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blumenkraft

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Re: Electric cars
« Reply #1200 on: January 12, 2020, 09:41:40 AM »
Sorry for your loss, Terry.
The apocalypse is already here; it's just not very evenly distributed.

Tom_Mazanec

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Re: Electric cars
« Reply #1201 on: January 12, 2020, 10:41:36 AM »
nanning:
How do you access the Internet?
SHARKS (CROSSED OUT) MONGEESE (SIC) WITH FRICKIN LASER BEAMS ATTACHED TO THEIR HEADS

nanning

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Re: Electric cars
« Reply #1202 on: January 12, 2020, 03:49:09 PM »
Why do you ask Tom?

Please answer via PM. I have been posting too much off-topic here already.
Apologies to all.
"It is preoccupation with possessions, more than anything else, that prevents us from living freely and nobly" - Bertrand Russell
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Sigmetnow

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Re: Electric cars
« Reply #1203 on: January 12, 2020, 05:58:58 PM »
For me it is demotivating when I'm ignored and nobody engages or reacts to my posts.

nanning,
I’ll respect your choices, to be poor and spend hours a day drinking, smoking and thinking… if you respect others’ choices to switch to cleaner, sustainable technology which indirectly benefits others — including you!  And, for those making cheaper internet available to those who today have none.
People who say it cannot be done should not interrupt those who are doing it.

Sigmetnow

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Re: Electric cars
« Reply #1204 on: January 12, 2020, 08:07:16 PM »
Norway Puts Its Foot Down On Lexus' Misleading 'Self-Charging' Hybrid Ads: 'This is a Pure Lie'
Quote
Norway’s Consumer Authority has put its foot down on Toyota’s ads for the Lexus NX, deeming the campaign for the "self-charging hybrid" crossover as misleading. Many people complained about Toyota’s ads in Norway for its hybrid compact vehicle, with some stating that the company's pitch was a "pure lie."
https://www.tesmanian.com/blogs/tesmanian-blog/norway-toyotas-self-charging-hybrid-campaign-lexus-nx

—-
@LexusUK is still promoting that angle, however:
Quote
EV News Daily ⚡️ (@EVNewsDaily) 1/11/20, 7:06 PM
The latest rancid piece of shameful marketing just to flog the last few cars before people realise how great EVs are.
New tactic: Fill the entire screen with a massive battery and pretend they’re REALLY electric. No shot of an engine funnily enough.
How do they sleep at night?
https://twitter.com/evnewsdaily/status/1216149300411031553
Images below.

Some of the comments are hilarious. Seems to me like a massive PR fail but management remains so blinkered to public opinion they can’t see it. The poor social media team just have keep replying “but it charges when you slow down”.
Twitpics of comments at the link: https://twitter.com/evnewsdaily/status/1216150917713625089

< Doesn't Lexus have their own BEV (or to put it another way, a *proper* car fit for 2020) due soon?! Some serious back peddling is going to have to happen!
EV News Daily: That’s what we’re confused about. They are bringing plug-ins to market so, of all the ways to promote their clever hybrid stuff, why pursue an aggressive campaign against plugs? I can only imagine it’s short termism in the extreme.

https://twitter.com/evnewsdaily/status/1216276045797740544
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rboyd

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Re: Electric cars
« Reply #1205 on: January 12, 2020, 09:17:43 PM »
Decline in China EV sales seems to be slowing - Bloomberg

Wholesale sales of China EV's were 137,000 in December, only 15% down y-o-y which is a lot better than the previous few months. So the Chinese market may have stabilized after the June subsidy cuts, if so a very fast stabilization.

Interesting how much "non-subsidy" support is being given to the Chinese EV industry. This also means that EVs are being targeted at the highest mileage users, getting a much bigger reduction in oil imports than would be with the average driver. Same for the rapid replacement if the bus fleet with electric buses (and of course all the public electric trains, trams and subways). Makes sense from an energy security point of view - shift transport mileage to predominantly indigenously/Russian produced fuel for electricity (coal, gas, renewables) and away from imported oil.

Quote
A majority of China’s EV purchases -- about 70%, according to Sanford C. Bernstein -- so far have been by the government and “policy-direct” customers, including taxis, mobility services and other state-affiliated fleet operators. Some local governments, including Shenzhen, require newly registered ride-hailing cars to be electric.

https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2020-01-09/china-december-car-sales-fall-3-6-capping-second-annual-drop

Sigmetnow

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Re: Electric cars
« Reply #1206 on: January 13, 2020, 04:37:14 PM »
...
Interesting how much "non-subsidy" support is being given to the Chinese EV industry. This also means that EVs are being targeted at the highest mileage users, getting a much bigger reduction in oil imports than would be with the average driver. ...

New Jersey seems to be taking the same approach, tying subsidy amount directly to range (up to 200 miles).  As the price of EVs declines to match their ICE-car equivalent, the cleaner choice will be simpler to make, and it is high-mileage drivers who are reducing fossil fuel use the most, which is the ultimate goal.

https://forum.arctic-sea-ice.net/index.php/topic,2686.msg243739.html#msg243739
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Sigmetnow

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Re: Electric cars
« Reply #1207 on: January 13, 2020, 07:30:11 PM »
Nice design!!!
Quote
PlugShare (@plugshare) 1/13/20, 12:26 PM
New stations in the UK from @InstaVoltUK; a retro meets modern design. Impressive looking! #evcharging #publiccharging #EVs
https://twitter.com/plugshare/status/1216773467728539648

Glyn Hudson (@glynhudson) 1/11/20, 6:45 PM
These new @InstaVoltUK units are very impressive, first time I've used this new hardware. Worked great very fast. I've added this new location to @plugshare
https://twitter.com/glynhudson/status/1216144091022602240

Matthew Nichols (@noo78) 1/12/20, 3:31 AM
They are nice to use, it's the little details like allowing the cable arm to swing out to nearly 90 degrees if you need more reach, someone has thought about this.
https://twitter.com/noo78/status/1216276576809160704
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gerontocrat

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Re: Electric cars
« Reply #1208 on: January 13, 2020, 08:27:03 PM »
Instavolt charge rate £0.35 per KwH (US 45 cents)

If you can charge at home at night on Economy 7 rate - about £0.09 per KwH. Normal rate £ 0.16.

Better get your home electrics sorted.
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nanning

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Re: Electric cars
« Reply #1209 on: January 13, 2020, 08:30:45 PM »
Wow what a nice colours Sig. Looks like a docking port for a private spaceship.
Maybe I'm seeing things because of all my smoking and drinking.
"It is preoccupation with possessions, more than anything else, that prevents us from living freely and nobly" - Bertrand Russell
   Simple: minimize your possessions and be free and kind    It's just a mindset.       Refugees welcome

NeilT

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Re: Electric cars
« Reply #1210 on: January 13, 2020, 09:53:01 PM »
Instavolt charge rate £0.35 per KwH (US 45 cents)

If you can charge at home at night on Economy 7 rate - about £0.09 per KwH. Normal rate £ 0.16.

Better get your home electrics sorted.

16p equates, roughly, to 120mpge.  35p is less than 60mpge.  Or as much as I'm paying for my C3 which averages just below 60mpg (imperial).

Hardly going to pay down the £20k extra you are going to pay for your EV really.  At these prices it is nothing more than opportunist wealth making and that does not help the transition to CO2 free travel.
Being right too soon is socially unacceptable.

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oren

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Re: Electric cars
« Reply #1211 on: January 13, 2020, 10:00:47 PM »
Most charging should be at home/office/streetside at low rates. If your charging is gonna be solely in fast charger stations at such high rates, better skip buying an EV for now.

Iain

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Re: Electric cars
« Reply #1212 on: January 13, 2020, 11:06:39 PM »
"Most charging should be at home/office/streetside at low rates. If your charging is gonna be solely in fast charger stations at such high rates, better skip buying an EV for now"

Or workplace solar roof to carpark, cheap electricity and no grid or DNO charges, nor profit to supplier.
"If I have seen further than others, it is by standing upon the shoulders of giants." Isaac Newton

Iain

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Re: Electric cars
« Reply #1213 on: January 13, 2020, 11:11:17 PM »
Apologies to Neil and Nanning, this is a cross post, but I think EVs have an important role in the transition to renewables not already discussed:

Free Energy Storage (UK case)

Replacing cars with batteries and Lorries with hydrogen (or forklifting in a charged battery bank)would require c. 3x present electricity production

25 Million (one per household) Nissan Leafs at 56 kWh, that’s 14 x10^12

Each does 1/10th max range per daily commute.

14 Terawatt Hours stored, Average daily UK production in 2018 was 0.91 TWh

So that’s 1/3 Gimmie it NOW demand as is the present case; 1/3 anytime this week is fine demand and 1/3 sometime between the two, as the trucks keep rolling 24/7

That makes managing intermittency so much easier, up renewables x6 (c. 50% electricity is renewable at present) the cars / hydrogen electrolysers absorb any additional over and above the GimmieitNOW demand, so the grid side storage only has to cover the rare periods of shortfall on the GimmieitNOW demand side.

NB this is not car to grid, just cars absorb the surplus for now.

The grid can’t take all this from big centralised stations, so a more dispersed arrangement would suit better. Local – Factory / Office roof solar to static cars in carpark over 8 hrs of daylight. Solar runs aircon and cars in the summer, just the cars in the winter. The Wind turbine in the carpark (industrial areas) produces more in winter than summer.


Encouragements:

Tax office / factory roofs (E, W, S) which have no solar, tax business electricity, tax office parking spaces which have no charging point, tax ICE cars and trucks
Give tax breaks on their opposite numbers.

Nuclear is limited to summer valley baseload, the high capital cost and low running cost means it must run 24/7/365, so it would be v. expensive to try to cover winter peak with stations which would be idle in Spring, Summer and Autumn. It also does not suit storage, if the stations were sufficient for Spring / Autumn, the summer surplus would have to be stored for 3 months of Winter. That’s one battery cycle per year – prohibitively high capital cost.

Tidal turbines anyone? – peak every 12h, peak occurs at different times N to S on the coast. Cables run up rivers and estuaries to the local substations.

No need to go back to the stone / iron / pre-industrial age
"If I have seen further than others, it is by standing upon the shoulders of giants." Isaac Newton

Iain

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Re: Electric cars
« Reply #1214 on: January 13, 2020, 11:26:59 PM »
Battery life

I searched the forum on "degradation", but got no hits

Has anyone come across real world data on battery degradation?
I remember seeing a google group where owners on Outlanders were posting the retention figure vs age and mileage. Can't find it again.

Main factors are number of cycles and depth of discharge, so large battery capacity EVs on daily 10% depth of discharge will last for 10,000 cycles +

Smaller batteries, e.g. the Mitsu Outlander may have to be discharged to c. 50% (or the max discharge allowed by Mitsu) then recharged 2x per day.

Really keen to see how they are holding up after 5+ years
"If I have seen further than others, it is by standing upon the shoulders of giants." Isaac Newton

KiwiGriff

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Re: Electric cars
« Reply #1215 on: January 13, 2020, 11:44:13 PM »
Tesla x/s

https://electrek.co/2018/04/14/tesla-battery-degradation-data/

Nissan leafs however are not lasting at all well due to poor battery management and lack of active cooling .

https://flipthefleet.org/2018/30-kwh-leafs-soh-loss/

Hybrids may differ.
Plenty of very high mileage prius/camry taxis here in NZ and  around the world without issues.

Sigmetnow

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Re: Electric cars
« Reply #1216 on: January 13, 2020, 11:57:50 PM »
Here’s a couple links.  Search the forum for “Tesloop” for others.

On the other hand, here is a study of battery degradation of 500 Tesla vehicles...
looks like 7 years 150,000 miles = 90% battery capacity on average.
https://www.thisismoney.co.uk/money/cars/article-7764529/US-study-claims-Tesla-batteries-lose-just-1-performance-year.html
Study claims Teslas lose just 1% performance every year caused by repeat charges
- It says Tesla batteries show slow levels of deterioration for first 150,000 miles
- After 7 years, the average Tesla car battery loses 7% capacity, researcher found

—-
Tales from a Tesla Model S that hit 400,000 miles in 3 years
https://www.teslarati.com/tesloop-tesla-model-s-400k-miles-battery-maintenance-cost/

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NeilT

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Re: Electric cars
« Reply #1217 on: January 14, 2020, 12:52:02 AM »
Yes Sig but you know that these stats have been full charge to low power.  I ve mentioned this a lot over time but low charge with less than 50% recharge, to low charge will knacker a battery faster.

I did note that the Model3 warranty at 100k miles and 30% degradation was about the very worst case scenario.

But, yes, Tesla has the best management systems on the planet and we can see how others (especially the leafs), fare in harsh environments.

The other point is the smallest Tesla batteries are often more than twice the size of standard range for older models for which we have a lot of data. Hence less cycles so harder to compare.

Tesla represents exemplary usage and life in the best circumstances.   That chart also seems to weed out the failures in 2-3 years.
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Iain

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Re: Electric cars
« Reply #1218 on: January 14, 2020, 10:40:58 AM »
Griff, Thanks for the graphs

Neil makes an important point

"the smallest Tesla batteries are often more than twice the size of standard range for older models"

So will cycle fewer times per 100 miles

Looks like the trend is toward bigger batteries anyway, myself I was thinking of a used Outlander Plug in hybrid, but with the smaller battery it may be cycled to death by the previous owner

I have asked and got the battery management data from a couple of dealers, so it is possible to find out how many cycles it has had.

"If I have seen further than others, it is by standing upon the shoulders of giants." Isaac Newton

TerryM

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Re: Electric cars
« Reply #1219 on: January 14, 2020, 10:55:07 AM »
Thanks nanning, BK. Your warm thoughts are comforting.


Israel has opened her doors to Tesla vehicles - but not to Tesla's self driving options. It's not "Keep your hands on the wheel", it's "Don't turn on that illegal software"


Check our science thread for new technology that will change the face of electronics. All bets are off if the new synthetic clathrates with high temperature superconductivity prove themselves.
It's akin to jumping from steam engines to SSTs, and makes all that went before obsolete.


If it's real it's by far the biggest scientific advance in my lifetime, and my milkman's cart was drawn by a horse.


The Black Swan may have Landed.
https://carnegiescience.edu/news/superdiamond-carbon-boron-cages-can-trap-and-tap-different-properties


Thanks to morganism in the Permafrost-Toward improved discussions of Methane & Climate
Terry

blumenkraft

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Re: Electric cars
« Reply #1220 on: January 14, 2020, 07:08:41 PM »
We drove these electric cars until they DIED!

Mercedes EQC : 194 miles = 312km
Audi e-tron : 206 miles = 331km
Nissan Leaf : 208 miles = 334km
Jaguar I-Pace : 223 miles = 358km
Kia e-Niro : 255 miles = 410km
Tesla Model 3 : 270 miles = 434km

The apocalypse is already here; it's just not very evenly distributed.

NeilT

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Re: Electric cars
« Reply #1221 on: January 14, 2020, 09:45:48 PM »
I watched the whole thing.

It was quite interesting.  All the massive batteries were in the heavyweights, Mercedes, Audi or Jaguar.  The Nissan performed relatively well for it's battery size but nothing like as well as the Kia.

The Kia did extremely well. But if you were listening to the stats, the Nissan and the Kia had the least performance, by a long way.

Then you have the Tesla model 3.  Slightly larger battery than the Kia, the most performance of the lot and the longest range, although I'm sure the Kia delivered more miles per kw/h.

The message was pretty clear though.  The bigger beasts had batteries closer to Model S batteries, performance less than the Model 3 and range less than the Tesla, Kia or (in two cases), the Nissan Leaf.

It will be extremely interesting to see what Tesla can do when they finally produce a vehicle that doesn't have 400hp, equivalent, of grunt and is engineered from the ground up to drive as far as possible with the least w/h per mile.  Right now all Tesla models are a compromise in one way or another.
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KiwiGriff

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Re: Electric cars
« Reply #1222 on: January 14, 2020, 10:05:30 PM »
One issue with that run is the actual battery level for each car on it set off was not disclosed.
Something like a Tesla with its always on web interaction may have been at a disadvantage to a car without the technology .


 The no longer available Model 3 LR RWD was rated at 325 miles EPA.
Since it was discontinued the range of the LR AWD has been increased so we do not know what the range of a LR RWD produced now would be .
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tesla_Model_3
It would not surprise if they re introduce the LR RWD  when capacity becomes more than demand.

blumenkraft

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Re: Electric cars
« Reply #1223 on: January 15, 2020, 08:14:38 AM »
I found the most remarkable thing with this video that none of the carmakers does actually achieve their proclaimed reach. You get ~3/4 of what they tell you. Only Nissan and Kia are somewhat there.

Mercedes EQC : 75%
Audi e-tron : 81%
Nissan Leaf : 87%
Jaguar I-Pace : 76%
Kia e-Niro : 90%
Tesla Model 3 : 78%

Why the fuck are those fucking companies still allowed to lie to us? This should be a huge scandal actually.
The apocalypse is already here; it's just not very evenly distributed.

KiwiGriff

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Re: Electric cars
« Reply #1224 on: January 15, 2020, 09:42:08 AM »
It is the governments mandated tests that lie not the car company's.
https://wltpfacts.eu/what-is-wltp-how-will-it-work/
Under conditions defined by EU law, the Worldwide Harmonised Light Vehicle Test Procedure (WLTP) laboratory test is used to measure fuel consumption and CO2 emissions from passenger cars, as well as their pollutant emissions.

The USA's EPA is closer to real world range .

YMMV.

blumenkraft

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Re: Electric cars
« Reply #1225 on: January 15, 2020, 10:27:43 AM »
That would imply they are not allowed to not lie to the customers. But they are, Griff.
The apocalypse is already here; it's just not very evenly distributed.

KiwiGriff

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Re: Electric cars
« Reply #1226 on: January 15, 2020, 10:59:19 AM »
It is called marketing .
yes it is all just lies to sell product.
A classic example of  industry capture of the government legislation process by lobbying efforts.

The old NEDC test was far worse they could remove air con, water pumps,  alternators, wing mirrors  even door handles and actually tape up panel gaps  to improve economy.

blumenkraft

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Re: Electric cars
« Reply #1227 on: January 15, 2020, 11:11:05 AM »
It is called marketing .

Exactly! Marketing is institutionalized lying.

And i find it to be despicable.
The apocalypse is already here; it's just not very evenly distributed.

nanning

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Re: Electric cars
« Reply #1228 on: January 15, 2020, 11:13:46 AM »
Not just institutionalised, also all pervasive commercial advertisements lying and 'public relations' lying.
I agree, despicable and some more superlatives.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lie
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NeilT

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Re: Electric cars
« Reply #1229 on: January 15, 2020, 12:38:47 PM »
Tesla WPA mileage is 322. That would give 85% of "Average" range.

This test was carried out in winter, 7C a long segment of the journey in the dark with lights on.

Also it was not a valid test in many ways.  If you go on a long journey, today, the first thing you do is fill up, fully.   Also, importantly, the start state was critical.  The Tesla has far more advanced battery management.  Which means the start of the journey will consume more power.  Power you will not use if you have just disconnected from a charger.

But the elephant in the room is that for a 5 minute fill, my C3 can go from central London to Edinburgh and half way back before it needs to refuel.

The last time I had to worry about that kind of range was 30 years ago.

Still, for 95% of the requirements the Tesla and Kia are truly viable vehicles.
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BeeKnees

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Re: Electric cars
« Reply #1230 on: January 15, 2020, 01:57:19 PM »
But the elephant in the room is that for a 5 minute fill, my C3 can go from central London to Edinburgh and half way back before it needs to refuel.

It's not an elephant in the room if you couldn't do the journey without stopping.

I do regular trips from the south to Durham.
I normally stop for 20-30 min each way for a coffee.  In that time the car will charge sufficent to complete the journey.
My current Prius needs a top-up to make the full journey, it's an extra 5-10 min to fill up.

So the elephant is that you can fill the car up whilst it's parked in your drive, you should take a break after 2-3 hours driving and the car charges while it's parked without the need for a separate visit to a petrol station.

So much of this appears to be mental rather than a physical problem.

Tor Bejnar

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Re: Electric cars
« Reply #1231 on: January 15, 2020, 03:33:24 PM »
Another aspect of the 'test' that will subtract from the EPA, manufacturer, etc., range numbers is that these vehicles stopped every ~40 miles (~65 km) to change drivers.
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Sigmetnow

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Re: Electric cars
« Reply #1232 on: January 15, 2020, 04:07:52 PM »
Another important lesson from the video is how the cars handle the “battery empty” event.  Some stop with essentially no warning.  Others give dire electronic-crash warnings shortly before dying.  But the Tesla (as has been noted here many times) drives for miles past “zero,” eventually reducing performance, advising you just how dire a situation you are in, then at last quietly shutting down before anything is damaged.
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NeilT

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Re: Electric cars
« Reply #1233 on: January 15, 2020, 07:18:11 PM »
Even more, the Tesla knew where the superchargers were even without the phone connected and knew that the car could make it to the nearest and warned the driver to go there.  It was the driver that didn't trust the car...

They also ran the car down because they didn't know how to manage the Bluetooth connection...

You would think, on this kind of test, that they would RTFM.

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NeilT

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Re: Electric cars
« Reply #1234 on: January 15, 2020, 07:33:38 PM »
So much of this appears to be mental rather than a physical problem.

Right down to assuming that our use case is the same for everyone.

My parents come from London and Fife, I was born in Lincoln.  I am very used to driving the 5.5 - 6 hour journey from Lincoln to Fife in one go.  Worst case 5 minute stop for the toilet.

Charge on what drive? My location in Lincolnshire is a new build with just off street parking bays and no public power whatsoever.

Check out Zap Map, the vast majority of chargers are 7kw.  Or 15-20 miles added per hour of charge.  You can forget going for a coffee and getting 100 miles of charge with them.

My work has parking for nearly 5,000 cars.  It has 20 7kw chargers.

Tesco has just announced it is putting in around 600 chargers over the UK.  4 per store with hundreds of parking spaces. All 7kw.

So your 1 hour shopping trip nets you, at best, 20 miles. If you can get in before the other 200 to 1,000 people.

This demonstration was useful in showing real world ability of the cars.  But for real, real world, try going to Oslo.  Where EV penetration is over 50%.  The most difficult thing to get in Oslo today?  An EV charging slot.

Let us be pragmatic here.  It is a good start, Tesla are streets ahead, but we are in the noddy league for actually transitioning to EV.

If we are really serious about EV, every second parking space, paid or free, needs a 100kw, minimum, charger.

Unless we recognise that we are only kidding ourselves and that is most certainly not going to save the liveable biosphere.
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oren

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Re: Electric cars
« Reply #1235 on: January 15, 2020, 09:32:02 PM »
Quote
If we are really serious about EV, every second parking space, paid or free, needs a 100kw, minimum, charger. 
I expect the number of chargers to adapt itself to the number of EVs, perhaps with some delay.
Does your workplace have more than 20 EVs at the moment?
As for the 100kw minimum, I strongly disagree. A 22kw (maybe even 11kw) charger should be more than enough for >95% of cases, and the rest can use a charging station to top up.
BTW in some cars I think 7kwh could get you 25 miles, maybe even 30.

BeeKnees

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Re: Electric cars
« Reply #1236 on: January 15, 2020, 11:03:02 PM »
There are plenty of Tesla superchargers and other rapid chargers enroute so the zap map thing is a red herring. As they are expected to get an upgrades in the near future then I see the current Model 3 as an ample replacement for any FF vehicle. 

I was in Oslo 9 months ago and didn't see an issue charging unless you were in busy built up areas.  The network of chargers next to roadside cafés outside of the city is very impressive and my drive to lillehammer for skiing wouldve been a breeze if it wasn't for the roadworks.

One thing the demonstration showed was how many chargers were available and how few cars were using them.

We have a similar situation at work with chargers,  if it's anything like mine then 75% are free at any given time.  As demand rises then so will the number of charge points.
I don't agree on the 100kw charge point necessity and far prefer the induction trial that is taking place that would lead to cars charging in every space, all be it at a slower rate.

The one big driver will be fleet and the price coming down, which will accelerate take up.

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Re: Electric cars
« Reply #1237 on: January 16, 2020, 11:28:00 AM »
You can't charge at a slower rate when you only have 10-20 minutes.

As for plenty of superchargers?  For the number of cars on the road today, yes.  For even a 1m increase, no.

How many petrol stations do you drive past which are basically empty most of the time.  But when they are busy, they are very busy.  Yet you can fill up for a week in 5 minutes.  EV charging will be totally different.

Also, just like Norway, at least 75% of the chargers will be empty most of the time.  But the point with infrastructure is that when you need it you cannot just snap your fingers and it is there.

Induction charging in every space is possible but have you tried to calculate just how much copper that will take, the weight of it and the energy lost carrying the weight around?

Lest we forget, coper is a scarce source which is mined in 4 large mines around the world. Aluminium is a possibility but the life is significantly shorter. Also every parking space is a significant multiplier of all vehicles.

Let us be clear here.  I am not saying don't do it because there is not enough infrastructure.  I am saying GET THE BLOODY INFRASTRUCTURE OUT THERE AND STOP MESSING ABOUT.

Only then will we have the choices we need to make a sensible decision.  Only then will government's be able to use punitive taxes as a vehicle to get us out of our FF vehicles.
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oren

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Re: Electric cars
« Reply #1238 on: January 16, 2020, 11:50:15 AM »
The chargers and EBs is a chicken and egg problem, more EVs will lead to faster buildout, more chargers will lead to faster EV adoption. This is why what Tesla did building its supercharger network was so good. It basically installed a very large chicken with investor funds, and then it started getting the eggs out.
IMHO EV adoption is now with enough momentum that the problem is essentially solved - stakeholders of all sorts already realize the revolution is coming and are making plans to install chargers in many places. Remembering that a lot of charging is done at home and in the workplace, I do not expect charging infrastructure shortage to hit in a major way. Of course it would be better if the government started pushing more strongly in that direction, but I don't think it's a precondition anymore. What I do hope is that governments captive by fossil fuel interests don't put hurdles in the path to EV adoption. We have already seen some signs for this in the US.

BeeKnees

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Re: Electric cars
« Reply #1239 on: January 16, 2020, 12:01:17 PM »
You can't charge at a slower rate when you only have 10-20 minutes.
Why do you only have 10-20 minutes?

EV charging will be totally different, for the vast majority of people they will never need to visit a petrol station\chargepoint so the argument isnt the same.

Charge at work for a few hours while you are working, charge at home overnight if you have the facility either at home on on street charging.  This pretty much covers the vast majority of car users. The more EVs appear then the more of these work/street services will grow to meet demand.  As Oren says, fast chargers will be for those travelling long distances or more money than sense, standard chargers will meet the bulk of demand quite readily.  Being able to charge whilst the car is not at a petrol station simply has no equivalence in today's Fossil fuel world.   

I'm sorry NeilT but your argument that EV is impracticable until the infrastructure is built in excess of tomorrows demand just doesn't wash.  The infrastructure is sufficient for todays demand and I see no reason why that will not continue to grow in step.

pikaia

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Re: Electric cars
« Reply #1240 on: January 16, 2020, 02:43:28 PM »
The infrastructure is sufficient for todays demand ...
I disagree. I live in a large city (Liverpool) but the nearest charging points are several miles away, and I would have to go out of my way to use them.

SteveMDFP

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Re: Electric cars
« Reply #1241 on: January 16, 2020, 03:48:24 PM »
. . .
Also, just like Norway, at least 75% of the chargers will be empty most of the time.  But the point with infrastructure is that when you need it you cannot just snap your fingers and it is there.


This is overblown.  Civilization already has electrical grids.  A charging station is just another (high-consumption) electrical device.  Even if grid feeds to stations need to be upgraded, that work is trivial in comparison to what it takes to build a petrol station.  They all have very large storage tanks underground, certified not to leak at all, and consumer-safe pumping equipment is not trivial, either.  As charging stations will be a profit center for providers, there will be no shortage of capital to install them, in whatever number is needed.

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Re: Electric cars
« Reply #1242 on: January 16, 2020, 05:03:28 PM »
I build "infrastructure" all the time.  Granted the physical is not so large.  But we have high density multi core connections in our businesses.

This is not that expensive to roll out and maintain.

The tens of thousands of local access points, the distribution hubs and the millions of miles of short run cables to them....  They are a problem and a cost.  We don't even have to dig them into the ground and if we have too many things just go a bit slower, they don't brown out and switch off.

But, please, feel free to be as optimistic as possible.
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BeeKnees

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Re: Electric cars
« Reply #1243 on: January 16, 2020, 06:33:50 PM »
I disagree. I live in a large city (Liverpool) but the nearest charging points are several miles away, and I would have to go out of my way to use them.

Assuming you cannot charge at home or at work and so this is relevant then using zap map and filtering for only fast and rapid chargers I cannot physically see a location where this is true in the Liverpool area.

However if it is true that you cannot charge at home or work and there is no charger close to the locations you visit then you can count yourself unfortunate and I am sorry that you are being held back from switching.

Where I am most of the houses are old terraces with only on street parking.  These roads now have a charger probably every 20-30 yards. There are 6 within 100 yards of me even though I have off Street parking with access to power.  Several houses who have off Street parking have charge points, the two supermarkets within 1/2 mile have charge points, the town centre car park has charge points, the nearby hotels have charge points and the service station at the nearest motorway has rapid charge points.  My workplace has charge points and I have no excuses so I will be switching to EV later this year

This is becoming more and more common as the number of EVs increase, so will the infrastructure.  If my local council can do it then I see no reason why others can't follow suit.  I am not in a city or even a particularly large town.


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Re: Electric cars
« Reply #1244 on: January 16, 2020, 07:29:29 PM »
Assuming you cannot charge at home or at work and so this is relevant then using zap map and filtering for only fast and rapid chargers I cannot physically see a location where this is true in the Liverpool area.


I am in Croxteth, on the North-East edge of the city, about two miles from the nearest charging point - a place I do not frequent. I am retired so cannot charge at work, and there is no charging where I do my weekly shopping. I could possibly get a charging point installed at home, assuming it is possible, but that is not an ideal solution.

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Re: Electric cars
« Reply #1245 on: January 16, 2020, 08:37:19 PM »
I could possibly get a charging point installed at home, assuming it is possible, but that is not an ideal solution.

 A standard UK 240 volt ten amp out door outlet should be possible almost anywhere you have off street parking .Charge while you sleep. 20kW in just over eight hours should give you about 80 miles/ 100 km  of range per day.
 A charging circuit  for all offstreeet parking spaces should be written into building codes. When we built new three years ago we installed a 15amp circuit to the car port for future electric car charging  The extra cost was a hundred or so dollars.

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Re: Electric cars
« Reply #1246 on: January 16, 2020, 08:39:48 PM »
. I could possibly get a charging point installed at home, assuming it is possible, but that is not an ideal solution.
If you have off Street parking it's possible and the government are currently offering a grant that means you can have one installed for £200.  Even without a charge point you can still charge from a plug socket if you're not doing a lot of miles.
There is a rapid charger less than a mile from Croxteth but ideally you'd be charging at home while the car is in your drive if you can.


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Re: Electric cars
« Reply #1247 on: January 16, 2020, 09:41:58 PM »
IONITY just massively increased its charging price.  It’s now 2 to 3 times more expensive than using a Supercharger.
Quote
Marcel Münch 马塞 (@_mm85) 1/16/20, 12:23 PM
@IONITY_EU increases charging cost drastically, making a full charge of a Porsche Taycan Turbo cost 73 EUR. Rumors are this could be to block #Tesla owners from benefiting from the infrastructure in Germany, as VW, BMW and Daimler may opt to subsidise their customer.
https://twitter.com/_mm85/status/1217859864602599425
- Ionity now charges more than double of what @Tesla charges for supercharging: 79 cents per kWh. Either, they will be super uncompetitive - or if they will give their customers better prices, it will be pretty restrictive for other brands.
https://www.completecar.ie/amp/car_news/9751/IONITY-confirms-new-charging-pricing-for-EVs.html

The worst part: for a Taycan Turbo S that’s 73 euros for 192 miles.... :-\

IONITY confirms new charging pricing for EVs
Quote
The IONITY rapid charging network for electric vehicles is to move away from its flat-rate session price in favour of a per-kWh structure. Since the network began operating across Europe, it offered a single fixed price of €8/£8 per session, regardless of how much energy was used. As of 31 January 2020, users will now face a charge of €0.79 per kWh to recharge their electric cars. In the UK, this price will be £0.69.

Speaking at the announcement, Dr Marcus Groll, IONITY COO, indicated that the company is also mulling over plans to introduce a reduced rate in conjunction with a monthly or annual membership fee for those using the chargers more frequently. IONITY will also continue to work with other Mobility Service Providers (MSPs) such as Audi e-tron Charging Service, BMW ChargeNow, Mercedes.Me.Charge, Porsche Charging Service and Volkswagen WeCharge, all of which will continue to offer bespoke packages to their customers. ...
https://www.completecar.ie/amp/car_news/9751/IONITY-confirms-new-charging-pricing-for-EVs.html
People who say it cannot be done should not interrupt those who are doing it.

KiwiGriff

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Re: Electric cars
« Reply #1248 on: January 16, 2020, 10:38:39 PM »
The unit rate you pay will vary depending upon the energy price plan you're on, and even the region you live in, but the average cost of electricity per kWh is 14.37p,
https://www.ukpower.co.uk/home_energy/tariffs-per-unit-kwh\

Ionity will not be paying retail for the power they provide.
69p kWh
IONITY= ripoff merchant.


oren

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Re: Electric cars
« Reply #1249 on: January 17, 2020, 01:57:13 AM »
Wow. That's (literally) highway robbery.