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bligh8

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The health of the worlds Oceans
« on: November 12, 2013, 06:57:10 AM »
In the past environmental groups suggested, “nothing should go into the Oceans that did not come out of it.” In other words discharge pipes around the globe should filter down to 100%.

https://www.sciencenews.org/article/puny-plastic-particles-mar-lake-erie%E2%80%99s-waters

 Every out-fall pipe in the developed world does little or nothing the filter these tiny particles of plastic, although discussions about reverse osmosis filtering have been engaged, the expense of such an undertaking quickly removed this discussion to the “unreasonable bin”.  Waste treatment plants dotting the coast lines will reduce volume’s of sneakers, toys & dis-guarded plastic into tiny bits in seconds.

Within the Oceans there is no such thing as a reasonable amount of pollution.

 ‘There is six times as much plastic’s or polymers at or near Ocean surface water than there are krill. One study directly correlated ingested plastics with PCBs in the fat tissue of Puffins. The astonishing part was the amount. It was found that the plastic pellets eaten by the birds concentrated poisons to levels as high as 1 million times their normal occurrence in seawater.” Reduced to their smallest size even zoo-plankton may ingest this toxic garbage.

To illustrate the potential scale of the impact: in the North Pacific: at least 10% of lantern fish feeding on plankton in the upper water layers has plastic in their stomach.  This group of animals represents millions of tons of biomass. It cannot be excluded that this affects the role of vertically migrating fish in the biological carbon pump with unknown consequences for carbon dioxide transports and global climate.

http://www.orionmagazine.org/index.php/articles/article/270/

The Ocean acidification problem will fix itself or not. Plastics are relativity new in the scheme of things it’s only the last 50 yrs, well into the Industrial revolution that plastics were introduced into the equation.  I can still recall the BASF public relations advertising…”Solutions for a better life using plastic”  or something to that effect.

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Laurent

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Re: The health of the worlds Oceans
« Reply #1 on: November 12, 2013, 10:34:47 AM »
I have heard that 70% of the plasctic found in this "continents" are made of plastic from our clothes ! Passing directly from the washing machine to the sewer plant and the river !?
If true then...ouahhou we really should take care more than we do now !?

ggelsrinc

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Re: The health of the worlds Oceans
« Reply #2 on: November 12, 2013, 12:31:02 PM »
I use to work in a lab analyzing plastics, specifically to remove carcinogens, long ago. When I was given the project, the analytical methods were so sloppy, they couldn't tell if the carcinogen being examined was in the low 20s or high 70s parts per billion (ppb). I tuned up many HP5700 gas chromatographs and methods of analysis were I could consistently get a 56 ppb standard in plastic to round off to exactly 56 ppb. I was involved in migration studies, both oil and water based, communicated directly with chemical engineers to help solve the problems and thought I was doing good. I wasn't.

If someone wants to avoid harm to the environment or carcinogens in their food, don't allow either to have contact with plastics. Use glass and paper for food and wisdom in using plastic materials! That new car smell isn't a healthy smell.

When it comes to the health of our World's oceans, it's a simple as this. If you screw it up in any way, it's your job to fix it. The analytical methods to determine a cause are so simple and accurate that there is no excuse for making the problem. The problem isn't in the science to identify the cause, it's always been in the political will to fix what is screwed up. 

bligh8

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Re: The health of the worlds Oceans
« Reply #3 on: November 12, 2013, 12:37:51 PM »
I have heard that 70% of the plasctic found in this "continents" are made of plastic from our clothes ! Passing directly from the washing machine to the sewer plant and the river !?
If true then...ouahhou we really should take care more than we do now !?


We as a society are responsible for what we do, even grey water or water from household use is supposed to be filtered down to todays standards of 80% of solids (a rather unremarkable solution) sailing vessels are supposed to clean&treat grey water and the on board macerator
systems treating affluents do so to a finer degree than land based plants. That said....

Don't let em kid ya, the vast majority of this nonsense is from discarded trash. Still others find there way into water treatment plants, which do not have the capacity to filter out this garbage. Ideally this kind of trash should find it's way into recycling systems....even land fills would allow the sun to break down the plastics to a much better degree and they would be trapped and capped in land fills or better yet....burned and polished.

Pieces up to 5 millimeters across, or about as big as a BB gun pellets result when bigger pieces of plastic trash get battered by waves and baked by the sun, they break down into tiny bits. Researchers found that these micro plastics make up about 80 percent of total plastic samples collected.

Chemical analysis of the samples revealed varying levels of polycyclic aromatic hydrocarbons, or PAHs, and polychlorinated biphenyls, or PCBs. The bits of plastic, which are basically “solid oil,”  take up the pollutants like a sponge. It was found that the plastic pellets eaten by birds show concentrated poisons to levels as high as 1 million times their normal occurrence in seawater.

Starting in 1947 and for approximately 30 years, manufacturing plants operated by General Electric Company (GE) discharged PCBs into the upper Hudson River, with additional releases of PCBs occurring as well.

PCBs are a "group of highly toxic compounds that are known to cause cancer, birth defects, reproductive dysfunction, growth impairment, behavioral changes, hormonal imbalances, damage to the developing brain, and increased susceptibility to disease in animals." Hazardous at even very low levels, they make their way up the food chain and become stored in the tissues of wildlife and fish, posing a health threat if people consume them.

Every striped Bass and other spices of fish migrating from the Hudson to the open Ocean is heavily tainted with pcb's.  All migrating fish across the Hudson valley East the to the continental shelf are exposed to this hazard. The continental shelf, about one hundred miles East of the shore line is a breeding ground for many of the Oceans kritters.....from lobsters to tiny fish, much happens along this shelf where water depths change from about 600 ft to 8000 ft rather quickly.

bligh8

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Re: The health of the worlds Oceans
« Reply #4 on: November 12, 2013, 01:03:16 PM »

"When it comes to the health of our World's oceans, it's a simple as this. If you screw it up in any way, it's your job to fix it. The analytical methods to determine a cause are so simple and accurate that there is no excuse for making the problem. The problem isn't in the science to identify the cause, it's always been in the political will to fix what is screwed up."

Strue even so with the co2 and Ocean acidification. The solution is obvious and obtainable, today at a much smaller price than tomorrow. The problem with Oceans & plastics are not so easily solved, whats there, is going to be there in all likelihood.. forever. Our dependency on the worlds Oceans for food combined with a decreasing food supply do to gw I would think, exacerbate the problems we face concerning disease and famine.

JimD

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Re: The health of the worlds Oceans
« Reply #5 on: November 12, 2013, 04:13:49 PM »
Cross posted from the thread Climate change, the ocean, agriculture, and FOOD as it seemed to fit here so well.


The Devolution of the Seas
 
The Consequences of Oceanic Destruction

http://www.foreignaffairs.com/articles/140164/alan-b-sielen/the-devolution-of-the-seas



We do not err because truth is difficult to see. It is visible at a glance. We err because this is more comfortable. Alexander Solzhenitsyn

How is it conceivable that all our technological progress - our very civilization - is like the axe in the hand of the pathological criminal? Albert Einstein

JimD

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Re: The health of the worlds Oceans
« Reply #6 on: November 12, 2013, 04:19:48 PM »
Another interesting note about plastic particle in large bodies of water.  It is not just the oceans.

Tiny Plastic Beads Are Invading The Great Lakes.

Quote
..Now, a new study provides evidence of the microplastics in the world's largest surface freshwater source ..
...We found high concentrations of micro-plastics, more than most ocean samples collected worldwide, ....

Quote
Abstract

Neuston samples were collected at 21 stations during an ∼700 nautical mile (∼1300 km) expedition in July 2012 in the Laurentian Great Lakes of the United States using a 333 μm mesh manta trawl and analyzed for plastic debris. Although the average abundance was approximately 43,000 microplastic particles/km2, station 20, downstream from two major cities, contained over 466,000 particles/km2, greater than all other stations combined. SEM analysis determined nearly 20% of particles less than 1 mm, which were initially identified as microplastic by visual observation, were aluminum silicate from coal ash. Many microplastic particles were multi-colored spheres, which were compared to, and are suspected to be, microbeads from consumer products containing microplastic particles of similar size, shape, texture and composition. The presence of microplastics and coal ash in these surface samples, which were most abundant where lake currents converge, are likely from nearby urban effluent and coal burning power plants.

http://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0025326X13006097


http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2013/10/30/great-lakes-microbeads_n_4178363.html
We do not err because truth is difficult to see. It is visible at a glance. We err because this is more comfortable. Alexander Solzhenitsyn

How is it conceivable that all our technological progress - our very civilization - is like the axe in the hand of the pathological criminal? Albert Einstein

ggelsrinc

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Re: The health of the worlds Oceans
« Reply #7 on: November 12, 2013, 05:07:34 PM »

"When it comes to the health of our World's oceans, it's a simple as this. If you screw it up in any way, it's your job to fix it. The analytical methods to determine a cause are so simple and accurate that there is no excuse for making the problem. The problem isn't in the science to identify the cause, it's always been in the political will to fix what is screwed up."

Strue even so with the co2 and Ocean acidification. The solution is obvious and obtainable, today at a much smaller price than tomorrow. The problem with Oceans & plastics are not so easily solved, whats there, is going to be there in all likelihood.. forever. Our dependency on the worlds Oceans for food combined with a decreasing food supply do to gw I would think, exacerbate the problems we face concerning disease and famine.

When it comes to health in general, consider this story, based on fact. I can remember what PCBs even smell like, because they were applied to electrical equipment I examined as a child. Around mid January, 1974, I left the service and quickly got a job at the Hercules Research Center, in what they called the Control Lab. It was just a lab doing instrumental analysis to support what was called phase III chemical production. At that time, the average lifespan of an Organic Chemists was about 10 years less than the average American. A methane molecule CH4 has four locations where a chlorine atom can replace the hydrogen. Methylene chloride/Dichloromethane with two chlorine atoms was a very popular solvent with ether like properties. It like benzene flowed in labs during that time without even a warning of possible danger.

With the knowledge available at the time, I wondered why does one chlorine atom, three chlorine atoms and four chlorine atoms added to the methane structure produce carcinogens, but two chlorine atoms doesn't.

It turned out methylene chloride was a very popular way to decaffeinate coffee, besides being a very popular laboratory and industrial solvent, because it was cheap to make. More shocking than that was my investigation of why scientists working for our government would allow such a thing to happen. I soon learned the toxicity standards for chemicals were industrial and not of governmental design. There were no checks and balances, the chemical industry regulated itself.     

bligh8

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Re: The health of the worlds Oceans
« Reply #8 on: November 12, 2013, 08:11:32 PM »
Another interesting note about plastic particle in large bodies of water.  It is not just the oceans.

Tiny Plastic Beads Are Invading The Great Lakes.

Quote
..Now, a new study provides evidence of the microplastics in the world's largest surface freshwater source ..
...We found high concentrations of micro-plastics, more than most ocean samples collected worldwide, ....

Quote
Abstract


Neuston samples were collected at 21 stations during an ∼700 nautical mile (∼1300 km) expedition in July 2012 in the Laurentian Great Lakes of the United States using a 333 μm mesh manta trawl and analyzed for plastic debris. Although the average abundance was approximately 43,000 microplastic particles/km2, station 20, downstream from two major cities, contained over 466,000 particles/km2, greater than all other stations combined. SEM analysis determined nearly 20% of particles less than 1 mm, which were initially identified as microplastic by visual observation, were aluminum silicate from coal ash. Many microplastic particles were multi-colored spheres, which were compared to, and are suspected to be, microbeads from consumer products containing microplastic particles of similar size, shape, texture and composition. The presence of microplastics and coal ash in these surface samples, which were most abundant where lake currents converge, are likely from nearby urban effluent and coal burning power plants.

http://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0025326X13006097


http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2013/10/30/great-lakes-microbeads_n_4178363.html


I read that report with some interest, apparently lake erie was in a particular bad condition, being downstream from the others and shallower(that remark was based on boyhood knowledge) as a child I swam in those lakes ..brrrrr..and camped along the shore line.  Those same conditions are reflected nearly everywhere.

Another source of these micro plastics or so I've read is body scrubs...Which may draw a correlation to the downstream readings from the two large cities being substantially higher. Those everyday products that consumers use when they shower...there are many consumers based products containing micro scrubbing particles which are highly advertised to a specific consumer base.

An exception to all of this may be the single largest lake in the world, lake caspain in Russia. I've read about petrochemical pollution flowing in from the Volga river and others, but nothing close to the plastics were finding in the great lakes.



bligh8

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Re: The health of the worlds Oceans
« Reply #9 on: November 12, 2013, 08:34:58 PM »

"When it comes to the health of our World's oceans, it's a simple as this. If you screw it up in any way, it's your job to fix it. The analytical methods to determine a cause are so simple and accurate that there is no excuse for making the problem. The problem isn't in the science to identify the cause, it's always been in the political will to fix what is screwed up."

Strue even so with the co2 and Ocean acidification. The solution is obvious and obtainable, today at a much smaller price than tomorrow. The problem with Oceans & plastics are not so easily solved, whats there, is going to be there in all likelihood.. forever. Our dependency on the worlds Oceans for food combined with a decreasing food supply do to gw I would think, exacerbate the problems we face concerning disease and famine.

When it comes to health in general, consider this story, based on fact. I can remember what PCBs even smell like, because they were applied to electrical equipment I examined as a child. Around mid January, 1974, I left the service and quickly got a job at the Hercules Research Center, in what they called the Control Lab. It was just a lab doing instrumental analysis to support what was called phase III chemical production. At that time, the average lifespan of an Organic Chemists was about 10 years less than the average American. A methane molecule CH4 has four locations where a chlorine atom can replace the hydrogen. Methylene chloride/Dichloromethane with two chlorine atoms was a very popular solvent with ether like properties. It like benzene flowed in labs during that time without even a warning of possible danger.

With the knowledge available at the time, I wondered why does one chlorine atom, three chlorine atoms and four chlorine atoms added to the methane structure produce carcinogens, but two chlorine atoms doesn't.

It turned out methylene chloride was a very popular way to decaffeinate coffee, besides being a very popular laboratory and industrial solvent, because it was cheap to make. More shocking than that was my investigation of why scientists working for our government would allow such a thing to happen. I soon learned the toxicity standards for chemicals were industrial and not of governmental design. There were no checks and balances, the chemical industry regulated itself.   

I worked with dichlor and a trichlor solvents for a short time while I was with IBM, they issued that junk to their techs servicing IBM products. One, just one wiff of that sweet smelling chemical set off some alarm bells and I refused to use it.  Some years later there was a class action suit by IBM employees suffering from kidney and liver failures from it's use. IBM used those solvents in many arenas...from the cleansing of hard disk drives to simple maintenance of high speed mechanical applications. They were handing that stuff out by the gallon. I worked out of a class 2 branch office in Fairfield and caught some flack for non-conformity issues resulting from my refusals to use it. Swhy I never worked well within the framework of a corporate structured environment and have been self employed for 25 years. Did I say self employed??? I meant self impoverished.

bligh8

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Re: The health of the worlds Oceans
« Reply #10 on: November 13, 2013, 04:25:00 AM »
The BP oil spill has sent millions of barrels gushing into the Gulf of Mexico, focusing international attention on America’s third coast and prompting questions about whether it will ever fully recover from the spill.
Now that the oil on the surface appears to be dissipating, the notion of a recovery from the spill, repeated by politicians, strikes some here as short sighted. The gulf had been suffering for decades before the explosion of the Deepwater Horizon rig on April 20.
 There are around 4,000 offshore oil and gas platforms and tens of thousands of miles of pipeline in the central and western Gulf of Mexico, where 90 percent of the country’s offshore drilling takes place. But like no other American body of water, the gulf bears the environmental consequences of the country’s economic pursuits and appetites, including oil and corn.
Runoff and waste from cornfields, sewage plants, golf courses and oil-stained parking lots drain into the Mississippi River from vast swaths of the United States, and then flow down to the gulf, creating a zone of lifeless water the size of Lake Ontario just off the coast of Louisiana. These lifeless bodies of water exist across every Ocean in the world caused by much the same as in the Gulf. That man-made area of dead water, called a hypoxic zone, is second in size only to a similar zone in the Baltic Sea. And its source, for the most part, is in states hundreds of miles from the gulf.

http://www.nytimes.com/2010/07/30/us/30gulf.html?pagewanted=all&_r=0

Dispersals were being used in the BP oil spill to reduce the chance that the surface oil slick would reach shoreline habitats like marshes and mangroves or come into contact with animals at the surface. However, by mixing the oil below the water surface, dispersants increase the exposure of a wide array of marine life in the water and on the ocean floor to the spilled oil. Dispersants also decrease the ability to skim or absorb oil from the ocean surface. More dispersant was used on the BP spill than in any other oil spill in U.S. history. Moreover, for the first time ever, the EPA approved using dispersants not only at the surface but deep underwater at the source of the spill. Approximately 1.84 million gallons of dispersant were applied, with more than 1 million gallons on the surface and 771,000 gallons pumped deep into the water column to dilute the oil.
The effects of the dispersants are not well understood and are toxic in nature.

http://www.biologicaldiversity.org/programs/public_lands/energy/dirty_energy_development/oil_and_gas/gulf_oil_spill/dispersants.html

The deep water Horizon event was the largest in US history and the second largest in World history.
There are considerations now taking place to drill for oil in the Arctic, now that there are more Ice free zones. Corporations and governments are scrambling to claim drilling rights to these waters.

ggelsrinc

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Re: The health of the worlds Oceans
« Reply #11 on: November 14, 2013, 11:04:12 AM »
The health of the oceans is the health of the planet. Just about anything we do on the land, eventually finds itself in our oceans and we do some stupid things. There are about one toxic waste site for every 300 Americans and three quarters of our nuclear reactors have tritium leaks confirmed. Our environmental statement is a joke, because people evolve faster than a buffalo's behind EPA can live up to it's name.

I'd suspect the BP oil spill for problems in the Atlantic, based on my limited knowledge of ocean currents and dispersants, so I would think it would be checked by now. Those toxic materials in the pipeline from land and atmospheric sources aren't something I would suspect to be the immediate culprit. That kind of pollution works slowly.

« Last Edit: November 14, 2013, 11:37:01 AM by ggelsrinc »

bligh8

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Re: The health of the worlds Oceans
« Reply #12 on: November 14, 2013, 12:14:10 PM »
"The health of the Oceans is the Health of the planet" 

You Sir are correct....we do some incredibly stupid things that are just not necessary.  Looking into the problem of micro plastics found in the great lakes and the oceans produced some typical results.
Some of the better waste water systems we use here in this country are two tiered systems and even those could not say rather or not those micro plastics are filtered out. There are folks working on that problem ...ie "So we started asking questions. We talked to Proctor and Gamble’s sustainability VP and he couldn't answer whether the beads in his product were getting through treatment. We asked wastewater managers whether they were getting through and they had no idea either. Essentially, we’re looking at a plastic product with absolutely no recovery plan which is exactly why we’re targeting this product for elimination. Unilever, another big player in the personal care product market announced that they’d suspend the usage of micro-beads in their products by 2015. We’re asking Proctor and Gamble and Johnson and Johnson to do the same.

http://5gyres.org/posts/2013/04/16/do_plastic_micro_beads_from_facial_scrubbers_escape_sewage_treatment/

The Gulf Coast, our third coast,  is in exceptionally bad shape. Not just from the oil, but runoff from many states that include agro products. Here in Jersey there was legislation introduced two years ago to curb agro product usage. By the time the bill was passed it had become so watered down(from product manufacturers and companies dependent on it.) that it was useless.

The Oceans gyre circulates clockwise through the gulf, passes through the straits of Florida and joins the Gulf Stream, although there are many factors that influence the seasonal transition of flow, it seems the general premise. Your thoughts about the oil reaching the East Coast are valid
and could effect the continental shelf estuaries and coral reef systems off Florida for years.




ggelsrinc

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Re: The health of the worlds Oceans
« Reply #13 on: November 14, 2013, 03:55:15 PM »
Bligh, I think the best solution for pollution in our area involves using Marine Science and growing bivalvia, good "plants" that are good for removing pollution and stopping pollution at it's source. A moratorium on menhaden harvest, wouldn't hurt also. There's a whole list of must changes needed to consider. The mistakes of the pasts aren't going through the food chain quickly and solutions like if you messed it up, you fix it are required. Toss in a little ag runoff solutions and let's get started fixing our Earth, instead of handing out licenses to screw it up! It isn't just the Oceans, ASI or anything belonging to humanity that needs to be addressed. If someone made their living screwing up our environment, what is wrong with governments cooperating by presenting a bill for their damage before family fortunes are passed along to the next generation? 

Polynya88

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Re: The health of the worlds Oceans
« Reply #14 on: November 14, 2013, 05:05:44 PM »
The BP oil spill has sent millions of barrels gushing into the Gulf of Mexico, focusing international attention on America’s third coast and prompting questions about whether it will ever fully recover from the spill.
Now that the oil on the surface appears to be dissipating, the notion of a recovery from the spill, repeated by politicians, strikes some here as short sighted. The gulf had been suffering for decades before the explosion of the Deepwater Horizon rig on April 20.
 There are around 4,000 offshore oil and gas platforms and tens of thousands of miles of pipeline in the central and western Gulf of Mexico, where 90 percent of the country’s offshore drilling takes place. But like no other American body of water, the gulf bears the environmental consequences of the country’s economic pursuits and appetites, including oil and corn.
Runoff and waste from cornfields, sewage plants, golf courses and oil-stained parking lots drain into the Mississippi River from vast swaths of the United States, and then flow down to the gulf, creating a zone of lifeless water the size of Lake Ontario just off the coast of Louisiana. These lifeless bodies of water exist across every Ocean in the world caused by much the same as in the Gulf. That man-made area of dead water, called a hypoxic zone, is second in size only to a similar zone in the Baltic Sea. And its source, for the most part, is in states hundreds of miles from the gulf.

http://www.nytimes.com/2010/07/30/us/30gulf.html?pagewanted=all&_r=0

Dispersals were being used in the BP oil spill to reduce the chance that the surface oil slick would reach shoreline habitats like marshes and mangroves or come into contact with animals at the surface. However, by mixing the oil below the water surface, dispersants increase the exposure of a wide array of marine life in the water and on the ocean floor to the spilled oil. Dispersants also decrease the ability to skim or absorb oil from the ocean surface. More dispersant was used on the BP spill than in any other oil spill in U.S. history. Moreover, for the first time ever, the EPA approved using dispersants not only at the surface but deep underwater at the source of the spill. Approximately 1.84 million gallons of dispersant were applied, with more than 1 million gallons on the surface and 771,000 gallons pumped deep into the water column to dilute the oil.
The effects of the dispersants are not well understood and are toxic in nature.

http://www.biologicaldiversity.org/programs/public_lands/energy/dirty_energy_development/oil_and_gas/gulf_oil_spill/dispersants.html

The deep water Horizon event was the largest in US history and the second largest in World history.
There are considerations now taking place to drill for oil in the Arctic, now that there are more Ice free zones. Corporations and governments are scrambling to claim drilling rights to these waters.

Although the Deepwater Horizon incident was all bad, one must remember that thousands of barrels of oil are dumped into the Gulf of Mexico every day by nature - has for thousands of years. Oil in the ocean isn't unusual, or extreme, or catastrophic, it is the high concentrations in certain locations that are an issue.  The current challenge is to reduce concentrations of oil in the ocean to historic levels (dilute or disperse it) so that the natural ocean processes that have always handled the oil can deal with it.  Don't take my word for it, here is a good supporting article:

 http://oils.gpa.unep.org/facts/natural-sources.htm

ggelsrinc

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Re: The health of the worlds Oceans
« Reply #15 on: November 14, 2013, 06:45:25 PM »
The BP oil spill has sent millions of barrels gushing into the Gulf of Mexico, focusing international attention on America’s third coast and prompting questions about whether it will ever fully recover from the spill.
Now that the oil on the surface appears to be dissipating, the notion of a recovery from the spill, repeated by politicians, strikes some here as short sighted. The gulf had been suffering for decades before the explosion of the Deepwater Horizon rig on April 20.
 There are around 4,000 offshore oil and gas platforms and tens of thousands of miles of pipeline in the central and western Gulf of Mexico, where 90 percent of the country’s offshore drilling takes place. But like no other American body of water, the gulf bears the environmental consequences of the country’s economic pursuits and appetites, including oil and corn.
Runoff and waste from cornfields, sewage plants, golf courses and oil-stained parking lots drain into the Mississippi River from vast swaths of the United States, and then flow down to the gulf, creating a zone of lifeless water the size of Lake Ontario just off the coast of Louisiana. These lifeless bodies of water exist across every Ocean in the world caused by much the same as in the Gulf. That man-made area of dead water, called a hypoxic zone, is second in size only to a similar zone in the Baltic Sea. And its source, for the most part, is in states hundreds of miles from the gulf.

http://www.nytimes.com/2010/07/30/us/30gulf.html?pagewanted=all&_r=0

Dispersals were being used in the BP oil spill to reduce the chance that the surface oil slick would reach shoreline habitats like marshes and mangroves or come into contact with animals at the surface. However, by mixing the oil below the water surface, dispersants increase the exposure of a wide array of marine life in the water and on the ocean floor to the spilled oil. Dispersants also decrease the ability to skim or absorb oil from the ocean surface. More dispersant was used on the BP spill than in any other oil spill in U.S. history. Moreover, for the first time ever, the EPA approved using dispersants not only at the surface but deep underwater at the source of the spill. Approximately 1.84 million gallons of dispersant were applied, with more than 1 million gallons on the surface and 771,000 gallons pumped deep into the water column to dilute the oil.
The effects of the dispersants are not well understood and are toxic in nature.

http://www.biologicaldiversity.org/programs/public_lands/energy/dirty_energy_development/oil_and_gas/gulf_oil_spill/dispersants.html

The deep water Horizon event was the largest in US history and the second largest in World history.
There are considerations now taking place to drill for oil in the Arctic, now that there are more Ice free zones. Corporations and governments are scrambling to claim drilling rights to these waters.

Although the Deepwater Horizon incident was all bad, one must remember that thousands of barrels of oil are dumped into the Gulf of Mexico every day by nature - has for thousands of years. Oil in the ocean isn't unusual, or extreme, or catastrophic, it is the high concentrations in certain locations that are an issue.  The current challenge is to reduce concentrations of oil in the ocean to historic levels (dilute or disperse it) so that the natural ocean processes that have always handled the oil can deal with it.  Don't take my word for it, here is a good supporting article:

 http://oils.gpa.unep.org/facts/natural-sources.htm

There is a factor called the rate of change. A tar ball found on a beach can be traced to the source. The chemical signature in petroleum is so strong that it will identify where the crude oil originated, down to the very well, if producing enough crude to keep data about it and how that crude may have been blended with other producing wells.

bligh8

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Re: The health of the worlds Oceans
« Reply #16 on: November 14, 2013, 07:45:17 PM »
Wow, excellent....source it out, we'll hunt em down & string em up! Wait!!! I think the NSA is at my door!

ggelsrinc

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Re: The health of the worlds Oceans
« Reply #17 on: November 14, 2013, 11:08:24 PM »
Wow, excellent....source it out, we'll hunt em down & string em up! Wait!!! I think the NSA is at my door!

The Feds know there is nothing new about this, so they must be looking for you for another reason. They use that analysis all the time to track crude to it's sources around the world. We've been using it to track the tar balls from that 1969 Santa Barbara oil spill to distinguish tar balls coming from the spill from natural seep tar balls.

The modern conservation history in the US was started by pictures of sea otters dying in crude oil and a river catching fire again. It still took years to get legislation enacted to claim it would protect the environment.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Santa_Barbara_oil_spill

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/River_fire#Environmental_concerns





https://www.google.com/search?hl=en&site=imghp&tbm=isch&source=hp&biw=1280&bih=627&q=cuyahoga+river+fire&oq=Cuyahoga+River+fi&gs_l=img.1.0.0l7j0i5l2j0i24.1090.1904.0.6448.3.3.0.0.0.0.651.1178.1j4-1j1.3.0....0...1ac.1.31.img..1.2.527.OmE4Q3fXScc#facrc=_&imgdii=_&imgrc=IPhwMMag_5to8M%3A%3BQ0puTa41ETqTCM%3Bhttp%253A%252F%252Fcelebrating200years.noaa.gov%252Fevents%252Fearthday%252Fcuyahoga_fire650.jpg%3Bhttp%253A%252F%252Fcelebrating200years.noaa.gov%252Fevents%252Fearthday%252Fcuyohoga_fire.html%3B480%3B343

 

https://www.google.com/search?hl=en&site=imghp&tbm=isch&source=hp&biw=1280&bih=627&q=cuyahoga+river+fire&oq=Cuyahoga+River+fi&gs_l=img.1.0.0l7j0i5l2j0i24.1090.1904.0.6448.3.3.0.0.0.0.651.1178.1j4-1j1.3.0....0...1ac.1.31.img..1.2.527.OmE4Q3fXScc#hl=en&q=1969+santa+barbara+oil+spill&tbm=isch&facrc=_&imgdii=_&imgrc=WeC_CkcJE4OzYM%3A%3B4mrWsWAPQvIXJM%3Bhttp%253A%252F%252Fimages.huffingtonpost.com%252Fgen%252F30080%252Foriginal.jpg%3Bhttp%253A%252F%252Fwww.huffingtonpost.com%252F2008%252F07%252F14%252Fthe-santa-barbara-oil-spi_n_112605.html%3B400%3B300

bligh8

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Re: The health of the worlds Oceans
« Reply #18 on: November 15, 2013, 01:39:30 AM »
Thanks You Sir, an excellent post.  I, to a point, was aware of these events, but the fine detail provided within your links brought further clarity to these issues. I found the following remark by a public official surrounding the 1969 Santa Barbra spill both typical and offensive.

"Hartley defended Union's record and denied that the event was a disaster: "I don't like to call it a disaster, because there has been no loss of human life. I am amazed at the publicity for the loss of a few birds"

Of course it was a lot more than the loss of a few birds, however the one positive note was the enactment of environmental protection legislation and the insurgents of environmental protection organizations....ie..the membership of the Sierra Club doubled within a short time.

The Cuyahoga river fire was a well publicized event that I remember well. Perhaps it was the cover picture on time magazine I remember. That picture was from the 1952 event as there are no know pictures from the 69 fire.  This event also sparked public outrage and their has been a somewhat successful effort to clean up the river since the last incident in 1969.

I've been surfing around the EPA'S superfund site awhile for region 2 and found the devastation along the NY Hudson river just incredible. This tid-bet holds especially strong interest for me as the Hudson flows unimpeded through NY harbor creating the Hudson Valley commonly referred to as the mud hole extending east to the continental shelf.  This site (the mude hole) was used for Ocean dumping of all kinds of trash and industry waste up to about 15 or so yrs ago.

I held a state license for lobster fishing along the coast and found the degradation of the water quality alarming.  The WTC was not connected to waste water treatment facilities and dumped 2 million gallons of sewage directly in the lower reaches on NY harbor daily. This of course has changed as joint government efforts to improve water quality that ultimately effects tourism along the Jersey shore.






ggelsrinc

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Re: The health of the worlds Oceans
« Reply #19 on: November 15, 2013, 02:12:05 AM »
Bligh, please don't call me sir! I'm just a human being seeing my world as I see it and hoping I see it correctly. We're neighbors and I don't want anything from Delaware messing with New Jersey, though I know it has. I spent some of my life in chemistry and walked away from that destruction.

I remember my older brother calling me on the phone and asking me how to sell mercury. He was building a containment area and they were filling soda bottles with mercury. The area was located near the Delaware River and once had Hooker cells. The area had marshes all around it, which is common for transporting materials. I wasn't doing anyone a favor fishing and giving fish to people who wanted them in my fishing days.

The horror stories involved in chemistry are way beyond the concept of your thread. The things we have done around every state bordering Delaware and the rest of our world is enormous.

bligh8

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Re: The health of the worlds Oceans
« Reply #20 on: November 15, 2013, 06:49:25 AM »
I picked up on the chemistry thing right-off your knowledge of the molecular structure of discussed compounds was a dead giveaway.  I can understand you walking away, the warning on the cans of the chemicals I've used over the years hardly supports the dangers.

We sure have maid a mess of things and yet so much natural beauty remains...one day I'll take a look at how to post pictures and graphs on this site ... truly beautiful stuff.

One of the first things I did after purchasing Horizon, having already studied enormous amounts of information required of a circumnavigator, was to attend a gathering of sister ships like mine at a marina in Annapolis.  Walking down the docks talking with different folks about characteristics of their vessels and various experiences while sailing, I meant a man, a doctor who had sailed from the Upper Peninsula of Michigan to attend this rally. We sat and talked for hours aboard his vessel and I gained valuable bits of this and that. He had circumnavigated, sailed to Antarctica, the canals of Europe, and generally speaking every ware else one might sail on the Globe.
He shared many things, all to my advantage, had I not done this, had I not learned from this man, my first circumnavigation would have been much different. He shared openly and honestly in a friendly manner…a old school gentleman he was. When I was leaving I called him Sir, he chuckled and replied that’s not necessary,  no I said, but you’ve earned it.

Anyway, I’m attending a meeting Dec.4 of the DRBC where Carol Collier will be speaking about her new plan to allow initiatives concerning Fracking within the DRB. She is retiring in March so I guess she’ll be going out on a low note. I’ll be with a collation of concerned citizens, voicing there opposition to her new plan……wanna go? The location of the meeting has not yet been announced; so much will depend on that.

It seems the fossil fuel industry has installed a new fracking pipe up within the halls of congress, instead of spewing out gas, it’s spewing out money.








Money…..it’s a gas      Pink Floyd


bligh8

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Re: The health of the worlds Oceans
« Reply #21 on: November 15, 2013, 02:48:43 PM »
Hundreds of sea turtles are washing up dead on the beaches of Central America and scientists don’t know why. One hypothesis is that the killer is a potent neurotoxin that can be produced by algae during red tides, what’s puzzling is red tides have come and gone before without killing turtles. In El Salvador, for instance, from late September to the middle of October, 114 sea turtles were discovered dead on Pacific coast Scientists throughout Central America are alarmed.  The death toll elsewhere is high, 115 so far this year in Guatemala, 280 in Costa Rica and an undisclosed number in Nicaragua. Another 200 died in late 2012 in Panama. And in Nicaragua there is yet another problem: turtles showed up weeks late, at the end of September, to crawl up onto the beach and lay their eggs.  In one area of El Salvador’s coast, dogs that started eating dead turtles stopped breathing and died almost instantly.  In September scientists in Honduras said turtles on one beach laid 40 per cent fewer eggs.

http://enenews.com/scientists-alarmed-hundreds-sea-turtles-discovered-dead-pacific-coast-dogs-stopped-breathing-died-almost-instantly-when-eating-biologists

Fishermen and maritime tour operators in the Guanacaste province found more than 40 dead sea turtles on Tuesday, November 5th, and immediately alerted nature conservation officials. Marine biologists are still looking into the possible causes for these massive deaths, which extend throughout the Pacific coast of Central America.  They may have run into nets and fishing hooks. They also present signs of concussions near their skulls. Still, researchers are conducting pathological analyses to rule out toxicity. Researchers in Costa Rica, however, are leaning towards a neurological syndrome
The fishing nets referred to in the above articles are in some places near the coast as much as 15 miles long. One night, in light air, about 100 miles off the coast of Ecuador my generator which is driven by a toed line&prop assembly was nearly ripped from the boat, only a steel safety line prevented the lose.  The fishing net was huge, with a interlaced mesh of nearly a half inch rope. The nearest vessel that I could see was identified by a faint glow of lights just over the Horizon. These nets should be, and at times are, marked by a string of strobe lights warning mariners of their positions.
I’m a little doubtful about the dog’s eating the contaminated turtles, as I have seen dogs shy away from contaminated predatory fish who have digested Ciguatera contaminated fish. Across the South Pacific many locals use dogs to test their locally caught tuna before eating them.

ggelsrinc

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Re: The health of the worlds Oceans
« Reply #22 on: November 15, 2013, 07:34:17 PM »
Is there evidence these events can be statistically tied to Deep Horizon or some other likely cause? I'd expect the fallout from Deep Horizon to last for years, but wouldn't change my boats name for it.

As far as the DRBC is concerned, what can I tell them they shouldn't have known as a child? The DRB is a chemical sewer amongst other things. The first lab I worked in had a porch in back that resembled a dock and below it was a tank farm, located on Red Clay Creek. Every year or so that place would flood and the area used for chemical development was obviously a flood plain. I can remember walking the road to get to the lab and noticing the asphalt was converted to stone in an area, next to the lab. They had a benzene leak which washed away all the tar, leaving just clean stone. They were quick to fix it, of course (just meaning the road), but did they fix the consequences? Just how do you clean up a spill like that in a flood plain, even if they tried?

That control lab was designed to do chemical analysis on various projects scaled up to do what was called Phase III production. What that means is products are produced in enough bulk to determine marketability and production problems were worked out on scale, before final plant design, sometimes continuous operation and sometimes batch.

Another memorable moment happened being alone during a night shift, when I noticed an odor familiar from my high school days. I looked down and noticed a red smoke coming out of the floor drains. I knew at the first smell it was bromine and how it was heavier than air. It turned out a chemical operator emptied the contents of a reactor into 55 gallon drums during the bromination/dehydrobromination process and once it ate through that metal and was noticed, he used a fire hose to wash it away. That operation was across the road in a relatively new construction.

Based on a story by a senior chemical operator, the building was new, because a similar building prior to it blew up sending large chucks of concrete many miles away in a parking lot. The gentlemen was having lunch with us and told us the story about his early years as a chemical operator. He was thanking God no one was killed, because they left the building to have lunch when it happened. He told us about what he did that day and how he started shaking the next day when he reported to work. He broke down the next day and wondered if he should live his life that way, meaning working with chemicals. I should have given him better respect at that time.

People like me don't respond to fear the way a normal person should. I've lived my life in so many ways to make a living for my family, that I don't have personal fear and I am not reckless. If I have any fear left in me, it's the fear of hurting another person or our world, even if done without knowing I am doing it.

Thanks for the info on the DRBC hearing, Neighbor! 

   


bligh8

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Re: The health of the worlds Oceans
« Reply #23 on: November 16, 2013, 07:22:13 AM »
Changing the name of a vessel is considered bad luck and to a degree one needs luck out there amongst the waves.  I might imagine the conditions you described are repeated time and time again in the industrial complexes along the bay.

Mentally, and I’m not sure why, I confuse the lower Delaware Bay with the river north by the gap where I camped and swam 35yrs ago, which is still a beautiful place & seems  an entirely different world. Transiting the Bay northwest inbound from the Atlantic is a chemical waste land where I’ve watched my ships compass spin like a whirling dervish as I make past Baker Shoal towards Reedy Island and the Salem nuclear facility there. Never have I sailed north past the C&D canal towards New Castle and Philadelphia, where the shoreline is dotted with one industrial facility after the next.

I’ve seen that bay on an incoming tide and a strong north west breeze create conditions in the shallow waters that might give one religion.  Within the confines of the narrow shipping channel with shoals and rocks on both sides, crowded with heavy commerce & low visibility, I've counted myself lucky on the list of fate more than once.

My vessel was designed and built for off shore sailing, she is an uncompromising blue water pocket cruiser. However, with a positive range of stability nearing 220 degrees, it’s best to keep her on her feet.  Her displacement/length ratio is close to 390, an unbelievable figure in modern day vessel design. (that number indicates how sturdy she was built). A fact that I have been grateful for as bearing witness to the violence within an Ocean storm has proven to me how tough she really is.

They say it’s the ships crew who give way before the vessel, either mentally or physically, this has been evidenced to me sailing across the roaring forties in the Southern hemisphere in very heavy weather, the motion within the vessel is violent in the extreme. Where one cannot lye down to rest, even wedged between sail bags one’s inner organs get beat up pounding against the outer bone structure. Standing and allowing movement is the most comfortable solution, but one cannot stand for 15 straight days.

During an event like this, surfing down giant waves in the Southern Indian Ocean I was on deck “looking” and caught movement to starboard as a large torpedo shaped fish exploded from the front of a wave and plunged into the trough at the same time Horizon arrived there, this impossible scene repeated time and time again. All in force 11 conditions. I watched in amazement while these beautiful creatures “played” with my vessel.. I did not feel fear and never have I felt more alive.

ggelsrinc

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Re: The health of the worlds Oceans
« Reply #24 on: November 16, 2013, 08:15:35 AM »


Better words than mine!

I spent a good bit of my life along the C&D canal and all those chemical and oil refineries that dot the shore. The best time was:



I never joined the Navy, like my dad and older brother. I joined the Marines.

« Last Edit: November 16, 2013, 08:54:54 AM by ggelsrinc »

bligh8

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Re: The health of the worlds Oceans
« Reply #25 on: November 17, 2013, 02:55:27 AM »
Thank you for the memories and the few minutes to sit & relax to listen.

My wife came across the S Delaware by ferry, several days ago, her car was covered with salt...I hope.

bligh8

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Re: The health of the worlds Oceans
« Reply #26 on: November 30, 2013, 03:58:00 PM »
Deadly Dolphin Virus is Now Killing Whales

http://www.earthweek.com/2013/ew131115/ew131115c.html











The fish are our sentinels, as they go, we go.

bligh8

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Re: The health of the worlds Oceans
« Reply #27 on: December 19, 2013, 04:03:27 PM »

Laurent

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Re: The health of the worlds Oceans
« Reply #28 on: January 13, 2014, 01:04:21 PM »
Environmentalists say bluefin population being decimated
http://www.japantoday.com/category/national/view/environmentalists-say-bluefin-population-being-decimated

Priciest tuna back to normal in Tokyo's Tsukiji market
http://ajw.asahi.com/article/economy/business/AJ201401050018

bligh8

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Re: The health of the worlds Oceans
« Reply #29 on: February 26, 2014, 05:41:08 AM »
Laruent,

Again sorry about the delay in responding..

I've a neighbor who works for the feds, his dept is control of illegal fishing. The stories he tells me are just unbelievable. Ghost ships with shanghaied crews staying out to sea until their ship fails in a fashion that is not repairable out to sea. The only way they are caught is when they come into port for repairs. They off-load their catches to legal fishing vessels with operating transponders thus avoiding attention they would be subject to in port.

Other fishing vessels turning off their transponders near illegal fishing waters and amazingly they come back on three days later just inside of legal fishing waters. All commercial fishing vessels fishing in international waters must have a operating transponder. All new ships being built after -years ago- sorry I do not know the date, have transponders and hull id numbers imbedded within the ship at points not easily found by maintenance crews. At any given moment he tells me that every ship that's operating legally is visible to US authorities. Sadly, the government sequester program cuts funding to less important programs like illegal fishing...the results being he and his dept. are doing next to nothing. Thank You for providing the links, even though some enlightening topics on the board have become of high interest to me....in the end it will be the destruction of the Oceans that will be our undoing.

Best,
Bligh

blumenkraft

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Re: The health of the worlds Oceans
« Reply #30 on: March 27, 2020, 04:14:14 PM »
The seafloor of Fram Strait is a sink for microplastic from the Arctic and North Atlantic Ocean

Quote
Working in the Arctic Fram Strait, scientists from the Alfred Wegener Institute, Helmholtz Centre for Polar and Marine Research (AWI) have found microplastic throughout the water column with particularly high concentrations at the ocean floor. Using model-based simulations, they have also found an explanation for this high level of pollution. According to their findings, the two main ocean currents in Fram Strait transport the microscopically small plastic particles into the region between Greenland and Spitsbergen from both the Arctic and the North Atlantic. While passing through the Strait, many particles eventually drift to the seafloor, where they accumulate. The experts report on this phenomenon in a study just released in the esteemed journal Environmental Science & Technology.

Link .> https://www.awi.de/en/about-us/service/press/press-release/the-seafloor-of-fram-strait-is-a-sink-for-microplastic-from-the-arctic-and-north-atlantic-ocean.html
Everyone who can must self-isolate.