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Jim Hunt

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Algorithms of Hate - Redux
« on: February 28, 2019, 11:12:20 PM »
An interesting paper from Andrew Jakubowicz on a topic dear to my heart, courtesy of the Royal Society of New South Wales:

https://royalsoc.org.au/images/pdf/journal/151-1-Jakubowicz.pdf

The abstract:

Quote
Complex multicultural societies hold together through effective and interactive communication, which reinforces civility, enhances information sharing, and facilitates the expression of interests while permitting both diversity and commonality. While trust is an important cement in the building of social cohesion, multicultural societies face continuing challenges as their ever-extending populations test the trust necessary to constitute supportive, bridging social capital. The Internet, which has become a crucial component of the communication systems in modern societies, offers both opportunities and challenges, especially in the generation and circulation of race hate speech which attacks social cohesion and aims to impose singular and exclusive racial, ethnic or religious social norms. The Internet in Australia remains problematic for four key reasons. The underlying algorithms that produce social media and underpin the profitability of the huge domains of Facebook and Alphabet also facilitate the spread of hate speech online. With very limited constraints on hate speech, the Australian Internet makes it easy to be racist. Human/computer interactions allow for far greater user disinhibition, which suits the proclivities of those more manipulative and sadistic users of the Internet. All of this is occurring in a post-truth world where racially, religiously and nationalistically inflected ideologies spread fairly much unchecked, and discourses of violence become everywhere more apparent. Australia has opportunities to do something about this situation in this country, yet we see around us a lethargy and acceptance of technological determinism. The paper assesses these claims and proposes some ways forward that are evidence-based, and collaborative, scholarly and social.

Discuss. With all due civility please!

N.B. Forked from the now closed thread with a similar title.
« Last Edit: March 01, 2019, 01:07:31 AM by Jim Hunt »
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Neven

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Re: Algorithms of Hate - Redux
« Reply #1 on: February 28, 2019, 11:20:46 PM »
Quote
Human/computer interactions allow for far greater user disinhibition, which
suits the proclivities of those more manipulative and sadistic users of the Internet.

There's a 'Problem of social media' thread out there, where I maintain that ending anonymity on the Internet, would reduce a lot of the hate.
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Jim Hunt

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Re: Algorithms of Hate - Redux
« Reply #2 on: March 01, 2019, 01:13:04 AM »
I maintain that ending anonymity on the Internet, would reduce a lot of the hate.

Agreed. Jakubowicz on that very topic:

Quote
It is one of the uncomfortable consequences of being a Jewish intellectual and social scientist in the era of post-truth that the new Nazis and other ultra-nationalists find us particularly attractive as targets, both for the views to which we can be attached, and as individuals who can be made to suffer emotionally through activation of Holocaust tropes. Ultimately, I decided to take no action other than use the intervention as a standing case study in how the Internet has allowed the resurgence of race hate and the difficulties the system creates for any action to seek either redress or removal in a sea of global anonymity.


not to mention:

Quote
The Internet depends on the easy anonymity of its users, the effective asynchronicity of its interactions, and the isolated circumstances under which most people engage with others online. Such human/computer/human interaction allows for social and psychological opportunities that would be far more difficult in the everyday world. So using the Internet intensifies “disinhibition”, by allowing sadistic, egoistic and manipulative behaviour to spread more fluidly.
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sidd

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Re: Algorithms of Hate - Redux
« Reply #3 on: March 01, 2019, 07:03:27 AM »
Re: " I maintain that ending anonymity on the Internet, would reduce a lot of the hate."

It might. But it will also take away a shield that some need.

The net is built on numerical addresses, not identities. If you want to mandate that all addresses must be associated with identifiable identities, you already got that, look up or subpoena the billing identity for that address.

But i think you want more that that, you want everyone with access to that originating address to be associated with an identifiable entity. You will find most of them are corporations. They sell access to joe blow from anytown, idaho to spout anything he wants. They harvest his data, know his hat size, look into his soul. You want the corporations to disclose his identity to all.

Good luck with that. But lets say you do force disclosure. Immediately, there will be hidden networks and  black market in identities. Gee, in fact, there already is ...

Now if you want to stop hidden networks, thats impossible. There is a theorem about steganography being fundamentally impossible to detect, one man's noise is another man's signal. That applies in spades to internet traffic. The earliest example on the internet that i recall was in message passing through tailored nameservice requests in the early nineties, but there are a myriad of other examples since.

Given sufficiently draconian law and enforcement, you could probably id all but a few percent of the users. NSA is already doin it, so is goofacetwit.

My position remains unchanged, I will not participate in a forum that forbids anonymity. Not because i am naive enuf to imagine that the identity associated with the user "sidd" on this forum is very hidden; in fact i think that anyone with half an hour on his hands could easily find my fone number and a street address. Rather because i cannot abide by the privacy violation of forcing identity disclosure.

sidd

Jim Hunt

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Re: Algorithms of Hate - Redux
« Reply #4 on: March 01, 2019, 07:19:05 AM »
Now for what that's worth, I still do not understand what this thread or the prior one is all about or why it matters.

That much would seem to be self evident Lurk?

2) My CV also includes moderator at the ASIB and a "backroom boy" at Skeptical Science. I'll ask Neven nicely if I can become a moderator here too. That way perhaps I'll be able to prevent your lack of understanding from clogging up this thread too?

Did I mention that the topic is dear to my heart?
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Jim Hunt

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Re: Algorithms of Hate - Redux
« Reply #5 on: March 01, 2019, 07:51:25 AM »
In fact I think that anyone with half an hour on his hands could easily find my fone number and a street address.

Especially if their name happens to be Anthony Watts?

http://GreatWhiteCon.info/2014/04/snow-white-is-actually-a-cowardly-cross-dresser/

Cheers,

Snow White (outed!)
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Jim Hunt

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Re: Algorithms of Hate - Redux
« Reply #6 on: March 01, 2019, 07:55:40 AM »
To you maybe. Your unnecessary over the top haughtiness and implicit threats is not helping your communication style one bit Jim. I am far from impressed atm with your version of the Ivory Tower you seem to inhabit.

Congratulations Lurk!

You've secured the very first entry in the Great White Con 2019 "New Einstein" award competition. Here's one "Snow White" prepared earlier:

http://GreatWhiteCon.info/2015/02/the-great-white-con-2015-new-einstein-award/
Reality is merely an illusion, albeit a very persistent one - Albert Einstein

Neven

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Re: Algorithms of Hate - Redux
« Reply #7 on: March 01, 2019, 09:33:50 AM »
Quote
I am more than happy to defer to Neven's advice and judgment.

Here's my advice and judgment: You guys ignore each other from now on.
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Jim Hunt

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Re: Algorithms of Hate - Redux
« Reply #8 on: March 01, 2019, 10:19:08 AM »
Here's my advice and judgment: You guys ignore each other from now on.

However that would have no effect on what is visible on the screens of 3rd parties reading this thread?
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Neven

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Re: Algorithms of Hate - Redux
« Reply #9 on: March 01, 2019, 10:55:12 AM »
It will from now on, if you guys follow my advice.  :)
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Re: Algorithms of Hate - Redux
« Reply #10 on: March 01, 2019, 01:19:18 PM »
Jim, you're wasting your time here.

Jim Hunt

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Re: Algorithms of Hate - Redux
« Reply #11 on: March 01, 2019, 02:20:12 PM »
Jim, you're wasting your time here.

Time will tell Martin!
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Jim Hunt

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Re: Algorithms of Hate - Redux
« Reply #12 on: March 01, 2019, 02:28:01 PM »
Last week's edition of The Economist magazine included a review (probably paywalled?) of The Metric Society. By Steffen Mau, translated into English by Sharon Howe:

Quote
Life and society are increasingly governed by numbers.

When everything is quantified, power accrues to whoever is keeping score.

Here's an extract:

Quote
If everything people do and every step they take is tracked, they lose the freedom to act independently of such oversight, writes Steffen Mau, a German sociologist, in “The Metric Society”. Published in German in 2017 and now in Sharon Howe’s English translation, Mr Mau’s book is a wide-ranging tour through rankings and ratings, stars and points, charts and graphs. When these technologies become embedded in society, he argues, life is reduced to checkboxes. Faith in experts is replaced by devotion to figures. Meanwhile, power is transferred from individuals to those who create and maintain the scoring systems. These in turn can be gamed and their purposes perverted.

I've ordered a copy of the paperback edition from Amazon.co.uk. An organisation that's Evil Incarnate?

« Last Edit: March 03, 2019, 06:54:48 AM by Jim Hunt »
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Jim Hunt

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Re: Algorithms of Hate - Redux
« Reply #13 on: March 02, 2019, 07:59:03 AM »
I cannot abide by the privacy violation of forcing identity disclosure.

However taking the not entirely arbitrary example of one "Lurk" of this parish.

I currently don't know if she/he is female or male.

I don't know the colour of their skin or in which country (s)he resides.

I don't know the smell of her perfume or his aftershave.

I'm unable to judge the softness of her cheek or the firmness of his handshake.

I certainly have no idea if a smile is playing around the corner of her/his mouth when a phrase such as "I am far from impressed ATM with your version of the Ivory Tower you seem to inhabit" is typed rather than uttered at an unspecified location, presumably somewhere on the surface of Planet Earth!
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Re: Algorithms of Hate - Redux
« Reply #14 on: March 02, 2019, 08:22:23 PM »
Agreed that comments on this forum fall very far short in communicating affect compared to face to face conversation. Is that an argument for or against mandated identity disclosure ?

This medium forces one to address a comment or set of comments without the social cues that would come in more intimate setting. That is quite difficult, as we see. But i think the difficulties are a fair price to pay to maintain privacy. If you want to have closer interaction with a commenter, contact them offline and set up a call or a meet. These fora are not salons, nor should they attempt to be.

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Jim Hunt

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Re: Algorithms of Hate - Redux
« Reply #15 on: March 03, 2019, 12:44:42 AM »
I've ordered a copy of the paperback edition from Amazon.co.uk. An organisation that's Evil Incarnate?

The "Evil Empire" failed to deliver my eagerly awaited book during the stated window this afternoon.

My response?

Quote
Hello,

You won't be "back" tomorrow, since you weren't here today. I've been trying to find the complaints section of the Amazon web site for the last 15 minutes.

The doorbell here didn't ring. There was no knock on the door. There is no card in our letterbox. You should even have instructions on where to leave a package if nobody is in, which was not the case today.

What is going on? Where did you attempt delivery, if at all? Who should I register my complaint with?

After an hour plus another half an hour on the phone to them I eventually got an email from Amazon "customer services". A brief extract:

Quote
We realise this incident reflects negatively upon Amazon.co.uk and the feedback you've provided will be used in reviewing the service provided by DPD.

Thanks for taking the time to contact us and to bring this to our attention.

As discussed, I have contacted DPD and requested them to deliver your parcel as soon as possible as the item is urgently required by you.

I'd like to apologise for this and to help make up for the inconvenience, I've extended your Amazon Prime membership by 30 days.

My own review of the tome will have to wait a while I'm afraid. In case it's of interest in these hallowed halls, the hardback version of David Wallace-Wells' "The Uninhabitable Earth: A Story of the Future" was in the same package, together with a few other things.

According to the Amazon UK web site I've sent them a "reschedule request". That is of course prime BS.
« Last Edit: March 03, 2019, 06:56:28 AM by Jim Hunt »
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Jim Hunt

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Re: Algorithms of Hate - Redux
« Reply #16 on: March 03, 2019, 11:01:00 AM »
Storm Freya is whistling round our barn conversion this morning (UTC).

DPD's Amazon chatbot is evidently chock-a-block with the latest and greatest technology in artificial stupidity algos:
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Neven

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Re: Algorithms of Hate - Redux
« Reply #17 on: March 03, 2019, 11:08:27 AM »
All you have to do now, is hurl racist invective at the Amazon and DPD chatbots/people, and you're back on-topic again.  ;D
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Jim Hunt

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Re: Algorithms of Hate - Redux
« Reply #18 on: March 03, 2019, 11:13:59 PM »
Surprisingly my books, bulbs etc. were not delivered today despite yesterday's promises. Late this afternoon I hurled no invective whatsoever at a nice DPD customer services lady from West Scotland, who informed me she couldn't get their Roche depot to answer the phone no matter how hard she tried. Perhaps I'll get back on topic tomorrow?

By this time the worst of Storm Freya had abated a tad. A brisk walk across the fields revealed some lambs that wanted to play with us whilst their mums tried to chase us away:
« Last Edit: March 04, 2019, 10:34:09 AM by Jim Hunt »
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Jim Hunt

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Re: Algorithms of Hate - Redux
« Reply #19 on: March 04, 2019, 10:11:22 AM »
We must denounce the idea of speech as violence

Thanks for the information Lurk
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Jim Hunt

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Re: Algorithms of Hate - Redux
« Reply #20 on: March 04, 2019, 10:32:30 AM »
My eagerly awaited book on the Algorithms of Hate has apparently been on a tour of Cornwall and is now back at DPD's depot in Roche once again:
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Re: Algorithms of Hate - Redux
« Reply #21 on: March 04, 2019, 10:50:25 AM »
Ex Prof. Judy reckons this is worth reading:

"The Politics, Science, and Politicized Science of Climate Change" by Edward Ring

In case you are of a delicate constitution please be aware that clicking the above link will lead you to an archive of the web site for "American Greatness".

The link at the very top is much more family friendly!
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Jim Hunt

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Re: Algorithms of Hate - Redux
« Reply #22 on: March 04, 2019, 11:03:41 AM »
Is that an argument for or against mandated identity disclosure ?

Neither really, although perhaps Neven's mileage varies?

Sticking within the "CAGW" vertical for the moment, it seems to me entirely reasonable that an Exxon whistleblower, for example, should not have her/his identity disclosed.

However being able to automatically "ignore" run of the mill ClimateBall ™ players who don't have a verified real identity seems to me to be a brilliant idea. Perhaps I should patent it?
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Jim Hunt

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Re: Algorithms of Hate - Redux
« Reply #23 on: March 04, 2019, 12:21:39 PM »
11:00 UTC on March 4th has now come and gone.

Whilst I have just received an email about a "FedEx Delivery For You" from a "CANADA-DRUGSTORE" there has still been no missive from Amazon and/or DPD about either Kasia's or my brown cardboard box of goodies.
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Re: Algorithms of Hate - Redux
« Reply #24 on: March 04, 2019, 05:09:21 PM »
11:00 UTC on March 4th has now come and gone.

At 14:20 I finally had a call from the manager responsible for "customer services" at DPD's Roche depot. Based on the GPS records of their "weekend driver" it seems he attempted delivery 200 yards away from our location and didn't bother to call us for directions.

Our urgently required packages aren't on a van today. DPD's "weekday driver" will give it another go tomorrow.
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b_lumenkraft

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Re: Algorithms of Hate - Redux
« Reply #25 on: March 04, 2019, 05:41:47 PM »
Good luck this time Jim! *fingers crossed*

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Re: Algorithms of Hate - Redux
« Reply #26 on: March 04, 2019, 09:12:08 PM »
Re: ignoring those without verified identity

There is an ignore list available on this forum.

sidd

Jim Hunt

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Re: Algorithms of Hate - Redux
« Reply #27 on: March 05, 2019, 12:24:32 AM »
There is an ignore list available on this forum.

I am aware of that sidd.

However I think you will find that the self same ignore list won't work on ex Prof. Judy's site or "Snow White's" blog for example.
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Re: Algorithms of Hate - Redux
« Reply #28 on: March 05, 2019, 01:45:08 AM »
Re: no killfile on internet fora

So perhaps write one yourself, or hire someone to write it for you. I cobbled together one for realclimate on a sunday afternoon. These days, if i really need a killfile for website comments,  i just feed them into an nntp server and use the very powerful killfiles available in nntp newsreaders. A truly twisted friend of mine feeds comments into email, and has trained clamav to killfile. Another claims success with just a bayesian classifier.

Go to town.

sidd



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Re: Algorithms of Hate - Redux
« Reply #29 on: March 05, 2019, 11:42:12 AM »
I got a refund from DHL today.
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Jim Hunt

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Re: Algorithms of Hate - Redux
« Reply #30 on: March 05, 2019, 12:40:35 PM »
I got a refund from DHL today.

Do you suppose that the DPD pigs will finally take flight later today?
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Re: Algorithms of Hate - Redux
« Reply #31 on: March 06, 2019, 08:15:42 AM »
A new day dawns; hope springs eternal in the hearts of all those eagerly awaiting packages. I feel personally invested in this saga, Jim. Now I have an urge to buy the same book, via Amazon of course, and see what happens! This could become a thread all of its own... Next instalment keenly awaited!
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Re: Algorithms of Hate - Redux
« Reply #32 on: March 06, 2019, 10:03:53 AM »
This could become a thread all of its own... Next instalment keenly awaited!

Your wish is my command! Yesterday DPD kindly informed us that our deliveries would be attempted for a second time later that afternoon.

We had already informed them that we would be out. Kasia had to go to the once Great British Department for Work and Pensions in Plymouth to see a woman about a National Insurance Number. An ultimately pointless exercise as it turned out.

On the return journey we stopped at a somewhat sodden Cotehele to try and admire the view. What do you suppose we found ascending the hill as we began our descent? On enquiring we discovered that the driver was indeed from the Roche depot, but sadly had not been tracking our GPS position and was therefore not in a position to finally deliver those long awaited books.

Back on topic real soon now, I promise!
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Jim Hunt

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Re: Algorithms of Hate - Redux
« Reply #33 on: March 07, 2019, 04:15:04 PM »
Back on topic RSN I promise, but the Amazon saga continues......

We recorded the unboxing as part of the first Great White Con video update of 2019. Whether that sees the light of day in its current form remains to be seen, since I became rather flustered as the contents of Amazon's cardboard box were revealed. The book I've been so patiently waiting all this time for was soaked in what I assumed at the time to be water.

Further inspection revealed that in actual fact it was peanut oil!
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Re: Algorithms of Hate - Redux
« Reply #34 on: March 07, 2019, 05:21:17 PM »
You couldn't make it up...
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Re: Algorithms of Hate - Redux
« Reply #35 on: March 08, 2019, 02:11:28 PM »
So you ordered a book and some peanut butter from them?
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Re: Algorithms of Hate - Redux
« Reply #36 on: March 08, 2019, 03:15:02 PM »
So you ordered a book and some peanut butter from them?

No, the Algorithm of Hate suggested to add the peanut butter, just to aggravate Jim further. 'Make sure to leave the lid off,' it said, with an undertone of robot humor.  ;)
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Re: Algorithms of Hate - Redux
« Reply #37 on: March 09, 2019, 07:55:51 PM »
No, the Algorithm of Hate suggested to add the peanut butter, just to aggravate Jim further.

The video recording of an aggravated Jim:

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Re: Algorithms of Hate - Redux
« Reply #38 on: March 10, 2019, 02:15:10 PM »
Hey Jim. 'The Ceremonial Unboxing' is...well, priceless, I think is the right word? I must say, I was chuffed by your 'shout out' - but it bears repeating: you couldn't make it up...
My brother-in-law works as a customer service agent for Amazon, as it happens. I wonder would escalation be possible? 
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Jim Hunt

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Re: Algorithms of Hate - Redux
« Reply #39 on: March 10, 2019, 02:37:46 PM »
My brother-in-law works as a customer service agent for Amazon, as it happens. I wonder would escalation be possible?

We're certainly endeavouring to do so from this end! How much noise would we have to make before the sound reached your brother-in-law? Or is he merely one of many minions in an anonymous call centre?
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Re: Algorithms of Hate - Redux
« Reply #40 on: March 10, 2019, 10:46:56 PM »
Good question. Dunno actually. I might have a little chat and see...
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Jim Hunt

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Re: Algorithms of Hate - Redux
« Reply #41 on: March 17, 2019, 11:26:43 AM »
Algorithms of Hate?

I'm sure info about the NZ terrorist shooting belongs here.

It seems so. According to the New York Times:

Quote
A camera mounted to his head, the gunman who livestreamed part of his savage attack on two mosques in Christchurch, New Zealand, on Friday began his video by casually making reference to a current internet meme.

The gunman appeared to pair the shooting with the typical trolling tactics of the internet’s most far-right instigators, playing to a community of like-minded supporters online who cheered him on in real time as they watched bodies pile up. And the manifesto states plainly what usually goes unstated by internet trolls: By design, its author wanted to get everyone upset and arguing with each other.

One of the goals of his bloodshed, he wrote, was to “agitate the political enemies of my people into action, to cause them to overextend their own hand and experience the eventual and inevitable backlash as a result.” He said he wanted to “incite violence, retaliation and further divide.”
Reality is merely an illusion, albeit a very persistent one - Albert Einstein