Support the Arctic Sea Ice Forum and Blog

Author Topic: Brexit...  (Read 17567 times)

etienne

  • Grease ice
  • Posts: 772
    • View Profile
    • About energy
  • Liked: 54
  • Likes Given: 1
Re: Brexit...
« Reply #100 on: June 09, 2019, 10:50:36 AM »
 Do you know Campione d'Italia? A part of Italy that is economically integrated in Switzerland. Maybe that could be a model.

Tom_Mazanec

  • Nilas ice
  • Posts: 1731
    • View Profile
    • Planet Mazanec
  • Liked: 395
  • Likes Given: 67
Re: Brexit...
« Reply #101 on: June 22, 2019, 07:24:17 PM »
How US climate deniers are working with far-right racists to hijack Brexit for Big Oil:
https://mondediplo.com/outsidein/brexit-climate-deniers
SHARKS (CROSSED OUT) MONGEESE (SIC) WITH FRICKIN LASER BEAMS ATTACHED TO THEIR HEADS

RealityCheck

  • Frazil ice
  • Posts: 132
    • View Profile
  • Liked: 27
  • Likes Given: 5
Re: Brexit...
« Reply #102 on: July 01, 2019, 11:08:26 AM »
As we approach the Tory leadership race end-game, this article by Fintan O'Toole, writer for the Irish Times & Guardian papers, offers an important perspective from the Irish point of view.

'Johnson and Hunt don’t understand what it’s like when a wall falls. In Ireland, we do'

https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2019/jun/30/boris-johnson-jeremy-hunt-do-not-understand-what-it-is-like-when-wall-falls-northern-ireland-brexit

It also highlights the disconnect between the positioning of the 2 potential leaders relative to the legal position as set out by both British law and international treaties like the Good Friday Agreement. There is a classic 'rock and hard place' dilemma that is crystallising - and will only get worse as the October deadline approaches.

In the words of Gerontocrat (and Monty Python): 'My theory that belongs to me' is that Europe will not agree to any further extension of the Brexit deadline; that new PM Johnson will be unable to get Parliament agreement on anything; a general election might well result, leading to more confusion; there will be no time to do anything meaningful after the dust settles; and an 'accidental' hard Brexit is a high likelihood - with everyone then blaming everyone else for the mess. Then Ireland gets caught in the cross-fire.

Once more, I hope I am wrong...but nothing points to that right now.

PS @etienne above re a model for a solution: I know such suggestions might seem attractive and sensible to external observers. However, the model we have established in Ireland has been custom-designed to address the historic difficulties between two very polarised communities in Northern Ireland. It is not perfect by any means, but it was hard-won and is underpinned by an international treaty. It can not be casually discarded simply for the domestic political expediency of the party leading a minority-government in GB, that is in turn supported by a small party drawn from the hardliners of one of those 2 communities in NI.
Sic transit gloria mundi

etienne

  • Grease ice
  • Posts: 772
    • View Profile
    • About energy
  • Liked: 54
  • Likes Given: 1
Re: Brexit...
« Reply #103 on: July 07, 2019, 09:23:41 AM »
For North Ireland, from outside of the UK, I really don't see any other solution than to have different political and economical boundaries. Politics will insure fair treatment of the pro UK people and economics is a fight for everybody.  I don't see how North Ireland could be economically successful disconnected on one side by a political border, and on the other side by a sea. Furthermore borders have high maintenance and supervision costs.

pikaia

  • Frazil ice
  • Posts: 304
    • View Profile
  • Liked: 35
  • Likes Given: 34
Re: Brexit...
« Reply #104 on: July 07, 2019, 09:41:05 AM »
I don't understand the Irish border problem. Both the UK and the Republic want an open border, and the other 26 members do not use the border, so why do they care about it?

Pmt111500

  • Nilas ice
  • Posts: 1889
  • Yes, I do not always bicycle
    • View Profile
  • Liked: 99
  • Likes Given: 31
Re: Brexit...
« Reply #105 on: July 07, 2019, 10:27:05 AM »
I don't understand the Irish border problem. Both the UK and the Republic want an open border, and the other 26 members do not use the border, so why do they care about it?

Well, Ireland would be used to smuggle contraband into EU. The situation would be the same in US if say New Mexico opened borders with Mexico. Or rather, if Florida didn't do border checks on ships.
Cooling the outside by heat pump.

pikaia

  • Frazil ice
  • Posts: 304
    • View Profile
  • Liked: 35
  • Likes Given: 34
Re: Brexit...
« Reply #106 on: July 07, 2019, 11:17:47 AM »
Well, Ireland would be used to smuggle contraband into EU. The situation would be the same in US if say New Mexico opened borders with Mexico. Or rather, if Florida didn't do border checks on ships.
But the contraband would first have to be smuggled into the UK, specifically Northern Ireland, so I don't see how life would be any easier for the smugglers!

BeeKnees

  • Frazil ice
  • Posts: 101
    • View Profile
  • Liked: 14
  • Likes Given: 47
Re: Brexit...
« Reply #107 on: July 07, 2019, 02:49:23 PM »
Depends what you mean by contraband.  The UK could import goods from anywhere in the world, if they set their tariffs low then those goods would be much cheaper than in Ireland so people would smuggle goods across to undercut EU tariff rates.

Same with standards, the UK could accept poorer quality goods and so open a market to get those goods into Ireland and undercut the higher quality goods accepted in the EU.




RealityCheck

  • Frazil ice
  • Posts: 132
    • View Profile
  • Liked: 27
  • Likes Given: 5
Re: Brexit...
« Reply #108 on: July 08, 2019, 07:50:05 PM »
For North Ireland, from outside of the UK, I really don't see any other solution than to have different political and economical boundaries. Politics will insure fair treatment of the pro UK people and economics is a fight for everybody.  I don't see how North Ireland could be economically successful disconnected on one side by a political border, and on the other side by a sea. Furthermore borders have high maintenance and supervision costs.

Ironically, in practise there are already 'special arrangements' in operation to smooth the economic interactions across the border, in many areas of the economy, under the terms of the Good Friday Agreement. This means there is already a blurring of the meaning of 'border' - which is one of the reasons we have a peace in Ireland...  the area if cattle movement and bovine disease control, for example. But this reality is not welcomed by certain segments of the political sphere in NI...
Sic transit gloria mundi

b_lumenkraft

  • Guest
Re: Brexit...
« Reply #109 on: July 11, 2019, 09:55:45 PM »
MP's Make No Deal Harder by Backing Grieve's Amendment - Brexit Explained


b_lumenkraft

  • Guest
Re: Brexit...
« Reply #110 on: July 12, 2019, 06:31:28 PM »

longwalks1

  • New ice
  • Posts: 92
    • View Profile
  • Liked: 13
  • Likes Given: 5
Re: Brexit...
« Reply #111 on: July 12, 2019, 10:14:20 PM »
Via PlanetDebian

https://www.earth.li/~noodles/blog/2019/07/ni-embarrassed.html

These are some thoughts of a FOSS professional who has returned to live in his birthplace of Northern Ireland.

Quote
First, we have the usual bonfire issues. I’m all for setting things on fire while having a drink, but when your bonfire is so big it leads to nearby flat residents being evacuated to a youth hostel for the night or you decide that adding 1800 tyres to your bonfire is a great idea, it’s time to question whether you’re celebrating your cultural identity while respecting those around you, or just a clampit (thanks, @Bolster). If you’re starting to displace people from their homes, or releasing lots of noxious fumes that are a risk to your health and that of your local community you need to take a hard look at the message you’re sending out.

Quote
it’s been 907 days since Northern Ireland had a government.

sidd

  • Young ice
  • Posts: 4987
    • View Profile
  • Liked: 389
  • Likes Given: 0
Re: Brexit...
« Reply #112 on: July 13, 2019, 08:52:13 AM »
In N Ireland, it's legal to burn tires on a bonfire ?

In the USA you need a facility approved to burn tires, (I know of a few, lotsa permits involved)

If anyone does it otherwise in the USA they better hope that a DNR or EPA person ain't cruising around.  Or that one of their neighbours who smell it and see the plume don;t drop a dime on them.

sidd

RealityCheck

  • Frazil ice
  • Posts: 132
    • View Profile
  • Liked: 27
  • Likes Given: 5
Re: Brexit...
« Reply #113 on: July 13, 2019, 09:20:35 AM »
No Sidd, tyres on bonfires are illegal there, just as it should be... However, in the sectarian tinderbox called Northern Ireland, attempts to interfere with bonfires for the 12th July have resulted in death threats to the contractors supposed to remove one very dangerous stack of timber pallets etc,  from the East Belfast brigade of the UVF - Ulster Volunteer Force - just this week ie this is current, not in the distant past. So the police backed off, the bonfire was lit, and that was it. And good luck prosecuting anyone for their tyre-burning... All this to 'celebrate' a battle victory hundreds of years ago, by a protestant army over a catholic one, at the Battle of the Boyne.

This is the real life context for potential Brexit impact on the fragile peace in NI...and the concerns I express hereabouts...
Sic transit gloria mundi

RealityCheck

  • Frazil ice
  • Posts: 132
    • View Profile
  • Liked: 27
  • Likes Given: 5
Re: Brexit...
« Reply #114 on: July 13, 2019, 09:24:44 AM »
Oh yes, and dropping a dime on someone in NI has historically got your knees shot for you, or worse...
(PS 'Dropping a dime on someone' = informing on them via a phone call to police, by the way... in case it wasn't clear..)
« Last Edit: July 13, 2019, 05:57:33 PM by RealityCheck »
Sic transit gloria mundi

b_lumenkraft

  • Guest
Re: Brexit...
« Reply #115 on: July 13, 2019, 02:36:06 PM »
Will The UK Pay £39 Billion to the EU? - Brexit Explained


RealityCheck

  • Frazil ice
  • Posts: 132
    • View Profile
  • Liked: 27
  • Likes Given: 5
Re: Brexit...
« Reply #116 on: July 13, 2019, 06:06:42 PM »
As if to make my point, this article today in the Guardian.

NI's police chief warns of consequences of hard Brexit. The rising level of alarm about this in Ireland is palpable in political, economic and security sectors...

https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2019/jul/13/psni-chief-constable-says-hard-brexit-would-be-absolutely-detrimental
Sic transit gloria mundi

vox_mundi

  • Nilas ice
  • Posts: 1757
    • View Profile
  • Liked: 745
  • Likes Given: 116
Re: Brexit...
« Reply #117 on: July 29, 2019, 03:33:09 AM »
“There are three classes of people: those who see. Those who see when they are shown. Those who do not see.” ― Leonardo da Vinci

Insensible before the wave so soon released by callous fate. Affected most, they understand the least, and understanding, when it comes, invariably arrives too late

RealityCheck

  • Frazil ice
  • Posts: 132
    • View Profile
  • Liked: 27
  • Likes Given: 5
Re: Brexit...
« Reply #118 on: July 29, 2019, 08:44:08 AM »
That about sums it up!
Sic transit gloria mundi

be cause

  • Grease ice
  • Posts: 892
  • Citizenship .. a Lurker gets asylum
    • View Profile
  • Liked: 262
  • Likes Given: 219
Re: Brexit...
« Reply #119 on: July 29, 2019, 11:40:11 AM »
Britain warns Ireland will go hungry after a hard Brexit .. lovely threat to a country where the British caused a famine or three .. b.c.
2007 + 5 = 2012 + 4 = 2016 + 3 = 2019 ...

BeeKnees

  • Frazil ice
  • Posts: 101
    • View Profile
  • Liked: 14
  • Likes Given: 47
Re: Brexit...
« Reply #120 on: July 29, 2019, 12:32:49 PM »
Britain warns Ireland will go hungry after a hard Brexit .. lovely threat to a country where the British caused a famine or three .. b.c.
Not the whole of Britain,
Just the far right fruitcake little Englanders that have taken control of our government.   

They make me sick with their desire to do harm to our neighbours while throwing us under a bus in the process. 

RealityCheck

  • Frazil ice
  • Posts: 132
    • View Profile
  • Liked: 27
  • Likes Given: 5
Re: Brexit...
« Reply #121 on: July 30, 2019, 10:32:05 PM »
An update based on events in the past week.  The week when Boris became PM, has said he is happy to compromise provided he gets what he wants first, and has appointed a hardline 'Brexit' cabinet.
This article summarises the potential for and likely impact of a no-deal brexit, now considered much more likely on all sides...

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2019/jul/30/no-deal-brexit-how-likely-is-it-what-would-be-impact

As a by-product, a split-up of the UK itself is also more likely...
Sic transit gloria mundi

RealityCheck

  • Frazil ice
  • Posts: 132
    • View Profile
  • Liked: 27
  • Likes Given: 5
Re: Brexit...
« Reply #122 on: July 30, 2019, 10:41:20 PM »
Britain warns Ireland will go hungry after a hard Brexit .. lovely threat to a country where the British caused a famine or three .. b.c.
To be fair, the story of famine in Ireland has many facets. 'Caused' is a strong term. The potato blight was the proximate cause in the 1840s. And noble efforts were made in some quarters in the UK to alleviate the suffering. But there was also much cruelty inflicted, it is true.

However, yes, the level of tone deafness in such comments from UK sources does betray a shocking degree of cultural insensitivity... The 'Great Hunger' (as it is known in Irish) lies only one or two layers below the surface of the Irish psyche all the time...
Sic transit gloria mundi

RealityCheck

  • Frazil ice
  • Posts: 132
    • View Profile
  • Liked: 27
  • Likes Given: 5
Re: Brexit...
« Reply #123 on: August 10, 2019, 03:02:27 PM »
The linked article reports on interviews with Irish former senior civil servants and diplomats that are revealing, and also offer important historical context for brexit. Ireland has dealt with many tough times in Anglo-Irish relations in the past. As the Johnson Govt manipulates towards an early election, and likely hard brexit, I am sure we in the Republic will just knuckle down to coping and adapting. It's going to be tougher for folks in NI though...economically and politically...

Britain has always struggled to take Ireland seriously, say Irish ex-diplomats (via @IrishTimes) https://www.irishtimes.com/news/politics/britain-has-always-struggled-to-take-ireland-seriously-say-irish-ex-diplomats-1.3981993
« Last Edit: August 11, 2019, 12:02:41 AM by RealityCheck »
Sic transit gloria mundi

RealityCheck

  • Frazil ice
  • Posts: 132
    • View Profile
  • Liked: 27
  • Likes Given: 5
Re: Brexit...
« Reply #124 on: August 11, 2019, 12:50:56 AM »
Just out of curiosity, I checked Paddy Power's odds viz Brexit just now. Seems they think:
1. Brexit will happen in 2019: odds yes 8/13; no 6/5
2. A 2nd brexit referendum is not likely in 2019: odds no 1/25; yes 15/2
3. Article 50 (the decision to leave the EU) will not be revoked by end of 2020: odds no 4/11; yes 2/1
BUT
4. A no-deal brexit in 2019 is not likely: odds no 1/2; yes 7/5

Now, for the last one, 'no' includes 3 ways it could be avoided: withdrawal agreement is ratified; article 50 extended beyond 2019; or article 50 is revoked in 2019. Seems to me, taking other odds at nr 3 above into account, plus the hardline noise from the new PM, any of these might be tough to achieve... I can't help wondering 'do they know something we don't...?'

Check it out...https://www.paddypower.com/politics/uk-brexit

PS Odds correct at time of posting, of course - how will they change I wonder? 😁
Sic transit gloria mundi

RealityCheck

  • Frazil ice
  • Posts: 132
    • View Profile
  • Liked: 27
  • Likes Given: 5
Re: Brexit...
« Reply #125 on: August 17, 2019, 10:19:54 AM »
Here's a helpful guide to understanding the different names used for the places involved in Brexit... from the perspective of a confused Irishman. 😁

Sic transit gloria mundi

RealityCheck

  • Frazil ice
  • Posts: 132
    • View Profile
  • Liked: 27
  • Likes Given: 5
Re: Brexit...
« Reply #126 on: August 17, 2019, 10:22:53 AM »
And here is the latest Brexit weather forecast...
Sic transit gloria mundi

crandles

  • Young ice
  • Posts: 2552
    • View Profile
  • Liked: 113
  • Likes Given: 47
Re: Brexit...
« Reply #127 on: August 17, 2019, 12:34:46 PM »
Just out of curiosity, I checked Paddy Power's odds viz Brexit just now. Seems they think:
1. Brexit will happen in 2019: odds yes 8/13; no 6/5
2. A 2nd brexit referendum is not likely in 2019: odds no 1/25; yes 15/2
3. Article 50 (the decision to leave the EU) will not be revoked by end of 2020: odds no 4/11; yes 2/1
BUT
4. A no-deal brexit in 2019 is not likely: odds no 1/2; yes 7/5

Now, for the last one, 'no' includes 3 ways it could be avoided: withdrawal agreement is ratified; article 50 extended beyond 2019; or article 50 is revoked in 2019. Seems to me, taking other odds at nr 3 above into account, plus the hardline noise from the new PM, any of these might be tough to achieve... I can't help wondering 'do they know something we don't...?'

Check it out...https://www.paddypower.com/politics/uk-brexit

PS Odds correct at time of posting, of course - how will they change I wonder? 😁

Not quite sure what you think is strange here.

>plus the hardline noise from the new PM
Possibly means he won't stay in charge?

Parliament numbers haven't changed still no majority for anything, but fewest in favour of no deal.

A 2nd brexit referendum before 2020 is just an interest rate effect, takes 22 weeks minimum for a referendum and probably not going to have one in last 2 weeks of December.

On betfair:
brexit date before 2020 4/5

So further delay still quite likely.

How the majority of MPs stop a no deal brexit still seems pretty unclear but no-one wants to compromise so when they get down to their last chance perhaps they will rally around that chance.



RealityCheck

  • Frazil ice
  • Posts: 132
    • View Profile
  • Liked: 27
  • Likes Given: 5
Re: Brexit...
« Reply #128 on: August 17, 2019, 01:01:21 PM »
Yeah, maybe so Crandles. I hope so...
I guess its the lack of any clear pathway that I find hard to rationalise...
Sic transit gloria mundi

RealityCheck

  • Frazil ice
  • Posts: 132
    • View Profile
  • Liked: 27
  • Likes Given: 5
Re: Brexit...
« Reply #129 on: August 30, 2019, 10:01:49 AM »
GB is not happy with the PM's little stunt of trying to suspend parliament. And he has brought Her Majesty into it as well, putting her in probably the most uncomfortable constitutional spot she's ever dealt with. Meanwhile, Ireland's govt is treating No Deal Brexit as the most likely outcome. Will the anti-no deal forces stop it in GB? It's like a high-stakes version of Yes, Prime Minister crossed with Blackadder...
Sic transit gloria mundi

Pmt111500

  • Nilas ice
  • Posts: 1889
  • Yes, I do not always bicycle
    • View Profile
  • Liked: 99
  • Likes Given: 31
Re: Brexit...
« Reply #130 on: August 30, 2019, 10:44:28 AM »
Cooling the outside by heat pump.

RealityCheck

  • Frazil ice
  • Posts: 132
    • View Profile
  • Liked: 27
  • Likes Given: 5
Re: Brexit...
« Reply #131 on: August 30, 2019, 12:06:57 PM »
First legal challenge to suspending parliament in UK has failed.
https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2019/aug/30/boris-johnson-prorogue-parliament-scottish-judge
Sic transit gloria mundi

Pmt111500

  • Nilas ice
  • Posts: 1889
  • Yes, I do not always bicycle
    • View Profile
  • Liked: 99
  • Likes Given: 31
Re: Brexit...
« Reply #132 on: August 30, 2019, 01:17:51 PM »
First legal challenge to suspending parliament in UK has failed.
https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2019/aug/30/boris-johnson-prorogue-parliament-scottish-judge
That's not of course a surprise as he may get a position in the houae of lords afterwards
Cooling the outside by heat pump.

pikaia

  • Frazil ice
  • Posts: 304
    • View Profile
  • Liked: 35
  • Likes Given: 34
Re: Brexit...
« Reply #133 on: August 30, 2019, 01:32:06 PM »
BoJo declares his opposition to proroguing parliament.

https://twitter.com/i/status/1166778190200758272

crandles

  • Young ice
  • Posts: 2552
    • View Profile
  • Liked: 113
  • Likes Given: 47
Re: Brexit...
« Reply #134 on: August 30, 2019, 03:23:57 PM »
BoJo declares his opposition to proroguing parliament.

https://twitter.com/i/status/1166778190200758272

Yeah .... but but but ... that was proroguing parliament to force a no deal through whereas what has happened is proroguing parliament to reduce time available for opposition to pass a law to prevent a no deal exit.  ;) :P

TerryM

  • First-year ice
  • Posts: 5436
    • View Profile
  • Liked: 540
  • Likes Given: 5
Re: Brexit...
« Reply #135 on: August 30, 2019, 04:14:26 PM »
My Avatar is of me Peacefully Protesting Proroguing Parliament here in Canada a few years back. It's one of the least democratic things we do.


Terry

be cause

  • Grease ice
  • Posts: 892
  • Citizenship .. a Lurker gets asylum
    • View Profile
  • Liked: 262
  • Likes Given: 219
Re: Brexit...
« Reply #136 on: August 30, 2019, 11:47:22 PM »
my 91 yr old mum's daily question .. what is brexit ?  I explain again and remind her she voted for it .. b.c.
2007 + 5 = 2012 + 4 = 2016 + 3 = 2019 ...

be cause

  • Grease ice
  • Posts: 892
  • Citizenship .. a Lurker gets asylum
    • View Profile
  • Liked: 262
  • Likes Given: 219
Re: Brexit...
« Reply #137 on: September 04, 2019, 09:55:59 PM »
It is many years since I have enjoyed politics so much as the last 2 days in Westminster .. to see right honourable members and bastards combine in pure theatre as sterling rises and falls with every report from the battlefield .
  Now Jess Phillips .. I love it ... b.c.

 ps . horrifying to realise that the millions of EU residents living in the UK had no vote in the Brexit referendum which so dramatically affects them . So much for our democracy .
2007 + 5 = 2012 + 4 = 2016 + 3 = 2019 ...

pikaia

  • Frazil ice
  • Posts: 304
    • View Profile
  • Liked: 35
  • Likes Given: 34
Re: Brexit...
« Reply #138 on: September 05, 2019, 09:46:29 AM »

Jim Hunt

  • Young ice
  • Posts: 4289
    • View Profile
    • The Arctic sea ice Great White Con
  • Liked: 274
  • Likes Given: 28
Re: Brexit...
« Reply #139 on: September 10, 2019, 03:07:13 AM »
I've just been watching the "mother of parliaments" in action for the last time for 5 weeks:

https://parliamentlive.tv/event/index/912439c0-627c-4f85-a4ba-14c533a880dd?in=01:18:00:0020190910&out=01:50:00:0020190910

Click on "Prorogation" in the index when you get bored. See also:

https://twitter.com/HannahB4LiviMP/status/1171227464649117697

Reality is merely an illusion, albeit a very persistent one - Albert Einstein

vox_mundi

  • Nilas ice
  • Posts: 1757
    • View Profile
  • Liked: 745
  • Likes Given: 116
Re: Brexit...
« Reply #140 on: September 11, 2019, 10:52:38 PM »
Brexit: UK Government Publishes Worst-Case Scenario for No-Deal Exit
https://dw.com/en/brexit-uk-government-publishes-worst-case-scenario-for-no-deal/a-50391072
https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2019/sep/11/operation-yellowhammer-fears-no-deal-brexit-chaos-forced-to-publish-secret-papers

The UK government on Wednesday published "Operation Yellowhammer," its planning scenario for a no-deal Brexit.

https://assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/831199/20190802_Latest_Yellowhammer_Planning_assumptions_CDL.pdf

The report, which dates from August 2, paints a damning picture of the disruptive effects of a deal should the UK leave the EU without an agreement on October 31.

The key points:

The UK will revert to "third world country" status and the relationship with the EU will be "on the whole unsympathetic," with a range of potential effects, including:

- Cross-channel traffic being cut by 40-60% within a day, with disruption lasting 3 months.

- Protests taking place across the country, placing a strain on police resources.

- Financial services and the sharing of law enforcement and personal data being disrupted.

- Small and medium sized business being unable to cope.

- Severe weather in winter potentially exacerbating negative impacts.

...

The food sector would be hit in a matter of weeks, if not days, due to its reliance on free-movement and non-tariff trade within the EU, protected by high tariffs on goods coming from outside the trading bloc.

Up to 282 EU vessels could enter UK waters on the first day, leading to anger and even violent clashes with UK fishing boats.

Any workers, students, travelers and pensioners in the EU would immediately lose their access to healthcare, which is currently funded in the EU via the UK’s National Health Service.
“There are three classes of people: those who see. Those who see when they are shown. Those who do not see.” ― Leonardo da Vinci

Insensible before the wave so soon released by callous fate. Affected most, they understand the least, and understanding, when it comes, invariably arrives too late

philopek

  • Frazil ice
  • Posts: 463
    • View Profile
  • Liked: 209
  • Likes Given: 40
Re: Brexit...
« Reply #141 on: September 11, 2019, 11:03:13 PM »
The UK will revert to "third world country" status .....

This is exactly the kind of exaggeration that makes all the rest that is 100% accurate useless, not trustworthy, looking not serious or however else one wants to name it.

The general meaning/warning that it will have dire impacts on the UK first and some others as well is absolutely spot on and cannot be repeated many enough times, but never ever will this put the UK back to third world level or status.

Fearmongering does only serve the deniers at the end of the game. One proven argument that they can use to say: "See, it didn't happen, all busllshit what they're trying to tell you...." is enough
to make those morons succeed first, to win a battle, only to lose the war later at huge costs for the general population in that country or in many countries, depending how far they get.

I hope that it won't need each country go through that separately until everyone got it (perhaps)

Jim Hunt

  • Young ice
  • Posts: 4289
    • View Profile
    • The Arctic sea ice Great White Con
  • Liked: 274
  • Likes Given: 28
Re: Brexit...
« Reply #142 on: September 11, 2019, 11:04:21 PM »
The UK will revert to "third world country" status

Wishful thinking on your part? The correct quote is:

Quote
The UK reverts fully to "third country" status

Meanwhile according to the BBC the Scottish Courts have ruled that BoJo has been feeding Her Majesty porkie pies:

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-49661855

Quote
The Court of Session judges were unanimous in finding that Mr Johnson was motivated by the "improper purpose of stymieing Parliament", and he had effectively misled the Queen in advising her to suspend Parliament.
P.S. It seems philopek and I were typing at the same time
Reality is merely an illusion, albeit a very persistent one - Albert Einstein

philopek

  • Frazil ice
  • Posts: 463
    • View Profile
  • Liked: 209
  • Likes Given: 40
Re: Brexit...
« Reply #143 on: September 11, 2019, 11:28:03 PM »

Quote
The UK reverts fully to "third country" status

P.S. It seems philopek and I were typing at the same time

Yep and your presenting the correct quote is the better choice of course, thanks.

pikaia

  • Frazil ice
  • Posts: 304
    • View Profile
  • Liked: 35
  • Likes Given: 34
Re: Brexit...
« Reply #144 on: September 13, 2019, 10:19:35 AM »
Yellowhammer is an anagram of Orwell Mayhem. :)

Jim Hunt

  • Young ice
  • Posts: 4289
    • View Profile
    • The Arctic sea ice Great White Con
  • Liked: 274
  • Likes Given: 28
Re: Brexit...
« Reply #145 on: September 13, 2019, 12:42:01 PM »
Charles the First. Boris the Next?

https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2019-09-12/will-brexit-trigger-england-s-second-civil-war

Quote
Lawmakers this week channeled an event from the runup to the civil war in the House of Commons to protest the so-called prorogation of the legislature. Brexit Party leader Nigel Farage, one of the main architects of the vote to leave the EU, has described the present constitutional crisis as the worst since that tumultuous period.

“If we get out of the current impasse without shots being fired, we will be doing better than I expected,” said Diane Purkiss, author of “The English Civil War: A People’s History” and a professor of English literature at Oxford University. “The question from here is whether we can at the last minute and in the eleventh hour muddle together some kind of final British compromise.”
Reality is merely an illusion, albeit a very persistent one - Albert Einstein

longwalks1

  • New ice
  • Posts: 92
    • View Profile
  • Liked: 13
  • Likes Given: 5
Re: Brexit...
« Reply #146 on: September 14, 2019, 07:24:07 PM »
A decent book (monograph actually) about Charles 1 - open sourced via Distrbiuted Prodf Readers Canada and found at fadedpage.com

Charles I and Cromwell
Young, G. M. (George Malcolm)

https://www.fadedpage.com/showbook.php?pid=20120622

Quote
Wars don't generally start, let alone end, precisely as foreseen. This was particularly true of the English Civil War. Young's learned and attractively written monograph sheds light on what happened, and why.

I think it is somewhat denigrating to Charles 1 to compare him to BoJo.  I spent 17 days in Ireland and saw first hand some of Cromwells destruction centuries later.  I despise instensely Cromwell, but BoJo can not shield himself from his megalomania with the cloak of a warped Christianty and selective reading of the Bible, BoJo is just flat out evil. 

BoJo should just go into some pub in Callan, Ireland and ask them their opinions about a non-backstop Brexit. 

etienne

  • Grease ice
  • Posts: 772
    • View Profile
    • About energy
  • Liked: 54
  • Likes Given: 1
Re: Brexit...
« Reply #147 on: September 15, 2019, 03:38:33 PM »
Didn't the Jo Cox murder have anything to do with the Brexit?

crandles

  • Young ice
  • Posts: 2552
    • View Profile
  • Liked: 113
  • Likes Given: 47
Re: Brexit...
« Reply #148 on: September 15, 2019, 04:23:30 PM »
Murdered a week before referendum and murderer shouted "Britain first". You could say there are a few hints of brexit being relevant to the murder. But I think we should stick with blaming far right and be careful to stay away from anything that might appear to be trying to tar vast majority of brexiteers with any link.

johnm33

  • Nilas ice
  • Posts: 1295
    • View Profile
  • Liked: 88
  • Likes Given: 43
Re: Brexit...
« Reply #149 on: September 16, 2019, 02:36:23 PM »
Some of the horrors of the 'withdrawal agreement' listed below courtesy of the spectator. For me the worst of it is that despite denials from both 'our' and EU politicians during the referendum campaign an EU army is being formed who's only two rationales are suppression of dissent within, that is occupation of any dissenting regimes with 'foriegn' troops and EU war with Russia which would prove hard to bring about with independant soveriegn Eurpoean governments.
https://blogs.spectator.co.uk/2018/11/the-top-40-horrors-lurking-in-the-small-print-of-theresa-mays-brexit-deal/ ):

1. May says her deal means the UK leaves the EU next March. The Withdrawal Agreement makes a mockery of this. “All references to Member States and competent authorities of Member States…shall be read as including the United Kingdom.” (Art 6).
2. Not quite what most people understand by Brexit. It goes on to spell out that the UK will be in the EU but without any MEPs, a commissioner or ECJ judges. We are effectively a Member State, but we are excused – or, more accurately, excluded – from attending summits. (Article 7)
3. The European Court of Justice is decreed to be our highest court, governing the entire Agreement – Art. 4. stipulates that both citizens and resident companies can use it. Art 4.2 orders our courts to recognise this. “If the European Commission considers that the United Kingdom has failed to fulfil an obligation under the Treaties or under Part Four of this Agreement before the end of the transition period, the European Commission may, within 4 years after the end of the transition period, bring the matter before the Court of Justice of the European Union”. (Art. 87)
4. The jurisdiction of the ECJ will last until eight years after the end of the transition period. (Article 158).
5. The UK will still be bound by any future changes to EU law in which it will have no say, not to mention having to comply with current law. (Article 6(2))
6. Any disputes under the Agreement will be decided by EU law only – one of the most dangerous provisions. (Article 168).
7. This cuts the UK off from International Law, something we’d never do with any foreign body. Arbitration will be governed by the existing procedural rules of the EU law – this is not arbitration as we would commonly understand it (i.e. between two independent parties). (Article 174)
8. “UNDERLINING that this Agreement is founded on an overall balance of benefits, rights and obligations for the Union and the United Kingdom” No, it should be based upon the binding legal obligations upon the EU contained within Article 50. It is wrong to suggest otherwise.
9. The tampon tax clause: We obey EU laws on VAT, with no chance of losing the tampon tax even if we agree a better deal in December 2020 because we hereby agree to obey other EU VAT rules for **five years** after the transition period. Current EU rules prohibit 0-rated VAT on products (like tampons) that did not have such exemptions before the country joined the EU.
10. Several problems with the EU’s definitions: “Union law” is too widely defined and “United Kingdom national” is defined by the Lisbon Treaty: we should given away our right to define our citizens. The “goods” and the term “services” we are promised the deal are not defined – or, rather, will be defined however the EU wishes them to be. Thus far, this a non-defined term so far. This agreement fails to define it.
11. The Mandelson Pension Clause: The UK must promise never to tax former EU officials based here – such as Peter Mandelson or Neil Kinnock – on their E.U. pensions, or tax any current Brussels bureaucrats on their salaries. The EU and its employees are to be immune to our tax laws. (Article 104)
12. Furthermore, the UK agrees not to prosecute EU employees who are, or who might be deemed in future, criminals (Art.101)
13. The GDPR clause. The General Data Protection Regulation – the EU’s stupidest law ever? – is to be bound into UK law (Articles 71 to 73). There had been an expectation in some quarters that the UK could get out of it.
14. The UK establishes a ‘Joint Committee’ with EU representatives to guarantee ‘the implementation and application of this Agreement’. This does not sound like a withdrawal agreement – if it was, why would it need to be subject to continued monitoring? (Article 164).
15. This Joint Committee will have subcommittees with jurisdiction over: (a) citizens’ rights; (b) “other separation provisions”; (c) Ireland/Northern Ireland; (d) Sovereign Base Areas in Cyprus; (e) Gibraltar; and (f) financial provisions. (Article 165)
16. The Lifetime clause: the agreement will last as long as the country’s youngest baby lives. “the persons covered by this Part shall enjoy the rights provided for in the relevant Titles of this Part for their lifetime”. (Article 39).
17. The UK is shut out of all EU networks and databases for security – yet no such provision exists to shut the EU out of ours. (Article 8)
18. The UK will tied to EU foreign policy, “bound by the obligations stemming from the international agreements concluded by the Union” but unable to influence such decisions. (Article 124)
19. All EU citizens must be given permanent right of residence after five years – but what counts as residence? This will be decided by the EU, rather than UK rules. (Articles 15-16)
20. Britain is granted the power to send a civil servant to Brussels to watch them pass stupid laws which will hurt our economy. (Article 34)
21. The UK agrees to spend taxpayers’ money telling everyone how wonderful the agreement is. (Article 37)
22. Art 40 defines Goods. It seems to includes Services and Agriculture. We may come to discover that actually ‘goods’ means everything.
23. Articles 40-49 practically mandate the UK’s ongoing membership of the Customs Union in all but name.
24. The UK will be charged to receive the data/information we need in order to comply with EU law. (Article 50). The EU will continue to set rules for UK intellectual property law (Article 54 to 61). The UK will effectively be bound by a non-disclosure agreement swearing us to secrecy regarding any EU developments we have paid to be part. This is not mutual. The EU is not bound by such measures. (Article 74)
25. The UK is bound by EU rules on procurement rules – which effectively forbids us from seeking better deals elsewhere. (Articles 75 to 78)
26. We give up all rights to any data the EU made with our money (Art. 103)
27. The EU decide capital projects (too broadly defined) the UK is liable for. (Art. 144)
28. The UK is bound by EU state aid laws until future agreement – even in the event of an agreement, this must wait four years to be valid. (Article 93)
29. Similar advantages and immunities are extended to all former MEPs and to former EU official more generally. (Articles 106-116)
30. The UK is forbidden from revealing anything the EU told us or tells us about the finer points of deal and its operation. (Article 105).
31. Any powers the UK parliament might have had to mitigate EU law are officially removed. (Article 128)
32. The UK shall be liable for any “outstanding commitments” after 2022 (Article 142(2) expressly mentions pensions, which gives us an idea as to who probably negotiated this). The amount owed will be calculated by the EU. (Articles 140-142)
33. The UK will be liable for future EU lending. As anyone familiar with the EU’s financials knows, this is not good. (Article143)
34. The UK will remain liable for capital projects approved by the European Investment Bank. (Article 150).
35. The UK will remain a ‘party’ (i.e. cough up money) for the European Development Fund. (Articles 152-154)
36. And the EU continues to calculate how much money the UK should pay it. So thank goodness Brussels does not have any accountancy issues.
37. The UK will remain bound (i.e coughing up money) to the European Union Emergency Trust Fund – which deals with irregular migration (i.e. refugees) and displaced persons heading to Europe. (Article 155)
38. The agreement will be policed by ‘the Authority’ – a new UK-based body with ‘powers equivalent to those of the European Commission’. (Article 159)
39. The EU admits, in Art. 184, that it is in breach of Article 50 of the Lisbon Treaty which oblige it to “conclude an agreement” of the terms of UK leaving the EU. We must now, it seems, “negotiate expeditiously the agreements governing their future relationship.” And if the EU does not? We settle down to this Agreement.
40. And, of course, the UK will agree to pay £40bn to receive all of these ‘privileges’. (Article 138)

https://www.zerohedge.com/news/2018-11-17/40-hidden-horrors-theresa-mays-brexit-deal
« Last Edit: September 17, 2019, 10:52:10 AM by johnm33 »