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Sigmetnow

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Re: Electric cars
« Reply #1050 on: December 11, 2019, 07:46:36 PM »
Quote
Assuming they had similar specs and you had to pick one
What a weird way to ask the question. The issue is these all-electric pickup trucks don't have similar specs, nor similar prices, so what are the answers even supposed to mean?
So, assume the Rivian has a 6.5' bed? And a starting price of $39k? Rather than 4.5' and $69k.
Assume the unknown Ford and GM pickups will have the same features and pricing of the Cybertruck?
If I were answering this survey myself I wouldn't know how to answer. IMHO the results are almost useless.

Because they say participants were “selected,” (and because the choices were so equally picked) I think the purpose of the survey was to take an ~equal number of Ford, GM, Rivian and Cybertruck boosters, and compare the importance of brand loyalty and reasons-for-choosing the truck they did, rather than comparing the trucks’ features, which as you note would be difficult to do in a survey. 

A vehicle feature of importance to one person will not be important to someone else, so instead, they were examining broader considerations.
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Sigmetnow

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Re: Electric cars
« Reply #1051 on: December 11, 2019, 07:50:19 PM »
Wait What? You Can't Charge The Ford Mustang Mach-E At Home?
Quote
While Ford's upcoming all-electric Mustang Mach-E is slated to be the first true Tesla competitor in terms of range and performance, it seems the legacy OEM needs to do its homework and educate dealerships.

In an interesting share, EV Bite reached out to some 15 Ford dealerships within a 200-mile radius, only to get either no valuable information or details that were seemingly completely wrong. We can only hope that you'll find the video [below], which is essentially a recording of such calls, extremely humorous. To say that we laughed very hard here is an understatement. ...
https://insideevs.com/news/387313/video-ford-mustang-mach-e-concerns-charging/

The final call is to a Tesla store.
Calling Ford Dealerships and Asking About the Mustang Mach E

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blumenkraft

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Re: Electric cars
« Reply #1052 on: December 11, 2019, 09:08:42 PM »
This is actually really funny! I'm LMAO here.
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kassy

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Re: Electric cars
« Reply #1053 on: December 12, 2019, 01:55:40 PM »
The guy at the end had a proper pitch.
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Sigmetnow

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Re: Electric cars
« Reply #1054 on: December 12, 2019, 08:08:59 PM »
That’s the spirit! :)

GM expects Cadillac to be majority, if not all, EVs by 2030
Dec 12 2019
Quote
DETROIT — General Motors expects a majority, if not all, of its Cadillac cars and SUVs sold globally to be all-electric vehicles by 2030, according to a company executive.

Cadillac President Steve Carlisle on Thursday said the brand will phase out current models of internal combustion engines based on market demand. He expects an inflection point for electric vehicles for the brand to occur in the mid-2020s.

"We're going to enter that decade as an internal combustion engine brand. That's where we are. We've never been better positioned as an internal combustion brand," he said during a media event Thursday in Detroit. "It's a decade we're also going to exit as a battery-electric brand. There's a lot that's going to be going on for Cadillac in the '20s."

Cadillac is expected to release its first all-electric vehicle as early as 2021 as part of GM's plans to debut 20 new all-electric vehicles globally by 2023. The company previewed the crossover in January.

Carlisle also confirmed that the company expects to offer a large electric SUV similar to the Escalade, if not under the iconic SUV's name.
https://www.cnbc.com/2019/12/12/gm-expects-cadillac-to-be-majority-if-not-all-evs-by-2030.html
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NeilT

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Re: Electric cars
« Reply #1055 on: December 12, 2019, 08:47:47 PM »
But are these Musk years or normal years?  8)
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Sigmetnow

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Re: Electric cars
« Reply #1056 on: December 13, 2019, 03:07:29 AM »
2020 Porsche Taycan Turbo Gets EPA Range Rating Of Just 201 Miles
https://insideevs.com/news/387298/2020-porsche-taycan-turbo-epa-range/amp/

The cheating is strong with this one. Porsche sent an email to its U.S. customers noting that while the EPA assigned a 201-mile range, Porsche found another test lab using different criteria to give it 275 miles.  Do they figure no one remembers the worthless NEDC ratings Europe worked so hard to be rid of?
From: https://twitter.com/italianmaster/status/1204879311179616257
Image below.

—-
Jessica Meckmann on Twitter used  abetterrouteplanner.com to calculate the charging needs of the 201-mile-range Taycan Turbo on a trip from Munich to Berlin. To avoid needing an extra 1 hour charging stop and a detour, the car’s speed needed to be limited to 130km/hr for most of the distance.  Travel time: 5 hr 3 min.
“- Same trip with the @Tesla Model S Raven. Same 200km/h top speed but no speed limitation required.  Travel Time: 4h:22m”
“Taycan without speed limitation: 7h:38m”
Data and more at:  https://twitter.com/meckimac/status/1204856669806706690

—-
How fast is the Taycan’s 800V charging?  Not as fast as you might expect..
Quote
RandySustainableMeat (@RandyVegetables) 12/11/19, 7:09 PM
Taycan charges at a peak 270kw. Model S/X peaks at about 200kw and Model S peaks at 250kw. But in MPH [max rate, measured in miles of range added per hour], it looks like this:
Taycan = ~590
Model X = ~650
Model S = ~740
Model 3 = ~1000
Taycan has highest charge rate, and slowest charging speed. Peak rates, but still crazy.
https://twitter.com/randyvegetables/status/1204916079979483136

———
Not that long ago, 100-mile range was “workable for a city car.”  Now it seems 200 miles isn’t enough….
Quote
Sam Abuelsamid (@samabuelsamid) 12/12/19, 3:27 PM
 It's great that manufacturers are trying to make sure batteries last. But that is separate from energy efficiency. I'm fine with using only 88% of the capacity, but 46-49 kWh/100 miles is really bad. Bolt and Kona get 28 and MX is 35. Lux brands need to do better
https://twitter.com/samabuelsamid/status/1205222648348852228
< EV fandom's cannibalism makes me sad. I miss the halcyon days of "any car that doesn't have panel gap tolerances of ±2 microns is a failure."
<< Shoot, at this point any EV that doesn't play Cuphead is a failure.
<<< Well that is true.

—-
Quote
Earl of FrunkPuppy(@28delayslater) 12/11/19, 3:12 PM
Can you imagine if the #Tesla #Model3 was given EPA range of 201 ;D
https://twitter.com/28delayslater/status/1204856465036582912

2017:  Tesla actually requested the EPA lower its rating on the Model 3.
Tesla could be underselling Model 3's range and charging capacity, reveals EPA document
https://electrek.co/2017/10/26/tesla-model-3-range-charging-capacity-underselling-epa-document/

—-
Tesla Cybertruck Screen Shows Range Of 620 Miles
https://insideevs.com/news/387299/tesla-cybertruck-range-620-miles/
Tesla says it will go over 500 miles, but 620 is truly shocking.
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nanning

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Re: Electric cars
« Reply #1057 on: December 13, 2019, 06:26:29 AM »
^^
Another advertorial for the 1 %
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NeilT

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Re: Electric cars
« Reply #1058 on: December 13, 2019, 10:10:18 AM »
Actually in the UK it is for the 16% that pay 46% of the taxes.

They, plus the other 38% who pay all the direct taxes in the UK, just spoke.

They didn't vote for restricting the people, for constrictive socolialist rules or for fairytale spending to pull utilities back into public hands.

They voted for what they considered to be their own best interest.

If you ignored me every other time I said it, the time to listen is this day when the evidence is right in front of you.

In fighting climate change the most dangerous thing to do is piss off the majority of people with a vote.
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Sigmetnow

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Re: Electric cars
« Reply #1059 on: December 13, 2019, 01:23:01 PM »
The Porsche Taycan is one of the least efficient EVs the EPA has ever tested
Quote
If you are going to make a serious Tesla rival (or a serious electric car, period), range needs to be high on your list. With that in mind, Porsche used an all new, specialized EV architecture for the Taycan, an 800-volt battery pack (as opposed to the normal 400) and other tweaks to make it go as far as possible on a single charge. And the end result? 201 miles of range and 69 MPGe. Or, to put it another way, 3 fewer miles of range and 5 fewer MPGe than Audi managed with a 400-volt battery stuck into a converted gas-engine platform, on a car that weighs nearly 1,000 pounds more than the Taycan. And even more significantly, that's nearly 200 fewer miles than the top spec Tesla Model S--a car that is nearly $60,000 less than the starting price of the Taycan Turbo that performed the test--and that's before you factor in Porsche's famously expensive option pricing. At the risk of stating the obvious, this is disastrous for the Taycan, and could sink its chance at luring away Tesla buyers.

Actually, let's be fair about this. The Taycan is not the least efficient production EV the EPA has ever tested. There are two that score lower than the Taycan: the 2001 Th!nk City Car (not a typo) and the 1999 GM EV-1. Also, the 2000 Toyota RAV4 EV, converted from a now-20 year old car with now-20 year old battery technology, only scored 3 more MPGe than the brand-new, purpose-built, top of the line, $152,000 Porsche electric car. Oh. When I say it like that it sounds even worse.

Porsche, understandably, were horrified at the results, and got a fuel-economy testing organization called the AMCI to do their own tests. They achieved a combined 275 miles of range--but I personally would take that with a grain of salt until it can be confirmed by buyers.

When the Taycan came out, I thought it would be the first serious competitor to the Tesla Model S. As it turns out, though, I was wrong. The first serious competitor, it seems, is still yet to come. Maybe Audi will have better luck with this platform?
https://drivetribe.com/p/the-porsche-taycan-is-one-of-the-eukrUADgQXCXvZCc2TMvMg
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kassy

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Re: Electric cars
« Reply #1060 on: December 13, 2019, 01:35:37 PM »
So what is the advantage of a double battery pack? Do they need that to accelerate quicker/reach a higher top speed or is Porsche just really bad at batteries?

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Sigmetnow

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Re: Electric cars
« Reply #1061 on: December 13, 2019, 01:51:26 PM »
So what is the advantage of a double battery pack? Do they need that to accelerate quicker/reach a higher top speed or is Porsche just really bad at batteries?

Batteries, motors, advanced battery management software... sacrifices for weight and aerodynamics... the tech Tesla has optimized, while other companies fell into the trap of thinking, “EVs are easy, we can just throw things together and beat Tesla with our brand loyalty alone.”
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NeilT

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Re: Electric cars
« Reply #1062 on: December 13, 2019, 02:38:30 PM »
There is an analysis which shows the BMW i3 has the least efficient transmission the magazine had tested.  There is also a review out there which states that the Mini-E is worse than the i3 and worse than the eMini sold a decade ago.

The traditional vehicle manufacturers are finding that more money and more, well, everything, doesn't make a better and more efficient EV.

The bad news for Tesla is that they learn fast. Whether that will be fast enough in this climate is yet to be seen.
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Sigmetnow

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Re: Electric cars
« Reply #1063 on: December 13, 2019, 09:29:55 PM »
There is an analysis which shows the BMW i3 has the least efficient transmission the magazine had tested.  There is also a review out there which states that the Mini-E is worse than the i3 and worse than the eMini sold a decade ago.

The traditional vehicle manufacturers are finding that more money and more, well, everything, doesn't make a better and more efficient EV.

The bad news for Tesla is that they learn fast. Whether that will be fast enough in this climate is yet to be seen.

Learning and executing are two different things....

BMW commits to i3 electric car production until 2024
https://electrek.co/2019/12/13/bmw-i3-electric-car-production-2024/
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Sigmetnow

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Re: Electric cars
« Reply #1064 on: December 13, 2019, 10:01:32 PM »
2020: In the E.U., car manufacturers must sell emissions-free vehicles in volume or pay stiff EU penalties.  Consumer incentives to reduce the price of an EV by as much as 6,000 euros (about $6,500) are offered in Germany, France, and to a lesser extent, the United Kingdom.

Why Europe will see the world’s biggest EV uptick in 2020
https://electrek.co/2019/12/12/why-europe-will-see-the-worlds-biggest-ev-uptick-in-2020/

——
Meanwhile, the U.S. is getting an electric fire truck.  Maybe.

This $6 million electric fire engine is coming to the US
https://electrek.co/2019/12/12/electric-fire-engine-us/
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oren

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Re: Electric cars
« Reply #1065 on: December 13, 2019, 11:10:08 PM »
So what is the advantage of a double battery pack? Do they need that to accelerate quicker/reach a higher top speed or is Porsche just really bad at batteries?
I think Porsche did that for better acceleration, top speed, and sustained high output over time. But they failed to optimize for high range under normal driving.

Sigmetnow

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Re: Electric cars
« Reply #1066 on: December 14, 2019, 12:29:16 AM »
So what is the advantage of a double battery pack? Do they need that to accelerate quicker/reach a higher top speed or is Porsche just really bad at batteries?
I think Porsche did that for better acceleration, top speed, and sustained high output over time. But they failed to optimize for high range under normal driving.

Not even as far as a 7-minute trip around the Nürburgring?!  ;)
They did demonstrate 30 consecutive 0-124 mph launches.  I guess that’s the car’s forte. :)
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NeilT

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Re: Electric cars
« Reply #1067 on: December 14, 2019, 01:02:14 PM »
I must admit that when I read 800 volts I was reminded of a conversation with one of my Uncles whe was a Naval electrician.  He told me about an electrician working on the 800v ship systems. The sailor struck an ark then he screamed, couldn't help himself, the ark went right inside him and boiled him from the inside.

It didn't enamour me to a vehicle running these kinds of voltages.

I suspect they did it to allow far more deliverable power to the motor whilst retaining standard 400v charging architecture.
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Sigmetnow

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Re: Electric cars
« Reply #1068 on: December 14, 2019, 01:58:38 PM »
So what is the advantage of a double battery pack? Do they need that to accelerate quicker/reach a higher top speed or is Porsche just really bad at batteries?
I think Porsche did that for better acceleration, top speed, and sustained high output over time. But they failed to optimize for high range under normal driving.

Not even as far as a 7-minute trip around the Nürburgring?!  ;)
They did demonstrate 30 consecutive 0-124 mph launches.  I guess that’s the car’s forte. :)

The funny/sad thing is, if they surveyed Porsche drivers, the majority probably just want to tool around town, showing off in something shaped/labeled as a Porsche that can beat most other cars off the line from a stop light.  So the Taycan fits that need really well.  It just doesn’t make much sense for anyone else.  Remember, the 201 miles was for the mid-range model; the base model will have an EPA range under 200 miles.  That won’t win Porsche many converts from other brands.
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NeilT

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Re: Electric cars
« Reply #1069 on: December 14, 2019, 02:20:08 PM »
2020: In the E.U., car manufacturers must sell emissions-free vehicles in volume or pay stiff EU penalties.

Well, to be more specific, the manufacturers must reduce their fleet to an average emissions of 95g per km.

The EU are allowing the manufacturers to claim 0 emissions for EV's, giving 95g back for each EV sold, regardless of the actual emissions of the electricity generaged.

The latest Prius and the smart car are already under 95g, but not by a lot. So they don't get as much mitigation as if they sell an EV. IF Toyota were to sell one EV they would get the same mitigation as 9 Prius.
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Sigmetnow

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Re: Electric cars
« Reply #1070 on: December 16, 2019, 03:30:56 AM »
Mercedes Delays Electric EQC U.S. Debut After Jaguar and Audi SUVs Flop
December 15, 2019
      U.S. launch of EQC crossover gets pushed back a year to 2021
      Jaguar’s I-Pace, Audi’s e-tron trail Tesla’s years-old models
Quote
Mercedes-Benz is putting off the U.S. debut of its first electric vehicle by a year in the latest sign of just how difficult a time automakers are having replicating Tesla Inc.’s success.

Daimler AG’s luxury brand will start sales of the EQC crossover in 2021 rather than early next year. The German carmaker said in an emailed statement that it’s made the strategic decision to first support growing demand for the model in Europe, where deliveries began earlier this year.

The world’s top-seller of premium autos has touted the EQC and the series of battery-powered models it has planned under the EQ sub-brand as an answer both to Tesla and its traditional rivals. But the initial electric vehicles Jaguar and Audi introduced in the U.S. market this year have underwhelmed on the sales charts, failing to keep up even with Tesla’s years-old Model S and X.

Daimler has at least 10 purely battery-powered cars planned through 2022 to help meet tougher emissions rules around the globe. But while regulatory pressure is picking up, U.S. demand has been tepid for models other than Tesla’s lower-priced Model 3. Consumers continue to harbor concerns about limited driving range, long charging times and high sticker prices.

Jaguar has sold 2,418 I-Pace SUVs in the U.S. this year through November, while Audi has delivered 4,623 e-tron crossovers, according to InsideEVs. By contrast, the website estimates that Tesla has sold about 111,650 Model 3 sedans.

Luxury-car makers’ biggest retailers are divided over the outlook for electric cars in the U.S. In February, the president of Sonic Automotive Inc., the fifth-largest U.S. dealership group in the country, wondered aloud on an earnings call whether Tesla had built a cult following for its cars and said the brand needed to be taken seriously by BMW and others.

But in October, Roger Penske, the chief executive officer of Penske Automotive Group Inc., said the I-Pace hasn’t sold as expected and that consumers have been canceling orders for the e-tron.

“They’re expensive, and everyone has range anxiety, and to me, what’s going to be the residual value at the end?” Penske said during an earnings call. “The growth is going to be slow.”
https://www.bloomberg.com/amp/news/articles/2019-12-13/mercedes-delays-electric-debut-after-jaguar-and-audi-suvs-flop

——-
The Top Gear car review: Mercedes-Benz EQC
Quote
Among the first wave of posh electric crossovers, it’s quite small. The Jaguar I-Pace is similar in footprint but has a significantly longer wheelbase to improve cabin room. The Audi e-tron is bigger, and the Tesla Model X far bigger. And yet the Mercedes is the heaviest of the lot, at two-and-a-half tonnes.

Here’s why.  The EQC has the same suspension and most of the underbody as the GLC. To make sure it behaves in the same protective way in a crash, it even has steel-tube replicas of the combustion car’s engine block and gearbox housing, except here they mostly enclose fresh air rather than pistons and gears. So you don’t get the airy cabin or flat floor of a Tesla or Jaguar.
https://www.topgear.com/car-reviews/mercedes-benz/eqc
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Re: Electric cars
« Reply #1071 on: December 16, 2019, 03:45:38 AM »
Resale value is a real concern when the technology is changing so fast, a 200-250 mile range may seem ridiculous only a few years from now - making the car near worthless on the resale market.

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Re: Electric cars
« Reply #1072 on: December 16, 2019, 04:07:59 AM »
 200-250 mile range may seem ridiculous only a few years from now.


Sigmetnow

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Re: Electric cars
« Reply #1073 on: December 16, 2019, 04:57:52 AM »
An even greater disruption will occur when new car buyers realize that buying an ICE car would be like throwing money away, due to their rapid depreciation because the used car market is being flooded with ICE cars as people trade them in for EVs.  Today, it’s happening with luxury cars like BMW, Mercedes and Audi.  Soon it will be Camrys and Accords.
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Re: Electric cars
« Reply #1074 on: December 16, 2019, 08:30:38 AM »
Agreed, I think that it will be like an "event horizon" between two states - people could freeze for a while, keeping the old car going rather than emotionally dealing with the loss (or unable to get enough to by a new EV). Could be a horrendous few years for car sales until the logjam is broken.

oren

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Re: Electric cars
« Reply #1075 on: December 16, 2019, 09:58:31 AM »
I have sworn to myself our current ICE family car is the last one ever.

nanning

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Re: Electric cars
« Reply #1076 on: December 16, 2019, 10:49:59 AM »
Great to read oren, a good example :).

I have a question: Can't you (and others in a similar situation) sell your ICE car Now and buy an electric one? Is it a money thing or other?
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oren

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Re: Electric cars
« Reply #1077 on: December 16, 2019, 12:07:58 PM »
It is more of an availability thing. There are almost no true electric cars here, and the little there are have like zero range and are total crap. And expensive. More like "luxury" (but bad) than environmental.
This will probably take 2-3 more years. But even if it takes more, I've had it with ICE.
If I could I'd get rid of the car altogether, but we have too many local needs that can't be met with available public transport (which I use as much as I can) and on weekends it is shut down completely.

Sigmetnow

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Re: Electric cars
« Reply #1078 on: December 16, 2019, 02:07:47 PM »
It is more of an availability thing. There are almost no true electric cars here, and the little there are have like zero range and are total crap. And expensive. More like "luxury" (but bad) than environmental.
This will probably take 2-3 more years. But even if it takes more, I've had it with ICE.
If I could I'd get rid of the car altogether, but we have too many local needs that can't be met with available public transport (which I use as much as I can) and on weekends it is shut down completely.

My car is 15 years old, and I, too, am waiting for the right EV that will suit my needs.  It’s not difficult to wonder how much of the recent slump in car sales is due to more people delaying their purchase for the same reason.   (I have a reservation for a Model Y.)
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Re: Electric cars
« Reply #1079 on: December 16, 2019, 05:51:58 PM »
I saw the unbearable grief inflicted on families by cobalt mining. I pray for change

https://www.theguardian.com/global-development/commentisfree/2019/dec/16/i-saw-the-unbearable-grief-inflicted-on-families-by-cobalt-mining-i-pray-for-change
  by Siddharth Kara

  First part of text:
Bisette sits before me, her face drawn with woe. Even though this is my second research trip to the cobalt provinces of the Democratic Republic of the Congo, I am ill-prepared for the torment I will witness. We thank Bisette for her courage, for we know she is fearful that even a rumour that she is speaking to us could result in brutal reprisals against her and her family. She inhales sharply and recounts a tale of unimaginable grief.

Raphael was born to Bisette’s sister, but after both his parents died when he was a baby, Bisette raised Raphael as her own son. She says he was a bright and cheerful child. Raphael loved to learn but, when he was 12 years old, the family could no longer afford the $6 (£4) a month required to send him to school. Instead, Bisette says Raphael did what most children in his village had to do: he went to work as a surface digger at a nearby industrial cobalt mine near Kolwezi.

When Raphael turned 15, he was strong enough to dig tunnels at the site. Bisette says that on 16 April 2018, Raphael was deep underground with a group of 30 diggers when the tunnel above him collapsed. She heard the news and rushed to the site. “I prayed to God: ‘Please, let my son be alive,’” she says. When she arrived at the mine, she says, she was informed that no one had survived.

I try to imagine the moment – when Raphael was crushed in the earth, screaming for his mother, suffocating in darkness, dying alone.



Every lithium-ion rechargeable battery in smartphones, tablets, laptops, and electric vehicles requires cobalt to recharge. Approximately two-thirds of the global cobalt supply is mined in DRC. A considerable portion of this supply is mined by an informal workforce of artisanal miners, called “creuseurs”.

Children and creuseurs are not formally allowed at large, industrial cobalt mines. But Bisette and scores of other families we interviewed said their children had been working at sites operated by foreign mining companies for years.



On Monday, Bisette and 13 other families have launched a landmark legal case in DC Federal Court in the United States against Apple, Microsoft, Dell, Google and Tesla for what they consider to be the companies’ complicity in the injuries and deaths of their children.
"It is preoccupation with possessions, more than anything else, that prevents us from living freely and nobly" - Bertrand Russell
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Sigmetnow

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Re: Electric cars
« Reply #1080 on: December 16, 2019, 06:53:17 PM »
Quote
I saw the unbearable grief inflicted on families by cobalt mining. I pray for change

This would be more appropriately posted in the Oil and Gas thread. 


More cobalt is used in oil refining than anywhere else.
Desulphurisation | Cobalt Institute
Quote
The use of cobalt in desulphurisation reactions represents the highest tonnage of cobalt use in the catalyst sector.
https://www.cobaltinstitute.org/desulphurisation.html
People who say it cannot be done should not interrupt those who are doing it.

KiwiGriff

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Re: Electric cars
« Reply #1081 on: December 16, 2019, 07:15:17 PM »
Tesla releases ‘Conflict Minerals Report’, increases minerals tracking and reduces cobalt use
May. 30th 2018

Quote
We have visited many cobalt mines and processing plants that support Tesla’s main supply chain, as well as potential future suppliers throughout the world. We discuss with these suppliers the major risks they face and the practices they have implemented to mitigate these risks, including chain of custody controls and iterative checks performed from mining until customer delivery to combat illegal or artisanal ore use; on-site security and access control; hiring practices and management engagement to protect against child labor onsite; internal and third party audit practices; and engagement with local communities to maintain a positive social license to operate.

Quote
Tesla is committed to only sourcing responsibly produced materials. In addition to the Tesla Supplier Code of Conduct, Tesla has a Human Rights and Conflict Minerals policy that outlines our expectations to all suppliers and partners that work with us. We strictly follow all U.S. and foreign law, and require our supply chain to do the same. All of our contracts require suppliers to adhere to our human rights policy and environmental and safety requirements. Tesla is committed to making working conditions in Tesla’s supply chain safe and humane, ensuring that workers are treated with respect and dignity, and that manufacturing processes are environmentally responsible. Tesla suppliers are required to provide evidence of the existence of policies that address these social, environmental, and sustainability issues as well as responsible sourcing.
https://electrek.co/2018/05/30/tesla-conflict-minerals-report-battery-cobalt/

nanning

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Re: Electric cars
« Reply #1082 on: December 16, 2019, 07:46:41 PM »
Apple and Google named in US lawsuit over Congolese child cobalt mining deaths
Dell, Microsoft and Tesla also among tech firms named in case brought by families of children killed or injured while mining in DRC

https://www.theguardian.com/global-development/2019/dec/16/apple-and-google-named-in-us-lawsuit-over-congolese-child-cobalt-mining-deaths
  by Annie Kelly


I think it is not proper to post P.R. reports from the producers. Please post independent reports if possible. Thank you.

Batteries are a required part of electric cars, so I think my posts are on topic, albeit very uncomfortable for people with consumerist dreams and wants.


Cobalt is essential to power the rechargeable lithium batteries used in millions of products sold by Apple, Google, Dell, Microsoft and Tesla every year. The insatiable demand for cobalt, driven by desire for cheap handheld technology, has tripled in the past five years and is expected to double again by the end of 2020. More than 60% of cobalt originates in DRC, one of the poorest and most unstable countries in the world.
How far can consumerists close their eyes?
"It is preoccupation with possessions, more than anything else, that prevents us from living freely and nobly" - Bertrand Russell
   Simple: minimize your possessions and be free and kind    It's just a mindset.       Refugees welcome

Tor Bejnar

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Re: Electric cars
« Reply #1083 on: December 16, 2019, 08:11:35 PM »
Newer Tesla batteries contain Cuban cobalt, likely illegal under US sanctions
Quote
Tesla, for its part, says it's moving away from cobalt anyway.

Cyrus Farivar - 7/20/2018, 6:00 AM - arstechnica.com
[note the publication date]
Maybe Tesla used DRC cobalt in 2017.
Arctic ice is healthy for children and other living things.

NeilT

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Re: Electric cars
« Reply #1084 on: December 16, 2019, 08:35:32 PM »
in case brought by families of children killed or injured while mining in DRC

Just to address the elephant in the room.  What were those families doing with a child working to mine Cobalt?

I know the reason, but it is totally bizarre that families which should have been working to secure their children and their future, are suing US companies because their children were working on mining Cobalt.....

Sometimes you actually have to ask the obvious question.
Being right too soon is socially unacceptable.

Robert A. Heinlein

KiwiGriff

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Re: Electric cars
« Reply #1085 on: December 16, 2019, 09:13:37 PM »
It will be a multinational agency responsible for the suit .
Not likely to win its a PR stunt more than anything.
The targets are high profile to get more column inches.
One not naming the oil company's  who use much of the worlds cobalt to refine low lead petrol.
The cobalt used in electric car battery's will hopefully become part of a circular economy and get recycled and reused that used in refinery's is lost forever in the process.

Cuba is another question entirely .
The ongoing USA sanctions on Cuba are debatable a human rights abuse.

We are not that removed from such abuse of children in the west.
Griff is a welsh name.... guess what my grandfather was doing aged 12?

Sigmetnow

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Re: Electric cars
« Reply #1086 on: December 16, 2019, 09:20:21 PM »
“Cobalt is usually not mined alone and tends to be produced as a by-product of nickel and copper mining activities.”
http://www.digitaljournal.com/tech-and-science/technology/tesla-cutting-amount-of-cobalt-in-ev-batteries-to-near-zero/article/521774

The DRC has acted to attract new mining investments.  The greatest responsibility for the workers is theirs.
Quote
…most cobalt is obtained by reducing the cobalt by-products of nickel and copper mining and smelting.
Since cobalt is generally produced as a by-product, the supply of cobalt depends to a great extent on the economic feasibility of copper and nickel mining in a given market. Demand for cobalt was projected to grow 6% in 2017.

Changes that Congo made to mining laws in 2002 attracted new investments in Congolese copper and cobalt projects. Glencore's Mutanda mine shipped 24,500 tons of cobalt last year, 40% of Congo DRC's output and nearly a quarter of global production. Glencore's Katanga Mining project is resuming as well and should produce 300,000 tons of copper and 20,000 tons of cobalt by 2019, according to Glencore.

In 2005, the top producer of cobalt was the copper deposits in the Democratic Republic of the Congo's Katanga Province. Formerly Shaba province, the area had almost 40% of global reserves, reported the British Geological Survey in 2009. By 2015, Democratic Republic of the Congo (DRC) supplied 60% of world cobalt production, 32,000 tons at $20,000 to $26,000 per ton. Recent growth in production could at least partly be due to how low mining production fell during DRC Congo's very violent civil wars in the early 2000s, or to the changes the country made to its Mining Code in 2002 to encourage foreign and multinational investment and which did bring in a number of investors, including Glencore.

Artisanal mining supplied 10% to 25% of the DRC production. Some 100,000 cobalt miners in Congo DRC use hand tools to dig hundreds of feet, with little planning and fewer safety measures, say workers and government and NGO officials, as well as Washington Post reporters' observations on visits to isolated mines. The lack of safety precautions frequently causes injuries or death. Mining pollutes the vicinity and exposes local wildlife and indigenous communities to toxic metals thought to cause birth defects and breathing difficulties, according to health officials.

Human rights activists have alleged, and investigative journalism reported confirmation, that child labor is used in mining cobalt from African artisanal mines. This revelation prompted cell phone maker Apple Inc., on March 3, 2017, to stop buying ore from suppliers such as Zhejiang Huayou Cobalt who source from artisanal mines in the DRC, and begin using only suppliers that are verified to meet its workplace standards.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cobalt

Quote
It is important to point out that the demand for cobalt is not purely explained by EVs, the global demand for consumer electronics, such as smartphones, laptops, and other electronic devices that use lithium-ion batteries all play a role.

Since the Roadster and the first-generation Model S, Tesla has managed to reduce the use of cobalt in their EV batteries by an average of 59% over a nine-year period from 2009 to 2018. In the 2018 Q1 update, Tesla claims this has been achieved by significantly reducing the amount of cobalt per battery pack, and replacing the content with nickel, without having to compromise on battery performance.
https://www.fleetcarma.com/oems-reduce-cobalt-use/

“Meanwhile, analysts at BMO Capital Markets said Tesla’s decision ‘does imply lower cobalt demand,’ given the company’s 10-percent share of the electric car market.”
Tesla to Reduce Cobalt Use in EV Batteries to "Almost Nothing"
https://investingnews.com/daily/resource-investing/battery-metals-investing/cobalt-investing/tesla-reduce-cobalt-use-ev-batteries/

“Tesla, for example, has committed to sourcing materials only from North America for its battery production facility and battery supplier LG Chem claims they have stopped using conflict-sourced cobalt.”
- Union of Concerned Scientists
https://www.ucsusa.org/resources/ev-batteries

The Canadian Ghost Town That Tesla Is Bringing Back to Life
https://www.bloomberg.com/news/features/2017-10-31/the-canadian-ghost-town-that-tesla-is-bringing-back-to-life

Quote
Tesla Takes the Lead
Tesla anticipated the cobalt shortage and related ethical issues years ago. Over the past six or so years, Tesla reduced the use of cobalt in its nickel-cobalt-aluminum battery formulation by about 60 percent. In June 2018, Tesla’s Elon Musk said that less than three percent of the Model 3’s batteries is made up of cobalt. He said the company’s next-generation batteries will use no cobalt, but the timeline was vague.

Tesla Model 3 battery pack
Musk is not alone. Henrik Fisker, the famed EV designer, said, “Electric vehicle automakers and battery manufacturers have a responsibility to ensure any materials we use in our batteries are sourced in an ethical way.

A previous report from Amnesty International called out BYD, Mercedes-Benz, General Motors, Nissan, and Volkswagen for using battery suppliers, such as LG Chem, which source cobalt from the DRC. Tesla was spared by Amnesty International because Panasonic, its main battery supplier, sources cobalt from the Philippines rather than the DRC.
https://insideevs.com/news/343537/electric-car-drivers-should-boycott-batteries-produced-by-child-labor/

I think it is more proper to debate with factual articles rather than emotional anecdotes.  Thank you.
People who say it cannot be done should not interrupt those who are doing it.

TerryM

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Re: Electric cars
« Reply #1087 on: December 16, 2019, 10:07:20 PM »
<snipped>

I think it is not proper to post P.R. reports from the producers. Please post independent reports if possible. Thank you.

Batteries are a required part of electric cars, so I think my posts are on topic, albeit very uncomfortable for people with consumerist dreams and wants.


Cobalt is essential to power the rechargeable lithium batteries used in millions of products sold by Apple, Google, Dell, Microsoft and Tesla every year. The insatiable demand for cobalt, driven by desire for cheap handheld technology, has tripled in the past five years and is expected to double again by the end of 2020. More than 60% of cobalt originates in DRC, one of the poorest and most unstable countries in the world.
How far can consumerists close their eyes?
(my bolds)


Tesla buys batteries from Chinese, Japanese & Korean suppliers and boasts of using more cells than any other corporation. The fact that cobalt usage has tripled in 5 years indicates that cobalt's primary usage is in the rapidly expanding EV battery sector, rather than in the relatively level oil refining field.


Lithium usage is also expanding rapidly. While the coup in Bolivia was the first government to be ousted to lower the costs of battery production, it certainly won't be the last.
It's interesting that Tesla's German factory was announced just days after a German firm secured her hold on Bolivian lithium through Evo's departure. Interesting, disgusting, and unsettling.


Posting links from Tesla's Toadies isn't informative and can add to confusion. One Toady bashes LG's reprehensible cobalt sourcing, then the next Tesla Toad announces that Tesla will be using LG's batteries in their Chinese EV's.
https://ww.electrek.co/2019/08/23/tesla-battery-supply-deal-lg-chem-gigafactory-3/


Tesla has been using LG's cells in their stationary batteries for years.
Terry


As an aside, consider the power draw of an EV to that of a tricked out Smart Phone. Ask yourself which products might have "tripled in the last 5 years, and is expected to double again by the end of 2020". It certainly hasn't been cell phone sales, or refineries.

oren

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Re: Electric cars
« Reply #1088 on: December 16, 2019, 10:19:18 PM »
Quote
While the coup in Bolivia was the first government to be ousted to lower the costs of battery production
I believe this claim is baseless.

philopek

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Re: Electric cars
« Reply #1089 on: December 16, 2019, 10:57:48 PM »
Quote
While the coup in Bolivia was the first government to be ousted to lower the costs of battery production
I believe this claim is baseless.

however things are, certainly not baseless because:

said german company has just lost said contract recently, a few weeks ahead of major events and re-gained said contract a few days/weeks after major events.

this could be an coincidence but i do not generally believe in such kind of coincidences.

not claiming to know but certainly having second thoughts is well justified and with absolute certainty not baseless.

the base is "life experience" and knowing history that can be called collective experience ;)

TerryM

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Re: Electric cars
« Reply #1090 on: December 17, 2019, 12:39:03 AM »
Quote
While the coup in Bolivia was the first government to be ousted to lower the costs of battery production
I believe this claim is baseless.


Do you doubt that Bolivia was first? I'd intended to write that it was the first instance that I was aware of.
Perhaps that's the cause of our misunderstanding?
Terry

philopek

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Re: Electric cars
« Reply #1091 on: December 17, 2019, 01:17:45 AM »
Quote
While the coup in Bolivia was the first government to be ousted to lower the costs of battery production
I believe this claim is baseless.

Do you doubt that Bolivia was first? I'd intended to write that it was the first instance that I was aware of.
Perhaps that's the cause of our misunderstanding?
Terry

whether it's first or second or whichever rank in a number of events can of course be discussed/questioned but ultimately it's irrelevant and does not render the point baseless either way

as i said before it's hard to proof without insight, on the other hand i have some insight, even though limited, since one of  my siblings has been an ambassador to a major capital for bolivia under EM till not too long ago, but that doesn't make much of a difference in this context, it just means to know who to ask for some more insight than what the media would give us.

TerryM

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Re: Electric cars
« Reply #1092 on: December 17, 2019, 04:05:31 AM »
^^
I had no idea that anyone here had Bolivian connections.


Any thoughts you can share re. Evo's past & future prospects?


I was blindsided when the military flipped, I'd imagined his enemies to be right wingers of European heritage.
Terry

oren

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Re: Electric cars
« Reply #1093 on: December 17, 2019, 04:13:40 AM »
Quote
While the coup in Bolivia was the first government to be ousted to lower the costs of battery production
I believe this claim is baseless.


Do you doubt that Bolivia was first? I'd intended to write that it was the first instance that I was aware of.
Perhaps that's the cause of our misunderstanding?
Terry
Hmmm... No.
I do not have much knowledge of the Bolivian political crisis that led to the oust of Morales. But to claim that masses of people in some country went to the streets at risk of their death as part of some conspiracy to get some German or other company a Lithium contract is an extraordinary claim requiring some extraordinary proof. Or any sort of proof.
Looking at Wikipedia, out of 8000 words on the subject the word Lithium appears 0 times.
Reading about the crises, there does not seem to be any connection whatsoever. And why should there be? It makes zero sense.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2019_Bolivian_political_crisis

If I were one the Bolivian protesters, I would be highly offended by this claim.

sidd

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Re: Electric cars
« Reply #1094 on: December 17, 2019, 07:27:09 AM »
Intercept has an interview with morales by greenwald up.

https://theintercept.com/2019/12/16/evo-morales-interview-glenn-greenwald/

sidd

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Re: Electric cars
« Reply #1095 on: December 17, 2019, 12:13:28 PM »
oren
I'm rather taken aback.
Are you a follower of Bellingcat, the Atlantic Alliance, or some other American disinformation source?


If so I've little inclination to debate you.


If you're simply unaware of the coup and the many reasons behind it I'd be glad to help out where and when I can, but I'd ask you to first read sidd's excellent link. We can each probably learn much from philopec as he has personal knowledge of the goings on in Bolivia. The closest I ever came to Bolivia was Havana, where Evo was held in high esteem.


Were you empathizing with the Bolivian peons protesting Evo's ouster, or the Euro/Christian mobs wanting to return the European Gentry to their traditional positions of power in La Paz? Did Evo's closure of the Bolivian embassy in Israel cloud your judgment? or do you approved of his very public solidarity with the Palestinian cause?
Terry

NeilT

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Re: Electric cars
« Reply #1096 on: December 17, 2019, 02:36:49 PM »
Before ripping into someone for not sharing your view and idolising someone who has just been deposed, talking on video, about their own unique view of the world. It might be worth reading something  written before he was deposed, but which addressed the reasons why it might happen.

https://www.americasquarterly.org/content/thanks-goodbye-why-evo-morales-former-supporters-want-him-gone
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oren

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Re: Electric cars
« Reply #1097 on: December 17, 2019, 03:04:43 PM »
Are you a follower of Bellingcat, the Atlantic Alliance, or some other American disinformation source? No
If you're simply unaware of the coup and the many reasons behind it Indeed I am
but I'd ask you to first read sidd's excellent link It's a 1-hour video with no transcript, or else I would have read it, despite my aversion to interviews with politicians, who are not generally known for their honesty and objectiveness about themselves.
Were you empathizing with the Bolivian peons protesting Evo's ouster, or the Euro/Christian mobs wanting to return the European Gentry to their traditional positions of power in La Paz? I have no clue who is against who in Bolivia, except what I've read today on Wikipedia
Did Evo's closure of the Bolivian embassy in Israel cloud your judgment? Never heard of it
do you approved of his very public solidarity with the Palestinian cause?  Lacking details, I guess I approve
My replies bolded above.
All I've read so far on this forum is a claim that the coup was to facilitate Lithium mining, with no backing. This claim is quite extraordinary and requires serious backing, IMHO.

nanning

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Re: Electric cars
« Reply #1098 on: December 17, 2019, 05:03:48 PM »
Thank you for that information, sane reasoning and view Terry. A couple of hours ago I had a discussion about Evo with older locals. Programmed by censored MSM. Same I guess as what they've done to Assange, god help him. I was unable to make these goodwilling people see the modern colonial censorship and violent (also financial) supressing of everything other than capitalism and all things trying to move ouside of their control and dogma.

Perhaps it's just a matter of being inside one of those bubbles where you draw the wrong conclusions because you don't see the whole picture.
"It is preoccupation with possessions, more than anything else, that prevents us from living freely and nobly" - Bertrand Russell
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Sigmetnow

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Re: Electric cars
« Reply #1099 on: December 17, 2019, 05:38:21 PM »
Big surprise.  Not!
But, competing in the auto market “by merit alone” will harm GM and others much more than it will harm Tesla.

Tesla and GM’s dreams for an EV tax credit extension have been dashed
Quote
Tesla’s efforts to convince the US Congress to extend the tax credit for electric vehicles went down the drain as lawmakers declined to extend the country’s EV incentives.
...
According to lawmakers who support the popular expansion of tax credit for electric vehicles, President Donald Trump is to blame.

“There has been extreme resistance from the president. I don’t know why the White House would want to stop jobs and the future of the auto industry,” said Michigan Democrat Senator Debbie Stabenow.

The tax credit for EVs has always been criticized by Republicans who see the subsidies as welfare for the wealthy and only benefits car manufacturers such as Tesla. Likewise, there was the usual counter-lobbying from petrochemical producers and refiners.

Tesla, along with General Motors and other green car manufacturers, has been lobbying for the approval of the Growing Renewable Energy and Efficiency Now (GREEN) Act that will raise the cap of electric vehicle sales qualified for federal tax incentives from 200,000 units to 600,000 units. Both carmakers have hit their sales cap in 2018 and this means that those who will purchase Tesla vehicles starting January 1, 2020 are no longer qualified for tax credits. Without the federal tax credits, electric cars from these companies would have to compete in the auto market by their merits alone. ...
https://www.teslarati.com/tesla-gm-ev-tax-credit-extension-denied/
People who say it cannot be done should not interrupt those who are doing it.