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Sigmetnow

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Re: Electric cars
« Reply #2150 on: January 21, 2021, 02:21:21 AM »
—- The EV successor to the beloved VW Microbus is delayed yet again
Volkswagen ID. Buzz Delayed Until 2023 For US Customers
January 18th, 2021
Quote
In any event, the idea of an electric minivan that would be the spiritual successor to the VW Microbus — the ultimate symbol of automotive cool and official vehicle of the Woodstock Generation — is one that has great emotional power. In recent stories, CleanTechnica has detailed how Volkswagen is starting to reconfigure its Hannover factory to produce the ID. Buzz and is adding an assembly line at its factory in Chattanooga to manufacture the ID.4 and the ID. Buzz.

Recent rumors suggested the ID. Buzz would be available to consumers in early 2022. And while that may be true, according to a report by Car and Driver, Scott Keogh, head of Volkswagen of America, told Automotive News last week, “I wish it was coming next year. It’s not going to come quite as soon as that. It’s going to be a little bit later than that.” A little bit later apparently means sometime in 2023 and that’s for cars built in Germany. When VOA is going to get production going in Tennessee is anyone’s guess. …
https://cleantechnica.com/2021/01/18/volkswagen-id-buzz-delayed-until-2023-for-us-customers/
⬇️ Image below.


—- “urban entry model”, range 265 miles (426 km)
JANUARY 20, 2021
Mercedes unveils electric compact SUV
Quote
The EQA, the first of several electric models Mercedes-Benz plans to launch this year, will initially have a range of 426 kilometres (265 miles), with a 500km model coming later.
The SUV will go on sale in Europe on Feb 4 at what board of management Britta Seeger described as “very attractive price points”.
Mercedes-Benz describes the EQA as an “urban entry model” and board member Seeger touted its “sustainability, versatility and fresh look”. …
https://www.reuters.com/article/us-autos-daimler-electric-idUSKBN29P19N

—-
Ontario, Canada: GM to convert CAMI into commercial EV plant
Jan 16, 2021
Quote
General Motors plans to transform its Ingersoll plant in Ontario, Canada into a major electric delivery vehicle factory. The Group earmarked one billion Canadian dollars (just under $800 million) for the conversion.

BrightDrop, GM’s new electric delivery vehicle outlet, will have its new truck made there once they switch over the current Chevrolet Equinox production to the EV600s. The model is set for delivery in late-2021 and GM said they would start transforming the CAMI factory in Ingersoll immediately, pending agreements with Canadian authorities.

The logistics-focussed BrightDrop brand had only been announced three days ago, and GM says they will offer commercial customers “an ecosystem of connected and electrified products and services” that cover the first to last mile. The first model is the EP1 and set to hit the market in just a few weeks. This is not an electric delivery truck like the EV600 but an electric pallet truck. …
https://www.electrive.com/2021/01/16/ontario-gm-to-convert-cami-into-commercial-ev-plant/

—-
Fiat Chrysler Automobiles is no more
Jan. 16, 2021
Fiat Chrysler, Groupe PSA merge to become Stellantis
https://www.detroitnews.com/story/business/autos/chrysler/2021/01/16/fiat-chrysler-groupe-psa-merge-become-stellantis/4179989001/

Stock ticker will be $STLA ::) ::) ::) Because heaven forfend they get confused with Tesla $TSLA.
 
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NeilT

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Re: Electric cars
« Reply #2151 on: January 21, 2021, 04:48:37 PM »
Fiat Chrysler, Groupe PSA merge to become Stellantis

Well lets hope that it doesn't act like Atlantis and vanish below the waves.

Or, perhaps, if it won't fully go EV we should hope it goes Atlantis and someone else takes on the role of large EV manufacturer.
Being right too soon is socially unacceptable.

Robert A. Heinlein

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Re: Electric cars
« Reply #2152 on: January 22, 2021, 12:08:10 AM »
Fiat Chrysler, Groupe PSA merge to become Stellantis

Well lets hope that it doesn't act like Atlantis and vanish below the waves.

Or, perhaps, if it won't fully go EV we should hope it goes Atlantis and someone else takes on the role of large EV manufacturer.
It kind of seems like the Kmart Sears merger. One failing company buying another does not fix the business model.

oren

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Re: Electric cars
« Reply #2153 on: January 22, 2021, 03:25:24 AM »
Other fake Tesla tickers are available for laggard automakers:
$LAST
$STALL
$LATE

NeilT

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Re: Electric cars
« Reply #2154 on: January 22, 2021, 11:25:06 AM »
It kind of seems like the Kmart Sears merger. One failing company buying another does not fix the business model.

Personally I think they are going for too big to fail and government funds.  If it comes down to tens of thousands of French and Italian jobs; money will be forthcoming.
Being right too soon is socially unacceptable.

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Re: Electric cars
« Reply #2155 on: January 22, 2021, 01:11:23 PM »
It kind of seems like the Kmart Sears merger. One failing company buying another does not fix the business model.

Personally I think they are going for too big to fail and government funds.  If it comes down to tens of thousands of French and Italian jobs; money will be forthcoming.
Remember British Leyland? All the Government support in the world could not keep that sick beast alive.
"Para a Causa do Povo a Luta Continua!"
"And that's all I'm going to say about that". Forrest Gump
"Damn, I wanted to see what happened next" (Epitaph)

NeilT

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Re: Electric cars
« Reply #2156 on: January 22, 2021, 02:37:52 PM »
Remember British Leyland? All the Government support in the world could not keep that sick beast alive.

Vividly and with reason.  I was a vehicle mechanic when it was alive.
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Re: Electric cars
« Reply #2157 on: January 22, 2021, 03:00:35 PM »
Remember British Leyland? All the Government support in the world could not keep that sick beast alive.

Vividly and with reason.  I was a vehicle mechanic when it was alive.
And I was one of the idiots that bought their products - until I went to Africa and got a VW Beetle and then a secondhand Datsun 120Y.
"Para a Causa do Povo a Luta Continua!"
"And that's all I'm going to say about that". Forrest Gump
"Damn, I wanted to see what happened next" (Epitaph)

Sigmetnow

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Re: Electric cars
« Reply #2158 on: January 22, 2021, 05:04:23 PM »
If VW made a good EV microbus /van, I think it would sell like crazy.  And then Tesla wouldn’t have to make one…  for now. 

But who will make the first mass-market autonomous van?

—-
SMR
Ark Invest Predicts $9 Trillion Robotaxi Opportunity By 2029


—-
Quote
Sawyer Merritt (@SawyerMerritt)1/21/21, 11:08 AM
NEWS: Pete Buttigieg (President Joe Biden’s nominee to head the Transportation Department) said while testifying today: "Automated vehicle tech is coming, it's advancing quickly and its something that holds the potential to be transformative; In many ways policy has not kept up."
https://twitter.com/sawyermerritt/status/1352286895963844611
Video clip at the link.

Sawyer Merritt:

➡️https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=ZvYBw8b6Q8M&feature=emb_logo
[ 2 hours ]
People who say it cannot be done should not interrupt those who are doing it.

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Re: Electric cars
« Reply #2159 on: January 22, 2021, 06:42:54 PM »
If you are making vehicles for robo taxis most of them should be 1 seaters. A fraction of them could be larger and available on request. A van would be better for airports and convention centers. IMO

crandles

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Re: Electric cars
« Reply #2160 on: January 22, 2021, 08:21:05 PM »
If you are making vehicles for robo taxis most of them should be 1 seaters. A fraction of them could be larger and available on request. A van would be better for airports and convention centers. IMO

Most 1 seater?

I rarely travel alone in a taxi but maybe this would change if people give up their cars to use robotaxis. Should this majority one seater rule be imposed on robotaxi companies? Or, should it be up to the market i.e. investors in robotaxis should be free to decide what models to invest in?

I think, at least at first, investors would prefer the flexibility of 4-6 seaters even if this is fuel inefficient for the single passenger rides. Maybe when there are lots of robotaxis so that wait for appropriate size is no longer a problem maybe then demand for 1 or 2 seaters will pick up to save on costs and undercut rivals. Only if that doesn't happen do I think we should begin to even consider slowly bringing in regulations like cannot buy 4+ seater unless 25% of purchasers fleet is already 1 or 2 seaters.

Of course, if by then they are all electric and grid is mainly renewables then I don't think we should hamper robotaxi firms with such regulations. Investor decision between flexibility and cost should then be allowed whichever way that decision goes.

Maybe some win win compromise is possible: if they allow sufficient vehicle to grid when not in use then allow them to use all 4+seaters for flexibility but if they don't then impose requirements for minimum number of 1 & 2 seaters.

With these considerations, I don't see majority 1 seater robotaxis as likely for quite a long time.


Minibus for airports and convention centers makes obvious sense. (Sideways seats in vans *only* if it is safe.)

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Re: Electric cars
« Reply #2161 on: January 23, 2021, 02:12:14 AM »
I was just thinking that most vehicles on the road are single passenger vehicles not large numbers. I would not regulate it just a thought.

NeilT

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Re: Electric cars
« Reply #2162 on: January 23, 2021, 08:21:04 AM »
Which brings us right back to Lit motors C1.

Lit motors might not have been able to do it, but Tesla certainly are capable.

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Sigmetnow

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Re: Electric cars
« Reply #2163 on: January 23, 2021, 09:55:20 PM »
Which brings us right back to Lit motors C1.

Lit motors might not have been able to do it, but Tesla certainly are capable.


Except that Musk refuses to make motorcycles, because he had a nearly fatal accident on one.  This might be a bit too close for comfort....
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Sigmetnow

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Re: Electric cars
« Reply #2164 on: January 23, 2021, 09:59:33 PM »
Global sales of EVs rises 43% in 2020 amidst fossil fuel cars’ decline
By Simon Alvarez January 19, 2021
Quote
Sales of electric vehicles across the globe saw a notable surge in 2020, rising 43% to more than 3 million units by the end of the year. This was despite the presence of a pandemic that resulted in overall car sales slumping by a fifth in 2020. In a way, these figures highlight the notion that EVs are now being preferred by more and more consumers.

Tesla, the global leader in EVs, led the charge, selling half a million cars during 2020. Volkswagen, a veteran automaker that has also made serious strides in embracing electric mobility, also performed well thanks to vehicles like Porsche Taycan and Volkswagen ID.3, both of which were received well. Data from Sweden-based consultancy EV-volumes.com reveal that EV sales actually doubled in Europe last year, pushing the region past China as the world’s largest electric vehicle market.

Irle explained several factors that contributed to these impressive figures. For one, higher government regulations meant that EV buyers are incentivized to purchase clean vehicles. Tesla’s approach of directly selling vehicles to customers may also have helped buyers embrace EVs more due to its convenience. Interestingly enough, the premium price of electric cars may have also helped boost their sales numbers. “The cheap car segments are always the worst hit in recessions, because it’s not normally high-income people that buy those cars,” the analyst noted. 
https://www.teslarati.com/tesla-evs-sales-2020-vs-ice-decline/

—-
Quote
Alex (@alex_avoigt) 1/23/21, 10:57 AM
ID.4 delivery delayed to April
A lot of vehicles standing in hidden parking lots [likely] waiting for software updates
Same procedure as with the ID.3
Source: Nextmove
https://twitter.com/alex_avoigt/status/1353008996706365440
Photo at the link.

—-
Quote
Tesla Owls (@TeslaOwls)1/22/21, 5:14 PM
[CONTEST]
How much will the garage quote me to repair my Zoe 22kWh? (in euros)
The car is worth 5-6k€
The message is "STOP electric motor failure"
The closest guess will get a tree planted in their name
https://twitter.com/teslaowls/status/1352741503865507840
Tesla Owls:

And yes, sorry, not much of a prize  ;D
My guess is 1642€

—-
Quote
Earl of Frunkpuppy (@28delayslater)1/23/21, 11:10 AM
Legacy auto about to catch #Tesla
https://twitter.com/28delayslater/status/1353012342901137408
Vid clip at the link. ;) ;D
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NeilT

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Re: Electric cars
« Reply #2165 on: January 23, 2021, 10:36:38 PM »
Which brings us right back to Lit motors C1.

Lit motors might not have been able to do it, but Tesla certainly are capable.


Except that Musk refuses to make motorcycles, because he had a nearly fatal accident on one.  This might be a bit too close for comfort....

True, but this is a gyroscopically stabilised 2 wheel car.

Different beasts.  This one can have the whole range of safety features of a car with the benefit that it is extremely difficult to roll over.

If Tesla doesn't, when the raft of robotaxi's arrives someone will.  It is just a matter of time.
« Last Edit: January 23, 2021, 10:41:57 PM by NeilT »
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Re: Electric cars
« Reply #2166 on: January 23, 2021, 10:45:29 PM »
I've always imagined the future of taxi's and the replacement for urban transport to be more modular

https://www.trendhunter.com/trends/citi-transmitter


etienne

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Re: Electric cars
« Reply #2167 on: January 24, 2021, 08:21:33 AM »
I just looked what I could get here in Luxembourg, and it was quite disappointing. Prices went down, it's getting affordable, the cheapest model was around 20'000 EUR, but I still need a car where I can put 4 adults and 2 dogs that is small enough to be able to park easily, and cheap because I hate spending money for cars. These models are only available in the category "future car", like the electrical R4.
https://www.automobile-propre.com/voitures/renault-4-electrique/
Generally speaking, I'm happy my cars aren't to old and that I don't have to buy a new one this year. I really don't know what I would buy.

Sigmetnow

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Re: Electric cars
« Reply #2168 on: January 25, 2021, 03:02:32 AM »
Germany makes plea to Taiwan as chip shortage hampers autos industry
Sun, January 24, 2021
Quote
A shortage of semiconductor chips for cars is hampering German economic recovery, officials from the country have said, as they made pleas to Taiwanese manufacturers to help bump up supply to the auto sector.

According to a letter seen by news agency Reuters on Sunday, Peter Altmaier the German economy minister, asked his Taiwanese counterpart Wang Mei-hua to address the issue with suppliers.  He wrote: “I would be pleased if you could take on this matter and underline the importance of additional semiconductor capacities for the German automotive industry to TSMC.”  The country is home to the Taiwan Semiconductor Manufacturing Co which is the world’s largest contract supplier of semiconductor chips.

A number of factors have choked car supply chains in recent months, and the delivery of semiconductors is high on the list. Legacy issues have come due to the former Trump administration’s actions against Chinese chip factories, but more recent issues have come to light for the car industry due to supply chain issues caused by Brexit.

Chip manufacturing capacity has been stretched to its limit around the world as laptops fly off shelves for working from home, and PCs and gaming consoles sell heavily. It has lead to chip firms such as Nvidia to warn of supply constraints.

Reuters reported that the shortage has put the breaks on production for Volkswagen, Ford, Subaru, Toyota, Nissan and Fiat Chrysler, among other manufacturers.

The issues had also been reported earlier in January when Credit Suisse analysts said in a research note that the chip supply issues may limit near-term auto production for the industry. The note also said that industry officials said they are prioritising production of higher-profit vehicles.
https://finance.yahoo.com/news/germany-car-parts-semiconductors-taiwan-peter-altmaier-auto-production-130448446.html

Tesla designed and secured a supply of their proprietary board, as compared to other auto manufacturers that use many off-the-shelf chips to control each system separately.  As Elon Musk said back during the Model 3 “production hell:”  you can’t sell a car if parts are missing.

—-
Tesla battery supplier Panasonic wants cobalt-free cells in 2-3 years
Quote
“Two or three years from now, we will be able to introduce a cobalt-free high energy-density cell,” he said.

Getting rid of cobalt in cells would not only reduce the cost of cells, but the price of electric vehicles would decrease as well. The battery pack of an EV is the most expensive part of the car and accounts for between 30 and 40% of the vehicle. …
https://www.teslarati.com/tesla-panasonic-cobalt-free-cells-2-3-years/


—- The cheapest Taycan version is finally here
The base Porsche Taycan has rear-wheel drive and an $81,250 price tag [to start]
Quote
No matter the battery size, Porsche says the Taycan can go from a 5% state of charge to 80% in just over 20 minutes when connected to a high-speed DC fast-charger. EPA-estimated range figures aren't yet available, but don't expect any Tesla-beating specs. The Taycan 4S with the larger battery is only rated at 203 miles, though we've found it very easy to exceed the EPA numbers. For the 2021 model year, Porsche expanded its partnership with Electrify America to streamline the charging process. …
https://www.cnet.com/roadshow/news/2021-porsche-taycan-ev-base-price-range-official/


—- Geofenced autonomy?
Quote
Whole Mars Catalog (@WholeMarsBlog)1/24/21, 7:36 PM
If you see a geofence, they blew it.
Geofences usually mask expensive manual processes that could never be scaled up to the entire world in a meaningful amount of time.
The autonomy wars will be won by whoever achieves global scale the fastest. Not by who is first.

Ai Proxima: If Geofencing was a viable solution, Roomba floor cleaner already solved autonomous driving.
https://twitter.com/wholemarsblog/status/1353501893746597888

Tesla's SELF DRIVING Beta Avoids Deer At Night on Dirt Roads | Also Drives Without Headlights!
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pWJoe8hwu_I&feature=youtu.be

People who say it cannot be done should not interrupt those who are doing it.

NeilT

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Re: Electric cars
« Reply #2169 on: January 25, 2021, 12:46:42 PM »
Interesting on the silicon issue.

A Tesla model S has 67 microprocessors including the dual processor sets for the AP computer.  16 of which sit in the battery.

A BMW 7 series has around 100 of which around 40 are embedded in the engine.

Recent Volvo's also have around 65 microprocessors.

Also the little bit about Brexit was glossed over.  Reality is that manufacturers like VW sucked in tens of millions of microprocessors through the UK as mainland EU countries have more "hostile" attitudes to Asian electronics. The UK would import them and then sell them on to German, French and Italian auto manufacturers with the rules of origin being allowed.  Now rules of origin have changed.

Now the UK is out of the EU, tariffs for these tens of millions of silicon systems have been applied.  They are stuck in the UK and VW and others can't get them out without paying the price the EU wants to levy.

They are trying to do it the hard way and order direct from Taiwan, only to find that nobody has scaled up for that additional increase in orders.

Tesla, of course, won't be hurt by this as it will set up in Germany direct with supply lines already in place.  Brexit won't be an blocker.

Trade is international politics and international politics languishes in the sewer.
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Re: Electric cars
« Reply #2170 on: January 25, 2021, 01:34:00 PM »
Reality is that manufacturers like VW sucked in tens of millions of microprocessors through the UK as mainland EU countries have more "hostile" attitudes to Asian electronics.

That makes little sense to me, 
The single market makes goods acceptable regardless of port of entry and the port of entry for a significant amount of goods from the far east destined for the UK was Rotterdam.

blu_ice

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Re: Electric cars
« Reply #2171 on: January 25, 2021, 03:16:01 PM »
Reality is that manufacturers like VW sucked in tens of millions of microprocessors through the UK as mainland EU countries have more "hostile" attitudes to Asian electronics.

That makes little sense to me, 
The single market makes goods acceptable regardless of port of entry and the port of entry for a significant amount of goods from the far east destined for the UK was Rotterdam.
I suppose Rotterdam was mostly a transit port only and the import to the EU was done in the UK.

Besides that minor detail I agree with you 100%. If goods were good to import to the EU via UK, they were good to import via any member state.

Unlike duty, VAT is national but the importers can pass that on. And UK VAT rate wasn't lower than for example German VAT rate.

NeilT

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Re: Electric cars
« Reply #2172 on: January 25, 2021, 06:59:12 PM »
Besides that minor detail I agree with you 100%. If goods were good to import to the EU via UK, they were good to import via any member state.

Unlike duty, VAT is national but the importers can pass that on. And UK VAT rate wasn't lower than for example German VAT rate.

I have a local friend here in France who has a son that works for a UK company which produces heavy tankers for liquid transport.  They sell all over the world but nowhere in the EU and especially not in Germany.  Far too many "rules" which are not EU rules.

The UK has been used for easy finance (less rules), easy import (less rules), easy export (Danish bacon sold in the UK but reared in a way which is illegal in the UK).

If you were following the Brexit negotiations closely, you would know that rules of origin for vehicles was crucial.  Both for the UK and the EU because UK imported parts would have driven EU vehicles over the threshold for rules of origin and the same for UK parts and vehicles.

The EU, at the last gasp, dropped some conditions on rules of origin but not all.  EV's and technology components like chips were, as far as I know, excluded.  From being easier to import through the UK, these components have become cheaper to import direct from China and Taiwan.

They have crippled the ability of the UK to compete on electrical vehicles and now they have a shortage in microprocessor components.

Enjoy!
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Re: Electric cars
« Reply #2173 on: January 25, 2021, 08:23:22 PM »
—- U.S.: new government initiatives for EVs and clean energy
Quote
Gary Black (@garyblack00) 1/24/21, 5:47 PM
On 2/23 Biden will present his Build Back Better infrastructure plan to first joint session of Congress. The clean energy piece will include restoration of full $7,500 EV tax credit without 200K cap, which both $TSLA and GM exceeded. Details next two wks.
https://twitter.com/garyblack00/status/1353474507122552835
Article below.
Quote
Whole Mars Catalog (@WholeMarsBlog) 1/24/21, 6:37 PM
When Biden said “make it available for the middle class”
That seems to imply changing it go directly off the vehicle’s price. no tax credit
because right now it’s only accessible to people with $7,500 of tax liability
https://twitter.com/wholemarsblog/status/1353487190106402816
WMC:  california recently started doing this and it’s niiiice
WMC: you just don’t do anything. the price is just less

Biden Infrastructure Plan Pushes Better Roads, EV Chargers, Mass Transit
Quote
In the long run, rewarding U.S. auto workers with better pay would make the U.S. auto industry more competitive with China, in the race to dominate the global market for electric vehicles, according to the Biden organization. 
Biden’s automotive scheme is heavy on high-tech, pushing electric and autonomous vehicles, and Internet-connected “smart” highways and an extensive recharging infrastructure.

More Places to Plug In
One key Biden proposal is to add 500,000 electric vehicle chargers. That would be a huge increase to the existing network.

Carbon-Neutral Program
The Clean Cars initiative calls for government fleets to switch to electric vehicles, plus the possible extension, or addition to, consumer tax credits for purchasing electric vehicles. Electric vehicles and plug-in hybrids currently qualify for a $7,500 income tax credit for the first 200,000 electrified vehicles sold. Tesla and General Motors have both capped out.

The Biden infrastructure plan also includes a proposal for “high-quality, zero-emissions public transportation options.” Those include light-rail networks and infrastructure for bicycles and pedestrians, on top of existing transit and bus lines, for roughly the 300 biggest cities in the United States.

The goal is for the U.S. government to achieve “a carbon pollution-free power sector by 2035.”
https://www.forbes.com/wheels/news/biden-infrastructure-plan-better-roads-ev-chargers-mass-transit/


—- Non-Tesla app for Tesla owners offers a look into fleet usage, 2019 vs. 2020
Quote
StatsApp (@StatsTeslaApp) 1/24/21, 6:43 PM
It’s strange that peak of average efficiency across all users was lower in 2020 compared to 2019
https://twitter.com/statsteslaapp/status/1353488750580359168
< I would imagine significantly more inefficient short journeys in 2020 with many longer trips not being taken and thus impacting output
⬇️ Graph below.
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GrauerMausling

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Re: Electric cars
« Reply #2174 on: January 26, 2021, 09:01:04 AM »
Reality is that manufacturers like VW sucked in tens of millions of microprocessors through the UK as mainland EU countries have more "hostile" attitudes to Asian electronics.

That makes little sense to me, 
The single market makes goods acceptable regardless of port of entry and the port of entry for a significant amount of goods from the far east destined for the UK was Rotterdam.

Doesn't make sense and is therefore also not true. I'm working for one of those 'Asian' manufacturer of micro controller. Those are shipped neither via the UK nor via Rotterdam but always via air freight, a lot via Frankfurt but of course it depends on where the micro controller are used by the likes of Bosch, Continental and others. Not so much by the OEMs. Most manufacturing is done in Germany, but there is some manufacturing in France but also e.g. Ireland.
Those items have a far to high cost / weight ratio to send them via ship.

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Re: Electric cars
« Reply #2175 on: January 26, 2021, 09:28:39 AM »
Doesn't make sense and is therefore also not true. I'm working for one of those 'Asian' manufacturer of micro controller. Those are shipped neither via the UK nor via Rotterdam but always via air freight, a lot via Frankfurt but of course it depends on where the micro controller are used by the likes of Bosch, Continental and others. Not so much by the OEMs. Most manufacturing is done in Germany, but there is some manufacturing in France but also e.g. Ireland.
Those items have a far to high cost / weight ratio to send them via ship.

Thank you for the insight. I hadn't considered that they may not come by container

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Re: Electric cars
« Reply #2176 on: January 26, 2021, 10:23:40 AM »
Doesn't make sense and is therefore also not true. I'm working for one of those 'Asian' manufacturer of micro controller. Those are shipped neither via the UK nor via Rotterdam but always via air freight, a lot via Frankfurt but of course it depends on where the micro controller are used by the likes of Bosch, Continental and others. Not so much by the OEMs. Most manufacturing is done in Germany, but there is some manufacturing in France but also e.g. Ireland.
Those items have a far to high cost / weight ratio to send them via ship.
I work for a freight forwarder handling imports to Europe and fully agree with you. Reasons to import via another EU country are commercial or logistical, ie. a company in member state A has a supplier in Asia and they import all cargo first to their own country and then sell to their customers in member states B, C and D. This way they can either control the supply chain or get economies of scale logistically.

NeilT

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Re: Electric cars
« Reply #2177 on: January 26, 2021, 01:25:26 PM »
Doesn't make sense and is therefore also not true. I'm working for one of those 'Asian' manufacturer of micro controller. Those are shipped neither via the UK nor via Rotterdam but always via air freight, a lot via Frankfurt but of course it depends on where the micro controller are used by the likes of Bosch, Continental and others. Not so much by the OEMs. Most manufacturing is done in Germany, but there is some manufacturing in France but also e.g. Ireland.
Those items have a far to high cost / weight ratio to send them via ship.
I work for a freight forwarder handling imports to Europe and fully agree with you. Reasons to import via another EU country are commercial or logistical, ie. a company in member state A has a supplier in Asia and they import all cargo first to their own country and then sell to their customers in member states B, C and D. This way they can either control the supply chain or get economies of scale logistically.

Which makes my point.

It is not just rules on taxation of imports.  It is company law, financial law, ease of access, ease of setting up a business relationship.

I work regularly in the EU.  I have a UK limited company.  To set that up in the UK I need £150 and a UK registered address.  In Belgium I need a degree and put down a €16,000 deposit.


Commercial law is entirely different in different EU countries.  The UK has the most open commercial law in Europe and the least regulation over businesses.

To assume that a HUGE impact such as the UK, the 5th largest economy in the world, leaving the EU, would have little or no impact on the EU, even when the motor trade was heavily lobbying the commission to make an exception to vehicle parts, is a little disingenuous.

Ford manufactures 1.6m engines in Dagenham each year.  It sold 155k cars in the UK in 2020.  These engines will have up to 30 or 40 micro controllers in them.

To try and avoid rules of origin it is highly likely that EU vehicle manufacturers are trying to get more stock of micro controllers in order to fabricate out of the UK.

Now they are finding that supplier relationships, commercials and supply chain don't change in a few weeks.
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Re: Electric cars
« Reply #2178 on: January 26, 2021, 05:36:24 PM »
—- EU battery manufacturing support
Quote
Giga Berlin / Gigafactory 4 (@gigafactory_4)1/26/21, 10:05 AM
NEWS: Statement by #EU Executive Vice President Vestager on approval of €2.9 billion public support - #Tesla and others will get battery funding. Mr. Steinbach was commenting on that a few minutes ago.
ec.europa.eu/commission/pre… twitter.com/joergstb/statu…
https://twitter.com/gigafactory_4/status/1354082924421918723

Quote
@GF4Tesla .build #GigaBerlin. (@Gf4Tesla)1/26/21, 10:26 AM
#GigaBerlin
EU gives green light for funding of planned battery factory in Grünheide.
The EU supports projects that meet the IPCEI standard.
IPCEI means "Important Project of Common European Interest".
mwae.brandenburg.de/de/bb1.c.69387… 
https://twitter.com/gf4tesla/status/1354088343676583938
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Re: Electric cars
« Reply #2179 on: January 26, 2021, 08:54:09 PM »
The US government will replace its 650,000 vehicle fleet with EVs.

https://oilprice.com/Latest-Energy-News/World-News/Biden-To-Replace-Federal-Fleet-With-EVs.html

Quote
Biden To Replace Federal Fleet With EVs
By Irina Slav - Jan 26, 2021

President Joe Biden has vowed to replace the almost 650,000-strong federal vehicle fleet with electric cars as part of his climate agenda.

“The federal government also owns an enormous fleet of vehicles, which we’re going to replace with clean electric vehicles made right here in America made by American workers,” the President said on Monday, as quoted by Reuters.

Quote
All U.S. carmakers have ambitious EV programs, not to mention the many EV startups jumping on the climate change bandwagon with a variety of models, most of them at the prototype stage.

GM, for instance, plans to have 30 electric models by 2025. The total investment, including spending on autonomous models, will come in at $27 billion. Ford is also pouring billions—$11.5 billion by 2022 to be precise—in EVs, betting on electric versions of its most well-known and popular models such as the Transit and the F-150.

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Re: Electric cars
« Reply #2180 on: January 26, 2021, 09:11:56 PM »
We need all school buses to be ev's as well. The federal government pays a part of transportation costs.

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Re: Electric cars
« Reply #2181 on: January 27, 2021, 10:18:26 AM »

Which makes my point.

It is not just rules on taxation of imports.  It is company law, financial law, ease of access, ease of setting up a business relationship.

I work regularly in the EU.  I have a UK limited company.  To set that up in the UK I need £150 and a UK registered address.  In Belgium I need a degree and put down a €16,000 deposit.


Commercial law is entirely different in different EU countries.  The UK has the most open commercial law in Europe and the least regulation over businesses.

To assume that a HUGE impact such as the UK, the 5th largest economy in the world, leaving the EU, would have little or no impact on the EU, even when the motor trade was heavily lobbying the commission to make an exception to vehicle parts, is a little disingenuous.

Ford manufactures 1.6m engines in Dagenham each year.  It sold 155k cars in the UK in 2020.  These engines will have up to 30 or 40 micro controllers in them.

To try and avoid rules of origin it is highly likely that EU vehicle manufacturers are trying to get more stock of micro controllers in order to fabricate out of the UK.

Now they are finding that supplier relationships, commercials and supply chain don't change in a few weeks.
Well, no. You said chips were imported to the EU via Britain because continental countries were more "hostile" towards Asian manufacturers. Nowhere have you shown any proof for this hostility. Commercial reasons don't require "hostility" elsewhere.

Most importantly the current microchip shortage is global, not restricted to the EU or the UK.
https://www.marketplace.org/2021/01/11/ford-latest-automaker-cut-production-microchip-shortage/
Quote
In Louisville, Kentucky, Monday, a Ford factory that assembles the Escape SUV began a weeklong shutdown because it doesn’t have enough semiconductor supplies. It has become the latest automaker to feel the impact of a global chip shortage.
There are many logistical bottlenecks around the globe right now. Most are Covid caused, Brexit is adding a local insult to injury.

BTW on the World Bank Ease of Doing Business index the highest ranking European country is Denmark, the global number 4. The UK is ranking second in Europe and 8th globally. Interestingly, 16 EU countries share the number 1 spot on Trading across Border section, while the UK is number 33.
https://www.doingbusiness.org/en/rankings

But now we are getting off-topic.

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Re: Electric cars
« Reply #2182 on: January 27, 2021, 11:13:38 AM »
Yes I saw the article which states it is demand driven.

I will leave my suspicions to myself and watch the situation unfold.  It is a very recent change.

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Re: Electric cars
« Reply #2183 on: January 27, 2021, 11:30:18 AM »
The US government will replace its 650,000 vehicle fleet with EVs.

Good sound byte.  But.

Chevy Bolt

Quote
Although the car is assembled near Detroit, it has only 20% domestic-parts content.[32]

Analysts expected Bolt production at 22,000 per year, and Ampera-e at a few thousand.[33] Production may increase to 30,000 to 50,000 per year according to demand.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chevrolet_Bolt#:~:text=Although%20the%20car%20is%20assembled,per%20year%20according%20to%20demand.

Chrysler doesn't have one but is pushing plug in hybrid.

Ford F150?

Quote
In June 2020, Ford announced the unnamed fully-electric F-150 was to begin production within two years of the introduction of the 2021 F-150; i.e., by 2022

Leaving? Tesla.

Not sure how that will work with Federal procurement requirements for competition.

It is a worthy goal but if it is more than a soundbyte right now I'll be very happy.
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Re: Electric cars
« Reply #2184 on: January 27, 2021, 04:26:18 PM »
Honestly, the sourcing of said EVs is of secondary importance, as long as they are EVs and not the hybrid variety.

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Re: Electric cars
« Reply #2185 on: January 27, 2021, 04:29:55 PM »
It might be good if the government would say, “Here’s $ dollars for your division.  Your task is to eliminate X percent of ICE vehicles from your fleet in the next two years.  You can buy lower cost EV replacements, one-for-one...  or, make do with fewer, more expensive EVs. You work it out.”

Especially as autonomy becomes widespread, this will make more sense.  (And Tesla has a million autonomy-ready cars already on the street....)
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Re: Electric cars
« Reply #2186 on: January 27, 2021, 04:58:30 PM »
Let's be fair.

Autonomy almost ready.  The hardware is there. The software is close, but no cigar yet.
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Re: Electric cars
« Reply #2187 on: January 27, 2021, 06:01:16 PM »
Honestly, the sourcing of said EVs is of secondary importance, as long as they are EVs and not the hybrid variety.

I've been watching some UK TV live.  We are being bombarded daily with the "wonderful" benefits of PHEV.  There are BEV adverts but nowhere near as many.

The FF lobby want to see PHEV and they are willing to pay to push it through.

I'm sure this will bleed into the federal purchases.
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Re: Electric cars
« Reply #2188 on: January 27, 2021, 07:51:08 PM »
a federal mandate on all electric school buses would go a long way. They do not need to travel very far and spend almost as much time spewing polutants at children as they do going down the road.

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Re: Electric cars
« Reply #2189 on: January 28, 2021, 06:59:05 AM »
Re:  They school buses do not need to travel very far

In cities i wholeheartedly agree, the pollution load is already so high there.

But there are children in rural areas with loooong bus rides, longer in bad weather. An hour and a half to school, same back. I have a friend who recalls three hour journeys in the sixties, but things have got better since. I suppose sustainably sourced biodiesel is an option.

sidd

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Re: Electric cars
« Reply #2190 on: January 28, 2021, 08:22:30 AM »
Or they could be taught 3 days per week via computers at home and would go to "real" school only 2 days. Lots of miles saved

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Re: Electric cars
« Reply #2191 on: January 28, 2021, 01:07:01 PM »
Re:  They school buses do not need to travel very far

In cities i wholeheartedly agree, the pollution load is already so high there.

But there are children in rural areas with loooong bus rides, longer in bad weather. An hour and a half to school, same back. I have a friend who recalls three hour journeys in the sixties, but things have got better since. I suppose sustainably sourced biodiesel is an option.

sidd

School busses are unlikely to average more than 40mph in rural communities.  Even a 1.5 hour journey will only be 60 miles, 120 round trip.  Due to school bus requirements, there is ample window to charge them between arriving for school start and when they are next needed (usually end of day).

This should not be prohibitive with sufficient support.

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Re: Electric cars
« Reply #2192 on: January 28, 2021, 03:19:02 PM »
The American yellow school bus is used for few things other than transporting kids, so they usually would have 5 or 6 hours to charge batteries during the day.  I recall seeing, in other countries, buses designed for commuters/shoppers/tourists with "School Bus" in the Route Number slot, clearly available for other routes/purposes at other times of the day/week.

A quick internet search found ".. to put Wi-Fi in school buses so students can study on long commutes home" suggests really long bus commutes is a thing!

I had a friend in school who was the oldest child in the family, and from a very young age he drove a car, with siblings, from the ranch (house) to the road (a few miles = several kilometers) whence they then spent over an hour on a small school bus.
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Re: Electric cars
« Reply #2193 on: January 28, 2021, 08:42:10 PM »
BREAKING: General Motors plans to exclusively offer electric vehicles by 2035 as part of a larger plan for the automaker to be carbon neutral by 2040 in its global products and operations.
General Motors plans to exclusively offer electric vehicles by 2035
Quote
Dane Parker, GM chief sustainability officer, reiterated that the company plans to be profitable in its transition from vehicles with traditional internal combustion engines to EVs.

GM has already announced plans to shift three of its U.S. plants to produce electric vehicles. …
https://www.cnbc.com/2021/01/28/general-motors-plans-to-exclusively-offer-electric-vehicles-by-2035.html

  2035? you’re think you’re gonna be selling gas cars in 15 years?
  Yikes. Good luck staying solvent if the transition takes you that long. and it’s just a “target”.

  https://twitter.com/wholemarsblog/status/1354833483781218307


—-
How Tesla’s Charging Stations Left Other Manufacturers in the Dust
Quote
Selling electric cars requires a robust charging network. But, investments in building a massive charging network make sense only if there is a large enough user base and demand for these chargers. Tesla has such a network, and everyone else’s is laughable. How did this happen and what can Tesla’s history teach us?


Interestingly, another newcomer, Rivian (which has yet to sell a single vehicle) is also building a proprietary charging network, like Tesla’s. Rivian is splitting its stations between major highways and campgrounds, a perfect fit given its focus on electric adventure vehicles. …
https://hbr.org/amp/2021/01/how-teslas-charging-stations-left-other-manufacturers-in-the-dust

—-
Quote
Elon Musk (@elonmusk)12/31/11, 8:06 AM
Hacked my Tesla charge connector on a small island in the rain last night #whatcouldpossiblygowrong
https://twitter.com/elonmusk/status/153099684280410112
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Re: Electric cars
« Reply #2194 on: January 29, 2021, 07:23:29 AM »

The difference in cost for cars is battery costs 137 $/kwh with 100 $/kwh making up the difference in cost. electric cars have pack sizes between 30-100 kwh at 100 kwh the car pack adds 13700 to price but gas drive trains (engine & transmission & drive axles) are about $6000-7000. A few Electric motors are cheaper than gas drive trains.
A diesel school bus is around 100000 and electric is 220000. the larger electric school bus has 155 kwh battery pack. @137 $/kwh that is $ 21235 minus diesel drive train plus electric motors. The rest of the cost difference is low volume (a few hundred a year) and one time engineering costs. Requiring all electric school buses should bring the difference between diesel and electric down to less then 20% immediately. Cost parity or cheaper easily within 5 years. Annual cost savings for electric school busses run about $6800 per year by one estimate.


Apparently Biden's plan has a buy only electric school buses within 5 years portion. 



the North American school bus fleet has about 600000 buses US federal school bus life expectancy is calculated at 15 years. About 40000 school buses a year.  Districts rarely keep buses more than a few school years beyond this and then usually as maintenance spares. Electric school buses should be built for 20 or 25 year lifetimes at least.


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Re: Electric cars
« Reply #2195 on: January 29, 2021, 12:56:44 PM »
In fact it should be easy to have a "public vehicle" base platform for Electric mass transport with dismountable body that can easily be replaced/refurbished.

Assuming the body will become tired before the drivetrain.  Battery would need to be exchangeable too.  As battery prices drop toward $50 per kw/h, electric school busses could last for a very long time indeed.

Although it does become a bit like the brush you have had for 50 years.  It's had 3 new handles and 10 new heads.... ;)

It also leaves the door open for automated school busses.  Although minors without a supervisor is not usually a good thing.
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Re: Electric cars
« Reply #2196 on: January 30, 2021, 03:51:09 AM »
Yeah I am not sure a school bus without an adult present would be such a good idea either.

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Re: Electric cars
« Reply #2197 on: January 30, 2021, 08:39:38 AM »
Well, we have problems with school buses with just a driver because he can't look a the road and at the kids.

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Re: Electric cars
« Reply #2198 on: January 30, 2021, 11:59:31 AM »
Well I suppose a self drive bus with a conductor would solve that one.
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Re: Electric cars
« Reply #2199 on: February 01, 2021, 04:52:07 PM »
ELECTRIFY OR DIE:  GM just sped up the depreciation of everything it owns
Quote
Companies facing massive technology shifts have two choices—bet the company on the next era, or collect cash in a shrinking industry before hanging up your spurs. Plenty of companies fail to make the leap: Kodak in digital photography, Blackberry in smartphones, and most newspaper companies on the internet, to name a few.

GM is going to try. On Thursday, Detroit’s biggest automaker said it plans to exclusively offer electric light-duty cars and trucks by 2035, five years ahead of a previously announced goal and part of a broader mission to make its production and operations carbon neutral by 2040.

The Great Write-Off
By moving up its EV goalposts, the company is speeding up the depreciation of its factories and supplier relationships, but also its decades of intangible know-how. The world’s automakers have learned better than anyone how to squeeze every last drop out of their mastery of the internal combustion engine, a technology first installed in commercial cars in 1886. Turning away from this is more than just junking materiel; it’s abandoning a competitive advantage formed over more than a century.

In its place, legacy automakers must build entirely new strengths: electric batteries, self-driving software, mobility networks, and more. That’s one major reason Tesla, valued at $752 billion, is the world’s most valuable automaker, even though GM sold more than 20 times as many vehicles in 2019 (pdf). The market is now valuing something else, says David Keith, an engineer and professor at the MIT Sloan School of Management. “Do you want to be the company that bends metal in a very low-margin business,” he says, “or a technology business with reoccurring revenue and a blue-sky valuation?” Today’s automaker strengths are tomorrow’s stranded assets.

Think of it like this: GM could double down on selling internal combustion engine vehicles through 2040, while EVs (still only about 3% of new car sales globally) erode its market. By then, however, it would be too late to catch up with companies that spent billions of dollars retooling their factories and workforce. Traditionally, it takes about six years to roll out new vehicle models, and more than a decade to design a new engine, says Keith. That kind of lag would qualify GM for the ranks of Kodak and Blackberry.

“In a five-year time frame, the best thing you could do is make money selling Silverados and Escalades,” says Keith. “All the money is in selling SUVs and pickup trucks. It’s incredibly hard to actively pull back and say it’s all going to pay off in five or 15 years. It’s not what a lot of investors want to hear.” But that’s the bet almost all major automakers are now making.

So far, VW has been the most aggressive. After a disastrous bet on diesel and a €30 billion ($36 billion) emissions scandal, the German automaker is spending €73 billion ($86 billion) to flip the script with autonomous electric cars. Time is short: EVs outsold diesel cars for the first time in Europe this September. By 2028, the company is targeting production of 28 million EVs and 70 different models, a goal some analysts say is out of reach. ...
https://qz.com/1966116/electric-cars-will-speed-up-depreciation-of-everything-gm-owns/
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