« Reply #3382 on: February 15, 2019, 10:25:15 PM »
Here is link to a Brussels Blog post ( Geoff ) on embodied carbon for solar electric lifestyles and efficient housing. It doesn't cover energy costs for food production or transport , airplane travel,
consumer demands , entertainment or communications.

http://www.brusselsblog.co.uk/the-carbon-cost-of-achieving-low-carbon-lifestyles/

Maybe Geoff could help with updates and some of the missing pieces. I will stand my ground that we need to radically change lifestyle expectations and the addition of billions of Chinese and Indians wanting to join the consumer parade
/ paradise paradigm makes the numbers even more daunting. We are seeing thousands of Chinese on vacation here in the Santa Ynez Valley , Southern Calif. I know those numbers aren't in low carbon lifestyle calculations and plenty of new ICE cars and trucks make things even worse.

 

Ken Feldman

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Re: Renewable Energy
« Reply #3383 on: February 15, 2019, 10:27:07 PM »
Even the state of Georgia (home to the only active US nuclear power plant construction project) is going solar:

https://www.ajc.com/news/local/never-say-never-atlanta-draws-fresh-jolt-energy-from-sunshine/0J5cXw824C1xCqhPinvAFK/

Quote
A decade ago, coal was king in Georgia. Solar energy was written off as virtually meaningless in the eyes of Georgia Power, the state’s dominant electric company, and many other utilities. But a power shift is undeniably underway, and with it comes upsides for metro Atlanta consumers: A cheap source of energy and none of the carbon footprint that has been blamed for worsening climate change.
 
 
Georgia Power’s newly updated 20-year energy plan calls for closing five coal-burning units. Additionally, two of the four at its largest coal facility, Plant Bowen in Cartersville, could be shuttered in the next few years.

...

Advocates predict that declining prices for solar equipment will add pressure on Georgia Power to rely on solar energy even more than what the company proposes. And they have a potential ally in state utility regulators, all Republicans, who began pushing Georgia Power toward sunlight several years ago.
 
Why? Solar panel efficiency soared and prices plummeted even faster than many expected. Low interest rates enticed project backers. Rural land was cheap and often flat. Sunshine was plentiful. Other locales had found solar could work.

Ken Feldman

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Re: Renewable Energy
« Reply #3384 on: February 15, 2019, 11:01:08 PM »
Here is link to a Brussels Blog post ( Geoff ) on embodied carbon for solar electric lifestyles and efficient housing. It doesn't cover energy costs for food production or transport , airplane travel,
consumer demands , entertainment or communications.

http://www.brusselsblog.co.uk/the-carbon-cost-of-achieving-low-carbon-lifestyles/

Maybe Geoff could help with updates and some of the missing pieces. I will stand my ground that we need to radically change lifestyle expectations and the addition of billions of Chinese and Indians wanting to join the consumer parade
/ paradise paradigm makes the numbers even more daunting. We are seeing thousands of Chinese on vacation here in the Santa Ynez Valley , Southern Calif. I know those numbers aren't in low carbon lifestyle calculations and plenty of new ICE cars and trucks make things even worse.

Bruce,

The blog post you linked to and your previous posts about EVs needing to be light, food production being dependent on fossil fuels, etc... seems to be based on information from a decade ago.

Current advances in battery technology are making battery electric tractors, pickup trucks and semi-trucks feasible.

https://www.agriculture.com/machinery/is-the-future-of-agriculture-battery-powered

Quote
Last January, the Workhorse Group revealed a hybrid electric pickup truck that accelerates to 60 mph in 5.5 seconds due to its 480-hp. hybrid engine. The four-wheel-drive Workhorse W-15 lives up to its company’s name, since it’s capable of hauling a 2,200-pound payload and generating a towing capacity of 5,000 pounds. The W-15 is “designed to do anything a Ford F-150 can do,” claims company CEO Steve Burns.

Workhorse is building 5,300 of the trucks this year for fleet sales. Consumer orders will start early in 2019 for a truck that starts at $52,000 (supported by a $7,500 tax credit).

Electric car pioneer Elon Musk reports his firm is on the verge of introducing a Tesla pickup that will have dual-motor all-wheel drive “with crazy torque and a suspension that dynamically adjusts for the load,” boasts electric car pioneer Musk.

An all-electric semitruck isn’t far from the market, either. Thor Trucks has developed an electric semi that can haul 80,000 pounds of cargo and travel up to 300 miles on a single charge (shown above). Power train options for the truck range from 300 to 700 hp. with full torque starting at 0 rpm. The company claims the Thor runs 70% cheaper than diesel semis. A limited fleet of demonstration trucks are now available from the company.

Quote
The dream of battery-powered tractors became reality this summer when a limited number of Fendt model e100 Varios went to work on farms and municipalities in Europe. Capable of operating for up to five hours on a charge, the 67-hp. Vario draws off of a 650-volt lithium-ion battery. Plus, the battery can be recharged up to 80% in just 40 minutes.

And  the electricity to manufacture the products and charge the batteries is increasingly coming from carbon-free sources.


Ken Feldman

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Re: Renewable Energy
« Reply #3385 on: February 15, 2019, 11:08:53 PM »
Here's an interesting article on why agriculture is quickly moving toward electric vehicles:

https://innovationanarchy.com/electric-tractors-lead-cars-race-to-self-drive/#.XGc3DYeovL8

Quote
Despite all the media attention and focus on Elon Musk, electric cars, and self-driving Ubers, the main industry steering towards autonomous and electric vehicles is agriculture. Over recent years, electric farming has opened up a wealth of interest from around the world as businesses and individuals look towards new alternatives to reduce CO2 levels and improve production efficiency. Now, with prototypes in motion and huge industry players sitting in the driver’s seat, electric tractors are soon to be available for farms across the globe.

Advancements are moving surprisingly quickly. The market size for new tractor sales each year is about $71 billion, with automation farm equipment set to reach a market of over $180 billion by 2024. This transformation in agriculture is attracting a gold rush of interest, and it won’t be long before electric, autonomous farming equipment out-numbers electric vehicles. Here’s why:

Timely arrival

In many parts of the world, autonomous farming technology is desperately needed. High labor costs, and a declining workforce is driving the industry demand. Countries such as Denmark and Japan are on the edge of losing farms due to these factors and are therefore left with no other alternatives. Moreover, Japan’s producer population is rapidly aging, with those aged 60+ soon to comprise over 70% of all producers in their agricultural sector. Many of these countries view electric tractors as a cheaper solution. Unlike fuel or diesel which come with the baggage of needing regular engine oil, oil filters etc., electric equipment requires less operation, less maintenance and zero fuel cost.

Quote
As the technology for self-driving tractors looks to no longer be science fiction, more and more industry players are getting involved to help fuel its development in agriculture. Food companies in particular are helping bring driverless and battery powered agricultural equipment into the spotlight. Anheuser-Busch (owner of Budweiser) and Pepsi have both recently placed an order for Tesla’s new electric trucks, known as the Semis. Not only has this sent a clear message towards agricultural players to also invest in electric and autonomous driving technology in this field, but it also proves that zero emission electric vehicle implementation in this industry is possible. Starting with the supply chain side of business is the first stepping stone towards reducing the carbon footprint in all areas of agricultural production.

Ken Feldman

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Re: Renewable Energy
« Reply #3386 on: February 15, 2019, 11:13:31 PM »
Electrification of the trucking industry is happening faster than expected:

https://www.teslarati.com/tesla-semi-rival-daimler-electric-trucks-best-battery-solution/

Quote
Amidst the emergence of all-electric long-haulers like the Tesla Semi, an established brand is adopting an optimistic stance about the trucking industry’s upcoming electrification. During a recent media roundtable at the American Trucking Associations’ annual Management Conference & Exhibition, CEO of Daimler Trucks North America Roger Nielsen stated that the industry’s transition towards electrification is happening at a “greater speed than expected.”

Daimler is no stranger to the idea of using electric trucks as a viable alternative to diesel-powered vehicles. Last June, Daimler took the wraps off the all-electric Freightliner eCascadia heavy-duty, which has a range of 250 miles per charge and the capability to be charged to 80% in 90 minutes. The company also unveiled the mid-duty Freightliner eM2, which offers a 230-mile range and the ability to recharge 80% of its battery in 60 minutes.


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Re: Renewable Energy
« Reply #3387 on: February 15, 2019, 11:53:16 PM »
Here's an interesting article on why agriculture is quickly moving toward electric vehicles:

https://innovationanarchy.com/electric-tractors-lead-cars-race-to-self-drive/#.XGc3DYeovL8


Looks ridiculous to me. Worse than the electric SUV. Classic Precollapse Homo Sapiens techno-logical degeneration. But I don't have the numbers yet...

Current farm machinery is already too heavy for the soil. Electrified these suigenocidal monsters likely will get substantially heavier. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Soil_compaction_(agriculture)

Last century I got a ride in a semi autonomous farm vehicle in the poor hinterland of Romania: A horse carriage. The horse found her way home, autonomously negotiating oncoming traffic without slowing down, on a gravel road, while the farmer shared a bottle of plum schnapps.

Here's my missing number: What is the energy density (weight/power ratio) of an oxen compared to  modern machinery?

I can imagine 2 oxen in a wooden treadmill easily powering a 1960ies harvester-thresher. (A friend of mine still uses one.) Looks more like serious technology to me.
« Last Edit: February 20, 2019, 10:25:27 PM by Martin Gisser »

Bruce Steele

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Re: Renewable Energy
« Reply #3388 on: February 16, 2019, 12:49:07 AM »
Martin, Maybe this version won't address your weight concerns either . That copper extension cord must weigh a bit and cost a pretty penny. It is probably more practical if you want to get rid of the last few farmers and a couple tons of lithium ion batteries proves untenable ? Practical might be a ripe choice of words however.

https://blog.carbontv.com/2018/12/19/video-john-deere-unveils-autonomous-electric-tractor-with-a-really-long-extension-cord/

etienne

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Re: Renewable Energy
« Reply #3389 on: February 19, 2019, 07:55:20 PM »

Here's my missing number: What is the energy density (weight/power ratio) of an oxen compared to  modern machinery?


Well, according to the "Power to the People" book, a horse has 1 horse power, an Ox only 0.75, a mule 0.7, a cow 0.4 and a donkey 0.4.

Don't know how heavy is the ox.

Animals would have 15% efficiency, transforming fodder into work (heat is not considered).

etienne

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Re: Renewable Energy
« Reply #3390 on: February 20, 2019, 09:04:51 PM »
For the DEUTZ-FAHR 11.440 TTV buit in 2015, I find 401 hp, 13.5 t (13500 kg), so this is about 34 kg per horsepower, much less than a horse.


Martin Gisser

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Re: Renewable Energy
« Reply #3391 on: February 20, 2019, 10:46:35 PM »
Thanks, etienne!

Now I wonder why so often the ox is preferred over the horse. What I found on the internets is a bit contradictory. The horse can exert more power in short time (in fact you can work them to death quickly - I've once seen one sweating like hell and almost collapsing after half an hour of timber pulling.). The ox is slower and can work longer (contradicted by https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Horse_collar ). I guess the major point today is the price. A horse collar nowadays is way more expensive than the simple ox yoke.

Time to visit my farm friend (who got an ox and bulls and horses, but doesn't use them for serious work) and my Arabian Horse wisperer friend...

Here's a nice article:
https://www.nytimes.com/2011/05/04/dining/04oxen.html

And an excerpt of the "cult classic" mentioned there:


sidd

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Re: Renewable Energy
« Reply #3392 on: February 21, 2019, 05:56:50 AM »
Re: Ploughing with animals

Amish in midwest like horses, i see two and four horse teams a lot, depends on soil, time of year, crop ...

One crazy thing i seen is a four horse team pulling a platform carrying an internal combustion engine (didnt sound like diesel, was probly gasoline)  that powered an ancient version of a combine. That bishop walks a fine line.

On the other hand, i seen an amish family with a tiny repurposed john deere engine running an ice cream churn at an auction, and i am told that the ice cream was good too. I suppose a lot of the bishops and the elders walk a fine line.

Asia seems to favour oxen but might b more a rice thing.


sidd
 

sidd

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Re: Renewable Energy
« Reply #3393 on: February 21, 2019, 06:12:37 AM »
While i'm talking about the Amish, I should mention my welder who makes most of my steel tankage.

The guy is off grid. Rides a horse and buggy to and from his shop. Got a old big block chevy engine making his electric, burning gasoline, spinning a giant generator that looks like its from fifty years ago. He really,really,really wants to convert the engine to biodiesel, but he hasn't found the right used cummins or detroit at the right price.

No electric in the house. His wife is a charming woman, and his children are lovely and perfectly behaved.

He grows tobacco on his land among other things, for the English, as outsiders like me are called. He hung some up for me, not bad.

sidd

Sigmetnow

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Re: Renewable Energy
« Reply #3394 on: February 23, 2019, 07:56:44 PM »
Bipartisan Solar Bill of Rights publicly introduced in California
Quote
California state senators formally introduced a Solar Bill of Rights on Tuesday. The bill aims to defend the rights of home and business owners who wish to generate and store their own electricity.

Sen. Scott Wiener (D) and Sen. Jim Nielsen (R) were joined by solar advocates, homeowners, and business owners to officially announce SB-288. The bill was first introduced in the California State Legislature on Feb. 13.

The bill calls for a streamlined, standardized process for customers looking to install solar panels and connect to the grid. It would require the Public Utilities Commission and Energy Commission to establish this process for electric corporations and local publicly owned electric utilities. The PUC and Energy Commission would also submit an annual report that shows utility performance in reviewing interconnection requests. ...
https://electrek.co/2019/02/20/solar-bill-of-rights/

No question, the the hardest part of installing solar is the permitting process!
People who say it cannot be done should not interrupt those who are doing it.

Sebastian Jones

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Re: Renewable Energy
« Reply #3395 on: February 24, 2019, 04:48:45 AM »


Now I wonder why so often the ox is preferred over the horse. What I found on the internets is a bit contradictory. The horse can exert more power in short time (in fact you can work them to death quickly - I've once seen one sweating like hell and almost collapsing after half an hour of timber pulling.). The ox is slower and can work longer (contradicted by https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Horse_collar ). I guess the major point today is the price. A horse collar nowadays is way more expensive than the simple ox yoke.


Back in the 1980s I found myself unemployed and at a loose end in the Yukon one fall. So I went to Edmonton where I heard there was plenty of work. I wound up getting an interview at a show jumping and dressage stable because I had a fair bit of experience working with horses (and dogs). The interview however took place in a dark stall where I was informed I had to be acceptable to the biggest animal I've ever seen that was not an elephant.
"Mosquito" was a Holstein ox that was taller than my 6 feet at the withers, and beef to the knees as they say and must have topped a ton easy.
In the dark, Mosquito rose and rose and rose to his feet in the way that anyone who has watched a cow stand up will recognize.
He snuffled me with his wet nose and I scratched him in the 18 inches of space between his eyes and thereby got the job.
I worked with him for six months, mostly mucking out horse stalls.
The advantages of an ox over a horse (which is really the point of this post) are that they have a really low gear- so they can shift a stupendous load at a really slow speed, and their patience- they are really happy to stand and chew the cud for ten or fifteen minutes while one shovels shit into the pick-up sized sledge he pulled.
The main reason Mosquito had a job was his emissions were non-toxic to the very expensive horseflesh whose shit we were hauling.
One day we got to haul a Mac truck out of the ditch in our lane way- very satisfying!

etienne

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Re: Renewable Energy
« Reply #3396 on: February 24, 2019, 12:04:46 PM »
Power values for the animals are averages. From what I heard, modern horses wouldn't be as strong as they used to be. Selection has not been done on strenght anymore.

etienne

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Re: Renewable Energy
« Reply #3397 on: February 24, 2019, 02:03:25 PM »
We have in Luxembourg a "living museum" where they work with horses and try to find people willing to hire them for example to work in the forests

https://www.destination-clervaux.lu/robbesscheier-offer/ardennes-horses/

and they say that modern horses are raised for meat, so when they try do buy horses, they get mainly information about the meat potential, not about how good they work.

At least in Belgium, France, Luxembourg and Switzerland, people eat horse meat. In University, it was more or less the only red meat that we could get with our student's tickets. Beef came with an extra cost.

In France, some cities try to use horses for different tasks like collecting garbadge....
https://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cheval_territorial
« Last Edit: February 24, 2019, 02:09:24 PM by etienne »

SteveMDFP

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Re: Renewable Energy
« Reply #3398 on: February 24, 2019, 09:06:30 PM »
Here's an interesting article on why agriculture is quickly moving toward electric vehicles:

https://innovationanarchy.com/electric-tractors-lead-cars-race-to-self-drive/#.XGc3DYeovL8


Looks ridiculous to me. Worse than the electric SUV. Classic Precollapse Homo Sapiens techno-logical degeneration. But I don't have the numbers yet...

Current farm machinery is already too heavy for the soil. Electrified these suigenocidal monsters likely will get substantially heavier. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Soil_compaction_(agriculture)
. . .

This post got me to thinking.  It may be possible to electrify farming without such heavy vehicles.  Many farms  have "center pivot" irrigation systems.  Central hub with a long "spoke" to spray water.  Possibly the concept could be adapted to power autonomous machinery.  Imagine an electrical motor and control unit, able to travel along the "spoke" on a rail.  Interchangeable units could be mounted for the tasks of seeding, fertilizing, maybe spot weedkiller application, even harvesting.  Harvesting would likely need a conveyor belt the length of the spoke.  Such a system would only need to deliver electricity to the hub (and then to the spoke).

I'd think plowing would be problematic here, with the large forces involved.  But no-till farming should become the norm, I'd think.

The necessary resources to even build a prototype farm would be substantial. 


Sigmetnow

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Re: Renewable Energy
« Reply #3399 on: February 25, 2019, 06:18:20 PM »
EGEB: Kansas wind kerfuffle, Arizona solar storage, Portugal preps for solar auction
Quote
The bill from Rep. Randy Garber (R) would require any new turbines to be placed at least 1.5 miles from a residence and 3 miles from an airport, park or hunting area. Rob Stupar, an executive of Enel Green Power, said none of his company’s facilities would exist in Kansas if the bill were in place.
https://electrek.co/2019/02/25/egeb-kansas-wind-kerfuffle-arizona-solar-storage-portugal-preps-for-solar-auction/

Included: Tallahassee, Florida sets 100% renewable energy by 2050 target, with intermediate goals.
People who say it cannot be done should not interrupt those who are doing it.