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nanning

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Re: Electric cars
« Reply #1750 on: July 16, 2020, 06:31:55 AM »
Copy from thread "is sea ice affected by microplastics" as this article is about car tyres and electric cars are seen by many as a sustainable solution.
... 

Since your main thesis is that “all cars are bad,” this post is more appropriately placed in the “Cars cars and more cars Part Deux” thread.  Keeping such arguments separate from the transition to EVs is exactly why Neven created this alternative thread.

Sig, I think it is important to make the link between green BAU and electric cars.

We all agree that FF cars are bad in the context of AGW/biosphere collapse and should be removed from the roads as fast as possible. That is why my post is not in that thread. There is already consensus that FF cars are bad.

My post here gives essential information for future policies/focus and to readers of this forum, and for the electric car context in general. Electric cars are an integral part of green BAU. Green BAU is by progressive politics/governing in general seen as the path to the future and they all start transitioning to electric cars and green BAU. That is the wrong path imo and it is important to put a very critical spotlight on its faults and drawbacks of which there are many. This is the future of humanity and we only have one chance to take the right path and understand what needs to be done; what constitutes a real solution. That is what you want as well I gather?

Sorry to spoil your dream Sig but this is science and very much on topic. Why are you not taking the critics serious? The same happened with the horrible treatment of humans digging up the resources. You react as if you don't want to know it and want to shut me up. Why not respond to the arguments? Why do you react in this way to my honest efforts for a better future and understanding, time and again? It seems as if you feel personally attacked, and you cannot serious belief that that is my intention.

Please take of your rosy glasses (not meant as an insult) and get yourself out of this 'dream' and start evaluating critically and honestly. That is what we do on this forum is it not?
I fully understand that this is a very bitter pill to swallow and I really feel for you.
"It is preoccupation with possessions, more than anything else, that prevents us from living freely and nobly" - Bertrand Russell
"It is preoccupation with what other people from your groups think of you, that prevents you from living freely and nobly" - Nanning
Why do you keep accumulating stuff?

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Re: Electric cars
« Reply #1751 on: July 16, 2020, 07:02:23 AM »
Copy from thread "is sea ice affected by microplastics" as this article is about car tyres and electric cars are seen by many as a sustainable solution.
... 

Since your main thesis is that “all cars are bad,” this post is more appropriately placed in the “Cars cars and more cars Part Deux” thread.  Keeping such arguments separate from the transition to EVs is exactly why Neven created this alternative thread.

Sig, I think it is important to make the link between green BAU and electric cars.

We all agree that FF cars are bad in the context of AGW/biosphere collapse and should be removed from the roads as fast as possible. That is why my post is not in that thread. There is already consensus that FF cars are bad.

My post here gives essential information for future policies/focus and to readers of this forum, and for the electric car context in general. Electric cars are an integral part of green BAU. Green BAU is by progressive politics/governing in general seen as the path to the future and they all start transitioning to electric cars and green BAU. That is the wrong path imo and it is important to put a very critical spotlight on its faults and drawbacks of which there are many. This is the future of humanity and we only have one chance to take the right path and understand what needs to be done; what constitutes a real solution. That is what you want as well I gather?

Sorry to spoil your dream Sig but this is science and very much on topic. Why are you not taking the critics serious? The same happened with the horrible treatment of humans digging up the resources. You react as if you don't want to know it and want to shut me up. Why not respond to the arguments? Why do you react in this way to my honest efforts for a better future and understanding, time and again? It seems as if you feel personally attacked, and you cannot serious belief that that is my intention.

Please take of your rosy glasses (not meant as an insult) and get yourself out of this 'dream' and start evaluating critically and honestly. That is what we do on this forum is it not?
I fully understand that this is a very bitter pill to swallow and I really feel for you.

Sig Has a point about where this post belongs. It was divided into multiple threads because it was getting to unwieldy.

KiwiGriff

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Re: Electric cars
« Reply #1752 on: July 16, 2020, 07:21:46 AM »
Quote
Please take of your rosy glasses (not meant as an insult) and get yourself out of this 'dream' and start evaluating critically and honestly. That is what we do on this forum is it not?

Nanning
You gonna live life without the befits of transport?
No veg out of season no internet no consumer goods at all... no life in the 2000's
Do not think so .
look at what you have honestly and look at what brings you these things. 

Yuha made a very good point
The extremes at ever end probably go to far .
Maybe you should look at the repercussions for what you clam to want in respect of your actual life style  and who funds it .
“If you are part of a society that votes, then do so. There may be no candidates and no measures you want to vote for ... but there are certain to be ones you want to vote against. In case of doubt, vote against. By this rule you will rarely go wrong.”

― Robert A. Heinlein, Time Enough for Love

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Re: Electric cars
« Reply #1753 on: July 16, 2020, 08:28:16 AM »
Quote
Please take of your rosy glasses (not meant as an insult) and get yourself out of this 'dream' and start evaluating critically and honestly. That is what we do on this forum is it not?

 
Nanning
You gonna live life without the befits of transport?
No veg out of season no internet no consumer goods at all... no life in the 2000's
Do not think so .
look at what you have honestly and look at what brings you these things. 

Yuha made a very good point
The extremes at ever end probably go to far .
Maybe you should look at the repercussions for what you clam to want in respect of your actual life style  and who funds it .

I should not respond to this. If you read his posts on some other threads he does live sustainably or very near to it. The computer/ internet being an obvious exception
.

kassy

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Re: Electric cars
« Reply #1754 on: July 16, 2020, 02:52:42 PM »
Copy from thread "is sea ice affected by microplastics" as this article is about car tyres and electric cars are seen by many as a sustainable solution.
... 

Since your main thesis is that “all cars are bad,” this post is more appropriately placed in the “Cars cars and more cars Part Deux” thread.  Keeping such arguments separate from the transition to EVs is exactly why Neven created this alternative thread.

I think this is a good point for the tyres discussion.
Most people read both threads anyway.
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Sigmetnow

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Re: Electric cars
« Reply #1755 on: July 16, 2020, 02:58:34 PM »
This thread is for discussing the latest in EV technology and infrastructure. The original Cars, cars and more cars thread can be used to discuss what it all means as a solution in the greater scheme of things.

Edit: Make that the new Cars, cars and more cars thread.
Emphasis added.

Nanning,
Make your argument against cars as often, lengthy and emotional as you wish, but do it in the correct thread!
Making it here is just trolling. 
People who say it cannot be done should not interrupt those who are doing it.

Sigmetnow

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Re: Electric cars
« Reply #1756 on: July 16, 2020, 03:01:24 PM »
So long, CHAdeMo, we hardly knew ye.

Nissan Transitions To CCS For US And Europe, Dealing CHAdeMO A Fatal Blow
Quote
When the 2021 Nissan Ariya launches in the US and Europe next year, it will come equipped with a CCS (Combo) inlet, as the brand moves away from CHAdeMO in those markets. The Nissan LEAF and the Mitsubishi Outlander plug in hybrid are currently the only two EVs available in the US that use CHAdeMO, and the LEAF doesn't appear in Nissan's future plans. ...
https://insideevs.com/news/433929/nissan-switches-to-ccs-in-us-europe/
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SteveMDFP

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Re: Electric cars
« Reply #1757 on: July 16, 2020, 04:34:44 PM »
Sig, I wil hardly reach any members/readers there because this one is by far the most active one regarding posts and therefore readers.

I want to be able to influence people with strong scientific arguments against green BAU. I think that should not be hindered and I am not shouting it all over the forum. Can I please have some room to move? The chance to influence others is the primary reason why I came to this forum.

As Sigmetnow quoted from Neven:  "This thread is for discussing the latest in EV technology and infrastructure. The original Cars, cars and more cars thread can be used to discuss what it all means as a solution in the greater scheme of things."

Please respect the community here.  If your chief aim is to influence the readership, you're on the wrong forum entirely.

igs

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Re: Electric cars
« Reply #1758 on: July 16, 2020, 06:21:28 PM »
The extremes at ever end probably go to far .


Nice to read such true and essential wisdom here. Every person on planet earth who is aware of such things counts and to see it makes my day each time.
Knowledge that does not increase every day will decrease every day !

oren

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Re: Electric cars
« Reply #1759 on: July 16, 2020, 11:24:08 PM »
Nanning, besides the courtesy of posting things where they belong, please don't confuse post frequency with readership.
Post it, and they will come.

nanning

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Re: Electric cars
« Reply #1760 on: July 17, 2020, 05:02:40 AM »
Thank you for that information oren. I have moved my post to the general cars thread.

Let it be clear that I'd primarily want to change the minds of forum members, as those are the people that can take part in a discussion on this open but scientificly oriented forum (i.e. curious and searching for truth and understanding with respect and profesional attitude). If the intelligent people here are not able to change their opinion then my cause is lost. I already lost my goal in conveying the meaning of my extensive and fundamental research to my extreme disappointment. It is possible that that is mainly because of the privileged USA style here and the average age of forum members. Terry was a great exception. I miss him greatly.
« Last Edit: July 17, 2020, 05:11:31 AM by nanning »
"It is preoccupation with possessions, more than anything else, that prevents us from living freely and nobly" - Bertrand Russell
"It is preoccupation with what other people from your groups think of you, that prevents you from living freely and nobly" - Nanning
Why do you keep accumulating stuff?

Sigmetnow

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Re: Electric cars
« Reply #1761 on: July 17, 2020, 08:48:35 PM »
BMW iX3 electric crossover detailed: US misses out on first new-generation EV
July 16, 2020
Quote
The first of BMW's next-generation electric cars has arrived, but it's not coming to the United States.
The 2021 BMW iX3 electric crossover was originally slated for the U.S., but BMW no longer plans to offer it here. The iX3 will launch in China, where it will also be built, later this year.
The iX3 is based on the X3 crossover and thus Tesla Model Y–sized. It's powered by a single rear-mounted electric motor….
The iX3's top speed is electronically limited to 112 mph.
An 80-kilowatt-hour battery pack mounted under the floor—with improved, fifth-generation pack architecture and power systems—enables an estimated range of 285 miles on the European WLTP testing cycle. An equivalent figure on the U.S. EPA testing cycle would be somewhat lower.

2021 BMW iX3
The iX3 is equipped for DC fast charging at up to 150 kilowatts. That will add 60 miles of range in 10 minutes of charging, or accomplish an 80% charge in 34 minutes, according to BMW.

BMW had planned to bring the iX3 to the U.S. as recently as last December. Then, perhaps relating to tariffs and strong EV growth in Europe, the decision changed. The lack of all-wheel drive, which might limit the iX3's appeal among U.S. crossover buyers, may have been a factor as well.
The iX3 is BMW's long-awaited step up to mass production of electric cars, beyond the niche numbers of i3 city cars sold so far.
BMW still plans 12 all-electric models by 2025. Both the Tesla Model 3-like i4 sedan and the iNext SUV are due in 2021. Both are headed to the U.S.
https://www.greencarreports.com/news/1128889_bmw-ix3-electric-crossover-detailed-us-misses-out-on-first-new-generation-ev

—-
Fisker ‘Ocean’ EV.  Actual Purchase price from $37,499 USD.  Minus $7,500 US tax credits, if you qualify for them.  OTA updates.
Expected Q4 2022.
Quote
Henrik Fisker (@henrikfisker) 7/15/20, 11:14 PM
Show me ANY luxury SUV, gasoline or electric starting at $29,999 ???!!! No, it does not exist! Only with our business model using high volume MEB platform (millions volume)pricing & our proprietary development process. & only $250,- to reserve!#fisker #love #EVs $SPAQ
https://twitter.com/henrikfisker/status/1283600832873693184
[ Image of back of car. ]
< Yours doesn’t exist yet either, so
<< They unveiled a working model at CES so it technically exists. Its simply not mass produced yet.

—-
One Year With a Tesla Model 3 Performance: An Owner's Perspective
https://www.motortrend.com/news/tesla-model-3-ownership-experience/

—-
Driving Electric in Africa Is A Whole Lot Cheaper Than Driving ICE: Part 2
Quote
Driving the 38.3 kWh Hyundai Ioniq over 100 km in Angola would only cost you $0.21! Yes, $0.21. In Egypt it would cost you just $0.46 and in Algeria it could cost you $0.61. The Hyundai Ionic has won critical acclaim for its exceptional efficiency. With its consumption of around 153 Wh/km it is surely one to get in these countries. Looking at an equivalent ICE car, the Toyota Corolla would cost you a whopping eleven times more at $2.40 in Angola to drive the same distance. It would also cost you four times more at $2.60 in Algeria and nine times more at $4.01 in Egypt. …
https://cleantechnica.com/2020/07/17/driving-electric-in-africa-is-a-whole-lot-cheaper-than-driving-ice-part-2/

—-
Fiat Chrysler, Peugeot to be known as Stellantis following merger
Quote
Fiat Chrysler and Peugeot agreed to the $50 billion merger, which would create the world's third-largest automaker, in December 2019.
At the time they said the deal would allow them to cut costs by $4.1 billion a year without resorting to factory closures. 
https://www.upi.com/Top_News/US/2020/07/16/Fiat-Chrysler-Peugeot-to-be-known-as-Stellantis-following-merger/8741594933956/
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Sigmetnow

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Re: Electric cars
« Reply #1762 on: July 18, 2020, 03:30:51 AM »
I hope folks don’t mind occasional Nikola updates.  If nothng else, they have entertainment value.

This Trevor Milton interview nicely follows up on many of the questions generated by previous discussions.  Trevor’s answers are as forthcoming as you’d expect.
Example:
Quote
”…how are your Badger FCEV customers going to fill up before your H2 station network is available throughout the country? What’s the timeline for those satellite stations?”

Trevor: The Badger is a different rollout than the semi-truck. We will allow customers to order the Badger in a BEV [Battery Electric Vehicle] version that is upgradable to FCEV [Fuel Cell Electric Vehicle] once the station comes online near them. It is the only pickup designed to be upgraded in the future. We have 13 stations going up for Anheuser-Busch and those 13 markets we will allow customers to purchase the FCEV first as we will provide smaller stations in those cities for consumers to use. The large semi truck stations will be the main production of H2 and Nikola will distribute that hydrogen to smaller stations around the city. Most consumers will order the truck in BEV then upgrade to FCEV down the road when the H2 comes online.

Interview with Trevor Milton, founder and executive chairman of Nikola Corporation   (NASDAQ: NKLA)
Published on July 17, 2020
https://www.linkedin.com/pulse/interview-trevor-milton-founder-executive-chairman-nikola-meckmann


—-
This Seeking Alpha article notes that major investors have filed to sell large amounts of their Nikola shares.
“The list of selling shareholders is extensive with major funds like Fidelity Investments looking to unload millions of shares. A company such as Worthington Industries (WOR) has already unloaded 5 million shares and has another 14 million shares to sell.

The scary part for investors is that the majority of the funds have filed to sell all of their holdings.”


Nikola: Follow The Selling Shareholders Out The Door
Jul. 15, 2020
https://seekingalpha.com/article/4358643-nikola-follow-selling-shareholders-out-door
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Sigmetnow

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Re: Electric cars
« Reply #1763 on: July 27, 2020, 02:28:06 AM »
Hydrogen fuel cells

—— BMW
Quote
Whole Mars Catalog (@WholeMarsBlog) 7/26/20, 2:41 AM
BMW is doing a hydrogen fuel cell X5. Toyota will supply the fuel cells.
they’re totally going to go bankrupt
https://twitter.com/wholemarsblog/status/1287276920422322178

“Automakers have in past years discontinued hydrogen models because of the high cost of the technology and, more recently, rising pressure to conserve cash to deal with the coronavirus pandemic.”
BMW to make X5 SUVs that will run on hydrogen fuel-cells
https://pageone.ng/2020/07/24/bmw-to-make-x5-suvs-that-will-run-on-hydrogen-fuel-cells/


—— Nikola
Quote
Ramp Capital (@RampCapitalLLC) 7/26/20, 9:14 AM
$NKLA -69% from ATH on June 9th
https://twitter.com/rampcapitalllc/status/1287375775134617600
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NeilT

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Re: Electric cars
« Reply #1764 on: July 27, 2020, 10:19:03 AM »
There is a piece of reality going on here about the ability to produce viable power packs for millions of vehicles a year.

Tesla can do it, the rest are only just waking up to what 11 years of development really means.

I'm sure that many of the manufacturers thought they could just walk in and buy what they needed when the technology matured. The problem is that the technology never matured enough because they kept waiting for it to mature.

Tesla, on the other hand, chose to drive their own power technology and develop their own mature ecosystem.

The end result of that is pretty clear.  Tesla are a decade ahead and you don't just buy a decade of engineering and process refinement.

As a result they are desperately looking for alternatives to fill the gap.  Alternatives that allow them to avoid EU fines in the short term.
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Sigmetnow

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Re: Electric cars
« Reply #1765 on: July 27, 2020, 07:17:23 PM »
There is a piece of reality going on here about the ability to produce viable power packs for millions of vehicles a year.
...

Yes, but aside from the automakers’ desperate search for batteries, there is likely also a big push from Big Oil to keep vehicles dependent on fossil fuel derivatives for as long as possible.  Most hydrogen today comes from natural gas.
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Sigmetnow

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Re: Electric cars
« Reply #1766 on: July 27, 2020, 07:25:03 PM »
—- VW ID.3
Very nice Volkswagen ID.3 review by Autogefühl
H/t @TeslaStars

VW ID.3 FULL REVIEW driving the new Volkswagen EV ID 3 - Autogefühl
“Unique”
Driving hardware: excellent
Software: not so much



—-  VW ID.4
VW’s Chattanooga, Tennessee plant will begin producing the ID.4 in 2022.  VW will import the ID.4 to the U.S. from Europe for the first two years.
UPDATE - VW’s Plant Expansion Is "On Plan" - You'll Get The US ID.4 In 2022
https://insideevs.com/news/435950/vw-us-plant-expansion-on-plan/amp/


—- Nikola
On August 4, Nikola will have its first earnings call.  They’ll be asked to update Badger pickup truck launch pre-orders.
Google search interest has not exactly skyrocketed since reservations were opened.
(See:  https://twitter.com/garyblack00/status/1287388689165963265 )

In an interview last week, Trevor Milton dialed back expectations, saying:
“We will probably do around 5,000–10,000 trucks per year, because we just don’t have the capability to do more than that.
… We’re going to announce who that OEM (original equipment manufacturer) partner is soon, and they’re going to help us build it, but our idea with the Badger is to make a very exclusive club where people are just waiting to buy it. ...”


Nikola Motor’s Trevor Milton Talks Fuel Cells, Trucking, & Short Sellers
https://cleantechnica.com/2020/07/20/nikola-motors-trevor-milton-talks-fuel-cells-trucking-short-sellers/amp/
July 20th, 2020
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Sigmetnow

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Re: Electric cars
« Reply #1767 on: July 28, 2020, 01:46:13 AM »
What the ?!  :o

July 22:
Quote
Motor Skeptic (@MotorSkeptic) 7/22/20, 11:33 AM
$NKLA Trevor Milton just changed his lock-up agreement to allow him to sell his 130 million shares on Dec. 1, 2020, immediately before Nikola World, instead of on March 2, 2021, when his lock-ups originally expired. Pump and Dump.
https://twitter.com/motorskeptic/status/1285961048193773568

Trevor Milton (@nikolatrevor) 7/22/20, 1:12 PM

Board approved me to be able to borrow up to 16% of my 91MM shares to buy shares in NKLA. I will NOT be selling shares. I have to wait to do it legally timing wise, but the filing shows a lockup change, and that is how confident I am in the company.

Driving Delta (@Mars4x4) 7/23/20, 1:19 AM
@nikolatrevor That amendment does two things it: (1) allows you to use 16% of shares as collateral to buy more shares and (2) ** accelerates your lockup from 3/2/21 to 12/1/20 **. It could have just done #1. Please explain why you amended to accelerate the lockup period.
https://twitter.com/mars4x4/status/1286168920550830081
[no response]

Today:
Quote
Whole Mars Catalog (@WholeMarsBlog) 7/27/20, 5:55 PM
Did Trevor change his lockup period from 12 months to 6?
https://twitter.com/wholemarsblog/status/1287869361215037440
[Lengthy Text image on the Lock-up Agreement]

Trevor MiIton (@TMiiton) 7/27/20, 7:10 PM

@WholeMarsBlog Yep. 
[no further response]
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Sigmetnow

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Re: Electric cars
« Reply #1768 on: July 28, 2020, 02:03:28 AM »
There is a piece of reality going on here about the ability to produce viable power packs for millions of vehicles a year.
...

Yes, but aside from the automakers’ desperate search for batteries, there is likely also a big push from Big Oil to keep vehicles dependent on fossil fuel derivatives for as long as possible.  Most hydrogen today comes from natural gas.

I can’t find that this has been posted yet:

Revealed: fossil-fuel lobbying behind EU hydrogen strategy
Quote
So why is the hydrogen strategy, and more worryingly, the European Green Deal, courting fossil gas?

As Green MEP Michael Bloss put it: "The gas lobby has massive influence on the EU hydrogen strategy".
...
The fossil fuel lobby has exploited the shock caused by the pandemic and in the name of 'recovery' managed to double Invest EU funds for hydrogen and CCS (unproven carbon capture and storage technology). This is the perfect example of what author and scholar Naomi Klein calls the "shock doctrine".

In general, the fossil fuel lobby is quite happy with the focus the EU is putting on "net-zero by 2050" and the push for hydrogen.

Why? It keeps their business model largely intact and allows huge energy companies to remain in control of a centralised energy system, from which they can keep profiting now and in the decades to come.

As with other 'false solutions' prioritised by the fossil fuel industry in recent decades, the hydrogen option allows fossil fuel companies to keep polluting without much disruption to their business model. ...
https://euobserver.com/opinion/148873
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NeilT

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Re: Electric cars
« Reply #1769 on: July 28, 2020, 12:26:04 PM »
Sig, there was a massive chunk of horse trading went into the EU negotiations to agree their budget and set up a recovery fund to emerge from covid.

The EU budget was supposed to be finalised in 2019 but with the departure of the UK an expansionary budget was deemed unrealistic by those who have to pay for it and so it could not be agreed.

Because the UK stops paying in January, it is impossible for the EU to just kick the can down the road and add a bit more on for the recovery.  The UK was the second largest economy in the EU and is the second largest net contributor to EU funds. As there are only 8 net contributors to the EU 28 budget, which will become 7 in January, not agreeing the budget, whilst agreeing a covid rescue fund was not an option.

Having set the scene, here is the relevant bit.

In order to bring the 5 nations lobbying to scale back the budget and the recovery fund (all net contributors), Germany and France (the other two net contributors), needed to get everyone else on side in order to get the rescue fund agreed.  What is not seen in the press is that Germany and France are the third and fourth largest recipients of this fund.

So they need Poland and Hungary on board. Neither of whom have signed up to the EU 2050 0% emissions target.

If you do a bit of digging into the budget they agreed, certain areas of green funding were slashed and a commitment to Hydrogen was made for larger vehicles.

Poland is one of the highest users of Coal in the EU and is not transitioning out any time soon.

Poland and Hungary held the EU to ransom during these negotiations forcing a climb down on renewable funds, targets and the rule of law.

For those discerning climate readers, the UK exit from the EU was a disaster because these Eastern EU States were relying on deep UK cuts in emissions to keep emitting and still fall within the EU targets overall.

It is no surprise that the EU is attempting to follow a path which established industry believes is lower risk. These politicians have no real way of knowing that they are being led into a blind alley and, to be honest, don't care if their successors have to deal with it.
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NeilT

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Re: Electric cars
« Reply #1770 on: July 28, 2020, 02:55:12 PM »
It seems the VW I'd.3 is really going to come out in October.

https://electrek.co/2020/07/27/first-german-buyers-of-id-3-ev-are-young-techie-males-and-first-time-vw-owners/amp/

Some interesting statements which are not passing the sniff test.

Quote
Despite the change in timing, Stackmann said that VW would deliver between 60,000 and 70,000 new electric vehicles this year.

So 60k to 70k per quarter.

Followed by.

Quote
Herbert Diess, the VW Group’s chief executive, hopes that sales of ID.3 will launch the company’s ascent to not only being the world’s biggest seller of EVs but the globe’s most valuable company. Diess said:

In five to ten years, the most valuable company in the world will be a mobility company. It could be Tesla, Apple, or Volkswagen.

It can't be VW at 70k per quarter.  Fremont is scaling up for 600k vehicles per year, Shanghai is 500k initially but more likely to be closer to 750k, Berlin, 3 times the size of Shanghai, is sized for 2 million and Austin is 3 times the size of Berlin.

Unless Diess intends to stop manufacturing ICE vehicles, next year, he doesn't have a hope.

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KiwiGriff

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Re: Electric cars
« Reply #1771 on: July 28, 2020, 07:40:24 PM »
They have been producing the ID3 since September 2019.
Stored like the bricks they are.
Software is still not complete apparently they will release a model without the ability to OTA update  first.

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Sigmetnow

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Re: Electric cars
« Reply #1772 on: July 29, 2020, 04:49:54 PM »
GM swings to a loss as coronavirus shuttered factories and devastated sales
Quote
General Motors lost about $800 million and burned through billions of dollars in the second quarter in what is expected to be the worst three months of the year for the auto industry as the coronavirus pandemic shuttered factories and devastated sales.
Here’s what GM reported versus what Wall Street is expecting, based on average analysts estimates compiled by Refinitive.
   •   EPS: A loss of 50 cents a share versus a loss of $1.77 per share expected.
   •   Revenue: $16.8 billion versus $17.3 billion expected.

The company burned through about $8 billion in cash during the quarter, a number that analysts and investors are closely tracking.
GM said it expected to spend between $7 billion and $9 billion in the second quarter.

The second quarter is expected to be “likely to be the toughest in modern history” for the automotive industry, according to Bank of America Merrill Lynch analyst John Murphy, noting that companies “grappled with close to a zero revenue environment for a few months.”  Other investors and industry executives have called the second quarter “unprecedented,” and likely the worst three months of the year.

Of the Detroit automakers, GM was expected to be best positioned to weather a crisis as big as the coronavirus pandemic. For years, the automaker has aggressively cut costs and exited unprofitable markets, including Europe, to fortify its balance sheet.
GM’s second-quarter U.S. vehicle sales fell 34% from a year ago, the company said earlier this month. That was in-line with the industry.
GM reported second-quarter net income last year of $2.4 billion on new revenue of $36.1 billion.
https://www.cnbc.com/2020/07/29/general-motors-gm-earnings-q2-2020.html

—-
Mitsubishi Is In Trouble, Freezes New Car Launches In Europe
https://insideevs.com/news/436105/mitsubishi-troubles-freeze-new-models-europe/amp/

——

Tesla Sales in Korea Spike 1500%+ in 1st Half 2020 (YoY), Captures Almost Half of All Subsidies
Quote
Electric vehicle sales reached 22,267 units in the first half of 2020, up 23% from the previous year, according to a report released by the Korea Automobile Manufacturers Association on July 26. Tesla sales in particular increased more than 15 times, accounting for 43% of all EV subsidies, according to Business Korea. …
https://www.tesmanian.com/blogs/tesmanian-blog/tesla-accounts-for-43-of-subsidies-for-electric-passenger-vehicles-in-korea

—-
Britain has reached 'peak petrol', according to study
Half of UK drivers are considering switch to electric car
Quote
NEW RESEARCH has revealed that the UK has reached “peak petrol”, with sales of combustion engine vehicles only set to fall as the country embraces its electric future.

The study, by Deloitte, the auditing and consulting company, estimated that more than two in five (42%) new cars sold in Europe by the end of this decade will be pure-electric. Polling showed that half of UK motorists would consider purchasing an electric vehicle (EV) as their next model.

The research predicted that five territories — the UK, Germany, France, the Netherlands and Scandinavia — would lead the uptake, due to their ability to invest in charging infrastructure and offer financial incentives to those thinking of buying an electric car.

It further estimated that by the end of this year, annual worldwide EV sales will reach 2.5m, rising to 11.2m by 2025 and then to over 30m by the end of the decade. …
https://www.driving.co.uk/news/uk-reached-peak-petrol-says-research/

—-
Thailand is using COVID-19 to ditch gas cars in favor of EVs
Quote
Thailand’s automotive industry is changing for the better, and it took the COVID-19 pandemic to accelerate the shift to electrification.
Since the pandemic has started, shutdowns of automotive factories have allowed a shift to electric vehicles from combustion engines to take shape.  900,000 Thai citizens are employed in the automotive industry. Now, many of them are returning to work after a long layoff because of the pandemic.

Because so many automotive manufacturing facilities have been shut down for an extended period, there is a significant parts shortage. The lack of materials is favorable for a push toward EVs because the battery-powered cars require significantly fewer parts compared to their gas-powered counterparts. An EV uses between 1,500 and 3,000 parts per vehicle, while a combustion engine uses 30,000 total parts.
Therefore, auto part makers are forced to adapt to keep their doors open and reduce the loss of jobs.

Thai auto-parts manufacturers are focusing on other industries like medical equipment to keep the economy afloat as the pandemic could cause over 300,000 jobs to be lost, Reuters reported.
https://www.teslarati.com/thailand-covid-19-electric-vehicle-production/amp/

—-
NEVER FORGET!
Quote
JPR007 (@jpr007) 7/22/20, 9:41 AM
VW DIESELGATE CARS IN THE CALIFORNIA DESERT
Lest We Forget . . .
THREAD
1/18
https://twitter.com/jpr007/status/1285932890790879233
~ Volkswagen was forced to buy back 350,000 cars for $7.4 billion in the U.S. over the diesel scandal known as DieselGate
The German automaker has been forced to get creative when it comes to responsibly storing the hundreds of thousands of vehicles they had to buy back
2/18
Photo below.
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kassy

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Re: Electric cars
« Reply #1773 on: July 29, 2020, 06:23:35 PM »
Interesting palette. Get a green car and you will see it from miles.  :)
Þetta minnismerki er til vitnis um að við vitum hvað er að gerast og hvað þarf að gera. Aðeins þú veist hvort við gerðum eitthvað.

Sigmetnow

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Re: Electric cars
« Reply #1774 on: July 31, 2020, 08:14:47 PM »
——  VW ID.3 pre-orders
Quote
Joe Miller (@JoeMillerJr)7/27/20, 3:00 AM
Encouraging news for VW as it begins its Tesla offensive.
85% of pre-orders for the ID.3 came from customers who’d never driven a VW before. Purchasers were also 10 years younger than the average Golf buyer.
https://twitter.com/joemillerjr/status/1287643962451394563
Has a Financial Times link.

——  Polestar 2: a heavy, traditional-looking car for an EV
Quote
Alex (@alex_avoigt) 7/10/20, 8:53 AM
First Polestar tests are coming in & my high hopes are disappointed
A first Nexmove test (summer conditions): a range of 270km (176 miles) vs the promised 470km!
Android looks good, less cabin space, charging [thumbs down], good built quality for €57k - 70k


[German, with English subtitles.]

https://twitter.com/alex_avoigt/status/1281572217659232257

< Autovisie (dutch magazine) did a test with model 3 and polestar. ~100km usage model 3: 16 kwh and polestar 20kwh. So 25% less efficient
<< The rather traditional body hits hard on the EV efficiency, I'd have never imagined that the cars air resistance has this much of an impact - even at merely above 100 kph.
Alex:  It's not just aerodynamics (Why that grill?) but they add to the low efficiency.
Because of the battery cell technology used automakers often reduce the usable battery capacity. …

Tesla Model 3’s Main Rival, The Polestar 2 Reviewed In The UK
https://insideevs.com/reviews/433163/polestar-2-road-test-review-uk/
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Sigmetnow

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Re: Electric cars
« Reply #1775 on: July 31, 2020, 08:25:26 PM »
Fisker hits snag in deal to use Volkswagen’s EV platform
Talks are now delayed until at least September after the two sides failed to reach an agreement
Quote
Fisker Inc. has hit a snag in the plan to power its electric vehicles with Volkswagen’s modular EV platform, as negotiations over a “cornerstone agreement” that were supposed to end this month are now delayed until at least September.

In a scripted presentation to investors filed with the Securities and Exchange Commission (SEC) early Friday morning, founder Henrik Fisker says his company has “not achieved our goal of signing a cornerstone agreement with VW by the end of July 2020 as we previously anticipated.” The agreement is supposed to lock in costs, production capacity, and a production timeline.

Fisker says he “looks forward to continuing discussions with VW again in September after the traditional European summer holidays,” but adds that Fisker Inc. remains “in conversation with several other potential OEMs and suppliers.” ...

 :o This sounds suspiciously like Nikola:
Quote
Fisker Inc. is currently trying to become publicly traded on the New York Stock Exchange by merging with Spartan Energy Acquisition Corp. Spartan, which was started by Apollo Global Management, is a “blank check company” or “special purpose acquisition company” — essentially an entity with no real business that gets listed on a stock exchange and then seeks out a company to merge with, thereby offering something of a shortcut around the traditional IPO process. The script was filed with the SEC by Spartan.

While Fisker says he still believes in Fisker Inc.’s overall timeline (deliveries starting “as early as the end of 2022”), time is of the essence. Spartan shareholders gave the company two years to merge with another company, and that deadline is up on August 14th. In the meantime, Spartan has asked those shareholders to approve an extension of the deadline to February 2021. A vote is scheduled for next week.

Fisker Inc. and Spartan announced their proposed merger earlier this month, adding themselves to a suddenly growing list of investments and mergers in the electric vehicle space. As The Verge first reported, Fisker Inc. revealed at the time that it has been in talks with Volkswagen to use the German automaker’s so-called MEB platform (which consists of scalable battery packs, electric motors, and the other EV tech that drives a car) for years. The two signed a memorandum of understanding in November 2017, and a “collaboration agreement” in December 2018. The first prototype of Fisker Inc.’s Ocean SUV, which debuted at the 2020 Consumer Electronics Show, was even built by Volkswagen’s Italdesign subsidiary on the MEB platform.

Fisker Inc. has said it wants to build two more models on the MEB platform beyond the Ocean. …

In order to avoid the pitfalls of making an electric vehicle in-house, Fisker has said he wants Fisker Inc. to be “asset light” and not vertically integrated. Instead, he’s planning to source as much of the hardware from other companies as possible so Fisker Inc. “can focus exclusively on innovation in consumer-facing areas of the car, which are software, sustainability and a highly emotional design.”

“We are confident that this asset light model will allow us to deliver a compelling, affordable vehicle with an unparalleled digital consumer experience,” Fisker says in the script made public on Friday. “[W]e are pursuing an industry changing business model that will deliver Emass, or Emobility as a service, with the most sustainable, emotional design to deliver ultimate value to the consumer, while driving the biggest profits in the automotive industry. This is our commitment, and we are on target to deliver on this.”
https://www.theverge.com/2020/7/31/21349464/fisker-volkswagen-vw-ev-platform-deal-spaq-spac-spartan


Tesla Cybertruck Reservations 713,000. Fisker Ocean SUV: 7,062
Fisker shared today that reservations for the Fisker Ocean SUV, expected to begin production in the second quarter of 2022, hit 7,062.
“Registered interest” numbers hit 30,277.
https://www.forbes.com/sites/johnkoetsier/2020/07/30/tesla-cybertruck-reservations-713000-fisker-electric-suv-7062/
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NeilT

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Re: Electric cars
« Reply #1776 on: August 01, 2020, 07:12:25 PM »
Interesting concept, base your business model on buying a concept from another company and providing "value add" with style and software.

Well it might work.  I would have thought that choosing a partner with an actual viable product which was in progress of actual sales should be a prerequisite for that though??

Otherwise you might wind up disappointing your customers if your chosen platform comes in late (or never).
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Sigmetnow

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Re: Electric cars
« Reply #1777 on: August 01, 2020, 09:28:37 PM »
Pretty much the direct opposite of “vertical manufacturing.”  Don’t make anything yourself, just pray that all your suppliers deliver an acceptable product, in needed amounts, on time... and that someone has the skills to pull it all together.  Very few new auto companies succeed (before Tesla, Ford was the last) — I don’t see how lessening your control over the final product improves those odds.
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Sigmetnow

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Re: Electric cars
« Reply #1778 on: August 05, 2020, 07:56:07 PM »
Global Plug-In Electric Car Sales June 2020: Model 3 Leads, Model Y In 14th YTD
The top three models in June were:
   •   Tesla Model 3 - 35,854 (#1 YTD: 142,346)
   •   Renault ZOE - 10,553 (#2 YTD: 37,154)
   •   Tesla Model Y - about 7,500 (#14 YTD: 13,415)
https://insideevs.com/news/436920/global-plugin-car-sales-june-2020/amp/
Graph below.


—- The Honda “e” city car
Honda Electric Car Is Range And Price Challenged, But Technology, Quality Are Plusses
Quote
Cars like the Renault Zoe (240 miles) and the Peugeot 208 e (220 miles) are priced very close to the Honda e but are bigger, and have this huge almost double advantage in range. Honda counters with the argument that the interior quality of the “e” is in a higher class, and the technology offered is also worth paying for. Honda says that for most daily commuters, the range of 125 miles would be more than adequate, while its fast charging is top class. Honda says it can be 80% recharged in 30 minutes.

Honda has no current plan to sell the car in the U.S.
https://www.forbes.com/sites/neilwinton/2020/07/26/honda-electric-car-is-range-and-price-challenged-but-technology-quality-are-plusses/amp/
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Sigmetnow

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Re: Electric cars
« Reply #1779 on: August 06, 2020, 06:06:52 PM »
Nikola’s Q2 earnings call this week mostly consisted of them reading the SEC filing.  They refused to give a number of Badger reservations, and still have not contracted with an OEM to build it. 

https://sec.report/Document/0001731289-20-000009/

They also revealed that each hydrogen station will take 18 months to build, and no production is expected this year.
Quote
ALEX  (@ajtourville) 8/5/20, 1:36 PM
6/9
Nikola signed the contract with Anheuser-Busch in February 2018 which stipulates Nikola must provide hydrogen trucks & hydrogen fueling stations for each of the 13 AB locations in the Network by December 31, 2021.
https://twitter.com/ajtourville/status/1291065625666781186
~ 7/9
30 months after signing the Anheuser-Busch contract, Trevor Milton says Nikola hasn't even determined the location of the first 2 hydrogen stations & that it will take Nikola 18 months to assemble each Nel plug & play station!
~ 8/9
Not to mention Nikola only began the beta engineering of its hydrogen truck in Q1-2020 & that it isn't even scheduled to go into production until 2023!

The “factory” in Ulm, Germany where the BEV Nikola Tre is to be made is a small warehouse with no assembly equipment visible in the SEC photos.  (One photo shows a long-abandoned, empty space.)   The “Business Outlook” section of the filing is exactly three lines, saying only that they plan to begin “testing” (of some sort) in 2021 before proceeding to “low volume production” of the Nikola Tre (no time frame given).

Quote
Nikola Tesla’s Ghost  (@Nikola_Truth) 8/4/20, 4:37 PM
So what was once ‘12 months’ and became ‘mid to late next year’ is actually at best late next year.
Even then, that’s probably still optimistic.
https://twitter.com/nikola_truth/status/1290748626902421505

The only Q2 revenue in the filing is $36,000 (reported as “$0.04 million”) which Trevor Milton paid the company to install solar panels on his house in Utah.
< $0.04 million is the cutest way I’ve ever seen to say $40,000  This year, they also built 0.0 million vehicles.

"Is this all we get?" Paul Coster of JPMorgan asked. Jeff Osborne, an analyst at Cowen, said Nikola's rollout timeline is "a bit confusing."
Tesla competitor Nikola sinks 17% after debut earnings report misses forecasts and analyst call turns contentious
https://www.businessinsider.com/nikola-stock-price-q2-earnings-miss-loss-estimates-analyst-call-2020-8

Why Nikola Stock Fell Sharply After Earnings
Quote
Investors would have been delighted to hear that Nikola has a manufacturing partner for its electric Badger pickup -- but no news was forthcoming on Tuesday.

Nikola's stock is down because the company missed a different set of expectations. As Deutsche Bank analyst Emmanuel Rosner said in a note on Monday, before Nikola reported, investors were expecting news on any of several fronts.

News of (for instance) new fleet customers for Nikola's upcoming battery-electric semi, an announcement of a commercial partner for its hydrogen refueling network, or a manufacturing partner for its Badger pickup truck could have pushed the stock significantly higher. …
https://www.fool.com/investing/2020/08/05/why-nikola-stock-fell-sharply-after-earnings.aspx
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Sigmetnow

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Re: Electric cars
« Reply #1780 on: August 08, 2020, 04:47:26 PM »
Electric car power accepted as payment for parking in Japan
Quote
Nissan Leaf drivers in Japan can now pay for parking with electricity from their vehicle.
The proof-of-concept experiment, at Nissan’s Pavilion exhibition space in Yokohama, allows EV owners to pay for their stay by feeding battery power back into a localised grid.
The Pavilion opened on August 1, 2020, and will run until October 23. It is an arena for the Japanese manufacture to show off new technologies.
“The Pavilion is a place where customers can see, feel, and be inspired by our near-future vision for society and mobility,” said Nissan CEO Makoto Uchida.
“As the world shifts to electric mobility, EVs will be integrated into society in ways that go beyond just transportation.”
Practical implementation of the displayed energy storage and sharing systems is still in its early stages, however Nissan has reportedly entered into agreements with local governments to use their vehicles as mobile battery units during natural disasters.
The Nissan Leaf was launched globally in 2010.  It is priced in Australia from $49,990 (plus on road costs).
https://www.caradvice.com.au/870712/electric-car-power-accepted-as-payment-for-parking-in-japan/

——
Audi lowers the E-Tron SUV's starting price by $9,000 for 2021
And introduces a new Sportback model.
https://www.engadget.com/audi-e-tron-suv-price-092328684.html

—-
Used Teslas sell very fast compared to other models, data confirms
August 7, 2020
Quote
As overall demand for used cars slows due to the coronavirus pandemic, used Teslas are selling faster than other electric cars.
According to new analysis from iSeeCars.com, the Tesla Model 3, Model X, and Model S were the top three fastest-selling electric cars, while the Model 3 was the fastest-selling used car overall—including both electric and internal-combustion models.

That's based on analysis of vehicles from model years 2015 through 2019 listed on that website, which used two datasets for this analysis. One from November 2019 to February 2020 represent pre-coronavirus sales trends, and another from March 2020 to June 2020 gave a tally of sales during the pandemic.
The sales trend is in part a classic case of supply and demand.
"The Tesla Model 3, which was the automaker's least-expensive vehicle, had the highest number of preorders of any car ever produced, and the long wait time helped further drive the high demand for the vehicle which has been sustained in the secondary marketplace," …
https://www.greencarreports.com/news/1129139_used-teslas-sell-very-fast-compared-to-other-models-data-confirms

—-
Should I Buy An Electric Car Or Hybrid Now?
https://www.forbes.com/sites/christopherelliott/2020/08/07/should-i-buy-an-electric-car-or-hybrid-now/#3852f1434c62
Not much new here for regular readers of this thread, but it’s a good reflection of where the public is now.  Includes several personal stories and their reasoning.

====
Quote
Automotive News (@Automotive_News) 8/6/20, 2:21 PM
FCA likely to recall 1M vehicles in U.S. for excess tailpipe emissions 
https://twitter.com/automotive_news/status/1291439167512043520

——
Ford CEO surprises everyone by retiring after just three years
Ford just got its fourth CEO in six years.
https://arstechnica.com/cars/2020/08/ford-ceo-jim-hackett-retires-after-just-3-years-and-a-40-stock-slide/
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Sigmetnow

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Re: Electric cars
« Reply #1781 on: August 10, 2020, 05:49:54 PM »
Brits Want Sales Of Gas And Diesel Cars To Cease Before 2035
Quote
82 percent of the 1,114 respondents feel that the rule should be brought forward from 2035, with 60 percent saying that a 2030 phasing out of ICE vehicles would be a good idea.

The survey also showed that almost all (96 percent) believed that an earlier phasing out of ICE cars would have a positive affect on public health, while 72.9 percent said that it would also have a positive affect on the UK economy. …
https://insideevs.com/news/437966/uk-end-gas-diesel-car-sales/amp/

—-
Hyundai spins Ioniq into separate brand, announces 3 new electric cars
On Sunday, the company announced it's spinning Ioniq as a new brand that's dedicated to battery-powered electric vehicles.

The Ioniq 5, a midsize CUV (compact SUV), coming in 2021, will be based on the EV 45 concept, unveiled by Hyundai in Frankfurt last year.
The first vehicle to come after the Ioniq 5 will be the Ioniq 6 sedan, based on the company's Prophecy concept, in 2022. Finally, the Ioniq 7 SUV will be coming in early 2024.

Notably, the currently available Hyundai Ioniq EV won't be sold under the new brand.
https://mashable.com/article/hyundai-ioniq-5/

——
Australia
An electric vehicle (Tesla Model 3) just won a Targa Rally in WA for the first time
August 9, 2020
https://techau.com.au/tesla-model-3-just-won-a-targa-rally-in-wa-for-the-first-time/
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Sigmetnow

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Re: Electric cars
« Reply #1782 on: August 10, 2020, 08:21:02 PM »
Cadillac has revealed the vehicle that will kick off its electric future... which is still two years away.

After earlier postponing their planned reveal of the Cadillac Lyriq due to the pandemic, GM had an on-line event August 6.
Electric 2023 Cadillac Lyriq revealed as brand shifts to battery power
Quote
The Lyriq is a midsized SUV with a promised range of over 300 miles between charges that is scheduled to go on sale in the U.S. in late 2022, when it will become Cadillac’s first all-electric vehicle and compete with models like the Audi E-Tron Jaguar I-Pace and Tesla Model X.

Offered in rear-wheel-drive and all-wheel-drive models, the Lyriq is powered by GM’s upcoming Ultium battery, which is more advanced than the current technology used in the Chevrolet Bolt.

GM North America president Steve Carlisle said pricing for the Lyriq will start under $75,000 and that the brand is aiming to offer electric versions of its entire lineup by 2030.
https://www.foxnews.com/auto/electric-2023-cadillac-lyric-suv-revealed-as-brand-shifts-to-battery-power.amp

Quote
Whole Mars Catalog (@WholeMarsBlog) 8/6/20, 7:54 PM
"Our objective is to offer over 300 miles range on what we’re doing with these products and the variants on these products. But we’re still in the development phase of the program"
Translation: We hope we can hit 300 but we have no clue
https://twitter.com/wholemarsblog/status/1291523153252896768

Quote
Whole Mars Catalog (@WholeMarsBlog) 8/6/20, 7:42 PM
well, they have the right idea of what they need to build. Lyriq looks like a compelling product.
but can they actually build it? doesn’t look like they have a near production prototype.
And they’re relying on LG chem for batteries? Let’s see when it starts production...
https://twitter.com/wholemarsblog/status/1291520004463005696
< I agree. Although it was gag-worthy at times, this was the most impressive legacy presentation to date in my opinion. I'm rooting for Cadillac! Execute!


—— Lucid Air Will Debut DreamDrive Lidar-Enhanced Autonomous Driving Suite
July 31st, 2020
Quote
Lucid is leading up to the official reveal of its first production car, the Lucid Air, on September 9. The Lucid factory is under construction in Casa Grande, Arizona and the first production cars are expected to be delivered to customers in early 2021. In an e-mail to CleanTechnica, Lucid says when the Lucid Air hits the streets, it will feature one of the most advanced autonomous driver assistance systems available from any manufacturer, including Tesla. …
https://www.thinkingport.com/2020/08/01/news-104792/

From 2017:  Lucid Air to Start at $60,000 (RWD 240 miles of range) with higher trim-level models north of $100,000
Lucid Air to Start at $60,000
https://www.caranddriver.com/news/amp15341999/lucid-air-to-start-at-60000-fancier-version-to-top-100k/


—— Nikola
Quote
ALEX (@ajtourville) 8/6/20, 11:17 AM
What Trevor Milton calls Nikola's "factory in Ulm Germany" is a building that's only 322 ft x 62 ft (20,000 sq ft)... and it's supposed to supply the entire EU market and the U.S. market with BEV Nikola Tre? ;D $NKLA
https://twitter.com/ajtourville/status/1291392989823225861

Jessica Meckmann  (@meckimac) 8/6/20, 6:27 AM

$nkla Thread time!
Recent comments made by Nikola executives @nikolatrevor and Mark Russell made me curious about the current state of their Iveco Ulm, Germany factory. Almost 3 months ago, Trevor said the Ulm factory is almost done. I therefore went digging... #nikolaTre #iveco
https://twitter.com/meckimac/status/1291319994580643840
~ this is what's written in their 10-Q:
"In 2019, we partnered with Iveco, a subsidiary of CNHI, to manufacture the Nikola Tre BEV truck at the Iveco manufacturing plant in Ulm, Germany through a JV with CNHI, which is expected to commence operations in the third quarter of 2020."
Satellite image below.  More info at the thread at the link.

Quote
ALEX  (@ajtourville) 8/5/20, 6:50 PM
According to 10-Q filing for Q2-2020, the only binding reservations are for the "up to 800 trucks" in the Anheuser-Busch contract but these are cancellable if Nikola does not fulfill its commitment regarding delivery timeline (i.e. December 31, 2021) which it won't & can't. $NKLA
https://twitter.com/ajtourville/status/1291144592461529094
< So they have to deliver 800 FCEV trucks to Anheuser-Busch by Dec 31 ‘21, but they will start production of FCEV trucks only in 2023... that’s going to work out perfectly!
Text image below.

Per Trevor Milton:  Nikola’s “vertical integration”  means getting other companies to do everything for him. 2 min. 
➡️youtu.be/brq9Cggbf04
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NeilT

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Re: Electric cars
« Reply #1783 on: August 10, 2020, 09:56:52 PM »
You have to wonder if the Nikola concept is to sell BEV trucks and then offer Hydrogen as an alternative when the BEV takes longer than expected??

This concept is the direct opposite of Tesla where they bought a facility which had actually been producing 450k FF vehicles per year and converted it to EV construction.

Personally, if it were my business, I would be looking for a deposit in escrow with a platinum plated money back guarantee if they missed deadlines.
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Sigmetnow

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Re: Electric cars
« Reply #1784 on: August 11, 2020, 04:15:40 PM »
I think Nikola just wants to out-Tesla Tesla — like Faraday Future, they are big on renderings, announcements and moving dirt — but every day they are sinking further into the well of “that isn’t going to happen.”
« Last Edit: August 11, 2020, 04:21:11 PM by Sigmetnow »
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Sigmetnow

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Re: Electric cars
« Reply #1785 on: August 11, 2020, 04:20:50 PM »
Meanwhile, Lucid actually knows what needs to be done:
“I am therefore pleased that we have consequently achieved an estimated EPA 517 miles of range today whilst also significantly reducing our battery pack’s capacity, thereby reducing vehicle weight and cost, and improving interior space. Such exceptional efficiency, achieved through in-house technology, is undeniably a measure of a true EV tech company.”

Lucid Air to top Tesla Model S with astonishing 517-mile estimated EPA range
Quote
Lucid’s upcoming all-electric luxury sedan, the Air, will boast 517 miles of battery range per single charge, making it the longest range electric vehicle in the industry.

Lucid’s range tests for the Air were secured at FEV North America, Inc. in Auburn Hills, Michigan where it conducted trial runs utilizing the EPA’s Multicycle Test Procedure (SAE J1634 Oct 2012 Standard) with the standard adjustment factor.

The results indicated that the Air would have a 745-mile city range rating and a 730-mile highway rating, giving the vehicle a 738-mile combined unadjusted range estimation. After the adjustment factor, the range was estimated to be 517 miles of EPA range, beating the Tesla Model S, which holds the current production vehicle record for the longest range at 402 miles per charge.

Rawlinson, a former Tesla Chief Engineer who worked on the Model S, has been heavily focused on the aerodynamic development of the Lucid Air. After testing the Air’s aerodynamic performance at the Windshear facility in North Carolina, it was determined that the vehicle had a drag coefficient of .21, beating the Model S (.23) and Porsche Taycan (.22).

Aerodynamic efficiency plays a key role in achieving world-beating range and performance and is particularly valuable to an EV in that it provides ‘smart range’ independent of battery pack size,” Rawlinson said in June. “So naturally, we intensively focused upon aerodynamics throughout the Lucid Air’s development.”

Range and efficiency are widely recognized as the most relevant proof points by which EV technical prowess is measured,” Rawlinson said. A few years ago, Lucid revealed that it had achieved a 400-mile range vehicle. Still, the company planned to develop and continue improving upon the foundation it had set for the Air to become the most efficient electric car on the market.

“I am therefore pleased that we have consequently achieved an estimated EPA 517 miles of range today whilst also significantly reducing our battery pack’s capacity, thereby reducing vehicle weight and cost, and improving interior space. Such exceptional efficiency, achieved through in-house technology, is undeniably a measure of a true EV tech company,” Rawlinson added.

The production version of the Air will be revealed during an online event on September 9, 2020. Information on the vehicle’s interior and exterior designs, as well as specifications, configurations, and pricing options, will also be shared during the event.
https://www.teslarati.com/lucid-air-range-517-mile-epa-estimate/amp/
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Sigmetnow

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Re: Electric cars
« Reply #1786 on: August 11, 2020, 08:25:14 PM »
The remaining question:  How big is the Lucid Air’s battery?

Quote
Lucid claims the high voltage and other improvements helped the car be so efficient, but rumor has it its battery pack will be below 130 kWh. If that is the case, it would be about 30 percent larger than the 100 kWh battery pack currently on the Model S.

Not by chance, the difference between 517 miles and 402 miles is 115 miles – or 28.6 percent more than what the Model S offers. We would not doubt if the Air's battery pack was 128.6 kWh. ...
Lucid Makes Tesla Eat Dust With Air's Estimated 517-Mile EPA Range
https://insideevs.com/news/437878/lucid-air-estimated-epa-range-517-mi/amp/
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Sigmetnow

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Re: Electric cars
« Reply #1787 on: August 12, 2020, 03:16:49 AM »
Quote
Whole Mars Catalog (@WholeMarsBlog) 8/11/20, 12:42 PM
Lucid is aiming to deliver the first Air in Spring 2021, but they note that the pandemic has delayed them somewhat.

It’s anyone’s guess who will deliver a 500 mile vehicle first: Tesla or Lucid.

i’ll put my money on Tesla personally
https://twitter.com/wholemarsblog/status/1293226234172682240

—- Edit:
How EVs are portrayed in the news:
Quote
Earl of FrunkPuppy (@28delayslater) 8/11/20, 6:01 AM
Taycan - range doesn’t matter.
Jag - range doesn’t matter
Etron - range doesn’t matter
Lucid - range is everything and this will kill tesla regardless of price / battery size
 ;D
https://twitter.com/28delayslater/status/1293125324969058304
< I love how lucid never mentions T Ξ S L A, unlike the others
Earl: Yep. They actually specifically said they are not a Tesla killer. Won’t stop the news
« Last Edit: August 12, 2020, 03:35:07 AM by Sigmetnow »
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sidd

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Re: Electric cars
« Reply #1788 on: August 12, 2020, 07:12:15 AM »
Richter at wolfstreet: Tesla lshare in european EV market plunged from 18.4% to 8.7%.

" sales over the seven-month period fell from 6,816 in 2019 through July, to 5,306 over the same period in 2020, and its share in the EV market plunged from 18.4% to 8.7%."

"three automakers that blew past it in Germany – Volkswagen Group, Renault, and Hyundai Group – while Daimler Group came in even with Tesla, and BMW group wasn’t far behind"
 
https://wolfstreet.com/2020/08/10/tesla-gets-crushed-in-germany-by-evs-from-volkswagen-renault-hyundai-group-it-woke-up-the-giants/

sidd

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Re: Electric cars
« Reply #1789 on: August 12, 2020, 02:36:16 PM »
Richter at wolfstreet: Tesla lshare in european EV market plunged from 18.4% to 8.7%.

" sales over the seven-month period fell from 6,816 in 2019 through July, to 5,306 over the same period in 2020, and its share in the EV market plunged from 18.4% to 8.7%."

"three automakers that blew past it in Germany – Volkswagen Group, Renault, and Hyundai Group – while Daimler Group came in even with Tesla, and BMW group wasn’t far behind"
 
https://wolfstreet.com/2020/08/10/tesla-gets-crushed-in-germany-by-evs-from-volkswagen-renault-hyundai-group-it-woke-up-the-giants/

sidd

I predicted that many moons ago and it will get worse for Teslas.

I still predict a buyout / take-over of some kind. Due to Elon's role in manned space transportation he won't be dropped but fed through until a potential buyer or otherwise face-keeping solution arises.

I'll be back to follow on those prediction because we have been a condescended minority in this thread.

(same applies to the covid controvery where neven is right and it will take 1-3 years until the rest will blush and have to apologize. Start to watch the ever bashed Sweden carefully over the next 8 months)
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Re: Electric cars
« Reply #1790 on: August 12, 2020, 03:24:13 PM »

I predicted that many moons ago and it will get worse for Teslas.

I still predict a buyout / take-over of some kind. Due to Elon's role in manned space transportation he won't be dropped but fed through until a potential buyer or otherwise face-keeping solution arises.

I'll be back to follow on those prediction because we have been a condescended minority in this thread.

(same applies to the covid controvery where neven is right and it will take 1-3 years until the rest will blush and have to apologize. Start to watch the ever bashed Sweden carefully over the next 8 months)

This story doesn't stack up, 
The assumption that europeans have stopped ordering Teslas when the answer could easily be Tesla are focusing on markets closer to production during the pandemic.  If once their factory in Germany is running and the number of cars being sold isnt rising to meet that production then you might have an argument.

NeilT

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Re: Electric cars
« Reply #1791 on: August 12, 2020, 07:17:44 PM »
This is a one time stat which encompasses the Fremont shutdown and the focus on local markets once it was up and running again. Fremont was closed in the critical Q2 Europe manufacturing and delivery segment.  Extremely low levels of Tesla's were actually delivered to Europe in Q2.

How much Tesla stock is sitting in Europe unsold?

Not delivering product is not the same as no market.

It is like claims Lucid will kill Tesla with a Model S competitor.  Where is Tesla making the bulk of revenue and sales? It isn't the model S or X.

Tesla demand didn't go anywhere, it just became more pent up.
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KiwiGriff

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Re: Electric cars
« Reply #1792 on: August 12, 2020, 08:08:44 PM »
Quote
Richter at wolfstreet: Tesla share in european EV market plunged from 18.4% to 8.7%.

links to German market data only .
First six months EV sales Europe.
https://thedriven.io/2020/07/31/renault-zoe-tops-model-3-and-vw-e-golf-in-europe-electric-vehicle-sales/


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Sigmetnow

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Re: Electric cars
« Reply #1793 on: August 12, 2020, 10:10:10 PM »
So in Germany, automakers are finally offering more than a tiny handful of desirable EVs.  Good!  About damn time! ;D

Not mentioned in the article:
1H2019, Tesla began mass shipping the first of its eagerly-awaited Model 3 to Europe.
1H2020, its California factory was shut down for weeks due to the pandemic.

Sales are still production-limited, not demand limited. :)
Globally, Tesla is still Number 1 — and by a large margin, if you are only counting pure EVs.  Tesla has definitely not been “crushed.” ;)
World’s Top 5 Plug-In EV Automotive Groups Ranked By Sales In H1 2020
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Tesla remains #1 by a significant margin among plug-ins and is a dominant player in the BEV category.

With the first half of 2020 already behind us, let's check which automotive groups are selling the most plug-in electric cars and all-electric cars globally.

The total volume in H1 2020 amounted to about 950,000 and more than two-thirds (close to 643,000) were all-electric cars - according to EV Sales Blog.

Plug-ins (BEV+PHEvs)
The top company by sales volume among groups is Tesla with 179,050 sales, which also has expanded its market share in the overall plug-in car market from 14% a year ago to 19%!
However, the Volkswagen Group is moving fast using many of its brands and is currently #2 with 124,018 and 13% market share.
The biggest change compared to the top 5 in 2019 is the absence of Chinese groups: BYD, Geely Group and BAIC. They disappeared in Q1 2020 rank and did not manage to return yet.

Plug-in car sales in H1 2020:
   1   Tesla: 179,050 (19% share)
   2   Volkswagen Group: 124,018 (13% share)

   3   Renault-Nissan-Mitsubishi Alliance: 84,501 (9% share)
   4   BMW Group: 68,503 (7% share)
   5   Hyundai Motor Group (Hyundai, Kia): 63,731 (7% share)
Top 5 total: 519,803 (54.7% share)
others: 430,273 (45.3% share)
Total: 950,076

Battery-electric only (BEV)
Once we subtract plug-in hybrids from the equation, the top five changes a lot, as Tesla's position improved to a dominant 28% share!
Then we see the Renault-Nissan-Mitsubishi Alliance, slightly ahead of the Volkswagen Group - both with a 10% market share.
All-electric car sales in H1 2020:
   1   Tesla: 179,050 (28% share)
   2   Renault-Nissan-Mitsubishi Alliance: 65,521 (10% share)
   3   Volkswagen Group: 64,542 (10% share)

   4   BYD: 46,554 (7% share)
   5   Hyundai Motor Group (Hyundai, Kia): 43,689 (7% share)
Top 5 total: 399,356 (62.1% share)
others: 243,621 (37.9% share)
Total: 642,977
https://insideevs.com/news/437156/world-top-ev-automotive-groups-sales-h1-2020/amp/
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Re: Electric cars
« Reply #1794 on: August 12, 2020, 10:55:23 PM »
Tesla makes European cars typically in the first half of a quarter so that they can be shipped and delivered before the end of the quarter. In Q2 Freemont was closed for the first 6 weeks and they had only about 3 weeks to make cars for Europe. Almost all the cars were delivered before the end of June and there was little left for July.

The first shipment of Model 3s in Q3 arrived to Europe on August 5. There are currently three more ships on route and more coming later. So the sales should pick up in August, and September should be a typical end of quarter month (15k-20k Model 3s).

NeilT

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Re: Electric cars
« Reply #1795 on: Today at 09:03:21 AM »
In many ways it is not even worth talking about these stats.  The Zoe factory has a capacity per year that will be exceeded by Tesla in 1q within 6 months.  The Zoe has sold 300k vehicles in Europe, ever! The eGolf is not the VW main EV and the stats mask the Id.3 catastrophe.

Giga Berlin will produce 500k vehicles per year by end 21 and a total capacity of 2m vehicles.

This kind of news will have a very short shelf life but nobody will go back and call it out for what it was 6 months from now.

That is the whole problem.  If the purveyor of this "news" was ridiculed constantly for the next 6 months they might actually be a bit more careful with how they present their "truth" next time.
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