Support the Arctic Sea Ice Forum and Blog

Author Topic: Brexit...  (Read 29035 times)

Tom_Mazanec

  • Young ice
  • Posts: 3898
  • Earth will survive AGW...but will Homo sapiens?
    • View Profile
    • Planet Mazanec
  • Liked: 640
  • Likes Given: 371
Re: Brexit...
« Reply #250 on: December 12, 2019, 01:50:45 PM »
Quote
Maybe the only positive about the growing climate crisis is that it might just unite us behind a common cause.

Is that too much to ask for?
We shall see, silkman, we shall see...
SHARKS (CROSSED OUT) MONGEESE (SIC) WITH FRICKIN LASER BEAMS ATTACHED TO THEIR HEADS

philopek

  • Guest
Re: Brexit...
« Reply #251 on: December 12, 2019, 03:00:54 PM »
That, I'm afraid is the necessary price we have to pay for democracy. Whether we like it or not, even with all the challenges it brings, I believe it's far better than the alternatives.

First Yes, second but:

...the KNOWN alternatives or the TESTED alternatives

I dedicated one of my works, still in the making to the yet untested and unknown alternatives but can give a hint as to where i'm finally heading.

a)
the problem among others of course, but to start with would be:collective irresponsibility
this among the voters as well among any kind of leadership.

b)
solutions I'm pondering over are towards to hold politicians PERSONALLY responsible not
through non-re-election but through common means like huge financial fines/penalties, prison and ultimately death sentences depending on the crime committed, starting with false promises, neglect, ending with going to dirty wars and/or make the dependent part of the public suffer otherwise.

all campaign related things has to be in writing and signed like a contract and can only be
altered through public consent (kind of referendums) else to breech the contract is
punished with above means.

details or not so easy to put into a few sentences but ultimately we need two main things
to change something for the better:

I. Consequently Enforced Responsibility of the PERSON(n) IN CHARGE, no hiding behind parties
foreign pressure etc.

II. Limiting wealth per capita to take the most widely spread motivation for corruption out of the system, also politicians will have a lower life-time limit to avoid later kick-backs etc. etc.

Also all corruption, no matter the name like i.e. lobbying, has to be prohibited and punished
by above mentioned means.

That my work will have 2 times 5-600 pages so you can imagine how in vain and dangerous it is to try to give a clue in this place in just a few sentences but your post made me post this because:

Democracy is best know but still very very bad because the average voter is exactly that AVERAGE and who would expect anything better than average when the average rules ?

we need a ruling elite but strictly controlled and to enforce that in a system where the military and the police are controlled by the "to be controlled" and "to be sentenced" is a huge task.
« Last Edit: December 12, 2019, 05:17:41 PM by philopek »

vox_mundi

  • Young ice
  • Posts: 4346
    • View Profile
  • Liked: 2466
  • Likes Given: 333
Re: Brexit...
« Reply #252 on: December 12, 2019, 07:35:45 PM »
V for Vendetta, Watchmen Creator Alan Moore Explains Why He's Voting Today For the First Time in 40 Years
https://paleofuture.gizmodo.com/watchmen-creator-alan-moore-explains-why-hes-voting-tod-1840383240

Alan Moore, the legendary creator of graphic novels like Watchmen and V For Vendetta, hasn’t voted in 40 years. But he’s voting in Britain’s general election today for the Labour Party. Why? According to a new video, Moore says that he’s not sure the UK would ever have a meaningful vote again if the Conservatives got another four years in power.

https://twitter.com/i/status/1204879412828811265

... Here’s something you don’t see every day, an internet-averse anarchist announcing on social media that he’ll be voting Labour in the December elections. But these are unprecedented times. I’ve voted only once in my life, more than forty years ago, being convinced that leaders are mostly of benefit to no one save themselves. That said, some leaders are so unbelievably malevolent and catastrophic that they must be strenuously opposed by any means available. nut simply, I do not believe that four more years of these rapacious, smirking right-wing parasites will leave us with a culture, a society, or an environment in which we have the luxury of even imagining alternatives.

The wretched world we’re living in at present was not an unlucky war of fate; it was an economic and political decision made without consulting the enormous human population that it would most drastically affect. If we would have it otherwise, if we’d prefer a fixture that we can call home, then we must stop supporting — even passively — this ravenous, insatiable conservative agenda before it devours us with our kids as a dessert.

Although my vote is principally against the Tories rather than for Labour, I’d observe that Labour’s current manifesto is the most encouraging set of proposals that I’ve ever seen from any major British party. Though these are immensely complicated times and we are all uncertain as to which course we should take, I’d say the one that steers us furthest from the glaringly apparent iceberg is the safest bet…

If my work has meant anything to you over the years, if the way that modern is going makes you fear for all the things you value, then please get out there on polling day and make your voice heard with a vote against this heartless trampling of everybody’s safety, dignity and dreams. A world we love is counting on us.
“There are three classes of people: those who see. Those who see when they are shown. Those who do not see.” ― Leonardo da Vinci

Insensible before the wave so soon released by callous fate. Affected most, they understand the least, and understanding, when it comes, invariably arrives too late

etienne

  • Nilas ice
  • Posts: 1081
    • View Profile
    • About energy
  • Liked: 184
  • Likes Given: 3
Re: Brexit...
« Reply #253 on: December 12, 2019, 08:10:47 PM »
Honestly, I believe that there is no alternative to Democracy because we are just humans. Nobody can say that he would stay fair all his life, that personal interests would never interfere and that he/she would be aware if he/she would start having mental problems requiring to leave a powerful position. There was a time in history at the beginning of the industrial revolution where Kings and Queens where working to develop their countries and improve the social standards, but this was probably because a well developed country also meant more incomes and power for them. I see chosen poverty is the only way to be really free, but once you have followed this path, I don't think that politics will have much appeal for you.

I also strongly believe that in politics, objectives don't mean anything, they will never be reached and everybody wants the country to be healthy and wealthy. The path is the important thing.

I really wonder how these elections will finish.

philopek

  • Guest
Re: Brexit...
« Reply #254 on: December 12, 2019, 09:17:06 PM »
Honestly, I believe that there is no alternative to Democracy .....

This just makes me think that perhaps i have to amend my above post with:

- Alternatives how i mean them are improved "forms" of democracy of course.

In fact they include more plebiscites and holding elected personnel responsible does not
contradict the concept of democracy, on the contrary.

- Instead of saying "Democracy" I should have said "Current forms of democracy" where we can only chose between evils, what we believe the lesser morons and this is because they get away
with almost anything, covered by their fellow politicians who certainly won't precedent that would
fall on their own feet upon next opportunity.

Similarly the parliamentary immunity is a joke that only sound meaningful on first glance, but
is part of the problem. A MP should be a good example and not get away with worse things than
the commons.

nanning

  • Nilas ice
  • Posts: 2401
  • 0Kg CO₂, 37 KWh/wk,125L H₂O/wk, No offspring
    • View Profile
  • Liked: 304
  • Likes Given: 20397
Re: Brexit...
« Reply #255 on: December 13, 2019, 06:21:15 AM »
Honestly, I believe that there is no alternative to Democracy because we are just humans.
<snip>

Try telling that to the indiginous tribes !
This is a perfect example of a civilisation-bubble where your conclusions are wrong because you don't see the whole picture.
"It is preoccupation with possessions, more than anything else, that prevents us from living freely and nobly" - Bertrand Russell
"It is preoccupation with what other people from your groups think of you, that prevents you from living freely and nobly" - Nanning
Why do you keep accumulating stuff?

Pmt111500

  • Guest
Re: Brexit...
« Reply #256 on: December 13, 2019, 06:26:42 AM »
Looks like brexit will finally happen. Apparently people want to stand alone, but shout in chorus. And they sometimes like to vote against their own wishes and hopes. Bye, and welcome back once you've sorted your problems.
« Last Edit: December 13, 2019, 08:35:11 AM by Pmt111500 »

nanning

  • Nilas ice
  • Posts: 2401
  • 0Kg CO₂, 37 KWh/wk,125L H₂O/wk, No offspring
    • View Profile
  • Liked: 304
  • Likes Given: 20397
Re: Brexit...
« Reply #257 on: December 13, 2019, 07:37:18 AM »
Hi silkman, I deeply regret that what we feared came true. And am so glad that I don't live there. I wish your people strenght and empathy.

If I were a U.K. resident, I would very seriously consider leaving the U.K. asap. To escape while it's still possible.
"It is preoccupation with possessions, more than anything else, that prevents us from living freely and nobly" - Bertrand Russell
"It is preoccupation with what other people from your groups think of you, that prevents you from living freely and nobly" - Nanning
Why do you keep accumulating stuff?

be cause

  • Moderator
  • Nilas ice
  • Posts: 1424
    • View Profile
  • Liked: 621
  • Likes Given: 476
Re: Brexit...
« Reply #258 on: December 13, 2019, 08:58:36 AM »
sadly now we have 10 years of Boris selling Britain by the Dollar to come .. aagh ..
2007 + 5 = 2012 + 4 = 2016 + 3 = 2019 + 2 = 2021 + 1 =  ' if only we could have seen it coming ' ...

Ranman99

  • New ice
  • Posts: 42
    • View Profile
  • Liked: 12
  • Likes Given: 5
Re: Brexit...
« Reply #259 on: December 13, 2019, 10:37:00 AM »
Boris will not be able to control the environmental factors that will make the lack of control very obvious to all them folks (all of us folks too) ;-) More life as theater of the absurd!!
Randy Fitton

SteveMDFP

  • Nilas ice
  • Posts: 1808
    • View Profile
  • Liked: 384
  • Likes Given: 25
Re: Brexit...
« Reply #260 on: December 13, 2019, 02:17:10 PM »
Hi silkman, I deeply regret that what we feared came true. And am so glad that I don't live there. I wish your people strenght and empathy.

If I were a U.K. resident, I would very seriously consider leaving the U.K. asap. To escape while it's still possible.

I fear the vote is a cautionary tale for the US.
The UK just had an election in which a Trump-like figure was in the running against a Bernie Sanders-like figure.  The Trump-like figure won decisively.
This in a society with far stricter limits on Big Money spending to influence an election.

Labor didn't run on an anti-Brexit platform,  it ran on a less rushed process, with possibilities of exit ramps to the process.
Labor mostly ran on a bold economic reform platform, which included nationalization of major industries and benefits for the middle class, and higher taxation on the wealthy.
The electorate didn't want radical economic reforms, they preferred more stability than that.

The far Left and the far Right in the US each proclaim that a True conservative/progressive is the candidate needed to excite the base and get them out to vote victoriously.  They're both wrong.

Most voters fear radical change.  Most voters prefer relative stability.  Most voters fear government control of anything important in their daily lives.  They *should* fear corporate control far more, but they don't.

I fear a Bernie Sanders nomination would yield an election result much as we just saw in the UK.  A less "true blue" candidate is needed to move the US in a more progressive direction.

ivica

  • Nilas ice
  • Posts: 1044
  • Kelele
    • View Profile
  • Liked: 56
  • Likes Given: 0
Re: Brexit...
« Reply #261 on: December 13, 2019, 02:29:17 PM »
just one of consequences of allowing concentrated wealth to control narrative

< condolences >

Tom_Mazanec

  • Young ice
  • Posts: 3898
  • Earth will survive AGW...but will Homo sapiens?
    • View Profile
    • Planet Mazanec
  • Liked: 640
  • Likes Given: 371
Re: Brexit...
« Reply #262 on: December 13, 2019, 03:49:14 PM »
just one of consequences of allowing concentrated wealth to control narrative

< condolences >
But SteveMDFP just said that the UK has strict laws against such shenanigans.
SHARKS (CROSSED OUT) MONGEESE (SIC) WITH FRICKIN LASER BEAMS ATTACHED TO THEIR HEADS

silkman

  • Frazil ice
  • Posts: 351
    • View Profile
  • Liked: 44
  • Likes Given: 7
Re: Brexit...
« Reply #263 on: December 13, 2019, 04:13:21 PM »
Hi silkman, I deeply regret that what we feared came true. And am so glad that I don't live there. I wish your people strenght and empathy.

If I were a U.K. resident, I would very seriously consider leaving the U.K. asap. To escape while it's still possible.

Thank you. I've stopped sulking in the corner!

For what it's worth, here's my take on yesterday.

Once all the votes were added up this morning the sum of votes for Remain parties (including Labour, which some might think is a bit of a stretch) exceeded those voting for Leave parties by 52-48. The country is therefore still absolutely split on the EU issue. So why is it that we finished up with a historic landslide for "getting Brexit done!"?

In the UK, the Tories own the Shires (our green and pleasant land) and Labour's strength lies in the Metropolitan Cities (dominated by London) and the Red Wall (the post-industrial North). Corbyn is one of the former and and not trusted by the latter. The primary battleground yesterday was in the Red Wall - the post-industrial landscape that was the cradle of the Industrial Revolution.

With Brexit in mind, the more liberal metropolitan elites of either party are remain-inclined. The Red Wall constituencies, seeing little benefit from the EU, are strongly leave.

Now tactical voting. As Labour, the Liberal Democrats and Greens had their own very different agendas there was no managed approach to tactical voting on the left but Nigel Farage and his new Brexit party saw the opportunity. He recognised that in the Red Wall working class labour Leaver constituencies many voters with parents and grandparents who were Labour before them could never bring themselves to vote Tory but they would vote for Farage. So Farage fielded candidates in the North of England to ensure that Labour Leavers had an anti EU home to go to but stood his candidates down in the South to avoid splitting the Leaver vote which then all went Tory, preventing Labour and LIb Dem gains.

It worked like a dream and the result was the landslide we're going to have to live with for 5 years at least.

So Boris Johnson won big because of Farage, who's only interest is to leave the EU. He didn't win a single seat but he was the architect of Boris's victory. How long before Johnson gives him a seat in the House of Lords I wonder?

And, despite all that, I'm still totally committed to democracy!

PS  I voted Green along with 2308 other enlightened individuals in my constituency (4.3% of the vote). There's still a lot of work to do Greta!
« Last Edit: December 13, 2019, 04:30:24 PM by silkman »

ivica

  • Nilas ice
  • Posts: 1044
  • Kelele
    • View Profile
  • Liked: 56
  • Likes Given: 0
Re: Brexit...
« Reply #264 on: December 13, 2019, 04:23:52 PM »
just one of consequences of allowing concentrated wealth to control narrative

< condolences >
But SteveMDFP just said that the UK has strict laws against such shenanigans.

Tom_Mazanec, (skip it if you were just joking), paying attention to actual UK MSM produces (say, of the last 4 years) will give better insight. That needs a personal effort, an involvement.
The best.

SteveMDFP

  • Nilas ice
  • Posts: 1808
    • View Profile
  • Liked: 384
  • Likes Given: 25
Re: Brexit...
« Reply #265 on: December 13, 2019, 04:59:56 PM »
just one of consequences of allowing concentrated wealth to control narrative

< condolences >
But SteveMDFP just said that the UK has strict laws against such shenanigans.

No, the UK has far stricter campaigning laws than the US.  Not strict enough.

Tom_Mazanec

  • Young ice
  • Posts: 3898
  • Earth will survive AGW...but will Homo sapiens?
    • View Profile
    • Planet Mazanec
  • Liked: 640
  • Likes Given: 371
Re: Brexit...
« Reply #266 on: December 13, 2019, 05:23:57 PM »
What does this election foreshadow, if anything, for the POTUS election?
SHARKS (CROSSED OUT) MONGEESE (SIC) WITH FRICKIN LASER BEAMS ATTACHED TO THEIR HEADS

nanning

  • Nilas ice
  • Posts: 2401
  • 0Kg CO₂, 37 KWh/wk,125L H₂O/wk, No offspring
    • View Profile
  • Liked: 304
  • Likes Given: 20397
Re: Brexit...
« Reply #267 on: December 13, 2019, 05:47:17 PM »
Quote from: SteveMDFP
Most voters fear radical change.  Most voters prefer relative stability.  Most voters fear government control of anything important in their daily lives.  They *should* fear corporate control far more, but they don't.

I think you're right. Nicely put.
I had forgotten about the IQ distribution and that 50% is below the median.



Quote from: silkman
How long before Johnson gives him a seat in the House of Lords I wonder?

Very good. And thanks for the detailed information and view. I learned some things.
Apart from Farage, social media may have had a big influence as well.

Considering the future 5 years, have you considered leaving the U.K.?
"It is preoccupation with possessions, more than anything else, that prevents us from living freely and nobly" - Bertrand Russell
"It is preoccupation with what other people from your groups think of you, that prevents you from living freely and nobly" - Nanning
Why do you keep accumulating stuff?

Tom_Mazanec

  • Young ice
  • Posts: 3898
  • Earth will survive AGW...but will Homo sapiens?
    • View Profile
    • Planet Mazanec
  • Liked: 640
  • Likes Given: 371
Re: Brexit...
« Reply #268 on: December 13, 2019, 06:08:11 PM »
Where else could you go, besides the UK?
SHARKS (CROSSED OUT) MONGEESE (SIC) WITH FRICKIN LASER BEAMS ATTACHED TO THEIR HEADS

Bruce Steele

  • Nilas ice
  • Posts: 1876
    • View Profile
  • Liked: 498
  • Likes Given: 23
Re: Brexit...
« Reply #269 on: December 13, 2019, 06:41:18 PM »
All I saw on mainstream media was “ landslide “. 
From this side of the pond I didn’t expect that.
I would like to know more about these red wall voters. I think I know a little about similar voters here (Republicans) but should we drawing parallels ?

Republicans being conservative don’t like change but there is tied up in politics lately a backlash agains’t liberalism . The backlash is a way to vote against liberal values, gay marriage , abortion,
environmentalism, NGO’s , integration , immigration, without having to stand up in public and admit why you oppose these liberal bulkheads. That reticence to get bold and actually stand up and break things is changing I fear and will be the next step down this road.
 We will on the liberal side have to decide if we will fight back. Has the judicial taken the same conservative transformation in  England as it has over here ?  It is getting time for next years forecasts and I think some large court decisions may be in the offing.
BTW , nanning , this isn’t an IQ issue but if you’d like to take that up with a red liner in person go have a go at it.

blumenkraft

  • Guest
Re: Brexit...
« Reply #270 on: December 13, 2019, 07:00:27 PM »
From this side of the pond I didn’t expect that.

From this side of the channel, i didn’t expect that either.

Condolences to all the sane Brits out there. I'm so sorry...

johnm33

  • Guest
Re: Brexit...
« Reply #271 on: December 13, 2019, 07:22:11 PM »
Labour promised their northern 'tribal' vote more of the same, well they've had that for over a generation and they're not mad or stupid enough to think more of the same is going to stop the decline in their prosperity or reduce the rate of moral decay around them. So this I guess is just a kick in the nuts for the incumbents. A couple of decent reads to embellish silkmans words, an analysis which seems even handed to me, and some thoughts from Craig Murray always worth reading.

nanning

  • Nilas ice
  • Posts: 2401
  • 0Kg CO₂, 37 KWh/wk,125L H₂O/wk, No offspring
    • View Profile
  • Liked: 304
  • Likes Given: 20397
Re: Brexit...
« Reply #272 on: December 13, 2019, 07:45:21 PM »
Bruce, with my IQ remark I referred to the lack of information, of understanding, of critical thinking, of independend opinions, of long term view, of memory of past behaviour etc. from persons who score under IQ100.
In my opinion this is one of the reasons why democracy is a bad system.

When I'm talking to others outside of this forum, I adapt to civilisation and don't give my hard view from reality. I try to wrap my opinions in civilisation language.
So I would never have a talk about this with any 'red liner' persons. IQ is a taboo. Even in Mensa.
"It is preoccupation with possessions, more than anything else, that prevents us from living freely and nobly" - Bertrand Russell
"It is preoccupation with what other people from your groups think of you, that prevents you from living freely and nobly" - Nanning
Why do you keep accumulating stuff?

silkman

  • Frazil ice
  • Posts: 351
    • View Profile
  • Liked: 44
  • Likes Given: 7
Re: Brexit...
« Reply #273 on: December 13, 2019, 07:51:15 PM »

Considering the future 5 years, have you considered leaving the U.K.?
[/quote]

Considered, yes, and were I to have been blessed with Irish blood like a number of my close friends an Irish passport and Dublin would be a great choice.

So no, I'll stay where I am in NW England and keep cheerful🙂
« Last Edit: December 13, 2019, 08:06:45 PM by silkman »

SATire

  • Grease ice
  • Posts: 509
    • View Profile
  • Liked: 34
  • Likes Given: 8
Re: Brexit...
« Reply #274 on: December 13, 2019, 08:04:06 PM »
Congratulations! Both the English and the Scottish voted clear. That should help to get to some decisions soon. Nevertheless - since after Brexit (transition) is before Brexit (agreement about future relationship), another year of popcorn is going to make me fat anyway.

silkman

  • Frazil ice
  • Posts: 351
    • View Profile
  • Liked: 44
  • Likes Given: 7
Re: Brexit...
« Reply #275 on: December 13, 2019, 08:05:10 PM »
All I saw on mainstream media was “ landslide “. 
From this side of the pond I didn’t expect that.
I would like to know more about these red wall voters. I think I know a little about similar voters here (Republicans) but should we drawing parallels

I'm not a great fan of Craig Murray but I think the links posted by johnm33 add a lot of context. The parallels with the rust belt heartlands of Trump support are pretty clear.

gerontocrat

  • First-year ice
  • Posts: 9587
    • View Profile
  • Liked: 3803
  • Likes Given: 29
Re: Brexit...
« Reply #276 on: December 13, 2019, 09:40:32 PM »
After a day of reflection,

shit, fuck, damn.
"Para a Causa do Povo a Luta Continua!"
"And that's all I'm going to say about that". Forrest Gump
"Damn, I wanted to see what happened next" (Epitaph)

sidd

  • First-year ice
  • Posts: 5718
    • View Profile
  • Liked: 796
  • Likes Given: 0
Re: Brexit...
« Reply #277 on: December 13, 2019, 09:49:47 PM »
It is tempting to draw parallels between the UK election and the 2020 US election, but i see two serious differences.

1) The UK election hinged on Brexit, Labour lost the heartland constituencies who supported leaving the EU. This was because Corbyn did not want to alienate the metro vote which was strongly remaining. But that lack of a clear position hurt Labour badly.

2) Corbyn generated much less enthusiasm and commitment among his supporters than Bernie Sanders does with his.

So my positions remains unchanged: the democrats in the USA will lose in 2020 with a centrist candidate. But we shall see.

sidd

Bruce Steele

  • Nilas ice
  • Posts: 1876
    • View Profile
  • Liked: 498
  • Likes Given: 23
Re: Brexit...
« Reply #278 on: December 13, 2019, 09:56:41 PM »
The states over here with the highest percent of public sector verses private sector jobs happen to be in “Red” states.
https://www.usatoday.com/story/money/economy/2018/06/01/states-where-the-most-people-work-for-government/35302753/

To quote from one of Johnm33 suggested reading
“The Labour Party is not the party through which the working class will seize power and transform their lives; it is a party of the public-sector middle classes and the trade union bureaucracy, deeply committed to a paternalistic, welfarist, statist outlook.”
 
Maybe it will be a case where conservatives are willing to shoot themselves in the foot after all ?
Are there similar percentage government sector jobs for voters behind the red wall ?
 
I am having a hard time getting my head around the public/private part of the argument offered above.
When I venture onto the conservative web I don’t see this bantered about, it’s much more the darker side of anti-immigration , anti/ enviro, and screw the liberals... what climate change

Sorry gerontocrat and Silkman, I will keep my fond memories about growing up there. But then there was ice skating on the meare , so maybe more has changed than just the weather.


TerryM

  • First-year ice
  • Posts: 6002
    • View Profile
  • Liked: 899
  • Likes Given: 5
Re: Brexit...
« Reply #279 on: December 14, 2019, 04:14:26 AM »
I was surprised by Nevada's numbers. In the 80's? Clark County's paymaster was >30% but <1/3 government. Nellis AFB, Area 51, & some large State and Federal prisons were cited as responsible for much of the unbalance.
Now Nevada is now near the bottom of the list.


What a change.
Terry

blumenkraft

  • Guest
Re: Brexit...
« Reply #280 on: December 14, 2019, 06:06:21 AM »
So my positions remains unchanged: the democrats in the USA will lose in 2020 with a centrist candidate. But we shall see.

Noam Chomsky agrees. Me too.

Pmt111500

  • Guest
Re: Brexit...
« Reply #281 on: December 14, 2019, 06:42:58 AM »
Back to some English opinions on Brexit with a music video. All too elaborate, say the commenters.

silkman

  • Frazil ice
  • Posts: 351
    • View Profile
  • Liked: 44
  • Likes Given: 7
Re: Brexit...
« Reply #282 on: December 14, 2019, 09:27:26 AM »
What does this election foreshadow, if anything, for the POTUS election?

It really is time for me to stop pining and accept the reality of another 5 years of Tory rule but here's a piece from the Guardian about how Farage won it for Boris:

https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2019/dec/13/brexit-party-nigel-farage-boris-johnson-labour-leavers

The Guardian has a real problem itself now as it's chock full of the left wing Metropolitan elite railing against the failure of the left wing Metropolitan elite. Hey ho!

Meanwhile, it seems Farage is on his way over the pond to give Mr Trump a hand. Enjoy!

"With Brexit a done deal, Farage himself is rumoured to be heading for the US to cash in via the lucrative speaker circuit. Farage basically admitted to Andrew Neil on election night that he would be giving stump speeches for Trump on the campaign trail for the US presidential election 2020."

nanning

  • Nilas ice
  • Posts: 2401
  • 0Kg CO₂, 37 KWh/wk,125L H₂O/wk, No offspring
    • View Profile
  • Liked: 304
  • Likes Given: 20397
Re: Brexit...
« Reply #283 on: December 14, 2019, 11:40:05 AM »
Thanks silkman.
A virtual hug for both you and gerontocrat, to release the stress, anger and/or anxiety.
I you are poor and on benefits you'll have A LOT of anxiety.

Concerning The Guardian:
I don't understand why there was no mention the last days of the Green Party in all The Guardian's articles on the election results. I couldn't find any.

Before the election The Guardian published an article about how Labour has the only well thought out plans for AGW mitigation etc. Ignoring and insulting The Green Party imo.

The Guardian is pushing articles on this Climate Crisis etc, but I guess they don't want radical change.

Like all very rich people, their very rich backers/trustfund people are scared. If you have a lot of material wealth to lose, you are afraid to lose some, even when you're still left a very rich person. That's my observation. Poor people have less problems with sharing than rich people.

Still, I admire The Guardian for their environmental, honest, balanced, investigative and high morality reporting. They have given me so much information and understanding over the years.

I stopped commenting there because I kept getting articles on their pages, days after they where originally published so I wasn't able to comment anymore. I learned that from this forum, where I saw links to articles appearing that I hadn't seen and were already days old.

They're not perfect but one of the very best online newspapers. A beacon of trust.
"It is preoccupation with possessions, more than anything else, that prevents us from living freely and nobly" - Bertrand Russell
"It is preoccupation with what other people from your groups think of you, that prevents you from living freely and nobly" - Nanning
Why do you keep accumulating stuff?

silkman

  • Frazil ice
  • Posts: 351
    • View Profile
  • Liked: 44
  • Likes Given: 7
Re: Brexit...
« Reply #284 on: December 14, 2019, 01:03:23 PM »


Concerning The Guardian:

They're not perfect but one of the very best online newspapers. A beacon of trust.

Perhaps we could persuade them to move back to their Manchester roots to reflect a less Metropolitan perspective. That said, the Guardian is the only UK mainstream medium that truly reflects the scale of the climate crisis. They certainly have my support.

nanning

  • Nilas ice
  • Posts: 2401
  • 0Kg CO₂, 37 KWh/wk,125L H₂O/wk, No offspring
    • View Profile
  • Liked: 304
  • Likes Given: 20397
Re: Brexit...
« Reply #285 on: December 14, 2019, 04:40:59 PM »
Good idea! I think persuading them to move to the countryside near Manchester would be even better. A different perspective.
"It is preoccupation with possessions, more than anything else, that prevents us from living freely and nobly" - Bertrand Russell
"It is preoccupation with what other people from your groups think of you, that prevents you from living freely and nobly" - Nanning
Why do you keep accumulating stuff?

blumenkraft

  • Guest
Re: Brexit...
« Reply #286 on: December 17, 2019, 11:51:02 AM »
The Election Results Don't Match the Voters


Pmt111500

  • Guest
Re: Brexit...
« Reply #287 on: December 17, 2019, 12:01:03 PM »
The Election Results Don't Match the Voters

Well this is an inherent flaw in that sort of system of elections. Several years ago people in some US forum talked of Gerrymandering, and I had to look it up. Plenty of chances to gerrymander English/Wales elections too. And when you get a majority with less than 50% votes you may get laws that are pretty unpopular. "'Brexit on Jan 31th and not a moment later' -law proposed".

https://www.bbc.com/news/election-2019-50818134
« Last Edit: December 17, 2019, 12:26:06 PM by Pmt111500 »

be cause

  • Moderator
  • Nilas ice
  • Posts: 1424
    • View Profile
  • Liked: 621
  • Likes Given: 476
Re: Brexit...
« Reply #288 on: December 25, 2019, 07:19:09 PM »
rural N.I. has declared the end of European protection and policing of the environment . Plastic is burning merrily on farms and businesses all around . I am struggling to breath even after midnight . Fires smoulder for days on end . This has not happened over the last 40 years but has become the norm this month . b.c.
2007 + 5 = 2012 + 4 = 2016 + 3 = 2019 + 2 = 2021 + 1 =  ' if only we could have seen it coming ' ...

philopek

  • Guest
Re: Brexit...
« Reply #289 on: December 25, 2019, 07:48:05 PM »
rural N.I. has declared the end of European protection and policing of the environment . Plastic is burning merrily on farms and businesses all around . I am struggling to breath even after midnight . Fires smoulder for days on end . This has not happened over the last 40 years but has become the norm this month . b.c.

real freedom comes with responsibility and who does not obey this law of nature is doomed, depending on the topic at hand and time scale the doom narrower or wider spread.

Next thing that the peasants will do once they will be confronted with the consequences of their doing is to call (vote) for left governments that will drive the vehicle to the wall entirely, especially economically.

doesn't this sound familiar, didn't this happen throughout history for an endless number of times like a sinus curve that can only be adapted in strength and frequency but never as such before extinction (game over) ?

let them eat the shit, i can only recommend to anyone become flexible in your life planning so not to depend on location and political game changes.

one first move would be to move as close to the next "tropic" as possible where basic costs of life for housing, heating etc. are reducing minimum life costs as well as minimum carbon footprints and chance for autonomy from all kind of grids significantly.

whoever is mentally stuck with his place of birth/place of living and living regions with long and cold winters is prone to the consequences of bad decisions of their leaders to a much higher extent.


crandles

  • Young ice
  • Posts: 2783
    • View Profile
  • Liked: 176
  • Likes Given: 55
Re: Brexit...
« Reply #290 on: January 16, 2020, 09:42:46 PM »

blumenkraft

  • Guest
Re: Brexit...
« Reply #291 on: January 29, 2020, 12:55:20 PM »

sidd

  • First-year ice
  • Posts: 5718
    • View Profile
  • Liked: 796
  • Likes Given: 0
Re: Brexit...
« Reply #292 on: January 31, 2020, 11:47:36 PM »
Johnstone at consortiumnews: Great Britain didn’t belong in a unified Europe

"years of British membership have already helped shatter the original dreams of a united Europe"

" the traditional policy of their governments was always to keep the continent divided and weak"

"Bringing in Britain was the decisive step toward making unified Europe into a vast free market, a step toward globalization."

"the presence of London has certainly contributed to the total inability of the EU to develop a foreign policy that deviates from that of Washington."

" it leaves behind a European Union that is bureaucratically governed to serve the interests of financial capital."

"paradoxically, the British people themselves are the first to reject it"

" it may be time to give up this failed European union and start all over"

https://consortiumnews.com/2020/01/30/uk-came-went-leaving-europe-in-a-mess/

sidd

Pmt111500

  • Guest
Re: Brexit...
« Reply #293 on: February 01, 2020, 03:48:19 AM »
Interested to see how long before NHS is forced to diminish it's operations, the American way of 'not wealthy enough to be sick' -being introduced to the Big Island. The cutbacks are likely to start this year, almost certainly 2021. Hopefully someone records this descent of living standards.

That said, you're very likely welcome back to the EU, but not on the same terms as before. This probably means things will have to get worse (as they'll most likely get), before you get a government that applies.
« Last Edit: February 01, 2020, 07:34:53 AM by Pmt111500 »

nanning

  • Nilas ice
  • Posts: 2401
  • 0Kg CO₂, 37 KWh/wk,125L H₂O/wk, No offspring
    • View Profile
  • Liked: 304
  • Likes Given: 20397
Re: Brexit...
« Reply #294 on: February 01, 2020, 07:21:43 AM »
"the presence of London has certainly contributed to the total inability of the EU to develop a foreign policy that deviates from that of Washington."

Thank you for that sidd.

Is the E.U. now finally free from the anglosphere poison?
Is it possible for the E.U. to regain a sane world view?
Is it now finally possible for the E.U. to see the U.S.A. as the axis-of-evil?
Is it possible fot the E.U. to lose the neo-liberal evil dogma and start thinking about humans again? Re-enlightenment?
"It is preoccupation with possessions, more than anything else, that prevents us from living freely and nobly" - Bertrand Russell
"It is preoccupation with what other people from your groups think of you, that prevents you from living freely and nobly" - Nanning
Why do you keep accumulating stuff?

blumenkraft

  • Guest
Re: Brexit...
« Reply #295 on: February 01, 2020, 07:41:19 AM »
Is the E.U. now finally free from the anglosphere poison?

I don't think so. There are still too many conservative European politicians organized in groups like the Atlantic Bridge.

Quote
Is it possible for the E.U. to regain a sane world view?

Compared to the US, we are still in the sane i guess.

Quote
Is it now finally possible for the E.U. to see the U.S.A. as the axis-of-evil?

Is it possible fot the E.U. to lose the neo-liberal evil dogma and start thinking about humans again? Re-enlightenment?

It depends on people expressing that thought in masses. Then you can bet on it. Otherwise not.



nanning

  • Nilas ice
  • Posts: 2401
  • 0Kg CO₂, 37 KWh/wk,125L H₂O/wk, No offspring
    • View Profile
  • Liked: 304
  • Likes Given: 20397
Re: Brexit...
« Reply #296 on: February 02, 2020, 10:37:16 AM »
A well written opinion piece on Brexit:

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2020/feb/01/brexit-pointless-masochistic-ambition-history-done
  by Ian McEwan

Brexit, the most pointless, masochistic ambition in our country's history, is done

The magic dust of populism has blinded reason, and damage and diminishment lie ahead
"It is preoccupation with possessions, more than anything else, that prevents us from living freely and nobly" - Bertrand Russell
"It is preoccupation with what other people from your groups think of you, that prevents you from living freely and nobly" - Nanning
Why do you keep accumulating stuff?

blumenkraft

  • Guest
Re: Brexit...
« Reply #297 on: February 02, 2020, 10:48:58 AM »
Nah, it's not done!

Britain will stay a member state but without any voice, obeying EU rules. That's just the facts.

Of course, there is a faint possibility that the Brits will get a great deal sometime in the future. The likelihood for that is like 1mio to 1.

Stupid, stupid, stupid, stupid!


Jim Hunt

  • Young ice
  • Posts: 4755
  • Stay Home, Save Lives
    • View Profile
    • The Arctic sea ice Great White Con
  • Liked: 510
  • Likes Given: 44
Re: Brexit...
« Reply #298 on: February 02, 2020, 02:54:28 PM »
Here we go:

https://twitter.com/Peston/status/1223965673463910401

"Flooding the [euro] zone with shit" is already well under way!
Reality is merely an illusion, albeit a very persistent one - Albert Einstein

blumenkraft

  • Guest
Re: Brexit...
« Reply #299 on: February 07, 2020, 10:05:16 AM »