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Author Topic: Petermann Fjord / North Greenland  (Read 26120 times)

Espen

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Petermann Fjord / North Greenland
« on: April 30, 2013, 09:23:22 AM »
Southern shore:

Joe Island/ Petermann Peninsula / Kap Morton /  Kap Lucie Marie /
Constance Glacier / Kap Handy / Edith Glacier /
Faith Glacier / Cecil Glacier /
Kap Bemerton / Kap Coppinger / Kap Godthåb / Kap Schouby / Romer Søer (Lakes)/


Since it is one of the most watched places in Greenland, at least among ice enthusiasts, I think it's interesting that we get some place names from the area.

Starting from the mouth of the Petermann Fjord, to the right (southern shore) we find Joe Island *) and Kap Morton and Kap Lucie Marie, about 10 - 15 kms inside the fjord we have 2 small glaciers Constance and Edith , the survival of these 2 glaciers is questionable since the ice cap at the top of Petermann Peninsula seems to be retreating. 50 - 60 kms from Kap Morton we find Faith Glacier and Cecil Glacier the first is still flowing into the Petermann Glacier (PG) in the fjord, the latter glacier seems to be starving (retreating) and have no direct contact to PG.

*) Joe Island named after the Inuit Joe Ebierbing, Hannah Island in Bessels Fjord  the next fjord south of of Petermann Fjord is named after Joes wife Hannah. See more:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ebierbing
http://www.nunatsiaqonline.ca/stories/article/65674taissumani_march_81/

The following places / names are measured from  Kap Morton.
Kap Bemerton 75 km
Kap Coppinger 85 km
Kap Godthåb 110 km
Romer Søer (Lakes) 115 km 2 lakes a about +/- 50 km2 , best seen in July - September.
Kap Schoubye 130 km

https://mapsengine.google.com/map/edit?mid=zbdKKg4fRHYo.kjkUmepfXc9A

« Last Edit: June 20, 2013, 11:43:03 PM by Espen »
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Espen

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Re: Petermann Fjord / North Greenland (West)
« Reply #1 on: April 30, 2013, 09:29:45 AM »
Northern shore:

Kap Tyson / Offley Island / Kane Plateau / Belgrave Glacier / Hubert Glacier / Hall Land / Sigurd Berg Glacier / Kap Agnes / Hellerup Land / Porsild Glacier / Kap Godhavn / Kap Egedesminde

The northern shore of the fjord begins at Kap Tyson and about 1 km from here we find Offley Ø (Island) a small island (+/-2 km2).
All kms (distances) from Kap Tyson:
35 km, we have a unnamed glacier for some reason not known, so I named it "First one to the left Glacier" (prelim. name). Feed from Kane Plateau.
45 km, we meet a +/- 2 km wide glacier named Belgrave. It was at Belgraves doorstep Petermann Glacier (PG) calved on July 16 2012. Belgrave is feed from Hall Land.
At 50 km we find  a "small" 1 km glacier named Hubert.
At 65 km we find a "medium" 3½ km glacier named Sigurd Berg. At the left of the glacier we find Kap Agnes that is a part of Hellerup Land. Sigurd Berg is feed from Hall Land.
At 85 km we have a sizable 7½ km glacier named Porsild probably in honour of Alf Erling Porsild http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Erling_Porsild
To the right of Porsild we have Kap Godhavn. Porsild is feed from Hall Land.
At 115 km we find Kap Egedesminde an rock atoll in the sea of ice.

https://mapsengine.google.com/map/edit?mid=zbdKKg4fRHYo.kjkUmepfXc9A

« Last Edit: May 03, 2013, 11:09:02 PM by Espen »
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Espen

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Re: Petermann Fjord / North Greenland (West)
« Reply #2 on: April 30, 2013, 04:06:16 PM »
Image from IceBridge 2013:

Belgrave Glacier

Belgrave Glacier entering and joining Petermann Fjord and Glacier, the Petermann calving front from July 16 2012 is clearly seen in front of Belgrave.
April 2013

« Last Edit: May 03, 2013, 11:12:55 PM by Espen »
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Espen

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Re: Petermann Fjord / North Greenland (West)
« Reply #3 on: April 30, 2013, 04:12:23 PM »
Image from IceBridge 2013:

Sigurd Berg Glacier entering the P-fjord and P-glacier April 2012, Kap Agnes and Hellerup Land is seen to the right, and Kap Fulford to the left of the glacier
« Last Edit: May 03, 2013, 11:13:52 PM by Espen »
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Espen

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Re: Petermann Fjord / North Greenland (West)
« Reply #4 on: April 30, 2013, 04:36:48 PM »
Image from IceBridge 2013:

Faith Glacier entering the fjord seen in the background and the July 16 2012 Petermann calving front.
« Last Edit: April 30, 2013, 09:04:38 PM by Espen »
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DrTskoul

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Re: Petermann Fjord / North Greenland (West)
« Reply #5 on: April 30, 2013, 09:00:40 PM »
Image from IceBridge 2013:

Faith Glacier entering the fjord seen in the background and the July 16 2013 Petermann calving front.

You can see the future???   :p
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Re: Petermann Fjord / North Greenland (West)
« Reply #6 on: April 30, 2013, 09:01:48 PM »
Very nice images, Espen. Say, do you have some map that shows the geographical position of these glaciers?
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Andreas Muenchow

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Re: Petermann Fjord / North Greenland (West)
« Reply #7 on: April 30, 2013, 10:07:01 PM »
I may work with Espen to put all these locations onto a single map for reference ... unless he has done it already. There are also some sources that I am still checking and comparing against nautical charts of the U.S. National Imagery and Mapping Agency that I have. Espen's "secret" sources are probably Danish and thus should both be more complete and accurate.

I am also checking his 2013 IceBridge photos against my own from 2003 and 2012.

A good general source for Greenland Charts (aviation) is http://www.lib.utexas.edu/maps/onc/ which have more detail than what can be found, but again, Espen's list appears more complete.

EDIT: Faith Glacier in one of the photos is really Cecil Glacier.
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Re: Petermann Fjord / North Greenland (West)
« Reply #8 on: May 01, 2013, 11:30:38 PM »
Petermann Google File

In the attached Google Earth kmz file below you will find many place names from Petermann Fjord and surroundings, when opening the file zoom in on Northern Greenland / Petermann Area.


Hate to confess my ignorance but I don't see any difference with the kmz file enabled or off. I downloaded, opened google earth, went to Petermann Fjord & zoomed in, but I don't find any difference when toggling the new GE5B file.


Any help much appreciated.
Terry

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Re: Petermann Fjord / North Greenland (West)
« Reply #9 on: May 02, 2013, 03:05:32 AM »
Petermann Google File

In the attached Google Earth kmz file below you will find many place names from Petermann Fjord and surroundings, when opening the file zoom in on Northern Greenland / Petermann Area.


Hate to confess my ignorance but I don't see any difference with the kmz file enabled or off. I downloaded, opened google earth, went to Petermann Fjord & zoomed in, but I don't find any difference when toggling the new GE5B file.


Any help much appreciated.
Terry

Terry,

I'm experiencing the same problem - I'm also noting that the file downloaded is only 1kb in size whereas on the website it says 28kb. Not sure what needs to happen - Espen?

Craig

TerryM

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Re: Petermann Fjord / North Greenland (West)
« Reply #10 on: May 02, 2013, 08:47:41 AM »
Espen


That's a hell of a nice piece of work. I won't be online much until after the weekend & I'll try it again then.


I wonder if Arcticio might have any suggestions, he's done some amazing things with GE.


Terry

Hunter

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Re: Petermann Fjord / North Greenland (West)
« Reply #11 on: May 02, 2013, 11:08:16 AM »
A few years ago we informally named the small "no name" glacier above petermann to "Russell-Farley" glacier after an exciting/adventurous run down it in the plane.  (named for pilot and scientist)

Just some of our local jargon.

Laurent

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Re: Petermann Fjord / North Greenland (West)
« Reply #12 on: May 02, 2013, 01:33:32 PM »
I downloaded the file, unziped it, there is not much in it !? for me it is 291 bytes !
************************************************
<?xml version="1.0" encoding="UTF-8"?>
<kml xmlns="http://www.opengis.net/kml/2.2" xmlns:gx="http://www.google.com/kml/ext/2.2" xmlns:kml="http://www.opengis.net/kml/2.2" xmlns:atom="http://www.w3.org/2005/Atom">
<Document>
   <name>~GE5B.kmz</name>
   <visibility>0</visibility>
</Document>
</kml>
****************************************************
http://www.google.com/earth/outreach/tutorials/kmz.html
May be a kml file will be enough ?

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Re: Petermann Fjord / North Greenland (West)
« Reply #13 on: May 02, 2013, 01:38:17 PM »
*.kmz are actually *.zip files - Winzip opens them. Probably something went wrong during export. There should be either a few '<Placemark>' entries or at least one '<Link>' entry.

mspelto

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Re: Petermann Fjord / North Greenland (West)
« Reply #14 on: May 02, 2013, 01:46:34 PM »
The placemarks in Google Earth do not appear to be in any collective folder.   Create a new folder and drag them all in, then when you close the folder the placemarks should disappear if they are int folder.  Then save the folder and post.

Espen

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Re: Petermann Fjord / North Greenland (West)
« Reply #15 on: May 02, 2013, 05:33:09 PM »
A few years ago we informally named the small "no name" glacier above petermann to "Russell-Farley" glacier after an exciting/adventurous run down it in the plane.  (named for pilot and scientist)

Just some of our local jargon.

Hi Hunter;

How is life up there in the the white stuff?

Liked that story about the Glacier "No Name" in Newman Bugt, it is somehow my "pet" glacier, so any information about it is welcome. Do you know if they have images from the "valley" flight, but as said all infos are welcome.

regards

Espen
« Last Edit: May 02, 2013, 05:43:26 PM by Espen »
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Andreas Muenchow

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Re: Petermann Fjord / North Greenland (West)
« Reply #16 on: May 02, 2013, 05:42:59 PM »
Using Espen's place names, I was able to search a number of documents ad sources (both hard-copy and internet) trying to verify the names. I found that the lat/lon of the internet data bases are almost always off or contan many contradictions. My very preliminary map (to be developed further with Espen and others, perhaps) is attached, more detail and photos are at a blog post that I wrote last night and put up just now, e.g.,

http://icyseas.org/2013/05/02/petermann-photos-places-and-people/

I hoping to use it as an organizing theme for the many photos that I have that are NOT geo-referenced. Perhaps we have given Mauri another 10 glacier that have not been written about?
« Last Edit: May 02, 2013, 07:19:14 PM by Andreas Muenchow »
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Espen

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Re: Petermann Fjord / North Greenland (West)
« Reply #17 on: May 02, 2013, 06:37:36 PM »
Hi Andreas;

I am sure Mauris keyboard is burning now! ;)

Some realy nice pics, and I presume they are all from Petermann Fjord.

Lots of work to be done, and I would love to be to any assistance if needed.

But it is funny that such a "watched" place relatively speaking "was" so nameless?

Espen
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Re: Petermann Fjord / North Greenland (West)
« Reply #18 on: May 02, 2013, 06:43:25 PM »
Come on, it can't be "Unnamed" now. It's got to be the Russell-Farley Glacier.

Espen

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Re: Petermann Fjord / North Greenland (West)
« Reply #19 on: May 02, 2013, 07:03:43 PM »
Anne;

The "Russell-Farley Glacier" is not in Petermann Fjord, but in the next door Fjord to the north (Newman Bugt).
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Re: Petermann Fjord / North Greenland (West)
« Reply #20 on: May 02, 2013, 07:09:07 PM »
Thanks, Espen! I need to pay more attention.

Espen

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Re: Petermann Fjord / North Greenland (West)
« Reply #21 on: May 02, 2013, 07:24:40 PM »
A few years ago we informally named the small "no name" glacier above petermann to "Russell-Farley" glacier after an exciting/adventurous run down it in the plane.  (named for pilot and scientist)

Just some of our local jargon.

The "Russell-Farley" or Newman Bugt Glacier, actually calved in 2012, unnoticed? Although I reported the calving on Arctic Sea Ice Blog and Mauris blog:

http://glacierchange.wordpress.com/2012/08/27/zachariae-isstrom-further-retreat-ne-greenland/

http://rapidfire.sci.gsfc.nasa.gov/cgi-bin/imagery/single.cgi?image=crefl2_143.A2012243131000-2012243131500.250m.jpg

So we had a record breaking 1-2-3 calving event that year in that part of Greenland:
Petermann, Steensby and Newmann Bugt.

« Last Edit: May 03, 2013, 11:06:59 PM by Espen »
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Espen

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Re: Petermann Fjord / North Greenland (West)
« Reply #22 on: May 02, 2013, 09:22:21 PM »
Sot Pits now and then:

The sot-pits on the image below, reminds me of a report written by Coppinger in 1876 I read some time ago; I quote: "The surface was thickly studded with circular pits, about six inches deep, and from 1 to 18 inches in diameter, usually containing a little snow and some DARK powder of which I obtained specimens."

The image is from Andreas blog: http://icyseas.org/2013/05/02/petermann-photos-places-and-people/

And the documentation on sot in 1876 is from Dr. R. W. Coppingers report from Petermanns Fjord (also supplied to me from Andreas a couple of years ago):

« Last Edit: May 02, 2013, 09:45:23 PM by Espen »
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Re: Petermann Fjord / North Greenland (West)
« Reply #23 on: May 02, 2013, 10:18:13 PM »
@Espen:

Those are references to cryoconite that often forms small holes on glaciers on account that dark particles like dust or tiny rocks or soot story more sun light than the white snow and ice that reflect it all. The Woods Hole Oceanographi Institution has a good visal and write-up on this:

http://www.whoi.edu/page.do?pid=80696&i=5163
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Espen

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Re: Petermann Fjord / North Greenland (West)
« Reply #24 on: May 03, 2013, 03:52:49 PM »
Here is a link to Petermann Fjord Place Names.

Comments please, text and contents contributions are welcome.

Espen

https://mapsengine.google.com/map/edit?mid=zbdKKg4fRHYo.kjkUmepfXc9A
« Last Edit: May 03, 2013, 06:27:53 PM by Espen »
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Espen

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Re: Petermann Fjord / North Greenland (West)
« Reply #25 on: June 20, 2013, 11:40:18 PM »
The Petermann Glacier calving front from 2012 is now clearly seen and soon the turquoise part of the fjord will turn into open water:
« Last Edit: June 21, 2013, 12:41:54 PM by Espen »
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Espen

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Re: Petermann Fjord / North Greenland
« Reply #26 on: June 25, 2013, 09:52:12 PM »
Here is an animation of the calving events in 2010 and 2012 plus a fake calving in 2009.
The Petermann Express:
https://docs.google.com/file/d/0B_a0Tecpig0jUTgtU3FhRUIwQ00/edit?usp=sharing
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Espen

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Re: Petermann Fjord / North Greenland
« Reply #27 on: July 23, 2013, 11:06:45 AM »
Petermann Glacier Calving Fronts from 2009 - 2013:

Please click on image to enlarge!

« Last Edit: July 23, 2013, 11:27:55 AM by Espen »
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Re: Petermann Fjord / North Greenland
« Reply #28 on: July 23, 2013, 11:19:54 AM »
That fissure's quite a long way back. How long would it take for the glacier to retreat to that point? Many, many years, I'd guess.

Thanks for those images, Espen!
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Espen

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Re: Petermann Fjord / North Greenland
« Reply #29 on: July 23, 2013, 11:27:11 AM »
Ne
That fissure's quite a long way back. How long would it take for the glacier to retreat to that point? Many, many years, I'd guess.

Thanks for those images, Espen!

Thanks Neven;

I know it is long way back, but it is the only serious fissure to be found :)
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Shared Humanity

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Re: Petermann Fjord / North Greenland
« Reply #30 on: July 23, 2013, 03:44:54 PM »
Ne
That fissure's quite a long way back. How long would it take for the glacier to retreat to that point? Many, many years, I'd guess.

Thanks for those images, Espen!

Thanks Neven;

I know it is long way back, but it is the only serious fissure to be found :)

Stupid questions......... How long would it take for such a fissure to propagate across the width of the glacier? Are you suggesting this fissure could be the site of the next major calving event?

Espen

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Re: Petermann Fjord / North Greenland
« Reply #31 on: July 23, 2013, 07:44:08 PM »
Ne
That fissure's quite a long way back. How long would it take for the glacier to retreat to that point? Many, many years, I'd guess.

Thanks for those images, Espen!

Thanks Neven;

I know it is long way back, but it is the only serious fissure to be found :)

Stupid questions......... How long would it take for such a fissure to propagate across the width of the glacier? Are you suggesting this fissure could be the site of the next major calving event?

I don't know if this fissure will even cross the fjord/glacier and if it does, I don't expect it to be the center of the next calving event, maybe sometimes in the future? I have scrutinized the whole glacier from the front and backwards, and the fissure at Kap Bemerton is the only serious visible one to be found.
And on the other hand you never know when the next real calving happens, it could be now for reasons we are not aware of.
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Re: Petermann Fjord / North Greenland
« Reply #32 on: August 30, 2013, 12:28:39 AM »
 I thought this had significant implications for Peterman Glacier/Fjord/Ice sheet - not sure where it fits best though.   [Fufufunknknk posted about this on Neven's Blog -Thanks Fufufunknknk and of course Neven] 

Using data from NASA’s Operation IceBridge, which uses a special type of radar to peer underneath the ice's surface, the new research found a canyon that stretches for at least 465 miles from Greenland’s interior to its northwest coast. Parts of the canyon are a half mile deep and over 6 miles wide. In comparison, the Grand Canyon is 277 miles long and at its deepest point is over a mile deep and 18 miles wide.

The researchers who found it have dubbed it a “paleofluvial megacanyon,” indicating that it was formed by a river well before Greenland’s ice sheet covered it up some 3.5 million years ago.

But the canyon is more than just an awe-inspiring discovery. According to Jonathan Bamber, professor of physical geography at Bristol University, U.K., the canyon effectively funnels water from Greenland’s interior to the ocean. He stressed that the melting processes under the ice have little connection with climate change.

However, as it nears the periphery, that water can affect the periphery of the ice sheet, particularly the shelves that stretch out into the ocean. There, ice has been slipping into the ocean and melting faster in recent decades.

One dramatic example is the Petermann ice shelf, which sits near the mouth of the canyon. The ice shelf made headlines in 2010 when it shed an iceberg four times the size of Manhattan and again in 2012 when it shed another iceberg half that size.

In 2008, researchers found channels in the bottom of the Petermann ice shelf, which weakened the ice and turned out to be harbingers of the events to come. Their findings suggested that warmer ocean water caused the channels. However, the new study suggests the mega canyon may be playing a role here as well.

“We argue that an important contribution to these undershelf channels is that there’s a large amount of subglacial channels,” Bamber said.

http://www.climatecentral.org/news/newly-discovered-greenland-mega-canyon-sends-water-to-the-sea-16415 

A topographic map of bedrock underneath Petermann - which I've been viewing the past few days - shows the present calving-front to be near the lowest point, about 1000 meters below sea level, currently. I was already thinking that this might explain some of the "reluctance" of PII2012 - that it might be very tall and might have been dragging on the bottom?   

Now, in light of the new information about the "mega-canyon" (below) I have to wonder just how deep the fjord will get as the calving front progresses?  (Technically is it a fjord? since it is a pre-glacial canyon formation? - too many questions)  Following the basal formation inland, the depth at the future calving front will either prove to be  more deep or more shallow (assuming it moves inland etc) etc. 

This must surely affect the flow rate.

Wow. 

Espen

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Re: Petermann Fjord / North Greenland
« Reply #33 on: August 30, 2013, 08:39:56 AM »
Yes believe the tunnel system system inside Petermann and other similar glaciers do have an important role in the calving/disintegration proces. I noticed a tunnel in the Helheim Glacier when it calved on July 24 2013, check the video below, it is seen at 2 min. 50 and there after in that huge turning piece  ice:

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Re: Petermann Fjord / North Greenland
« Reply #34 on: August 30, 2013, 09:19:41 AM »
A question is maybe also if this canyon is fully below sea level. This earlier recent paper by Bamber et al gives sort of an indication this might be a possibility:
http://www.the-cryosphere.net/7/499/2013/tc-7-499-2013.pdf

Sea in particular their map in figure 3a. Could warmer sea water in time work it's way into the interior of the ice sheet through this canyon, as maybe also thru the trough extending from Jakobshavn Isbrae into the interior, if that one is indeed fully below sea level, as Bamber et al seem to think is a likely possibility?

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Re: Petermann Fjord / North Greenland
« Reply #35 on: August 30, 2013, 09:24:09 AM »
I have just updated the Helheim calving with more frames, since there obviously were several dates of calving events:
« Last Edit: August 30, 2013, 09:40:44 AM by Espen »
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Re: Petermann Fjord / North Greenland
« Reply #36 on: August 30, 2013, 10:43:36 AM »
From the BBC-article posted by Fufufunknknk over at the ASIB:
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/science-environment-23866810

'The ice sheet, up to 3km (2 miles) thick, is now so heavy that it makes the island sag in the middle (central Greenland was previously about 500m above sea level, now it is 200m below sea level).

The canyon still runs “downhill”, though, and meltwater from the ice sheet seeps out below sea level at the northern end – at a relative trickle, rather than a torrent. Glaciologists think the canyon plays an important role in transporting sub-glacial meltwater produced at the bed towards the ocean.'

I suppose this means the canyon is fully below sea level.

Laurent

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Re: Petermann Fjord / North Greenland
« Reply #37 on: August 30, 2013, 11:33:19 AM »
You can see the Petermann bedrock here :

Download available here :
http://svs.gsfc.nasa.gov/vis/a010000/a011300/a011354/
Yes, the canyon is below see level !
" Regions of the topography above sea level are shown in shades of green while areas below zero are coloured by shades of brown. Yellow indicates the area near sea level "
(from : http://svs.gsfc.nasa.gov/vis/a000000/a004000/a004097/ )


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Re: Petermann Fjord / North Greenland
« Reply #38 on: August 30, 2013, 05:17:49 PM »
And here is NASA's article on the canyon (with the video, and a link to IceBridge).

http://www.nasa.gov/content/goddard/nasa-data-reveals-mega-canyon-under-greenland-ice/#.UiC2g-A9Pe5
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