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ArcticMelt2

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Re: SpaceX
« Reply #150 on: June 04, 2019, 02:30:01 PM »
Link to accurate estimates

https://www.power-technology.com/features/carbon-capture-cost/

Quote
The Carbon Capture & Storage Association (CCSA) estimated that the earlier CCS projects in the power sector would cost between €60–€90 per tonne of carbon dioxide abated, the equivalent of around $69-$103 per tonne.

The association also predicted that these costs will decline to €35–€50 ($40-$57) in the early 2020s, thanks to technological advancements.

That is, even at best, this technology costs $ 40 per ton. And humanity has emitted into the atmosphere about a trillion tons of carbon dioxide. It means that its binding will cost the world economy 40 trillion dollars or half of today's GDP of the planet.

In the future, this amount will only increase. In this regard, that the climatic problems on Earth can be solved completely unknown. But space colonization offers a completely technically feasible solution.

This is insane

Why? You don't think the Titanic needed lifeboats? Is our Land unsinkable?

According to the latest plans, the first colonists will arrive on Mars in 5 years. This will build a colony on Mars for the first settlers, in case of a greenhouse disaster on Earth.


ArcticMelt2

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Re: SpaceX
« Reply #151 on: June 04, 2019, 02:37:43 PM »
Now the global ice area for several weeks now holds half a million square kilometers less than previous records (half a million square kilometers is the area of France). Who knows what will happen in immediate 5-10 years. Perhaps even the most recent skeptics will realize that space colonies is the only salvation.

ArcticMelt2

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Re: SpaceX
« Reply #152 on: June 04, 2019, 02:47:03 PM »
Many will ask why build a shelter in space, if it can be built on Earth? (underground bunkers).

The problem is that in conditions of global catastrophe chaos will reign (hunger, war, lack of clean drinking water, marauders). Therefore, any refuge on Earth will be plundered and destroyed (like the tombs of the pharaohs in the Egyptian pyramids).

ArcticMelt2

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Re: SpaceX
« Reply #153 on: June 04, 2019, 02:54:40 PM »
Therefore, any refuge on Earth will be plundered and destroyed (like the tombs of the pharaohs in the Egyptian pyramids).

Or you can recall the last sixth film in the Resident Evil. In this film, the rebel Alice with the help of a small bomb disables the huge underground cryo-depository with the sleeping leadership of the Umbrella Corporation (actually the elite of human civilization).

If this cryo-depository were placed on Mars, then the rebels would not have reached it.

oren

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Re: SpaceX
« Reply #154 on: June 04, 2019, 03:11:14 PM »
A. I am not against colonization of Mars in principle, but that is not a solution to anything on Earth.
B. The whole chain of posts has nothing ro do in this thread, and belongs in the "space colonization" one. Duh.

ArcticMelt2

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Re: SpaceX
« Reply #155 on: June 04, 2019, 03:17:24 PM »
A. I am not against colonization of Mars in principle, but that is not a solution to anything on Earth.

Do you think that the creation of backup copies of a hard disk is not a solution to the problem of loss of information due to the breakdown of hard disks?

B. The whole chain of posts has nothing ro do in this thread, and belongs in the "space colonization" one. Duh.

This is not an offtopic, since SpaceХ in the near future will be the only organization that will be able to carry out large-scale space colonization.

This is due to the fact that only this corporation has flying reusable space rockets that can make flights into space inexpensive. The lion's share of the problems of space colonization rests on the very expensive price of transportation due to disposable missiles.

SteveMDFP

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Re: SpaceX
« Reply #156 on: June 04, 2019, 03:39:08 PM »

According to the latest plans, the first colonists will arrive on Mars in 5 years. This will build a colony on Mars for the first settlers, in case of a greenhouse disaster on Earth.

The topic is a bit tangential, but this vision is part of SpaceX's goal.  I think it's a dangerous and vastly expensive pipe dream.

Nobody knows if it's possible to adequately protect the travelers from radiation while in transit.   At the destination, they'll have to live mostly underground.  The greenhouses may need to be underground for the same reason.  Growing lights sufficient for a small population will be a massive energy expenditure.

The cost and ongoing resource footprint per colonist will be massive.  For the cost involved, we could construct dozens of habitats in deep underground mines on earth.  After all, the Mars colonists would have to live underground anyway.

gerontocrat

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Re: SpaceX
« Reply #157 on: June 04, 2019, 04:10:17 PM »
Oh dear.......

https://phys.org/news/2018-08-elon-musk-colonising-mars-bad.html

Sorry, Elon Musk, but it's now clear that colonising Mars is unlikely – and a bad idea

Quote
Terraforming plans crushed?

Perhaps even more damning, the long-suggested idea of terraforming Mars is now firmly locked in the realm of science fiction. Musk has previously indicated that he wants to terraform the planet to make it more Earth-like, so you can "eventually walk around outside without anything on." This would most easily be done by producing an atmosphere made of heat-trapping greenhouse gases locked in the planet's ice in order to raise its temperature and pressure. Musk has suggested that we could drop thermonuclear bombs on the ice at its poles in order to heat it up to release the carbon dioxide.
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mitch

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Re: SpaceX
« Reply #158 on: June 04, 2019, 05:26:26 PM »
It would be vastly cheaper to "terraform" earth, i.e. fix the climate problem here than to try to make Mars habitable.  Transport costs to Mars for sufficient numbers of humans and equipment needed are probably equivalent to the entire global GDP. 

ArcticMelt2

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Re: SpaceX
« Reply #159 on: June 04, 2019, 05:41:56 PM »
Transport costs to Mars for sufficient numbers of humans and equipment needed are probably equivalent to the entire global GDP.

https://bigthink.com/technology-innovation/elon-musk-cost-spacex-ticket

Quote
A ticket to the red planet aboard a SpaceX rocket will likely cost "a couple hundred thousand dollars," according to CEO Elon Musk.

Those. Sending a million colonists to Mars will cost 200 billion dollars. This is only 0.2% of global GDP.

Creating a Martian colony is much cheaper than projects for the disposal of CO2 on Earth.

ArcticMelt2

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Re: SpaceX
« Reply #160 on: June 04, 2019, 05:44:18 PM »
The high cost of space travel is a myth.

Now billions of people have the opportunity to fly on large jets. When rockets become as reusable as planes and cars, likewise millions of people will be able to fly space flights.

ArcticMelt2

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Re: SpaceX
« Reply #161 on: June 04, 2019, 05:54:36 PM »
The cost and ongoing resource footprint per colonist will be massive.  For the cost involved, we could construct dozens of habitats in deep underground mines on earth.  After all, the Mars colonists would have to live underground anyway.

The Martian colony will not be much more complicated than the ISS. Or a modern nuclear submarine, where two hundred people can live for several months or even years in complete isolation.

Or the polar cities, where hundreds of thousands of people live on the polar night with a break for messages of six months or more.

http://www.theworldgeography.com/2011/12/10-largest-cities-within-arctic-circle.html


oren

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Re: SpaceX
« Reply #162 on: June 04, 2019, 06:35:02 PM »
It would be vastly cheaper to "terraform" earth, i.e. fix the climate problem here than to try to make Mars habitable.
This.

ArcticMelt2

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Re: SpaceX
« Reply #163 on: June 04, 2019, 06:40:19 PM »
It would be vastly cheaper to "terraform" earth, i.e. fix the climate problem here than to try to make Mars habitable.
This.

Creating a Martian colony will be much cheaper than projects for the disposal of carbon dioxide. Don't you believe it?

Read the latest news. While the cost of space flight is falling (technology of reusable rockets is developing), greenhouse gas emissions are increasing rapidly (+3.5 ppm over the last year). I'm afraid people will not have time to solve climate problems before the collapse of civilization.

ArcticMelt2

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Re: SpaceX
« Reply #164 on: June 04, 2019, 07:27:51 PM »
In general, all the companies of Elona Mask master the technologies that are needed to create a Martian colony.

SpaceХ creates reusable rockets and spacecraft for a flight to Mars
Tesla develops the direction of electric transport, which is unopposed for Mars
Boring Company develops technologies of underground construction (mainly, this construction of tunnels) - the colony on Mars will be mostly underground

In this regard, in the coming years, the company Mask will be able to easily build and maintain a Martian colony.

ArcticMelt2

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Re: SpaceX
« Reply #165 on: June 04, 2019, 08:01:05 PM »
Tesla develops the direction of electric transport, which is unopposed for Mars
Martian colony.

In addition, this company specializes in creating the largest batteries that will be ideal for the Martian colony.

https://interestingengineering.com/california-set-to-build-the-worlds-largest-battery-system

Quote
More than 100 proposals were received by the utility company about how to manage the project and land the Moss Landing Power Plant. The winning project sees PG&E team up with electric car company Tesla to build the battery system.

The total project is comprised of four separate sites including a 183-megawatt facility south of San Jose, California, that will be designed and built by Tesla and owned by PG&E.

Sigmetnow

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Re: SpaceX
« Reply #166 on: June 04, 2019, 08:14:56 PM »
Why risk your life to go... anywhere?

“Because it’s there.”
People who say it cannot be done should not interrupt those who are doing it.

ArcticMelt2

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Re: SpaceX
« Reply #167 on: June 04, 2019, 08:20:17 PM »
No, it's not about risk. Just Mask plans to build for rich people an impregnable bunker on Mars in case of a global catastrophe on Earth.

While on Mars, you retain the ability to exchange information with the Earth, but at the same time you will not get nuclear missiles, global warming, sudden epidemics of new diseases, radical extremists, etc.

Sigmetnow

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Re: SpaceX
« Reply #168 on: June 04, 2019, 09:41:14 PM »
Mars will be a challenging destination for adventureres, not be a vacation spot for rich people.

Elon Musk considers move to Mars despite 'good chance of death'
Quote
“Your probability of dying on Mars is much higher than on Earth,” he said, adding: “It’s gonna be hard. There’s a good chance of death, going in a little can through deep space.”

Should he succeed in landing on Mars, he expects to work “nonstop to build the base”. There will, he said, be “not much time for leisure. And even after doing all this, it’s a very harsh environment. So … there’s a good chance you die there. We think you can come back but we’re not sure. Now, does that sound like an escape hatch for rich people?”

Musk also said he thought “the ad for going to Mars would be like Shackleton’s ad for going to the Antarctic”.

While preparing for his expedition to the South Pole, which began in 1914, Sir Ernest Shackleton is supposed to have placed an advertisement in the Times that read: “Men wanted for hazardous journey, small wages, bitter cold, long months of complete darkness, constant danger, safe return doubtful, honour and recognition in case of success.”
https://www.theguardian.com/technology/2018/nov/25/elon-musk-move-mars-chance-of-death
People who say it cannot be done should not interrupt those who are doing it.

Sigmetnow

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Re: SpaceX
« Reply #169 on: June 04, 2019, 09:44:20 PM »
SpaceX beats Falcon 9 recovery records after company’s heaviest launch ever
Quote
The road to rapid reusability

Rarely will it make headlines, but the fact remains that SpaceX’s ultimate goal is not just to reuse Falcon 9 (and other) boosters, but to do so with a level of routine efficiency approaching that of modern passenger aircraft. It’s reasonable to assume that chemical rockets might never reach those capabilities, but they may certainly be able to improve enough to radically change the relationship between humans and spaceflight.
https://www.teslarati.com/spacex-beats-falcon-9-recovery-records/
People who say it cannot be done should not interrupt those who are doing it.

oren

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Re: SpaceX
« Reply #170 on: June 04, 2019, 09:45:47 PM »
Creating a Martian colony will be much cheaper than projects for the disposal of carbon dioxide. Don't you believe it?

Read the latest news. While the cost of space flight is falling (technology of reusable rockets is developing), greenhouse gas emissions are increasing rapidly (+3.5 ppm over the last year). I'm afraid people will not have time to solve climate problems before the collapse of civilization.
No need for carbon disposal, start with avoiding carbon emission. Renewable costs are also falling, at a much more rapid rate. Humanity has the time and the feasible technology to avoid the collapse of civilization, it just lacks the will.
The only advantage of space flight is that it can be accelerated by the actions of few people. But a Mars colony will need the support of big bodies, governments and the like. Private funds will not be enough.
And I still claim this debate belongs in the Space Colonization thread or a new Mars Colony thread, as this thread is focused on SpaceX news, rather than long-winded discussions (monologues?) of the Mars Colony goals risks and benefits, both for its own merits and compared to the Earth "alternative".

ArcticMelt2

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Re: SpaceX
« Reply #171 on: June 04, 2019, 09:47:07 PM »
Mars will be a challenging destination for adventureres, not be a vacation spot for rich people.

Elon Musk considers move to Mars despite 'good chance of death'

This is true only at the beginning. With progressive global warming, the collapse of Earth civilization and the ensuing chaos, Mars can become a paradise for wealthy people who seek stability.

Sigmetnow

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Re: SpaceX
« Reply #172 on: June 04, 2019, 09:52:57 PM »
...
And I still claim this debate belongs in the Space Colonization thread or a new Mars Colony thread, as this thread is focused on SpaceX news, rather than long-winded discussions (monologues?) of the Mars Colony goals risks and benefits, both for its own merits and compared to the Earth "alternative".

I agree — at least until the first SpaceX Starship leaves earth orbit... or NASA comes to its senses and chooses SpaceX to get astronauts to the moon.
People who say it cannot be done should not interrupt those who are doing it.

ArcticMelt2

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Re: SpaceX
« Reply #173 on: June 04, 2019, 09:56:20 PM »
Humanity has the time and the feasible technology to avoid the collapse of civilization, it just lacks the will.

Unfortunately, the time machine has not yet been created to accurately answer this question.

The only advantage of space flight is that it can be accelerated by the actions of few people. But a Mars colony will need the support of big bodies, governments and the like. Private funds will not be enough.

Private capital now occupies a leading role in any economy, including space. Private corporations spend at least 4 times more money on space than government agencies:



Most space launches are carried out with the help of private corporations and for private corporations. Cosmos has long been profitable.

Sam

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Re: SpaceX
« Reply #174 on: June 04, 2019, 11:56:46 PM »
Mars will be a challenging destination for adventureres, not be a vacation spot for rich people.

Elon Musk considers move to Mars despite 'good chance of death'
Quote
“Your probability of dying on Mars is much higher than on Earth,” he said, adding: “It’s gonna be hard. There’s a good chance of death, going in a little can through deep space.”

Should he succeed in landing on Mars, he expects to work “nonstop to build the base”. There will, he said, be “not much time for leisure. And even after doing all this, it’s a very harsh environment. So … there’s a good chance you die there. We think you can come back but we’re not sure. Now, does that sound like an escape hatch for rich people?”

Musk also said he thought “the ad for going to Mars would be like Shackleton’s ad for going to the Antarctic”.

While preparing for his expedition to the South Pole, which began in 1914, Sir Ernest Shackleton is supposed to have placed an advertisement in the Times that read: “Men wanted for hazardous journey, small wages, bitter cold, long months of complete darkness, constant danger, safe return doubtful, honour and recognition in case of success.”
https://www.theguardian.com/technology/2018/nov/25/elon-musk-move-mars-chance-of-death

It is not just "a good chance you will die there". It is a certainty. The changes to the human body alone from the long duration space flight needed to get there (and back) make return all but impossible with anything other than giant rotating craft that simulate gravity en route.

More over, people have little idea just how harsh a place Mars is. Atmospheric pressure on Mars averages 0.6 kPa. Even at the bottom of the Helles Planitia it only reaches 1.16 kPa. This is far below the Armstrong limit of 6.25 kPa, the pressure at which water's boiling point is at body temperature. Life on Mars will require always being in a pressurized bubble. Even brief exposures outside will be fatal from pressure drop and self boiling of body fluids inside your body.

Much of Mars sits on the very edge of the triple point of water at 273.16 K and 0.612 kPa. That is the point where water coexists as solid, liquid and gas. At pressures under 0.612 kPa, pure water can only be a solid or gas. It then behaves like carbon dioxide on earth and directly sublimates.

Even in the depths of Helles pure water boils at about 287 K (14 C, or 57 F).

The only medical care available will be what they take with them. Things like cat scans and MRIs will not be available. It will all be country medicine, with a limited supply of decent drugs. With low gravity, all sorts of changes will happen to the body. No one knows what that will mean. There will be surprises, such as those learned from long duration space flight.

Life will be harsh in the extreme. And with that comes early death from all manner of causes.

Radiation exposure will necessitate excavating an underground home to provide sufficient protection from both the mean radiation exposure levels from the sun and space, but also for the expected excursions from coronal mass ejections ...

But my oh my - the view, during the limited times you get to go to the surface - desolation as far as the eye can see.

Sunlight for plants will be limited as well because of the need to be underground. As a result, solar power will need to be used to power batteries. Dust storms will complicate that, requiring frequent cleaning. Backup power will have to be sufficient to last through very long duration weeks long dust storms, storms which can arise in minutes with little warning.

Oh what joy, what adventure - dying slowly in a cold dark cave, breathing recycled air that slowly goes stale and grows rich in CO2.

Tim

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Re: SpaceX
« Reply #175 on: June 05, 2019, 12:14:32 AM »
Plus ... perchlorate in all the soil. What? Can't use the soil? Can't even come into contact with it? Can't even be exposed to the dust that would be impossible to keep out of the protective bubble habitat you'd have to exist in, permanently, forever? What, science fiction fans didn't know about the actual chemical makeup of the deadly martian soil?

Pffft. What a waste of resources all this living on Mars bullshit is. People tried to live in a sealed habitat right here on earth, spent tons of money trying, and it failed miserably. Look that up too.

The high levels of perchlorate found on Mars would be toxic to humans, Smith said.

"Anybody who is saying they want to go live on the surface of Mars better think about the interaction of perchlorate with the human body," he warned. "At one-half percent, that's a huge amount. Very small amounts are considered toxic. So you'd better have a plan to deal with the poisons on the surface."

Any humans exploring Mars, Smith said, will find it hard to avoid the finest of dust particles. "It'll get into everything…certainly into your habitat."


https://www.space.com/21554-mars-toxic-perchlorate-chemicals.html

It's all just so stupid.  Why not just stop killing the planet you've got? :o

Neven

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Re: SpaceX
« Reply #176 on: June 05, 2019, 12:35:01 AM »
But, but, but Matt Damon in The Martian;)

I'm going to watch that film again soon with my daughter, because she asked me about colonising Mars.
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Tim

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Re: SpaceX
« Reply #177 on: June 05, 2019, 01:14:30 AM »
Yes, love movies.

With the recent carbon capture success story, Shell Carbon-Capture Plant Hits 4 Million Ton Milestone Early ... we just need 80,000 more of those huge and expensive projects to get the job done. Musk should be applying his resources there instead of wasting it on Mars.

I guess I just get frustrated at the distraction he causes with this. I mean, people actually think ... oh, never mind.  :-\

Sam

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Re: SpaceX
« Reply #178 on: June 05, 2019, 02:45:36 AM »
Tim,

Great point. Perchlorate is a severe hazard. It is a powerful oxidizer and toxin. Even in trace concentrations it is a huge health problem. Perchlorate and pertechnetate (radioactive waste) substitute in the body for iodate (iodine’s active form in the thyroid). In doing that, they wreck havoc on thyroid and pineal gland function and with other organs and tissues to a lesser degree.

Sam

ArcticMelt2

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Re: SpaceX
« Reply #179 on: June 05, 2019, 04:29:09 AM »
Tim,

Great point. Perchlorate is a severe hazard. It is a powerful oxidizer and toxin. Even in trace concentrations it is a huge health problem. Perchlorate and pertechnetate (radioactive waste) substitute in the body for iodate (iodine’s active form in the thyroid). In doing that, they wreck havoc on thyroid and pineal gland function and with other organs and tissues to a lesser degree.

Sam

The soil can be cleaned or brought from Earth. Do you really think that life on Earth in the next 10-20 years will be better and safer than on Mars?  :)

Read the latest news from the next branch.

https://forum.arctic-sea-ice.net/index.php/topic,2728.msg203412.html#msg203412

Quote
Human Civilization Faces "Existential Risk" by 2050 According to New Australian Climate Change Report 

ArcticMelt2

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Re: SpaceX
« Reply #180 on: June 05, 2019, 04:35:49 AM »
Another Dragon successfully returned to Earth. This is already the 19th descent module of the SpaceX Corporation, which has successfully returned from space. None of the lander has ever experienced critical problems during space flight and decreased. This means that the probability of death in space flight on the spaceships of the corporation Mask decreased to 5%.

https://twitter.com/SpaceX


Tim

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Re: SpaceX
« Reply #181 on: June 05, 2019, 04:43:55 AM »
Tim,

Great point. Perchlorate is a severe hazard. It is a powerful oxidizer and toxin. Even in trace concentrations it is a huge health problem. Perchlorate and pertechnetate (radioactive waste) substitute in the body for iodate (iodine’s active form in the thyroid). In doing that, they wreck havoc on thyroid and pineal gland function and with other organs and tissues to a lesser degree.

Sam

The soil can be cleaned or brought from Earth. Do you really think that life on Earth in the next 10-20 years will be better and safer than on Mars?  :)

Read the latest news from the next branch.

https://forum.arctic-sea-ice.net/index.php/topic,2728.msg203412.html#msg203412

Quote
Human Civilization Faces "Existential Risk" by 2050 According to New Australian Climate Change Report 

Strange logic.

If, as has been pointed out, the ability to inhabit Mars is practically nil, for the myriad of reasons just explained ... deterioration of civilization, or even the entire earth system, does not increase those possibilities of inhabiting Mars up from nil.

The report you presented doesn't magically make Mars more inhabitable.


oren

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Re: SpaceX
« Reply #182 on: June 05, 2019, 05:19:24 AM »
Collapse of human civilization (which I expect to happen by mid-century) is not the same as human extinction on Earth, which I don't expect to happen. But in any case, the risk of extinction on Mars is much higher than on Earth, once there is no supporting civilization to launch more needed stuff and send new immigrants.

Sam

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Re: SpaceX
« Reply #183 on: June 05, 2019, 05:29:52 AM »
The soil can be cleaned or brought from Earth. Do you really think that life on Earth in the next 10-20 years will be better and safer than on Mars?  :)

Oh my. The energy required to transport soil from earth to mars alone would be staggering. The environmental consequences on earth from the CO2, methane, NOx, SOx, CO, aluminum sols, the perchlorate from solid rocket boosters, and a myriad of other pollutants that would result boggle the mind.

Life on earth will continue. The standard of living for humans will not precisely because of our own shortsightedness and ignorance. Many, probably most species extant on earth today will perish, not in the next 10-20 years, but before this new era (the anthropoceme) runs its flash in the pan course. Mankind might well be among those that doesn't ultimately survive. But along with cockroaches and rodents, man is extremely adaptable, so I wouldn't be sure about that.

Life on earth is in large measure the result of the ongoing process of episodic mega-catastrophes leading to severe extinction events, combined with the constant roiling of the earth through tectonics, volcanism, and other factors. If we did not have a giant moon, a sister planet really, in near orbit, and a solar system littered with the debris of huge planetary body collisions raining down on the earth, life would not have reached the state it has.

This human caused catastrophe, climate disruption, is terrible for mankind and for the vast majority of species on the earth today. But that is just today. Wiping the slate and starting over fuels evolution of newer stronger better species to come. But that doesn't make it good for mankind or any of the species that do not survive the transition. And in the end it may not be good for life in general. 

We have about 750 million years for intelligent life to escape earth and colonize other worlds. After that, heating from the sun will quickly extinguish all life on earth over the next half billion years after that.

For now, we have already severely fouled the land, air and water over the whole of the earth. What makes you think for even one instant that we wouldn't apply the same principles on mars, fouling it even further.

Technophilia, the love of technology, is truly a disturbing thing to watch in action. The blinders that people put on to get what they want (or think they want) regardless of, and utterly without regard to, the consequences is astounding.

Our greatest challenge is for mankind to wake up, grow up, and recognize how fragile and how precious our world is. The astronauts, cosmonauts and tychonauts who went into space all got that lesson. The astronauts who left earth orbit for the moon got that most intensely. We live on a small delicate world. It is a precious gift. And we are choosing through our willful ignorance, our arrogance, and our foolishness to destroy our home.

ArcticMelt2

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Re: SpaceX
« Reply #184 on: June 05, 2019, 05:49:01 AM »
Collapse of human civilization (which I expect to happen by mid-century) is not the same as human extinction on Earth, which I don't expect to happen.

If the military use nuclear, chemical and biological weapon in the course of possible global conflicts for scarce resources, then humankind on Earth can really become almost completely extinct. The Earth will be poisoned for many decades by radiation and dangerous toxins from destroyed chemical plants.

But in any case, the risk of extinction on Mars is much higher than on Earth, once there is no supporting civilization to launch more needed stuff and send new immigrants.

Musk believes that the Martian colony can become autonomous with a population of one million people.
« Last Edit: June 05, 2019, 08:49:58 AM by ArcticMelt2 »

ArcticMelt2

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Re: SpaceX
« Reply #185 on: June 05, 2019, 05:51:25 AM »
Oh my. The energy required to transport soil from earth to mars alone would be staggering. The environmental consequences on earth from the CO2, methane, NOx, SOx, CO, aluminum sols, the perchlorate from solid rocket boosters, and a myriad of other pollutants that would result boggle the mind.

The current Mask's missiles use only kerosene and liquid oxygen. In the future, it is planned to replace kerosene with cheaper methane. In this regard, the missiles of SpaceХ Corporation will cause minimal damage to the environment. Moreover, it is possible to replace methane with hydrogen.
« Last Edit: June 05, 2019, 08:50:27 AM by ArcticMelt2 »

Neven

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Re: SpaceX
« Reply #186 on: June 05, 2019, 09:04:50 AM »
Transporting soil to Mars...  :D :P
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ArcticMelt2

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Re: SpaceX
« Reply #187 on: June 05, 2019, 09:17:02 AM »
But, but, but Matt Damon in The Martian;)

I'm going to watch that film again soon with my daughter, because she asked me about colonising Mars.

In the film, Mars is shown too awful. More scary than in reality. In fact, there is never a strong wind. Even little solar rovers have been working there for almost 15 years (it took a monstrously strong dust storm to completely strip the small rover of solar electricity). And so for 15 years, small solar panels never dust too much. Plus, it is obvious that there is no strong radiation and powerful solar flares, since the little robot has worked for so long.

Be sure to tell your daughter about it.

ArcticMelt2

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Re: SpaceX
« Reply #188 on: June 05, 2019, 09:45:51 AM »
The most real film about the Martian colony, which must be shown to children, it still remains "Total Recall" with Schwarzenegger. The film realistically shows both an underground colony with a glass dome and attempts to terraforming Mars by kindling underground ice.



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Re: SpaceX
« Reply #189 on: June 05, 2019, 09:54:39 AM »
https://arstechnica.com/science/2019/06/spacex-working-on-details-of-how-to-get-people-to-mars-and-safely-back/

Quote
SpaceX beginning to tackle some of the big challenges for a Mars journey

Earlier this month, the principal Mars "development engineer" for SpaceX, Paul Wooster, provided an update on the company's vision for getting to the Red Planet. During his presentation at the 2019 Humans to Mars Summit in Washington, DC, Wooster said SpaceX remains on track to send humans to Mars in the "mid-2020s." He was likely referring to launch opportunities for Mars in 2024 and 2026, but he also acknowledged that much work remains to reach that point.

SpaceX plans to bring humans to Mars with a two-stage rocket: the Starship upper stage and a Super Heavy booster (the latter formerly known as the Big Falcon Rocket, or BFR). Iterative design versions of the Starship are being built at facilities in both Boca Chica, Texas, and near Cape Canaveral, Florida. SpaceX founder Elon Musk is expected to provide an update on their development in late June.

Wooster said that SpaceX is working to "minimize the number of things that we need to do in order to get that first mission to Mars." Part of that minimization involves a massive payload capacity. Starship, once refueled in low-Earth orbit, is planned to have a capacity of more than 100 tons to Mars.

This will allow SpaceX to take a "brute force" approach, which will greatly simplify the overall logistics of the first missions. For instance, this will allow for taking more consumables instead of recycling them, more equipment and spare parts, and other infrastructure, Wooster said.

Of course, there are many other variables beyond just getting to Mars that make for a successful mission. Wooster echoed Musk, who in previous talks has said the company is not as focused on other aspects of the mission, such as long-term food storage, collecting resources, and the science to be done on Mars. "SpaceX is very much a transportation company," Wooster said.


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Re: SpaceX
« Reply #190 on: June 05, 2019, 10:16:38 AM »
In the film, Mars is shown too awful. More scary than in reality. In fact, there is never a strong wind. Even little solar rovers have been working there for almost 15 years (it took a monstrously strong dust storm to completely strip the small rover of solar electricity). And so for 15 years, small solar panels never dust too much. Plus, it is obvious that there is no strong radiation and powerful solar flares, since the little robot has worked for so long.

The Martian was a fun movie, though completely unrealistic. National Geographic’s Mars series is better. It too is utterly unrealistic.

All craft headed for space or use on other planets use electronics designed to handle a lot more radiation than terrestrial electronics can handle specifically because of the radiation impacts. They also use fault tolerant logic to detect bit errors and correct.

Survival for a small rover doesn’t require the power levels required for human habitation. It can also tolerate long periods at low power in survival modes and recover later. Humans can’t do that. We need air to breathe and water to drink on an extremely regular basis. Nat. Geo’s Mars gives a better idea of what that is like. But again, it is fiction. It isn’t real. Real life is vastly harder and harsher than these pieces of fiction suggest. The “costs” involved are very real. The heroics in the Martian to recover a single person would never occur in reality. The costs to the crew in terms of radiation exposure alone would be fatal. Still, it is a fun movie and worth seeing. “Gravity” similarly plays fast and loose with the truth and reality. It has some great shots in it, like the fire behavior on the space station, and the impacts of a Kessler cascade. But the reality of what is possible bears little resemblance to the fiction.

As to the impacts of the rocket launches. Using fossil fuels or hydrogen improves some aspects. They are vastly less damaging than the aluminum sols and perchlorates released from solid rocket use, or the toxics from UDMH, etc...  But that doesn’t mean they don’t have a high environmental cost. They do. And it still doesn’t make the trip any more feasible, no matter how much someone may want it to be. No, the impacts are not solely limited to the combustion of the fuel. They include everything needed to produce that fuel, everything needed to produce the rocket, and the combustion of the fuel. That last bit is a small part of the total costs. And no, just throwing more research and effort and money at it will not close the equation.

Sam



« Last Edit: June 05, 2019, 11:19:48 AM by Sam »

oren

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Re: SpaceX
« Reply #191 on: June 05, 2019, 11:13:56 AM »
The most real film about the Martian colony, which must be shown to children, it still remains "Total Recall" with Schwarzenegger. The film realistically shows both an underground colony with a glass dome and attempts to terraforming Mars by kindling underground ice.
And a three-boobed woman. Just saying.

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Re: SpaceX
« Reply #192 on: June 05, 2019, 12:27:42 PM »
The Martians left Mars because it was such a dump.

And in the end it didn't do them a lot of good.
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Re: SpaceX
« Reply #193 on: June 05, 2019, 01:32:05 PM »
Prices for space flights are falling rapidly.




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Re: SpaceX
« Reply #194 on: June 05, 2019, 02:32:47 PM »
Back on topic?  :)

The next SpaceX launch is set for June 11, from Vandenberg, California, with a 3-satellite Radarsat Constellation that is SpaceX’s most valuable payload yet.

SpaceX Falcon 9 and $1B satellite trio set for first California launch in months
https://www.teslarati.com/spacex-readies-falcon-9-radarsat-california-launch/


Reminder: the Space Colonization thread is here: 
https://forum.arctic-sea-ice.net/index.php/topic,2522.msg200767.html#msg200767
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Sigmetnow

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Re: SpaceX
« Reply #195 on: June 06, 2019, 01:03:30 AM »
- Please note that the launch of Canada’s new Earth observation satellites, the RADARSAT Constellation Mission, is now targeted for Wednesday, June 12th at 10:17 a.m. (ET) [1417 UTC]. #RCMSatellites
Quote
CanadianSpaceAgency (@csa_asc) 6/4/19, 3:30 PM
Slated for launch on June 11, the RADARSAT Constellation Mission is a trio of Satellites that will scan  Canada daily to help manage our #environment and waters. Learn more: ow.ly/8xVl50uwziw. #RCMSatellites #ClimateChange
https://twitter.com/csa_asc/status/1135992189304082432
2-min video on the satellites’ earth-observing capabilities at the link.

Watch the launch webcast at SpaceX.com
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Sigmetnow

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Re: SpaceX
« Reply #196 on: June 08, 2019, 08:13:42 PM »
Quote
SpaceX (@SpaceX) 6/8/19, 11:39 AM
Static fire test of Falcon 9 complete—targeting June 12 launch of RADARSAT Constellation Mission from Vandenberg Air Force Base in California
https://twitter.com/spacex/status/1137383580529618946
Launch time:  1417 GMT (10:17 a.m. EDT; 7:17 a.m. PDT)
- The booster supporting this mission launched Crew Dragon to the @Space_Station in March


—— 
Falcon Heavy STP-2 mission: SpaceX's Workhorse Readies for Its Most Challenging Test Yet
Quote
The mission, which will be managed by the United States Air Force and Missile Systems Center, will send 24 satellites into space. The company has declared it “among the most challenging launches in SpaceX history,” due to a mixture of four upper-stage engine burns, three deployment orbits, and a propulsive passivation maneuver to top it all off. The whole mission is expected to last six hours.
https://www.inverse.com/article/56514-spacex-s-falcon-heavy-is-about-to-hit-hyperdrive

Current Launch window: 0330-0730 GMT on June 25th (11:30 p.m.-3:30 a.m. EDT on 24th/25th)

https://www.spacex.com/stp-2
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Sigmetnow

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Re: SpaceX
« Reply #197 on: June 13, 2019, 06:04:22 PM »
The famous Vandenberg Fog was no issue for the California launch — or the landing!

Three Canadian radar surveillance satellites ride SpaceX rocket into orbit
Quote
A SpaceX Falcon 9 rocket fired through a dense shroud of coastal fog and climbed into orbit Wednesday from Vandenberg Air Force Base in California, deploying a trio of radar observation satellites to begin a $900 million mission surveying the Arctic, maritime waters, forests and farmland for the Canadian government.

The Radarsat Constellation Mission, made up of three identical Earth-observing satellites, is led by the Canadian Space Agency, and is one of the most expensive missions in the history of the country’s space program.

The three Radarsat satellites lifted off from Space Launch Complex 4-East at Vandenberg at 7:17:10 a.m. PDT (10:17:10 a.m. EDT; 1417:10 GMT). Seconds later, the Falcon 9 emerged from a thick blanket of fog as seen from a distant mountaintop tracking camera that provided live views of the rocket’s ascent. ...
https://spaceflightnow.com/2019/06/12/three-canadian-radar-surveillance-satellites-ride-spacex-rocket-into-orbit/
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ArcticMelt2

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Re: SpaceX
« Reply #198 on: June 13, 2019, 08:13:14 PM »
https://twitter.com/Marco_Langbroek

Quote
Two #Starlink objects, objects AV and AQ,  have still not raised their orbit.

(note that for some objects, e.g. objects J and AB, the last available orbital elements are up to almost a week old! AV and AQ have recent elements < 1 day old though)






Sigmetnow

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Re: SpaceX
« Reply #199 on: June 14, 2019, 08:20:20 PM »
“Starlink – at least in its current iteration – was never meant to serve more than ‘3-5%’ of Earth (population: ~7.8 billion), with most or all of its users nominally located in areas with low to medium population densities. This generally confirms technical suspicions that Starlink (and other constellations like OneWeb and Telesat) is not really capable of providing internet to everyone per se.”

SpaceX CEO Elon Musk hints at Starlink’s global reach at Tesla shareholder event
https://www.teslarati.com/spacex-elon-musk-starlink-250-million-people/

Video: Starlink early deployment: 6 to 12 orbital planes.
What areas of the earth could see usable Starlink coverage in its early phases?

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