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Jim Hunt

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Re: Electric cars
« Reply #700 on: October 13, 2019, 02:39:09 PM »
Hate the Nissan LEAF app?  You are not alone.

I've never even bothered to try and get the LEAF app working.

Meanwhile on this side of the pond:

https://twitter.com/env200adventure/status/1182660796964323330

Quote
Big story coming soon to a UK national quality newspaper.

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NeilT

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Re: Electric cars
« Reply #701 on: October 13, 2019, 04:21:00 PM »
It is an interesting point though.

If you read about the ID.3 and to the details, you get a lot of "it'll do 100kw" charging.  Etc.

But the details are somewhat different.

The Pure is 45kw and only comes, standard, with 50kw charging.  The Pro is 100kw and the Pro S is 120kw.

If you think about it, the batteries will only take 100kw from 0% to roughly 50% then it will begin to taper.  For the Pure that is 14 minutes from empty until it begins to taper.  Or roughly 80 miles (worst case), in 15 minutes.

After that 14 minutes you are paying for an expensive charger to charge at lower rates.  Hence the "option" for 100kw.

With a  40kwh Leaf that is going to be even less time fast charging.  Or, in other words, wasting money connected to a fast charger.  I can understand Nissan not wanting customers to do that.
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Jim Hunt

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Re: Electric cars
« Reply #702 on: October 13, 2019, 04:33:33 PM »
I can understand Nissan not wanting customers to do that.

So can I.

However it seems some Nissan customers would like to be able to drive their e-NV200 Combi (or LEAF) from the once United Kingdom to the South of France and back just as quickly as they used to be able to do in a Volvo 940 Estate or whatever.
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Sigmetnow

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Re: Electric cars
« Reply #703 on: October 13, 2019, 08:01:59 PM »
New Yorkers could face battery-charging station shortage for electric cars
Quote
In a new survey by consulting firm West Monroe Partners, 57% of New Yorkers are forecast to buy an electric vehicle (EV) within the next 24 months.

The same survey found that 45% of Connecticut respondents planned to snap up an EV within the next two years, and that 49% of participants in New Jersey would do so.


“The orders for our electric vehicles are coming in from excited consumers to our offices at several locations in New York City — and it’s all good,” one worker at a Tesla sales office in Manhattan, who declined to be named, told The Post. …
https://nypost.com/2019/10/12/new-yorkers-could-face-battery-charging-station-shortage-for-electric-cars/

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In The U.S., Electric Vehicle Charging Prospects Are Bleak Out There (For The Rest Of Us Who Don’t Drive A Tesla Model 3)
Quote
Getting a fast charge is often anything but fast.

I live in an EV hot spot within the hot EV market of Los Angeles. Electric vehicles are now one of the most common new cars in my community. If there was ever a perfect spot for a fast charge station, it would be here.

Except there aren’t any. Yes, there are a few Level 2 charge pumps (two at a local Whole Foods) but public Level 2* doesn’t cut it for me.
The closest faster charger (Level 3) station is 10 miles. But that’s only two pumps. Not worth it because the wait times are usually too long.
So, if I’m heading toward places I frequent like Century City, the only viable option is taking a detour to a charging station in Tarzana (a neighborhood in Los Angeles) where the wait times aren’t as long.

But that’s 15 minutes out of the way. Then another 15 minute wait (often) for a pump to free up, then 30-60 minutes to charge (adding 50 to 100 miles of range). Then another 15 minutes to get back on 405 – if there’s no traffic.

Pardon the vernacular, but that sucks. …
https://www.forbes.com/sites/brookecrothers/2019/10/13/in-the-us-electric-vehicle-charging-prospects-are-bleak-out-there-for-the-rest-of-us-who-dont-drive-a-tesla-model-3/

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 Morten Grove (@mortenlund89) 10/13/19, 4:13 AM
Nice, just got this ad on Danish news site  :)
#EVsAreComing
#2020wave
https://twitter.com/mortenlund89/status/1183294613945225216
Image below.
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Sigmetnow

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Re: Electric cars
« Reply #704 on: October 13, 2019, 08:12:53 PM »
These Are The Surprising Cars More People Get Rid Of In The First Year (Wait, How Many Are BMW's?)
https://www.inc.com/chris-matyszczyk/these-are-surprising-cars-more-people-get-rid-of-in-first-year-wait-how-many-are-bmws.html

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VW NEEDS CASH!

VW Is Considering Options for Lamborghini Brand in Overhaul
https://finance.yahoo.com/news/vw-said-mull-options-lamborghini-193453760.html

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Quote
JPR007 (@jpr007) 10/11/19, 5:38 PM
VW appears to be in more serious cash flow trouble than we have generally been considering.
When you short your employees’ Pension Fund by €33 billion, apparently including pulling real Cash out of it, things must be pretty desperate . . .

https://twitter.com/jpr007/status/1182772468609478656
ValueAnalyst (@ValueAnalyst1) 10/12/19, 3:54 AM
I wonder what the German government has to say about this.
Should companies be required to always fully fund future pension obligations?
This is a travesty:
VA: VW didn’t literally “short” the pension fund. What @jpr007 is saying is that VW has failed to keep up with the growing pension obligations in terms of setting aside cash to ensure such obligations are fully funded.
JPR007: But it is right there on their audited and published Balance Sheet.
If they had funded the Pension obligation that €33 billion should not be there on the Liability side of the Balance Sheet.
€33 billion.
And now they no longer have the Cash to fund it.
Images below.

=====
Quote
ValueAnalyst (@ValueAnalyst1) 10/1/19, 6:52 AM
Q4 2019 will be the last profitable quarter for many legacy automakers.
https://twitter.com/valueanalyst1/status/1178985955996442624

Quote
ValueAnalyst (@ValueAnalyst1) 10/12/19, 9:49 AM
If you think some of the stuff I tweet is edgy, you should see the stuff I type and delete...
https://twitter.com/valueanalyst1/status/1183016918816440322
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NeilT

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Re: Electric cars
« Reply #705 on: October 14, 2019, 12:01:50 PM »
Sig, VW is just following the EU government's.

https://www.forbes.com/sites/johnmauldin/2017/10/03/the-pension-storm-is-coming-to-europe-it-may-be-the-end-of-europe-as-we-know-it/amp/

The most high profile failures in the UK, recently, all have massively underfunded pension funds.

Governments allowed them to defer the payments and like good corporates they paid dividend out of workers pension contributions.

Who do you blame? The government's for allowing it or the companies for doing what the government's allow.
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NeilT

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Re: Electric cars
« Reply #706 on: October 14, 2019, 12:38:08 PM »
New Yorkers could face battery-charging station shortage for electric cars

Over time I've mentioned this demand/supply issue.  I've also mentioned what I saw in Dundee where every EV outlet, after 5pm, was plugged into a council vehicle..

Meanwhile, in Luton, we see the use of a street charging station....

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Robert A. Heinlein

Sigmetnow

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Re: Electric cars
« Reply #707 on: October 14, 2019, 03:04:14 PM »
Sig, VW is just following the EU government's.

https://www.forbes.com/sites/johnmauldin/2017/10/03/the-pension-storm-is-coming-to-europe-it-may-be-the-end-of-europe-as-we-know-it/amp/

The most high profile failures in the UK, recently, all have massively underfunded pension funds.

Governments allowed them to defer the payments and like good corporates they paid dividend out of workers pension contributions.

Who do you blame? The government's for allowing it or the companies for doing what the government's allow.

I’m not blaming anyone.  But as you say, there are signs that VW could be the next “high profile failure.”  Meaning the government will need to step in — at which point, pensions will hardly be their top concern.
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Sigmetnow

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Re: Electric cars
« Reply #708 on: October 14, 2019, 03:06:51 PM »
Mass-producing cars is hard!  Longread on the Dyson EV story.

It started with a dream in 1993 and ended due to economic uncertainty in 2019. This is how Dyson’s attempt to compete with Tesla foundered.

Inside the collapse of Dyson's electric car dream
Quote
The economics never added up. “What Dyson underestimated is the difficulty of getting into the car industry,” says Bailey. “There are significant sunk costs and very high capital costs.”

While the company reportedly set aside some £2.5 billion for the electric vehicle project, that pales into comparison with the £50 billion-plus Volkswagen is spending on producing its own electric vehicle – and it has pre-existing experience designing and manufacturing cars. Volkswagen has even recognised that amount isn’t enough, partnering with Ford to share costs and collaborate on ideas. “I think Dyson hugely underestimated what it costs,” Bailey adds. ...
https://www.wired.co.uk/article/dyson-electric-car-cancelled-inside-story
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NeilT

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Re: Electric cars
« Reply #709 on: October 14, 2019, 03:57:03 PM »
Which makes the Tesla story all that more compelling.
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Sigmetnow

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Re: Electric cars
« Reply #710 on: October 14, 2019, 05:07:00 PM »
Quote
Tesla Driver (@M_xalher) 10/13/19, 4:48 AM
Norway ministry of environment today says to DN business daily:
- EV benefits likely to continue in 2021 and beyond
- Will be “extremely careful” not to disturb current “exponential growth” of EV adaption.

https://www.dn.no/politikk/sveinung-rotevatn/regjeringen/klima/na-faller-ogsa-salget-av-dieselbiler-vi-skal-vare-uhyre-forsiktige-med-a-vri-pa-systemet/2-1-687379
https://twitter.com/m_xalher/status/1183303607812263937
Via Google translate:
Quote
Since 2010, Norway's population has increased by more than 440,000 people, while the diesel and gasoline car park has only increased by 13,000 cars. In the same period, the electric car park has gone from 2,000 cars in 2010 - to 250,000 cars today.

For the first time since 2010, diesel car sales are now also declining. In September, three out of four cars sold were either zero or low emission cars. This shows figures from the Norwegian Public Roads Administration and Statistics Norway.

Read also:  This year's electric car sales have already passed last year

- Up until now, it has been seen that many people buy an electric car as the number two car, but it has a short reach and they have kept their fossil car. Now we hear from many that they buy only electric car, and it is also shown in the statistics that it will be the primary car for many families, says Rotevatn.

The Government has a goal that all new passenger cars will be zero emission vehicles in 2025.
- There is exponential growth in the electric car market. So if it continues like now, then we will be in goal well before 2025, says Rotevatn.

Protected policy
Today's favorable electric car regime is protected in the government declaration until 2021. ...
https://www.dn.no/politikk/sveinung-rotevatn/regjeringen/klima/na-faller-ogsa-salget-av-dieselbiler-vi-skal-vare-uhyre-forsiktige-med-a-vri-pa-systemet/2-1-687379

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Quote
ValueAnalyst (@ValueAnalyst1) 10/14/19, 7:12 AM
Porsche releasing the base-model Taycan only five weeks after the higher-end models can only mean one thing...

Go all EVs etc etc.

https://twitter.com/valueanalyst1/status/1183702085860233216
[ /sarc ]
Tesla Driver  (@M_xalher) 10/14/19, 8:07 AM
Porsche Norway told DN business daily today that they have sold less than 300 Taycans. They expect more to sign up for the new “cheaper” version, but with normal extras it is still over NOK 1 million, so significantly above Model S.

https://www.dn.no/motor/elbil/porsche/nye-biler/el-porschen-blir-425000-kroner-billigere/2-1-687874
Google translate:  “Only two Taycan are registered in Norway so far….”

=====

Uniti announces $19,600 price for its small crowdfunded electric car, updates specs
https://electrek.co/2019/10/14/uniti-one-electric-car-price-specs/
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NeilT

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Re: Electric cars
« Reply #711 on: October 14, 2019, 07:42:27 PM »
8.5 miles per KW/h.  That's a pretty impressive claim.

But, at 12KW/h it still leaves the absolute best range at 100 miles.  Not sure if the additional 10KW/h of weight might change that figure (read 9/10 miles per KW/h), but I wouldn't bet on it.

Of course that 100 miles is very best case.  In town, mild spring, clear weather, no heating, aircon, wipers, lights etc.  Driving down the highway at 100km/h in mid summer late at night, with aircon on in a torrential downpour, could see it with as little as 50 miles of range.  Even then, this, I assume, would be with one passenger.  Add two more and that range could shrink even more.

I guess it remains to be seen whether this kind of niche vehicle really does have a market.  But the price for a vehicle which can barely get out of London in Winter in a storm,  with two passengers, is astronomically high.

Might have a place as a micro taxi  for the city though.  Whatever else it might be, this is firmly a city car.

I am very interested to see where it goes.  But even a smart car, with a sewing machine for an engine, can hit 95mph.  I know, I followed one out of Rome.

It's really great to see this level of innovation.  I just have a "pebble time" vision of it.
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Sigmetnow

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Re: Electric cars
« Reply #712 on: October 14, 2019, 09:02:51 PM »
GM
Economic impact of UAW strike balloons
October 13, 2019
Quote
DETROIT — Damage from the UAW's nearly monthlong strike against General Motors goes far beyond the plants that have been surrounded by picket lines, and recovery after it ends could take significant time for the dealerships, suppliers and other employers that depend on GM. Some small businesses have warned they're in danger of failing from the lost revenue.

By the end of last week, some 150,000 workers either had been laid off or had their pay reduced as the walkout "ballooned in scope," Anderson Economic Group said. The Michigan consulting firm's figure includes 75,000 supplier employees and 25,000 GM salaried workers. But it doesn't account for restaurants and shops in factory towns that are seeing sales slump as GM workers adjust to living on just $250 a week in strike pay.

Dealers had to tell irritated customers that some repairs couldn't be done because parts weren't available. ...

Workers have been laid off at suppliers including Adient, Cooper-Standard, American Axle & Manufacturing, Lear Corp., Magna, ZF North American, Busche Performance Products, Android Industries and others.

Phoenix Transit & Logistics, a trucking company in Dearborn, Mich., laid off almost its entire staff, owner Wael Tlaib told The New York Times. Tlaib said he pulled from his personal savings to keep the company running and was afraid he could lose the business as early as this week, the newspaper reported.

A manager at a Michigan supplier that has laid off more than half of its work force because of the strike told Automotive News that Anderson Economic Group's estimate of 75,000 supplier layoffs as of last week might be understated. The vast majority of the supplier's business is from GM. ...
https://www.autonews.com/manufacturing/economic-impact-uaw-strike-balloons

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The strike has already cost the company more than $1 billion.
“Credit Suisse estimated the loss could hit about $1.5 billion, and the Center for Automotive Research estimated the weekly costs to GM and the UAW strike fund at $450 million and $12 million, respectively.”
GM appeals directly to employees as strike losses mount, riling UAW
https://mobile.reuters.com/article/amp/idUSKBN1WQ1O1

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“GM’s current bond ratings (Moody’s: Baa3, S&P: BBB) sit in the last rung of the investment grade category. A move into junk status would materially increase GM’s funding costs, and an extended strike could be just what it takes for the ratings agencies to pull that trigger.”
GM’s Multiple Giveaways To The UAW Will Hamper Its Creditworthiness For Years To Come
https://www.forbes.com/sites/jimcollins/2019/10/11/gms-multiple-giveaways-to-the-uaw-will-hamper-its-creditworthiness-for-years-to-come/

—-
Will GM CEO Mary Barra survive this?  Will the company give in to UAW anti-EV demands that would lead GM even more quickly to obsolescence?  And those failing suppliers support manufacturers other than GM....
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Sigmetnow

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Re: Electric cars
« Reply #713 on: October 14, 2019, 09:36:00 PM »
Founder of Electric Vehicle Startup Faraday Future Files for Bankruptcy
October 14, 2019,
Quote
Jia Yueting, an entrepreneur who ran up billions of dollars in personal debts trying to build a business empire in China, has filed for bankruptcy in the U.S. with plans to turn over his latest venture, an electric vehicle startup, to creditors.

In a proposed debt-restructuring plan filed in federal court in Wilmington, Delaware, Jia will use his ownership stake in Los Angeles-based Faraday & Future Inc. to set up a creditor trust to repay his debts.

Jia faces $2.3 billion in claims, according to the plan. In a statement on Faraday’s website, the company said Jia’s debts were owed to creditors in China.

The plan is also designed to help Faraday put together “equity financing efforts and prepare for an IPO,” according to the statement. Depending on the value of that proposed initial public offering, creditors may recover from 49% to 100% of what they are owed, according to reorganization plan documents filed in court.

Faraday is trying to develop an electric vehicle for sale in the U.S. and China. The company recently hired Carsten Breitfeld, BMW AG veteran, to take over the chief executive officer role from Jia. …


In his bankruptcy filing, Jia warned that his IPO plans for Faraday may not raise as much as projected. That was due in part to “negative press related to his debts and an investigation by the China Securities Regulatory Commission into the delisting from the Shenzhen Stock Exchange” of a company where Jia served as chief executive officer.
https://www.bloomberg.com/amp/news/articles/2019-10-14/founder-of-electric-vehicle-startup-faraday-files-for-bankruptcy
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TerryM

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Re: Electric cars
« Reply #714 on: October 15, 2019, 03:50:19 PM »
NeilT
I'd been very impressed by the early diesel Smart cars. As a one car family my wifes input was required & she was horrified that I'd even consider one. Swapping the diesel for gas was a terrible move.
Most of us don't live in London sized cities so the tiny EV might make an excellent "city car". I'd considered a Leaf at one point, but EVs aren't terribly practical as an only car when no home power source is available.
For those with a two car garage, I can't see why the Unit1 wouldn't make a decent 2nd car, of course I also believed that the diesel Smart car would prove to be far more popular than it was. I'd still buy a used diesel Smart if I had a place to park it. :)
Terry

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Re: Electric cars
« Reply #715 on: October 15, 2019, 04:14:23 PM »
E-car platform with fuel cell option
In addition to MEB and PPE, the VW Group is developing a third electric car kit that can also be equipped with a fuel cell. For luxury cars and commercial vehicles.
VW boss Diess does not want to know much about hydrogen cars yet and is officially fully committed to battery electric vehicles (BEV). In a first wave, the Group wants to build 15 million electric cars based on the modular electrical construction kit (MEB), for more powerful vehicles (more than 306 hp), Audi and Porsche jointly develop a second kit, the Premium Platform Electric (PPE). But the development of a vehicle architecture that can draw its energy not only from batteries, but also from a fuel cell, is already running. It is called Modular Platform Electric (MPE).

"The VW Group is developing a modular platform e-mobility for our cars from the B-segment upwards, which can be used across all brands," said Michael Jost, Head of Strategy of the Volkswagen brand and Group Strategy Product, the Automobilwoche.

Building set with overlaps?
This sounds confusing at first, because so far the Modular Electrical Box (MEB) for cars up to the B segment (middle class, comparable to the VW Passat) as well as the Premium Platform Electric (PPE) were known, which Porsche developed together with Audi. At the MEB stands the ID.-family; the first is the ID.3, which should roll to the first customers from 2020 onwards. The PPE should be ready for series production in 2023. First comes the first PPE Porsche, the successor to the Macan. Audi uses the PPE not first for an SUV, but for a four-door coupe, the size of an A5 Sportback. Internally, the Ingolstadt designate the competitors for BMWs i4 as E6.

The PPE should also carry more, larger and stronger vehicles, so cars from the B segment, perhaps even the successor of Audi E-Tron GT and Porsche Taycan, although technically largely identical, but not based on a separate kit.
 
New architecture is fuel cell compatible
So if PPE and MPE are both meant for cars from the B-segment, what's the difference? Apparently, the MPE is also intended for the use of fuel cells. For in the Automobilwoche Jost also relativized the negative attitude of VW CEO Herbert Diess to the fuel cell: "In the long run, roughly estimated at the end of the next decade, hydrogen is additionally considered as an energy source for electrically driven vehicles." And further, Jost said about the MPE: "Scalability extends not only to the length or width of the cars, but also to the application areas of volume, premium and luxury."

The fuel cell is needed for all vehicles that are particularly heavy (and correspondingly strong) or that should be able to get very far. Say: luxury cars, but also commercial vehicles. This fits Jost's description of the platform, whose "scalability extends not only on the length or width of the cars, but also on the application areas of volume, premium and luxury".

Both luxury travel cars and commercial vehicles save the fuel cell huge and heavy batteries. At the moment the ID.3., Whose smallest battery has only 48 kWh capacity, weighs about 1.700 kilograms. Current e-cars the size of an Audi E-Tron or Mercedes EQC weigh even more than 2.5 tons. With the largest battery that the kit allows (111 kWh), an MEB car would also come in well over two tons. The practice range would still not be much higher than 500 kilometers.

This is easier to visualize with the fuel cell drive, the fast refueling of 400 to 500 kilos reach by filling the hydrogen tank would be added.

Audi plans fuel cell hybrid
The development of the hydrogen drive is located in the Volkswagen Group at Audi - the MPE would then probably get fuel cells from Ingolstadt, without the new kit would be intended only for the Ingolstadt. Specifically, the development of MPE platforms for commercial vehicles is hardly imaginable for the Ingolstadt, the fuel cell already. In 2018, Audi already announced a patent exchange for Hyundai fuel cell technology, which should accelerate the series development, and announced a luxury-class SUV with fuel cell as the first Audi small series from the beginning of the next decade, ie from about 2021. Hans-Joachim Rothenpieler, Development Board in Ingolstadt, also confirmed at the beginning of July (2019) that Audi is working intensively on fuel cell hybrids. "The combination of hydrogen and battery electric drive is an interesting option for large cars that are used on long distances - about 600 to 800 kilometers".

The combination could be more or less hybrid designed: A battery needs each fuel cell car to cache the hydrogen generated electricity. But enough for less than 5 kWh. Larger batteries can serve as in the Mercedes GLC F-Cell to drive purely electric and then recharge them on the grid - so that would be fuel cell hybrids in most user profiles for the vast majority of time like an e-car on the road, the fuel cell would be used only on longer distances.

It would also be conceivable, however, to always put the fuel cell into operation while driving and to take the energy for the engine out of the battery, because it can cope better with the spontaneous power requirements for brisk acceleration maneuvers. And every intermediate stage is also conceivable, depending on the size of the battery. The larger the battery, the more the vehicle can recuperate (generate electricity with excess kinetic energy).

A plugin hybrid, which is as much as possible with mains power in the battery, carries the expensive fuel cell technology most of the time for free. If only the fuel cell charges the battery, the losses in power generation are accepted at any time during operation.


CONCLUSION
From "either or" (battery-electric vs. fuel-cell), in the future more and more will become "both and" - in the same vehicle type, but not all. Accordingly, in the future there could be purely battery-powered cars for shorter distances and travel or commercial vehicles, which also have a fuel cell on board. The concept could also change in the future - from plug-in hybrids that use hydrogen only for longer distances or fuel cell cars that need the smallest batteries for buffering and recuperation. In between are vehicles that use batteries in the size of today's plug-in hybrid models (about 15 kWh) as a fast, powerful power supply and supply this mainly with the fuel cell. They should drive like BEV, but could refuel like cars with combustion engine today.

Audi develops within the Volkswagen Group on the fuel cell drive, VW on a scalable construction kit (MPE) for it, based on the luxury travel cars larger than today's Passat, but can also be based on commercial vehicles. While the first models will be rolled out on the premium platform Electric (PPE) 2023 jointly developed by Audi and Porsche, MPE cars are expected to be available from 2030 onwards

Should we use hydrogen in the future?
Definitely! The fuel cell combines potentially CO2-free driving and range for refueling.

TerryM

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Re: Electric cars
« Reply #716 on: October 15, 2019, 04:57:46 PM »
^^
Google Translate?
Terry

Sigmetnow

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Re: Electric cars
« Reply #717 on: October 15, 2019, 08:00:47 PM »
Here is more on the study quoted in Reply #703 above.  (Generation Z are those born between 1995-2012.)
Gen Z is leading the charge on EVs.
Quote
While several EV-focused Gen Z studies... suggested Gen Zers didn’t intend to purchase EVs, West Monroe’s study found that, in practice, they are. One-third of Gen Z vehicle owners surveyed by West Monroe currently own an electric vehicle, notably more than any other generation (19% of millennials, 14% of Gen Xers and 6% of Baby Boomers). Gen Z is also most likely to consider employer-sponsored benefits that reward sustainable practices as “extremely important” in their selection of where to work.

Among business owners who’ve integrated EVs into their fleet, half report that EVs now constitute 50% or more of their total fleet
https://www.westmonroepartners.com/en/Insights/Newsletters/Gen-Z-Leads-Electric-Vehicle-Charge
Study data, in chart form: 
WestMonroe Partners — STUDY: https://www.westmonroepartners.com/Insights/White-Papers/Who-is-Leading-The-Charge-on-Electric-Vehicles

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2020 Chevrolet Bolt EV: How GM’s only electric car stacks up after 3 years
Quote
Its range has risen from 238 to 259 miles, from a battery pack whose energy capacity is up from 60 to 66 kilowatt-hours, due to the use of a new and more energy-dense lithium-ion cell from LG Chem.

There is some hope for those who’d like a more competitive Bolt EV. Recent spy shots published by other outlets have indicated the 2021 Chevrolet Bolt EV might get revised seats, dashboard, and exterior styling, and perhaps other changes under the skin as well.

… GM has sold about the same number of Bolt EVs as it did Chevrolet Volt plug-in hybrids: roughly 20,000 per year. A cynic might say that’s the number required to keep GM in regulatory compliance in the growing number of states with zero-emission vehicle sales mandates—led, of course, by California. …
https://www.greencarreports.com/news/1125510_2020-chevrolet-bolt-ev-how-gm-s-only-electric-car-stacks-up-after-3-years

——
Even the biased business media are starting to understand.
Cheaper Porsche Taycan 4S Is Not A Tesla Killer: Here's Why
https://www.ibtimes.com/cheaper-porsche-taycan-4s-not-tesla-killer-heres-why-2846110

—-
It’s a personal bankruptcy, not the Faraday Future company.  If that matters.
The man who wanted to challenge Tesla is bankrupt
https://www.abacusnews.com/tech/man-who-wanted-challenge-tesla-bankrupt/article/3032984

—-
Political concerns? Of course.  But how much of the decision was simply because VW can’t afford to spend that money right now?
Volkswagen postpones decision on $1.4billion Turkey car plant
Quote
Ankara: Volkswagen AG’s management board has decided to delay a decision on giving the go-ahead on a 1.3 billion-euro ($1.4 billion) car plant due to the political upheaval caused by the country’s military action in northern Syria.

The planned Turkey investment, which would expand VW’s total number of factories worldwide to 123, would bundle production of the VW Passat and Skoda Superb mid-sized sedans in a move to create a bridgehead to grow sales across Eastern Europe and the Middle East. The world’s biggest carmaker has struggled to compete with Asian rivals in those markets due to high manufacturing cost at its factories in Western Europe.
https://gulfnews.com/business/volkswagen-postpones-decision-on-14billion-turkey-car-plant-1.67144142
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philopek

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Re: Electric cars
« Reply #718 on: October 15, 2019, 10:15:24 PM »
^^
Google Translate?
Terry

Yes and there are few turns and tweaks but when reading it again, I thought that it is well enough translated so that I don't have to rewrite the entire article from scratch into 5 languages of all the fora where i posted it.

Does it matter would be my next question?

If imperfect translations are not welcome I won't post any further translated articles of course, it was not my intention to offend native english speakers with bad translations.

I thought this could be welcome because it not only points into the right direction that will be a tech-mix depending on use cases, but it's also something I'm preaching for years to all the one sided and/or narrow minded folks who choose and favor one approach, make it a religion and
discard any other, often under false pretenses.

Last question, just in case that it's ok to use google translator to translate lengthy text, why mention it, it sounds a bit condescending while for me translating tools are a gift for better sharing across language barriers.
« Last Edit: October 15, 2019, 10:29:01 PM by philopek »

Sigmetnow

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Re: Electric cars
« Reply #719 on: October 15, 2019, 10:27:27 PM »
^^
Google Translate?
Terry

Yes and there are few turns but by reading it i thought it well enough translated to not having to rewrite it from scratch.

Does it matter would be my question because if non-perfect translations are not welcome I won't post any anymore, I thought this could be welcome because it goes non only into the right direction of a tech-mix depending on use cases but it's also something i'm preaching for years to all the on sided and/or narrow minded folks who choose and favour one approach, make it a religion and
discard any other, often under false pretenses.

Last question, just in case that it's ok to use google translator to translate lengthy text, why mention it, it sounds a bit condescending while for me translating tools are a gift for better sharing across language barriers.

Neven may feel differently, but I think:
- Google translate is ok, but mention that’s what was used
- always supply the original-language link, so readers know where the information came from, and can use their own translator if they wish (or read in the original language!)
- additionally posting the google-translate link itself is optional, but is nice if it is not too cumbersome (very long).
People who say it cannot be done should not interrupt those who are doing it.

oren

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Re: Electric cars
« Reply #720 on: October 16, 2019, 12:05:16 AM »
I thought the translation was good enough, even though it was clear the original was in another language. And the article was quite interesting.
OTOH, I honestly doubt the future economic viability of the fuel cell. Time will tell of course.

KiwiGriff

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Re: Electric cars
« Reply #721 on: October 16, 2019, 11:12:42 AM »
Fuel cells for cars are a dead end.
Hydrogen production, storage and compression  is inefficient use of power and always will be because unalterable laws of physics .
No infrastructure extremely costly to provide .
Limited charge capacity of refueling stations.
Limited life expectancy of the cells themselves .
Last but not lest.
Hydrogen is  highly explosive as recent events have proven .
These factors are uncontroversial and easy to work out if you are not blinded by your  dislike of battery electric cars. 
 

Sigmetnow

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Re: Electric cars
« Reply #722 on: October 16, 2019, 04:27:03 PM »
Ouch. The new Porsche Taycan 4S model:
Quote
https://twitter.com/tesla_truth/status/1184140372340953088
Image below.
- 133 miles of WLTP range is 118 miles EPA range
- by the way this is Porsche’s own website
the real world range is probably much worse

——-
Quote
Earl of Frunkpuppy (@28delayslater) 10/15/19, 8:02 AM
Things that will slow down EV transition - high priced / low range poor offerings by automakers with no charging network

Things that won’t slow down the EV transition - tweeting about how traditional automakers are making high priced / low range cars with no charging network
https://twitter.com/28delayslater/status/1184077046814785542

——-
Quote
João Neves (@JooNeve25482012) 10/15/19, 6:15 PM
@GuyT3sla   A few days ago a family with two young kids approached me in a street charger. They were driving a brand new I-Pace. They needed to charge but they were still waiting for the key-card that activates the charger to be sent to them... So they were hopelessly stranded... I pity
 them so I just let them use my card so they could charge. They didn’t know how to do it... I know, I been there. I helped the the best I could, not easy. It is a quite complex procedure for an I-Pace... but hey! They were happily proud. The kids: hey mister this is a Jaguar!!!
- So the point is: let them be. We need more BEVs on the streets and not all will be a Tesla. Given the short timeline to keep climate crisis under wraps we need more electric cars out there, a whole lot more! And Tesla alone can’t do it! So...
https://twitter.com/jooneve25482012/status/1184231426239143936
« Last Edit: October 16, 2019, 04:33:52 PM by Sigmetnow »
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NeilT

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Re: Electric cars
« Reply #723 on: October 17, 2019, 02:33:38 AM »
Fuel cells for cars are a dead end.

I was doubtful about that aroundabout a decade or so ago.  But I also worked for the largest hydrogen producer in the world.  So got a birds eye view of what that really meant.

Then there is the storage issue for fuel stations.  Underground is not a good move, Hydrogen is lighter than air, it rises.  So the storage tanks would probably be best overground.  Probably not the best viewed thing for every fuel station in the city.

There are huge issues with storing Hydrogen both in the vehicles and also in the storage tanks.  Liquid hydrogen possibly, but it brings it's own issues.

So, for normal road vehicles, probably a dead duck.

For much heavier vehicles it is somewhat different.  For shipping Battery Electric is never going to fly.  The big container ships burn millions of litres on a journey from China to Rotterdam.  That is an incredible amount of energy.  Something will have to be done there.

Cars and bikes?  Much as I have resisted it, it is far more efficient to just pour the electricity into them and store it there than it is to try and make some form of intermediate fuel to burn in the extremely inefficient internal combustion engines.  Although I do recognise that fuel cell vehicles tend to use a turbine to run a generator which is far more efficient.  Just not efficient enough.
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KiwiGriff

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Re: Electric cars
« Reply #724 on: October 17, 2019, 04:00:49 AM »
I agree that shipping is another issue.
Hydrogen  leaks no matter how you store it. It has a high likely hood of exploding when it does leak. Ships are the worst case for unsafe fuels you can not get out and walk when shite goes wrong. Ammonia or even manufactured methane would be  safer as a renewable sourced shipping fuel .
Even then  turbine  or ice/ electric is probably a more reliable and cost effective solution for ship propulsion than fuel cells .
https://cleantechnica.com/2019/03/22/the-potential-of-ammonia-as-carbon-free-fuel-major-new-research-project-at-the-university-of-aarhus/

Bloody dog decided to bail up a boar half way though typing this.
40kg of wild pork for the freezer.  :D

blumenkraft

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Re: Electric cars
« Reply #725 on: October 17, 2019, 07:58:51 PM »
I bet there will be awesome use cases for power to gas.

Transportation ain't it!
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rboyd

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Re: Electric cars
« Reply #726 on: October 19, 2019, 12:51:06 AM »
China EV sales fall 34.2% year over year in September

The large reduction in subsidies has hit the Chinese EV market like a brick wall. Will be interesting to see how long it takes to recover:

Quote
What rocked supporters of the EV industry earlier this week was a report from the China Association of Automobile Manufacturers that sales of new-energy vehicles, a description that include full electric and hybrids, fell 34.2% in September compared with the same month last year.

Quote
A similar shock has rocked mining companies producing the raw materials that go into an EV’s batteries, such as lithium, cobalt, graphite and nickel.

Boom-like conditions which prevailed last year have turned into a bust with a number of lithium mining projects in Australia slowing output, delaying expansion plans, or being shelved until prices recover.

Quote
On a global basis, Macquarie said the slowdown in China was being offset by increased EV sales in Europe and the U.S. but the overall picture was of “sales growth screeching almost to a halt at 8% growth in 2019” versus 52.6% year-on-year growth between 2015 and 2018. “Quite the deceleration,” the bank said.

Perhaps more important than the EV sales slowdown, according to Macquarie, was the demonstration that demand for EVs is “no longer bullet-proof”.

https://www.forbes.com/sites/timtreadgold/2019/10/17/demand-crash-on-the-ev-highway-hits-battery-metals/#580dac973321

KiwiGriff

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Re: Electric cars
« Reply #727 on: October 19, 2019, 02:47:46 AM »
the overall picture was of “sales growth screeching almost to a halt at 8% growth in 2019”

Screeching almost to a halt.
Only 8%  growth.
The sale of ICE cars in china has actually crashed  into negative numbers not just suffered a  drop to 8% growth.
Click bait headline.


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Re: Electric cars
« Reply #728 on: October 19, 2019, 11:39:22 AM »
These figures need to be very carefully viewed. There is one critical factor that is never highlighted in these reports.

Quote
sales of new-energy vehicles, a description that include full electric and hybrids

So, when we look at BEV alone,





https://www.jato.com/global-sales-of-pure-electric-vehicles-soar-by-92-in-h1-2019/

The reality is that plug in hybrid sales have fallen through the floor and it is being used to suggest that there is no demand for BEV.

If you see an article talking about EV sales, research it, because in 100% of the cases I have seen they are as above.
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Re: Electric cars
« Reply #729 on: October 19, 2019, 11:48:32 AM »
Whilst we do own Zoe we are doing our best to lend her to other people.

Davidstow Electric Vehicle Hire has now been "officially" launched with great fanfare!

https://twitter.com/jim_hunt/status/1184422529311629313

If ever you happen to find yourself in urgent need of some electric wheels whilst in North Cornwall please do give us a call!
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Sigmetnow

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Re: Electric cars
« Reply #730 on: October 19, 2019, 05:11:13 PM »
- Since the beginning of the decade, a partial list of EV failures includes Bright Automotive, AMP, Aptera, Coda, Detroit Electric, Fisker Automotive and LeEco.
- While some of the names on the list were seriously underfunded, others generated plenty of cash.
- Fisker, one of the most notable flame-outs, raised more than $2 billion in cash
- Bollinger and Rivian are companies to watch.
Electric car start-ups — once seen as threat — now struggle to survive
https://www.cnbc.com/2019/10/19/electric-car-start-ups-once-seen-as-threat-now-struggle-to-survive.html
(Others who have announced EVs, then pulled back: Apple, Dyson, Faraday Future.)

Quote
Elon Musk (@elonmusk) 10/15/19, 6:06 PM
So much respect for those doing high volume manufacturing. It’s insanely hard, but you make a real thing that people value. My hat is off to you … 
https://twitter.com/elonmusk/status/1184228977596129280

=====
U.S.:  A fleet of 40 Tesla Model 3s is creating an all-electric taxi service in Madison, Wisconsin
https://electrek.co/2019/10/16/tesla-model-3-taxi-fleet-madison/

—-
Volvo unveils electric XC40 Recharge: 250 miles of range, dual motors and more
https://electrek.co/2019/10/16/volvo-electric-xc40-recharge/

Also discussed briefly in: https://techcastdaily.com/2019/10/17/gf3-model-y-plaid-updates-iihs-ev-taxis-volvo-xc40-uaw-gm-reach-tentative-agreement-10-16-19/

—-
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rboyd

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Re: Electric cars
« Reply #731 on: October 19, 2019, 11:38:06 PM »
NeilT, the numbers you use for BEV sales are for the first half of 2019, before the cut to Chinese subsidies AND taking in the huge June surge to beat the subsidy cuts. The second half comparisons will be very, very different.

I hope that China recovers quickly, given its huge weight within global BEV sales, but I think that realism is required.

rboyd

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Re: Electric cars
« Reply #732 on: October 19, 2019, 11:42:57 PM »
Not specifically an EV topic, but the move back to SUVs both increases GHG emissions AND makes it harder for the move to BEVs given the greater weight (and therefore battery requirement for acceptable range) os SUVs. A tax on the weight of a car would be a very good thing right now. All the ICE efficiency improvements of the past years has gone into more weight and energy sucking add-ons.

A combination of more BEVs and more ICE SUVs may lead to continued increases in ICE oil consumption, as detailed in the article:

Quote
With major automakers announcing new electric car models at a regular pace, there has been growing interest in recent years about the impact of electric vehicles on the overall car market, as well as global oil demand, carbon emissions, and air pollution.

Carmakers plan more than 350 electric models by 2025, mostly small-to-medium variants. Plans from the top 20 car manufacturers suggest a tenfold increase in annual electric car sales, to 20 million vehicles a year by 2030, from 2 million in 2018. Starting from a low base, less than 0.5% of the total car stock, this growth in electric vehicles means that nearly 7% of the car fleet will be electric by 2030.

Meanwhile, the conventional car market has been showing signs of fatigue, with sales declining in 2018 and 2019, due to slowing economies. Global sales of internal combustion engine (ICE) cars fell by around 2% to under 87 million in 2018, the first drop since the 2008 recession. Data for 2019 points to a continuation of this trend, led by China, where sales in the first half of the year fell nearly 14%, and India where they declined by 10%.

These trends have created a narrative of an imminent peak in passenger car oil demand, and related CO2 emissions, and the beginning of the end for the “ICE age.” As passenger cars consume nearly one-quarter of global oil demand today, does this signal the approaching erosion of a pillar of global oil consumption?

A more silent structural change may put this conclusion into question: consumers are buying ever larger and less fuel-efficient cars, known as Sport Utility Vehicles (SUVs).

This dramatic shift towards bigger and heavier cars has led to a doubling of the share of SUVs over the last decade. As a result, there are now over 200 million SUVs around the world, up from about 35 million in 2010, accounting for 60% of the increase in the global car fleet since 2010. Around 40% of annual car sales today are SUVs, compared with less than 20% a decade ago.

https://www.iea.org/newsroom/news/2019/october/growing-preference-for-suvs-challenges-emissions-reductions-in-passenger-car-mark.html

blumenkraft

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Re: Electric cars
« Reply #733 on: October 20, 2019, 05:41:37 AM »
A tax on the weight of a car would be a very good thing right now.

Yes, we could tax all the 9000 consumer products that are especially CO2 consuming. Or we can just have a carbon tax. Same effect, but 8999 fewer fights. ;)
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Re: Electric cars
« Reply #734 on: October 20, 2019, 08:33:03 AM »
Electric cars weigh more yet are more fuel efficient .
Tax what you want to reduce .
CO2 emissions from fuel usage  is the issue not heavy cars so tax the fuel that emits the  CO2.

A major problem in many jurisdictions is tax regimes biased towards trucks.
Here in NZ  light trucks like a hilux are considered work focused commercial vehicles and do not attract fringe benefit tax on income. Once that may have been so but modern double cab trucks are now considered a car replacement by consumers.
The USA I understand also has distortions that also skew consumers towards Trucks.
Such distortions need to go.


 

oren

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Re: Electric cars
« Reply #735 on: October 20, 2019, 11:07:03 AM »
Agreed, tax the carbon aggressively (including carbon in electricity production) and most economic decisions will fall in line.

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Re: Electric cars
« Reply #736 on: October 20, 2019, 01:08:43 PM »
Tax carbon emissions, not carbon or energy consumption. That way the impact of the carbon tax on the people is minimized and the potential technologies maximized.
I am an energy reservoir seemingly intent on lowering entropy for self preservation.

NeilT

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Re: Electric cars
« Reply #737 on: October 20, 2019, 03:43:38 PM »
NeilT, the numbers you use for BEV sales are for the first half of 2019, before the cut to Chinese subsidies AND taking in the huge June surge to beat the subsidy cuts. The second half comparisons will be very, very different.

I hope that China recovers quickly, given its huge weight within global BEV sales, but I think that realism is required.

True but I can't find any stats for Q3 2019 for BEV only.  I can only find the homogenised stats with Hybrids.

As far as I can find out, Hybrid sales continue in free fall and BEV continue to grow.

Until we get BEV only stats, the whole point is moot.  Because Hybrid sales are dropping faster than BEV sales can fill the gap.  Hence the drop in "EV" sales.

Also Tesla's, in China, have been under high taxation. The tax differential between Giga3 and US manufacture, added to the remaining subsidies, should rocket Tesla sales in 2020.  If not in Q4 2019 already.

It is a make haste slowly situation.  The news is trumpeting the slowdown of EV sales by lumping in Hybrids.  They did that in Q1 and the H1 stats have proved that it is an oversimplification.

I will be content to review the situation in Q1 2020 and see what really happened.
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Re: Electric cars
« Reply #738 on: October 20, 2019, 04:09:48 PM »
Agreed, tax the carbon aggressively (including carbon in electricity production) and most economic decisions will fall in line.

Yes but oversimplifying it just means that the voters see TAX and nothing else.  For instance you say electricity.  So when I live next to a wind farm, do I pay less tax?  No I don't because I get my power from the grid and the tax is levied on all users of said grid.

So if my local community pays into renewable energy, but I get to share the costs of coal by being levied via grid level taxes, what am I going to do about it?

Vote for Trump?

It all feels so very easy doesn't it.  But in the end we live in a democracy and people have a vote.

In the end it is easier to keep on doing what we are doing, taxing the use of the fuels, taxing the use of the vehicles and subsidising an option to be more responsible about energy use.

Electricity generation?  Whole other ball of wax.
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Re: Electric cars
« Reply #739 on: October 20, 2019, 04:35:28 PM »
Agreed, tax the carbon aggressively (including carbon in electricity production) and most economic decisions will fall in line.

Yes but oversimplifying it just means that the voters see TAX and nothing else.  For instance you say electricity.  So when I live next to a wind farm, do I pay less tax?  No I don't because I get my power from the grid and the tax is levied on all users of said grid.

So if my local community pays into renewable energy, but I get to share the costs of coal by being levied via grid level taxes, what am I going to do about it?

Vote for Trump?

It all feels so very easy doesn't it.  But in the end we live in a democracy and people have a vote.

In the end it is easier to keep on doing what we are doing, taxing the use of the fuels, taxing the use of the vehicles and subsidising an option to be more responsible about energy use.

Electricity generation?  Whole other ball of wax.

You are basically the worst person.

A carbon tax is obviously the solution.

Everything you say is total nonsense.
big time oops

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Re: Electric cars
« Reply #741 on: October 20, 2019, 07:53:59 PM »

You are basically the worst person.

A carbon tax is obviously the solution.


Really?

You must lead a sheltered life.  I meet people who think that you should be locked up for your views on a regular basis.

Personally, though I disagree with your approach, I am 100% on board with the goal.

If you think that is the worst person, you have a nasty, horrible and evil surprise waiting for you when you emerge into the world of rabid climate change denial.

I'm really sad about that statement above.  Not because it bothers me in the slightest, I've been called worse on WUWT, they reckoned hanging was too good for me. I'm sad because you are so wedded to that ideal that you will demonise anyone who explains why it won't work.

If it is so simple, why has it not already been done?

Right, because people with a vote do not often vote for more taxation.

Ask yourself this.  With everything else he did,  why didn't Obama do it?

Ask yourself this also.  If you insist on taxing Carbon, what are you going to do when the tax on the CO2 used to charge most EV's kills electric vehicles. Because, today, EV owners are getting a free ride on the CO2 they emit to drive.  I happen to think this is right, because we need this technology.

It is far too late standing there going OOOPS when your EV initiative crashes because you taxed it to death. Just because your own political leanings lead you to that conclusion.

Try thinking laterally.  All that vertical thinking has just given you a greater height to fall from.  If you don't believe me, just take a look at the ER soul searching going on in the UK today.
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Re: Electric cars
« Reply #743 on: October 20, 2019, 10:41:11 PM »
A tax on the weight of a car would be a very good thing right now.

Yes, we could tax all the 9000 consumer products that are especially CO2 consuming. Or we can just have a carbon tax. Same effect, but 8999 fewer fights. ;)

Agreed, based on the GHG emission effects. I hate the term "tax", seems the deniers have won with their effort to brand it a tax. I believe in "fee and equal dividend" which makes the rich (as the highest GHG emitters) pay the most and receive the same amount back in dividend as everyone else - a winning electoral formula given its progressive income redistribution effect. Funny how the so-called "progressive" and "eco-friendly" parties seem to work so hard not to provide this as a choice (a bit like "Obama-care" vs. Medicare for all). My own country's Liberals seem to be experts at this.

An outright ban on certain "unconscionable" luxuries such as corporate jets and yachts would also be a good move to properly share the pain of a transition and gain mass support.

nanning

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Re: Electric cars
« Reply #744 on: October 21, 2019, 07:14:15 AM »
<snip>
You are basically the worst person.

<snip>

Everything you say is total nonsense.

How can you write these words on this forum?  How can you utter these words anywhere?  ???

It would be good if you would come up with some apologies GoSouthYoungins. Please be kind and humane.
Sorry for off-topic post.
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blumenkraft

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Re: Electric cars
« Reply #745 on: October 21, 2019, 04:46:49 PM »
I hate the term "tax"

Then call it a survival dividend. ;)

However we call it, it has to be done.
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wili

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Re: Electric cars
« Reply #746 on: October 21, 2019, 05:04:33 PM »
I tend to agree with @socketwench:

Quote
I don't want self-driving cars.

I want boring things like public transit that comes so regularly you don't have to check a schedule.

...I want cities that aren't built around [f'n] cars-as-default.
"A force de chercher de bonnes raisons, on en trouve; on les dit; et après on y tient, non pas tant parce qu'elles sont bonnes que pour ne pas se démentir." Choderlos de Laclos "You struggle to come up with some valid reasons, then cling to them, not because they're good, but just to not back down."

GoSouthYoungins

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Re: Electric cars
« Reply #747 on: October 21, 2019, 05:04:58 PM »
You must lead a sheltered life.

No. Just no. (Likely projection.)

Personally, though I disagree with your approach, I am 100% on board with the goal.

If you think that is the worst person, you have a nasty, horrible and evil surprise waiting for you when you emerge into the world of rabid climate change denial.

I know and work with climate skeptics ever day. I too am a bit of a skeptic. I think there is more uncertainty than ppl think. But certainty isn't require to make logical choices.

I have less problems with those who think there isn't a problem, than I do with those who think there is a problem, but are unwilling to argue for the most logical solution.

If it is so simple, why has it not already been done?

Because people like you, who realize that it is the best solution, won't argue for it.

Ask yourself this.  With everything else he did,  why didn't Obama do it?

Obama took the path of least resistance on everything. He made no real meaningful change. Once he got elected he just did the easy things and cruised. He, doer of blow, didn't even fight to legalize weed.

Ask yourself this also.  If you insist on taxing Carbon, what are you going to do when the tax on the CO2 used to charge most EV's kills electric vehicles. Because, today, EV owners are getting a free ride on the CO2 they emit to drive.  I happen to think this is right, because we need this technology.

THIS IS EXACTLY THE POINT!!! A carbon tax evenly and fairly penalizes emissions. If EVs are hurt by this, they should be. We need market solutions like a carbon tax. Supporting EVs because they are green in theory is stupid. Supporting ANYTHING because it is green in theory is stupid. Tax that problem, and then see what ends up making sense.



How can you write these words on this forum?  How can you utter these words anywhere?  ???

It is fine. I think Neil is the worst. He reciprocates similar feelings. It is fine.

I didn't say I'm going to try to make his life worse in any way. I wish him no ill will. I just think he is intellectually bankrupt, and the epitome of the mental rot of the "thinking" class of society.

I am sorry that it offends you. I'll try to be less harsh.
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nanning

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Re: Electric cars
« Reply #748 on: October 21, 2019, 06:22:01 PM »
Thank you for your kind response GoSouthYoungins :).
But:

Quote
I have less problems with those who think there isn't a problem, than I do with those who think there is a problem, but are unwilling to argue for the most logical solution.

I don't know what to think of this.
"It is preoccupation with possessions, more than anything else, that prevents us from living freely and nobly" - Bertrand Russell
   Simple: minimize your possessions and be free and kind    It's just a mindset.       Refugees welcome

GoSouthYoungins

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Re: Electric cars
« Reply #749 on: October 21, 2019, 07:28:41 PM »
Thank you for your kind response GoSouthYoungins :).
But:

Quote
I have less problems with those who think there isn't a problem, than I do with those who think there is a problem, but are unwilling to argue for the most logical solution.

I don't know what to think of this.

Fair enough. Some ppl just don't have the world view to accept anthropogenic climate change (or to even really know what that means). The masses are not learned, and they never have been. This is not a/the problem.

People who do understand what is going on and the market mechanism that can solve our collective challenges, but do not seek to advocate for them...they are the problem.

"In the end, we will remember not the words of our enemies, but the silence of our friends." —Martin Luther King
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