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swoozle

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Re: Electric cars
« Reply #350 on: August 11, 2019, 05:13:54 PM »

So, you have electric ovens?  Electric clothes driers?  Those use the very same type of circuits as a Tesla wall charger.  And there they are, inside your apartment!  Your neighbors powering them up, every day! :o ;D

Your tinfoil hat has slipped down over your eyes.  The utility room of your building is constantly running more power than multiple Tesla superchargers. 

...

+1

TerryM -> /ignore

crandles

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Re: Electric cars
« Reply #351 on: August 11, 2019, 05:21:53 PM »
"Best way to stop a bad guy with a gun is to have a good guy with a gun" is absolutely crazy.

A bad, but sensible, guy with a gun knows it is not sensible to go on a wild murder spree.

So, the problem is not bad guys with guns but mad guys with guns.

To stop mad guys getting guns the sensible reactions are to introduce checks on people buying guns and to reduce the number of guns held by the general public.

How can something this simple be so totally obscured in the U.S. (presumably by politics and gun lobby)?

Tor Bejnar

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Re: Electric cars
« Reply #352 on: August 11, 2019, 08:26:26 PM »
Sensibility is also obscured by the American Constitution's 2nd Amendment, which, as currently interpreted by the US Supreme Court, ignores the 'A well regulated militia being necessary to the security of a free state' leading phrase.  But the amendment is poorly written, so who knows what the founders intended? :'( 

Maybe having an over-armed citizenry necessitates the militia to be well regulated!  That must be it!  :P ::) :-\ :(
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blumenkraft

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Re: Electric cars
« Reply #353 on: August 11, 2019, 08:30:41 PM »
Well said, Tor.
“You are not entitled to your opinion. You are entitled to your informed opinion. No one is entitled to be ignorant.”

TerryM

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Re: Electric cars
« Reply #354 on: August 11, 2019, 11:01:12 PM »
...
Prof Keeling wouldn't have any problems with my building. 100% electric and no coal or ff used to generate it. We're mainly retirees who haven't driven to work for decades.

Terry

So, you have electric ovens?  Electric clothes driers?  Those use the very same type of circuits as a Tesla wall charger.  And there they are, inside your apartment!  Your neighbors powering them up, every day! :o ;D

Your tinfoil hat has slipped down over your eyes.  The utility room of your building is constantly running more power than multiple Tesla superchargers. 

“Wall chargers” are no more dangerous than the common appliances you have throughout your building.  In fact, they are nothing more than a fancy plug, and are not required at all.  EVs can, and do, plug into normal household outlets, without any special equipment. 


Edit:
Quote
What's your electrical mix?
This is not about my home (nearby hydro, and personal solar; thanks) or your home.  It’s about you preventing other people from reducing their many other GHG emissions, which is more important.


I'm sorry if I gave the impression that I have some fear of heavy wiring.


I spent decades selling, installing and maintaining the 440 v HVAC behemoths the size of a rail car that cool Las Vegas Casino's during those scorching summers.


It's not "wall chargers" that constitute a problem, it's the explosive exothermic lithium batteries that Tesla has chosen to use that repeatedly and justifiably grab the headlines.


The problem is not in the walls or utility rooms. The problem is on the road, in parking facilities - in fact anywhere that a loaded Tesla might be found.


Terry

Sigmetnow

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Re: Electric cars
« Reply #355 on: August 12, 2019, 03:37:33 AM »
...
It's not "wall chargers" that constitute a problem, it's the explosive exothermic lithium batteries that Tesla has chosen to use that repeatedly and justifiably grab the headlines.

The problem is not in the walls or utility rooms. The problem is on the road, in parking facilities - in fact anywhere that a loaded Tesla might be found.

Terry

So you must be quaking in terror at all the ICE vehicles in your parking garage — which are 48 times more likely to catch fire than a Tesla!!

FACTS:
Per news reports, there have been ~20 Tesla fires, w/ 10Billion+ miles driven, or 2 fires/Billion miles.
From 2003-07, ICE vehicles drove 2,980B miles/year & there were 287K fires/year, or 96 fires/Bn miles.
   =  48X more likely to have a fire in an ICE car vs. a Tesla.
https://twitter.com/anonyx10/status/1123086001402937345

Put another way, Teslas are approx. ~98% *LESS LIKELY* to catch fire vs. ICE vehicles!
Notes: Fire incidence on a per-mile driven basis, per National Fire Prevention Association (NFPA) data on ICE vehicle fires from 2003-07 vs. reported Tesla fires vs. cumulative miles driven to date.
https://twitter.com/anonyx10/status/1123085999922454528

Quote
From 2012 – 2018, there has been approximately one Tesla vehicle fire for every 170 million miles traveled. By comparison, data from the National Fire Protection Association (NFPA) and U.S. Department of Transportation shows that in the United States there is a vehicle fire for every 19 million miles traveled.

In order to provide an apt comparison to NFPA data, Tesla’s data set includes instances of vehicle fires caused by structure fires, arson, and other things unrelated to the vehicle, which account for about 15% of Tesla vehicle fires over this time period.
https://www.tesla.com/VehicleSafetyReport

NFPA report - Vehicle fire trends and patterns
https://www.nfpa.org/News-and-Research/Data-research-and-tools/ARCHIVED/Fire-statistics/Vehicle-fires/Vehicle-fire-trends-and-patterns

Interesting statistic:  despite all the Model 3 on the roads, there has never been a Model 3 battery fire ... not one!

——
Meanwhile, ICE cars are spontaneously combusting all over the place:

Hyundai and Kia recall 500,000 cars that could randomly catch fire
https://www.consumeraffairs.com/news/hyundai-and-kia-recall-500000-cars-that-could-randomly-catch-fire-030419.html

BMW Widens Recall of Vehicles With Fire Risk to 1.6 Million Cars
https://www.bloomberg.com/amp/news/articles/2018-10-23/bmw-expands-recall-of-vehicles-risk-of-fire-to-1-6-million-cars

South Korea to ban some BMW vehicles over engine fires
https://www.bbc.com/news/amp/business-45191874?__twitter_impression=true

April 2018: Los Angeles Times:  Audi recalls 1.2 million cars and SUVs because of fire risk
https://twitter.com/icannot_enough/status/1128736688195424256

 GM just recalled 364,000 pickup trucks for faulty engine block wiring that can lead to spontaneous fires from short circuits. 5 fires already reported — more than Tesla, yet not widely reported. Why? gmauthority.com/blog/2019/05/g…
https://twitter.com/jwoods_57/status/1130206911800832002

From 3/2017:  Global recall of 1 million Mercedes cars over fire risk 'could include 75,000 in UK'
https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2017/03/04/global-recall-1-million-mercedes-cars-fire-risk-could-include/

“Combustion” — it’s right there in the name!

Tesla set fire to a Powerpack to test its safety features - the results are impressive
https://electrek.co/2016/12/19/tesla-fire-powerpack-test-safety/
« Last Edit: August 12, 2019, 03:46:39 AM by Sigmetnow »
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Archimid

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Re: Electric cars
« Reply #356 on: August 12, 2019, 03:58:36 AM »
Terry, have you looked up the fire statistics for your Passat?
I am an energy reservoir seemingly intent on lowering entropy for self preservation.

KiwiGriff

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Re: Electric cars
« Reply #357 on: August 12, 2019, 05:33:22 AM »
Good question Archimid so I googled it.
vw fire passat
First page
Quote
Volkswagen Passat Recalls Concern Possible Fires - Recall Masters
https://www.recallmasters.com/volkswagen-passat-recalls-concern-possible-fires/
Apr 26, 2019 - Auburn Hills, MI — April 26, 2016 — In an action unrelated to previous diesel emissions Volkswagen recalls, the manufacturer is focusing on ...
Volkswagen Recalls Passat for Fire Risk - Safety & Accident ...
https://www.automotive-fleet.com/140614/volkswagen-recalls-passat-for-fire-risk-1
May 24, 2017 - Volkswagen Group of America is recalling 84,262 2012- to 2014-model year Passat sedans, each equipped with a diesel engine and a ...
Our Volkswagen Passat caught fire because of electrical issues - can ...
https://www.honestjohn.co.uk/.../our-volkswagen-passat-caught-fire-because-of-electri...
1 answer
Oct 27, 2017 - If you bought the car within six months from the dealer who has been attempting to fix it then yes, you could attempt to reject it. But if it is worth ...
VW Passat being investigated for fires | Autoblog
https://www.autoblog.com/2007/05/17/vw-passat-being-investigated-for-fires/
May 17, 2007 - Boy, that's one hot car, that Passat. But is it so hot, in fact, that it self-immolates? The NHTSA seems to think that the ignition coil packs are ...
Report: NHTSA reopens probe into VW Passat engine fires | Autoblog
https://www.autoblog.com/.../report-nhtsa-reopens-probe-into-vw-passat-engine-fires/
Aug 4, 2010 - The fifth-generation (1996-2005) Volkswagen Passat was always a bit of a problem child for the German automakers and its vehicle owners.
U.S. probes VW Passat again for engine compartment fires
https://www.autonews.com/.../u-s-probes-vw-passat-again-for-engine-compartment-fir...
Aug 3, 2010 - Volkswagen's Passat for 2002-03 is under investigation by federal regulators for the second time in three years after identical complaints about ...
2016 Volkswagen Jetta, Passat and Golf Recalled for Fire Risk ...
https://www.edmunds.com › Car News
Jul 5, 2016 - Volkswagen Group of America is recalling 55 2016 Volkswagen Jetta, Passat and Golf cars because of a fire risk, according to the National ...
Volkswagen Passat under investigation for ignition failure, fires ...
https://www.torquenews.com/.../volkswagen-passat-under-investigation-ignition-failur...
Feb 2, 2011 - The National Highway Traffic Safety Administration has announced an investigation of certain Volkswagen Passat sedans and wagons over ...
Passat = four wheeled ronson .

TerryM

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Re: Electric cars
« Reply #358 on: August 12, 2019, 01:15:38 PM »
I've no doubt that the statistics you each provided are accurate. Accurate, but in effect cherry picked.
All automotive fires are not equal.


I'm sure you are both familiar with the fire that immolated the driver when his Tesla crashed head first into a guard rail in California while his auto pilot was engaged. I believe that the lawsuit has just started/is about to start.


The reason I brought this up is that IIRC it was eventually extinguished, then reignited while being towed, and again at least once in the storage yard. The alarmed fire department contacted Tesla and others in their attempts to learn how to control such virulent fires.
Lots of photos and video of the event not because it was a Tesla, but because of the ferocity of the fire(s).


I've mentioned experiencing 2 automotive fires myself. Both in the same vehicle, but neither doing any damage to anything other than my peace of mind.
These fires count statistically as an "automotive fire", but it's difficult to compare this to a Tesla Battery Fire.


I believe that it's true that as to date no Model 3's have self ignited - does this indicate that there is something wrong with the design of the other models, or is it that the Model 3 batteries haven't yet aged to the extent that they're they're suffering from this problem.


I'm not a fire phobe - I've only once exited the building when the fire alarm sounded. (by chance that was the only time that a fire was actually present) - that said I don't even want to park beside a Tesla.


VW apparently voluntarily recalled some of the early Passats because of the possibility of ignition fires. This seems a reasonable response - when will Mr. Musk act?


I can assure you that my Passat has never been subject to such a recall, and that those vehicles that might have been flagged as having potential problems have been repaired, probably some years ago.


Tesla has a financial interest in distributing biased data. Whenever re-posting it's incumbent on you as ethical Tesla advocates to be cognizant of this and to not re-post questionable statistics.
Terry

DrTskoul

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Re: Electric cars
« Reply #359 on: August 12, 2019, 01:20:29 PM »
A runaway battery fire is not the same as gasoline and oil fire and cannot be put out the same way. Firefighting foam does not work with batteries. It needs copious amounts of water to cool the battery down before the reaction can be stopped.

Sigmetnow

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Re: Electric cars
« Reply #360 on: August 12, 2019, 02:32:42 PM »
Quote
VW apparently voluntarily recalled some of the early Passats because of the possibility of ignition fires. This seems a reasonable response - when will Mr. Musk act?

Already done!  Tesla has already sent an OTA update to restrict charging on the older Model S versions that data showed had a higher risk.  The government has not even recommended a recall, but Tesla took steps proactively.

Meanwhile, how long did it take VW to recall the Passats?  How many are out there that have not yet been fixed?  Consider the hundred of thousands of recalled ICE cars still driving around with their defects, that park in your building evey day.  That’s where your risk is.

You cite bad Tesla fires — which happened in extreme crashes that would have destroyed an ICE car (and likely killed its occupants) — not in parking garages.  But the majority of Tesla fires occur long after the occupants have safely exited the car —- and done so under their own power, due to the remarkable crash safety of a Tesla.

Think of all those government safety assessment crash videos, from multiple institutions and government bodies, over many years.  Did any of the Teslas catch fire when smashed to pieces?  No.  And that’s the experience of most people on the road.
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Archimid

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Re: Electric cars
« Reply #361 on: August 12, 2019, 02:37:42 PM »
Battery fires are indeed different from combustion fires.

Jedi Master Rich Rebuilds over at you tube had a mishap with a Tesla battery pack. I highly recommend this video to get an idea of what Thermal Runaway looks like.

Please remember this is a battery module outside of it's protective battery pack and without a BMS.

I am an energy reservoir seemingly intent on lowering entropy for self preservation.

Sigmetnow

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Re: Electric cars
« Reply #362 on: August 12, 2019, 02:39:30 PM »
“Well over 20,000” reservations at €2,500 apiece.   
Top-line first production price thought to be around $120k.  Perhaps a version as low as $60k later?
Aluminum and carbon fiber body.  Lithium-ion battery. Does lots of launches, if that’s your thing. Two charge ports.  Two-speed transmission.

Porsche Taycan debut set for September 4, top facts about upcoming sports EV emerge
https://www.teslarati.com/porsche-taycan-turbo-debut-top-facts-tesla-rival-video/
Video at the link. 


Edit:
From February:  “... strong demand has reportedly encouraged the veteran carmaker to raise the Taycan’s initial target production from 20,000 units per year to 40,000.”

Porsche is investing heavily in its Taycan workforce, 1,500 new jobs expected
https://www.teslarati.com/porsche-taycan-production-ramp-workforce-30k/
« Last Edit: August 12, 2019, 03:10:51 PM by Sigmetnow »
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crandles

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Re: Electric cars
« Reply #363 on: August 12, 2019, 02:56:02 PM »
Joke candles that relight themselves after being blown out is an example of a fire that relights itself.

'Ferocity' and 'explosive' are not terms that I would use or particularly associate with such an event. Such terms seem much more suited to gasoline fires than to fires that relight themselves. So why are you using such terms in relation to EV batteries as if they are worse than gasoline fires?

Yes I am pushing things with relighting candle - yes a EV battery fire is more serious.

Certainly true that
"All automotive fires are not equal."

Some are not at all serious while a battery fire seems likely to be at least a write off. But we can say the same of ICE vehicles: some not at all serious but if you start doing damage to the engine or have an explosion, seems likely to be at least a write off.

Is there anything to suggest that fires with EV are more likely or more serious? If you don't have anything, should you be pushing this as an argument against EVs?

Archimid

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Re: Electric cars
« Reply #364 on: August 12, 2019, 03:11:26 PM »
The difference between thermal runaway and combustion is nuanced.

Fuels need an ignition source. Without it they can withstand quite hot temperatures before ignition happens. But once the fire starts it instantly spreads and it burns until all fuel is consumed or it is put out. Often cutting off oxygen is enough to put out fires. Over the years many ways of putting out combustion fires have been developed.

Batteries burn by thermal runaway. Thermal runaway is difficult to get going, like ignition, but once it gets going it is very difficult to put out. Submersion seems in water seems to be a possible solution. As more EVs hit the road solutions will emerge.

The advantage of battery fires is that from the moment thermal runaway starts until it becomes a serious fire several minutes may elapse, giving some time for the passengers to get away. Fuel fires are can spread very fast if containment is breached.

Also things like the battery pack and BMS buys the vehicle occupants time. Time is more often that not the name of the game.
I am an energy reservoir seemingly intent on lowering entropy for self preservation.

TerryM

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Re: Electric cars
« Reply #365 on: August 12, 2019, 07:24:28 PM »
^^
The above is a fair synopsis in my opinion.
There has been at least one case of a battery fire (thermal runaway) in which the driver (some actress's husband) had time to safely stop the car and exit before the drivers compartment was affected.
I believe Tesla replaced the vehicle without being ordered to, and this was a reasonable action by the manufacturer.
Terry

Sigmetnow

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Re: Electric cars
« Reply #366 on: August 13, 2019, 01:37:42 AM »
Cathy Why (@kawikatt) 8/11/19, 8:09 PM
Just found this on my @Tesla Model 3. So sweet and true and thoughtful. Omg I’m still crying. ...
https://twitter.com/kawikatt/status/1160704766860619776
Photos below.

See:  @evthankyou on Twitter
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oren

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Re: Electric cars
« Reply #367 on: August 13, 2019, 05:03:20 PM »
In the spirit of Terry's calculations of the cost of charging an EV per mile, Electrek has examined other US charging networks and found them not ideal, so to speak.

https://electrek.co/2019/08/12/kwh-pricing-ev-drivers-miss-benefits/

30 states allow kWh pricing, but non-Tesla EV drivers mostly miss benefits

Quote
North Carolina is now the 30th state to allow public EV charging companies to offer pricing by the kilowatt-hour (kWh), instead of charging per minute. The change was thanks to bipartisan legislation — House Bill 329, Renewable Energy Amendments — passed by the legislature and signed by Gov. Roy Cooper.

The vast majority of Americans now live and drive in places where private companies are free to set up EV charging stations and offer pricing for actual kWh delivered to the vehicle. Tesla calls billing by the kWh “the most fair and simple method.” Any EV driver would agree, as all sorts of factors including the weather affect the speed an EV will charge at, making per-minute pricing something of a crapshoot as opposed to how many kWh (like ‘gallons of gas’) was actually delivered.

So why isn’t kWh pricing more common?
There are four major players in public EV charging in the US, with three different business models, but only Tesla has a stated preference for kWh pricing, which they list at $0.28 per kWh in the United States (but this seems to be a maximum, with some states paying less. Update: a user says they pay $0.30/kWh at an urban Tesla Supercharger in downtown Chicago. What do you pay? Comment below).

The other three leading networks are Chargepoint, EVgo, and Electrify America, which all offer direct-current fast-charging (“DCFC”) stations with CCS / Chademo type connectors.

Chargepoint’s business model is unique, as they don’t own the stations in their network, but rather partner with 3rd party site-hosts (property owners) and leave the pricing formula up to the private site-host. Chargepoint supports pricing per-kWh as it gives their charger-owners more flexibility. Notably, in the Mid-Atlantic, gas station chain Royal Farms partnered with Chargepoint, and they offer the same $0.28 per kWh pricing as Tesla.

Electrify America and EVgo both own and operate their charging networks, and set their own pricing.

EVgo, with DCFC chargers (almost all offering speeds at a max of 50kW) in 34 states, says that they are “the nation’s largest and most reliable public fast-charging network.” In most of the country, EVgo prices are at $0.30/per-minute for their 50kW stations, and a few cents less if you sign up for their $8/month plan that also includes 29 free minutes.

Electrify America says that they “offer the largest number of public, high-powered, fast-charging stations on the market” with 140 stations (offering speeds up to 350kW) across the country as of April 2019. Their pricing is especially convoluted, however. Instead of a flat per-minute rate like EVgo, Electrify America’s per-minute rate is billed simply based on what model of EV you plug-in, regardless of how much power is actually delivered.

If your EV is theoretically capable of accepting speeds over 125kW (almost all Teslas), then in California you pay an outlandish $0.99 / min. If your EV’s max kW rate is between 76-125kW, then you pay $0.69 / min, and if your max speed is 75kW or less, then you pay $0.25 / min. There is also a $1 session fee on top of the per-minute rate. In New York, the rates are slightly lower: $0.89 / $0.58 / $0.21 per-minute respectively.

Hyundai Kona and Kia Niro EV users have been particularly startled by Electrify America’s pricing scheme, as their theoretical max-rates are just above the 75kW. Even though they charge at speeds below 75kW for the entirety or almost all of their session, every minute is billed at the mid-tier rate ranging from $0.69 – $0.58. Electrify America does not offer its customers the option to cap the kW speed at a lower tier to benefit from cheaper pricing, nor do any EVs allow their drivers to cap their own direct-current charge rate.

How do these per-minute rates compare?
First, some context:

In the United States, the average cost per-kWh is $0.14 for residential, for commercial $0.13, for industrial $0.07, and for the transportation sector it’s $0.09.
A 2015 U.S. Department of Energy report pegged the installation cost of a 50kW DCFC station at $4,000-$51,000, and their survey showed a typical electricity cost of $0.10/kWh. The report did discuss how demand chargers can increase this rate for some operators, but did not provide any general data.
Converting per-minute to per-kWh rates is hard because of all the factors that can slow down charging, but EVgo’s $0.30 per minute will equal roughly $0.41 / kWh under ideal conditions. EV drivers report charging sessions that cost them much, much more, especially at Electrify America, with over $0.60/kWh even when quitting charging below 80% state-of-charge (when significant kW speed tapering occurs).

A used Prius can easily get 90 miles with just 2 gallons of gas. So with gas at $3/gallon, your 90 miles cost you $6.

To travel 90 miles, a typical EV will consume 25kWh. Under ideal conditions at EVgo, your 90 miles will cost $10.25. But if you drive a Hyundai Kona and it’s wintertime, you could easily pay 3x the cost of gasoline.

A very simplistic, rough rule (to retain some context): fueling up an EV at $0.25-0.30/kWh is roughly equivalent to buying the same range as a typical hybrid would get at $3.00 per gallon.

If you’re fueling up at Electrify America’s middle price-tier, you’ll pay approximately $22 for 30 minutes which would fuel the typical EV with 22-30 kWh, paying upwards of $1.00/kWh. That’s $22 to drive 90 miles in your EV, more expensive than driving a Chevy Tahoe (~$16 in gas at $3.00 per gallon).

Broader implications
Utilities are also looking to get into the public charging business as well. They’re meeting a lot of opposition, but when they are successful, they are able to convince regulators that it would be a bad thing to undercut the private market, and so we’re seeing regulators sign off on utility EV charging pricing untethered to the actual cost of delivery. A scary precedent.

And while most Americans can currently charge at home off their utility-regulated pricing around $0.14/kWh, many cannot. If people face public charging pricing that is a factor of 3-4 times higher than home charging, and double to triple the cost of gasoline, they are unlikely to buy an EV. Alternatively, it will push people to seek housing where they can charge at home, which runs counter to every city’s desire for greater urban housing density and less sprawl.

Electrek’s Take
Maybe take the Tahoe? We cannot think of any justification for pricing per-minute when per-kWh is allowed. Well-meaning people who aren’t passionate EV enthusiasts are learning the hard way that despite the general view, fueling an EV can be far more expensive than filling up an ICE car. They’re telling their friends about the hard lessons learned, and this is slowing down EV adoption.

When you go to the gas station, the price per gallon is very prominently displayed, and a gas pump conveys nothing but certainty as to how much energy you’ve procured and how much you owe. Gas pumps are regulated and audited to make sure people are paying precisely the advertised amount for the energy they purchase.

If demand charges are really entirely to blame for the 4-8x cost we’re seeing over typical utility-customer rates, then we deserve a public explanation. At a minimum, Electrify America should offer its customers the option to charge at the lower tiers. Governments and utility commissions are already providing subsidies to EV charging networks, so they should justify the per-minute pricing ratepayers and taxpayers have subsidized.

Sigmetnow

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Re: Electric cars
« Reply #368 on: August 13, 2019, 09:44:04 PM »
More on North Carolina’s new law, and... politics.  There are several related links at the bottom of the article.

N.C. charging stations can now sell by the kilowatt-hour instead of minute
Quote
...the new law has backing from Cooper, a Democrat, and nearly every member of the Republican-controlled General Assembly. But it comes amid controversy over other electric vehicle proposals.

A power struggle between Cooper and lawmakers threatens the state’s share of the Volkswagen settlement, which is poised to deliver nearly $14 million for electric vehicle charging infrastructure over the next decade.

Duke Energy, meanwhile, is bidding to spend $76 million to almost double the public plug-in outlets across the state, a move now before state regulators that critics worry will overwhelm the market.

Autumn Proudlove, senior manager of policy research at the Clean Energy Technology Center, said other states who’ve exempted charging stations from public utility regulations have also begun wrestling with some of these “more nuanced questions.”  But she said the exemption itself appears noncontroversial, and it offers at least some certainty to charging station owners and operators. “It provides a nice starting point for everyone,” she said. ...
https://energynews.us/2019/08/08/southeast/n-c-charging-stations-can-now-sell-by-the-kilowatt-hour-instead-of-minute/
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Ken Feldman

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Re: Electric cars
« Reply #369 on: August 13, 2019, 10:37:34 PM »
Companies that supply parts to the auto manufacturers are making the switch to electric powertrains.

https://cleantechnica.com/2019/08/12/continental-refocuses-powertrain-division-on-electric-spins-off-as-new-company/

Quote
Global automotive supplier and solution company Continental’s Powertrain division is embracing the future and going all-in on e-mobility with a specific focus on electrified powertrains.

The news comes as the entire global luxury combustion vehicle market is crashing, driven by a sharp uptick in sales of electric vehicles in the segment. “Our customers are increasingly turning to the electrification of drive systems, so we are concentrating systematically on this area,” Continental’s Powertrain CEO Andreas Wolf said.

Sigmetnow

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Re: Electric cars
« Reply #370 on: August 14, 2019, 01:48:46 AM »
Companies that supply parts to the auto manufacturers are making the switch to electric powertrains.
...

”Continental’s powertrain division is already one of the only companies providing end to end electrified powertrain solutions...”

Go, Continental! — I mean, Vitesco. :)  Please help the clueless ICE companies transition to EVs.
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Tom_Mazanec

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Re: Electric cars
« Reply #371 on: August 14, 2019, 02:49:55 AM »
How EVs could help Colorado meet its carbon goals and save the average Coloradan $600.00/year to boot:
https://www.vox.com/energy-and-environment/2019/8/12/20801602/colorado-electric-vehicles-2019-renewable-energy
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TerryM

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Re: Electric cars
« Reply #372 on: August 14, 2019, 08:56:04 AM »
^^  Jeez oren ^^


Cheaper to drive a Chevy Tahoe Pick-up than an EV when paying by the min!


Then they have the audacity to back up their claims with math!

Seems as though my $.28/kWh was not a high cost for a Freeway Chargeup, but was far less expensive than the pay per min. outfits featured in this article.

Perhaps, as Sig has repeatedly suggested, I should re-do my calculations using the much higher, but much more honest figures available for Tesla. Perhaps Fred over at Electrek will pick up the gauntlet?

At the moment I'm inclined to believe that the results will be too dependent on the make-up of the grid to be meaningful. Fueling up in (pristine?)Toronto will give very different outcomes than fueling from the coal fired grid of Warsaw.


Perhaps some of our more math & spreadsheet competent brethren could tackle even more aspects of EV ownership? (gerontocrat and his spreadsheet showing how far the average families meter will move if their driving habits don't change when they switch to home charged EVs makes one hell of a fine example)

Does purchasing and holding a new Tesla Model 3 make sense financially?
If ~$50k will keep a Mod. 3 on the road for 10 years, is sinking $5k/an into private transportation the best possible use for the money?

Would investing $50k in a PV / battery storage system over a 10 year period have a similar payoff?
Would growing shade trees, converting to xeriscaping, painting your roof white, building an attached greenhouse, capturing rainwater, sticking low solar film on south facing windows, changing to passive electrostatic air filters, attic vents, setting back/up your thermostat, eating pork instead of beef, growing a few vegetables, growing ivy on southern walls, going to bed an hour earlier, remaining a one child family, doubling, then re-doubling attic insulation, give more bang for the buck?

We (I) don't know because some are hitched so tightly to Musk's EV wagon that spending money on other green projects in lieu of private transportation isn't examined at all.

Transportation is important, but in the US it's responsible for what, ~27% of our carbon budget, and private vehicles are but a subset of transportation. Traveling by bike or bus even once a week might be better than investing in an EV as a second car. Moving closer to your work might save more from your transportation budget than commuting by EV.
Rethinking transportation by considering whether a private car is a sensible under certain circumstances - does jogging to the gym make more sense than driving there? Is driving little Johnny to school better than having walk or bus with his classmates, really?

EVs are here, and at least as long as they're mandated or subsidized they'll be around.

Who needs one - no one, we all survived before they became a "thing" :)
Who benefits - electrical generators, electrical distributors, electrical purveyors specifically for EV consumption. ;)
Who gets hurt - Electrical motors, transformers, generators and chargers generate low level ozone, the stuff that gives us smog! :-\
I know that trees, tires, asthmatic children and frail oldsters don't like ozone - but we all know that ICE produces even more ozone, or at least we know that they emit more visible smog. :-\

Those that rely on highway maintenance funds being provided for by taxes on gasoline and diesel fuel get hurt. No ff usage, no dipping into general taxes, no taxing EVs - and soon our bridges, overpasses and tunnels collapse - it's not as though we were on top of this before EV's pulled the funding.

EV's are already expensive. EV's without subsidies, without cheap electricity and without a free ride on the nations infrastructure are even more expensive. :(

All those faded white lines and unclear lane markings that Tesla complains of are going to become increasingly faded - increasingly unclear until Tesla drivers begin paying for their upkeep.

I don't want EVs to suddenly disappear from our roadways. I also don't want them wandering about with no one behind the wheel, but that's a different discussion.
If I noted one beside an open slot in a parking lot I might move on to another open slot - again a different discussion.

I also don't want to see the last of the ICE vehicles on our highways. I've been in a country where horses fueled up by chewing up the highway median's grass  - it works during an emergency, but it's not what the infrastructure was designed for.

When a glass roofed EV sits in the desert sun beside the "World's Biggest Thermometer" you know that a lot of fuel is being used, or that we'll be able to cook eggs on the front seats before sitting down.

When the fragile bumper of a Tesla has filled with kilos of frozen slush outside of Sudbury, and there are hundreds of miles to go before we sleep, we know this isn't the conditions this car was designed for. No one as yet has seen how the latest, greatest, self driving system reacts to snow on the road - or snow in the air.
Batteries don't react well to what a Californian might consider to be extreme cold - in Sudbury it's just January weather. Bad Old Batteries react Badly, unfortunately Good New Batteries don't do so well either - something about Physics, or so they claim.

Batteries don't react well to extreme heat either - but then what does?

I see EV's as fair weather friends, fine for short hops in "nice" weather, but not yet ready for long hauls in sub prime conditions.
Possibly acceptable for a second car, but not yet ready for prime time.
Terry

Stephen

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Re: Electric cars
« Reply #373 on: August 14, 2019, 09:30:02 AM »
.......
When the fragile bumper of a Tesla has filled with kilos of frozen slush outside of Sudbury, and there are hundreds of miles to go before we sleep, we know this isn't the conditions this car was designed for. No one as yet has seen how the latest, greatest, self driving system reacts to snow on the road - or snow in the air.....
.....
Terry
....

Why do you need to conflate the issues of self-driving cars with EVs?  They are totally separate.  You can have your fully manual EV if you wish and the big mfrs like BMW, Merc, Mazda all offer some kind of AI/self-driving tech in their ICE models.
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oren

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Re: Electric cars
« Reply #374 on: August 14, 2019, 09:41:03 AM »
Terry, some points:
Tesla's per-minute pricing (where it is forced by law to price by the minute) is much lower than EVGo and Electrify America, and I believe boils down to less than Tesla's own per-kwh pricing.

If you can do with public transportation, best not buy an EV. But not everyone is a retiree in an urban center. If you're going to buy a car anyway, then paying $40k for a Tesla could be cheaper than paying $30k for an ICE. It all depends on the alternatives and the usage scenario.
Yet even if it costs a littls bit more over 10 years, it's worth it because you would avoid a lot of emissions.
If it costs much more to own the Tesla rather than an ICE, then maybe you are better off investing in solar+battery system instead, avoiding other emissions (and assuming your neighbours aren't irrationally afraid of batteries and will call local politicians to bother you). Or invest the money in other ways that reduce emissions, some of which you listed.
But if you can afford both, I recommend you get both and all of the above.
Of course, use your spare time to lobby the local and national government to get E buses and start a free public service. These solutions are not mutually exclusive, you can have a one child family with shade trees and a greenhouse AND an EV. Unless you are so hitched to Musk's personality and occasional lies and shoddy marketing that you cannot see the EV's advantages over ICE.

I'm not sure if you are aware, but gasoline taxes are supposed to cover the health costs associated with pollution, not the road infrastructure. This is why EVs get a "free ride" - because they spare the old, sick, young, asthmatic and so on. If you're gonna tax by road damage, which I think is a fine idea, you should start by taxing per mile on the odometer rather than by the gallon, and charge heavy trucks 90%-99% of the total tax, as theirs is the most damage to the roads.
I am also not sure if you are aware, but Tesla owners drive their cars in Canada and Norway and other snowy places just fine. Yes, even in winter. Yes, even when snow falls from the sky.

TerryM

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Re: Electric cars
« Reply #375 on: August 14, 2019, 10:38:47 AM »
oren
In most jurisdictions "fuel tax" is tagged for road maintenance/repair. There's usually a stink when funds get sucked off for other purposes.


KWh pricing is the only fair way to charge for transportation electricity. It should be regulated just as gas and diesel pumps are regulated and inspected. I don't expect the electrical providers to act responsibly, but tough regulations can protect the public from the unscrupulous.


Any insight on how power for EVs is billed in your or neighboring countries?


Decades ago some less than scrupulous truckers were known to fill their tanks with heating oil as opposed to #2 diesel.  ::) Many states avoided these problems and the linked problem of purchasing fuel in a neighboring jurisdiction with lower taxes by charging for the number of miles driven at a rate dependent on the number of axles.


A similar scheme will be fair to all, and will be easy enough to manage thanks to EV computers and will provide proper road maintenance. (because taxes are always fairly and equitably collected and properly distributed) :)
Terry


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CROSSPOST EX ELECTRIC CARS !
« Reply #376 on: August 14, 2019, 02:27:23 PM »
GERMANY (as predicted)

Electric car registrations July 2019
In the ranks behind the winner's podium Audi's new E-Tron passed the Model 3. Tesla's new registrations are still subject to high fluctuations due to the delivery situation. In the previous month more than twice as many Model 3 were registered for the first time. Nevertheless, the smallest Tesla series to date is the clear brand favorite in Germany, with almost 6,000 vehicles already having a buyer this year, while the combined model S and model X will be exactly 1,010 new registrations from January to July.

Stephen

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Re: Electric cars
« Reply #377 on: August 14, 2019, 04:14:12 PM »
Damage to roads is directly correlated to the weight of the vehicle, probably exponentially.  So a bicycle will not cause any perceptible damage, a 2 tonne car may cause some, but a 20 tonne truck will cause much, much more than 10 times the damage of the 2 tonne car.

So, ignoring the capital cost of initial construction, road maintenance is best paid for by a per kilogram charge of the GVM.

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Sigmetnow

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Re: Electric cars
« Reply #378 on: August 14, 2019, 05:26:34 PM »
Terry,

You can look at a single example in depth, and say, “but that’s not how everyone drives”... or you can take averages based on testing and wide experience, and say “but that’s not how I would drive.”

     All models are wrong.  Some models are useful.

Here’s an extensive evaluation of a real-world user, from spreadsheets of data.  Is it useful?

Tesla Model 3 Owner Drives 15,000 Miles For $630
August 12th, 2019
Quote
The owner of a long range, rear wheel drive Tesla Model 3 recently took to Reddit to unpack the actual cost of charging at his home charger and at each Supercharger visited in over 13 months of ownership. He graciously shared the data for each session in a single Google spreadsheet that has all the fun details, for the data curious. Thanks to his eMotorwerks/EnelX JuiceBox 40, he was able to pull down data from each charging session that puts everything into scale.

Right off the top, he shared that he spent an average of $47.90 per month on charging at home and at a number of Tesla’s Supercharging stations. That’s a $100 savings versus what he was paying for gas each month, and a testament to the core efficiency of the Model 3, and electric vehicles in general, when compared to their combustion vehicle counterparts. …
https://cleantechnica.com/2019/08/12/tesla-model-3-owner-drives-15000-miles-for-630/
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sedziobs

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Re: Electric cars
« Reply #379 on: August 14, 2019, 06:41:58 PM »
Damage to roads is directly correlated to the weight of the vehicle, probably exponentially.  So a bicycle will not cause any perceptible damage, a 2 tonne car may cause some, but a 20 tonne truck will cause much, much more than 10 times the damage of the 2 tonne car.
Yes, weight and pavement load per axle are related by approximately a power of four (in practice empirical values are published that vary based on climate and pavement type).

A standard load is 9 tons per axle. A 2 ton car is 1 ton per axle, so it is approximately 2*(1/9)^4=0.0003 ESAL (equivalent single axle loads). A 20 ton truck would have tandem axles, but for simplicity I will assume even distribution across 3 axles. 3*(6.67/9)^4=0.9 ESAL.
0.9/0.0003=3000

The truck will do 3000 times the damage of the car. A fully loaded 40 ton semi-truck on 5 axles is about 3 ESAL, which is 10,000 times the damage of a car.

So passenger cars have very little to do with highway pavement repair spending, but they are responsible for costs associated with multiple lanes and local roads.  It would be difficult to separate those out into two different revenue streams.

blumenkraft

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Re: Electric cars
« Reply #380 on: August 14, 2019, 08:17:19 PM »
which is 10,000 times the damage of a car.

I learned the figure of 10k to 20k times the damage once.

I don't want to make this a political debate, but the tax payer, who drives a passenger cars pays the roads with their taxes, while companies kill them with their trucks. Logistics companies like Amazon for example. But Amazon doesn't pay taxes.
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Archimid

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Re: Electric cars
« Reply #381 on: August 14, 2019, 08:39:36 PM »
What about the effect of CO2 emissions on roads? Stronger storms and heatwaves can destroy roads much faster than trucks or heavy cars. Why are ICE’s not paying for their trash?
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cognitivebias2

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Re: Electric cars
« Reply #382 on: August 14, 2019, 09:06:39 PM »
To be fair, those big trucks use more fuel, and so pay more taxes per mile.  This is in the US where diesel taxes are $0.244 and gas taxes are $0.184.  So maybe a reduction of a factor of 5 in the damage/$ figure.  YMMV is apropos here.

 


Sigmetnow

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Re: Electric cars
« Reply #383 on: August 15, 2019, 05:41:37 PM »
U.K.:  Electric car charging points surpass petrol stations for first time
Quote
There are now, for the first time, more electric car charging points in the UK than there are petrol stations as growing adoption of electric vehicles (EVs) has driven a flurry of installations.
...
In some areas of the UK, there are strong signs of the EV takeover. London in particular has seen rising support for EVs, while petrol becomes increasingly scarce.

While Transport for London installed over 1,000 charging points in the nation’s capital in the last year alone, central London now has half as many petrol stations per car than the Scottish Highlands. ...
https://www.verdict.co.uk/electric-car-charging-points/
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Tor Bejnar

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Re: Electric cars
« Reply #384 on: August 15, 2019, 06:07:04 PM »
This Charging Stations vs. Petrol Stations (in UK) graph shows the crossover happened in 2018. 

A pair of internet searches shows 1600 petrol stations and 10,000 charging stations in Norway (but not 'locations').

Also:  "there are 17,526 locations in the US with a total of nearly 48,472 public charging stations (as of December 31, 2017)." and "There are 168,000 retail locations in the U.S. that sell fuel to the public [and declining]."

Edit:  I should add Cleantechnica's
Quote
Stop Comparing The Number Of Gas Stations To EV Charging Stations
good article:  tiny number of EVs compared to ICEVs; home charging; nomenclature of "station"; future context of charging locales on major highways (a locale might have 200 EV stations whereas a gas station at that locale may currently have 30 pumps - charging takes longer than filling up)
« Last Edit: August 15, 2019, 06:24:07 PM by Tor Bejnar »
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Sigmetnow

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Re: Electric cars
« Reply #385 on: August 15, 2019, 06:19:33 PM »
People who say it cannot be done should not interrupt those who are doing it.

Sigmetnow

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Re: Electric cars
« Reply #386 on: August 15, 2019, 06:39:38 PM »
3,099 mile U.S. National Park trip by EV (Tesla Model 3).  Charging costs: $125.13 (plus a bit of free charging.)

Chad Smith (@chadsmith) 8/5/19, 12:19 AM
Final Road Trip Tally:
Route 66 from OKC ➡️ Flagstaff ✔️
@PetrifiedNPS ✔️
@GrandCanyonNPS ✔️
Monument Valley ✔️
@ArchesNPS ✔️
@RockyNPS ✔️
1 kid-friendly @audible_com book
8 states  [side trip to Wyoming]
20 @Tesla superchargers
28 breweries
3099 miles
795 kWh
Nearly all on Autopilot
https://twitter.com/chadsmith/status/1158230970912448513
Images below.  More details and photos in his replies.
< price of all of the recharges ?
Chad Smith:  $125.13. Plus a bit of free charging at @GrandCanyonNPS, @TownofBreck and @WinterPark.

Edit: Another consequence of the trip can be found here:
https://forum.arctic-sea-ice.net/index.php/topic,2406.msg222360.html#msg222360  ;)
« Last Edit: August 15, 2019, 06:55:07 PM by Sigmetnow »
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TerryM

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Re: Electric cars
« Reply #387 on: August 15, 2019, 07:10:34 PM »
^^
Sig
Does he give any reasons for stopping at so many stations?
Bad kidneys, leaky bladder, looking for a pavement princess? ::)


If I started with a full tank I'd need to stop again before the trip was over - but hanging about even in well appointed truck stops just isn't my thing.
Purchasing 40cents worth of fuel is something I haven't done since I trashed my trail bike. And the guy pumping the gas back then wasn't really amused. 8)


Many decades ago shrinking our Harley fuel tanks was a thing. I think it was so we would need to pull into every second gas station en mass to scare the crap out of the "civilians". Are EV drivers going to sport grubbys, fly their colors and terrify little old ladies as they peal slowly off at every second exit? ;D


Motorcycle helmet laws ruined the outlaw lifestyle. :'(
Terry

Sigmetnow

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Re: Electric cars
« Reply #388 on: August 15, 2019, 07:54:23 PM »
^^
Sig
Does he give any reasons for stopping at so many stations?

Geez, Terry.  It’s a family vacation, with kid(s), side trips to visit relatives — and 28 breweries!  National Parks are for casual exploration and enjoying the grandeur of the country — and superchargers are not diesel truck stops. ::)
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TerryM

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Re: Electric cars
« Reply #389 on: August 15, 2019, 10:20:18 PM »
^^
Sig
Does he give any reasons for stopping at so many stations?

Geez, Terry.  It’s a family vacation, with kid(s), side trips to visit relatives — and 28 breweries!  National Parks are for casual exploration and enjoying the grandeur of the country — and superchargers are not diesel truck stops. ::)


Yea
Still have my "Golden Geezer" pass
Free park entrance for anyone disabled or over 65 :)
Some of the more out of the way Anasazi ruins are spectacular, but may require high ground clearance.


Lots of kids running to the restrooms then.
But a 40 cent fuel purchase?
Terry

oren

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Re: Electric cars
« Reply #390 on: August 16, 2019, 02:42:25 AM »
But a 40 cent fuel purchase?
The lowest I can find on that list is $0.88, not $0.40, am I missing something?
But - as there are no per-session charges, no smelly gas pump nozzles to touch, and no need to wait in line to pay - if you're gonna take a 5 minute bathroom break, why not hook up your car to the charger in the meantime?

Zythryn

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Re: Electric cars
« Reply #391 on: August 16, 2019, 04:21:10 AM »
Nice piece on auto manufacturers needing to shift modes to EVs.

https://www.cnn.com/interactive/2019/08/business/electric-cars-audi-volkswagen-tesla/

blumenkraft

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Re: Electric cars
« Reply #392 on: August 16, 2019, 10:32:55 PM »
EV chargers outnumber gas stations in the UK for the first time

https://www.teslarati.com/tesla-superchargers-ev-chargers-outnumber-gas-stations-uk/
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Sigmetnow

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Re: Electric cars
« Reply #393 on: August 17, 2019, 01:15:48 AM »
California

Quote
Bonnie Norman (@bonnienorman) 8/16/19, 4:37 PM
There’s been a hydrogen fuel shortage in Northern Cali since June 1st. About 11 weeks.
Haven't run out of sunshine yet. #solarenergy

- But at least they have a sense of humor about hydrogen fuel shortage. True Zero is truly zero.
https://twitter.com/bonnienorman/status/1162463520346132480
Image below. Another at the reply to the linked tweet.
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Sigmetnow

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Re: Electric cars
« Reply #394 on: August 17, 2019, 02:09:19 PM »
Electric trucks.  (From the Tesla thread.)

California Highway Patrol Posts Photo Of Tesla Semi Hauling Cinder Blocks at Donner Pass
Quote
If you are at the top of the Donner Pass, elevation 7,054 feet, in the Sierra Nevada mountains, the road goes steeply downhill whether you are traveling east or west. The California Highway Patrol maintains a truck inspection facility near Donner Pass to make sure the trucks using it can operate safely as they descend the steep grade.

On August 15, a CHP officer posted a photo on Facebook of a Tesla Semi parked at the inspection station. It was hauling a ~40,000 pound load of cinder blocks (on a ~15,000 lb trailer) as it simulated what it would be like to haul cargo up to the pass and down the other side.

One of the pet peeves of truckers is long, slow climbs that cause them to slow down to 40 mph or below. That shouldn’t be an issue with the Tesla Semi, which has more torque available than almost any tractor in history. Being able to haul heavy loads up steep inclines like the ones leading to the Donner Pass means faster deliveries and less hazard to other motorists from slow-moving trucks.

In the CHP Facebook post, the driver says the Tesla Semi is meeting or exceeding its range expectations. The company says that, depending on the version of chosen by the buyer, the truck should be able to go between 300 and 500 miles hauling a full load of cargo.

That compares quite favorably with the electric trucks being developed by Volvo, Daimler, and BYD. The first two companies have not released specs for their upcoming offerings but BYD has a day cab in production that has a maximum range of 124 miles. That’s good enough for most in-town and interurban routes — especially in the Northeast — but far too short to take on the Donner Pass.

The Tesla Semi is expected to enter production in late 2020 or early 2021. When it goes on sale, it will most likely be the most advanced electric truck money can buy.
https://cleantechnica.com/2019/08/16/california-highway-patrol-posts-photo-of-tesla-semi-hauling-cinder-blocks/

Photo Credit: CHP via Facebook
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TerryM

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Re: Electric cars
« Reply #395 on: August 17, 2019, 04:42:26 PM »
A 40k load on an 80k truck might indicate that the truck weighs a little too much!


BTW the weigh scale that certified that little flatbed trailer @15k needs to be recalibrated - unless it's carrying batteries?


Is the BYD using one of those batteries that don't catch fire, and that can be recharged in ~1min.?
Still not much good for Donner, but more than adequate for rail to warehouse runs. Load it, charge it while loading or unloading, rinse and repeat.


Not sure of the brand, but that's basically the battery tech that they're using for the Toronto Bus Service. They charge them with a catenary setup while people are getting on and off.


Smaller battery, less weight, safe enough for public transportation.


What year was Tesla's Semi supposed to be on the market - my memory and my interest fades after a few years.
Terry
someone with no financial interest in BEVs

oren

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Re: Electric cars
« Reply #396 on: August 17, 2019, 06:51:32 PM »
Terry, I believe you are referring to a big capacitor. There some experimental buses here with this technology. I don't know much about it but I get the feeling it's not a long term solution (maybe cost?). I'll try to dig something up.
The Semi was supposed to be available in 2019, but was pushed back to 2020, if I am not mistaken.

crandles

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Re: Electric cars
« Reply #397 on: August 17, 2019, 07:00:05 PM »
What year was Tesla's Semi supposed to be on the market - my memory and my interest fades after a few years.

unveiled on November 16, 2017 and planned for production in 2019 ...

Then in Sept 2018 there was
"They will also begin to earnestly produce Semis by 2020."

In June 2019 we have
Musk added that he is “looking forward” to bringing Tesla Semi to production around “the end of 2020.”

Can't find anything about expected date from before Nov 2017 unveiling, but maybe others will.

Signs of Musk's 'aspirational' timelines at work again maybe or maybe some slippage is just likely for such a project, but suspect detractors are going to want to put a worse spin on it than this, as always.

 

TerryM

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Re: Electric cars
« Reply #398 on: August 17, 2019, 07:01:16 PM »
Terry, I believe you are referring to a big capacitor. There some experimental buses here with this technology. I don't know much about it but I get the feeling it's not a long term solution (maybe cost?). I'll try to dig something up.
The Semi was supposed to be available in 2019, but was pushed back to 2020, if I am not mistaken.


No
The battery was developed or sold by a chinese/canadian firm out of Winnipeg, where they have a large fleet of them. I believe Toronto has 40 of them running.


Not a capacitor, just a very rapid charging battery without an exothermic reaction.
I feel like a fool, but I can't keep my eyes open.


Hopefully I'll find a link for you when I wake up.
Sorry - but today's health is a long way from where I'd like it to be.
Terry


Sigmetnow

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Re: Electric cars
« Reply #399 on: August 17, 2019, 07:44:33 PM »
Other outlets, trying to write as though they understand about trucks and weights, say the truck was hauling a 75,000 pound load, so... best to not take any of the weights as gospel. ;)  :)

How about: “Electric semi-truck hauls heavy load up and down California mountain highway.”


Tesla Semi Prototype Spotted Hauling 75,000-Pound Load Through Northern California - The Drive
Quote
Napkin math supports the driver's claim that the payload nears 75,000 pounds; each of the nine blocks appear to measure approximately three by three by six feet. As concrete has a density of around 150 pounds per cubic foot, and the trailer is seemingly toting close to 500 cubic feet, our calculations put the truck's payload at close to 73,000 pounds.
https://www.thedrive.com/news/29449/tesla-semi-prototype-spotted-hauling-75000-pound-load-through-northern-california

Tesla Semi Spotted Load Testing Up Near Donner Summit
Quote
DONNER SUMMIT (CBS13) – Don’t be alarmed if you see a strange-looking semi-truck up in the high country.
California Highway Patrol’s Donner Pass division says Tesla is testing out their new electric tractor-trailer in their area on Thursday.

Officials say the electric truck, known as the Tesla Semi, was testing out handling a load of about 75,000 pounds of concrete blocks.
https://www.msn.com/en-us/autos/news/tesla-semi-spotted-load-testing-up-near-donner-summit/ar-AAFQX5c
« Last Edit: August 17, 2019, 07:55:58 PM by Sigmetnow »
People who say it cannot be done should not interrupt those who are doing it.