Electric cars

[blumenkraft]

Total range added Model 3 / X, Taycan, Jaguar I-Pace, E-Tron, EQC, Ioniq 28 kwh etc.

Model 3 playing in another league.

[oren]

In case you mean i.e. a Model 3 or a Model S Tesla, they way 1 Ton more and transport the same number of people and a similar payload over a similar distance.

Result is that the battery has to be twice as big, materials need are almost double, rubber (micro plastic) production is almost double, space on roads needed is almost double, electricity needed to move the car is double (42kw against 95kw battery back for the same achievement) etc. etc.

Numbers and factors i mentioned are rough estimates, no time and no mood to make huge calculation only to find someone who will moan over a second digit after the comma

My dear philopek, you are strongly opinionated yet not very accurate in some of your posts.
Yes, the new Zoe Electric is a great car and I hope it sells in the millions.
It just so happens that its battery is 52 Kwh, while the Model 3's battery is 50 Kwh (with a slightly longer range, so more efficient than the Zoe).
Better to stick to facts, that's all.

[Sigmetnow]

ZOE prices start at £18,670, but you'll have to pay an (as-yet-undisclosed) monthly fee to hire the batteries to get that price. To buy outright, the ZOE starts at £25,670 [$31,555], rising to £28,620 [$35,181] for the top-of-the-range model (or £21,620 with a battery leasing plan).
...
A bigger battery gives the new ZOE a 32% boost in range over the old model, returning 245 miles on a single charge. The new ZOE will be compatible with Type 2 charging cables at rates of up to 22kW, with 50kW charging ability provided by a CCS cable. Respectively, this should translate into 78 miles of range in an hour, or 90 miles of range in 30 minutes.

https://www.drivingelectric.com/renault/zoe/903/new-renault-zoe-2019-specs-prices-and-sale-date

If the lower-priced model fits your needs, by all means go for it.  The price of the higher-optioned model begs for a comparison to the Model 3 or a Bolt.

[cognitivebias2]

I definitely hope this car sells well.  However, I'm missing why this is so much better than that other one.  Sure, it's more of an 'economy car', at correspondingly lower price.  If I were in the market I would look at both.

I don't remember to have named an other one or said it's so much better but let's assume it was kind of transpiring that I think it's better than an 2.5 Ton SUV, you'd still have to name that other one, only then i could either make a case in favor or against the conclusion that it's that much better.

In case you mean i.e. a Model 3 or a Model S Tesla, they way 1 Ton more and transport the same number of people and a similar payload over a similar distance.

Result is that the battery has to be twice as big, materials need are almost double, rubber (micro plastic) production is almost double, space on roads needed is almost double, electricity needed to move the car is double (42kw against 95kw battery back for the same achievement) etc. etc.

Price tag is a quarter to a third for an S model and about half of a model 3 hence less people can switch to a tesla than to renault. So those who really are in for a change should boast renaults instead of teslas to give them the right image so people feel as great in a renault cloe as in a tesla model 3 which would be the right thing. Cloe drivers who could afford a Tesla are the more serious
contenders in the game at hand.

Numbers and factors i mentioned are rough estimates, no time and no mood to make huge calculation only to find someone who will moan over a second digit after the comma and then there is no "normed model" equipment and the likes differ heavily.

I usually ignore the follow up, because, you know, what's the point? 

1) Obvious comparison is Model 3.  You referred to the other thread.  Model S is not reasonable, so lets just say it had to be a Model 3.

2) Per your quote, this car begins to make sense.  It's not a blinding leap of faith to assume a car that makes sense is way better than any Tesla to you.

3) Model 3 400-800 pounds heavier.  Not much of a ton.

4) I see a premium of roughly 20% for Model 3 over ZOE.  Not twice as much.

5) While we are at it, not nearly twice as much of anything else you said.

So basically, you spew bs non-stop.  It would be easy to debunk most of what you say, but who has the time.  I thank those on here that keep it real.  Even GSY, channeling his apparent personal hatred of <sarc>fElon </sarc> has been more on point lately.

[NeilT]

What is the yearly production estimate for the new ZOE?

https://europe.autonews.com/article/20180711/ANE/180709760/renault-prepares-to-double-output-of-zoe-ev

They were aiming to double production from 220 per workday to 440 per workday.  Or the other number quoted was 30,000 per year at pre ramp up rates.

I note that 30,000 divided by 220 gives just over 136 working days.  Knowing what I do about French working hours, the days a company can work and holiday shutdowns I'm not surprised about that.

[KiwiGriff]

Philopek is not even wrong and resorting to using made up numbers .
Model 3sr+ 1610kg
Renault Zoe 40 kwh 1480kg
I can not find a weight for the new model ZE50 according to Renault the battery weighs 350kg up from about  250kg for the old one.  The ZE50 will be much the same weight as the 3.

The model 3 wins when it comes to efficiency.
Range wise the ze50 only gets 390km wltp the 3sr+ is good for 415km wltp both have usable 50kwh
 
Here in NZ the old Zoe is $68000 the 3 $75000.

[philopek]

My dear philopek, you are strongly opinionated yet not very accurate in some of your posts.
Yes, the new Zoe Electric is a great car and I hope it sells in the millions.
It just so happens that its battery is 52 Kwh, while the Model 3's battery is 50 Kwh (with a slightly longer range, so more efficient than the Zoe).
Better to stick to facts, that's all.

The part about the model 3 is correct and my bad ( battery size) I should have stuck to the Model S that is around 1 Ton heavier and has the great battery. The Model 3 just slipped in hence that 100% my mistake.

The 52 as compared to 42Kwh thing I believed the source and had no reason to distrust it because it's known to be accurate, hence it's in part my bad because I didn't verify and perhaps a typo on their side.

Hower that was, you're correct on both counts only that is has nothing to do with being opinionated, it were simple mistakes.

As it happens people often only remember parts of what one says. I think i posted many times before that I really liked Tesla cars from day one. I have no major issue with that product.

My point was that I'm of the opinion that people beside having to drive less, if necessary forced by law depending on personal needs (not wish) that cars should and certainly COULD be half as big  but certainly half as heavy and since governments never had trouble to implement restrictions under all kinds of reasonings but often for insurances and other big players to benefit, they could easily limit the weight of a vehicle per seat and of course again based on persone needs.

Nobody ever meant a farmer to drive a light plastic pickup or a twice as expensive carbon variant.

What i'm talking about is the average user that most of the times commutes from A to B, goes shopping or make recreational rides. For them there is no reason to drive car that is heavier than 1.3 Tons in case of 5 person family.

That in mind and seeing that what i mean becomes more and more available without costing a fortune and without cutting range down to 200km only, I was exited and "too" quickly posted
what i posted without further verification and paying attention to details.

No excuse, just an explanation, thanks for putting things straight for me.

[Jim Hunt]

Thanks, Jim, noted.

The webinar recording I mentioned can be found at the bottom of this article, which documents the "work" part of my recent trip to the City of London:

http://www.V2G-EVSE.com/2019/09/26/the-2019-regen-v2g-forum/

[rboyd]

I drive a BMW 228i, its the size that the 3-series used to be not that many years ago. It seems to me that all the efficiency gains in ICE's of the past decades have been squandered on car up-sizing. Even the Toyota Corolla looks like it has been fed steroids versus its cousin from the 1990's. The first BMW X5 was the size of the current X3 (or perhaps even smaller?).

It would be good to simply tax cars over a certain weight much more, would do wonders for getting full size trucks and monster SUV's off suburban roads (there used to be a movement against SUV's etc., but that seems to have died). Would force the car makers to innovate, and would do wonders for BEV range without having to put in massive amounts of battery power.

Given the relationship of weight to impact on the road (its close to a squared relationship) it would also make sense to charge much higher road tax amounts to larger vehicles (including all the trucks shipping cheap crap and slowing down the highways).

[Sigmetnow]

Oh, dear.

Toyota doubles down on hydrogen with 2nd-gen Mirai’s 2020 release

... Due in no small part to the lack of hydrogen fuel stations across the globe, the adoption of hydrogen fuel cell vehicles has been incredibly slow. In California, for example, there are 33 hydrogen stations, far less than the number of electric vehicle charging stalls in the state. And with the emergence of bang-for-your-buck all-electric vehicles like the Tesla Model 3 Standard Range Plus, vehicles like the Mirai run the risk of being unnecessary.

This lack of charging stations is a notable Achilles Heel for hydrogen cars, considering that their one advantage over pure EVs is supposed to be their longer range. Such advantages are a moot point if there are not enough places to refuel the vehicle. Add the fact that the Mirai starts at around $58,500 in the United States and it becomes very difficult to justify its purchase over the sub-$40,000 Tesla Model 3 Standard Range Plus, which is supported by the Supercharger Network, and has features like basic Autopilot as standard. ...

https://www.teslarati.com/toyota-confirms-mirai-hyrdogen-car-2020-release/

[gerontocrat]

Given the relationship of weight to impact on the road (its close to a squared relationship)

Try to the power of 4 of the axle load... It's official from a study by the American Association of State Highway and Transportation Officials (AASHTO)

https://bettertransport.org.uk/blog/better-transport/lorries-cause-more-damage-roads-cars
The Generalized Fourth Power Law is the most commonly agreed method to approximate the relative impact of vehicles on roads: the damage caused to the structure or foundations of a road is related the axle weight of the vehicle by a power of four.

This means that a six-axle, 44-tonne truck is over 138,000 times more damaging than a typical, small, 1 tonne car (such as a Ford Fiesta) with two axles.

In actual fact, even before the Fourth Power Law is applied, the comparison in weight per axle of 0.5 tonnes for a Fiesta and 7.33 tonnes for a large truck is stark. So, more axles do spread the weight – but nowhere near enough to support the Freight Transport Association's claims.

(Interestingly, Transport Research Laboratory (UK) suggests that the Sixth Power Law could be applied to weak pavements.)

[Sigmetnow]

Schwarzenegger arranged for Thunberg to have a Tesla Model 3 at her disposal as she made her way from the United States to a climate rally in Montreal, ensuring that she could get around in as environmentally friendly a way as possible.

Arnold Schwarzenegger Sent Greta Thunberg an Electric Car
https://www.menshealth.com/entertainment/amp29279061/arnold-schwarzenegger-greta-thunberg-tesla/

[nanning]

<snip>
Try to the power of 4 of the axle load... It's official from a study by the American Association of State Highway and Transportation Officials (AASHTO)

Thank you for that information . Very interesting.

Do you think there is a correlation between the axle load and the 'emitted' microplastics and other abrasive fine particulates from the tires?

[Sigmetnow]

Examining the NYT’s article on their June LA-LV trip which used a “niche” Chevy Bolt.

Teslanomics’ Responds To New York Times' Anti-Electric Car Article
https://insideevs.com/features/373198/teslanomics-open-letter-new-york-times/

[Sigmetnow]

Why Electric-Powered Mobility Is Finally Finding Traction

The value proposition of EVs can’t be properly examined by just looking at the private car, which is something smart city planners are expecting will wane in popularity. Public transit, which sees a usage rate of over 56% in New York City, is a major component of any city electrification strategy, as are the multitude of delivery vehicles (vans and medium-to-large trucks that stop short of long-haul tractor trailers) that form the supply backbone of any city. The electrification of these elements within an aspiring smart city would go a long way towards reshaping our urban cores.
…
Jouret also raised other resistance points such as questions surrounding communal charging stations and the need for the local grids to accommodate high power demands in short bursts. The former requires a non-technical solution, something in the vein of incentives driven by policy and carefully crafted business models. The latter is a topic being carefully studied by EV fleet owners, such as the fleets of delivery vehicles mentioned earlier. A typical scenario for a delivery fleet would require the EVs charged and ready for use early in the morning. The vehicles would need to be plugged in at the end of the day, which would arguably tax any local grid. Enter the microgrid, a way to spread the load across the charging period. The depot where the vehicles are parked would have its own microgrid, supported by solar panels and older batteries that were removed from fleet vehicles. “[T]hey would use [the power from the stationary batteries] for when the vans show up in the early evening for the first part of the charging cycle, then switch over to the local grid say at 11:00pm when most of the consumer demand for electricity begins to ebb. So what that depot is doing is managing its own energy generation, energy storage and energy demand in a dynamic manner in order to optimize the cost of its own electricity and to minimize volatility peaks.”

https://www.forbes.com/sites/johnfrazer1/2019/09/30/why-electric-powered-mobility-is-finally-finding-traction/

—-
European Countries Listed By BEV Car Market Share In H1 2019
https://insideevs.com/news/373465/europe-countries-bev-market-share-h1-2019/
Data below.
Denmark BEV share up x5, the biggest HoH of any European country.  Sweden up 500%.

—-
Behind sales, a profit struggle at BMW, Mercedes

For the first half, BMW's closely watched automotive earnings before interest and taxes margin collapsed to 2.8 percent, while the Mercedes car division had a 1.4 percent operating return on sales. The results are well below the automakers' targeted 8 to 10 percent margin.

https://www.autonews.com/retail/behind-sales-profit-struggle-bmw-mercedes

——
Why are roads and tracks the width they are today?  Because history.
https://threadreaderapp.com/thread/1177631604186996737.html

[Sigmetnow]

They are learning! 

Cars & Coffee group keeps Tesla Supercharger free after mass blocking incident
https://www.teslarati.com/tesla-supercharger-mass-iced-solved/

Previous post, about the blocking:  https://forum.arctic-sea-ice.net/index.php/topic,2686.msg230310.html#msg230310

[Sigmetnow]

Why Shares of Chinese Electric-Car Maker NIO Are Down Sharply Again Today
A post-earnings sell-off is accelerating.

What happened
Shares of Chinese electric-vehicle maker NIO Inc. (NYSE:NIO) were down sharply on Tuesday, as investors continued to digest the implications of a bearish research note released on Monday morning.
As of 1:10 p.m. EDT on Tuesday, NIO's American Depositary Shares were down over 20% from Monday's closing price.

So what
NIO's share price has trended sharply downward since the company released its long-delayed second-quarter earnings last week. The shares have lost about 54% of their value since the beginning of last week, and are down 80% since the company's initial public offering last fall.

The sell-off seems to have accelerated since Monday morning, when analysts at Sanford C. Bernstein, led by Asia autos expert Robin Zhu, cut their price target for NIO to just $0.90 on well-founded concerns that the company could run out of cash within weeks. ...

https://www.fool.com/investing/2019/10/01/why-shares-of-chinese-electric-car-maker-nio-are-d.aspx

[Sigmetnow]

So you want to offer charging, but not give the electricity away for free.  Or you want to reserve a charging slot at your destination, to be sure it will be available.  Or your homeowners association wants to know there won’t be fights over the chargers you’ve asked it to install.  Now, there”s an app for that.

Want To Monetize Your Charging Station? Check Out EVmatch

EVmatch provides payment processing and booking, but with lower-cost hardware than a traditional network such as ChargePoint. “We’re sort of in between a non-network charging station that has no payment processing and a highly-featured public charging station,” Hochrein explains. “What we’re doing is leveraging low-cost Wi-Fi-enabled charging hardware and our software application in order to provide [a full suite of] booking, payments and access control services at a low cost.”
... 
EVmatch is in the process of rolling out an interesting new feature that it calls a “subnetwork.” This allows a customer to create a small EVmatch network within their property. “An apartment complex or hotel can provide exclusive access to their charging stations for their subnetwork, and then at certain hours they can also make it available to the public,” Hochrein explains. “It’s an added access control feature that we’ve had a lot of demand for from groups that want to have exclusive access or exclusive tracking for a subgroup of users, but are also interested in making their equipment available to the public at certain times.”

The subnetwork feature has several promising applications. If an apartment complex installs chargers, they can use the feature to make them reservable. “We’ll be deploying charging stations in multiunit properties, and our software [allows] tenants to share efficiently among themselves and pay for their charging. The property manager can decide if they want to make the chargers available to the public at any time.”

https://insideevs.com/news/374133/evmatch-future-charging-solutions/amp/

[Sigmetnow]

Porsche ramps hiring efforts as demand for Taycan exceeds expectations

“Taycan’s original production capacity was 20,000 units. This continues to be the requirement for the first year of production. By increasing its workforce by the end of the second quarter of 2020, Porsche is providing itself with the necessary flexibility to be able to produce more units if necessary.”

https://www.teslarati.com/porsche-taycan-job-hiring-demand/


—— The UAW (Autoworkers) strike continues...

ValueAnalyst (@ValueAnalyst1)10/2/19, 5:33 AM
Who will cave in?
@GM will have shaved its bloated inventory down to “industry norm” by next week - still months worse than Tesla - any more delay is costly
@UAW can’t give in because this deal could become a blueprint for subsequent negotiations
What to do... What to do...
https://twitter.com/valueanalyst1/status/1179328522621456386
< They will find a compromise. This whole thing is just a production hold in disguise.
VA:  I agree. Probably next week.
< Union members will be thrown under the bus as usual by team leaders and company!  Don't expect honesty and integrity.
VA:  Agreed.

[Sigmetnow]

Porsche ramps hiring efforts as demand for Taycan exceeds expectations

“Taycan’s original production capacity was 20,000 units. This continues to be the requirement for the first year of production. By increasing its workforce by the end of the second quarter of 2020, Porsche is providing itself with the necessary flexibility to be able to produce more units if necessary.”

https://www.teslarati.com/porsche-taycan-job-hiring-demand/

Rob Maurer makes the point (around minute 12) that  “Porsche increasing production” is not the same as “Porsche increasing production targets”:

https://techcastdaily.com/2019/10/02/q3-19-delivery-production-report-model-y-prototype-10-02-19/

[Sigmetnow]

Oh, dear.

Toyota doubles down on hydrogen with 2nd-gen Mirai’s 2020 release

... Due in no small part to the lack of hydrogen fuel stations across the globe, the adoption of hydrogen fuel cell vehicles has been incredibly slow. In California, for example, there are 33 hydrogen stations, far less than the number of electric vehicle charging stalls in the state. And with the emergence of bang-for-your-buck all-electric vehicles like the Tesla Model 3 Standard Range Plus, vehicles like the Mirai run the risk of being unnecessary.

This lack of charging stations is a notable Achilles Heel for hydrogen cars, considering that their one advantage over pure EVs is supposed to be their longer range. Such advantages are a moot point if there are not enough places to refuel the vehicle. Add the fact that the Mirai starts at around $58,500 in the United States and it becomes very difficult to justify its purchase over the sub-$40,000 Tesla Model 3 Standard Range Plus, which is supported by the Supercharger Network, and has features like basic Autopilot as standard. ...

https://www.teslarati.com/toyota-confirms-mirai-hyrdogen-car-2020-release/

Difficulties also in the UK:

GARY C (@TheRealGaryC) 10/3/19, 11:32 AM
Saw a Toyota Mirai FCEV today in Welwyn Garden City. Asked him where he was going.
“Dagenham” he said. “Closest working hydrogen pump”
An 80 mile round trip (over 2 hours driving) to refill.
When I asked him why hydrogen not EV he said “They refill in THREE MINUTES!”
https://twitter.com/therealgaryc/status/1179781334878867456
GC- We have 13 hydrogen pumps in the UK of which 4 don’t work at the moment. The nearest working pump was Dagenham. So despite the fact that he’s right, it does refill in 3 minutes, he has a 40 mile journey to get there. Bizarre, right?
< He's mad. And wouldnt that 3 minutes depend on someone else not having just filled up - with resulting wait for repressurisation?
GC- Up to 20 minutes to repressurise in some cases, I believe.
< There a hydrogen station here in Brussels, he's welcome to come and use it, might get rid of some of the weeds growing on the forecourt...
< Have you read the public Mirai Owners Group on facebook? I feel SO sorry for people who bought these things in good faith.
GC- I’ve certainly seen a few of the comments.  Not good.

[Jim Hunt]

Anybody wanna play "Spot the ICE"?

[Sigmetnow]

Polestar 2 price finalized in Europe: €59k, competitive with Tesla Model 3
https://electrek.co/2019/10/04/volvo-polestar-2-pricing-europe-competitive-with-tesla-model-3/

Audi e-tron Sales In U.S. Continue To Decline In September
https://insideevs.com/news/374641/audi-e-tron-sales-us-declining/

Automotive News (@Automotive_News) 10/5/19, 10:17 PM
UAW official charged in corruption probe takes leave of absence dlvr.it/RFbXBF

https://twitter.com/automotive_news/status/1180668379062923264

——-

Aaron Brighton (@aaronbrighton) 10/6/19, 8:25 AM
Last week I decided to better understand the reason for lackluster Non-@Tesla EV sales numbers.
Called local @Hyundai, @chevy, @Nissan, and @VW dealerships.
What I learned:
EVs aren't available for test drives, they lie about price, and they take months (up to 4) to order in.

https://twitter.com/aaronbrighton/status/1180821466461474816

Sean M Mitchell (@seanmmitchell) 10/1/19, 1:26 PM [Referring to Edmunds tweet below]
Hold my beer...
2019 [U.S.] YTD Sales (via @InsideEVs)
Hyundai Ioniq: 281
Hyundai Kona: 577
VW e-Golf: 3,042
Nissan Leaf Plus: 9,111
Chevy Bolt: 9,266
Tesla Model 3: 114,500

https://twitter.com/seanmmitchell/status/1179085244911063040

Edmunds (@edmunds) 9/27/19, 12:34 PM
In no particular order, these are the very best 'affordable' (i.e. under $40k) electric vehicles you can buy right now:
- Hyundai Kona
- Chevrolet Bolt
- VW e-Golf
- Nissan Leaf Plus
- Hyundai Ioniq

https://twitter.com/edmunds/status/1177622463791845377
1-minute video at the link.

Earl of Frunkpuppy (@28delayslater) 9/28/19, 5:01 AM
@edmunds In no particular order, this is a number under $40k ( #Tesla #Model3 )

https://twitter.com/28delayslater/status/1177870841587159041
Image below.

[Sigmetnow]

Colin Mckerracher (@colinmckerrache) 10/4/19, 12:06 PM
Global electric bus fleet:
2012: 5,000
2019: 425,000

https://twitter.com/colinmckerrache/status/1180152119619411969

CM: Just under 20% fleet share now. So far it's mostly a China story, but it's spreading fast. My colleague @NickRAlbanese is leading our work on this area.

< Reply: [image showing a Tesla plugged into a coal plant.]
CM: you’re right on time.

Colin Mckerracher (@colinmckerrache) 2/5/19, 9:45 AM
New variant of Godwin's law:
Once a tweet about EVs reaches 100 retweets, somebody with an anonymous profile shouts "Coal powered cars!"

https://twitter.com/colinmckerrache/status/1092796406308450304

 
Help drivers operate e-buses more efficiently?  There’s an app for that.
The Economizer — A Solution For Electric Buses

A more efficient driving style, achievable with the Economizer, helps to reduce the energy consumption level in vehicles operated under real conditions. The estimated level of savings varies according to traffic density, vehicle load, and terrain shaping. The energy consumption might be lowered by up to 30% if the driver follows the instructions.

The data also shows that, when monitored, overall wear and tear on vehicles operated in urban spaces using the Economizer can be reduced by up to 30%. ...

https://cleantechnica.com/2019/10/05/the-economizer-a-solution-for-electric-buses/
Image below.

[rboyd]

99% of those electric buses are in China!

There were about 425,000 electric buses in service in the world’s cities last year. Almost all—99 percent of them—were in China. The booming industrial city of Shenzhen, in particular, is one of only a few cities to have fully electrified its fleet. The rest of the globe, meanwhile, is racing to catch up, and falling further behind.

That’s why he says one of the most overlooked stories from Shenzhen’s experience is the city’s long process in setting up the charging infrastructure to support more than 16,000 electric buses. Each bus has a range of about 124 miles on a single charge of 252 kilowatt hours (KWh). In total, the fleet can eat more than 4,000 megawatt-hours (MWh). For comparison’s sake, 1 MWh is enough to power about 300 homes for an hour. “That’s an insane amount of power required, not to mention real estate,” he says. “And the process to identify what land is available, then to work with the utilities—even just figuring out the optimal location—is a hugely important task, and incredibly challenging.”

That’s what Philadelphia discovered when it decided to expand its existing fleet of e-buses with newer models—ones that featured bigger batteries. The city failed to recognize in the early planning process that it would be prohibitively expensive to acquire land in its busy downtown area for charging stations along the bus routes. So they decided to install all the charging infrastructure in the bus depots.

“They made that decision without realizing that [it would cost] $1.5 million to upgrade the electrical system in that one location to install a substation that can power 20 vehicles,” Gorguinpour says. “These things can get out of control real fast.”

the importance of bring all potential stakeholders together before making any decisions—something that WRI’s second report, which offers a roadmap to adopting electric buses, strongly emphasizes. That includes not only transit officials, but also utility companies, bus operators, and organizations that can help the city finance such a costly endeavor. That includes multinational and national development banks, which Gorguinpour call the “obvious places to start.” In some cases—as in Chile’s capital city of Santiago, which has the largest e-bus fleet outside of China—it’s utility companies, not transit agencies, that have stepped up to finance the projects.

https://www.citylab.com/transportation/2019/06/electric-bus-china-grid-ev-charging-infrastructure-battery/591655/

[rboyd]

China’s Electric Buses Save More Diesel Than All Electric Cars Combined

Very interesting take on the relative amounts of oil saved by buses versus cars. The biggest relative issues are size and miles drives. I would assume much the same goes for trucks (size and mileage) and high mileage taxis (e.g. taxi/uber drivers).

Buses play a pivotal role in public transport around the world. Their size and constant use mean that 1,000 electric buses, according to BNEF calculations, displace 500 barrels of diesel demand each day. For comparison, 1,000 electric cars displace 15 barrels of oil demand a day.

Shenzhen, a fast-growing megacity with 12 million inhabitants, is the vanguard of electric buses, with a fleet of 16,000 of them. More than 30 Chinese cities have plans to reach 100 percent electrified public transit by 2020.

BUT

However, these figures don’t represent the full story. The electricity to power the buses has to come from somewhere. In the case of China, that often involves one of the worst CO2 culprits of all: coal. The production costs, both economic and in terms of energy, of electric vehicles also tend to be higher, in part because of their battery systems.

Research shows that anything below an 80% coal mix is still CO2 positive for EV's, due to the relative efficiency of electric engines vs. ICEs. So all those Chinese buses are still reducing CO2 emissions at the margin (China's grid is about 58% coal) while also reducing China's oil imports and city air pollution (and reducing the albedo, but thats another story...).

AND

However, while electric buses work well in Shenzhen, a city where moles could be likely suspects for some of the biggest hills when compared to neighboring Hong Kong, they’re not necessarily suited for more undulating urban environments—at least not yet.

https://singularityhub.com/2019/04/22/chinas-electric-buses-save-more-diesel-than-all-electric-cars-combined/

[Tor Bejnar]

... a city where moles could be likely suspects for some of the biggest hills  ...

cute! 

[TerryM]

China’s Electric Buses Save More Diesel Than All Electric Cars Combined

<snipped>

However, while electric buses work well in Shenzhen, a city where moles could be likely suspects for some of the biggest hills when compared to neighboring Hong Kong, they’re not necessarily suited for more undulating urban environments—at least not yet.

https://singularityhub.com/2019/04/22/chinas-electric-buses-save-more-diesel-than-all-electric-cars-combined/

I believe that E- Buses incorporate regenerative braking, at least this was one of the early selling points.
Regenerative braking should give electrical propulsion a big advantage over diesel in hilly terrains.




In an earlier post you touched on the 4,000 MWH that the Shenzhen E-Buses draw. Buses are acknowledged as being much more efficient than private vehicles. Imagine the power draw if a similarly sized city were dependant on EVs for transportation.




In another thread you'd expressed hope that we'd be able to reduce electrical consumption by 20% in the coming decades. Had you considered what a proliferation of EVs would do to that forecast?
Terry

[Jim Hunt]

I believe that E- Buses incorporate regenerative braking, at least this was one of the early selling points.

Regenerative braking should give electrical propulsion a big advantage over diesel in hilly terrains.

Even our humble Zoe the ZOE includes "regenerative braking" technology Terry!

Here's a photo journal of her recent trip to the seaside:

[TerryM]

Jim

Beautiful pictures


Yea, I've always imagined that regenerative braking would be particularly suited to the stop and go routes of urban buses. Decades ago they were experimenting with flywheels on buses in an effort to capture some of this energy.
A hilly terrain provides the other obvious use for the technology and I'm at a loss to explain why the copied article believed it would be a hindrance to E-Buses competing with diesels.


Nice ride!
Terry

[NeilT]

China’s Electric Buses Save More Diesel Than All Electric Cars Combined

Very interesting take on the relative amounts of oil saved by buses versus cars. The biggest relative issues are size and miles drives. I would assume much the same goes for trucks (size and mileage) and high mileage taxis (e.g. taxi/uber drivers).

It is a very interesting take, but it was pretty much content free in terms of actual figures for energy usage and efficiency of the busses.

I dug around a bit and found this article on nextBIGfuture

https://www.nextbigfuture.com/2018/12/despite-chinas-mainly-coal-power-electric-buses-halve-emissions-overall.html

Some of the claims are interesting because they tell you what the comparison in energy usage was calculated from.

The electric buses are more efficient in energy use overall. Over 70% less the power is used.

Now I don't dispute the figure given, it just suggests that the busses being replaced are giving fuel efficiencies of vehicles form the 1950's.  There is no way the Electic busses are close to 200% more efficient than current 21st century diesel engines.  Even Tesla cars are only 50% more efficient than their equivalent FF engines.

As the busses phase out the older vehicles, the savings in diesel will drop dramatically because the more modern engines already use less fuel.

There is, however, another factor in the whole article that reduces the whole story in it's beneficial view.

China is also building 1-2% more city every year. You might think well 1-2% those are small numbers. In China’s case, that means adding an equivalent of a Los Angeles of city every year or two.

It is a good move overall.  But let us not forget that Chinese coal fired power stations were directly attributed to the large growth of black carbon soot found to be accelerating the loss of Arctic ice by lowering albedo.

In the nextbigfuture article it is abundantly clear that the moves by China to go Electric for busses and cars is more to do with pollution locally than CO2 reduction.

Although if it produces cheap electric busses for the rest of the world, who may have a better renewable power mix, then that's a good thing.

[philopek]

Here's a photo journal of her recent trip to the seaside:

You have the kind of car that should be the norm nowadays.

Only my approach is slightly better since I don't own a car anymore

[JK] Above is a good example how to mislead without lying LOL, I own a motorcycle with
semi-internal combustion engine While it overall consumption is low, it's relative consumption unfortunately is high (l/kg)

Waiting for Battery Electric Motorcycle that has fairings and full touring capacity still, i think "ZERO" is close to release one next year.

[Sigmetnow]

Cute McDonalds commercial about EV-chargers in Sweden!

McDonald’s Wants To Charge Your Electric Car
https://cleantechnica.com/2019/09/27/mcdonalds-wants-to-charge-your-electric-car/



—-
If you are looking for some extra clean-energy reading (mostly Tesla-related), here’s a list of CleanTechnica’s Top 20 articles for the week:
https://cleantechnica.com/2019/10/06/mcdonalds-ev-charging-tesla-model-3-vs-toyota-camry-vs-chevy-bolt-cost-of-ownership-cleantechnica-top-20/

[Jim Hunt]

Only my approach is slightly better since I don't own a car anymore

Whilst we do own Zoe we are doing our best to lend her to other people:

http://www.V2G.co.uk/2017/09/an-electric-car-club-for-camelford/

[Sigmetnow]

GM furloughs more workers as union strike enters fourth week

   •   The United Auto Workers' strike against GM, now in its fourth week, is continuing to have a ripple-effect on the automaker's operations outside of the U.S.
   •   GM on Monday furloughed about 415 of 2,100 employees who produce V-8 engines and transmissions at a facility in Mexico to not come to work.
   •   The affected employees add to roughly 10,000 non-UAW workers in North America to be affected by the strike.

https://www.msn.com/en-us/money/companies/gm-furloughs-more-workers-as-union-strike-enters-fourth-week/ar-AAIpBwU

ValueAnalyst (@ValueAnalyst1) 10/7/19, 11:53 PM
Passed my 3-week guess.

https://twitter.com/valueanalyst1/status/1181417280527310848

———
Ferrari refused to call the Purosangue an SUV or a crossover but instead described it as a vehicle for "multiple occasions and passengers" and offering "revolutionary accessibility."

Ferrari Finally Going SUV with "Purosangue" Hybrid Crossover by 2022
https://www.caranddriver.com/news/a23300134/ferrari-hybrid-crossover-confirmed/

———

Robert Llewellyn (@bobbyllew) 10/7/19, 8:01 AM
I think I'm going to have to write a blog about chargers, charge speeds, domestic sockets, destination chargers, rapid chargers etc. It's confusing and complex with no widely agreed description of which is which. Who knew a single tweet could felicity such interest!
https://twitter.com/bobbyllew/status/1181177712909717505
- Proper LOL. Amazing how spell check can really put a crimp on your day

Smart Energy GB (@SmartEnergyGB) 10/7/19, 9:02 AM
61% of those surveyed agreed that if they better understood how to prevent climate change, they’d be more inclined to try. Is there an easier way? #MissingPiece

https://twitter.com/smartenergygb/status/1181193114029117446
   
Do you want a guide with the cheapest EVs for sale in the US? Here it is. With all electric cars you could have for less than $40,000. Just pay attention: some of them will vanish from dealerships soon.
Here Are The 9 Cheapest Electric Cars Below $40,000 In The U.S.
https://insideevs.com/features/374987/9-cheap-evs-under-40000-us/

[Sigmetnow]

Talks with UAW hit snag over union demand for new car production in the U.S.

On Sunday, the union voiced concerns in the talks about GM increasing production in Mexico, where it now builds pickup trucks, small cars and two SUVs. GM led all companies in automobiles produced in Mexico at just over 833,000 last year, according to LMC Automotive and the Center for Automotive Research, a think-tank based in Ann Arbor, Michigan. Of GM vehicles sold in the U.S., 22% are produced in Mexico.
...
The strike by 49,000 workers, now in its 23rd day, began Sept. 16, and immediately shut down all of GM's U.S. factories. Later two factories in Canada and Mexico were forced to close due to a lack of parts.

The strike has cost the company production of 165,000 cars and trucks and has passed the point where the GM can make up lost volume, according to auto industry analysts.

That means losses are starting to mount for GM even though its dealers have enough inventory to get by for several more weeks.
...
"Once the strike ends, it may still take up to a week to get the parts pipeline going again. So we are likely looking at a loss of well over 200,000 vehicles," Rinna wrote in a note distributed Tuesday. ...

https://www.cbsnews.com/news/gm-strike-talks-with-uaw-hit-snag-over-union-demand-for-new-car-production-in-the-us/

[Tor Bejnar]

That means losses are starting to mount for GM even though its dealers have enough inventory to get by for several more weeks.

Until the inventory drop starts actually eating into sales, I think the strike is a good thing for GM's bottom line.  Think of all the discounted car sales they won't have to endure when the next model comes out.

[Jim Hunt]

A ludicrous headline in Wired:

"No You Can’t Power Your House With Your Electric Car"

The image under the headline looks like this:



Need I say more? Actually I did!

https://twitter.com/V2gUK/status/1182194788080214016

Evidently Wired are aware that Tesla aren't the only EV manufacturer on the entire planet. In which case WTF that headline?

[Sigmetnow]

Home solar provider Sunrun Inc. said hundreds of customers were spared from recent planned shutoffs because of their solar panels and batteries -- and it expects that to number to be in the thousands after this week’s blackout.
California’s Blackout Becomes a Selling Point for Back-Up Power
https://www.bloomberg.com/amp/news/articles/2019-10-09/california-s-blackout-becomes-a-selling-point-for-back-up-power

Tesla Superchargers will have Powerpacks to help with outages, says Elon Musk
October 9, 2019

After Pacific Gas & Electric (PG&E) has started to shut down energy up to 800,000 homes across the Bay Area, Tesla CEO Elon Musk announced earlier today that he would begin installing Tesla Powerpacks in the areas that are to be affected by outages.

“All Tesla Supercharger stations in regions affected by California power outages will have Tesla Powerpacks within next few weeks. Just waiting on permits,” the CEO said on Twitter. The Powerpacks would supply energy via Tesla battery cells that would help owners charge their vehicles at Superchargers within the affected area without gas or electric.

https://www.teslarati.com/tesla-superchargers-will-have-powerpacks-to-help-with-outages-says-elon-musk/
Tesla is also adding solar to their supercharger stations “as fast as possible.”

[Sigmetnow]

Video:  All gas stations in Auburn, California are closed due to power outage, occurring due to shutoffs by the utility to help prevent wildfires.  At least one station expects to be closed all week.  Nearest open station (at the moment) is 16 miles away.  Traffic is clogged and slow because traffic signal lights are out. 

Where to fuel up your car during a power outage
https://www.abc10.com/article/news/local/wildfire/pge-outage-gas-stations/103-5263193d-19de-4659-9ecd-6f62abada8ea

[Sigmetnow]

  Not gonna happen:
BMW bets on doubling of luxury car sales to boost margins
https://www.reuters.com/article/us-bmw-cfo-luxury/bmw-bets-on-doubling-of-luxury-car-sales-to-boost-margins-idUSKBN1WP1MS
BMW hopes to sell around 135,000 premium models such as the i8, 8-series, X7 and 7-series in 2020, up from around 65,000 in 2018.

What would happen to car sales if manufacturers could no longer afford to advertise?

ValueAnalyst (@ValueAnalyst1) 10/10/19, 3:35 AM
Most automakers spend billions of marketing dollars per year; Tesla spends 0.
Elon’s most popular tweets attract as many eyeballs as [Superbowl] commercials, which cost $5M for just 30 seconds.
Hundreds of millions of people use Twitter
Tens of millions of people saw this tweet:

        Elon Musk (@elonmusk) 10/9/19, 1:41 PM
        Tesla software V10.0 comes with karaoke
        But we call it “caraoke”, because it’s in a car
        https://twitter.com/elonmusk/status/1181988180326633472

https://twitter.com/valueanalyst1/status/1182198041807376384
VA:  If Tesla were to spend as much on marketing and sales incentives as, say, Volkswagen, it would have to increase its prices by $10,000 to $20,000 per vehicle.
Interestingly, Tesla is the only automaker that is seeing surging demand, while sales of other brands are plunging. ...
VA:  Here’s the kicker: What happens to legacy automakers’ already-plunging sales when they can no longer afford to waste billions of marketing dollars as soon as 2020?
I predict a 50% drop in ICE sales in 2021.

[TerryM]

Sig
Unless the world is facing a depression that dwarfs the 1930s there in no imaginable way that ICE vehicle sales will drop by 50% by 2021.
Posting silly things like that does nothing to promote your cause.
Terry

[Sigmetnow]

Exclusive: carmakers among key opponents of climate action

The research revealed that since 2015, Fiat Chrysler, Ford, Daimler, BMW, Toyota and General Motors have been among the strongest opponents of regulations to help countries meet the 1.5C warming limit in the Paris agreement.

In the four years since then, lobbying from the car industry in the US and Europe has attempted to block, delay and frustrate initiatives to regulate and reduce emissions from the transport sector – which is responsible for 15% of the world’s greenhouse gas emissions – and slow the move to electric vehicles, the report says.

https://www.theguardian.com/environment/2019/oct/10/exclusive-carmakers-opponents-climate-action-us-europe-emissions

[Sigmetnow]

Dyson has scrapped their electric vehicle plans

In 2017, Sir James Dyson of the well-known Dyson Vacuum Company launched a project to produce an electric car. But recently, the company has unfortunately decided to scrap the project after determining that it was “not commercially viable.”

Dyson and its engineers had developed a “fantastic electric car” according to the company’s founder, but the £2.5 billion project that employs 523 people has failed to attract a buyer that would help develop the future vehicles. ...

https://www.teslarati.com/dyson-scrapped-their-electric-vehicle-plans-heres-why/

[Sigmetnow]

UAW Demands GM Stop Importing Cars
The auto workers' union also demands that General Motors turn back its move toward electric vehicles.
Oct 10, 2019
• Proposals continue to be rejected on both sides as the United Auto Workers enters day 24 of its strike against General Motors.
• UAW vice president Terry Dittes said union leaders "don't understand GM's opposition" to reducing its Mexican exports to the United States.
• The UAW also does not want GM to prioritize production on electric or autonomous vehicles even though the automaker promised a new battery plant in Ohio.
https://www.caranddriver.com/news/a29418582/uaw-strike-general-motors-imported-car-demands/

[Sigmetnow]

Automotive News (@Automotive_News) 10/10/19, 8:20 AM
GM's Q3 China sales slip 18%   dlvr.it/RFvQCk
https://twitter.com/automotive_news/status/1182269684206329856

[Sigmetnow]

Ford Motor Co’s July-to-September vehicle sales in China fell 30%, as the U.S. automaker continued to lose ground in a prolonged sales decline in its second biggest market.

Ford's China sales decline again despite new models

Ford’s sales in China fell 35.8% in the first quarter and by 21.7% in the second quarter.

https://www.reuters.com/article/us-ford-china/fords-china-sales-decline-again-despite-new-models-idUSKBN1WQ0QW

[Sigmetnow]

Mercedes-Benz EQB Electric SUV Spied: Multiple Range Variants Expected

The boxy shape of the EQB will hide a relatively large 60-kWh battery, which should provide a range of 310 miles (500 kilometers) between two charges (yes, we understand this is a very odd metric, but it's the figure M-B is providing right now) in the base model. Word on the street is the range-topping variant will come with an even larger battery pack.

https://insideevs.com/news/375674/mercedes-benz-eqb-spy-images/amp/

——
U.S.
Startup Volta will charge your electric car for free.  (But there will be ads.)
https://www.cnet.com/roadshow/news/volta-free-electric-car-charging-ev/

—-
Hate the Nissan LEAF app?  You are not alone.
The Nissan LEAF Has An Issue With Its App: It Does Not Work
https://insideevs.com/news/375852/nissan-leaf-app-doesnt-work/

—-
Josh Thomas (@SabrToothSqrl) 10/10/19, 1:51 PM
I always give Bolt owners the thumbs up from my @Tesla. It takes a lot of courage to drive that thing.
https://twitter.com/sabrtoothsqrl/status/1182353001962496000

—-
Jawad Khalid (@JawadKhalid89)10/11/19, 11:46 AM
How dare you!
https://twitter.com/jawadkhalid89/status/1182683831628791809
Brief video message at the link.

[Sigmetnow]

YUAN TALKS (@YuanTalks) 10/12/19, 4:07 AM
#China’s passenger car sales fell 6.6% y/y in September, down for the 3rd straight month, according to China passenger car association.

https://twitter.com/yuantalks/status/1182930758744170496


India's September passenger vehicle sales dive 24% as slowdown persists

...passenger car sales dived 33.4% to 131,281 units.
SIAM's data comes as the domestic automobile industry faces a crippling slowdown in demand that has led to production cuts and thousands of job losses. The industry is seeing its longest ever streak of sales decline.

https://mobile.reuters.com/article/amp/idUSKBN1WQ0GN

[NeilT]

I did a bit of digging into the VW ID.3 plans.

Apparently the initial ramp of vehicles will be the mid range.  Not the top end, nor the bottom.  In the UK this means you will be buying a Golf type vehicle for close to £40k with a range less than a SR model 3 in real life.

I'm struggling to envision a situation where I would lash out so much for a VW with less capabilities when I could get a Tesla for so little more.

Also VAG states that it is ramping up to produce 22m EV's a year by around 15 years, yet they are ramping up one factory to produce 330k cars by 2023.

In EV terms VAG will be where Tesla was in 2017, by 2023.

By 2023 I expect Tesla to be pushing out close to 1m cars a year and be closing in on completion of their 3rd 500k per year factory.

The VAG approach has been touted as "all in" but the more I read about it, for a company of the size of VAG, it feels more like "toe in the water".