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Author Topic: Worst consequence of AGW  (Read 15835 times)

nanning

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Re: Worst consequence of AGW
« Reply #200 on: November 18, 2019, 07:31:18 PM »
Obviously, nanning, you have access to the Internet.

Quote from: nanning
I live by my own high morality in my actions and life path (if possible in current society).
Emphasis by me.
What do you want me to do more Tom? Is there any relation with your own actions and life? A mirror is missing ;).
"It is preoccupation with possessions, more than anything else, that prevents us from living freely and nobly" - Bertrand Russell
   Simple: minimize your possessions and be free and kind    It's just a mindset.       Refugees welcome

Tor Bejnar

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Re: Worst consequence of AGW
« Reply #201 on: November 18, 2019, 08:33:07 PM »
Quote
What do you want me to do more ...?
Maybe be a hermit on some mountaintop leaving us alone  ;D ;) :P ::)
Then I could feel guiltless about dreaming of having a Tesla Model 3 (or X or Semi).  Because of you (well, not just you, but you get the idea),
  • I try to keep such dreams just dreams, and
  • I sometimes think about actual survival tools for my (adult) kid's benefit.

Speaking of which, I'll be attending a workshop on "How We Win" by peace and social justice activist George Lakey.  I first learned of him through the Movement for a New Society (subsequently participating in a weekend training in 1979).
Arctic ice is healthy for children and other living things.

Tom_Mazanec

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Re: Worst consequence of AGW
« Reply #202 on: November 18, 2019, 09:19:30 PM »
It's possible, even in current society, to live without the internet.
I did it for four decades. I would not like to do it again, but if I thought it would reduce abortion in the country, I would.
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TerryM

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Re: Worst consequence of AGW
« Reply #203 on: November 19, 2019, 12:47:29 PM »
nanning
Thanks for the kind words, but I don't understand your definitions of immorality. Our last two cats had been rescued by my wife when their mother abandoned them beside our pool.
Both were very sick and required ridiculously expensive veterinary services, then feedings of kitten formula by eyedropper for a few weeks.
They lived well into their late teens, then died after another round of expensive vet services. They were unusual in that they never learned to meow. Their needs were met when we heard one of them murmur imploringly.
I like to believe that they each lead a happy, carefree existence. Neither was ever in a fight, neither ever missed a meal, was disciplined, or had any bad health until the end was near.


How this act of kindness could be misconstrued as an act somehow lacking in morality escapes me.


Tor
Did you ever read Maugham's 'The Razor's Edge'? One of the strong themes is that religious studies, even retreating to a frigid Himalayan Peak to seek enlightenment is all an exercise in futility.
The secret is that there is no secret.


Once that's clear, you're freed to follow the mandates of your own conscience without living in guilt, instructing others in their spirituality, or acting in the expectation of reward.


Somerset's works been wonderful companions. Everything he wrote deserves at least two reads.
Terry

Tor Bejnar

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Re: Worst consequence of AGW
« Reply #204 on: November 19, 2019, 03:06:25 PM »
...
Tor
Did you ever read Maugham's 'The Razor's Edge'? One of the strong themes is that religious studies, even retreating to a frigid Himalayan Peak to seek enlightenment is all an exercise in futility.
The secret is that there is no secret.
...
I haven't read that book.  I went to the Himalayan foot hills not to seek enlightenment, but to practice the lack of secrets, and thoroughly enjoyed my time with Buddhist monks, nuns and practitioners.  (I had the opportunity to hold the (a?) famous yeti skull (probably this one), but declined as I didn't 'believe' in it.  But I did get to view it closely.)

Of course, arguing on these fine threads Neven makes available can be seen as being "all an exercise in futility."
Love you!
 :)
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TerryM

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Re: Worst consequence of AGW
« Reply #205 on: November 19, 2019, 03:33:32 PM »
Thanks for the kind thought!


I find that the back and forth helps me organise my thoughts and stay abreast of subjects I care about. There's a collegial atmosphere here that's lacking at so many sites. Most have settled into the habit of disagreeing, sometimes strongly, without being disagreeable.


I came for the ice & stayed for the rest. You're all part of the rest.
Terry

nanning

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Re: Worst consequence of AGW
« Reply #206 on: November 19, 2019, 06:05:35 PM »
nanning
Thanks for the kind words, but I don't understand your definitions of immorality. Our last two cats had been rescued by my wife when their mother abandoned them beside our pool.
Both were very sick and required ridiculously expensive veterinary services, then feedings of kitten formula by eyedropper for a few weeks.
They lived well into their late teens, then died after another round of expensive vet services. They were unusual in that they never learned to meow. Their needs were met when we heard one of them murmur imploringly.
I like to believe that they each lead a happy, carefree existence. Neither was ever in a fight, neither ever missed a meal, was disciplined, or had any bad health until the end was near.


How this act of kindness could be misconstrued as an act somehow lacking in morality escapes me.
<snip>

Dear Terry, I think what you did in caring was intended to be high morality. I'll try to explain why I wrote 'intended'.

It is the whole idea of cats, these are predators, in captivity, brainwashed and owned by humans, which is just another lifeform, a prey animal even. Do you think the 'good life' of your cat has any resemblance to a real natural cat that lives a life in living nature?
We civilisation humans don't have cats for food; to eat them. We don't even put them to work like in the old days catching mice. They are just for fun. Decoration.

It is nice and I appreciate your good intention that you cared for the cats but that caring action in reality, in living nature would not be possible. Only through our supremacy and technology.

This post is meant to be clarifying and friendly  :).
"It is preoccupation with possessions, more than anything else, that prevents us from living freely and nobly" - Bertrand Russell
   Simple: minimize your possessions and be free and kind    It's just a mindset.       Refugees welcome

sidd

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Re: Worst consequence of AGW
« Reply #207 on: November 19, 2019, 10:20:59 PM »
"We don't even put them to work like in the old days catching mice. They are just for fun. Decoration."

Mmmm. Who is we ?

If the barn cats i am looking at right now through the window could read, and cared much what humans think, they might be offended. They hang about around the barns, roam far and wide in the neighbourhood,  get fed at every farmhouse in the vicinity and occasionally die from predation or accident.

If you have any sorta grain storage, mice appear. And shortly thereafter, cats.

sidd

Archimid

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Re: Worst consequence of AGW
« Reply #208 on: November 19, 2019, 11:20:54 PM »
House cats are symbiotic species with humans. We evolved together. We affected their evolution and they affected ours. The same for dogs, cows, sheep, and horses. There is nothing immoral about riding a horse or training a dog to do any job you can train them to do. That's just life.

Then there is food. I know it as a fact that most well-treated cows are more than willing to exchange milk for food, water, and safety. That was bred into them.

 I still struggle with the bull who will enjoy some good years of worry-free living to end up in a slaughterhouse. It is their purpose in life to serve as food for humans, just like zebras are food for lions, cheetas and eventually worms and microbes. And frankly, I like how they taste. So I try not to dwell too much on this question...
I am an energy reservoir seemingly intent on lowering entropy for self preservation.

sidd

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Re: Worst consequence of AGW
« Reply #209 on: November 20, 2019, 05:25:21 AM »
House pets are prisoners. I feel sad to see cats and dogs penned up in houses looking out of windows, allowed out under supervision for small parts of the day. For cats, sometimes never.

That said, i agree that dogs have co evolved forawhile with humans. Cats, much less so.

sidd

nanning

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Re: Worst consequence of AGW
« Reply #210 on: November 20, 2019, 08:01:56 AM »
Thanks sidd, for that voice of reason and morality.

The supremacy is strong here.

Reflecting the 'normal' from civilisation culture. Ye all can't help it I guess. It requires a leap of the mind to break through the safetyglass of the cultural bubble and see humans as just.another.lifeform. Nothing higher or better.

What we see as immoral and normal is a baked-in tradition. That means there has been no thinking! We (civilisation) have always done it like this so it must be absolutely correct and the only possible way.
What's seen as immoral by civilisation has not much to do with my morality theory, even though the words share some syllables. But Jezus' morality views for example, have a lot to do with my morality theory.
Breeding is also a form of supremacy, overriding and destroying living nature's evolution. By destroying natural selection for those plants and animals. Very low morality.

edit: added Jezus' morality
« Last Edit: November 20, 2019, 04:14:10 PM by nanning »
"It is preoccupation with possessions, more than anything else, that prevents us from living freely and nobly" - Bertrand Russell
   Simple: minimize your possessions and be free and kind    It's just a mindset.       Refugees welcome

Archimid

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Re: Worst consequence of AGW
« Reply #211 on: November 20, 2019, 11:13:11 AM »
That's ridiculous.

Quote
When humans were predominantly hunters, dogs were of great use, and thus were domesticated long before cats. Cats, on the other hand, only became useful to people when we began to settle down, till the earth and—crucially—store surplus crops. With grain stores came mice, and when the first wild cats wandered into town, the stage was set for what the Science study authors call "one of the more successful 'biological experiments' ever undertaken." The cats were delighted by the abundance of prey in the storehouses; people were delighted by the pest control.

"We think what happened is that the cats sort of domesticated themselves," Carlos Driscoll, one of the study authors, told the Washington Post


Read more: https://www.smithsonianmag.com/history/a-brief-history-of-house-cats-158390681/#jGHlKbHR0CBwIzZH.99
Give the gift of Smithsonian magazine for only $12! http://bit.ly/1cGUiGv
Follow us: @SmithsonianMag on Twitter


Cats and dogs, together with the rest of the domesticated animals are part of the human species like the bacteria that live on our guts is part of the human species. Cats and dogs without humans evolve into some other species all together and go extinct.
I am an energy reservoir seemingly intent on lowering entropy for self preservation.

TerryM

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Re: Worst consequence of AGW
« Reply #212 on: November 20, 2019, 03:30:43 PM »
sidd
It's not often that I disagree with you.
Perhaps house cats that were snatched from the wild react as you've described. My previous felines had all been quite similar to the "barn cats" you've accurately portrayed. My house was a large part of their territory, but they demanded access to all of their domain.


This pair were never exposed to the wild, or even our backyard. They had no knowledge of, nor attraction to anything beyond the bounds of our residence. An open door, even one leading out to an apartment hallway was something to avoid. Windowsills exposed to full sunlight were prefered places of repose, but the cats never displayed more interest in the outdoors than they did to scenes they viewed on television.


They weren't predatory, probably because they'd never observed predation.  A few neighborhood cats in Vegas would come to visit from time to time and neither of our's showed any interest in defending their food. Probably the only "natural" instinct they displayed was in the territorial defence of a favored chair or carpet.
They certainly weren't cats that could have survived on their own at any stage of their existence, and as nanning mentioned their 'purpose' was ornamental, but they also provided and appreciated companionship.
Just as there is much more to human life than being productive, companionship is something that mammals at least require. These animals might not have protected our grainery, but they provided companionship that was as important to us as a rat free grain might be to a farmer.


My wife claims that she was attracted to me in part after meeting my dog. She was not much larger than a good sized cat, but without the excitability that so many dogs of her size display.
She'd also been separated from her mother far too early.
She naturally house broke herself and had never been trained nor expected to do anything but what she wanted to do. The wife had raised a succession of dogs with her previous husband, they were well trained dogs that would follow any number of verbal commands. Carole had never before met a dog that had been allowed to simply be a dog. One that interacted with people without fear or any sense that people needed to be appeased or appealed to, she was her own person, as a dog, and she viewed us as companions, rather than as masters. No alphas to fear, resist, or to acquiesce to.


She too was a wonderful companion that lived a happy life.


If feeding and caring for these companions was immoral, I'm afraid you'll have to live with the knowledge that you've been conversing with an unrepentant sinner. My interactions with these animals certainly increased their longevity, and if the quality of their life was somehow negatively affected they gave no indication that this was so.
Terry

sidd

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Re: Worst consequence of AGW
« Reply #213 on: November 20, 2019, 09:27:56 PM »
" Cats and dogs without humans evolve into some other species"

Do tell. What definition of species are you using ? Is it you contention that after a few generations in the wild, they cannot interbreed with house pets ? If that is the case, how is is possible today to have wolf-dog crossbreeds ? Although gray wolves and domesticated dogs have lived apart for a very long time ...

sidd

TerryM

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Re: Worst consequence of AGW
« Reply #214 on: November 21, 2019, 06:12:45 AM »
" Cats and dogs without humans evolve into some other species"

Do tell. What definition of species are you using ? Is it you contention that after a few generations in the wild, they cannot interbreed with house pets ? If that is the case, how is is possible today to have wolf-dog crossbreeds ? Although gray wolves and domesticated dogs have lived apart for a very long time ...

sidd


AAAWWK
I searched through my posts, trying to find what context I might have used that phrase in. Thank god I don't need to defend that one! :P


FWIW I'm particularly enamored of the Wolf-Coyote breed that's becoming more prevalent here. Barking is OK, but plaintive howlings warbling through an otherwise silent night are one of the great joys of life.
Terry

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Re: Worst consequence of AGW
« Reply #215 on: November 21, 2019, 11:28:33 AM »
 The wolf and the dog are different species and they interbreed. I'm not sure what is your point.
I am an energy reservoir seemingly intent on lowering entropy for self preservation.

Bernard

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Re: Worst consequence of AGW
« Reply #216 on: November 21, 2019, 12:01:37 PM »
House pets are prisoners. I feel sad to see cats and dogs penned up in houses looking out of windows, allowed out under supervision for small parts of the day. For cats, sometimes never.

Well, not all cats live this way. We have a she-cat, or should I say a she-cat is living in our garden. She lives completely outside, we don't let her inside ever, even in the heart of winter with snow and hard freeze (we live in the mountains). We just feed her, she goes wherever she wants, no barriers whatsoever, but she never ventures much further than the street corner. She's 17 and as healthy as can get a cat of this age.
I've known many stray cats, they mostly live in parasits and scavengers of mankind's food, but many of them could survive in the wild if needed. There would be less of them, but much  more healthy than home/pet cats.

Archimid

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Re: Worst consequence of AGW
« Reply #217 on: November 21, 2019, 12:28:22 PM »
Stray dogs and cats are often impressive. Stray cats and dogs that are not impressive in some way are rare because most of them die of hunger, disease or run over by a car. Without a human source of constant food, their chances are not good and life is rough. That pressure forces quick selection.
I am an energy reservoir seemingly intent on lowering entropy for self preservation.

Tom_Mazanec

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Re: Worst consequence of AGW
« Reply #218 on: November 21, 2019, 02:10:54 PM »
Ferrets would not survive in the wild.
They have enough trouble surviving indoors.
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gerontocrat

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Re: Worst consequence of AGW
« Reply #219 on: November 21, 2019, 02:20:11 PM »
Ferrets would not survive in the wild.
They have enough trouble surviving indoors.
Ferrets have trouble surviving in the wild because man has destroyed most of their natural habitat.

Read on:
https://www.cuteness.com/article/natural-habitat-ferret

European Ferret
The European ferret (Mustela putorius) is found throughout Europe as well as in northern and western Asia and northern Africa. These ferrets are found in forests, meadows, parks, villages, farms and barns. In general, they are located anywhere that their food sources can be found. They feed on mice, rats, small mammals, birds, reptiles and amphibians.

Black-Footed Ferret
The black-footed ferret (Mustela nigripes) is found in North America. Black-footed ferrets are highly specialized predators that depend on prairie dogs for both food and shelter.The majority of the black-footed ferret's diet is made up of prairie dogs. The ferrets live in prairie dog towns in underground tunnels.

Topographical Regions
Ferrets live in a variety of habitats, including plains, forests, mountainous regions, deserts, tundra and grasslands.

Dwindling Numbers
Because of the loss of habitat European ferrets have been faced with, the number of ferrets in the wild is dwindling. The black-footed ferret declined almost to extinction at one point and remains threatened. However, they are making a comeback after a population of over 100 ferrets was discovered in Wyoming. The conversion of grasslands to agricultural use and programs that have been put in place to eradicate prairie dogs have reduced the ferret habitat. It is now less than two percent of what it once was.
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gerontocrat

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Re: Worst consequence of AGW
« Reply #220 on: November 21, 2019, 02:28:28 PM »
" Cats and dogs without humans evolve into some other species"

Do tell. What definition of species are you using ? Is it you contention that after a few generations in the wild, they cannot interbreed with house pets ? If that is the case, how is is possible today to have wolf-dog crossbreeds ? Although gray wolves and domesticated dogs have lived apart for a very long time ...

sidd
The Scottish wildcat is regarded as a separate species of cat. It can and does breed with domestic cats that have gone feral.
____________________________________________________________
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scottish_wildcat
The Scottish wildcat (Felis silvestris silvestris syn. Felis silvestris grampia) is a European wildcat population in Scotland.[1] This population is estimated to comprise between 1,000 and 4,000 individuals, of which about 400 cats are thought to meet the morphological and genetic criteria of a wildcat.[2] The Scottish wildcat population used to be widely distributed across Britain, but has declined drastically since the turn of the 20th century due to habitat loss and persecution. It is now limited to north and east Scotland.[3] It is listed as Endangered in the United Kingdom and is primarily threatened by hybridization with domestic cats.[4] Camera-trapping surveys carried out in the Scottish Highlands between 2010 and 2013 revealed that wildcats live foremost in mixed woodland, whereas feral and domestic cats were photographed mostly in grasslands.[5]
____________________________________________________

However, I do not think the survival or otherwise of domestic pets after "AGW Armageddon" is the worst consequence of AGW. Perhaps I am wrong about that. "ApoCATlypse  now?"
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Tom_Mazanec

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Re: Worst consequence of AGW
« Reply #221 on: November 21, 2019, 02:29:38 PM »
Mustela furo has trouble surviving because of its suicidal curiosity.
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