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nanning

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Re: Electric cars
« Reply #800 on: November 05, 2019, 06:31:24 PM »
I think we all agree that microplastic is a large and growing problem.
Any solution yet to the microplastic emissions from electric cars' tyres?
...

I think it is logical to assume that the the smaller, low-rolling-resistance tires that come with an EV are far less polluting than beefy ICE tires.  So, again, your generic hatred of cars is misplaced here.

Yes smaller tires pollute an X amount of anti-living-nature stuff we absolutely have ot stop producing, and bigger tires pollute X+(Y>0)

What have I written that makes you write that I have a "generic hatred of cars"? Or was that just a frustrated lash-out from you? I can imagine how hard it must be if one's whole 'dream'- 'fantasy progress'- world is falling apart because the technology cannot be made really sustainable. It uses up non-renewable resources, gives off toxic microplastic and clogs the roads so a lot of cyclists are in danger (many get killed by cars). It is a very high energy-using piece of private motor assistance.

This is not just about you but also a behaviour I observe.
I think perhaps many people are clutching to the last modernistic straws to stay in the well-known stable unchanging 'bubble'. A lot of them seem to forget the other humans in the process (i.e. the ones who can't buy a car).

No insult or hostility is intended with this post of me, Sigmetnow.
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Sigmetnow

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Re: Electric cars
« Reply #801 on: November 05, 2019, 07:38:11 PM »
...
 It uses up non-renewable resources, gives off toxic microplastic and clogs the roads so a lot of cyclists are in danger (many get killed by cars). It is a very high energy-using piece of private motor assistance

Sounds like a “general hatred of cars” to me.  Call it whatever you like.

Quote
No insult or hostility is intended with this post of me, Sigmetnow.

I don’t see it as a personal attack, nanning.  Just a ridiculous one, because a) cars aren’t going away any time soon, therefore b) steps to make them the least harmful, and the most beneficial, as possible, means transitioning to electric vehicles, among other things.

And it’s tiresome!  Arguments such as yours have been hashed out, over and over, ad nauseum, in the original Cars thread.  That is specifically why Neven created this thread, to keep that out!

Please review Neven’s first post on this thread’s board (my bold):
Quote
This thread is for discussing the latest in EV technology and infrastructure.

The original Cars, cars and more cars thread can be used to discuss what it all means as a solution in the greater scheme of things.

Edit: Make that the new Cars, cars and more cars thread.
https://forum.arctic-sea-ice.net/index.php/topic,2686.msg199102.html#msg199102

Feel free to write about the ill of cars as much as you want.  Just not in this thread.  Please.
People who say it cannot be done should not interrupt those who are doing it.

oren

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Re: Electric cars
« Reply #802 on: November 05, 2019, 10:36:04 PM »
Apology: this was written several hours ago and did not get posted in time, so may feel out of place. In any case, I agree the whole discussion should be made elsewhere, but still thought it worthwhile to post this little bit.


Reading the last few posts one gets the impression that the only thing causing the 3-4oC warming, and preventing Utopian public transportation and an end to over-consumption, is those pesky little EVs.
It's as if those 100 million ICE cars sold globally per year have been completely forgotten. BAU is marching on while we are here discussing the finer points of environmentalism.

I completely agree that in order to really fix the problem we must get rid of all usage of resources that are not renewable and sustainable. If I were the global dictator, many things would be banned outright (yes, including fossil fueled flights) and the rest would be limited according to planetary capacities (yes, including births). But I am not the dictator, and you are not either, and it is what it is. The problem is not completely fixed and not partially fixed, and we and our children are destined to fry.
So even if I am not an incrementalist, I cheer for every little increment, because it's still better than the existing alternative. And a new EV sold is better than a new ICE sold, even if both should have been banned in a better-managed planet.

Neven

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Re: Electric cars
« Reply #803 on: November 05, 2019, 11:49:25 PM »
My problem is when I see NeilT openly shitting on 'radicalism', Greta Thunberg and Extinction Rebellion. On a Forum that is supposed to be serious about AGW.
Il faut comparer, comparer, comparer, et cultiver notre jardin

rboyd

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Re: Electric cars
« Reply #804 on: November 06, 2019, 01:58:25 AM »
My problem is when I see NeilT openly shitting on 'radicalism', Greta Thunberg and Extinction Rebellion. On a Forum that is supposed to be serious about AGW.

I shit on Greta and XR because I see them as a highly co-opted and controlled opposition which will end up facilitating "climate capitalism" within ongoing economic growth - a mixture of feel-good virtue signalling climate offsets (e.g. the "all we need is more trees" bullshit) and massively profitable geo-engineering (solar radiation management, BECCS, DACS, crushing massive amounts of igneous rock and spreading across the remaining rainforest etc.) - without really stopping climate change/ecological collapse.

Then again, I am just some cranky old bastard who has been watching this shit intensify for the past three decades, but I really do hate the hypocritical jerks like DiCaprio who waffle on about the need for action while having a carbon footprint the size of a small town (he had some very nice pics taken with Greta!).

I do sometimes suffer cognitive dissonance moving from the Sea Ice, Antarctica, and Consequences areas to the Policy area - a disconnect from the urgency of the former three and the relative lack of urgency of the latter.

Now back to EV's.....

rboyd

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Re: Electric cars
« Reply #805 on: November 06, 2019, 02:01:57 AM »
China’s design for the electric-vehicle battery supply chain is anything but complicated

Quote
China’s design for the electric-vehicle battery supply chain is anything but complicated. Beijing has been pressuring foreign auto makers to use locally-made batteries in the country, and that business is increasingly funneled through a single manufacturer, Contemporary Amperex Technology Ltd., or CATL. The WSJ’s Trefor Moss reports the aggressive effort is aimed at dominating global supply chains for the burgeoning market to supply the power to the world’s growing fleet of electric cars, buses and commercial vehicles. That’s a concern for U.S. and European policy makers, who are increasingly wary of the Communist Party’s influence over new technologies and products. China has also been seeking to lock up much of the world’s supply chain for cobalt, a vital battery component. The drive has given CATL a commanding role as new technology triggers an upheaval in automotive supply chains, and suppliers elsewhere now are struggling to keep up.

https://logistics.cmail19.com/t/ViewEmail/d/6AE3CAC4D88601AA2540EF23F30FEDED/74809B9BE512E20BCE63909E3969C05F


nanning

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Re: Electric cars
« Reply #806 on: November 06, 2019, 08:43:35 AM »
My last post here in this context.
Quote from: oren
the impression that the only thing causing the 3-4oC warming, and preventing Utopian public transportation and an end to over-consumption, is those pesky little EVs.
Hm, strange, that is not what I have written or intended at all. I think I put forward a legitimate question about microplastics emissions from car tires. EV's are not emissions free. Microplastics are a major problem.

The reactions of Sigmetnow and oren leave me puzzled because they seem to have read a different text.
It was an honest question and valid point to discuss. Especially here in the EV's thread where it's all happy happy joy joy.

Quote from: oren
It's as if those 100 million ICE cars sold globally per year have been completely forgotten. BAU is marching on while we are here discussing the finer points of environmentalism.
oren, my point is not part of 'finer points of environmentalism'. It is an extremely important point in the enormous transistion global society has to make.

Either

- More of the same; still cars etc. but greener. Still a high-energy lifestyle. Green BAU. GDP growth. More and more resources and waste. Microplastic etc. (In my view the whole global emergency sistuation screams for this system to STOP NOW).

Or

- Radical change, which, I am certain, is absolutely necessary. And supported by the alarmcalls from the science community.

---
rboyd, I appreciate your posts and most views but I think you should give Greta some slack. She is a great example and unifyer for all youth whose future is likely one of 'untold suffering'. I observe that she doesn't choose to lead them, just to be with them and add her great power of speech and her directness in saying it like it is. Backed up by science and scientists. I see no wrong in what she does and I don't observe that she's being used. A pure and beautiful person in my view. No celebrity. Very modest.
XR is another story. I don't understand how you cannot support them and their actions of last resort. And they also refer to science as validation for it. They are not 'lefties' or 'crusties', but ordinary people, young and old, who try to survive and have seen through the bullshit. They are awake and afraid and rightfully so. Would you let yourself be arrested?

Neven: I agree with you.

Now back to EV's and apologies to all who have been upset.

edit: corrected second quote
« Last Edit: November 06, 2019, 10:03:53 AM by nanning »
"It is preoccupation with possessions, more than anything else, that prevents us from living freely and nobly" - Bertrand Russell
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Neven

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Re: Electric cars
« Reply #807 on: November 06, 2019, 08:48:39 AM »
My problem is when I see NeilT openly shitting on 'radicalism', Greta Thunberg and Extinction Rebellion. On a Forum that is supposed to be serious about AGW.

I shit on Greta and XR because I see them as a highly co-opted and controlled opposition which will end up facilitating "climate capitalism" within ongoing economic growth - a mixture of feel-good virtue signalling climate offsets (e.g. the "all we need is more trees" bullshit) and massively profitable geo-engineering (solar radiation management, BECCS, DACS, crushing massive amounts of igneous rock and spreading across the remaining rainforest etc.) - without really stopping climate change/ecological collapse.

That's not the reason NeilT is shitting on them. Your reason I can accept.

Now back to EV's.....
Il faut comparer, comparer, comparer, et cultiver notre jardin

oren

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Re: Electric cars
« Reply #808 on: November 06, 2019, 10:30:11 AM »
Quote
Either

- More of the same; still cars etc. but greener. Still a high-energy lifestyle. Green BAU. GDP growth. More and more resources and waste. Microplastic etc. (In my view the whole global emergency sistuation screams for this system to STOP NOW).

Or

- Radical change, which, I am certain, is absolutely necessary. And supported by the alarmcalls from the science community.
Nanning, to be clear - I agree with you completely. But while the radical solution is not happening, I prefer Green BAU over plain BAU. EVs still have many environmental problems (tires, batteries, mining, and much more) but they are better than ICE cars.

NeilT

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Re: Electric cars
« Reply #809 on: November 06, 2019, 02:19:55 PM »
Yep, back to EV.

Get out the spreadsheets and calculate the EU 95g regulation that starts fining manufacturers on average fleet emissions.

Calculate average CO2 for the fleet then calculate the fine based on €95 per g per vehicle.

It is quite enlightening.  It tells you why VAG are investing €45bn in EV and why FCA are so willing to buy Tesla credits with pooling.

You might want to check out the mpg of the Toyota 2.0l gasoline engine which reaches 40% thermal efficiency.  Then plug that MPG into a mpg to g/CO2 calculator.

ICE development has hit a wall and the EU has raised the emissions barrier so high, so quickly, that the engineers have failed to keep up.

As we say in idiomatic English, "There is more than one way to skin a Cat".
Being right too soon is socially unacceptable.

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Sigmetnow

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Re: Electric cars
« Reply #810 on: November 06, 2019, 09:35:27 PM »
Excellent long-read on the industry’s transition to EVs.

“Because as German companies were busy manipulating their diesel engines and placing their bets on ever bigger SUVs, as they half-heartedly studied and tested alternative drive systems, and as they collected arguments against self-driving cars instead of testing them, a whole new paradigm was unfolding elsewhere in the world. In California and China, private and state-owned companies emerged that are now surpassing Germany's former technological leaders. They have entirely different views of the car and how it is used.”

Will Tesla and Google Kill the German Car?

The End of an Era
Threatened by entrepreneurs in California and by Chinese upstarts, German automakers are urgently trying to find their place in a new world of robots and electric cars. BMW, Daimler, Audi and VW set the standards for a century but have now fallen behind.
https://www.spiegel.de/international/business/will-tesla-and-google-kill-the-german-car-a-1293415-amp.html
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Sigmetnow

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Re: Electric cars
« Reply #811 on: November 06, 2019, 09:57:59 PM »
The VW ID.3

VW says they are starting slow in order to “get things right.”  Skeptics note the factory is still mostly ICE-production and likely to remain that way for quite some time.  And that the ramp numbers include EVs from Audi and SEAT as well as VW.

Why Will The VW ID.3 Take So Long To Reach The Market?
Quote
Production has started, but only at a 30-cars-a-day pace, eight months before deliveries begin.
Just to give you an idea of how this works, the start of production – also referred to as SOP – normally happens about two months before deliveries. That is the time required for the production of a sufficient amount of vehicles to supply to dealerships and avoid getting customers frustrated for trying to buy something that is not readily available. ...
https://insideevs.com/news/380506/vw-id3-delay-reach-market/

——
Tesla’s competitors find that going electric has its own set of problems
https://www.marketwatch.com/story/teslas-competitors-find-that-going-electric-has-its-own-set-of-problems-2019-11-04

—-
BMW scares staff by showing them Elon Musk's face on a giant screen
"BMW is falling behind in electrics."
"We're in the midst of an electric assault."
Staffers sitting on unstable foam cubes in a stuffy room for a session on autonomous cars have no questions when Q&A time rolls around — even though their jobs may depend on understanding such systems.

https://www.afr.com/companies/transport/bmw-scares-staff-by-showing-them-elon-musks-face-on-a-giant-screen-20170427-gvteh8

——
Quote
Pete Bigelow (@PeterCBigelow) 11/5/19, 2:51 PM
NEW: @Uber self-driving test vehicles were involved in 37 crashes and incidents between Sept. 2016 and March 2018, preceding fatal Tempe crash, per new @NTSB documents. Uber's cars were the "striking" vehicle in two of the collisions.
https://twitter.com/petercbigelow/status/1191805174177771521
- In one, @Uber vehicle struck a bent bicycle bollard that partially occupied vehicle's lane of travel. In other, vehicle operator took control to try and avoid a "rapidly approaching oncoming vehicle."
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Sigmetnow

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Re: Electric cars
« Reply #812 on: November 07, 2019, 02:28:03 AM »
Why Charging An Electric Car Can Suck: What Are The Issues?
https://insideevs.com/news/380690/why-charging-an-electric-car-can-suck/amp/

Video demonstrates various charging procedures in Boulder, Colorado:




While the EV fleet was mostly CHAdeMo charging format early on, today CCS and Tesla are becoming more numerous.  Graphs/images below from the article.
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Sigmetnow

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Re: Electric cars
« Reply #813 on: November 07, 2019, 02:43:38 AM »
Mercedes EQV designer:  “Good enough. Ship it!”

Quote
Formiga (@FormigaRica) 11/6/19, 4:05 AM
Legacy automakers just don't want make good EVs...
Mercedes decided to block driver's door while charging...
Holy crap...
https://twitter.com/formigarica/status/1192005076136660992
Images below.   Not a photoshopped photo....
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GoSouthYoungins

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Re: Electric cars
« Reply #814 on: November 07, 2019, 02:59:38 AM »
Not a photoshopped photo....

YA! A good company like Tesla, would totally fake and photoshop their shit to make it look good!
big time oops

GoSouthYoungins

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Re: Electric cars
« Reply #815 on: November 07, 2019, 03:03:08 AM »
EVs are currently for the top 2% of CO2 emitters globally. (So the super-emitters can tell everyone about how much they are part of the solution.)

Personal passengers vehicles have no place in a sustainable world. Duh.
big time oops

GoSouthYoungins

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Re: Electric cars
« Reply #816 on: November 07, 2019, 04:37:12 AM »
Fun times. Tried to send a message to "Sig" today. As follows...

So we are like opposites.

But I think we want the same shit.

So that is interesting.


If you are interested in actually conversing privately, and learning about one another and our perspectives, please let me know.



But I was told "sig" has blocked you from personal messaging.

The Tesla Cultist really are zealots (and apparently dangerous/bad ppl).
big time oops

oren

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Re: Electric cars
« Reply #817 on: November 07, 2019, 06:18:47 AM »
Quote
Mercedes decided to block driver's door while charging...
What a weird location for the charging connector, especially since charging takes a relatively long time. At least they could have put it on the passenger side.  ::)

oren

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Re: Electric cars
« Reply #818 on: November 07, 2019, 06:39:02 AM »
Quote
I was told "sig" has blocked you from personal messaging.
This happens automatically when the user has put you on the ignore list, it's not a separate blocking as far as I know.
As your numerous and often sequential posts are low on content and high on mockery and name calling, I expect Sig is is not the only one to have taken the rational route and blocked you.

nanning

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Re: Electric cars
« Reply #819 on: November 07, 2019, 09:41:39 AM »
off-topic, short comment
My ignore list is empty. Why ignore? Isn't that a lack of respect? How would you do that in a real life group? In my view it is not rational behaviour. More like emotional behaviour ;).
"It is preoccupation with possessions, more than anything else, that prevents us from living freely and nobly" - Bertrand Russell
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Tom_Mazanec

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Re: Electric cars
« Reply #820 on: November 07, 2019, 01:26:07 PM »
I don’t ignore anyone either.
Even the people who persecuted me when I started deserve to be heard, and could have a good point later on.
SHARKS (CROSSED OUT) MONGEESE (SIC) WITH FRICKIN LASER BEAMS ATTACHED TO THEIR HEADS

GoSouthYoungins

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Re: Electric cars
« Reply #821 on: November 07, 2019, 02:26:23 PM »
Quote
I was told "sig" has blocked you from personal messaging.
This happens automatically when the user has put you on the ignore list, it's not a separate blocking as far as I know.
As your numerous and often sequential posts are low on content and high on mockery and name calling, I expect Sig is is not the only one to have taken the rational route and blocked you.

Sig posts more numerous and often sequential posts than anyone else on this forum. By far. And the content is blah twitter post from cultists.

I at least have something to say. I call ppl names when they earn them. Ain't nothing wrong with calling a spade, a spade.


What would the price of emitting carbon have to be, to make solar or wind cheaper than natural gas? (Full stop integrated pricing. Yes solar and wind can produce intermittent cheap energy. But the cost to make it dependable is significant.)

I never ignore ppl. I can just glace over the content if I want. Ignoring is for those with serious cognitive dissonance which they desire to be left unresolved.
big time oops

GoSouthYoungins

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Re: Electric cars
« Reply #822 on: November 07, 2019, 02:31:48 PM »
Sequential posting is tight.

How weird is it that fElon Muskian Cultist are opposed to the EVs from non Tesla brands!?! To the point of mocking them. How much of a zealot does that make a person!?!
big time oops

NeilT

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Re: Electric cars
« Reply #823 on: November 07, 2019, 02:39:22 PM »
Sequential posting is tight.

How weird is it that fElon Muskian Cultist are opposed to the EVs from non Tesla brands!?! To the point of mocking them. How much of a zealot does that make a person!?!

I'm not a cultist and I'm not opposed to them.

What I am opposed to is the cult of fElon presenting them as a reason Tesla will die.

Tesla is there to provide us with choice.  Virtually every other EV manufacturer out there is dancing down the fine avoidance and subsidy incentive line.

You have blinkers on.  When we call you on it, instead of proving your point, you call us names and provide cherry picked figures.

I can see why some people ignore....
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GoSouthYoungins

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Re: Electric cars
« Reply #824 on: November 07, 2019, 02:54:33 PM »
You have blinkers on.  When we call you on it, instead of proving your point, you call us names and provide cherry picked figures.

A single example please.
big time oops

NeilT

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Re: Electric cars
« Reply #825 on: November 07, 2019, 07:24:28 PM »
You have blinkers on.  When we call you on it, instead of proving your point, you call us names and provide cherry picked figures.

A single example please.

Erm, let me see.

How about Tesla is going to fail in Jan 2019 and Giga3 is going to be a mud field when it fails?

No?

Tesla cannot manufacture cars at a profit, not even one, they will have to keep borrowing forever and will eventually go bust?

No?

Solar roof 3 is a fake and they will never ship any?

Granted that one needs a little time to play out....

For each of these predictions we were roundly abused for doubting you and called idiots and morons.

Tick Tock.
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KiwiGriff

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Re: Electric cars
« Reply #826 on: November 07, 2019, 08:05:08 PM »

This is what I was going to post on the Tesla thread so is not congruent unless you read both.
....
 Neil for a little light distraction I have been looking at making a lipo3 battery pack for a boat house battery.
Its complicated coming from someone who has been living with and learning about lead acid based house storage systems for over a decade. I basically will need to rebuild my entire house electrical system from scratch adding  a lot more than simply a battery. Even making the battery itself will require a lot more tech than just a few cells and connectors. On this simple exercise I am just getting to "it s beginning to make sense" but I know I have a long way to go yet to successfully design what I want . This excise adds to my understanding of what Tesla is doing.

One graph explains  GSY's position .


Sigmetnow

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Re: Electric cars
« Reply #827 on: November 07, 2019, 08:19:17 PM »
Quote
I was told "sig" has blocked you from personal messaging.
This happens automatically when the user has put you on the ignore list, it's not a separate blocking as far as I know.
As your numerous and often sequential posts are low on content and high on mockery and name calling, I expect Sig is is not the only one to have taken the rational route and blocked you.

 ;D That is indeed the case, and my Forum experience is much more enjoyable without GSY’s epithets and fake superiority.

The bully is clearly so starved for attention, and needful of people to abuse in order for him to feel dominant, that he tried to stalk me by personal message when I simply put him on Ignore.  His ignorant responses to my posts, going unanswered, apparently isn’t satisfying enough for him.

So many times in the past he’s tried the “But I really want thoughtful conversation!” gambit — only to revert to his usual rude self shortly thereafter.  No need to fall for that again.


Edit:  it’s a little hard to find, so for those who are interested:
To Ignore a member, go to your profile > Profile of xxxxx > Modify Profile > look in dropdown for: buddy/ignore list > edit ignore list > Add to ignore list
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NeilT

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Re: Electric cars
« Reply #828 on: November 07, 2019, 08:37:09 PM »

This is what I was going to post on the Tesla thread so is not congruent unless you read both.
....


Makes sense to me.

Personally my time for this kind of stuff is highly limited.  My home in France was built in 1851 and was last renovated some time in the 40's or 50's.

You might want to look at something like this

https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/48v-lithium-Battery-5kwh-torqeedo-12s-boat-off-grid-solar-storage-BMW-i3-120-ah/254410502444?hash=item3b3c0c312c:g:RkkAAOSw9-Zdv9n4

rather than trying to make a LiPo battery bank.  Sorting a BMS and doing the software work for a BMS might be significantly easier.

I bought a microwelder in case I wanted to rebuild my Alienware battery pack (plus for other stuff) but found my time was too constrained.  It is sitting waiting for me to do something with an old battery bank stuffed full of LiPo batteries but with a failed circuit board.

Good luck with what you do though.
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Sigmetnow

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Re: Electric cars
« Reply #829 on: November 07, 2019, 09:01:28 PM »
The CTA measures an automotive company’s ability to transition to a “low carbon future”, according to the research and analytics group based in Manhattan, New York.

Tesla receives top scores in Moody’s Carbon Transition Assessment
Quote
Moody’s uses a multi-point scale, CT-1 being the highest rating and CT-9 being the lowest, to determine a company’s readiness to quickly transition to a cleaner vehicle that will emit zero emissions. “Our new assessment gives us a way of monitoring progress in aligning with the low carbon transition,” Vice President and Senior Credit Officer of Moody’s James Leaton said. “2020 is set to be a critical year for automakers proving whether they can deliver electric vehicles at scale to achieve compliance in Europe and China.”

20 vehicle manufacturers were the subjects of the testing and only Tesla was able to receive the highest score of CT-1 from Moody’s. BMW, Honda, Toyota, Geely, and Beijing Automotive Group all received high marks as well, though their respective scores were still notably lower than those of the Silicon Valley-based electric car maker.
...
Critics of the electric vehicle movement have spread narratives of electric vehicles causing more environmental damage than traditional combustion engine vehicles. Moody’s assessment of the twenty car manufacturers puts an end to this argument. Tesla is clearly leading the way in terms of transitioning the future of transportation to more sustainable options, due to its recognition as the only automaker with the highest possible score. With large manufacturers making the transition to more sustainable vehicles, the future of clean transportation has arrived.
https://www.teslarati.com/tesla-top-scores-moodys-carbon-transition-assessment/
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KiwiGriff

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Re: Electric cars
« Reply #830 on: November 07, 2019, 09:54:13 PM »
The price for new lipo3 cells ex china is about $100 US per 3.2 volt 100 amp cell delivered to NZ.
You still need to upgrade the rest of the system and source a BMS to suit if you use ex car packs .
The main issue with going from lead acid to lithium is you can no longer leave solar panels connected to float charge the pack as lithium does not like to sit 100% charged for days.

 We have a large number of used leaf's here in NZ .  An industry reconditioning and upgrading electric car battery's is already emerging .The cars them self's are still viable so any used cells that do come to market are snapped up to recondition their battery's.  In a few years once the numbers of electric cars leaving the fleet due to general degradation increases battery's ex cars will become the cheaper option for off grid storage systems.

We live in interesting times.

GoSouthYoungins

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Re: Electric cars
« Reply #831 on: November 08, 2019, 04:11:40 AM »
You have blinkers on.  When we call you on it, instead of proving your point, you call us names and provide cherry picked figures.

A single example please.

Erm, let me see.

How about Tesla is going to fail in Jan 2019 and Giga3 is going to be a mud field when it fails?

No?

Tesla cannot manufacture cars at a profit, not even one, they will have to keep borrowing forever and will eventually go bust?

No?

Solar roof 3 is a fake and they will never ship any?

Granted that one needs a little time to play out....

For each of these predictions we were roundly abused for doubting you and called idiots and morons.

Tick Tock.

That's all you got? Seriously.

1)They should have filed long ago to keep the brand alive. Now it is liquidation.

1a)Let's see what happens when the 1 year lease ends.

2)I'm totally correct. Tesla never has manufactured cars at a profit. When they push costs and revenue forwards and backwards, they can create a profitable quarter or two. BUT THE BEST 4 QUARTERS IN A ROW THEY HAVE MANAGED IN THE PAST 5 YEARS (before they had practically any competition) WAS A $330 MILLION LOSS. THE AVERAGE LOSS IS JUST UNDER A BILLION ****ING DOLLARS.

3)I CAN'T EVEN BELIEVE THAT YOU WOULD BRING UP THE SOLAR ROOF IN A LIST OF THINGS IM "WRONG" ABOUT AND IGNORING. WTF!!!!!!!!!!!
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NeilT

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Re: Electric cars
« Reply #832 on: November 08, 2019, 07:23:56 AM »
3)I CAN'T EVEN BELIEVE THAT YOU WOULD BRING UP THE SOLAR ROOF IN A LIST OF THINGS IM "WRONG" ABOUT AND IGNORING. WTF!!!!!!!!!!!

Sadly I can believe that you say the things you do.

As a consolation I watch Tesla and their excellent approach to EV and other FF free initiatives destroy you corrosive beliefs as time goes by..

You will note I didn't need to bold that. Tesla does the bolding for me.
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GoSouthYoungins

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Re: Electric cars
« Reply #833 on: November 08, 2019, 01:46:12 PM »
You will note I didn't need to bold that. Tesla does the bolding for me.

Announcing revolutionary products that you haven't invented yet is indeed bold. If that's butter's your bagel, fair enough. I think it is madness and clear fraud. One man's trash...

(Let's leave this for the other thread.)

As a consolation I watch Tesla and their excellent approach to EV and other FF free initiatives destroy you corrosive beliefs as time goes by..

EVs are an excellent approach to personal passenger vehicles. They are far from fossil fuel free. And they are far from helpful in fighting climate change. Every component is made with fossil fuel energy, from materials gathered using fossil fuel energy. And most of the electricity generation for EVs come from burning fossil fuels.

If you take climate change seriously, you should understand that we can't transition to a more populated and equitable world AND have EVs just replacing ICE vehicles while we hope to one day replace the fossil fuels so crucial to every step of the manufacturing and operating EVs.

You are probably old, and don't care. You want a fast luxury car and to be able to act like you are doing your part. For you people, Tesla is perfect.
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NeilT

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Re: Electric cars
« Reply #834 on: November 08, 2019, 01:57:25 PM »
EVs are an excellent approach to personal passenger vehicles. They are far from fossil fuel free.

As I commented to Neven, running a Tesla on main grid in the US would not meet the current EU regulations for g/km CO2.  Germany is at the upper end in the EU at 77g for an EV charging, on average, on the grid.

As for products which have not even been invented yet?  Solar Roof 3?  Invented, manufactured, delivered in test samples.  Announced as a product to be ordered from the website with "short term" delivery times.

If they fail to deliver by Q2 next year look me up and we can bounce that one back and forth.
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GoSouthYoungins

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Re: Electric cars
« Reply #835 on: November 08, 2019, 02:21:48 PM »
As I commented to Neven, running a Tesla on main grid in the US would not meet the current EU regulations for g/km CO2.  Germany is at the upper end in the EU at 77g for an EV charging, on average, on the grid.

German electricity come mostly from fossil fuels. Also, you totally fail to respond to my point that EVERY step of EV creation and operates uses fossil fuels for all or most of the energy required.

As for products which have not even been invented yet?  Solar Roof 3?  Invented, manufactured, delivered in test samples.  Announced as a product to be ordered from the website with "short term" delivery times.

Solar Roof 1 was totally fake. Solar Roof 2 wasn't even fake, just never existed even as a concept. But Solar Roof 3 you have faith in. Okay.
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NeilT

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Re: Electric cars
« Reply #836 on: November 08, 2019, 03:03:20 PM »
Increasingly manufacturing of EV's is happening on renewable power.  You cannot deny this, it is fact.

As for believing Tesla?  I believe that if Tesla do not actually produce Solar Roof V3, then Musk and his board will be arraigned for manipulating the markets.  Tesla has been given as much rope as it is going to get.  If it does anything like this now, without a solid explanation, it will be hung.
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Re: Electric cars
« Reply #837 on: November 08, 2019, 05:59:42 PM »
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Ken Feldman

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Re: Electric cars
« Reply #838 on: November 08, 2019, 07:32:12 PM »
I've seen forecasts for initial cost parity between EVs and ICEs as early as 2022.  This one estimates it between 2022 and 2026.  (Note they also think Toyota will have a solid-state lithium ion battery in the early 2020s).

https://oilprice.com/Energy/Energy-General/The-One-Metric-That-Matters-For-Electric-Cars.html

Quote
Looking beyond the dramatic headlines—the cliff-hanger nature of Tesla’s financial statements and the Trump administration’s efforts to re-engineer the auto industry—we need to focus on one number that determines when electric vehicles (EVs) will make economic sense. So says a report out of Argonne Laboratories sponsored by the Department of Energy. That number, according to researcher George Crabtree, is the price of the battery (as measured in $ per kwh), which he says has to halve in order to make EVs competitive with conventional cars. Not promising one might think. Well, researchers now believe that battery prices could reach the magic level somewhere between 2022 and 2026.

But, there is more to come. Researchers are working on lithium ion-solid state batteries. These would not only eliminate the unfortunate flammability issue that dogs lithium batteries but also possibly double the milage per charge. Toyota hopes to have such a battery ready in the early 2020s.

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Re: Electric cars
« Reply #839 on: November 08, 2019, 11:01:35 PM »
German electricity come mostly from fossil fuels.

Bullshit!

https://www.energy-charts.de/energy_de.htm?source=all-sources&period=annual&year=2019

True, FF in 2019, so far, is less than 50%.  That being said, the next two months are some of the highest for non renewable use.

You also have to factor in that that solid red chunk of Nuclear is committed to be gone in just over 2 years.
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Sigmetnow

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Re: Electric cars
« Reply #840 on: November 09, 2019, 01:21:08 AM »
Other EVs have offered one-pedal driving for some time.  Perhaps Tesla’s delay was to assure the programming played nice with Tesla Autopilot, Automatic Emergency Braking, and the various sensors’ input.  In any case, efficiency increases of 10 to 15% are being seen with this feature. See the example below.

With recent updates, the Tesla website now shows an incredible 141 MPGe (city/highway combined) for the Model 3, or only 24kWh of battery to travel 100 miles — beating the much smaller and shorter-range Hyundai Ioniq that had topped the efficiency chart up to now.

—-
And to everyone predicting grid collapse from EVs swamping the grid with the nightly charging of their huge batteries, please note:
“I don’t plug my car in every day to charge (only every few days, since I only have a 6 mile commute to work)…”:

Tesla One-Pedal Driving Update — In A Word, Perfecter
https://cleantechnica.com/2019/11/02/tesla-one-pedal-driving-update-in-a-word-perfecter/

Quote
StatsApp (@StatsTeslaApp) 11/8/19, 11:57 AM
So, one-pedal driving does increase efficiency (more recent is on the left). This is from our Model 3 which got 36.1 recently. Seems like it increased efficiency by about 10-15%. that's significant.
https://twitter.com/statsteslaapp/status/1192848708720680961
Graph below.

——-
Q2020 Tesla Model 3 beats Hyundai IONIQ to become most efficient EV produced
https://electrek.co/2019/11/07/2020-tesla-model-3/
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Sigmetnow

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Re: Electric cars
« Reply #841 on: November 09, 2019, 03:11:08 AM »
Driver assistance technology reduces the risk of cars hitting bicyclists and pedestrians:
Quote
Tesla_saves_lives (@SavedTesla) 11/8/19, 10:29 AM
Look how Tesla #Autopilot takes care to respect the rules of the road and does not double the cyclist if there is not enough room
https://twitter.com/savedtesla/status/1192826464699334659
Video clip at the link: Tesla autopilot yielding to a cyclist riding at the side of the lane ahead of the car.

——
Tesla AP visualization is still a work in progress:  ;)
Quote
Vincent (@vincent13031925) 11/3/19, 5:19 PM
 ;D ;D ;D
https://twitter.com/vincent13031925/status/1191117699176230912
Gif at the link.

But traffic cones are now visualized:
Quote
Michael Hsu (@hsumacher) 11/2/19, 5:22 AM
Yellow vertical traffic poles? Not a problem either! ...
https://twitter.com/hsumacher/status/1190559751781810176

——
Unique use for Smart Summon:
I freed my Tesla from a locked garage with Smart Summon!
https://www.reddit.com/r/teslamotors/comments/djatmv/i_freed_my_tesla_from_a_locked_garage_with_smart/
« Last Edit: November 09, 2019, 03:22:15 AM by Sigmetnow »
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GoSouthYoungins

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Re: Electric cars
« Reply #842 on: November 09, 2019, 05:11:25 AM »
German electricity come mostly from fossil fuels.

Bullshit!

https://www.energy-charts.de/energy_de.htm?source=all-sources&period=annual&year=2019

Lol. I guess I should have been more specific. Last year only 46% of German electricity production was from fossil fuels. BUT the majority of consumed electricity was from fossil fuels. Unconsumed electricity is totally pointless.

Also, the Biofuels are not considered fossil fuels BUT its mostly corn which burns as much fossil fuel energy in its production as the energy it produces. (It's also cow shit, which is even worse due to methane production.) So biofuels are probably actually even worse emitters than the energy equivalent fossil fuels.

And, nuclear is going bye bye.

So it really isn't bullshit. Most of the electricity consumed in Germany comes from fossil fuels. This might change in the next 5 years, but the nuclear phase out will make it tough.

You were right about one thing though. The cow manure part is the worst, and it is bullshit.
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blumenkraft

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Re: Electric cars
« Reply #843 on: November 09, 2019, 07:38:10 AM »
That's how we roll in Germany. On Sundays, we meet in big townhalls and consume energy never produced. Great tradition!
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Re: Electric cars
« Reply #844 on: November 09, 2019, 07:45:08 AM »
You were right about one thing though. The cow manure part is the worst, and it is bullshit.
This is a little bit out of topic, but I had the opportunity to visit a methanisation system with electricity generator close to my home and was very impressed. I believe that if you can chose without political pressure how you feed the system, you get clean renewable energy. Circuits are very short and pressure is very low, so leaks have a very low probability. The gas has to be compressed before going into the generator.

The thing is that it should not be considered as a way to manage thrash like politicians would like yo use it, but as an electricity production system.

Addendum: they also produce fertilizer for the fields and heat. During the summer and fall, heat is used to dry crops. Cows and pigs manure would be a better fertilizer after treatment in the methanization system.
« Last Edit: November 09, 2019, 07:56:43 AM by etienne »

GoSouthYoungins

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Re: Electric cars
« Reply #845 on: November 09, 2019, 12:46:04 PM »
That's how we roll in Germany. On Sundays, we meet in big townhalls and consume energy never produced. Great tradition!

It seems like you are making fun of the idea that produced energy and consumed energy are different.

Wind and solar are the most scale-able renewables but they are also notorious for producing energy at somewhat unpredictable times but more importantly on their own schedule.

If you had a magic solar beam array, and one day every the sun shot an incredible amount on energy at the beam, you could double or triple your annual energy production. But it would do basically nothing for the energy consumption mix or emissions at large.

There is not a proportional reduction in emissions relative to the increase in renewables.
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Sigmetnow

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Re: Electric cars
« Reply #846 on: November 09, 2019, 01:14:47 PM »
Is this the beginning of the end for Daimler?

Daimler will 1100 Führungsstellen streichen - Wirtschaft - Süddeutsche.de
https://www.sueddeutsche.de/wirtschaft/daimler-1.4673466

November 8, 2019.  From my read of Google Translate:
• Daimler wants to delete 1100 management posts. 
• Austerity plans will hit everyone - from the highly paid top manager to line workers.
• Management wants the workforce to waive collectively guaranteed wage increases.
• The union has struggled for months to ensure new electric drive manufacturing would be added to the Stuttgart engine plant, but Daimler has outsourced it to a supplier, instead — making it a cheaper, direct competitor to their own plant.
• Union chief says the blame lies not with employees but with management’s emission fines and and the recall of hundreds of thousands of diesel vehicles, because of their engines.
• Daimler is "very disappointed" in their talks so far because the union "did not recognize the seriousness of the situation."
• Union chief: the situation is currently "more critical than expected", but it is "in no way" comparable to that of 2008.
• An official announcement is expected November 14.
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blumenkraft

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Re: Electric cars
« Reply #847 on: November 09, 2019, 04:23:22 PM »
It seems like you are making fun of the idea that...

Nah, that's sarcasm. No intent to be funny.

Quote
If you had a magic solar beam array, and one day every the sun shot an incredible amount on energy at the beam, you could double or triple your annual energy production.

We don't have those. We have a Europe wide energy market though. We sell energy when plenty of wind power is available and buy energy when it isn't. Sometimes we buy wind from GB, and sometimes nuclear from France, sometimes water from Switzerland or Austria. Those are emission-free. Any combination is possible actually.

Quote
But it would do basically nothing for the energy consumption mix or emissions at large.

Since the power sold and bought nationally is only a fraction of the power produced domestically, how does this matter at all? Why would you bring it up? And why are you moving the goalpost there to the end?
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Re: Electric cars
« Reply #848 on: November 09, 2019, 06:52:03 PM »
Hullo Blumenkraft.

The discussion about energy in general belongs more in the renewable energy thread. (GSY pushed the buttons and bingo - a response).

We had a littel disussion about that a day or two ago

Quote
gerontocrat
Re: Renewable Energy
I have a vague memory of a Europe-wide plan to build a network of ultra-high DC voltage transmission lines capable of shifting large amounts of power all around Europe as and when needed.

Will it happen?



Is it necessary?  The article I linked to indicated that it can be done now through existing grids using cloud computing to control the switching.

You cannot switch power over a link that is not sized for the power, no matter how smart your cloud computing.

The EU is essentially 28 silo's of national power grids with interconnects between them of varying capacity.  The UK has a 2GW interconnect to France and a 1GW interconnect to the Netherlands and Belgium respectively.  We also have 0.5GW to Northern Ireland and another link to Dublin which is not specified but looks like it's 1GW.

info here  https://gridwatch.co.uk/

So Germany could have 20GW of spare power but, given enough interconnect bandwidth through the Netherlands, Belgium and France, the most you are getting of in the UK is 4GW.  It doesn't matter how smart your switching is.

This was the premise of the EU HVDC interconnect grid.  Germany has a similar problem in country where it generates the majority of the Renewable energy in the north, but can't transmit it south due to a lack of large enough interconnects inside the country.  Germany also has a massively fragmented energy market which restricts the delivery of a homogenised infrastructure.

You can read more about it in the links below.  It was April 2018, but things have not changed that radically since.

https://www.cleanenergywire.org/factsheets/interconnectors-blockages-german-grid-odds-eu-power-market
https://www.cleanenergywire.org/dossiers/energy-transition-and-germanys-power-grid#updating

Statements like this one emphasize the problem.

Quote
However, bottlenecks in Germany’s internal north-south transmission grid are causing problems for further integration of power markets. Already, the grid cannot physically deliver the volume of power being traded. And Germany’s neighbours are complaining about destabilising loop-flows, as congestion in the German grid forces power into those of neighbouring countries, and about blockages at the borders.
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Sigmetnow

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Re: Electric cars
« Reply #849 on: November 09, 2019, 09:00:17 PM »
He’s considering having the state join California’s ZEV group, which would force carmakers to stock and sell more EVs there.  Car dealers (big surprise! ::)) say they already have plenty of EVs on their lots.

Minnesota governor pursuing more electric cars for the state
Quote
Gov. Tim Walz is on a crusade. He wants to lower carbon emissions from Minnesota's transportation sector, and says his latest plan to adopt California rules for tailpipe emissions could help make a dent, in part by invigorating a lagging market for electric vehicles.

"If we had more choices and there were more used low-emission vehicles, we'd buy those," Walz said in October.

The Walz administration contends that electric vehicles' small market share in Minnesota is not due to lack of interest. The governor has trumpeted a survey from Consumer Reports that says 60% of prospective car buyers in the state are interested in electric vehicles and 66% of those surveyed want to choose from more types of electric vehicles, such as SUVs and pickup trucks.

"If we do this, they will sell them," Walz said of car manufacturers complying with his proposed rules. "People will buy them and the market will work."

He said of the more than 50,000 light-duty vehicles on dealers' lots in Minnesota, only 300 were electric vehicles. Out of 320 dealerships that can carry electric vehicles, he said, only nine of them have five or more electric vehicles, and only a handful have more than one. That sharply limits the choices of consumers who show up to dealerships looking for electric vehicles.

Kukkonen said one reason Tesla is so popular is that its Eden Prairie dealership has a host of options ready for customers. Manufacturers do send more cars to states that adhere to the zero-emission vehicle, or ZEV, rules, in part because they're required to provide more electric cars and plug-in hybrids.

Hyundai is one of the most prominent auto companies missing from Minnesota's electric vehicle market. None of its four electric or plug-in hybrid cars are available for sale in the state, according to Kukkonen's list, and all are among the cheapest models around, priced at less than $30,000 after the federal tax credit.

When asked why the cars were not for sale, and what might entice them to enter the market, Hyundai spokeswoman Michele Tinson said the company first rolled out its Kona EV in California, followed by "ZEV-focused states in the western and northeastern regions of the U.S. market."

"Minnesota is not considered a ZEV-focused state," Tinson said.

Tinson said their two Ioniq brand vehicles actually are available across the U.S., but said it's "up to each individual dealer to determine their selected vehicle inventory."
https://www.mysanantonio.com/news/article/Minnesota-governor-pursuing-more-electric-cars-14819940.php
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