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JayW

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Re: The Rammb Slider Thread
« Reply #150 on: July 26, 2019, 11:33:26 PM »
« Last Edit: July 27, 2019, 07:14:37 PM by JayW »
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Re: The Rammb Slider Thread
« Reply #151 on: July 26, 2019, 11:47:28 PM »

14 hour loop of a channel in the CAA, I don't know its name so left the lat, lon in there. Rotated so that North is up.


Nansen Sound upper left, Greely Fjord to the center and right. Eureka is just to the left of the lower left '80'.

I didn't realize this stuff was moving around like that. It looks to me like melt runoff is driving it, but what do I know? :-)

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Re: The Rammb Slider Thread
« Reply #152 on: July 27, 2019, 12:49:09 AM »
Thanks both. Really been missing rammb.

binntho

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Re: The Rammb Slider Thread
« Reply #153 on: July 27, 2019, 07:35:37 AM »

14 hour loop of a channel in the CAA, I don't know its name so left the lat, lon in there. Rotated so that North is up.


Nansen Sound upper left, Greely Fjord to the center and right. Eureka is just to the left of the lower left '80'.

I didn't realize this stuff was moving around like that. It looks to me like melt runoff is driving it, but what do I know? :-)
I was also very surprised at the movement - I'd have thought ice in those narrow inlets and straits would mostly stay put. But I don't think melt runoff can be the culprit. To me it looks like a strong wind is pushing ice out towards the left in that long central east-west fjord, while currents are pulling ice generally southwards in the other fjords and straits.

If you look closely at the top fjord that stretches to the right, the ice is floating in along the southern side and ends in a turbulent swirl towards the bottom of the fjord. This is entirely in accordance with how fjord currents work in Iceland, flowing in along one side and out the other, with turbulence somewhere towards the end (where the fjords tend to be deepest).

The strong wind in that one fjord is also something we see in Iceland and other narrow fjord/narrow valley environments. If the alignment of the valley/fjord is just right, the wind starts to funnel along and can get increadibly strong, while another fjord a few kilometers away that is slighlty differently orientated could be experiencing a wind-free day.
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JayW

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Re: The Rammb Slider Thread
« Reply #154 on: July 27, 2019, 05:41:23 PM »
I think it might be both winds and melt water pushing in. To me, it looks like you can see sediment rich water moving west through the channel. 

Here is an interesting feature at about 80°N, 5°W.  Since the I bands have only been updating a few days, I didn't go back that far, plus it was cloudy, but the feature reappears about the same time the last 4 days and propagates east., making me think it's tide driven.  I'm not sure of the bathymetry.

26ish hour loop, contrast enhanced for detail.
Link to location
http://rammb-slider.cira.colostate.edu/?sat=jpss&z=5&im=36&ts=1&st=0&et=0&speed=130&motion=loop&map=1&lat=1&opacity%5B0%5D=1&hidden%5B0%5D=0&pause=0&slider=-1&hide_controls=1&mouse_draw=0&follow_feature=0&follow_hide=0&s=rammb-slider&sec=northern_hemisphere&p%5B0%5D=band_i01&x=16590.013671875&y=13820.0830078125

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petm

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Re: The Rammb Slider Thread
« Reply #155 on: July 27, 2019, 06:08:12 PM »
Here is an interesting feature

What on earth?!

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Re: The Rammb Slider Thread
« Reply #156 on: July 27, 2019, 06:19:43 PM »
My guess is kraken and i am just hoping that someone comes up with a more sensible explanation.  :)
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Re: The Rammb Slider Thread
« Reply #157 on: July 27, 2019, 06:21:27 PM »
I think it might be both winds and melt water pushing in. To me, it looks like you can see sediment rich water moving west through the channel. 
Well the problem with meltwater is that I'm not at all sure that there could be enough of it to cause such a strong movement in a (presumably) deep fjord. But you are right, there is discoloration that follows the ice retreat, possibly just reflecting a change in temperature?

Meltwater would be brown, but the discoloration seems more bluish. Perhaps an extremly rapid spread of algae? I don't know.
Quote
Here is an interesting feature at about 80°N, 5°W.
Very interesting, with those circular movements. Is it the wind doing that, or ocean currents? This Rammb slider thing is really showing us details that I for one didn't know existed.
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Re: The Rammb Slider Thread
« Reply #158 on: July 27, 2019, 06:49:46 PM »
I think it might be both winds and melt water pushing in. To me, it looks like you can see sediment rich water moving west through the channel. 
Well the problem with meltwater is that I'm not at all sure that there could be enough of it to cause such a strong movement in a (presumably) deep fjord. But you are right, there is discoloration that follows the ice retreat, possibly just reflecting a change in temperature?

Meltwater would be brown, but the discoloration seems more bluish. Perhaps an extremly rapid spread of algae? I don't know.
Quote
Here is an interesting feature at about 80°N, 5°W.
Very interesting, with those circular movements. Is it the wind doing that, or ocean currents? This Rammb slider thing is really showing us details that I for one didn't know existed.

I don't believe high resolution hourly imagery has been available until they added it to the slider.

I thought of Peyto lake in Canada, and just thought it was fine sediment similar to that.

The swirl at 80°N,5°W looks oceanic to me, as it has appeared the last week or so in the same location at thr same time.  I can't tell how long is been there, as it was too cloudy to see before the 21st.
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Re: The Rammb Slider Thread
« Reply #159 on: July 27, 2019, 06:52:20 PM »

Quote
Here is an interesting feature at about 80°N, 5°W.
Very interesting, with those circular movements. Is it the wind doing that, or ocean currents? This Rammb slider thing is really showing us details that I for one didn't know existed.


I suspect a moving ocean vortex, possibly initiated by tidal flows somewhere.  Initially I assumed a small atmospheric low, but the ice is moving in the opposite circular motion for that to be so.  Plus, lows tend to have clouds.

In water, vortices can be surprisingly long-lived, and travel long distances.  For a swimming pool demonstration:
Crazy pool vortex

uniquorn

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Re: The Rammb Slider Thread
« Reply #160 on: July 27, 2019, 07:20:29 PM »
« Last Edit: July 27, 2019, 07:29:35 PM by uniquorn »

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Re: The Rammb Slider Thread
« Reply #161 on: July 27, 2019, 07:44:12 PM »
Crazy pool vortex

So cool!  :D
Almost restores some hope for the future.

Please see

Well, well. So this may be recurrent or persistent. Any idea how new it is, or not?
« Last Edit: July 27, 2019, 07:49:47 PM by petm »

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Re: The Rammb Slider Thread
« Reply #162 on: July 27, 2019, 08:36:51 PM »
I didn't look back too far but here is amsr2-uhh north of svalbard 2017 (high contrast, small, uncorrected). It's still there at times but I think the ice drifting over has been thicker in previous years so the lower concentration doesn't show.
I assume that it's warmer water forced to the surface over the shallower plateau

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Re: The Rammb Slider Thread
« Reply #163 on: July 28, 2019, 02:04:11 AM »
Continuation from the gif in post #150.

I believe the resolution is about 375m /pixel.  I'd say the front moved about 70 pixels, equaling roughly 26km, over the 13.5 hour animation, so about 2km/hour is my guess.  Does it plow straight through? Make a hard left? Or stop in its tracks?. Won't know till tomorrow, and even then, who knows if it'll be clear.

Click it.
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Re: The Rammb Slider Thread
« Reply #164 on: July 28, 2019, 05:06:12 AM »
Rammb slider does a great job of showing the extensive damage that export into the Beaufort Blender has done to the central basin, up to and even beyond 80N. There's a lot of ice here that might melt out this season.

https://col.st/ZIcGT

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Re: The Rammb Slider Thread
« Reply #165 on: July 28, 2019, 07:03:59 AM »
Continuation from the gif in post #150.

I believe the resolution is about 375m /pixel.  I'd say the front moved about 70 pixels, equaling roughly 26km, over the 13.5 hour animation, so about 2km/hour is my guess.  Does it plow straight through? Make a hard left? Or stop in its tracks?. Won't know till tomorrow, and even then, who knows if it'll be clear.


It should all make the turn and go down the channel that leads off to the lower right, which leads eventually to the southern part of the CAA.

I looked closer, and can see what looks like large amounts of melt water and sediment pouring into the fjords. There are brown plumes everywhere.

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Re: The Rammb Slider Thread
« Reply #166 on: July 28, 2019, 06:43:51 PM »
Interesting feature.
I think whats happening there is that Atl. waters which are pressed in to the area by NAD/Gulf stream + tides, some, the fastest, climb the shelf tight to the Norwegian coast, some climb the shelf south of Svarlbad, some get caught up against the shelf tight against Svarlbad, others forming deep vortices get caught up in the deep channels that run north. The last two+ meet at the anomoly hotspot, then move north and depending on the momentary situation may be drawn across the north of Svarlbad or Greenland, these waters may be energetically comfortable at 60N but here they are moving against there 'natural' inertia and rapidly approaching the axis of rotation so once moving will organise into vortices to refine and disperse that excess.

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Re: The Rammb Slider Thread
« Reply #167 on: July 29, 2019, 01:52:48 AM »
Contrast between the CAB ice and the CAA ice, separated by the open water of the CAA/CAB crack.

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Re: The Rammb Slider Thread
« Reply #168 on: July 29, 2019, 08:41:36 PM »
The famous ESS Wobble
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Re: The Rammb Slider Thread
« Reply #169 on: August 01, 2019, 12:48:06 PM »
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Re: The Rammb Slider Thread
« Reply #170 on: August 01, 2019, 02:22:48 PM »
Look at the very confused floes along the crack, going in all sorts of different directions. Quite a lot of confusing water movement there.

The "slo-mo bomb" under the ice is, I would think, some sort of rising body of water and I can't really see how the tides could produce this? Maybe as a partial influence.
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Re: The Rammb Slider Thread
« Reply #171 on: August 01, 2019, 03:02:57 PM »
I think the tides force Atl.Wat. through Fram some fraction moves along the Greenland shelf, some surges into the basins which causes internal waves to slew back and forth causing upwelling vortices both here and at the Laptev end.

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Re: The Rammb Slider Thread
« Reply #172 on: August 01, 2019, 04:26:02 PM »
I think the tides force Atl.Wat. through Fram

I think these tides are coming from the Nares, John.

Thanks for sharing Jay, you beat me to it. :P
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Re: The Rammb Slider Thread
« Reply #173 on: August 01, 2019, 04:50:51 PM »
Well, how big are the tides up there? I found this image from https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0078323415000883).

The deep read in the Nares strait shows that there is quite a tidal surge there but not so much once it enters the Lincoln sea.

But the movement in the "crack" in the video above can hardly be explained by tidal movement, look in the lower right corner where the ice closest to shore is moving rapidly in one directon but the floes further out in the opposite direction.
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Re: The Rammb Slider Thread
« Reply #174 on: August 01, 2019, 04:58:18 PM »
High tides in this area are a meterish. >> https://www.tide-forecast.com/locations/Alert-Nunavut/tides/latest

What we see in the satellite pictures though is not water going up and down. What we see are waves caused by the water body moving as a whole.
« Last Edit: August 01, 2019, 05:28:41 PM by blumenkraft »
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Re: The Rammb Slider Thread
« Reply #175 on: August 01, 2019, 05:26:51 PM »
What we see in the satellite pictures though is not water going up and down. What we see are waves caused by the water body moving as a whole vertically.
Well quite. Or what, wait. The water body moves as a whole vertically? Is that a typo?

Anyway, the Rammb images keep showing very rapid and mysterious movements of water (as implied by movement of ice) in all sorts of fun and strange directions. It makes me curious, that's all. Would we see the same off the coast of Norway if there were bits if ice floating around there?
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Re: The Rammb Slider Thread
« Reply #176 on: August 01, 2019, 05:30:21 PM »
Is that a typo?

Whoops. Fixed it. Thanks!

Quote
Would we see the same off the coast of Norway if there were bits if ice floating around there?

I would think so, yes.
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Re: The Rammb Slider Thread
« Reply #177 on: August 01, 2019, 06:15:08 PM »
The same feature as provided by Jay above zoomed out with upper NS included.

The slider doesn't like me today. Getting 404s...  :'(
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Re: The Rammb Slider Thread
« Reply #178 on: August 01, 2019, 10:16:44 PM »
Another interesting feature
Thanks. Here it is overlaid onto bathymetry. Rotation and scaling is not perfect.
Blue deeper than brown.

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Re: The Rammb Slider Thread
« Reply #179 on: August 02, 2019, 02:52:26 AM »
uniquorn,
Interesting dark arc that moves to the right off the coast near the center of that movie.  A drifting contrail shadow? (plane having made a U-turn)??  Better interpretation out there?
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Re: The Rammb Slider Thread
« Reply #180 on: August 02, 2019, 02:53:13 AM »
Wind/ cloud effects..

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Re: The Rammb Slider Thread
« Reply #181 on: August 02, 2019, 03:41:41 AM »
Similar to the one discussed earlier off Svalbard.

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Re: The Rammb Slider Thread
« Reply #182 on: August 02, 2019, 03:42:49 AM »
 
Wind/ cloud effects..

It's a 78 hour loop I posted, and the feature recurs at the same spot, at almost the same time 4 days in a row. That's why I believe it to be related to the tides, the one north of Svalbard also shows a daily rhythm.  I don't see how the clouds and winds would be exactly the same 4 days in a row.  It actually was there the day before that loop as well. 

It was also there in mid July, I think the higher tides surrounding the full/new moons enhances it.
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Re: The Rammb Slider Thread
« Reply #183 on: August 02, 2019, 03:55:21 AM »
That would be awesome if those where waves under the ice, or the tide disturbing the ice. Is there a ocean floor topographic map of that region ?

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Re: The Rammb Slider Thread
« Reply #184 on: August 02, 2019, 04:03:43 AM »
Similar to the one discussed earlier off Svalbard.
Yep, that one is still making it's daily appearance as well.  I misspoke when I initially posted that one and said it was at 80°N , 5°E, I had the latitude line confused on the slider, it's actually 82.5°N, 5°E.


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Re: The Rammb Slider Thread
« Reply #185 on: August 02, 2019, 06:30:17 AM »
Great work! Some sort of tidal effect seems the best explanation. But the circular movement indicates (to me at least) something rising from below. How can that be caused by tides?
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Re: The Rammb Slider Thread
« Reply #186 on: August 02, 2019, 08:53:58 AM »
Friggin' amazing. This Rammb thing, wow. I can imagine A-Team having a field day with it.
These features do look like something upwelling to the layman's eye, but I'm hardly the expert on currents and tides.

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Re: The Rammb Slider Thread
« Reply #187 on: August 02, 2019, 11:06:26 AM »
It's a 78 hour loop I posted, and the feature recurs at the same spot, at almost the same time 4 days in a row. That's why I believe it to be related to the tides, the one north of Svalbard also shows a daily rhythm.  I don't see how the clouds and winds would be exactly the same 4 days in a row.  It actually was there the day before that loop as well. 
It was also there in mid July, I think the higher tides surrounding the full/new moons enhances it.
Yes, mine is shorter. rammb eats up my broadband volume. Thanks for the links. I definitely couldn't go searching for these.
@Tor I don't know what this streak is, though it looks too big for an aircraft. Possibly cloud related. JayW does a better interpretation of rammb bands.

Is there a ocean floor topographic map of that region ?
Here is the noaa bathymetric map used for the overlay with rough location of the anomaly. I think it's upwelling of deeper water from the north, though I expected to see it further west.
Full arctic map is here https://forum.arctic-sea-ice.net/index.php/topic,417.msg215159.html#msg215159
« Last Edit: August 02, 2019, 11:28:35 AM by uniquorn »

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Re: The Rammb Slider Thread
« Reply #188 on: August 02, 2019, 12:01:09 PM »
After staring myself silly I think I've made a better estimate of the location (see first picture).

The most detailed bathymetry map I could find was at https://journals.plos.org/plosone/article/figure?id=10.1371/journal.pone.0122418.g001, again I've marked the location as far as I can make it out.

There are some interesting features, what with the bump rising up to 100m depth, I'd have loved if the Rammb circles had been exactly on top of that!
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Re: The Rammb Slider Thread
« Reply #189 on: August 02, 2019, 04:05:47 PM »
Friggin' amazing. This Rammb thing, wow.

Totally agree!

Now imagine JPSS tould have a 10-minute interval as the GEOS satellites have. Or imagine a geostationary satellite with the resolution of Sentinel.  :o

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Re: The Rammb Slider Thread
« Reply #190 on: August 03, 2019, 01:02:41 AM »
A glimpse through the clouds gave a peak at the Prince Gustav Adolph Sea today.
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Re: The Rammb Slider Thread
« Reply #191 on: August 03, 2019, 08:02:25 PM »
Similar to the one discussed earlier off Svalbard.
Yep, that one is still making it's daily appearance as well.  I misspoke when I initially posted that one and said it was at 80°N , 5°E, I had the latitude line confused on the slider, it's actually 82.5°N, 5°E.

Apparently, that underwater mountain below that feature is called Yermak Plateau.
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Re: The Rammb Slider Thread
« Reply #192 on: August 03, 2019, 08:23:54 PM »
Upwelling due to the mountain ??

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Re: The Rammb Slider Thread
« Reply #193 on: August 03, 2019, 08:27:11 PM »
Upwelling due to the mountain ??

Until someone presents evidence showing otherwise, this is what i think, yes. :)
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Re: The Rammb Slider Thread
« Reply #194 on: August 03, 2019, 09:23:19 PM »
A glimpse through the clouds gave a peak at the Prince Gustav Adolph Sea today.

Just a silly question: Why does the coastline appear twice? Is this ebb/flood change area or the borders of usually fast ice?
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Re: The Rammb Slider Thread
« Reply #195 on: August 03, 2019, 09:26:56 PM »
Just a silly question: Why does the coastline appear twice? Is this ebb/flood change area or the borders of usually fast ice?

I asked myself the same question and thought it might be just an error. But now that you mention tides, that actually makes sense. If Jay doesn't know i'll ask them.
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Re: The Rammb Slider Thread
« Reply #196 on: August 03, 2019, 09:30:35 PM »
A glimpse through the clouds gave a peak at the Prince Gustav Adolph Sea today.

Just a silly question: Why does the coastline appear twice? Is this ebb/flood change area or the borders of usually fast ice?

This is why i prefer other sat-img-services, depending on the zoom level this can at time cover too many pixels and zooming in is not always an option if one wants to see the big picture.

This is personal preference whatever.

JayW

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Re: The Rammb Slider Thread
« Reply #197 on: August 03, 2019, 10:00:39 PM »
A glimpse through the clouds gave a peak at the Prince Gustav Adolph Sea today.

Just a silly question: Why does the coastline appear twice? Is this ebb/flood change area or the borders of usually fast ice?
I think it's simply imperfect overlay of coastlines, why there are two, I haven't a clue.  I just know the lines don't exactly match the coasts.  I often toggle then off, but when clouds are present it helps.   I'd also note that the rammb is still in beta I believe.   As blumenkraft mentioned, one can always send feedback and suggestions.
"To defy the laws of tradition, is a crusade only of the brave" - Les Claypool

JayW

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Re: The Rammb Slider Thread
« Reply #198 on: August 03, 2019, 10:02:15 PM »
A glimpse through the clouds gave a peak at the Prince Gustav Adolph Sea today.

Just a silly question: Why does the coastline appear twice? Is this ebb/flood change area or the borders of usually fast ice?

This is why i prefer other sat-img-services, depending on the zoom level this can at time cover too many pixels and zooming in is not always an option if one wants to see the big picture.

This is personal preference whatever.

Have you got a better resource for hourly arctic imagery?  I've looked long and hard, and find the rammb slider to offer a unique look.
"To defy the laws of tradition, is a crusade only of the brave" - Les Claypool

philopek

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Re: The Rammb Slider Thread
« Reply #199 on: August 03, 2019, 10:15:14 PM »
A glimpse through the clouds gave a peak at the Prince Gustav Adolph Sea today.

Just a silly question: Why does the coastline appear twice? Is this ebb/flood change area or the borders of usually fast ice?

This is why i prefer other sat-img-services, depending on the zoom level this can at time cover too many pixels and zooming in is not always an option if one wants to see the big picture.

This is personal preference whatever.

Have you got a better resource for hourly arctic imagery?  I've looked long and hard, and find the rammb slider to offer a unique look.

If that's the preference (frequency, i.e hourly) no, i did not come across any better while I would have to verify if the entire surface is really pictured hourly. I'm not that savvy in satellite imagery hence can't tell, perhaps I have to dig a bit deeper into the matter.

Until now i was believing that they pass once per day max but things change permanently.

Thanks for pointing at it.