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Author Topic: Prepping for Collapse  (Read 12591 times)

sidd

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Re: Prepping for Collapse
« Reply #100 on: July 15, 2019, 09:42:12 PM »
Neighbours and community. Unless you live like a hermit, you will have neighbours. Go out and talk to them. Build things together. Help each other out. That will be of far greater help than anything you can do on your own.

sidd

ShortBrutishNasty

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Re: Prepping for Collapse
« Reply #101 on: July 15, 2019, 10:05:00 PM »
You guys are making this difficult, although Gerontocrat was getting warm with the Ayn Rand selfishness stuff.  It's way more basic than capitalism, socialism, liberalism, conservatism, etc., etc..

Just get out your DSM-5: They're called sociopaths, psychopaths, narcissists, or anybody broadly lumped into the Anti-Social Personality Disorder ("ASPD").   They've been in our gene pool ever since we started chasing squirrels and picking berries, as these ASPD traits conveyed enormous survival benefits way back then.

The bad news is that they're very much still around and, depending on who's doing the measuring, make up between 1 and 4% of the population. 

More bad news is that they cannot be cured and they're almost impossible to control.

The really bad news is that they gravitate to far greater concentrations in prisons, Wall Street and  Washington, DC.  So, like it or not, they're running the show.  Into the ground.

The really, really bad news is that once the net and grid go down and a few psychos in the military shirts realize their game is over, they're gonna take it all down.  That's what psychopaths do.

Sorry.  It's been baked into the cake for a long time.  Agriculture, civilization and fossil fuels just sped things up.

Now, to leave on an upbeat "prepping" note, unless you're Aporia_f out in the woods all alone, you should commit to learning the 20 most common ASPD traits and be able to recognize if your brother-in-law is one.
"I'm sorry you feel that way."

Bruce Steele

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Re: Prepping for Collapse
« Reply #102 on: July 15, 2019, 10:32:30 PM »
Nanning, You have taken a couple swipes at me .

Quote from: Bruce Steele on July 14, 2019, 06:45:51 PM
<snippage>
 So currently the only humans living a < 2 ton lifestyle are primitives.
Nanning responds
"I am in that category.
Always knew I was antiderivative.

Never knew that natural selection functions in a capitalistic extremely unequal system as if it were nature. You really must want to belieeeve you are a 'winner'. This rich and powerful Mr. Trump really is a 'winner', isn't he. The 'best fit'.

OK I live on a fairly standard /average income but my farm is worth a lot !  Should I sell it to the highest bidder and give up on my low carbon agriculture self education program ? I have solar panels, I am having Tesla Power Walls installed, my house and farm use very little grid supplied electricity, my water is well supplied , private wells , my septic is not municipal , I don't commute, I make my own biodiesel, I use a battery powered wheel hoe to cultivate the gardens and the bio tractor for tillage,
I collect and compost a couple tons a year.  I farm without outside fertilizer and try to get by without fossil fuels and if push came to shove I could feed several families using the same techniques. Am I privileged ? Yes, I am lucky and comfortable but I am not lazy , contented, or willing to go gently into any good night.
 I personally  think Aporia-filia has an enviable set-up and lives with a carbon footprint that puts most of us to shame. El Cid, Sidd, and I all share an interest in agrarian lifestyles and pursuits. Part of my reason to even explain the details of my farming techniques is to try and show such things are possible without totally giving up on a modern lifestyle. I worry about the  embodied energy of all the material possessions required to pull it off however and I also realize most people have not the time, money, or skill set to buy their own farm and run it this way. But someone should spend  their efforts at getting us off a dependence on fossil fuel and the 10 calories of fossil fuel burned for each food calorie produced.
 So while I can take whatever critique you offer I think you should better explain how you would propose to feed us all without fossil fuel ? Does your < 2 ton CO2 footprint feed anyone, could you feed several families if you had to without ff ?  So I am calling you out, tell us about your carbon footprint and please make your description enviable . People need to believe in something , please forgive me my delusions.
 

GoSouthYoungins

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Re: Prepping for Collapse
« Reply #103 on: July 16, 2019, 02:49:15 AM »
If this prepping thread were real (and not just for daydreaming and amusement) then you would be talking about the best ways to grow food low-tech, the best edible mushrooms, how to bake bread from acorn (like Bruce Steele), the best ways to get clean water, hunting with bows, discussing whether goats or sheep make more sense around a farm, the most resistant fruit-trees that can be grown without spraying, mudbrick-techniques, etc. I think if the proverbial SHTF most of you won't last a week. Sorry. Time to get real.

Well I actually WAY undercut growing food, and started with WATER. But hey, if you think mushrooms are more important than WATER, then this thread probably isn't for you.

Ya, most people will die really quickly in 1st world countries if there is a sudden collapse. How does that make anything being said invalid? You just want to poo poo on any discussion of this sort.
big time oops

GoSouthYoungins

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Re: Prepping for Collapse
« Reply #104 on: July 16, 2019, 02:55:16 AM »
Uhm...not what i had in mind.

So what DID you have in mind? Rather than just whining non-stop, can you actually write in the manner which you seem to think everyone else should write?

If you don´t have a clear stream or other reliable source you should boil it because...

I'd love to drop you off in the middle of nowhere and watch you boil your water. LOL!

And would you have your 2/3 year old do that? Hope not. It is just not an option.

I wonder how the last 1000 generations (until the last 3) of your ancestors reproduced. If just drinking the water available wasn't an option, none of us would be here. You <snip, N.> can't imagine a world outside the one you were raised in, despite that being the world of your great grandparents, and the infinite generations before them.

Have you ever seen a wild animal purify their water before drinking it? LOL!
« Last Edit: July 16, 2019, 10:14:47 AM by Neven »
big time oops

ArcticMelt2

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Re: Prepping for Collapse
« Reply #105 on: July 16, 2019, 04:49:43 AM »
http://www.fao.org/3/ca5249en/ca5249en.pdf

Quote
After decades of steady decline, the trend in world hunger – as measured by the prevalence of undernourishment – reverted in 2015, remaining virtually unchanged in the past three years at a level slightly below 11 percent. Meanwhile, the number of people who suffer from hunger has slowly increased. As a result, more than 820 million people in the world were still hungry in 2018, underscoring the immense challenge of achieving the Zero Hunger target by 2030.

Hunger is on the rise in almost all African subregions, making Africa the region with the highest prevalence of undernourishment, at almost 20 percent. Hunger is also slowly rising in Latin America and the Caribbean, although its prevalence is still below 7 percent. In Asia, Western Asia shows a continuous increase since 2010, with more than 12 percent of its population undernourished today.

nanning

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Re: Prepping for Collapse
« Reply #106 on: July 16, 2019, 05:35:39 AM »
Thank you very much for your reply Bruce.

I'm sorry that my critique appeared personal, it was not. I respect you Bruce, I think you are a good person.

What triggered me:
First comes Archimid (whom I respect as well) with his interpretation of "natural selection" and the implication that because I'm poor and represent the poor, when TSHTF we 'the poor' are easy targets without security and when we die en mass, that is because we are 'less fit'. He calls that natural selection. The infirm also get 'natural' selectioned. What he/she calls our 'natural' world is one of violence, oppression and low morality.
Then you added "primitives". I don't know exactly what a swipe is but I felt a strong urge to react and hold up a reality mirror; point out the basis of supremacy and priviledge. You could also call it racism based on YES/NO affluence.

explain how you would propose to feed us all without fossil fuel ?

It can't be done. We live on borrowed time. When is Earth resource day? We live on borrowed planets. Well, when I say 'we', of course I don't mean the poor consuming the resources! No, that'll be the 'winners', the rich of course. But in this system where the rich take almost everything and don't share, it is called 'natural' selection when it collapses and the poor die. With poor I mean poor in possessions, in material stuff.
It is as if accumulation is seen as a 'natural' survival force. Insane.

Quote
I personally think Aporia-filia has an enviable set-up and lives with a carbon footprint that puts most of us to shame
Great idea, let's reintroduce SHAME. A hint of morality there? Why shame?

Quote
without totally giving up on a modern lifestyle.
This is the problem.

No prepping for me.

Survival: I'm 1m70 (5Ft7); 61 Kg; Blood pressure 120/80 mmHg; Total lung capacity 8L; No pain; I can jump over the saddle of my bike and land on my feet; Very athletic; I can walk on my hands and more gymnastics; I am fast, flexible and very strong. I have a good understanding of humans. Good non-verbal interpretation of humans. My intelligence works excellent outside abstractions; outside. I live in a rural place with a stronger older culture and a different language (Frisian). I make easily contact with others. Not authoritarian.
Hardly have any possessions and therefore mobile and free. In the last couple of years I've learned to go with less and less, and now I feel quite detached from possessions.
This is not just a good preparation but the road to happiness and to live freely and nobly; see Bertrand Russel's quote at the bottom of my posts.

Carbon footprint: In order to have a clear conscience, I cannot participate in any way in the ongoing destruction. So I have to live with a carbon footprint which when multiplied by 8 billion, would not give the living world the current problems. I have no direct emissions. Zero.

Quote
Does your < 2 ton CO2 footprint feed anyone, could you feed several families if you had to without ff ?  So I am calling you out, tell us about your carbon footprint and please make your description enviable.

I am not an expert but tend to look at all the humans through all of the past 5 million years. I just skip the last 250 years. Everything before that is a solution to your question. Though not ultimately sustainable I think (1000+ generations).
---

Quote
But someone should spend  their efforts at getting us off a dependence on fossil fuel and the 10 calories of fossil fuel burned for each food calorie produced.

I really think you are doing great experiments. I've enjoyed reading your posts and your solutions.


Dear Bruce, I feel strongly about these moral things and my language may be a bit stronger. please understand that swiping or putting someone down or whatever is absolutely not my intention.

---
Neighbours and community. Unless you live like a hermit, you will have neighbours. Go out and talk to them. Build things together. Help each other out. That will be of far greater help than anything you can do on your own.
Very good. Working together, sharing. Not being selfish.
You are on the right path I think sidd. And thank you for your, what I see as, higher morailty.

edit:added sidd quote
« Last Edit: July 16, 2019, 06:00:41 AM by nanning »
"It is preoccupation with possessions, more than anything else, that prevents us from living freely and nobly"

Rod

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Re: Prepping for Collapse
« Reply #107 on: July 16, 2019, 05:53:24 AM »
No prepping for me.

Survival: I'm 1m70 (5Ft7); 61 Kg; Blood pressure 120/80 mmHg; Total lung capacity 8L; No pain; I can jump over the saddle of my bike and land on my feet; Very athletic; I can walk on my hands and more gymnastics; I am fast, flexible and very strong.



LOL!   I’m in Gerontocrat’s army and while you are jumping over your bicycle we are going to steal your wife and take your food!  Now what? 

This thread has become totally ridiculous 😂😂😂
« Last Edit: July 16, 2019, 06:04:50 AM by Rod »

Bruce Steele

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Re: Prepping for Collapse
« Reply #108 on: July 16, 2019, 06:36:20 AM »
Nanning, Primitive isn't intended as a derogatory term either, well not by me anyhow. I would like to think we could save something of modern society and adapt it to a more primitive existence .
Primitive to me means living within the limits that local resources constrain you to. Rather like expecting the future to inform the past I suppose .
ps  It's getting hard to ignor the trolls . " It's a shame "



 

nanning

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Re: Prepping for Collapse
« Reply #109 on: July 16, 2019, 08:40:05 AM »
(I put this here because of the recent discussion.)

Great article in the Guardian by Jeff Sparrow:

"Australia's Orwellian anti-refugee system hints at what's to come for climate refugees"
https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2019/jul/16/australias-orwellian-anti-refugee-system-hints-at-whats-to-come-for-climate-refugees


Quotes
"Those are, of course, some of the poorest regions in the world, places that benefited least from the Great Acceleration of consumer capitalism in the post-war era. The carbon-belching industries of the 21st century have not enriched the average person in Somalia – and yet the UNHRC now warns of climate change in that nation exacerbating the floods and droughts already sending millions into camps."

"The oft noted scandal of climate change,” say Geoff Mann and Joel Wainwright in their book Climate Leviathan, “is that whose who caused it will not live to see its full consequences and those who are suffering or will suffer worst did not cause the problem."


"They might have done nothing wrong (few people have smaller carbon footprints than the inhabitants of sub-Saharan Africa).
..
As international law now stands, they’re not entitled to anything."


AND

"Instead of galvanising heroic innovation and international co-operation, growing environmental and socio-economic turbulence may simply drive elite publics into more frenzied attempts to wall themselves off from the rest of humanity. Global mitigation … would be tacitly abandoned – as, to some extent, it already has been – in favour of accelerated investment in selection adaption for Earth’s first-class passengers. The goal would be the creation of green and gated oases of permanent affluence on an otherwise stricken planet."
(bolded by me)

---------
Of course the 'goal' in the last sentence is no more than an insane fantasy by the blinded rich. Completely and deeply addicted and devoid of any empathy.
"It is preoccupation with possessions, more than anything else, that prevents us from living freely and nobly"

nanning

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Re: Prepping for Collapse
« Reply #110 on: July 16, 2019, 08:45:15 AM »
LOL!   I’m in Gerontocrat’s army and while you are jumping over your bicycle we are going to steal your wife and take your food!  Now what?

I don't have a wife or children or other relationship and no food. And I own no house, I rent. I run away. Bye bye.

But this is hypothetical because I don't want to live past the next 10 years and experience 'Gerontocrat' and Rod. At first I though about euthanasia but that has risks and is a hassle. So I plan to go on 'hunger strike' but without the strike. I'll stop eating. Bye bye.

Quote
This thread has become totally ridiculous 😂😂😂
Feeling the heat?
"It is preoccupation with possessions, more than anything else, that prevents us from living freely and nobly"

Human Habitat Index

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Re: Prepping for Collapse
« Reply #111 on: July 16, 2019, 09:00:53 AM »
Aerosol masking effect is ironically keeping us alive.
There is a principle which is a bar against all information, which cannot fail to keep a man in everlasting ignorance. That principle is contempt prior to investigation. - Herbert Spencer

nanning

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Re: Prepping for Collapse
« Reply #112 on: July 16, 2019, 09:03:20 AM »
Nanning, Primitive isn't intended as a derogatory term either, well not by me anyhow. I would like to think we could save something of modern society and adapt it to a more primitive existence .
Primitive to me means living within the limits that local resources constrain you to. Rather like expecting the future to inform the past I suppose .
ps  It's getting hard to ignor the trolls . " It's a shame "

Thank you for explaining. I misunderstood, sorry Bruce.
And thank you for respecting me. I don't have all the answers. I think it is impossible to maintain modern living standards in a mitigated future. I don't think there will be a mitigated future, from looking at reality now. AGW is accelerating because of the large energy imbalance and I think many people don't understand the exponential function, non-linearity. I think consumers are in a strong fantasy (technology=magic) bubble that will soon burst, ie within 10 years. Look at their bodies, their lack of empathy and general lower morality, the mental health problems, suicidal teenagers, loneliness.
We are in the metaphorical situation were the dog is feverishly eating the last piece of cake as it sees the owner approaching with the rolled-up newspaper.
p.s. I am not good in identifying trolls. But I think  it is more than 'a shame'. It is evil.

This is a really great article by a 17yo girl in the Guardian I strongly commend:
https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2019/jul/12/jamie-margolin-zero-hour-climate-change
"It is preoccupation with possessions, more than anything else, that prevents us from living freely and nobly"

El Cid

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Re: Prepping for Collapse
« Reply #113 on: July 16, 2019, 10:22:40 AM »

But this is hypothetical because I don't want to live past the next 10 years and experience 'Gerontocrat' and Rod. At first I though about euthanasia but that has risks and is a hassle. So I plan to go on 'hunger strike' but without the strike. I'll stop eating. Bye bye.

Dude, are you real? If yes then I think you need professional help. Seriously.

Do you know what allegedly Francis of Assisi said when asked what he would do if he knew that tomorrow is the Day of the Last Judgement? He said he would probably plant one more walnut tree. And that is what we all need to do.

pleun

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Re: Prepping for Collapse
« Reply #114 on: July 16, 2019, 10:53:22 AM »
Why do we need so many walnut trees ?

El Cid

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Re: Prepping for Collapse
« Reply #115 on: July 16, 2019, 11:28:43 AM »
it's just a sort of parable. Walnut trees grow very slowly, so if you plant a walnut tree, then the saying is that you plant it for your grandchildren. Planting a walnut tree is an investment into the faraway future...

...just like planting oaks. I planted many hectares of oaks from acorns, it took them 10 years to be 2-3 m tall :) I know I will never harvest those trees.

***EDIT: grafted walnut trees bear fruit faster but grafting walnut is much more difficult then other fruits, so until modern times walnut was usually ungrafted, growing from a chance seedling, and it often took 10 years to see what sort of fruit it bears (in case of a seedling you never know what you get, the fruit will not be like the one you planted) not to mention peak production which might take 20-30 years. 
« Last Edit: July 16, 2019, 11:33:49 AM by El Cid »

Archimid

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Re: Prepping for Collapse
« Reply #116 on: July 16, 2019, 12:55:29 PM »
Quote
First comes Archimid (whom I respect as well) with his interpretation of "natural selection" and the implication that because I'm poor and represent the poor, when TSHTF we 'the poor' are easy targets without security and when we die en mass, that is because we are 'less fit'. He calls that natural selection
.

No. I was asked a very specific situation. Gerontocrat comes around with his Army to take my stuff.  I try to fight him off with my neighbors. Whoever wins, proves to be the strong by winning and survives. The other one doesn't. Natural selection happens. That's all I said.

Rich people are only rich in the current world order. Under collapse, the difference between rich and poor dissolves, and it becomes the connected ones vs the unconnected ones. When food is scarce money losses its value, so there won't be a rich vs poor fight. Rich people lose the most from climate change.

I believe your overreaction stems  from including humans in natural selection. It is true that racist delude themselves into thinking they are strong and like to use natural selection analogies to affirm their superiority other other group they see as unfit. It actually brings me happiness to know that racist will get a huge reality check as they see their perceived superiority dissappears as the world order changes. However, that is not what I'm referring to. I know that "strong" or successful adaptation is a function of the environment, not the individual.
I am an energy reservoir seemingly intent on lowering entropy for self preservation.

gerontocrat

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Re: Prepping for Collapse
« Reply #117 on: July 16, 2019, 12:56:57 PM »

But this is hypothetical because I don't want to live past the next 10 years and experience 'Gerontocrat' and Rod. At first I though about euthanasia but that has risks and is a hassle. So I plan to go on 'hunger strike' but without the strike. I'll stop eating. Bye bye.

Dude, are you real? If yes then I think you need professional help. Seriously.

Do you know what allegedly Francis of Assisi said when asked what he would do if he knew that tomorrow is the Day of the Last Judgement? He said he would probably plant one more walnut tree. And that is what we all need to do.
"Para a Causa do Povo a Luta Continua!"
"And that's all I'm going to say about that". Forrest Gump
"Damn, I wanted to see what happened next" (Epitaph)

gerontocrat

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Re: Prepping for Collapse
« Reply #118 on: July 16, 2019, 01:02:34 PM »
Gerontocrat comes around with his Army to take my stuff.  I try to fight him off with my neighbors.

My "Army" are Freedom Fighters.
You and your neighbours are a bunch of terrorists.

I am therefore justified in wiping you and yours out by any and all means.
"Para a Causa do Povo a Luta Continua!"
"And that's all I'm going to say about that". Forrest Gump
"Damn, I wanted to see what happened next" (Epitaph)

DrTskoul

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Re: Prepping for Collapse
« Reply #119 on: July 16, 2019, 01:11:52 PM »
Gerontocrat comes around with his Army to take my stuff.  I try to fight him off with my neighbors.

And that's the most likely scenario not utopia....
My "Army" are Freedom Fighters.
You and your neighbours are a bunch of terrorists.

I am therefore justified in wiping you and yours out by any and all means.

nanning

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Re: Prepping for Collapse
« Reply #120 on: July 16, 2019, 05:53:30 PM »
And that's the most likely scenario not utopia....
And when the initial conflicts are over, people start dying in droves. Is this a world you want to live in?
AGW means the environment is going to get from bad to worse, accelleratingly (is that a word?). Then there's this fast mass extinction of natural life.

@gerontocrat
Are you being sarcastic/realistic or do you have a cunning plan? Are you Hannibal Smith?

edit: @Archimid: I don't know how to respond.
"It is preoccupation with possessions, more than anything else, that prevents us from living freely and nobly"

Alexander555

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Re: Prepping for Collapse
« Reply #121 on: July 16, 2019, 06:17:17 PM »
I think he's serious, it's the coffee.

ArcticMelt2

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Re: Prepping for Collapse
« Reply #122 on: July 16, 2019, 06:49:44 PM »
India, which understands that the problem of overpopulation, hunger, coal consumption and the shortage of fresh water cannot be solved, is also investing its last money in space colonization.




gerontocrat

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Re: Prepping for Collapse
« Reply #123 on: July 16, 2019, 07:09:12 PM »

And when the initial conflicts are over, people start dying in droves. Is this a world you want to live in?
@gerontocrat
Are you being sarcastic/realistic or do you have a cunning plan? Are you Hannibal Smith?
The people die in droves straight away. Biggest problem is safe and sanitary disposal of the corpses, especially in the cities.

Is this a world we want to live in? Like you think we've got a choice?

Am I being sarcastic/realistic or do I have a cunning plan?  That's for me to know and for you to hope you do not find out.

Am I Hannibal Smith? No. The bullets are real.
"Para a Causa do Povo a Luta Continua!"
"And that's all I'm going to say about that". Forrest Gump
"Damn, I wanted to see what happened next" (Epitaph)

DrTskoul

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Re: Prepping for Collapse
« Reply #124 on: July 16, 2019, 07:17:52 PM »
Every single author/thinker that has dealt with a collapse scenario has ended with the same script.

Just pray there is no collapse in the works. Otherwise the storyline is clear as the day...
« Last Edit: July 17, 2019, 12:45:18 AM by DrTskoul »

oren

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Re: Prepping for Collapse
« Reply #125 on: July 16, 2019, 11:21:44 PM »
The global collapse will come, I am quite certain, probably in 2040-2060. And while I may not be around by then, my daughters will. I just pray my country doesn't collapse much before that (as it seems hell-bent striving toward that goal), or that I manage to relocate beforehand. Thus my only prep is trying to get a foreign passport while the horizon is (relatively) clear.
Post global collapse, I do not expect to survive as a farmer/defender or as a pillager. Not in my skillset or inclination and not enough room on the planet.

nanning

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Re: Prepping for Collapse
« Reply #126 on: July 17, 2019, 07:09:01 AM »
Biggest problem is safe and sanitary disposal of the corpses, especially in the cities.

Bon appétit! Get a flamethrower. Winner!

Quote
Is this a world we want to live in? Like you think we've got a choice?

Yes. Stop living while it's still good. OK, very radical and sad but I see no other choice. It is not living but survival already for most.
The end of the line.
[/quote]
"It is preoccupation with possessions, more than anything else, that prevents us from living freely and nobly"

Villabolo

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Re: Prepping for Collapse
« Reply #127 on: July 17, 2019, 12:50:09 PM »

They've been in our gene pool ever since we started chasing squirrels and picking berries, as these ASPD traits conveyed enormous survival benefits way back then.


They have been in our gene pool for a long time but it definitely did not confer any superior traits. Back then we were social/altruistic people who needed to work together to survive. Psychopaths were likely to have been selected against. There are no selective pressures nowadays so they can thrive in this degenerate society.

That's the reason why I propose eugenics to weed out psychopathic traits from the human gene pool. Mandatory sterilization and/or life in prison if they commit a crime. They can be distinguished from the rest of the population with brain scans so there will be no chance of harming an innocent person.

By the way, squirrels did not have much meat in them and they're hard to catch. More likely we were hunting bigger critters.  :)

DrTskoul

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Re: Prepping for Collapse
« Reply #128 on: July 17, 2019, 01:28:31 PM »
Which altruistic, higher human beings will control eugenics and the decision who is a dangerous psychopath?? Very dangerous path, especially with our history of institutionalizing women in the 1800 and 1900s because they did not conform to the male standards.

Very dangerous...no thank you

Villabolo

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Re: Prepping for Collapse
« Reply #129 on: July 17, 2019, 01:36:53 PM »
Quote
Your choice with a gun is even sadder. What can you do with a gun against hungry soldiers in tanks with guns. It resembles a scene from the movie:



On Earth, you physically can not create a safe haven, inaccessible to robbers.

Tanks only have a 250 mile range and need to be maintained quite often. The fuel they can steal, but the repairs require specialized labor and parts they are not likely to have. Yet generally you're right. That's why I advocate living in self-reliant eco-villages of 300-500 people. Well-armed people. There is safety in numbers.

gerontocrat

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Re: Prepping for Collapse
« Reply #130 on: July 17, 2019, 01:37:38 PM »

That's the reason why I propose eugenics to weed out psychopathic traits from the human gene pool. Mandatory sterilization and/or life in prison if they commit a crime. They can be distinguished from the rest of the population with brain scans so there will be no chance of harming an innocent person.

If people with your views ever get in charge,
God help us.
"Para a Causa do Povo a Luta Continua!"
"And that's all I'm going to say about that". Forrest Gump
"Damn, I wanted to see what happened next" (Epitaph)

DrTskoul

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Re: Prepping for Collapse
« Reply #131 on: July 17, 2019, 01:55:51 PM »
Quote
That's why I advocate living in self-reliant eco-villages of 300-500 people. Well-armed people. There is safety in numbers.

This is "Saviors" level shit.

Villabolo

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Re: Prepping for Collapse
« Reply #132 on: July 17, 2019, 01:56:40 PM »
Which altruistic, higher human beings will control eugenics and the decision who is a dangerous psychopath?? Very dangerous path, especially with our history of institutionalizing women in the 1800 and 1900s because they did not conform to the male standards.

Very dangerous...no thank you

There are brain scans that could tell definitively whether a person is psychopathic or not. I would have triple redundancy in the tests to make sure that there is no mistake. The danger that a psychopath poses to society is well worth the expense and, so long as it is done with 100 percent certainty, society has the moral right to deal with the criminal elements amongst them.

Villabolo

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Re: Prepping for Collapse
« Reply #133 on: July 17, 2019, 02:00:27 PM »
Quote
That's why I advocate living in self-reliant eco-villages of 300-500 people. Well-armed people. There is safety in numbers.

This is "Saviors" level shit.

Perhaps I did not word it carefully. The well-armed villages would be defensive in nature. They would not be marauders or anyone who initiates harm to others.

DrTskoul

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Re: Prepping for Collapse
« Reply #134 on: July 17, 2019, 02:03:31 PM »

There are brain scans that could tell definitively whether a person is psychopathic or not. I would have triple redundancy in the tests to make sure that there is no mistake. The danger that a psychopath poses to society is well worth the expense and, so long as it is done with 100 percent certainty, society has the moral right to deal with the criminal elements amongst them.

No there are no scans that can tell who is a dangerous psychopath or not...good try..

Villabolo

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Re: Prepping for Collapse
« Reply #135 on: July 17, 2019, 02:06:33 PM »

That's the reason why I propose eugenics to weed out psychopathic traits from the human gene pool. Mandatory sterilization and/or life in prison if they commit a crime. They can be distinguished from the rest of the population with brain scans so there will be no chance of harming an innocent person.

If people with your views ever get in charge,
God help us.

Society deals with its criminal elements with imprisonment. Dealing with congenital criminals should be justified. There would be no harm to society in general.

Villabolo

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Re: Prepping for Collapse
« Reply #136 on: July 17, 2019, 02:10:02 PM »

There are brain scans that could tell definitively whether a person is psychopathic or not. I would have triple redundancy in the tests to make sure that there is no mistake. The danger that a psychopath poses to society is well worth the expense and, so long as it is done with 100 percent certainty, society has the moral right to deal with the criminal elements amongst them.

No there are no scans that can tell who is a dangerous psychopath or not...good try..

https://www.med.wisc.edu/news-and-events/2011/november/psychopaths-brains-differences-structure-function/

Also:

https://www.smithsonianmag.com/science-nature/the-neuroscientist-who-discovered-he-was-a-psychopath-180947814/

oren

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Re: Prepping for Collapse
« Reply #137 on: July 17, 2019, 02:14:09 PM »
May I suggest that this psychopathic discussion is OT for this thread?

Villabolo

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Re: Prepping for Collapse
« Reply #138 on: July 17, 2019, 02:26:34 PM »
May I suggest that this psychopathic discussion is OT for this thread?

Sorry about that. I realize that it is a digression.

Villabolo

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Re: Prepping for Collapse
« Reply #139 on: July 17, 2019, 02:31:24 PM »
Neighbours and community. Unless you live like a hermit, you will have neighbours. Go out and talk to them. Build things together. Help each other out. That will be of far greater help than anything you can do on your own.

sidd

Good suggestion.

Villabolo

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Re: Prepping for Collapse
« Reply #140 on: July 17, 2019, 03:11:55 PM »
This might be somewhat off topic but it touches on the subject.

I believe in an alternative civilization.

No cities, no suburbs. In their place a million villages. Self reliant eco-villages of 300-500 persons. Permaculture for their food supply. Stockpiles of food for 10 years - not so much for a social breakdown but necessary for ecological disruption and its consequences for agriculture.

Also, electrical power from windmills and/or solar.

Prepping for social collapse would require that these villages have the tools necessary to live throughout the generations without any input from society at large.

I envision an alliance of these villages both to create an alternative civilization and for the sake of self defense.

This type of society is likely to come about under the right circumstances which would be:

The book. The charismatic leader. Social collapse.

The book would be the equivalent of the Bible for an alternative society. I'm in the process of writing it.

The leader would be the equivalent of Moses. That's definitely not me.

Social collapse would be necessary since the elite of this society will try to put an end to any alternative society that works against their interests. With social collapse they would have other things on their minds and would leave us alone.

The population in general would support such a society and try to emulate them since their civilization would be collapsing without any hope of recovery.

GoSouthYoungins

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Re: Prepping for Collapse
« Reply #141 on: July 17, 2019, 03:22:05 PM »
There are brain scans that could tell definitively whether a person is psychopathic or not.

Lol. Trump and Musk need scans immediately. I think we all know the results, but let's be sure.
big time oops

kassy

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Re: Prepping for Collapse
« Reply #142 on: July 17, 2019, 03:25:41 PM »
re #140

Ambitious writing project.

The problem here is a window of opportunity. You would like a start before things come crumbling down but then you are already on the map. And if you would start them now you might run into all kinds of regulations (i think that Bruce posted about things he could not add to the farm because of legal requirements).
Þetta minnismerki er til vitnis um að við vitum hvað er að gerast og hvað þarf að gera. Aðeins þú veist hvort við gerðum eitthvað.

harpy

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Re: Prepping for Collapse
« Reply #143 on: July 17, 2019, 03:40:04 PM »

And when the initial conflicts are over, people start dying in droves. Is this a world you want to live in?
@gerontocrat
Are you being sarcastic/realistic or do you have a cunning plan? Are you Hannibal Smith?
The people die in droves straight away. Biggest problem is safe and sanitary disposal of the corpses, especially in the cities.

Is this a world we want to live in? Like you think we've got a choice?

Am I being sarcastic/realistic or do I have a cunning plan?  That's for me to know and for you to hope you do not find out.

Am I Hannibal Smith? No. The bullets are real.

Which pathogens are spread from dead corpses that poses such a big threat?

Aporia_filia

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Re: Prepping for Collapse
« Reply #144 on: July 17, 2019, 05:24:29 PM »
We can imagine, dream, have great ideas about how to make a (brave) great new world. We can take important personal decisions on the way we live. Although, I think this will only have a solution in geological time. The problem is global so it is the human spices not the people (as we inevitably tend to think), the one that should change. We are the same people we were 2.000 years ago (or 20.000). Do your best but I'm afraid only evolution could give a chance to humans. Remember that the longest living creatures in the history of this planet are those with fewer energy needs.
https://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2018/08/180822092709.htm
"Looking at a period of roughly 5 million years from the mid-Pliocene to the present, the researchers analyzed 299 species' metabolic rates -- or, the amount of energy the organisms need to live their daily lives -- and found higher metabolic rates were a reliable predictor of extinction likelihood."

SteveMDFP

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Re: Prepping for Collapse
« Reply #145 on: July 17, 2019, 05:40:58 PM »
This might be somewhat off topic but it touches on the subject.

I believe in an alternative civilization.

No cities, no suburbs. In their place a million villages. Self reliant eco-villages of 300-500 persons. Permaculture for their food supply. Stockpiles of food for 10 years - not so much for a social breakdown but necessary for ecological disruption and its consequences for agriculture.

Also, electrical power from windmills and/or solar.

Prepping for social collapse would require that these villages have the tools necessary to live throughout the generations without any input from society at large.

I envision an alliance of these villages both to create an alternative civilization and for the sake of self defense.
 

Seems you're basically describing the Amish.  Why re-invent the wheel?

Bruce Steele

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Re: Prepping for Collapse
« Reply #146 on: July 17, 2019, 05:43:22 PM »
Villabolo, The quote about ASPD and psychopaths was ShortBrutishNasty. There are so many mental health issues that will always be with us, " but for the grace of God." Maybe we shouldn't worry to much about the law or whatever we call the set of rules we use to control our worst instincts. I know it's important to keeping a group of people living together but I think something simple like a return to the golden rule, do unto others as you would have them do unto you. But the one difference would be the golden rule would apply to  all life.  I know I sound a little crazy but if we don't change something very fundamental about our relationship with this planet and the other life forms on this planet we collectively are the psychopaths.
 Look folks we are killing so many other living things that we gotta wonder if we are somehow flawed,
Our morals are not doing an adequate job.


 

gerontocrat

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Re: Prepping for Collapse
« Reply #147 on: July 17, 2019, 05:55:42 PM »
Which pathogens are spread from dead corpses that poses such a big threat?
If you really want to know, read the attached from
https://www.who.int/diseasecontrol_emergencies/guidelines/risks/en/

But in the event of societal collapse, it is likely that bodies will be left to rot, and become a food source for rats, dogs, cats, crows and just about every carnivore and omnivore in a place near you. Even then that might not be so bad if you get over the stink.

The bacteria involved in decomposition are not dangerous, because living people already carry identical germs in their own bodies. The maggots and other insects, though revolting, also constitute no threat to public health. Rats do host fleas, which can transmit typhus, typhoid fever, plague, and other diseases. But rats endanger public health wherever they mingle with people: They are no more harmful when they feed on corpses than at any other time. Despite ancient fears of death’s “miasma,” the foul odor emitted by the body as it rots is innocuous.

In a very few cases, bacteria from corpses can cause illness when they contaminate drinking water in large quantities. This could be a problem where large quantities of bodies are decomposing near a water source.

So it is best to leave the bodies to rot where they are, and AVOID CONTACT. Leaving the city if it is in a state of collapse sounds a good option.
"Para a Causa do Povo a Luta Continua!"
"And that's all I'm going to say about that". Forrest Gump
"Damn, I wanted to see what happened next" (Epitaph)

gerontocrat

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Re: Prepping for Collapse
« Reply #148 on: July 17, 2019, 06:05:10 PM »
Most Governments in the Northern hemisphere already have their plans for dealing with these events. They were prepared during the Cold War - in the UK it was called Civil Defense, and were to allow Government to continue in the event of most of the population being nuked.

One sometimes wonders if Governments are dusting these old plans off, updating them, and checking out the old bunkers that still exist with a view to repair and upgrade.
"Para a Causa do Povo a Luta Continua!"
"And that's all I'm going to say about that". Forrest Gump
"Damn, I wanted to see what happened next" (Epitaph)

Tor Bejnar

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Re: Prepping for Collapse
« Reply #149 on: July 17, 2019, 06:18:29 PM »
Quote
The leader would be the equivalent of Moses. That's definitely not me.
Of course, that's what Moses said:
  • Excuse 1: I’m not good enough - “Who am I that I should go to Pharaoh, and that I should bring the children of Israel out of Egypt?” -Exodus 3:11
  • Excuse 2: I don’t have all the answers -“Then Moses said to God, “Indeed, when I come to the children of Israel and say to them, ‘The God of your fathers has sent me to you,’ and they say to me, ‘What is His name?’ what shall I say to them?” -Exodus 3:13
  • Excuse 3: People won’t believe me - “Then Moses answered and said, “But suppose they will not believe me or listen to my voice; suppose they say, ‘The LORD has not appeared to you.’ ” -Exodus 4:1
  • Excuse 4: I’m a terrible public speaker - “Then Moses said to the LORD, “O my Lord, I am not eloquent, neither before nor since You have spoken to Your servant; but I am slow of speech and slow of tongue.” -Exodus 4:10
  • Excuse 5: I’m not qualified - “But he said, “O my Lord, please send by the hand of whomever else You may send.” -Exodus 4:13  -  Moses’ final excuse is desperate. “Please, anyone but me!”
reference
« Last Edit: July 17, 2019, 07:20:55 PM by Tor Bejnar »
Arctic ice is healthy for children and other living things.