When was the last flight you took?

[DrTskoul]

Short haul electric planes already becoming available. Long haul could be done using syntethically manufactured fuel made using electricity. The problem as usual is the timeline until ubiquitous deployment of such solutions.
In the meantime, it's obviously better to fly less, as it is to drive less and generally consume less. Of xourse, your mileage may vary. Literally. I know mine is hard to cut down, having a family with two teenagers and ib a country with basically nowhere to vacation to except bu short haul flights, I sin every now and then. But I would still be happy if such flights were banned or limited or made more expensive.

 Synthetic fuel made with electricity !! Ok, I agree with you that is the surest way to reduce number of flights. Because such a fuel will be quite pricey to recup costs of production....flying will be the realm of the rich only once again....

[oren]

Sterks: You are correct for the vast majority of flights, but here's a short-haul 9-seater to be available in 2022, 3 years away, with a range over 1000km and a ceiling of 10,000ft, at speed of 440 km/h.
https://www.bbc.com/news/amp/business-48630656

Note the operational cost of such planes is so low that even with very limited specs they could cause a disruption in aviation.

[DrTskoul]

Sterks: You are correct for the vast majority of flights, but here's a short-haul 9-seater to be available in 2022, 3 years away, with a range over 1000km and a ceiling of 10,000ft, at speed of 440 km/h.
https://www.bbc.com/news/amp/business-48630656

Note the operational cost of such planes is so low that even with very limited specs they could cause a disruption in aviation.

Back to the era of shaken rides... the majority of people would be scared shitless to fly a puddle jumper....

[gerontocrat]

people serious here? What are we supposed to do, stay in a freaking cabin in the middle of a forest?

Not enough cabins.
Not enough forests.

Perhaps the simple reference to an arithmetical proportion of CO2 emissions from air travel is insufficient. (And I say this as an arithmetic addict)

Perhaps the real question is will the world attempt to keep the same system going in a zero-ish sort of way - electric planes, vehicles, ships, renewable power for everything, and even if it does, will the system collapse anyway.

Some (like me) think that the addiction to air travel is a symptom of a societal disease that is not "sustainable" (defendable, defensible, justifiable, maintainable, supportable, tenable). If air miles were reduced as a result of changing attitudes to the measurement of success by things, perhaps the trashing of the planet can be brought under control - sort of.

So the breakneck growth in air travel is more of a symbol of man's recklessness than anything else ?

[gerontocrat]

people serious here? What are we supposed to do, stay in a freaking cabin in the middle of a forest?

Aviation is nothing in the CO2 share, nothing.

Not enough cabins.
Not enough forests.

Perhaps the simple reference to an arithmetical proportion of CO2 emissions from air travel is insufficient. (And I say this as an arithmetic addict)

Perhaps the real question is will the world attempt to keep the same system going in a zero-ish sort of way - electric planes, vehicles, ships, renewable power for everything, and even if it does, will the system collapse anyway.

Some (like me) think that the addiction to air travel is a symptom of a societal disease that is not "sustainable" (defendable, defensible, justifiable, maintainable, supportable, tenable). If air miles were reduced as a result of changing attitudes to the measurement of success by things, perhaps the trashing of the planet can be brought under control - sort of.

So the breakneck growth in air travel is more of a symbol of man's recklessness than anything else ?

[nanning]

<snip>
Some (like me) think that the addiction to air travel is a symptom of a societal disease that is not "sustainable" (defendable,

I'm with you. And I wish I was so eloquent.

[SteveMDFP]

Some (like me) think that the addiction to air travel is a symptom of a societal disease that is not "sustainable" (defendable, defensible, justifiable, maintainable, supportable, tenable). If air miles were reduced as a result of changing attitudes to the measurement of success by things, perhaps the trashing of the planet can be brought under control - sort of.

So the breakneck growth in air travel is more of a symbol of man's recklessness than anything else ?

Most air travel seems to be convenience, luxury, and vanity.  There are vast numbers of people who zip around the globe apparently so they can take selfies at Machu Picchu.  Or get in line for the summit of Mt. Everest (etc).

The question is how to affect the global culture to tamp down this eco-insane vanity.  A very steep tax on fossil jet fuel strikes me as a good start.  Let the industry figure out how to use biofuel or electric or liquid hydrogen or trains or whatever.

[gerontocrat]

Most air travel seems to be convenience, luxury, and vanity.  There are vast numbers of people who zip around the globe apparently so they can take selfies at Machu Picchu.  Or get in line for the summit of Mt. Everest (etc).

The question is how to affect the global culture to tamp down this eco-insane vanity.  A very steep tax on fossil jet fuel strikes me as a good start.  Let the industry figure out how to use biofuel or electric or liquid hydrogen or trains or whatever.

And when they've gone "sustainable" insane growth in air travel can continue unabated and an all-weather path built to the top of Mt. Everest?

The UK's headlong charge to a no-deal Brexit makes a sort of analogy. I mean, what could possibly go wrong?

[Sterks]

people serious here? What are we supposed to do, stay in a freaking cabin in the middle of a forest?

Not enough cabins.
Not enough forests.

Perhaps the simple reference to an arithmetical proportion of CO2 emissions from air travel is insufficient. (And I say this as an arithmetic addict)

Perhaps the real question is will the world attempt to keep the same system going in a zero-ish sort of way - electric planes, vehicles, ships, renewable power for everything, and even if it does, will the system collapse anyway.

Some (like me) think that the addiction to air travel is a symptom of a societal disease that is not "sustainable" (defendable, defensible, justifiable, maintainable, supportable, tenable). If air miles were reduced as a result of changing attitudes to the measurement of success by things, perhaps the trashing of the planet can be brought under control - sort of.

So the breakneck growth in air travel is more of a symbol of man's recklessness than anything else ?

I’m with you philosophically speaking, really. But to want to pull the plug to fossil-fuel based aircraft altogether as some contributors suggest above is to want us all back to the caverns, and no thank you, I live very comfortably in my flat and love to go places.
And air transport can’t be, unfortunately, non-fossil-fuel-based unless a breakthrough technology emerges.

All that I am saying is that if my town subsidizes electric installation for my garage spot (I already have it) and substantial subsidizing electric / penalizing gas ( the entering government has promised) the move to electric can be massive, and only taking into account the efficiency savings, you will eventually have greater savings only for that than the percentage you burn in airplanes.

Being realistic, I prefer the ‘small’ political push than to cause a civilization crash.

And WTF, flying is a wonderful thing I don’t feel ashamed of.

Cavemen can start by switching off Internet, requires energy of suspicious origin.

[be cause]

just found one of my 'greener' friends has changed to climate denier on her return from her third Ireland -Peru trip of the year .. more planned ffs ! .. her fb is now full of supporters for her new stance .. folk like me will be 'dropped from a plane' come the revoloution ..

[DrTskoul]

just found one of my 'greener' friends has changed to climate denier on her return from her third Ireland -Peru trip of the year .. more planned ffs ! .. her fb is now full of supporters for her new stance .. folk like me will be 'dropped from a plane' come the revoloution ..

What is her argument of the change?? Just curious....

[be cause]

her latest .. Time magazine covers .. prepare for an ice-age in the 70's .. now it's global warming .. can't trust the science .. b.c .
https://scontent-lhr3-1.xx.fbcdn.net/v/t1.0-9/67946289_2283608668404463_4699064190306877440_n.jpg?_nc_cat=102&_nc_oc=AQlNH0cdGzKUaXE61ySUf1Liv_pCzh_201bygpFZt5ffDJ9W3X0nl_1B3rcwbB2hBrk&_nc_ht=scontent-lhr3-1.xx&oh=eb1ce4bad626f220c879307d220e4a28&oe=5DD653FA

[SteveMDFP]

What is her argument of the change?? Just curious....

Most people will adopt the attitudes and opinions of their peer group.  It's usually not a rational process.

Hang out with pleasure-seeking jet-setters, and you'll embrace the same attitudes they do.

Good luck changing that dynamic as long as jetting is cheap.

[DrTskoul]

her latest .. Time magazine covers .. prepare for an ice-age in the 70's .. now it's global warming .. can't trust the science .. b.c .
https://scontent-lhr3-1.xx.fbcdn.net/v/t1.0-9/67946289_2283608668404463_4699064190306877440_n.jpg?_nc_cat=102&_nc_oc=AQlNH0cdGzKUaXE61ySUf1Liv_pCzh_201bygpFZt5ffDJ9W3X0nl_1B3rcwbB2hBrk&_nc_ht=scontent-lhr3-1.xx&oh=eb1ce4bad626f220c879307d220e4a28&oe=5DD653FA

Right winger ?

[Neven]

She needs both wings to get to where she (has been made to think she) wants to be.

[be cause]

I suppose it's the story of facepuke .. groth at any and every cost .. b.c.

[nanning]

<snip>
 .. folk like me will be 'dropped from a plane' come the revoloution ..

That reaction looks more and more the way it'll go. We are already in a 'hell' in my view. I fear for all the good and the poor people. One of the reasons I don't want to be alive when it goes all topsy-turvy.

<snip>
So the breakneck growth in air travel is more of a symbol of man's recklessness than anything else ?

I think it is utter stupidity. Extreme insanity.
Why keep people saying "we humans are so smart"?

[philopek]

<snip>
 .. folk like me will be 'dropped from a plane' come the revoloution ..

That reaction looks more and more the way it'll go. We are already in a 'hell' in my view. I fear for all the good and the poor people. One of the reasons I don't want to be alive when it goes all topsy-turvy.

<snip>
So the breakneck growth in air travel is more of a symbol of man's recklessness than anything else ?

I think it is utter stupidity. Extreme insanity.
Why keep people saying "we humans are so smart"?

Because we compare with animals instead of all that exists, know and yet unknown in universe.

among all living creatures and considering all kinds of skills, mental and physical, we are most probably the smartest species while we mostly abuse our skills to "trump"over nature and our fellow humans instead of making wise use of said skills and talents.

[Anne]

The Shame Plane site claims to calculate how much Arctic ice is lost as a result of an individual flight between named destinations, and takes into account lifestyle offsets.

I can't vouch for its reliability but perhaps someone here can help. There's a brief discussion of it on Vox here.

(My last flight was in 2011, btw. ETA: I ticked the wrong box by mistake, can't seem to change it.)

[nanning]

<snip>
"trump"over nature and our fellow humans instead of making wise use of said skills and talents.

Hi philopek, I'm just curious what you think 'wise use' will be like?
Is it what uncontacted nature tribes are doing? They resisted the temptation of trumping nature.
It is through technology we can give in to this temptation I think. Without it, not so much trumping.

Maybe this is too off topic?

[philopek]

<snip>
"trump"over nature and our fellow humans instead of making wise use of said skills and talents.

Hi philopek, I'm just curious what you think 'wise use' will be like?
Is it what uncontacted nature tribes are doing? They resisted the temptation of trumping nature.
It is through technology we can give in to this temptation I think. Without it, not so much trumping.

Maybe this is too off topic?

I very much appreciate your question and the way you ask

As we both know wisdom is  a huge topic and there is no such thing like matter of fact objective wisdom.

Nevertheless there are a few ingredients to wisdom that are generally valid, hence i shall limit my reply to those and withouth claim that the list is in any way complete:

- experience
- ego-control
- ethics (not morale, morale is man made dogma in too many cases)
- modesty
- diligence
- love, respect etc.
- readiness to give more than to receive
- consequence
- a certain minimum of intellect while no Einstein level is necessary if the above are present
- willingness to accept facts like laws of physics and other natural laws, some are eternal
.  and again others are epochal etc.

I hope that those keywords contain enough hinting to what I consider ingredients for wisdom
while genuine "goodwill" love, respect, and not too much self-importance are a must and i do not
mean romantic love, at least not exclusively

[bluesky]

I flew back  Italy in 2010 for a compulsory field study, but travelled by train from London for the outbound. I then flew to Copenhagen from Lyon to bring back a suitcase that a long time friend living in Malmö, I was back by boat and by train. I then flew to Kiev to visit the city and Lvov in 2013, and was back to London by train, since then I have given up flying for private reasons, to my dismay I had to fly to Madrid for professional reasons this year but could not really say no. My friend in Malmö is getting married during a weekend in September , I will not be able to attend as the company where I work did not allow me to take days before and after in order to travel by train both way. I know many people in London who seem to be well aware of the current climate and environmental crisis but who would never give flying 5 to 20 times a year for personal reasons, we live in a schizophrenic world

[Tom_Mazanec]

Well, this Pilgrimage next month is my last.
The parish just announced that their next Pilgrimage will be in 2022, to Lourdes, Fatima and the Vatican. I am so glad they are doing the Israel one first...I would have gone to Europe and then not been able to go to The Holy Land later after my "awakening" on AGW. I would rather go to Israel and Jesus outranks the Pope.

[VideoGameVet]

Short haul electric planes already becoming available. Long haul could be done using syntethically manufactured fuel made using electricity. The problem as usual is the timeline until ubiquitous deployment of such solutions.
In the meantime, it's obviously better to fly less, as it is to drive less and generally consume less. Of xourse, your mileage may vary. Literally. I know mine is hard to cut down, having a family with two teenagers and ib a country with basically nowhere to vacation to except bu short haul flights, I sin every now and then. But I would still be happy if such flights were banned or limited or made more expensive.

 Synthetic fuel made with electricity !! Ok, I agree with you that is the surest way to reduce number of flights. Because such a fuel will be quite pricey to recup costs of production....flying will be the realm of the rich only once again....

So, some thoughts on this.  Assuming you are starting with hydrogen created by electrolysis of water you can use electrical sources (solar/wind) that aren't 24/7.

Hydrogen has a specific energy of 143 MJ/kg or about 40 kWh/kg) and requires 50–55 kWh of electricity to produce 1kg. At an electricity cost of $0.06/kWh, as set out in the Department of Energy hydrogen production targets for 2015, the hydrogen cost is $3/kg.  Jet A (and pretty much all of the others) has a specific energy of 42.8 MJ/kg.

Jet fuel runs about $1.70/liter and a liter weighs 0.81 kg.  So per. kg Jet fuel runs $2.10/kg.

The unknown is the cost of turning that hydrogen into liquid fuel.

[TerryM]

^^
And the weight of the containment vessel.
Terry

[VideoGameVet]

^^
And the weight of the containment vessel.
Terry

You really REALLY want a compatible liquid fuel.  Not storing liquid hydrogen on the aircraft.

So that involves carbon capture and some chemistry. 

Here's an effort that captures CO2, combines with Hydrogen to create Syngas and then converts that info a liquid fuel:

https://www.bbc.com/news/business-49725741

[VideoGameVet]

The other liquid fuel from hydrogen candidate is NH3 (Ammonia), which is less difficult to synthesize from hydrogen but does have some issues using it as a fuel.

[VideoGameVet]

I did take a flight recently, my first vacation longer than a week in over 20 years.  I'd love to know the best method for paying out carbon credits on that.

In March I have a speaking engagement at the Game Developers Conference (in San Francisco) and since I use Amtrak between where I live (San Diego area) and Los Angeles every week, I have sufficient points to take the train (or combo of train and bus) for free to that event. 

Yes, it's a slow train, but I'll have WiFi and I won't have to deal with the FUN of airline travel.

[Tom_Mazanec]

Maybe getting those LED lights for everything cancels some out?
Our Parish's next Pilgrimage is in 2022 to Fatima, Lourdes and a Papal audience in the Vatican.
I am glad they are having the Holy Land Pilgrimage first. I would rather go there (Jesus outranks the Blessed Virgin Mary and the Pope combined).

[oren]

I'm a godless person myself, but the current pope is my hero. (OT, sorry)

Regarding the cost of flights with synthetic fuel made with electricity - with an overbuild of solar and wind, intermittent electricity at peak production times could become extremely cheap if not truly zero. If/when that happens, with nearly free energy and readily harvestable raw materials (hydrogen, carbon) syntethic jet fuel could become cheap to make.
Be that as it may, current flights are only cheap because the pollution is free. Flights should cost much more, and/or banned outright (wishful thinking), until a clean solution is found.

[VideoGameVet]

I'm a godless person myself, but the current pope is my hero. (OT, sorry)

Regarding the cost of flights with synthetic fuel made with electricity - with an overbuild of solar and wind, intermittent electricity at peak production times could become extremely cheap if not truly zero. If/when that happens, with nearly free energy and readily harvestable raw materials (hydrogen, carbon) syntethic jet fuel could become cheap to make.
Be that as it may, current flights are only cheap because the pollution is free. Flights should cost much more, and/or banned outright (wishful thinking), until a clean solution is found.

It needs to be noted that the fossil fuel industry knew all about climate change over 40 years ago and did nothing to come up with renewable fuels etc.

So why it's GREAT to promote better individual choices, I'm not for shamin&blaming people who have to fly for their work.  The blame rests with the fuel industry.

[kassy]

Put a price on carbon. Airline tickets become more expensive.

The employer will be more critical towards the flight. I once worked at an international company where costs became a huge issue and suddenly teleconferences were a thing.

You can´t do everything that way so some people will have to fly but a higher price will lead to less people being required too by the employer.

A higher price should also cut into the city trips. You could do a weekend in Barcelona sometimes for less then it would take to go by train to Berlin. But what do you do on just a weekend? If you really want to see a place you might as well take more time.

On flights.

Can i not count my last flight?

So my mom booked a round trip to ancient Greece with a lady friend. All the cool stuff like Athens, Delphi, the site of the Olympics etc. I told her it was a great trip.

Then less then a week before the trip started her friend had an accident and she could not go. So my mom called me and i got to take the trip. I did not have to pay to pay for the tickets. The sites were great and it was quality time with my mum. And best of all...

The planes and the busses would have flown and driven anyway so technically this was a zero CO2 holiday.

[Tom_Mazanec]

You people will be glad to know that I have decided to cancel my trip.
I guess my last airplane flight was the one I took to see my cousin at her Colorado home.

[nanning]

^^
Good for life on Earth and for you Tom . A high morality, radical choice through pulses from your conscience I guess.

You could go instead on a local hermitage like I did. Personal sacrifices make you stronger and more pure.

[folke_kelm]

i take the plane 4-8 times a year. I never take flights for holydays or just for fun. If i travel for vacation i do it by train or by (nowadays) electric car.
I attend to european conferences about environmental issues and a very important point about these conferences is networking. You can not have it by skype meeting. Discussions about ongoing research or ideas will be done just aside the scheduled lectures or at lunch or coffee breaks.
The not so funny thing about these flights is, that they are not only cheaper than train, but that a trip to Washington DC does only cost twice as much than a trip to Frankfurt in Germany which just takes 1 hour from my home near Gothenburg / Sweden.
this year my conferences will be in Malmö (by train), Porto (flight), Oslo (train) and AGU fall meeting by flight of course.
If there had been a possibility to take night trains across Europe it would be appreciated, but today it is not possible to get to countries beyond our nearest neighbours in less than one day, mostly it requieres two days with frequent changes of train.

[Tom_Mazanec]

nanning:
To be honest, that was secondary or even tertiary in my thoughts.
Me and my cousin/guardian were on the verge of nervous breakdowns trying to get me ready and I realized going halfway around the world on my own, even in a Church group, would be a disaster.

[philopek]

I never take flights for holydays or just for fun. If i travel for vacation i do it by train or by (nowadays) electric car.
I attend to european conferences about environmental issues and a very important point about these conferences is networking. You can not have it by skype meeting. Discussions about ongoing research or ideas will be done just aside the scheduled lectures or at lunch or coffee breaks.
The not so funny thing about these flights is, that they are not only cheaper than train, but that a trip to Washington DC does only cost twice as much than a trip to Frankfurt in Germany which just takes 1 hour from my home near Gothenburg / Sweden.
this year my conferences will be in Malmö (by train), Porto (flight), Oslo (train) and AGU fall meeting by flight of course.
If there had been a possibility to take night trains across Europe it would be appreciated, but today it is not possible to get to countries beyond our nearest neighbours in less than one day, mostly it requieres two days with frequent changes of train.

nighttrains are on their way back to be regularly scheduled around europe as far as i heard.

I have to fly a similar number of times per year like you.

i very much dislike to fly nowadays but like you i have to see people at destinations where is not much choice. usually i combine such necessary flights with extended stop-overs, means, with making holidays along the route i fly anyways.

for now i at least cancelled all my asian business so i don't have to fly bangkok > hongkong and vice versa several times a year.

when i fly from CZ to ES I calculated that i save more fossil heating means than the flight is consuming which is why i built a retirement home in the south and only head north for duties and necessary tasks, similar to business trips, at least if we consider legal requirements and civil duties as necessary to comply with

[kassy]

Basically the EU can get huge gains from integrating the flight control zones which are still run by the countries.

This should help both the world and the business so it is sad that it still is somewhere in territory wars or whatever their excuse is. 

Actual night trains and a more integrated railway would be great too.

[VideoGameVet]

Well, to take a train (technically a bus and a train) from the San Diego area to San Francisco runs about 10 hours (vs. 1.5 for a flight).  But it’s only $61 each way and like I said, there’s WiFi.

[philopek]

Well, to take a train (technically a bus and a train) from the San Diego area to San Francisco runs about 10 hours (vs. 1.5 for a flight).  But it’s only $61 each way and like I said, there’s WiFi.

add the ride to and from the airport, luggage claim waiting time and the pre-boarding waiting time due to mandatory early show up and security check of unknown length and you easily get up to the 5 hour mark if not more, depending.

Assuming that most major train connections start somewhere in or around city centers that makes the difference much smaller.

Unfortunately your railway system compared to the french, chinese, japanese etc. is way outdated.
L.A. to S.F. could easily be done within 4 hours or less with a TGV or AVE.

[VideoGameVet]

Well, to take a train (technically a bus and a train) from the San Diego area to San Francisco runs about 10 hours (vs. 1.5 for a flight).  But it’s only $61 each way and like I said, there’s WiFi.

add the ride to and from the airport, luggage claim waiting time and the pre-boarding waiting time due to mandatory early show up and security check of unknown length and you easily get up to the 5 hour mark if not more, depending.

Assuming that most major train connections start somewhere in or around city centers that makes the difference much smaller.

Unfortunately your railway system compared to the french, chinese, japanese etc. is way outdated.
L.A. to S.F. could easily be done within 4 hours or less with a TGV or AVE.

Yeah, I've done the Shinkansen, Thales and Eurostar.  This Bus/Train trip is 12 hours, but hey ... it's free for me.  Doing a red-eye so I can sleep on the trip and save myself one expensive San Francisco hotel night.

[jens]

2011 was when I took my last flight. I wasn't as environmentally aware back then, so I didn't stop due to these reasons. But I just felt like I had "seen enough" of the world, so didn't feel the need to travel around. I just need regular access to nearby wild nature outside the civilization to keep me in balance.