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ASILurker

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The Empire vs Venezuela - News and History
« on: February 18, 2019, 02:06:53 PM »
editing out my own 'wasted time'


Frankly I do not care what happens in or to Venezuela btw. It's none of my business let alone my responsibility to fix.

The key issue for me is not Venezuela itself but that this issue again presents another opportunity for millions of people in and out of the USA to finally face up to and shake off their Conditioning.

It's an opportunity for people to re-evaluate, to drop their many Cultural Myths and personal Beliefs that are no longer sustainable in present time.

That those myths and beliefs they have lived their entire lives accepting as Tuisms are now far less sustainable than even BAU on this planet is Sustainable.

Events like Venezuela then is another opportunity  for people to confront themselves and change how they think about everything now. The more who do this the better for everyone. The sooner genuine systemic changes can begin to be put in place to solve the looming global catastrophe that is AGW/CC. 
« Last Edit: May 21, 2019, 05:38:09 AM by Lurk »

ASILurker

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Re: The Empire vs Venezuela - News and History
« Reply #1 on: February 18, 2019, 05:31:02 PM »
Election Monitoring - hard to find - lots of verbiage not many hard nosed analysis can I put my fingers on.

In another thread with the rave by George Galloway he mentioned the Carter Center saying "pristine elections, the best in the world." Now that truly belongs in the over-top-spin Spin category. Yes Carter did say that however it was about the last Election of Chavez in 2012. Just because elections a decade ago wee considered great by the Carter Center does not mean they still are ever since. Galloway doesn't help his cause one bit there.

On the other hand he isn't the only person or media outlet beating the Spin drums over Venezuela elections as this report suggests back in 2012.
https://nacla.org/blog/2012/10/8/hall-shame-venezuelan-elections-coverage
and this from 2016
https://venezuelanalysis.com/analysis/12104

Saw one detailed news report (now can't put my finger on it) that spoke about the United Nations refusal to send Election Observers that the NEC (Venezuela's electoral body) had requested attend. The UN refused and reused to make public the reasons for their refusal, which is most unusual.  They sent a letter in May 2018 to the Govt giving reasons but I can find a copy of that as yet.
 
Quote
International Electoral Accompaniment Missions Declare May 20 Elections Free and Fair
Read the four reports from the electoral accompaniment mission in full here.
General Report
This is the  report written by the mission as a whole, which includes representatives from countries such as Russia, Palestine, China, Spain, UK, Ireland, USA, Australia, Syria, Switzerland, Germany, Italy, the Philippines, Indonesia, France, Brazil, Argentina, Ecuador, Bolivia, Uruguay, Chile, Surinam, Paraguay, Colombia, and Peru.
    "We the international accompaniers consider that the technical and professional trustworthiness and independence of the National Electoral Council of Venezuela are uncontestable."

https://venezuelanalysis.com/news/13817

Not read all that, not sure what to make of it.

Quote
Elections in Venezuela: Democratic, Fair and Transparent
Nicolas Maduro was re-elected president for the 2019-2025 period by more than two thirds of the voters. The Lima Group, Luis Almagro and the Canadian government immediately issued declarations of not recognizing the elections for being illegitimate, as if they had been prepared before May 20. However, is there any valid basis to those declarations?

https://venezuelanalysis.com/analysis/13837

Quote
International Observers to Venezuela’s Election Pen Letter to the EU
International observers to Venezuela’s elections have written to Federica Mogherini, High Representative of the EU for Foreign Affairs and Security Policy, about the problems with the EU declaration on the elections.

We were unanimous in concluding that the elections were conducted fairly, that the election conditions were not biased, that genuine irregularities were exceptionally few and of a very minor nature. There was no vote buying because there is no way that a vote CAN be bought. The procedure itself precludes any possibility of anyone knowing how a voter cast her or his vote; and it is impossible – as we verified – for an individual to vote more than once or for anyone to vote on behalf of someone else.

In short, the claims in your press release are fabrications of the most disgraceful kind, based on hearsay and not on evidence and unworthy of the EU. It has not escaped notice that the EU was invited to send observers to the election and declined to do so. NONE of the criticism in your EU press release is, therefore, based on direct EU observation in the field.

https://venezuelanalysis.com/analysis/13899

Quote
Observing Venezuela’s Election and the Myths Around It
An official observer to Venezuela’s presidential election, Fox addresses some of the media-generated myths that are rooted in opposition to a chavismo project which improved the lives of millions.
 
Internationally, Chávez aimed to reduce, if not eliminate, what he felt to be the economic and the political domination of his country by the United States. He collaborated with other like-minded governments in Latin America to achieve the same at continental level. He called his political programme the ‘Bolivarian Revolution’ and even changed the country’s formal name to the ‘Bolivarian Republic of Venezuela’ in honour of Simón Bolívar, the great 19th century leader of South America’s independence from Spain. Romantic certainly, but a permanent reminder that independence – the right of a nation to choose its own destiny lay, and continues to lie – at the heart of the chavista project.

For some within the country, the Bolivarian Revolution has always been an anathema. An attempt to unseat Chávez by force in 2002 nearly succeeded. It was foiled by the army, which has remained a stout defender of the country’s democracy. Nicolás Maduro, Chávez’s successor, has met with a different kind of resistance: street violence and calls from opponents for the United States to help topple Maduro and his ‘regime’.

Maduro is a substantial figure, with an impressive command of the stage, but he came to power during an economic downturn brought on by a dramatic fall in the price of oil. He won the 2013 election – with a very narrow majority – to cries of fraud from the supporters of his rightwing opponent, Henrique Capriles. Without the oil revenues that had financed Chávez’s social policies, Venezuela’s ill-balanced economy, with its heavy dependence on oil, became evident. Imports of food, medicines and consumer goods fell away, creating shortages that severely affected the less well-off.

https://venezuelanalysis.com/analysis/13866

Apparently varying opinions abound.

It's critical to know the lead up to these elections were extremely complicated due to the Opposition Parties winning control of the "assembly" (eg like the Congress) in the elections before. They outright refused to cooperate in any way with the Govt and in fact refused to "work". In 3 years (?) they have not passed a single Law.

So imagine what would a US President do if the Congress refused to do anything? If they never even bothered to turn up to work? Pretty strange way to operate. Their Supreme Court tried to fix that and condemned those involved but little could be done (it's complex, but this is has underpinned the problems in the 2018 election from the get go. Also hard because I don't speak Spanish where most fo teh news about this would be found in detail.) 

Maduro was "forced" to set up an alternative body, originally to handle developing a new/revised Constitution at some point... its job was expanded which included establishing the setup for the next election in 2018. All the way through the Opposition refused to cooperate at all.

Furthermore historically it's interesting. The last time the Carter Center was an election observer was in 2015.    see https://www.cartercenter.org/news/publications/election_reports.html#venezuela

Quote
As scheduled, on Sunday June 28 the United Socialist Party of Venezuela (PSUV) held its primary elections. The event was prolonged until 10 pm following PSUV pleas to the CNE claiming large voter turnouts at some polling centers. At the close of election day activities, PSUV vice-president DiosdadoCabello expressed his satisfaction at what he termed the population’s“historic”participation with a total of 3,162,400 voters.

Even though the PSUVheld its primary elections in all 87 of the country’s districts, only 98 of the 113 candidates to be elected by nominal vote were chosen in the primary process and the party-list proportional deputies were notvoted on. Altogether, 59 percent of all nominees were elected in the primaries. The remaining 69 PSUV candidates will be decided on by political party cadres through negotiation or by consensus with all ten member parties comprising the “SimónBolívar” Great Patriotic Pole (GPPSB).

https://www.cartercenter.org/resources/pdfs/peace/americas/informe-de-seguimiento-may-june-2015-en.pdf

Quote
Then, in the context of the case against the Venezuelan media outlets known as ElNacional, TalCual, and LaPatilla for “continuous aggravated defamation,” the court prohibited 22 executives of these media outlets from leaving the country. The lawsuit, filed by National Assembly President Diosdado Cabello, seeks to punish these outlets for replicating information published in the Spanish newspaper ABC last February linking him to drug trafficking.
[ Fake News or not Fake News? ]

and the main Opposition Parties primary voting results

Also, as scheduled, during the period covered by this report the Democratic Unity Table (Mesadela Unidad Democrática‐MUD) held the primaries it had announced to select 25 percent of the candidates to represent the various parties in the opposition coalition in the 2015 parliamentary elections. The MUD’s primary elections were held with technical support from the National Electoral Council in 33 of the country’s 87 districts, culminating in the selection of 37 candidates.

Unity Table officers announced that the total number of voters was 570,892, accounting for 7.64 percent of the registered voters in the districts where the elections were held. The PrimeroJusticia (PJ) and VoluntadPopular (VP) parties managed to rank first and second, respectively, in the number of votes cast and the number of candidates elected. MUD leaders considered the elections “successful” describing the level of participation as “higher than expected.”

https://www.cartercenter.org/resources/pdfs/news/peace_publications/americas/informe-de-seguimiento-april-may-2015-en.pdf

So Maduro's Party in 2015 has a 3,162,400 primary voter turnout, while the Opposition Parties gets  570,892 ? That surely says something.

Much details on Wikipedia https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2018_Venezuelan_presidential_election

One thing I found intriguing is the huge variations in the pre-election Polling numbers. Something is not right there including the fact they only use 1000 respondents in these polls, versus the typical 2000+ required for such a national poll.

Quote
In a January 2018 poll surrounding the presidential election, Meganalisis stated that only 29% of respondents desired to vote in the elections and 72.5% stated that they did not trust the CNE electoral body. Those who chose not to vote had various reasons; 45% believed that even if they voted, hunger would continue, 20% believed it was a "waste of time", and 13% believed that the opposition had betrayed the country. As for the support of political parties, 81% stated that they were not part of any party, 12% were part of the government PSUV party, and 6% supported the opposition-led MUD.
How trustworthy these polling firms are I have no idea. But it;s true that the Opposition supporting people operate all the TV stations and media there ... except for Telesur which is govt funded.

I will have a break now. :)

ASILurker

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ASILurker

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Re: The Empire vs Venezuela - News and History
« Reply #3 on: February 19, 2019, 08:31:04 AM »
 ‘They want to enslave us!’ Maduro slams Trump’s ultimatum & ‘Nazi-style’ attack on socialism
Published time: 19 Feb, 2019

 Nicolas Maduro has slammed Donald Trump’s belligerent rhetoric and his crusade against socialism after US president effectively ordered Venezuelan military to support opposition leader Juan Guaido, if they care about their future.

“Who is the commander of the armed forces, Donald Trump from Miami?” president Maduro wondered aloud after the US leader virtually issued an ultimatum to the Venezuelan armed forces, warning officers they won’t have any possible “way out” unless they accept Guaido’s “generous offer” to defect without retribution while they still can.

“They think they own the country!” Maduro said on state television, noting that Trump's “arrogant orders” are an “offense to [the] dignity” of the Venezuelan military, who stand ready to defend the country's sovereignty.

The 56-year-old Venezuelan leader also slammed Trump’s attack on socialism in his country and elsewhere, pointing out that the White House’s “Nazi-style discourse” seeks to limit political diversity and impose a “colonial model” of US “supremacy” across Latin America. “They want to enslave us,” Maduro said.

    #Maduro: ‘US humanitarian aid is crumbs, a show by the US govt to humiliate #Venezuela’ pic.twitter.com/T4L3RkSiIo
    — RT (@RT_com) February 17, 2019

Trump’s speech in Miami, which spelled out a US crusade against socialism in Latin America, was also challenged by Cuban Foreign Minister Bruno Rodriguez.

“Humanitarian aid is a pretext for a war of oil plunder,” Rodriguez said on Twitter, accusing Trump of trying to impose a “puppet” president in Venezuela. The “offensive” rhetoric only “confirms the threat of military aggression against Venezuela,” the diplomat added.

https://www.rt.com/news/451788-maduro-trump-nazi-style-speech/

http://versionfinal.com.ve/politica-dinero/maduro-fanb-respondera-con-moral-y-unidad-a-llamados-insolentes-de-donald-trump/

ASILurker

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Re: The Empire vs Venezuela - News and History
« Reply #4 on: February 19, 2019, 09:59:28 AM »

Maduro is wasting his time and his breath

Maduro to Americans:
  You are bigger than Trump, don’t let him start ‘Vietnam’ war against Venezuela



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Re: The Empire vs Venezuela - News and History
« Reply #5 on: February 19, 2019, 10:53:21 AM »
Anti Maduro protestors are all wearing designer clothes.
There is a principle which is a bar against all information, which cannot fail to keep a man in everlasting ignorance. That principle is contempt prior to investigation. - Herbert Spencer

Sterks

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Re: The Empire vs Venezuela - News and History
« Reply #6 on: February 19, 2019, 03:54:29 PM »
This thread is a shame that I wish I hadn't had the displeasure to find.
Don't confuse Venezuela with its current Tirano.
People are dying under Maduro's oppression. Migrating to countries like Spain as refugees because they simply don't have Bread to Eat.
I don't understand why this manipulated content is allowed in this forum.
But now that it is allowed: todo el cariño y el ánimo al pueblo venezolano desde Europa! Abajo la tiranía!

b_lumenkraft

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Re: The Empire vs Venezuela - News and History
« Reply #7 on: February 19, 2019, 04:55:49 PM »
Hey Sterks,

may i ask you, are you from Venezuela?

ASILurker

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Re: The Empire vs Venezuela - News and History
« Reply #8 on: February 19, 2019, 07:36:26 PM »
"manipulated content" ? (sigh) but to be expected. Issues such as this subject become issues because they're contested. Just like the 2016 elections (and many other things) were contested became an issue and still are.

To lumenkraft and HHI I'm thinking along these lines atm. Venezuela is going to be a confronting issue for anti-Trumpers, Russiagaters and strong pro-Hillary/pro-Pelosi Democrats - not merely the media but everyday people. I think it is going to push a lot of buttons and generate much "cognitive dissonance" because what will be coming up whether consciously or unconsciously.

I suspect most will quite easily (and quickly be forced) to make major rationalizations to the keep their mental ship afloat.

On the other hand it will be interesting to attach where Bernie Sanders goes with this, and AOC, and Tulsi Gabbard in the democrat circles. I think I have a good idea where Jill Stein will go, the overall the anti-war, anti-regime change public figures are going to take enormous heat from this, and they will be ostracized, and they be pilloried, and they wil be silenced by the media but will they personal "fold" or stick to principle and reason?

I have no doubt the US as a whole (polling etc) will back this new War to the hilt. Not only the war against Venezuela but this entire anti-socialism / communism rhetoric across the board .. the media and the bulk of the population will on board this Exceptional US Patriot Express in a flash.

Clearly Trump and his team are doing the usual to setup the 2020 elections and win hands down as another War president.

Which leaves another question about the cognitive dissonance of the Trump Supporters, the one's who voted for him to stop doing this kind of shit and having Presidents and their Administrations and the Media outright lying through their teeth and using sophistry and marketing techniques to convince the populous what they are doing is Noble and Ethical and Justified.

History being what it is a very good teacher for those able to dig into the complex details and the competing rhetoric of the past and learn from it. It's such a good teacher I have no doubt Trump is going to "win" this project hands down. How to win such a campaign to get the US Public on board is a high art in the USA. They got it nailed and Trump has not found his feet and doing what he was always capable of doing. Uniting the nation against "tyranny and evil"

Nothing can stop this now. Maduro is "toast" and Venezuela and other places in South America is going to bleed for at least a decade and Trump will be re-elected in a heart beat.

No one from the Democrats will be able to put up a challenge against this Latin Vietnam and win the hearts and minds of the US Public and Media at the same time. So Tulsi Gabbard is now toast too. As is Bernie .. which will open the door up for Joe Biden to walk through and maybe have a shot at. But US Policy will remain the same, and US principles and Values will remain the same too. 

And next to nothing will be done of any significance in the USA to address Agw/CC between now and circa 2030. So be it. (barring miracles and acts of God in coming years) But the die is cast now.

Trump is now doing exactly what he said he would not do. Just as GW Bush and Obama did what he said he would never do in his 2000 election. But once they get inside the Oval Office all these kinds of promises go out the window. They stop living in reality, lose touch with who they are and what they believed, their values and PRINCIPLES,  and RATIONALIZE away what they had promised, because it is them who get manipulated by those around them so easily by TPTB and their spokespeople in the Administration.

It's a fixed template. The US has it down pat.

Lastly it should also be obvious but just in case it isn't, if Hillary Clinton had one she would have been on stage saying the exact same things as Trump yesterday. I bet she is really green with envy now! :)

ASILurker

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Re: The Empire vs Venezuela - News and History
« Reply #9 on: February 19, 2019, 07:39:51 PM »
This thread is a shame that I wish I hadn't had the displeasure to find.


Neven is away for a few days, as soon as he gets back I am sure he will remove this new thread from the front page panel and so you can more easily ignore it.

ASILurker

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Re: The Empire vs Venezuela - News and History
« Reply #10 on: February 19, 2019, 07:59:17 PM »
This thread is a shame that I wish I hadn't had the displeasure to find.


Neven is away for a few days, as soon as he gets back I am sure he will remove this new thread from the front page panel and so you can more easily ignore it.

ASILurker

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Re: The Empire vs Venezuela - News and History
« Reply #11 on: February 19, 2019, 08:00:06 PM »
"manipulated content" ? (sigh) but to be expected. Issues such as this subject become issues because they're contested. Just like the 2016 elections (and many other things) were contested became an issue and still are.

To lumenkraft and HHI I'm thinking along these lines atm. Venezuela is going to be a confronting issue for anti-Trumpers, Russiagaters and strong pro-Hillary/pro-Pelosi Democrats - not merely the media but everyday people. I think it is going to push a lot of buttons and generate much "cognitive dissonance" because what will be coming up whether consciously or unconsciously.

I suspect most will quite easily (and quickly be forced) to make major rationalizations to the keep their mental ship afloat.

On the other hand it will be interesting to attach where Bernie Sanders goes with this, and AOC, and Tulsi Gabbard in the democrat circles. I think I have a good idea where Jill Stein will go, the overall the anti-war, anti-regime change public figures are going to take enormous heat from this, and they will be ostracized, and they be pilloried, and they will be silenced by the media but will they personally "fold" or stick to principle and reason?

I have no doubt the US as a whole (polling etc) will back this new War to the hilt. Not only the war against Venezuela but this entire anti-socialism / communism rhetoric across the board .. the media and the bulk of the population will on board this Exceptional US Patriot Express in a flash.

Clearly Trump and his team are doing the usual to setup the 2020 elections and win hands down as another War president.

Which leaves another question about the cognitive dissonance of the Trump Supporters, the one's who voted for him to stop doing this kind of shit and having Presidents and their Administrations and the Media outright lying through their teeth and using sophistry and marketing techniques to convince the populous what they are doing is Noble and Ethical and Justified.

History being what it is a very good teacher for those able to dig into the complex details and the competing rhetoric of the past and learn from it. It's such a good teacher I have no doubt Trump is going to "win" this project hands down. How to win such a campaign to get the US Public on board is a high art in the USA. They got it nailed and Trump has not found his feet and doing what he was always capable of doing. Uniting the nation against "tyranny and evil"

Nothing can stop this now. Maduro is "toast" and Venezuela and other places in South America is going to bleed for at least a decade and Trump will be re-elected in a heart beat.

No one from the Democrats will be able to put up a challenge against this Latin Vietnam and win the hearts and minds of the US Public and Media at the same time. So Tulsi Gabbard is now toast too. As is Bernie .. which will open the door up for Joe Biden to walk through and maybe have a shot at. But US Policy will remain the same, and US principles and Values will remain the same too. 

And subsequently being on a war footing and all the media attention on War, next to nothing will be done of any significance in the USA to address Agw/CC between now and circa 2030. So be it ... (barring miracles and acts of God in coming years). Not my problem or responsibility to fix that.  But the die is cast now.

Trump is now doing exactly what he said he would not do. Just as GW Bush (and Obama too) what he said he would never do in his 2000 election - he'd stop the overseas UN involvements, put the US first and stop the regime change useless wars and waste of US lives and coin.

But once they get inside the Oval Office all these kinds of promises go out the window. They stop living in reality, lose touch with who they are and what they believed, their values and PRINCIPLES,  and RATIONALIZE away what they had promised, because it is them who get manipulated by those around them so easily by TPTB  and their "owned" spokespeople inside the Administration, and perfectly aligned with the Presidents own egotistical drive for political survival and being to be seen as a "US hero" of note in US history post-office. Trump is no different than all the rest before him and all the wanna bes like McCain.

It's a fixed template. The US has it down pat. Not hard to write the movie plot now and get it 99% right of what comes from here. Suddenly almost out of nowhere Trump loves Cuba and Venezuela and we just go to go save those poor poor downtrodden "freedom loving" people right now immediately or else the world will end. Only America can save them now!!!

Lastly it should also be obvious but just in case it isn't, if Hillary Clinton had one she would have been on stage saying the exact same things as Trump yesterday. I bet she is really green with envy now!
« Last Edit: February 19, 2019, 08:13:45 PM by Lurk »

ASILurker

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Re: The Empire vs Venezuela - News and History
« Reply #12 on: February 19, 2019, 08:14:26 PM »
"manipulated content" ? (sigh) but to be expected. Issues such as this subject become issues because they're contested. Just like the 2016 elections (and many other things) were contested became an issue and still are.

To lumenkraft and HHI I'm thinking along these lines atm. Venezuela is going to be a confronting issue for anti-Trumpers, Russiagaters and strong pro-Hillary/pro-Pelosi Democrats - not merely the media but everyday people. I think it is going to push a lot of buttons and generate much "cognitive dissonance" because what will be coming up whether consciously or unconsciously.

I suspect most will quite easily (and quickly be forced) to make major rationalizations to the keep their mental ship afloat.

On the other hand it will be interesting to attach where Bernie Sanders goes with this, and AOC, and Tulsi Gabbard in the democrat circles. I think I have a good idea where Jill Stein will go, the overall the anti-war, anti-regime change public figures are going to take enormous heat from this, and they will be ostracized, and they be pilloried, and they will be silenced by the media but will they personally "fold" or stick to principle and reason?

I have no doubt the US as a whole (polling etc) will back this new War to the hilt. Not only the war against Venezuela but this entire anti-socialism / communism rhetoric across the board .. the media and the bulk of the population will on board this Exceptional US Patriot Express in a flash.

Clearly Trump and his team are doing the usual to setup the 2020 elections and win hands down as another War president.

Which leaves another question about the cognitive dissonance of the Trump Supporters, the one's who voted for him to stop doing this kind of shit and having Presidents and their Administrations and the Media outright lying through their teeth and using sophistry and marketing techniques to convince the populous what they are doing is Noble and Ethical and Justified.

History being what it is a very good teacher for those able to dig into the complex details and the competing rhetoric of the past and learn from it. It's such a good teacher I have no doubt Trump is going to "win" this project hands down. How to win such a campaign to get the US Public on board is a high art in the USA. They got it nailed and Trump has not found his feet and doing what he was always capable of doing. Uniting the nation against "tyranny and evil"

Nothing can stop this now. Maduro is "toast" and Venezuela and other places in South America is going to bleed for at least a decade and Trump will be re-elected in a heart beat.

No one from the Democrats will be able to put up a challenge against this Latin Vietnam and win the hearts and minds of the US Public and Media at the same time. So Tulsi Gabbard is now toast too. As is Bernie .. which will open the door up for Joe Biden to walk through and maybe have a shot at. But US Policy will remain the same, and US principles and Values will remain the same too. 

And subsequently being on a war footing and all the media attention on War, next to nothing will be done of any significance in the USA to address Agw/CC between now and circa 2030. So be it ... (barring miracles and acts of God in coming years). Not my problem or responsibility to fix that.  But the die is cast now.

Trump is now doing exactly what he said he would not do. Just as GW Bush (and Obama too) what he said he would never do in his 2000 election - he'd stop the overseas UN involvements, put the US first and stop the regime change useless wars and waste of US lives and coin.

But once they get inside the Oval Office all these kinds of promises go out the window. They stop living in reality, lose touch with who they are and what they believed, their values and PRINCIPLES,  and RATIONALIZE away what they had promised, because it is them who get manipulated by those around them so easily by TPTB  and their "owned" spokespeople inside the Administration, and perfectly aligned with the Presidents own egotistical drive for political survival and being to be seen as a "US hero" of note in US history post-office. Trump is no different than all the rest before him and all the wanna bes like McCain.

It's a fixed template. The US has it down pat. Not hard to write the movie plot now and get it 99% right of what comes from here. Suddenly almost out of nowhere Trump loves Cuba and Venezuela and we just go to go save those poor poor downtrodden "freedom loving" people right now immediately or else the world will end. Only America can save them now!!!

Lastly it should also be obvious but just in case it isn't, if Hillary Clinton had one she would have been on stage saying the exact same things as Trump yesterday. I bet she is really green with envy now!

Sterks

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Re: The Empire vs Venezuela - News and History
« Reply #13 on: February 19, 2019, 08:59:25 PM »
Hey Sterks,

may i ask you, are you from Venezuela?

No man, but good friend of a couple, and I know more around my place.

I think Venezuelans have been fleeing and coming to Spain in increasing numbers since the late 2000's. I believe it has become a simple matter of finding a place to survive and have a life with dignity.

Anyway, I am not going to follow this thread anymore, not going to bother around. Anyone is entitled to their own opinions and beliefs. And I don't know so much about geopolitics. But let's be clear, millions are suffering misery and lack of freedom over there, and Chaves first and then Maduro are RESPONSIBLE. This is not the non-existing "weapons of mass destruction". No, here there is a weapon of mass destruction: tyrannic populism greedy of profits from natural resources.

I hope international response avoids any kind of full-fledged war, or an unilateral imperialist act, but in any case SHAME ON MADURO for what could ever happen. Don't put that on Trump, as disgusting as the guy can be (actually the orange man doesn't like wars, he thinks they're bad for business, so his greed may have that silver lining)

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Re: The Empire vs Venezuela - News and History
« Reply #14 on: February 19, 2019, 11:14:10 PM »
Hey Sterks,

may i ask you, are you from Venezuela?

No man, but good friend of a couple, and I know more around my place.

I think Venezuelans have been fleeing and coming to Spain in increasing numbers since the late 2000's. I believe it has become a simple matter of finding a place to survive and have a life with dignity.

Anyway, I am not going to follow this thread anymore, not going to bother around. Anyone is entitled to their own opinions and beliefs. And I don't know so much about geopolitics. But let's be clear, millions are suffering misery and lack of freedom over there, and Chaves first and then Maduro are RESPONSIBLE. This is not the non-existing "weapons of mass destruction". No, here there is a weapon of mass destruction: tyrannic populism greedy of profits from natural resources.

I hope international response avoids any kind of full-fledged war, or an unilateral imperialist act, but in any case SHAME ON MADURO for what could ever happen. Don't put that on Trump, as disgusting as the guy can be (actually the orange man doesn't like wars, he thinks they're bad for business, so his greed may have that silver lining)
There is a principle which is a bar against all information, which cannot fail to keep a man in everlasting ignorance. That principle is contempt prior to investigation. - Herbert Spencer

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Re: The Empire vs Venezuela - News and History
« Reply #15 on: February 19, 2019, 11:17:27 PM »
"manipulated content" ? (sigh) but to be expected. Issues such as this subject become issues because they're contested. Just like the 2016 elections (and many other things) were contested became an issue and still are.

To lumenkraft and HHI I'm thinking along these lines atm. Venezuela is going to be a confronting issue for anti-Trumpers, Russiagaters and strong pro-Hillary/pro-Pelosi Democrats - not merely the media but everyday people. I think it is going to push a lot of buttons and generate much "cognitive dissonance" because what will be coming up whether consciously or unconsciously.
I suspect most will quite easily (and quickly be forced) to make major rationalizations to the keep their mental ship afloat.

On the other hand it will be interesting to attach where Bernie Sanders goes with this, and AOC, and Tulsi Gabbard in the democrat circles. I think I have a good idea where Jill Stein will go, the overall the anti-war, anti-regime change public figures are going to take enormous heat from this, and they will be ostracized, and they be pilloried, and they will be silenced by the media but will they personally "fold" or stick to principle and reason?

I have no doubt the US as a whole (polling etc) will back this new War to the hilt. Not only the war against Venezuela but this entire anti-socialism / communism rhetoric across the board .. the media and the bulk of the population will on board this Exceptional US Patriot Express in a flash.

Clearly Trump and his team are doing the usual to setup the 2020 elections and win hands down as another War president.

Which leaves another question about the cognitive dissonance of the Trump Supporters, the one's who voted for him to stop doing this kind of shit and having Presidents and their Administrations and the Media outright lying through their teeth and using sophistry and marketing techniques to convince the populous what they are doing is Noble and Ethical and Justified.

History being what it is a very good teacher for those able to dig into the complex details and the competing rhetoric of the past and learn from it. It's such a good teacher I have no doubt Trump is going to "win" this project hands down. How to win such a campaign to get the US Public on board is a high art in the USA. They got it nailed and Trump has not found his feet and doing what he was always capable of doing. Uniting the nation against "tyranny and evil"

Nothing can stop this now. Maduro is "toast" and Venezuela and other places in South America is going to bleed for at least a decade and Trump will be re-elected in a heart beat.

No one from the Democrats will be able to put up a challenge against this Latin Vietnam and win the hearts and minds of the US Public and Media at the same time. So Tulsi Gabbard is now toast too. As is Bernie .. which will open the door up for Joe Biden to walk through and maybe have a shot at. But US Policy will remain the same, and US principles and Values will remain the same too. 

And subsequently being on a war footing and all the media attention on War, next to nothing will be done of any significance in the USA to address Agw/CC between now and circa 2030. So be it ... (barring miracles and acts of God in coming years). Not my problem or responsibility to fix that.  But the die is cast now.

Trump is now doing exactly what he said he would not do. Just as GW Bush (and Obama too) what he said he would never do in his 2000 election - he'd stop the overseas UN involvements, put the US first and stop the regime change useless wars and waste of US lives and coin.

But once they get inside the Oval Office all these kinds of promises go out the window. They stop living in reality, lose touch with who they are and what they believed, their values and PRINCIPLES,  and RATIONALIZE away what they had promised, because it is them who get manipulated by those around them so easily by TPTB  and their "owned" spokespeople inside the Administration, and perfectly aligned with the Presidents own egotistical drive for political survival and being to be seen as a "US hero" of note in US history post-office. Trump is no different than all the rest before him and all the wanna bes like McCain.

It's a fixed template. The US has it down pat. Not hard to write the movie plot now and get it 99% right of what comes from here. Suddenly almost out of nowhere Trump loves Cuba and Venezuela and we just go to go save those poor poor downtrodden "freedom loving" people right now immediately or else the world will end. Only America can save them now!!!

Lastly it should also be obvious but just in case it isn't, if Hillary Clinton had one she would have been on stage saying the exact same things as Trump yesterday. I bet she is really green with envy now!

Remembering September 11 1973

Were the lives of those killed at the World Trade Centre more valuable than the innocents murdered in Chile's US-backed coup, asks Tito Tricot

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2002/sep/16/pinochet.september11
There is a principle which is a bar against all information, which cannot fail to keep a man in everlasting ignorance. That principle is contempt prior to investigation. - Herbert Spencer

ASILurker

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Re: The Empire vs Venezuela - News and History
« Reply #16 on: February 20, 2019, 01:56:49 AM »

Remembering September 11 1973

Were the lives of those killed at the World Trade Centre more valuable than the innocents murdered in Chile's US-backed coup, asks Tito Tricot

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2002/sep/16/pinochet.september11

Quote
The truth is that no US president ever shed a tear for our dead; no US politician ever sent a flower to our widows. The US government and media [and the American-First World Public] use different standards to measure suffering.

It is precisely this hypocrisy and these double standards that make us sick, especially when on such a symbolic day for Chileans, the president of Chile, Ricardo Lagos, attended a memorial service at the United States embassy where the ambassador, William Brownfield, stated that "people [and nations] who hate the United States must be controlled, arrested or eliminated".

In what kind of a world are we living? Can we stand idly by while in the name of the fight against terrorism countries are bombed or invaded by the US war machine? [ Of course the answer is YES! ]

I think not, especially because, irrespective of the horror of the World Trade Centre attacks, the US has no moral right to impose its will on our continent. After all, we in Latin America have ample experience with US terrorist tactics.

In our continent alone 90,000 people disappeared as a direct result of the operation of the School of the Americas and US "counterinsurgency" policies - 30 times more than the victims of the World Trade Centre.

ASILurker

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Re: The Empire vs Venezuela - News and History
« Reply #17 on: February 20, 2019, 01:58:27 AM »

Remembering September 11 1973

Were the lives of those killed at the World Trade Centre more valuable than the innocents murdered in Chile's US-backed coup, asks Tito Tricot

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2002/sep/16/pinochet.september11

Quote
The truth is that no US president ever shed a tear for our dead; no US politician ever sent a flower to our widows. The US government and media [and the American-First World Public] use different standards to measure suffering.

It is precisely this hypocrisy and these double standards that make us sick, especially when on such a symbolic day for Chileans, the president of Chile, Ricardo Lagos, attended a memorial service at the United States embassy where the ambassador, William Brownfield, stated that "people [and nations] who hate the United States must be controlled, arrested or eliminated".

In what kind of a world are we living? Can we stand idly by while in the name of the fight against terrorism countries are bombed or invaded by the US war machine? [ Of course the answer is YES! ]

I think not, especially because, irrespective of the horror of the World Trade Centre attacks, the US has no moral right to impose its will on our continent. After all, we in Latin America have ample experience with US terrorist tactics.

In our continent alone 90,000 people disappeared as a direct result of the operation of the School of the Americas and US "counterinsurgency" policies - 30 times more than the victims of the World Trade Centre.

ASILurker

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Re: The Empire vs Venezuela - News and History
« Reply #18 on: February 20, 2019, 09:02:43 AM »

ASILurker

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Re: The Empire vs Venezuela - News and History
« Reply #19 on: February 20, 2019, 09:27:34 AM »

ASILurker

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Re: The Empire vs Venezuela - News and History
« Reply #20 on: February 20, 2019, 09:59:57 AM »
Filmed by Paul Hubbard at Massachusetts Institute of Technology on 12-15-2009 one decade ago.


Martin Gisser

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Re: The Empire vs Venezuela - News and History
« Reply #21 on: February 20, 2019, 05:40:28 PM »
Trump on Venezuela, July 2017. A snippet from McCabe's recent book "The Threat" via books.google.

« Last Edit: February 20, 2019, 06:22:39 PM by Martin Gisser »

ASILurker

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Re: The Empire vs Venezuela - News and History
« Reply #22 on: February 21, 2019, 04:21:38 AM »
imho a video of the DPB should be published in full no later than 48 hours after is had on the Comedy Channel.

The world would be a safer place if the people got to hear the ludicrously insane things delivered to the President, their comments and the responses from NDI that ensue.

It would also help if the people of the world got to hear the true things disclosed to the president by the NDI as well as the made up bullshit he gets to hear.

Yeah I am a genuine cynic on these matters but for very good rational reasons. :)

ASILurker

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Re: The Empire vs Venezuela - News and History
« Reply #23 on: February 21, 2019, 04:22:29 AM »
imho a video of the DPB should be published in full no later than 48 hours after is had on the Comedy Channel.

The world would be a safer place if the people got to hear the ludicrously insane things delivered to the President, their comments and the responses from NDI that ensue.

It would also help if the people of the world got to hear the true things disclosed to the president by the NDI as well as the made up bullshit he gets to hear.

Yeah I am a genuine cynic on these matters but for very good rational reasons. :)

ASILurker

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Re: The Empire vs Venezuela - News and History
« Reply #24 on: February 22, 2019, 01:33:19 AM »
Trump on Venezuela, July 2017. A snippet from McCabe's recent book "The Threat" via books.google.

Jimmy Dore picks up the same quote by Trump in McCabes book via Aaron Mate


ASILurker

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Re: The Empire vs Venezuela - News and History
« Reply #25 on: February 22, 2019, 01:35:04 AM »
Trump on Venezuela, July 2017. A snippet from McCabe's recent book "The Threat" via books.google.

Jimmy Dore picks up the same quote by Trump in McCabes book via Aaron Mate





08:49
Dore: "Do you see that were ruled by Psychopaths? Do you see that the news media is filled with sociopaths and narcissists? Sociopaths - they're pushing for a war in Venezuela right now in the news media after Iraq Libya Syria they're still doing that - it's never gonna stop?"

It's never gonna stop unless and until the American people and/or the global Community of nations demands that it stops and forces it to be stopped. 

Until this insane deceitful crap by the USA political system is stopped then no genuine action plans to fight AGW/CC will ever become a global harmonized campaign that can work successfully.
« Last Edit: February 22, 2019, 04:42:54 AM by Lurk »

ASILurker

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Re: The Empire vs Venezuela - News and History
« Reply #26 on: February 22, 2019, 04:01:00 AM »
But then Dore goes a little further by putting some meat on those bones and presenting a more holistic perspective placing into context what this actually means in the big scheme of things when it comes to critical warmongering regime change issues that go far beyond one dufus Presidents crazy ideas and into the extreme systemic problems in the USA and the clients states in the west overall.

Quoting Jimmy Dore here:
Quote

"I think that's interesting to say the very least. Everyone knows - like it's out in the open now - but it's somehow like no - (Democrat) Nancy Pelosi supports this cool stuff in Venezuela and pretend she's for the people.

What Nancy Pelosi's really revealing is that she's a sociopath and I'm not saying that that's not hyperbole that she's a sociopath because she knows this is the actual truth and (yet still) she's for overthrowing (the legitimate Government there),  she's for arming rebels causing a civil war, she's for all this horrible stuff and I'm not just picking out Nancy - I'm picking on her cuz she's the leader that everybody in Congress is like this with Trump pretty much -

Everybody is okay and they know that it's, they know that this is what it actually is, it's a it's a it's a grab for oil - everyone knows this except somehow the American people are still deluded because everybody on every corporate news show and lots of lefty news shows repeat the government propaganda  that's propaganda - that's called Manufacturing Consent."


Yes, the Democrats under Pelosi and Schumer are 100% behind this as much as the GOP warmongers are because the Democrat Party are as an Institution War Mongers too. It's obvious. It's provable. It's right in people's faces and yet still most refuse to see it - all they is Trump and McCabe quote from his book - they miss the rest of it. 

The MSM is 100% behind this Propaganda. The EU is 100% behind this Propaganda. Canada's Govt and Media along with NATO nations are (except for Turkey) 100% behind this Propaganda. Australia and Saudi Arabia and Israel are 100% behind this Propaganda.

Yes this old news about the Manufacturing Consent Reality:  aka The Truth
https://forum.arctic-sea-ice.net/index.php/topic,2571.msg189481.html#msg189481

For even Bernie Sanders fell into line on the Venezuela issue. He had to or it would have ruined his Candidacy announcement for President where he would have had weeks of being pilloried by the Press for "defending a murderous socialist dictator" etc etc etc etc

Jimmy Dore? Yes I like him because like me he is able to capture the really important (but unstated) details and the critical Principles in the connections and interrelationships of what's going on in the now that 99% of people totally miss and almost 100% of the MSM intentionally ignore.

More refs about Manufacturing Consent if interested.
https://forum.arctic-sea-ice.net/index.php/topic,2554.msg187444.html#msg187444
« Last Edit: February 22, 2019, 04:34:00 AM by Lurk »

ASILurker

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Re: The Empire vs Venezuela - News and History
« Reply #27 on: February 22, 2019, 04:44:06 AM »
Trump on Venezuela, July 2017. A snippet from McCabe's recent book "The Threat" via books.google.

Jimmy Dore picks up the same quote by Trump in McCabes book via Aaron Mate



08:49
Dore: "Do you see that were ruled by Psychopaths? Do you see that the news media is filled with sociopaths and narcissists? Sociopaths - they're pushing for a war in Venezuela right now in the news media after Iraq Libya Syria they're still doing that - it's never gonna stop?"

It's never gonna stop unless and until the American people and/or the global Community of nations demands that it stops and forces it to be stopped. 

Until this insane deceitful crap by the USA political system is stopped then no genuine action plans to fight AGW/CC will ever become a global harmonized campaign that can work successfully.

ASILurker

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Re: The Empire vs Venezuela - News and History
« Reply #28 on: February 22, 2019, 04:48:26 AM »
I appreciate what Dore does despite any failings because he goes a little further by putting some meat on those bones of the basic "news reporting"

Dore and many like him today have provide a huge Plus Element by presenting a more holistic perspective placing simple facts into context,  what these facts actually means in the big scheme of things especially when it comes to critical warmongering regime change issues that in truth go far beyond one dufus Presidents crazy ideas and into the extreme systemic problems in the USA and it's bought and paid for clients states in South America and across the world.

Quoting Jimmy Dore here:
Quote

"I think that's interesting to say the very least. Everyone knows - like it's out in the open now - but it's somehow like no - (Democrat) Nancy Pelosi supports this cool stuff in Venezuela and pretend she's for the people.

What Nancy Pelosi's really revealing is that she's a sociopath and I'm not saying that that's not hyperbole that she's a sociopath because she knows this is the actual truth and (yet still) she's for overthrowing (the legitimate Government there),  she's for arming rebels causing a civil war, she's for all this horrible stuff and I'm not just picking out Nancy - I'm picking on her cuz she's the leader that everybody in Congress is like this with Trump pretty much -

Everybody is okay and they know that it's, they know that this is what it actually is, it's a it's a it's a grab for oil - everyone knows this except somehow the American people are still deluded because everybody on every corporate news show and lots of lefty news shows repeat the government propaganda  that's propaganda - that's called Manufacturing Consent."


Yes, the Democrats under Pelosi and Schumer are 100% behind this as much as the GOP warmongers are because the Democrat Party are as an Institution of Sociopathic War Mongers too. It's obvious. It's provable. It's right in people's faces and yet still most refuse to see it - all they see is Trump and a short McCabe quote from his book - most people miss the rest of it - they cannot see it - they cannot be told. 

The MSM is 100% behind this Propaganda. The EU is 100% behind this Propaganda. Canada's Govt and Media along with NATO nations are (except for Turkey) 100% behind this Propaganda. Australia and Saudi Arabia and Israel are 100% behind this Propaganda.

Yes this is old news about the Manufacturing Consent Reality:  aka The Truth and Jimmy Dore is spot on for raising it and going ballistic about it. 
https://forum.arctic-sea-ice.net/index.php/topic,2571.msg189481.html#msg189481

For even Bernie Sanders fell into line on the Venezuela issue. He had to or it would have ruined his Candidacy announcement for President where he would have had weeks of being pilloried by the Press for "defending a murderous socialist dictator" etc etc etc etc

Jimmy Dore? Yes I like him because like me he is able to capture the really important (but unstated) details and the critical Principles in the connections and interrelationships of what's going on in the now that 99% of people totally miss and almost 100% of the MSM intentionally ignore.

More refs about Manufacturing Consent if interested.
https://forum.arctic-sea-ice.net/index.php/topic,2554.msg187444.html#msg187444

El Cid

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Re: The Empire vs Venezuela - News and History
« Reply #29 on: February 22, 2019, 07:52:00 AM »
The Empire vs Venezuela? Seriously?

Venezuela vs. Reason
Venezuela vs. its own people
Socialism still doesn't work

These 3 are the real subjects, not the above

I am truly amazed by the spread of socilaism in the West especially amongst the youth. It can only happen to those who did not live in a totalitarian-socialist/communist regime. I did. I know how terrible it is and why it does not work. We had a joke: "Introduce socialism in the Sahara and soon sand will be in short supply". These regimes ALWAYS destroy human dignity, lead to opression, suffering, and lowered living standards. I can not comprehend how anyone can take the side of Maduro (Chavez).

The West has lived too well for too long. You do not appreciate what you have, that is why you will lose it and be sorry afterwards but it will be too late by then. Witness the stupidity of Trump and Brexit - the writing is on the wall.

b_lumenkraft

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Re: The Empire vs Venezuela - News and History
« Reply #30 on: February 22, 2019, 10:10:37 AM »
Hey El Cid,

may i ask you, do you see any responsibility on the American side at all?

I mean are US sanctions and interference not affecting the situation of Venezuela in in your opinion?

Phil42

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Re: The Empire vs Venezuela - News and History
« Reply #31 on: February 22, 2019, 10:56:15 AM »
...
I am truly amazed by the spread of socilaism in the West especially amongst the youth. It can only happen to those who did not live in a totalitarian-socialist/communist regime. I did. I know how terrible it is and why it does not work. We had a joke: "Introduce socialism in the Sahara and soon sand will be in short supply". These regimes ALWAYS destroy human dignity, lead to opression, suffering, and lowered living standards. I can not comprehend how anyone can take the side of Maduro (Chavez).
...

Since I am in that exact group of young people who fight for socialism I think I should reply to this. And I don't reply to attack you, I just want to give you an insight of why I (and many many more especially in the youth) hold those beliefs.

I was born in this world which is run by an untouchable elite class, which has - during the last several decades - accumulated enough wealth (which in a capitalist system is power) to have total control over the life of the lower class, since money is something you need to survive in capitalist society. They have done this by exploiting people and the planet for the sole sake of profit. Since they are also the ones that are profiting from the status quo, they put a lot of effort into maintaining it. Therefore, nothing will fundamentally change (by which I mean that whoever is in power in this system still has the main goal of accumulating profit and staying in power).

Now, as you might understand, I don't like this. I don't like growing up on a planet that I will most likely see collapsing ecologically and economically. I don't like it that my life and future is controlled by same ultra-rich old men who are responsible for that and don't feel any effects of what they are doing to the people and the planet. And what I despise the most is that I have absolutely no ability to change that, since the capitalist system is built in a way that it can always survive by giving more and more power to the elite and smash every movement which intends to build a society without those classes through propaganda, sanctions and repression.

It's really not cool to look into a future where more and more people will suffer. And instead of collaborating and working together to fix the issues we face, I see leaders embracing nationalism and encouraging individualism. The "Fuck you I got mine" mindset is ultimately rooted in capitalism, and this just has no place if we want to keep this planet alive.

What I don't understand is why the majority of people keeps defending a system that is knowingly, actively and inevitably destroying lives, our planet and our future.


This went pretty off-topic sorry, but I just wanted to give an insight to El Cid. Now back to topic.

ASILurker

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Re: The Empire vs Venezuela - News and History
« Reply #32 on: February 22, 2019, 11:41:13 AM »
This went pretty off-topic sorry

Um, no it didn't. It's 100% on topic. Thank you.

b_lumenkraft

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Re: The Empire vs Venezuela - News and History
« Reply #33 on: February 22, 2019, 01:23:11 PM »
Thanks, Phil for sharing!

b_lumenkraft

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Re: The Empire vs Venezuela - News and History
« Reply #34 on: February 22, 2019, 01:24:03 PM »
An Ocean of Lies on Venezuela: Abby Martin & UN Rapporteur Expose Coup

b_lumenkraft

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Re: The Empire vs Venezuela - News and History
« Reply #35 on: February 22, 2019, 01:52:39 PM »
Oh look what even The American Conservative has to say:

Quote
Trump is absolutely not a non-interventionist, and he sees countries rich in natural resources as desirable targets for plunder.

Link >> https://www.theamericanconservative.com/larison/venezuela-and-trumps-plunder-doctrine/

El Cid

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Re: The Empire vs Venezuela - News and History
« Reply #36 on: February 22, 2019, 02:32:14 PM »
Hey El Cid,

may i ask you, do you see any responsibility on the American side at all?

I mean are US sanctions and interference not affecting the situation of Venezuela in in your opinion?

We are talking about these sanctions, just to be clear:
https://fas.org/sgp/crs/row/IF10715.pdf

Sanctions had negligible effect on what happened in Venezuela. This country was the richest Latam Country in the 70s, now they have no food, no toilet paper even. This is totally due to "21st century socialism". 

El Cid

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Re: The Empire vs Venezuela - News and History
« Reply #37 on: February 22, 2019, 02:45:55 PM »
...
I am truly amazed by the spread of socilaism in the West especially amongst the youth. It can only happen to those who did not live in a totalitarian-socialist/communist regime. I did. I know how terrible it is and why it does not work. We had a joke: "Introduce socialism in the Sahara and soon sand will be in short supply". These regimes ALWAYS destroy human dignity, lead to opression, suffering, and lowered living standards. I can not comprehend how anyone can take the side of Maduro (Chavez).
...

Since I am in that exact group of young people who fight for socialism I think I should reply to this. And I don't reply to attack you, I just want to give you an insight of why I (and many many more especially in the youth) hold those beliefs.

Phil,

I understand your anger and it is absoultely just. However, wherever/whenever we tried socialism/communism (and I lived under such a regime) it ALWAYS led to repression and suffering and low standards of living. Therefore, anyone, who studied history must understand that this is NOT the solution. And it cannot be, you can not mend the system, because it does not work the way people are working. in a socialist system, everyone owns the means of production but it actually means that noone owns them, noone gives a shit, noone wants to create anything new, noone wants to work. This is actual experience.

Social-democracy in Europe seems to be the closest to the solution (attached chart, see scandinavia: low inequality, high social mobility). The government has the tools, can create the incentives to save the world from self-destruction, eg. by a big carbon-tax, by banning plastics in most cases, by taxing air-travel, by providing subsidised housing as in Vienna for example, by banning offshore companies, by increasing the inheritance tax, by closing loopholes and so on and on. Even a huge "Green New Deal" is possible within a social-democracy, and let's not forget that in the 1940s the top US tax rate was 94% if I remember well!

We need evolution not revolution and certainly not 21st century socialism

SteveMDFP

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Re: The Empire vs Venezuela - News and History
« Reply #38 on: February 22, 2019, 04:01:10 PM »


Social-democracy in Europe seems to be the closest to the solution (attached chart, see scandinavia: low inequality, high social mobility). The government has the tools, can create the incentives to save the world from self-destruction, 

I think most here would agree with this portion.
But terminology is tricky, and can lead to pointless arguments.
The communist regimes weren't awful because of "socialism," they were awful mostly because of one-party, authoritarian rule.  Extending authoritarian rule into the economy tends toward "totalitarian." 

In the US, we don't have "social democrats," we have "democratic socialists."  Same thing, as far as I can tell.  And an unfortunate choice of label in the US.
So, in the US, if one denounces "socialism," one is including democratic socialism.

Seems plain to me that pure socialism is just as inhumane and intolerable as pure capitalism. Any rational, humane, sustainable system is going to have elements of both.

Finding the golden mean on a global scale can be viewed as our great current challenge.

El Cid

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Re: The Empire vs Venezuela - News and History
« Reply #39 on: February 22, 2019, 04:24:20 PM »
Steve,

I fully agree with you

ASILurker

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Re: The Empire vs Venezuela - News and History
« Reply #40 on: February 23, 2019, 02:45:54 AM »
Steve,

I fully agree with you

Then why the hell did you yourself NOT make that clear in the first place yourself? Please do not hijack the thread I started with bs arguments about the meaning of a word! iow get your facts right the first time.

For the record Venezuela is no less democratic socialist, no less a working Democracy with checks and balances operating under the Rule of Law as those in the bottom left of your graph ... Norway, Denmark, Finland, Australia, New Zealand, Canada, Germany, France, Spain, or Singapore.

It simply has only had 20 years to try and refloat the boat whereas the above have been at it a lot longer. So give them a break.

I bet my house those friends of Sterks from Venezuela are not brown or black, doh!

Sanctions had negligible effect on what happened in Venezuela. This country was the richest Latam Country in the 70s, now they have no food, no toilet paper even. This is totally due to "21st century socialism". 

That's an opinion not founded in facts or the truth of it. Please educate yourself better, including the long history pre-Chavez, and please stop repeating the mindless Memes of the Mega Rich. It's not 1970 any more. It's as rich as it has ever been.

ASILurker

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Re: The Empire vs Venezuela - News and History
« Reply #41 on: February 23, 2019, 03:04:56 AM »
What are the similarities between Oil rich Venezuela and Oil rich Saudi Arabia?

1) The Government owns the Oil on behalf of the People
2) The Government has Contracts with multi-national Oil Companies to extract and export that Oil

What are the differences?

1) Saudi Arabia is a Totalitarian Socialist Regime with a totally Government controlled Economy and Society.
2) Venezuela is a Democratic Socialist elected Government with a Capitalist Economic System
3) The USA does NOT have Sanctions or Financial Embargoes on Saudi Arabia, it does on Venezuela
4) The USA is NOT trying to bring Regime Change to the Saudi Government it is doing that to Venezuelan Government.
5) The USA is NOT trying to "steal" the Oil wealth from the people of Saudi Arabia - it is doing that to the people of Venezuela.

These things are overt and obvious to most and yet some are incredibly deluded about these comparative facts. They swallow whole what they are being told without a rational thought occurring in their heads.

They typically lack solid Principles, Morals, Ethics, Empathy, Wisdom and Accurate Complete Information imho. 

The US Government lies repeatedly. That is a fact. Why do people still believe what they say - even when it's Trump, Bolton, Pence and Pompeo doing the talking? That is the mystery answer!!!
« Last Edit: February 23, 2019, 03:10:50 AM by Lurk »

zizek

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Re: The Empire vs Venezuela - News and History
« Reply #42 on: February 23, 2019, 03:09:07 AM »
This forum is infected with crotchey old conservatives spreading nonsense propaganda. Like clockwork, every thread that challenges the status quo, some geezer comes in here parroting garbage they heard from Raegan.

ASILurker

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Re: The Empire vs Venezuela - News and History
« Reply #43 on: February 23, 2019, 03:11:57 AM »
What are the similarities between Oil rich Venezuela and Oil rich Saudi Arabia?

1) The Government owns the Oil on behalf of the People
2) The Government has Contracts with multi-national Oil Companies to extract and export that Oil

What are the differences?

1) Saudi Arabia is a Totalitarian Socialist Regime with a totally Government controlled Economy and Society.
2) Venezuela is a Democratic Socialist elected Government with a Capitalist Economic System
3) The USA does NOT have Sanctions or Financial Embargoes on Saudi Arabia, it does on Venezuela
4) The USA is NOT trying to bring Regime Change to the Saudi Government it is doing that to Venezuelan Government.
5) The USA is NOT trying to "steal" the Oil wealth from the people of Saudi Arabia - it is doing that to the people of Venezuela.

These things are overt and obvious to most and yet some are incredibly deluded about these comparative facts. They swallow whole what they are being told without a rational thought occurring in their heads.

They typically lack solid Principles, Morals, Ethics, Empathy, Wisdom and Accurate Complete Information imho. 

The US Government lies repeatedly. That is a fact. Why do people still believe what they say - even when it's Trump, Bolton, Pence and Pompeo doing the talking?

That is the big mystery answer!!!
« Last Edit: February 23, 2019, 07:15:24 AM by Lurk »

zizek

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Re: The Empire vs Venezuela - News and History
« Reply #44 on: February 23, 2019, 04:08:47 AM »
Saudi Arabia is not socialist. Same way the Nazi Germany was not socialist. A major tenet of socialism is the democratic ownership of the means of production. Even though the governments managed their economy to a significant degree, it was done so to benefit only a certain class.  Places like Saudi Arabia have an ethnic underclass that are treated in slave-like condition, and have absolutely no control of the outcomes of their labor.

When a government plays a strong role in managing it's economy, and uses violence to create a permanent underclass, then it is a fascist government.

In the case of Venezuela, it is a social democratic economy. The hilarious irony Cid complaining about socialism and boasting about the social democracy in Europe, is that Venezuela has a lower tax rate than places like Norway. The rich in Venezuala still control much of the countries resources and economic infrastructure. In fact, one of the major reasons for food crisis is that the wealthy still control much of the countries food distribution, and are uses their power to starve her citizens in the hope to oust Maduro. The funny thing is, had Maduro and Chavez actually ruled as authoritarians and seized private companies assets, they would likely have a better chance of distributing the food.

The thing about Venezuela is that Chavez committed the ultimate sin of nationalizing it's Oil resources. Which isn't atypical in the context of other western countries such as Norway or France. But the problem is that Venezuela did this in United States's playground for violence and terror - The Americas.

We could have an incredibly shallow discussion about socialism and capitalism with goofballs like Cid. But that would distract us from the real reasons Venezuela is in crisis. Is how the United States engages in economic warfare and uses illegal tactics to promote instability within Venezuela.

ASILurker

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Re: The Empire vs Venezuela - News and History
« Reply #45 on: February 23, 2019, 04:36:56 AM »
Saudi Arabia is not socialist.

Merely trying to emphasise the distortions of this word and how easily and how often it is manipulated by TPTB and the hoi polloi. Applying "their" standards for "socialism" to Saudi Arabia (imho) shows up the ludicrous illogical basis of their claims against Venezuela's Govt and all the Chavistas in the land.

I did say "totalitarian socialist" in order to emphasise my point. :)

Quote

 Is how the United States engages in economic warfare and uses illegal tactics to promote instability within Venezuela. 


Indeed. They are not the first they will not be the last while so many in the West keep swallowing the lies so readily. The Conditioning is Strong. The Emotional Triggers are red raw in some, with the Cognitive Dissonance overpowering.

ASILurker

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Re: The Empire vs Venezuela - News and History
« Reply #46 on: February 23, 2019, 04:52:26 AM »
Saudi Arabia is not socialist.

Merely trying to emphasise the distortions of this word and how easily and how often it is manipulated by TPTB and the hoi polloi. Applying "their" standards for "socialism" to Saudi Arabia (imho) shows up the ludicrous illogical basis of their claims against Venezuela's Govt and all the Chavistas in the land.

I did say "totalitarian socialist" in order to emphasise my point. :)

Quote

 Is how the United States engages in economic warfare and uses illegal tactics to promote instability within Venezuela. 


Indeed. They are not the first they will not be the last while so many in the West keep swallowing the lies so readily. The Conditioning is Strong. The Emotional Triggers are red raw in some, with the Cognitive Dissonance overpowering.

I did forget another comparison: Saudi Arabia murders Journalists. Chavez and Maduro do not.

El Cid

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Re: The Empire vs Venezuela - News and History
« Reply #47 on: February 23, 2019, 08:34:09 AM »
"For the record Venezuela is no less democratic socialist, no less a working Democracy with checks and balances operating under the Rule of Law as those in the bottom left of your graph ... Norway, Denmark, Finland, Australia, New Zealand, Canada, Germany, France, Spain, or Singapore. "

OMG. OMG. OMG.

Venezuela is a dictatorship (a lame one at that though). The reason they do not have food but have zillion percent inflation is their "21st century socialism". When the government regulates prices below the cost of production and people have no incentive to work, the result is a shortage and inflation. I am amazed. We tried this in Eastern Europe (also in Russia and China and Cuba and N.Korea) with the same results everywhere but people still do not learn. I am sorry to disturb your dilusions, I promise I won't do it anymore. Have you lived in a country like me, you wouldn't need those history lessons because you would have first hand experience. I promise to leave your thread to you and your brave fight against the Empire. viva la revolucion!

ASILurker

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Re: The Empire vs Venezuela - News and History
« Reply #48 on: February 23, 2019, 08:49:27 AM »
Pierre Omidyar’s Funding of Pro-Regime-Change Networks and Partnerships with CIA Cutouts
February 20th, 2019

"To [Omidyar] it’s … about … integrating things together to give technocrats, business executives and government officials a God’s-eye view of the world — to manage and control society more efficiently.” — Yasha Levine, author of “Surveillance Valley: The Military History of the Internet”
by Alexander Rubinstein and Max Blumenthal

https://www.mintpressnews.com/pierre-omidyar-funding-of-pro-regime-change-networks-and-partnerships-with-cia-cutouts/255337/ 




Ambassador Samantha Power: "And through his example, George has given definition to what it means to be a modern philanthropist, to be a doer, paving the way for Bill and Melinda Gates, Warren Buffet, Pam and Pierre Omidyar, and others. George was first."
http://web.archive.org/web/20160314205902/http://usun.state.gov/remarks/5869


How One of America’s Premier Data Monarchs is Funding a Global Information War and Shaping the Media Landscape
February 18th, 2019

Through his purchase of influence over the daily flow of information to American media consumers, a dizzying array of connections to the national security state, and a media empire that shields him from critical scrutiny, Pierre Omidyar has become one of the world’s most politically sophisticated data monarchs.
by Alexander Rubinstein and Max Blumenthal

https://www.mintpressnews.com/ebay-founder-pierre-omidyar-is-funding-a-global-media-information-war/255199/

ASILurker

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Re: The Empire vs Venezuela - News and History
« Reply #49 on: February 23, 2019, 10:17:45 AM »
"For the record Venezuela is no less democratic socialist, no less a working Democracy with checks and balances operating under the Rule of Law as those in the bottom left of your graph ... Norway, Denmark, Finland, Australia, New Zealand, Canada, Germany, France, Spain, or Singapore. "

OMG. OMG. OMG.

Venezuela is a dictatorship (a lame one at that though).
(sigh)

Quote
The reason they do not have food but have zillion percent inflation is their "21st century socialism". When the government regulates prices below the cost of production and people have no incentive to work, the result is a shortage and inflation.

Unfortunate for you the Venezuelan Government does not regulate prices.

Quote
I am amazed. We tried this in Eastern Europe (also in Russia and China and Cuba and N.Korea) with the same results everywhere but people still do not learn.

Unfortunately for you Venezuela is not the USSR,China, Cuba or North Korea.

Quote
I am sorry to disturb your dilusions, I promise I won't do it anymore.


Ah huh?

Quote
Have you lived in a country like me, you wouldn't need those history lessons because you would have first hand experience. I promise to leave your thread to you and your brave fight against the Empire. viva la revolucion!

I was thinking of my own experiences earlier today. I lived in a Gerrymandered State which for 27 years during the first half of my life elected a Government Party that was lucky to get 30% of the popular vote.  Eventually street marches were banned, protests were banned, and in at every election cycle the Premier and Govt ministers would trot out the usual rhetoric of "Reds under the Bed" and that "the Unions would be the death of us all."

Journalists and political activists or people who just could not stomach the lack of freedoms and the corruption any more were forced to move interstate or go overseas. Illegal Casinos and Brothels thrived thanks to the support of the Corrupt Police force who acted with immunity at all kinds of levels. Police Special Branch had a dossier on every "political threat" to the ruling Government of the day and they proceeded to use that for blackmail, threats and discrediting sources via the complicit news media who would willingly (or from threats) turn blind eye to the decades of fraud, corruption, graft and injustices going on. Or they framed them for crimes they never committed and got them thrown in Prison for years. Where their criminal accomplices would keep them in line or murder them if they were a real threat to the Power running the Parliament and the Police Force.

Money for special favours was delivered regularly to Government Ministers in "brown paper bags" to be put in a desk draw until they needed it for some other deal.

Are you talking about  these kinds of "history lessons"?
It went on for 27 years. My State was the laughing tock of the rest of the nation who both thought we were totally dumb halfwits and living 20 years ago in the past at least!

The Federal Government did nothing. The other States did nothing. No one in Europe or the USA was calling for a regime change despite what was patently obvious - ruled by an undemocratic Mafia network.

By the time it fell due to first a Media expose and people who literally risked their lives to be whistle blowers several of the Ministers and Police leadership ended up in Prison. The Premier almost did too but even the Jury at his criminal trial was able to be corrupted so he got off. It took more than a decade to clean out the garbage that had accumulated and I am referring to "people" in responsible positions in the Judiciary, the Police, Business, the Media, and the Public Service.

My father was one of those IDIOTS who kept voting for this Government every single election. He and millions of others should have, imho, also been Imprisoned too for at least a Year for being rank assholes, gullible fools, and callous morons. Sound familiar?

Oh where was that? Queensland Australia the late 1950s to August 1988.

They called it The Police State!

So if Chavez and Maduro are "dictators" then I will tell you this. They are the most incompetent Dictators ever to be put on the earth. They cannot even do the most simplest obvious things that a Dictator would put in place.
« Last Edit: February 23, 2019, 10:25:13 AM by Lurk »