Electric cars

[sidd]

Re: toyota prius gas consumption

I know two people who own the things, and that seems to be a common complaint. One of them stops charging the car evry few months for a week or so, because the daily drive uses very very little if any and he dont want the gas going bad. He just refills the tank to a 1/4 every 6 months. The other has had a mostly full tank (with stabilizer added) for over a year. I believe the tanks are about 10 gallons.

sidd

[NeilT]

If you adjust your life and driving to the prius so you don't kick in the motor, then it can work really well for you.

The report I posted showed that with these bigger vehicles, it will be much harder to avoid emitting.  It was quite correct, dieselgate all over again.  Where the stated emissions profile of the vehicle only works in one very small category and the manufacturer knows very well that this category will not be the normal use case.

If we build and tax for the very best possible use case, then the average use case will mean we did relatively nothing to reduce emissions.

The only possible way to force these PHEV vehicles into low emissions is to raise fuel prices to the point where the owners are forced into using the batteries only for most use.

That cannot happen until at least 3/4 of the country based fleet of vehicles has transitioned to some form of EV.  Or at least 80m EV/PHEV vehicles  sold per year for around 8-9 years.

Put that way, it's like doing nothing for a decade whilst trumpeting that we are doing something.

[Sigmetnow]

—- U.K. charging
‘Why did it take nine hours to go 130 miles in our new electric Porsche?’
Sat 28 Nov 2020

A couple from Kent have described how it took them more than nine hours to drive 130 miles home from Bournemouth as they struggled to find a working charger capable of producing enough power to their electric car.
Linda Barnes and her husband had to visit six charging stations as one after another they were either out of order, already had a queue or were the slow, older versions that would never be able to provide a fast enough charge in the time. …

https://amp.theguardian.com/money/2020/nov/28/electric-cars-porsche-charging-network

—- Nikola
Nikola shares fall after CEO fails to reassure investors GM won’t pull out of $2 billion deal

Shares of embattled electric vehicle start-up Nikola Corp. fell by as much as 17.4% during trading Wednesday morning after CEO Mark Russell failed to reassure investors that the company’s $2 billion deal with General Motors would still go through and that ousted founder Trevor Milton wouldn’t suddenly sell off his shares. … 

https://www.cnbc.com/2020/11/24/nikola-shares-fall-after-ceo-fails-to-reassure-investors-gm-wont-pull-out-of-2-billion-deal.html

—- VW
Good plan.  If only they knew how they could do it.
Volkswagen plans small electric car for the masses

BERLIN (Reuters) - Volkswagen is bringing forward the development of a small electric car for the mass market in anticipation of tougher climate regulations, according to plans seen by Reuters, as it seeks to boost sales in a new green era.

Under the project dubbed “Small BEV (Battery Electric Vehicle)”, engineers are racing to develop a purely-battery powered car around the size of a Polo which will be available for between 20,000 and 25,000 euros ($24,000-30,000).
This would make it cheaper than Volkswagen’s ID.3 electric car, which went on sale in September.

Volkswagen did not provide details on what the vehicle might look like, when it might be launched or where it might be built.
 
The carmaker has said the European Union’s more stringent emissions targets will force it to boost the proportion of hybrid and electric vehicles in its European car sales to 60% by 2030, up from a previous target of 40%.

Earlier this month, it raised its planned investment on digital and electric vehicle technologies to 73 billion euros ($86 billion) over the next five years, of which around 35 billion will be invested in e-mobility.

The VW brand currently plans to build 1.5 million electric cars by 2025. 

https://www.reuters.com/article/us-volkswagen-electric-idUSKBN28711O

—-  Steven Mark Ryan applauds Herbert Diess’ shockingly honest post about what VW must do to survive the next decade.
VW's Plan To Take On Tesla (or go bankrupt trying) - YouTube
➡️https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AR1v2iv7Rj0

SOURCE:
How we transform Volkswagen
November 28, 2020

For me as the CEO, the Executive Team and managers who appreciate the situation for what it is, the key question is: How can we get this vast Group with all of its stakeholders to rethink its views, radically change its priorities and strive to develop new capabilities in spite of its current success. We’re no startup – our structures and processes have developed organically over decades. Many are now antiquated and complicated. Above all, we have a range of different interests and political agendas in the Group. They make this undertaking – already a major challenge – even more difficult and complex. However, any resistance should only spur us on and motivate us.

One thing we lacked when I took up my position at Volkswagen five years ago, and which is still in short supply, is time. Even then, Volkswagen was already late-to-market with electrification and digitalization in particular. That’s why we started radically rethinking our strategy 5 years ago, plotting a new course for the future. A new strategy can only be implemented on a broad base with support from all managers and stakeholders. …

https://www.linkedin.com/pulse/how-we-transform-volkswagen-herbert-diess/

[Sigmetnow]

Illegal emissions tampering on diesel trucks is rampant—and apparently a big business
November 29, 2020

About 15% of U.S. diesel trucks that were originally certified with emissions controls have had those systems tampered with.

That’s among the takeaways from a U.S. EPA report released last Friday. It suggests an environmental and public-health impact that within the U.S. could exceed that of the Volkswagen diesel scandal, given the prevalence of such trucks.

The report, from the EPA’s Air Enforcement Division (AED), and made available by the New York Times Wednesday, projects that emissions controls have been removed from more than 550,000 diesel pickups in the last decade, adding more than 570,000 tons of nitrogen oxides (NOx) and 5,000 tons of particulate matter over the lifetime of the vehicles. …

https://www.greencarreports.com/news/1130445_illegal-emissions-tampering-on-diesel-trucks-is-rampant-and-apparently-a-big-business

[interstitial]

I knew a guy who would "convert" your truck for 600 dollars. I am not defending the guy. The motivation was an increase in fuel economy of 4 miles per gallon. A 27% improvement from 15 to 19 mpg. He only worked on one model but he would get about 1 or 2 a week. It took him 3 to 4 hours each with no money spent on parts. He wouldn't tell me all the details but in essence he replaced the operating system on the truck with an older one before new pollution rules came into effect. The other thing he did was put a hole through the inside of the catalytic converter making it useless. It would not pass emissions testing however most rural areas in the US do not test emissions. It is common and profitable but these are individuals not big business. A big business can be shut down. Under the table one person operations are almost impossible to stop. Well requiring regular emissions testing would stop it. He justified himself by saying the increase in nox and other pollutants was offset by the reduction in diesel burned. I know it is a bad idea but does anyone have a good response to that.

[NeilT]

It just goes to highlight the Faustian bargain of setting city emissions levels for vehicles without fundamental change to the engine design.

My son has just bought a Peugeot Traveller due to the rather horse-like new dog he and his wife rescued over the summer.  Simply put they couldn't get the three dogs in their nice sleek Volvo.

This is an 8 seat Mini Van in US parlance.  It has a 120bhp 1.5l diesel engine in it which drives the vehicle pretty well.  It is fully Euro 6d certified and averages just under 50mpg (Imperial).  Even the 200bhp 2.0l variant averages about 43mpg (Imperial).

In cities Nox levels are critical as the massive pollution causes huge problems.  However, in the middle of a country the size of the US, Nox levels are far less of an issue than CO2 emissions.

If you look at VW, you get a sense of the sheer cost to transition existing vehicle manufacture to EV.  I would suggest the real cost will be somewhere close to $1tn, world wide.

You would think that vehicle manufacturers would be working feverishly to reduce the emissions of current engines to extend the transition period and get ahead of the regulations.  After all there has to be something between 25% average efficiency of an ICE and the 65% efficiency of a Gas turbine which you can't use in cars.  If you did think that you'd be wrong.  It appears the approach is to simply go hybrid and try to duck under the radar by using the electric only stats to drop emissions figures.  Leading to countries like the UK bringing their full EV regulations forward.

It becomes very clear that the Auto industry is going to be dragged, kicking and screaming, into the 21st century and CO2 free (at point of use), automobiles.

[Sigmetnow]

The Badger scam is now complete.

Nikola Investors Don't Look Pleased With General Motors Partnership
30 minutes ago

The long-anticipated conclusion to a September deal in the electric vehicle space was announced Monday.

What Happened:
Nikola Corporation (NASDAQ: NKLA) and General Motors Company (NYSE: GM) announced a supply agreement that will see General Motors provide Hydrotec fuel cell systems for Nikola’s Class 7/8 trucks. The companies will work together on mutually agreed specifications for the fuel cell systems.
Nikola will pay upfront for the capital investment for capacity.

Why It’s Important:
This is far less than Nikola and its investors had hoped for. Back in September, Nikola and General Motors announced a partnership that would have included GM investing $2 billion for an 11% stake in Nikola. Shares of Nikola shot up 39% to $49.75 on the news of that deal.

Nikola said Monday it's also forgoing plans to build the Badger pickup truck, which was anticipated with the GM financing news in Septemeber.

Monday's announcement from Nikola and General Motors comes as investors weigh lock-up expirations from former SPAC Nikola. Former CEO Trevor Milton owns 91.6 million shares that are available to sell beginning on Dec. 1. Separately on Monday, Nikola announced plans from insiders to sell 53.39 million shares.

NKLA Price Action: Shares of Nikola were down 21% to $21.94 at publication time. 

https://m.benzinga.com/article/18574406

[Sigmetnow]

"Nikola will refund all previously submitted order deposits for the Nikola Badger."
https://www.prnewswire.com/news-releases/nikola-signs-mou-with-general-motors-301181397.html
 
For those needing a Steven Mark Ryan Nikola fix:
➡️youtu.be/9XOMRyR1R1Q  [the“CNBS” interview, or ‘We never promised to actually build the Badger’]

➡️youtu.be/qmagRbWkW8c  [the BroDozer ad, or ‘Our Badger render and fake specs are the best!’]

——
Edit: today’s installment:
➡️https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=umaUA_AZuJE
[the brodozer vid is attached at end ]

(Note that today’s Nikola/GM announcement is of a “non-binding Memorandum of Understanding” — meaning it’s possible absolutely nothing comes of it.)

From the Youtube comments section:

GM in Old deal: receives shares, gets cash, gets cost plus contract, gives nothing

GM today: keep your shares, don’t want your money, call me if you ever get around to making trucks

This looks like face saving divorce papers

[Sigmetnow]

... He justified himself by saying the increase in nox and other pollutants was offset by the reduction in diesel burned. I know it is a bad idea but does anyone have a good response to that.

It’s simply cost-shifting.  The polluting truck owners have reduced fuel bills, but (they and) everyone else pay much more for the environmental consequences.

[Iain]

"horse-like new dog"

Canines' digestive system is set up for meat, domestic dogs are only c. 8 generations away from wild wolves in terms of behaviour - the ability to follow commands,

Meat is a v. high carbon product, the CO2 emissions in the food supply chain will very likely that of the Traveller

[NeilT]

Indeed.

But, that being said, where is the EV 8 seater minivan with an 800 mile range?

He has a home close to us in France and it is an 1,100 mile drive from where he lives in Scotland and and the route he takes in the UK is 600 miles.  He does that UK leg in one drive with only one short stop to let the dogs out and to refuel for the remainder of the journey.

Lots of people keep these larger vehicles for edge cases like this.  A significant proportion of them only have one vehicle.

Hence mitigating their emissions until EV's can catch up with them is very important.  But it always gets lost in the whole discussion.

[kassy]

But that is all life choices. You could opt not to have 2 houses a 1000 miles apart , leave the dogs in one (in someones able care) or have tiny poodles.

[oren]

Or take two days to travel...

[Tor Bejnar]

Let's see:  1,000 miles (1,600 km) at 20 miles/day (32 km/day) only takes 50 days (50 days) to commute by walking, and walk with the dogs.  And you might meet some neighbors!

Then give both houses to charity (or back to the bank who actually owns them) and keep walking!

And wave at the EVs driving past (to keep this On Topic )

[Sigmetnow]

The Internal Combustion Engine Is Dead. Long Live Electric Vehicles.
Electric vehicles are set to dominate the global automobile market. There is palpable excitement within the industry as businesses start to innovate, invest, and overcome barriers which have been holding them back.

The UK has come a long way in a short time on electric vehicles. The country ranks third in Europe for total number of EVs, with the number of plug-in cars on the road now over 390,000, up from a mere 3,500 in 2013. This is around 1% of the market and sales grew by 21% last year alone.

The future is not straightforward to predict. Britain's National Grid thinks the stock of EVs could be between 2.5 and 10.5 million by 2030 – a wide range, but measures in place are encouraging.

The rise of EVs can be attributed to a number of factors: more electric car models than ever; lower costs, and consumer demand going up. Clear drivers for European governments are the dual factors of air pollution, with particular urgency post pandemic, and the climate crisis. This means the days of the Internal Combustion Engine are limited. France, Britain, Denmark, and Spain have all set target dates to ban the sale of petrol and diesel cars within the next 10 to 20 years and other countries look set to follow. …

https://www.forbes.com/sites/julietdavenport/2020/12/02/the-internal-combustion-engine-is-dead-long-live-electric-vehicles/

——
All in — or sell out
Report: Dealers not sold on GM's all-electric vision for Cadillac can sell out
The automaker is offering dealers unsure about the plan up to $500,000 to drop their Cadillac franchises, the industry trade journal reported.

Cadillac has been declared the standard-bearer of GM's electrification efforts, which include an investment of $27 billion to launch 30 new models across multiple brands by 2025, with Cadillac selling mostly electric vehicles by 2030.

Cadillac dealership
As part of that vision, Cadillac dealerships are being required to install charging stations and other equipment needed to service EVs, as well as provide accompanying employee training. A previous Automotive News report pegged the cost of these upgrades at $200,000 per dealership. …

https://www.greencarreports.com/news/1130404_report-dealers-not-sold-on-gm-s-all-electric-vision-for-cadillac-can-sell-out

—-
Tesla’s dominance is causing other companies to adopt a ‘fake it ’til we make it’ strategy
https://www.teslarati.com/tesla-dominance-fake-it-til-we-make-it-strategy/

—-
EU says it could be self-sufficient in electric vehicle batteries by 2025

BRUSSELS (Reuters) - The European Union could produce enough batteries by 2025 to power its fast-growing fleet of electric vehicles without relying on imported cells, European Commission Vice President Maros Sefcovic said on Tuesday.
…
Today, China hosts roughly 80% of the world’s lithium-ion cell production, but Europe’s capacity is set to expand fast.
Europe has 15 large-scale battery cell factories under construction, including Swedish company Northvolt’s plants in Sweden and Germany,

Chinese battery maker CATL’s German facility, and South Korean firm SK Innovation’s second plant in Hungary.
Sefcovic said by 2025 planned European facilities would produce enough cells to power at least 6 million electric vehicles.

https://www.reuters.com/article/eu-battery-idUSKBN2841Z3

—— Not specifically mentioned in the above article: Tesla’s Giga Berlin battery plant
Tesla’s battery production plant in Germany to bring in another 10,000 jobs

Tesla’s upcoming battery cell production facility in Germany, which will be built within the Gigafactory Berlin complex, will likely result in 10,000 more jobs in the state, according to estimates. This should help make Tesla’s presence in Germany even more attractive for job-seekers, especially considering that the electric car maker has made it a point that it is willing to hire even those without prior background or training.

Earlier this week, Elon Musk announced at the European Battery Conference that Tesla would be building a battery cell production facility in Germany. The upcoming plant will have a total annual capacity of 100 GWh, Musk noted, though this figure could later grow into a much more impressive 250 GWh per year. Yet even in its initial iteration, Giga Berlin’s battery plant would already be among the largest in the world. …

https://www.teslarati.com/tesla-battery-plant-giga-berlin-10k-jobs/

[grixm]

The whole bus depot that I live next to just got electrified. About 130 electric buses was delivered this fall and yesterday they were put into service and replaced all fossil buses on the depot, comprising all central routes in my city.

[NeilT]

Let me see.

My Son is in the police.  The police decided to change his pension and that of his wife to a point where they would get less than they put back in when they retired.

So they invested in a cheap house in France which would appreciate, unlike his pension; with enough land so they could, if they wanted, start a business when they retired early from the Police.

They get holidays in blocks.  4 weeks at a time.

So let me see.  The "helpful" suggestions for a situation where there is no EV solution to their travel requirements were:

Give up another two days of their holidays.
Pay for hotels as they give up their two holiday days
Give up their dogs, one of which is old and will die in the next few years
Walk
Give all their property away.

So let me give an alternative.

When those proposing their "solutions" give up their property, pensions, comfort and holdiay's, I'll listen.

It is this kind of flippant attitude to the fact that EV is nascent, at least 20 years away from providing true real world solutions to todays problems and prohibitively expensive (as good new technology is), which puts normal middle of the road people off.

Just because I understand the problem, doesn't mean that the people you present this attitude to do and their reaction is not going to be as mild as mine.

In fact my son does understand the problem.  He has a degree in countryside management and several additional qualifications.  His attitude is this. When the solution is available he'll consume it.  Otherwise get out of the way and let him live his life.  Like 99% of the remainder of the population.

[Iain]

I mentioned the dog food CO2 for awareness, there are many more layers to the human success (7.5+ bn )“problem” than transitioning to clean energy, e.g demand for Palm oil leads to loss of habitat for Orangutangs

If I were your son, I’d rent the property to a local until ready to retire. No traveling required.
Also open a SIPP, contribute and double his money on day 1.
(Tax +NI+ERNI = 46% to 54%, salary sacrifice contributions pay no tax or NI, 15-20% tax only on the way out)

I don’t think it’s fair to blame the RoW for not producing a solution to a situation he created.

[Iain]

On walking, consider a man on a bicycle, flat smooth ground at 6 mph. Easy going
The runner alongside him is breathing much more heavily. Why?

Also consider the V^2  term in the drag equation, double your speed and you need 4x the energy to cover the same distance, so EVs with similar battery to wheel efficiency at a wide range of speeds can choose to go more slowly and efficiently.

Finally frontal area and Drag coefficient, Cd. Note how low and smooth shaped Teslas are, not just for looks. The Traveler is a brick in comparison.

All points on the circumference of the bike wheel are the same distance from the hub, so the cyclist stays the same height above the road
The jogger has to lift his body up and down each stride and the muscles, ligaments are not perfectly elastic. Cycling is much more efficient than running.

[gerontocrat]

In fact my son does understand the problem.  He has a degree in countryside management and several additional qualifications.  His attitude is this. When the solution is available he'll consume it.  Otherwise get out of the way and let him live his life.  Like 99% of the remainder of the population.

I'm with you Neil on this one.

Most people in the UK are urban dwellers. Grixm's post above tells us that in his city all the buses have gone electric. Great, but still a rarity (outside China). Electrification of transport in urban areas is the low-hanging fruit, so why not concentrate on that first, though an adequate EV charging network that is not a rip-off would help..

In a few years there will be EVs being sold at a competitive price to ICEs and there will be an adequate EV charging network to give your son a viable and relatively low cost solution.

He is right to wait, though he could write to his local MP to ask when the hell will Boris's green blah blah be translated into action on the ground.
____________________________________
ps: I and my daughter are rural. My daughter has a van. She needs a van. We are waiting for an EV van that does not cost the earth and has more range than needed for just short urban deliveries. Until that time no choice but to keep the current diesel van on the road (or choose zero income).

[Tor Bejnar]

My flippant "sell both houses and walk" was in relation to the 'McMansion on 5 acres' owner who holidays at their slightly smaller '2nd home in the mountains'.  IIRC, Richard Nixon had $500,000 in assets and $1 million in debts when he was first elected president.  These were the mindsets I was referring to.

I've read several (a dozen or so?) 'cost of ownership' comparisons between Model 3s, other EVs and ICE or PHEVs.  It all comes down to who is writing the article as to which is better/best.  In whom can we trust?  If you bought a lemon or have an accident, though, you bought the wrong car!

[NeilT]

Sorry for my slightly sensitive post but my son and DIL live 1,100 feet up a mountain in the highest village in the UK  (remembering that Nevis is only just over 4,000ft).  They get 3' of snow regularly and have ZERO public transport for their 10 hour police shifts.

Their €45,000 investment in a house with 1 acre of ground in rural France was a defensive mechanism to the pension changes.  I'm sure they might have looked at other methods of funding if we had not been local and able to do many things to make their ownership of the property easier.

My son has two motorcycles, one of which is part offroad which allows him to get through the bad weather.  But reality is that his motorcycles get less mpg than his 2t traveller.

My DIL has a car for when they are on split shifts.  Her compact Volvo gets less mpg than the traveller.

[Iain]

“where is the EV 8 seater minivan with an 800 mile range?”
Unlikely to be one, very little demand and in most cases the extra batteries would be underused, so not a good use of resource, that’s two other battery sets which could be in other vehicles.

I can see a hired-in temporary range extender module (batts or genny) being available from the dealer in the future, for the occasional long trip, but not to 800mi range.

The standard Traveller EV has c. 250 mile range and fast DC charging (30 mins to 80%) so only one extra stop is required for the 600mi leg.
Is that so hard?
Have lunch / coffee break and give the dogs a walk, also think of road safety, tired drivers make mistakes.

“…compact Volvo gets less mpg than the traveller.”
Sounds odd, older Volvo, different journeys, driving styles?

“motorcycles get less mpg than his 2t traveller.”
Expected, bikes have smaller frontal area but much rougher form (Cd). Mass makes little difference, at speed drag is dominant, with V^2 the dominant term:
Drag = Area x Cd x V^2 x Density

[NeilT]

80% of 250 miles is 200 miles.  But you won't be driving it to 0% unless you have no sense, so let us say 70%.  Which is 175 miles.

Now we are talking at least 4 stops.

Then 30 minutes at 80% is only on the fastest superchargers. Now you are talking about a route which has 4 fast superchargers which are available.

Fail with one and wind up on a 7k charger (vast majority in the UK) and you have just missed your train through the channel tunnel.  Add up to £300 to get across.

On the other side things are a lot worse. Apart from one Tesla supercharger rank I know of you are 7kw almost all the way on a 500 mile journey.

There are realities here and either the EV market raises its game or FF vehicles are going to stay.

I have ridden very long distance on a 250 Super dream and also driven long distance in a car which was 30mpg and a 10 gallon tank.  I still remember just how important a 5 minute fill up was.

[oren]

The EV market will up its game, but these things take time. In 5 years the situation will be vastly different. OTOH, it is possible your son's exact current needs won't be met. Taking an EV on a 800 mile road trip will be slower by necessity than the fossil equivalent even then. And yet, your son might love not needing to spend time at gas stations anymore for his normal routine, eventually saving much more time than that lost on his annual cross-country drive. Or he might love the reduced maintenance, or the lower cost of energy. Who knows, he just might like the cleaner air and better future climate.
Give it time, EVs today are only suitable for a fraction of the population, due to cost, performance or charging availability. This fraction will grow and will encompass most if not all people.

[NeilT]

Agreed, but it is not here now and we should not act as if it is.

[oren]

I doubt anyone is acting as if that future is here now. If that were so, my damned ICE would already have been an EV.  I have sworn it would be my last one, but am still waiting for something decent to be available here.

[grixm]

I struggle to understand the focus on the cases of people needing to go 800 miles without stopping. Yes, with an EV you'd have to stop and charge a few times along the way. So what? Wouldn't you have to do that anyway, to eat, go to the toilet, and stretch your legs? There's no way in hell I'd be able to drive 800 miles in one go, fossil car or not.

Saying niche use cases like this means that EVs are not ready for mass adoption is like saying that cellphones are not ready for mass adoption because there is no service for a cellphone if you go a hundred km into the wilderness. That doesn't matter for 99% of people because they rarely find themselves in such locations. Just like 99% of people rarely find themselves in areas where EVs are not adequate (at least if development of charging infrastructure has not been artificially suppressed in that area).

[Iain]

Good news, I’ve found you some more 100kW charge points, and a rash of 50 kW ones for a1 hr lunch / coffee / dogwalk break from driving

Is your case that it’s justified to continue damaging behaviour until unreasonable demands (800mi range is v. unlikely) are met, that the individual is not responsible, it’s someone else’s problem?

I ask because the transition to renewable energy for transport, heating, industry…nearly everything, is fairly easy and painless.

The transition to reducing our environmental impact will be more difficult, because an increasing population (it doubled in my lifetime) will have to consume less stuff each, or there are fewer people or less damaging substitutes are used, or another way is found.

Realistically, we will have to make genuine changes, consume less palm oil, meat etc. Would you apply the same argument:

“When the solution is available he'll consume it.”

In terms of the environment wrt palm oil that would translate to “he’ll keep paying for the habitat of endangered primates to be cleared for plantations until a substitute for Palm Oil, at least as good and cheap is found”

If that attitude predominates, I'm not changing, not even a little bit, extinction will be widespread.

 “FF vehicles are going to stay.” Not for long, none new will go on the road in the UK from 2030, expect higher taxes on all of them and restrictions on where they are allowed to go, as well as less availability of fuel.

Should your “dragged, kicking and screaming” policy advocated in #2005 apply here?

[NeilT]

Good news, I’ve found you some more 100kW charge points, and a rash of 50 kW ones for a1 hr lunch / coffee / dogwalk break from driving

Sorry did I hear you say the _four_ breaks?  Did you also find them in France?

You challenge that I am damaging the environment because I have a choice.  Certainly my son has a choice, because he is in a stable job with a union, rights and can take interest free loans.  Even he can't afford two very expensive EV's and a vehicle for holidays.

Personally my car is now 11 years old and my wife's is 10 years old.  The runaround we use day to day is 13 years old.  The whole lot would set you back about £1,000 at todays prices.

I have only had one solid year of work, contiguous, in the last 7 years and I have had 18 months of work in the last 3 years. So how the hell do you expect me to buy a £40,000 vehicle.  No, wait, 2 x £40k vehicles And a vehicle capable of shifting an entire apartment of stuff once or twice a year and able to take us on holidays when I get the time and stable income.

When we have 10 year old EV's, which cost under £10,000 I will consider looking at them.  But my chances of getting an electric vehicle, any time soon, are minimal and my chances of charging it, in any reasonable time whilst travelling, in France, are nil.

Oren has the rights of this today.

One of my sons spends a lot of time looking at how very successful people see the world. See people like Jobs.  Their view is that someone else's problem is their opportunity.

What I talk about here, as problems, should be the opportunity for the manufacturers and the governments in providing clean energy and transport for the world.

Trying to make the current pitiful offerings work for all cases, today, stops us from creating that world we need for the future generations.

We should not be saying "hey look at me, I'm so wonderful, I can do my 15 hour  journey in 2 days, with current technology".  We should be demanding the correct technology right now.  No new public chargers should be under 50KW today, yet the vast majority of the infrastructure being rolled out is 7KW.

That, in itself, is a tragedy.

[Iain]

I don't know which region he's heading for, bu these ate the 43 - 100kW charge points near Calais:

[Iain]

“You challenge that I am damaging the environment because I have a choice.”
I specifically used “he” – your son. He is choosing damaging behaviour.

“15 hour journey” With blue flashing lights? The 1100mi road portion av. 73mph plus (zero time is allocated to the tunnel)

“in 2 days” Nope, there are 100kW, 50kW and 43kW chargers, it’s not “7kW all the way” (in France)
You are making it sound more onerous than it really is.

More good news, I’ve found you 435 EVs in your price range £10k, cutting me own 'froat, I am:

[Iain]

"Even he can't afford two very expensive EV's and a vehicle for holidays."

Why three cars?


We all have to get ourselves to work, the world does not owe a free ride, from halfway up a remote mountain or anywhere - his choice again.

[wili]

There's a saying that the most ecological car to buy is the car you already have.

Constantly buying new cars is worse than driving around an old clunker that happens not to have the best mileage, as far as I can see. It helps if you try not to drive when possible, of course

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There's a saying that the most ecological car to buy is the car you already have.

Constantly buying new cars is worse than driving around an old clunker that happens not to have the best mileage, as far as I can see. It helps if you try not to drive when possible, of course

I don't know how it works in your area of the world but where I live most cars have several owners.  If anyone decides to get a different car for any reason they sell it to someone else who uses it. The final owner drives it until it does not run and repairs exceed the value of the car. From an environmental point of view I don't think it matters when you sell your car. From an economic point of view it may take a long time to pay for an upgraded vehicle from gas mileage savings. If that is even possible.

I would love to get an electric car. For most of the year 80 mile range would be more than sufficient. But a few times a year I take a road trip. I usually travel for about 4 hours at freeway speed then stop for 20 minutes then drive another 4 hours. After about 14 hours If I am not close I stop for the day. In some areas freeway speed is 80 mph and I would typically do about 85 mph. that is 340 miles of usable range. The only vehicle currently available at a reasonable price is long range model 3 a version 2 supercharger would take about 40-60 minutes and half that for version 3. Another two to three years and a used model 3 long range might be affordable. If I had a spouse I would get one short range car now.

[wili]

Good points about used cars, interstitial. I assume the studies on this took that into account, but it's hard to say.

Here's a recent article that makes supports my point: https://medium.com/age-of-awareness/keeping-your-old-gasoline-car-vs-buying-an-electric-car-which-is-better-f04b6ba32ea1

[Sigmetnow]

Do EV chargers belong at gas stations?

In the early years of any major technological transition, consumers tend to see the new tech through the lens of the old—early TV shows were basically radio shows with video, and early web sites looked like pages from low-budget magazines. Many imagine that, once we’ve made the transition to electric vehicles, we’ll continue to make periodic stops at fueling stations, simply replacing gas pumps with charging stations.

This is a myth that the oil industry, and certain carmakers, are keen to perpetuate, because if you compare the half hour that it takes for a DC fast charge with the five minutes or so it takes to gas up, you’re bound to conclude that EVs are impractical. Of course, EV drivers know that this isn’t the way it works. We charge our cars overnight at home, and use public charging stations only for long highway trips. On balance, keeping an EV charged is more convenient than gassing up a guzzler, not less.

At least, that’s the way it works for the suburban drivers who made up most of the first wave of early EV adopters. As electrification spreads, however, it’s becoming plain that the millions of drivers who live in multi-unit housing, and don’t have the option of charging at home (or at work) need another solution. …

https://evannex.com/blogs/news/do-ev-chargers-belong-at-gas-stations

VW ID.3 2-Month, 17,500-Mile Road Trip: Charging Infrastructure Tested

The German team set a new world record, and it's not dependent on the Tesla Supercharger network. According to a recent story published by Electrek, a team of two German drivers spent two months traveling 17,500 miles in a Volkswagen ID.3 electric car (it's actually the Volkswagen ID.3 Pro S, which isn't available for delivery at this time). The goal was to put the country's EV charging infrastructure to the ultimate test.

Rainer Zietlow and Dominic Brüner traversed Germany for 65 straight days, traveling from Oberstdorf to Sylt in the all-new Volkswagen electric hatch. They relied on VW's We Charge service to navigate charging stations throughout their journey. Zietlow shared (via Electrek):

"The charging infrastructure is already relatively well developed nowadays. 652 stations were compatible with We Charge. However, at some sites there is still potential for improvement, for instance, some charging stations are located off the beaten track or they are poorly lit at night.”

While the primary goal was to prove (or disprove) the country's charging infrastructure, the trip was also a great test for the brand-new Volkswagen ID.3. Moreover, these German drivers actually set a new world record during their road trip. They achieved the longest continuous drive in an electric car through a single country.

The VW ID.3 has a 77-kWh battery pack, a WLTP range of up to 549 kilometers, and a peak charging rate of 125 kW.
…
“Not just the charging stations, but also the VW ID.3 demonstrated that electric mobility in Germany is efficient and suitable for everyday challenges. On average, the test vehicle consumed 19 kWh per 100 km covered during this marathon test drive while the longest stretch without charging was 420 kilometres.” 

https://insideevs.com/news/458178/volkswagen-id3-road-trip-charging-infrastructure/amp/

Wuling Mini EV Shines In Hot Chinese Market
November 25th, 2020
https://cleantechnica.com/2020/11/25/wuling-mini-ev-shines-in-hot-chinese-market/

Sam Korus (@skorusARK)12/4/20, 12:43 PM
EV adoption can happen fast...the Wuling MINI EV is selling at a ~170,000 annual run rate after just 6 months.
That would be equivalent to ~10% of the EV market this year.
https://twitter.com/skorusark/status/1334916252977012739

stevenmarkryan:  Slaying it.
IMO, the ass-end of the EV market (cheap, tiny, low range death machines) will see very strong growth for some time, especially in China.
Great way to avoid being destroyed by Tesla too. There's 0 chance Tesla will ever make cars like the Wuling Mini EV.

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Self-driving robotaxis are taking off in China
December 3, 2020  Hong Kong

The world has been inching toward fully autonomous cars for years. In China, one company just got even closer to making it a reality.

On Thursday, AutoX, an Alibaba-backed startup, announced it had rolled out fully driverless robotaxis on public roads in Shenzhen. The company said it had become the first player in China to do so, notching an important industry milestone.

Previously, companies operating autonomous shuttles on public roads in the country were constrained by strict caveats, which required them to have a safety driver inside.

This program is different. In Shenzhen, AutoX has completely removed the backup driver or any remote operators for its local fleet of 25 cars, it said. The government isn't restricting where in the city AutoX operates, though the company said they are focusing on the downtown area.

The company released a video of its minivan — the Fiat Chrysler Pacifica — navigating on its own through the city's downtown area, showing passengers getting in, loading a package into the backseat and letting a dog hop in for a spin. 
It also depicts the car navigating around loading trucks, veering past pedestrians, and performing a U-turn. …

https://www.cnn.com/2020/12/03/tech/autox-robotaxi-china-intl-hnk/index.html

[Sigmetnow]

About 150 Cadillac dealers take GM buyouts rather than invest in EVs

DETROIT – About 150 General Motors dealers have accepted buyouts and will stop selling Cadillacs as the Detroit automaker pivots the luxury brand to lead its all-electric vehicle efforts, a person familiar with the details confirmed to CNBC.

GM recently told its 880 U.S. Cadillac dealers that in order to sell its upcoming EVs it would cost at least $200,000 to upgrade dealerships. The cost includes EV chargers, tooling and training. Such capital expenditures are typically viewed as part of business for larger dealers, but could be challenging for smaller dealers, which Cadillac has more of throughout the country compared with other luxury brands.
…
The roughly 150 dealers accepting the buyouts represent about 17% of Cadillac’s U.S. dealerships. Dealers had until Nov. 30 to decide on a buyout, according to Automotive News, which first reported the offers last week. …

https://www.cnbc.com/2020/12/04/about-150-cadillac-dealers-take-gm-buyouts-rather-than-invest-in-evs.html

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Alex (@alex_avoigt) 12/4/20, 6:53 AM
VW will not comply with CO2 targets in 2020 & 2021
Herbert Diess, VW CEO
"We are now working hard to get as close as possible to the targets"
https://twitter.com/alex_avoigt/status/1334828107585499137
~ Diess continued   "If Brussels (EU) is asking us to go even faster, it must be said that we will not be able to go much faster before 2025 because there are not enough batteries" 
A confession from big auto to have messed it up
~ A moving target that is pushed in the future
"from 2022, we should have no more problems achieving the fleet targets"
This is also a proof that the demand for VW BEVs is not as high as VW tries to make us believe

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BMW Has Had Enough Of Racing Electric Cars In Formula E

BMW's future electric cars won't be inspired by motorsport..
…
In a statement, BMW Group said it has "exhausted the opportunities for this form of technology transfer in the competitive environment of Formula E."

Since the same engineers who develop the electric drivetrains also develop drivetrains for electric production cars like the BMW i4, experience gained from competing in the motorsport have benefited its production cars. Technology that has carried over from BMW's Formula E racecar to production cars include developments in energy management and energy efficiency, software for power electronics, and improved power density for electric motors. …

https://carbuzz.com/news/bmw-has-had-enough-of-racing-electric-cars-in-formula-e

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Roland F (@RolandFerwerda) 12/2/20, 2:10 AM
Audi CEO: “We will not be able to produce sufficient quantities of the hydrogen required for propulsion in a CO2-neutral manner over the next few decades. So I don’t believe in hydrogen for use in cars.“

Is now only Honda still believing in H2 for cars?

https://twitter.com/rolandferwerda/status/1334032155996004353

[Sigmetnow]

Is Aptera Using Tesla's Charging Tech: 1,000-Mile, Supercharge-Capable EV?

Aptera Motors formally announced its comeback to the world yesterday and began taking reservations for its three-wheeled EV that is capable of going 1,000 miles per charge with the largest battery option. The company also states that the solar roof can add up to 40 miles of range to the battery per day, which will allow some low-mileage owners to be able to drive the vehicle without ever having to plug it in.

That's all amazing news - if it indeed comes to fruition. However, we believe we've noticed something that nobody else is talking about just yet that is also pretty big news. At the 2:55 mark in the company-released Aptera video, we see what appears to be a Tesla inlet on the vehicle, with a Tesla connector about to plug into it.

That's NOT a J1772

You'll notice the connector doesn't have the Tesla name on the top as they usually do. Instead, there's a green overlay with the Aptera logo on it. Check out the Aptera video below and pay close attention at 2:55: …

https://insideevs.com/news/458607/aptera-using-tesla-charging-technology/

http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=youtu.be&v=HNjUdTJjiNk

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The accelerated depreciation in the first few years and remaining usable life make a purely micro economic argument unlikely to work out to purchase any new vehicle. For this reason and because personal finance issues are used to cloud the issue I think personal financial arguments are a separate subject. Notice here that purchase of a new gas vehicle makes the micro economic argument harder to make not easier.
Generally I reject the argument that the choice is between a new electric vehicle and no vehicle. It is my opinion that most people decide to buy a vehicle before they decide which one. They decide to start looking. Some option they want, in this case electric, may cause them to purchase a little sooner rather than later but IMO most would buy something else if the new option was not available. For the environment it is less important what one individual does than what everyone does collectively. If someone buys a new electric vehicle and sells their gas car the availability of that new vehicle will collectively allow someone else to buy used gas car instead of a new gas car.
The purchase of a new electric vehicle replaces someone buying a new gas vehicle. Further someone who buys new will eventually supply a used electric car. On the used market you can only buy what is available. In the US quality fuel efficient used cars are often in greater demand than inefficient vehicles. Large vehicles are preferred by the status crowd that buys new and automakers sell new cars not used ones. They also make more money on large vehicles.

[Sigmetnow]

There's Now More Than One Million CHAdeMO Vehicles In The World
Half of that falls on the Nissan LEAF, which is already above 500,000.

The CHAdeMO Association announced recently that the number of plug-in vehicles that are equipped with the CHAdeMO DC charging inlet has reached one million, globally, as of October 2020.
That's a huge achievement for the Japanese global standard. The only other standard with a higher number of vehicles deployed (over two million) is the Chinese GB/T, but it's used almost entirely in China.

Tesla sold more than 1 million EVs, but is inconsistent in terms of charging inlets (different in the various parts of the world or even in various models). The CCS Combo, on the other hand, exists in two different physical versions - CC1 and CC2. …

https://insideevs.com/news/458543/million-chademo-vehicles-world/amp/


The UK’s first forecourt dedicated solely to electric vehicles has opened
The facility is able to charge up to 36 electric vehicles at once, and uses rooftop solar panels.

The U.K.’s first forecourt dedicated to charging electric vehicles opened for business on Monday, as part of a plan to establish more than 100 similar sites across the country.

Sustainable energy firm Gridserve’s forecourt is able to charge 36 electric vehicles at once. The company says the chargers will provide road users with as much as 350 kilowatts of charging power, allowing 200 miles of range to be added to a vehicle in 20 minutes.
In terms of cost, drivers will pay 24 pence (around 32 cents) per kilowatt hour of energy, with Gridserve stating that a “typical charge from 20% to 80% costs under £10 for an average-size electric vehicle on the market today.”

Reliable and convenient sites for charging will play a crucial role when it comes to encouraging the uptake of electric vehicles (EVs) and challenging perceptions surrounding “range anxiety” — or the idea that electric vehicles aren’t able to undertake long journeys without losing power and getting stranded.
…
The Gridserve site, located near the town of Braintree in the east of England, uses electricity generated by rooftop solar panels and hybrid solar farms, while an onsite, 6 megawatt hour battery provides storage.

As well as charging points, the site also has a restroom, a coffee shop and even exercise bikes that produce electricity when in use. …

  https://www.cnbc.com/2020/12/07/the-uks-first-forecourt-dedicated-to-electric-vehicles-has-opened-.html

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More On The Biden Administration And The Future Of Electric Cars
https://insideevs.com/features/458559/president-elect-biden-electric-cars-future/amp/

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Volvo CEO: Ban on gasoline cars makes more sense than EV credits and subsidies
December 7, 2020

A ban on gasoline cars will be more effective than the current practice of electric-car incentives, Volvo CEO Håkan Samuelsson told a Financial Times conference earlier this week.

“No one can build a successful and profitable business by relying on incentives,” Samuelsson said. "While temporary incentives can help encourage industry to develop in the right way, it could be more efficient for governments to set a clear agenda towards an electric future.”

With the United Kingdom confirming plans to end sales of new non-hybrid gasoline cars by 2030, and California planning to phase out sales of new internal-combustion vehicles by 2035, sales bans have become a much more real possibility. But this is the first time the CEO of a global automaker has come out in support of them.

It's an unusual position for the CEO of an automaker operating in multiple markets. Those in such a position generally try to toe a line between markets with much regulation versus others with very little. …

https://www.greencarreports.com/news/1130540_volvo-ceo-ban-on-gasoline-cars-makes-more-sense-than-ev-credits-and-subsidies

[Sigmetnow]

General Motors will not offer buyouts to GMC dealers who don’t want to sell Hummer EVs

DETROIT – General Motors does not plan to offer buyouts to GMC dealers like it has for franchise owners of its Cadillac brand who don’t want to invest in stores to sell all-electric vehicles.

Duncan Aldred, vice president of GMC, said the brand is executing a “very different strategy” regarding EVs than Cadillac. About half of GMC’s 1,695 dealers have agreed to invest and sell electric vehicles, beginning next fall with the GMC Hummer EV pickup.

“We will not be going down a similar strategy as Cadillac,” Aldred said Tuesday during a virtual media event. “What the position is with Hummer EV is that it’s a participation agreement for dealers. It is optional for each and every dealer.”

The Hummer is the first all-electric vehicle for the brand. It also is the debut vehicle for GM’s next-generation Ultium batteries and architecture. Three additional EVs, including an SUV version of the Hummer and another pickup, are expected for GMC under a previously announced plan by GM to invest $27 billion in EVs and autonomous vehicles through 2025.

GMC expects additional dealers could agree to sell EVs as more information about the vehicles become available, Aldred said. The expense for dealers to sell the Hummer EV varies based on store, according to Aldred.

Phil Brook, GMC vice president of marketing, said GMC is asking dealers to invest “for the basics,” including training and charging infrastructure.

Aldred said GMC expects expenses for “the vast majority of dealers” to be “a lot less than the top-stop number that’s been reported.” For Cadillac, it was at least $200,000 to upgrade dealerships and offer required training, according to Automotive News.  …

https://www.cnbc.com/2020/12/08/gmc-will-not-offer-buyouts-to-dealers-who-dont-want-to-sell-hummer-evs.html

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The first year of GMC HUMMER EV orders were sold out in 10 minutes
But GM isn’t saying how many that is.

GM is still accepting reservations for future, lower-priced models, which start with the $99,990 EV3X in fall 2022 and will be followed by the $89,990 EV2X in spring 2023 and the $79,990 EV2 in spring 2024. …

https://www.foxbusiness.com/lifestyle/first-year-of-gmc-hummer-ev-orders-sold-out-10-minutes

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Genesis set to go electric next year with two EVs
Hyundai's luxury division showed two EV concepts in the past. Maybe one of them is set for production?
https://www.cnet.com/roadshow/news/genesis-electric-evs-hyundai-platform/

—-
Automakers are still cranking out masks and other PPE as Covid roars back
https://www.cnn.com/2020/12/08/business/automakers-ppe-ford-chrysler-gm/index.html
They are needed for their own workers, as well.

—— Toyota hydrogen trucks
Updated fuel-cell tech boosts Toyota semi project to 300 miles at full load

Toyota says that with the same six hydrogen tanks and overall capacity as previous efforts—meaning a total of 60 kg of hydrogen compressed at 10,000 psi—it can now deliver 300 miles of range at a full load weight of 80,000 pounds. The efficiency gains of these future trucks are clearly due in a large part to Toyota’s next-generation fuel-cell system, which Toyota hasn’t yet actually detailed. The new stack is also what powers the latest 2021 Toyota Mirai, which is due for first deliveries this month. Toyota will also use the stack in a commercial-truck project with Hino to hit an estimated range of 372 miles. …

https://www.greencarreports.com/news/1130603_updated-fuel-cell-tech-boosts-toyota-semi-project-to-300-miles-at-full-load

[BeeKnees]

Being reported that Toyota are launching a solid state battery.

Might be hype, the story is a bit mixed starts by claiming launch will be next year but then says it's a prototype with no production date. 

If the range, charging speed are genuine and the price is low enough then it's game over for ICE vehicles.

https://www.topgear.com.ph/news/technology-news/toyota-solid-state-battery-a4354-20201210

[Tom_Mazanec]

Got my fingers crossed, BeeKnees.

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Being reported that Toyota are launching a solid state battery.

Might be hype, the story is a bit mixed starts by claiming launch will be next year but then says it's a prototype with no production date. 

If the range, charging speed are genuine and the price is low enough then it's game over for ICE vehicles.

https://www.topgear.com.ph/news/technology-news/toyota-solid-state-battery-a4354-20201210

I suspect it is more hype than reality Toyota is committed to extend fossil fuels reign via grey hydrogen.

[Sigmetnow]

Team ElectroDocs (@electrodocs) 12/12/20, 1:27 AM
Deutsche Mobilitäts Schizophrenie in einem Bild...
(aus Handelsblatt)

German mobility schizophrenia in one picture...
(from Handelsblatt)

https://twitter.com/electrodocs/status/1337645311024635904
⬇️ Graph below:

- What would be the acceptable range of an e-car for you?

- How far do you drive your car on average per day?

[crandles]

Team ElectroDocs (@electrodocs) 12/12/20, 1:27 AM
Deutsche Mobilitäts Schizophrenie in einem Bild...
(aus Handelsblatt)

German mobility schizophrenia in one picture...
(from Handelsblatt)

https://twitter.com/electrodocs/status/1337645311024635904
⬇️ Graph below:

- What would be the acceptable range of an e-car for you?

- How far do you drive your car on average per day?

Hardly schizophrenia though is it? If you are going to spend a lot of money on a car, you don't want to accept it being ok for just an average day, you want it to be adequate on 99-99.9% of days.

[interstitial]

Team ElectroDocs (@electrodocs) 12/12/20, 1:27 AM
Deutsche Mobilitäts Schizophrenie in einem Bild...
(aus Handelsblatt)

German mobility schizophrenia in one picture...
(from Handelsblatt)

https://twitter.com/electrodocs/status/1337645311024635904
⬇️ Graph below:

- What would be the acceptable range of an e-car for you?

- How far do you drive your car on average per day?

I think this is true of most people. I can only afford to keep 1 licensed and insured car so it has to be capable of all my driving. Most days I travel less than 30 miles so any electric vehicle would be capable. If I could afford to keep both hmmmm.....
I bet I could insure the 2nd car only on days I planned to go farther. Maybe I should do some car shopping. I was waiting until I could get something used with comfortably over 200 miles of range because my most common trip is about that.

[Tor Bejnar]

I have a friend that use their reasonably new car only in-state (Florida).  They always rent a car or SUV for trips to see family in NC, DC, IN, etc.  They added a plug-in Prius a year and a half ago (so each parent could drive to work), and I found out last week they've used about 1/8th tank of gas.  (Her husband has to go in to work and can plug in there; she's working from home since mid-March.)

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I have a friend that use their reasonably new car only in-state (Florida).  They always rent a car or SUV for trips to see family in NC, DC, IN, etc.  They added a plug-in Prius a year and a half ago (so each parent could drive to work), and I found out last week they've used about 1/8th tank of gas.  (Her husband has to go in to work and can plug in there; she's working from home since mid-March.)

I am glad that works for them. Rentals get expensive quickly for me at least this would create problems. Adding a vehicle for a day or a few days is more expensive per day than an annual per day rate but much cheaper than a rental. I have used a per day rate on a pickup I used to own to haul things. My guess is your friend drives around a much nicer vehicle than I do. My trade in value for my car is relatively small and won't make much of a difference in the negotiations for my next car. Also I live in a rural enough area that services I need weekly are available but less common services requiring driving 50, 80 or 200 miles. Those occur too frequently to rent. I didn't want to get anything with a gas engine but I suppose that makes more sense than two cars. I wasn't planning on buying anything in the next year so I was hoping some of the longer range electrics come down in price. If not I might consider a plug in hybrid or a second car.