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Shared Humanity

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morganism

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Re: Prepping for Collapse
« Reply #251 on: July 30, 2019, 12:31:01 AM »
Currency (Restrictions on the Use of Cash) Bill 2019 (Australia)

"
14 days left to have your say
blackeconomy@treasury.gov
At a glance summary of how the cash payment limit will work 176.33 KB

In the 2018-19 Budget, the Government announced it would introduce an economy-wide cash payment limit of $10,000 for payments made or accepted by businesses for goods and services. Transactions equal to, or in excess of this amount would need to be made using the electronic payment system or by cheque. The Black Economy Taskforce recommended this action to tackle tax evasion and other criminal activities."

https://www.treasury.gov.au/consultation/c2019-t395788

bluice

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Re: Prepping for Collapse
« Reply #252 on: July 30, 2019, 11:50:09 AM »
Cross posted from Heatwave thread.

https://www.technologyreview.com/s/613343/lessons-from-a-genocide-can-prepare-humanity-for-climate-apocalypse/
Thanks, this was a very interesting and well written piece.

The most important point was that AGW is not some apocalyptic event that will unfold like the ones in our cultural imagination.  It won't come and go and suddenly change our world into a new state.  AGW does not have a beginning and end like asteroid impact or thermonuclear exchange, or zombiecalypse, extraterrestrial invasion or whatever popular catastrophe you prefer.

Instead it is an ongoing process that is already progressing, a switch to a new geological era that will transform the planet into a world that is alien and potentially hostile to us. How do you prepare for such a thing? Installing solar panels? Storing bullets and canned food underground? Yes there will be events, in fact there will be a series of ongoing and increasingly worsening events that will push our civilization towards economic hardship, unrest, chaos, bloodshed and war. The article tells us to learn from native Americans during post Columbine era, surviving in their reservations, adapting to a new way of life and trying to preserve what they can. So what exactly should we do?

I have to admit I am somewhat fascinated to watch all this happen live, although I mourn for the disappearing beauty of the natural world. But the sadness truly hits me when my 7 year old daughter tells me about her interests and future plans. And I know her life will be so different than mine.

nanning

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Re: Prepping for Collapse
« Reply #253 on: July 30, 2019, 06:47:11 PM »
<snippage>

I'm sorry I couldn't resist to respond. I like your posts SH and bluice but,
Quote
AGW is not some apocalyptic event
Okay, so suppose at some point in time at your place there's no electicity for a long time and the shops don't work because large infrastructures don't operate anymore as a direct or indirect result of AGW. What will you do in wintertime when it's freezing? How will you get your ordinary 'neccessary' stuff? What if you don't have safe drinking water? Or water at all. Earth is more than the 'western world'.
How is that not apocalyptic?

Quote
AGW does not have a beginning and end
Yes it does, and the beginning of civilisation collapse is THE END, I think.

Sorry, couldn't resist:
Quote
economic hardship
Ouch. Who will suffer?

Quote
although I mourn for the disappearing beauty of the natural world.
I do too. Very much so, but I have accepted.
"It is preoccupation with possessions, more than anything else, that prevents us from living freely and nobly" - Bertrand Russell
"It is preoccupation with what other people from your groups think of you, that prevents you from living freely and nobly" - Nanning
Why do you keep accumulating stuff?

bluice

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Re: Prepping for Collapse
« Reply #254 on: July 30, 2019, 10:50:09 PM »
Nanning, I have a feeling you somewhat misunderstood me.

My point, and that of the article, is that agw is not an isolated event we know from our popular culture, a some kind of cleansing and baptizing turning point that we need to endure.

Climate change certainly is apocalyptic though. It will keep on going to make peoples lives ever more difficult and at some point maybe impossible.

As you wrote, how can you prepare for something like this?

I strongly suggest you to read the article unless you haven’t already done so. I think you’d appreciate it.

nanning

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Re: Prepping for Collapse
« Reply #255 on: July 31, 2019, 05:49:08 AM »
Thank you bluice. My brain was a bit out of focus and mistier than normal at the end of the of day. I had a great day  :). Maybe I should have resisted stronger.
"It is preoccupation with possessions, more than anything else, that prevents us from living freely and nobly" - Bertrand Russell
"It is preoccupation with what other people from your groups think of you, that prevents you from living freely and nobly" - Nanning
Why do you keep accumulating stuff?

nanning

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Re: Prepping for Collapse
« Reply #256 on: July 31, 2019, 06:23:39 PM »
<snippage>
Hi bluice,
Now I've read the article, I have to agree with you; a very interesting and well written piece I enjoyed reading because it mentions many significant effects. Thanks SH for the cross-post.

Where I differ in view, is how fast it will go. The article refers to years after 2050 when living might get really hard. I don't think it'll come to that. Our interconnected technological infrastructures and global interdependence on parts and resources make the system very vulnerable (e.g. what products in your supermarket or in another shop are made completely locally?).

Then there's lower and lower human morality. There are many groups on the Internet with bigot ideas and violent intent. In another thread someone (DrTskoul?) mentioned bigot people really hating Gretha Thunberg and that throwing her out of a helicopter would be a mild fate compared to other suggestions that were made. Think about it. In desperate situations these people will be violent and torturous. There'll be nothing restraining them apart from other violent groups.
I don't think there'll be a normal stable and safe family 'good life' after the collapse of large infrastructure or with war, hunger, thirst, loss of comforts, really extreme weather.
We'll see how it plays out the coming years. My wish is it'll happen sooner rather than later because of the PLEASE LET THE DESTRUCTION STOP - yell of all other life on Earth. Pity that most human ears are deaf for this yell.
"It is preoccupation with possessions, more than anything else, that prevents us from living freely and nobly" - Bertrand Russell
"It is preoccupation with what other people from your groups think of you, that prevents you from living freely and nobly" - Nanning
Why do you keep accumulating stuff?

DrTskoul

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Re: Prepping for Collapse
« Reply #257 on: July 31, 2019, 06:47:50 PM »
It was not me, but it does not matter. Message is the same. Look, we are talking about collapse, apocalypse etc. it is understood that the consequences are going to be severe but for better or worse it won’t be the end of the human civilization. Humans will find a way. During World War II vast cities have been rendered fields of ramble. Those were rebuilt and nobody remembers that any more. Hundred of thousands have died in an instant in various catastrophes. Nobody remembers or sees the results of now. Famines that killed millions have been overcome.

 However the coming changes will affect the biosphere much more severely as in general other living species take much more time to rebound. Nature eventually rebounds but at a much slower rate. What we are going to lose is the saddest part. There are many parts of the world that we shouldn’t have inhabited any way.

Will there be suffering? Yeah. Should we do everything we can as a society? Absolutely. Should we approach the problem with terror and knee-jerk reactions? No. Will people in general accept a much reduced quality of life as a way to solve the problem? Good luck with that - reduces quality of life will be forced to us by the consequences. It’s a very large and slow moving train. It cannot just be stopped.

I am rambling and probably be nonsensical but this is my gut feeling of how things might unfold.

nanning

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Re: Prepping for Collapse
« Reply #258 on: July 31, 2019, 07:16:39 PM »
I respect your view DrTskoul.
Please respect my view. I could be wrong with my view of course.
I had a minor struggle with this:
<snippage>
Should we approach the problem with terror and knee-jerk reactions?
Assuming you mean my post, I don't think it qualifies as such. That post was my unemotional explanation. There's information in it. You may not like it of course, but it is no knee-jerk. I have given this much much thought and observations.

edit: compared to earlier times our civilisation is now so much more global and technological. I think earlier times are no analogy. Almost forgot the climate crisis and mass extinction event.
« Last Edit: July 31, 2019, 07:23:30 PM by nanning »
"It is preoccupation with possessions, more than anything else, that prevents us from living freely and nobly" - Bertrand Russell
"It is preoccupation with what other people from your groups think of you, that prevents you from living freely and nobly" - Nanning
Why do you keep accumulating stuff?

DrTskoul

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Re: Prepping for Collapse
« Reply #259 on: July 31, 2019, 07:33:25 PM »
I respect your view DrTskoul.
Please respect my view. I could be wrong with my view of course.
I had a minor struggle with this:
<snippage>
Should we approach the problem with terror and knee-jerk reactions?
Assuming you mean my post, I don't think it qualifies as such. That post was my unemotional explanation. There's information in it. You may not like it of course, but it is no knee-jerk. I have given this much much thought and observations.

edit: compared to earlier times our civilisation is now so much more global and technological. I think earlier times are no analogy. Almost forgot the climate crisis and mass extinction event.

I was not referring to your approach. Sorry if I was not clear. I mean society and governments in general. I was not answering or commenting on any ASIF member's view.

Bruce Steele

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Re: Prepping for Collapse
« Reply #260 on: July 31, 2019, 09:01:04 PM »
I have been picking and canning apricots. 7 gallons in pint and quart jars. I still have another twenty pounds to go. Strange thing this because usually it is a race with the birds and picking season would have ended by now.Aug. 1 strange but there are no crows. My resident pair are not around and the murder of crows that normally flies from their roost twice daily past my window are not around either.
The swallows nested and abandoned their nests as they did last year. I don't really have any idea if there is even a problem with the local crow population but something changed or I wouldn't be picking apricots in August.
 I spent almost forty years as a commercial sea urchin diver and the whole nearshore kelp ecosystem has changed in Northern California from what it was thirty years ago. We are about five years into a very large ecosystem shift and after getting to know the kelp ecosystem you expect it to change back.
But cycles not the same thing as clinal shifts or collapses. We expect the world to cycle and for me the hard part is conceptualizing a linear trend , that ecosystems change to something you don't recognize and never change back.
 I am a fisherman, a farmer and much of my success or failure depends on my ability to predict where to go fish, or when I should stay home, when to plant.  The only way to do that is to build up a lot of experiance but how do you deal with an enviornment that changes to one you don't know ? Then changes again .
Pack seeds away like a squirrel in a heavy mast ,I guess.


gerontocrat

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Re: Prepping for Collapse
« Reply #261 on: July 31, 2019, 09:09:01 PM »
That was the Holocene climate - varying, but mostly within limits that did not completely prevent planting and harvesting at least something.

But now we have the anthropocene climate - varying between unknown but greatly expanded limits. Bruce and his fellow farmers & fishermen know the consequences for the rest of us.

Even farmers in Queensland - the Aussie denier heartland, are getting the message big-time.

"Para a Causa do Povo a Luta Continua!"
"And that's all I'm going to say about that". Forrest Gump
"Damn, I wanted to see what happened next" (Epitaph)

DrTskoul

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Re: Prepping for Collapse
« Reply #262 on: July 31, 2019, 09:21:49 PM »
The biggest problem is the uncertainty and the unknown patterns...

TerryM

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Re: Prepping for Collapse
« Reply #263 on: July 31, 2019, 09:43:24 PM »
Bruce
I haven't noticed a lack of crows here yet. Robins and songbirds are scarce and the starlings that were once a plague are gone. I've seen one cardinal in the last two years.
Whatever the birds were that used to rouse me in the early hours have been missing for the last few years.


I'll keep my eyes (and ears) out for crows and report back.
Terry
PS
Ten or so years ago when up near Hudson's Bay a Cree asked what kind of bird we were looking at. It was a robin that was apparently far from his usual habitat.

petm

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Re: Prepping for Collapse
« Reply #264 on: July 31, 2019, 09:58:26 PM »
Even farmers in Queensland - the Aussie denier heartland, are getting the message big-time.

Same in the American heartland.



Somehow country folk are *still* clinging to right-wing propaganda, despite their own direct experiences and the looming loss of their very way of life.

Bruce Steele

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Re: Prepping for Collapse
« Reply #265 on: July 31, 2019, 10:05:17 PM »
The only way to deal with uncertainty is precaution. So maybe if you thought you needed enough food stored away to get you through a failed crop season and enough seed to get you through a second planting season you'd be OK. but two failed planting seasons would mean preparations would require three years of seed set aside and two years of food.
 And no I'm not trying to rationalize why I am canning ten + gallons of apricots.

Terry, I don't think there is anything wrong with the local crows. They probably found free food where they don't fly right past my window. The apricot crop just got me to wondering . But then Newcastles sometimes makes it's rounds. I'd know about Newcastles if it was killing the crows how ever because there would be signs at the feed store.
 But then after a short search

https://www.dailynews.com/2019/02/27/chicken-killing-newcastle-disease-prompts-widespread-quarantines-in-southern-california/

vox_mundi

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Re: Prepping for Collapse
« Reply #266 on: July 31, 2019, 10:11:41 PM »
Bruce, your resilient approach brought this study to mind...

It Pays To Explore In Times of Uncertainty
https://m.phys.org/news/2019-07-explore-uncertainty.html

When making choices, people tend either to go with what they know or try something new. We experience this trade-off every day, whether choosing a route to work or buying breakfast cereal. But does one strategy have an advantage over another? Researchers decided to examine this question by looking at fishing boat captains, who face this choice again and again when deciding where to fish.

To find out which strategy leads to greater success in the real world, scientists from the University of California, Davis, and their coauthors examined 540,000 fishing vessel position records from nearly 2,500 commercial fishing trips in the U.S. Gulf of Mexico, along with their revenues. The results are published today in the journal Nature Communications.

"It looks like exploration pays off in the face of uncertainty," said co-leading author Shay O'Farrell, a postdoctoral researcher in the lab of Professor James Sanchirico from the UC Davis Department of Environmental Science and Policy. "This is particularly important in the context of global environmental change, when disturbances such as storms and droughts are predicted to increase."

The study found that some vessels consistently explore new territory more than others and invest more time and resources into sampling new places to fish. In times of stability, exploratory vessels performed no better or worse on average than vessels that stuck with consistency.

"In relatively stable environments, we would expect that any gains from switching behaviors would usually go away, otherwise vessels would be changing how they fish," Sanchirico said.

But when boats were suddenly forced to fish elsewhere during a 2009 closure of popular fishing grounds in the Gulf, those with a history of exploration experienced significantly less impact from the disruption. That may be because the boat captains could draw from their history of exploration to select new grounds.

O'Farrell suggests the findings may hold lessons for times of uncertainty.

"One way in which we can future-proof our livelihoods is by exploring new options," O'Farrell said. "That way, if our current options become unavailable or less attractive in the future, we can fall back on our knowledge of alternatives. Sharing our knowledge could make us even more resilient still, as we can draw from a larger pool of experience."

Open Access: Shay O'Farrell et al, Disturbance modifies payoffs in the explore-exploit trade-off, Nature Communications (2019)
“There are three classes of people: those who see. Those who see when they are shown. Those who do not see.” ― Leonardo da Vinci

Insensible before the wave so soon released by callous fate. Affected most, they understand the least, and understanding, when it comes, invariably arrives too late

Bugalugs

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Re: Prepping for Collapse
« Reply #267 on: August 01, 2019, 12:49:21 AM »
No apocalypse hits everyone at the same time, unless the world explodes.

The apocalypse is a personal experience.

When you lose your job or home to climate change, and can't find another, the apocalypse has arrived.

Prepping therefore means either making things so you don't need a job to live, or making yourself fully employable in a declining economy.


dnem

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Re: Prepping for Collapse
« Reply #268 on: August 02, 2019, 10:58:00 PM »
<snippage>
Our interconnected technological infrastructures and global interdependence on parts and resources make the system very vulnerable (e.g. what products in your supermarket or in another shop are made completely locally?).

I totally agree Nanning.  The growth dependent global finance system and wickedly complex just-in-time global supply chains are poised on a knife edge and could become drastically unstable very quickly.

morganism

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Re: Prepping for Collapse
« Reply #269 on: August 02, 2019, 11:38:54 PM »
CDMA Network Retirement (now extended to end o 2020)

"As we complete our network transition to 4G and 5G, we at Verizon would like to keep you up to date with some important activities.

We are moving all devices to our HD Voice LTE network, which offers superior coverage and performance compared to previous generation networks.  Starting January 1, 2020, Verizon will no longer allow any CDMA (3G and 4G Non-HD Voice) 'Like-for-Like' device changes.

Additional changes include but are not limited to:

    Starting 1/1/2020:
        No Longer Allowed:
            Transfer of Service, moving from one account to another account
            Bring Your Own Device (BYOD), providing a CDMA device to activate on an existing line
            Swapping one CDMA device for another CDMA device
            Roaming outside of the US

https://www.verizonwireless.com/support/knowledge-base-218813/

This hurts all of us in the western US, where CDMA/Verizin is the only thing that works in mountainous areas.

If you just need to contact your neighbors and you are pretty close, you can use a Go-tenna setup for making a text network over low power radio.

If you have good internet, you can set up a VoIP setup.

https://www.lifewire.com/free-sip-softphone-apps-3426673

5G has VERY limited range, and line of sight basically. In town, they are planning on making ALL routers open as wi-fi repeaters to make up for it, in the mountains, you will basically be losing fone service.

If you are going to add an CDMA/verizon fone before the deadline, make SURE it handles "digital voice" "LTE+" or HDvoice". All others won't work once they go to the new LTE platform.

I would be tempted to buy an el-cheapo , chinese, dual-sim card fone now (huewei?), activate it, and order another sim to use with the VoIP apps listed above.

I did get a Samsung J Luna Sky Pro, (in CDMA and LTE) which said it had HDvoice, but when received, it had no settings for that , just a "stereo voice" feature, which some say still counts. (tracfone)

If comms is important to you, you may want to get a teen to help you figure out what to do soon, before you can't add a new CDMA fone in your area.

for real tech and answers, you need to work the Howard Forums, where the techs hang out.

bbr2314

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Re: Prepping for Collapse
« Reply #270 on: August 03, 2019, 10:20:13 AM »
After watching Titanic for the umpteenth time I realized it is probably not a bad indicator on what to expect in a contained collapse scenario where 1) there will be mass death 2) there will be survivors 3) resource distribution is unequal 4) maximization of absolute NUMBERS for survival is not the key goal and there will be "capacity" to spare for which some will die.

https://titanicfacts.net/titanic-survivors/

31.6% – the percentage of people aboard (passengers and crew) who survived the sinking.

53.4% – the total percentage who could have survived, given the number of spaces available on the lifeboats.

492 – the number of Titanic passengers who survived.

37% – the percentage of passengers who survived.

61% – the percentage of First Class passengers who survived.

42% – the percentage of Standard Class passengers who survived.

24% – the percentage of Third Class passengers who survived.

2 – the number of dogs believed to have survived (both were lapdogs taken onto lifeboats by their owners).

20% – the percentage of male passengers who survived.

75% – the percentage of female passengers who survived.

214 – the number of Titanic crew members who survived.

24% – the percentage of crew members who survived.

22% – the percentage of male crew members who survived.

87% – the percentage of female crew members who survived.

50% – the percentage of Navigation Officers who survived (4 out of 8).

0% – the percentage of Engineering Officers who survived (all 25 perished, bravely working to keep the ship afloat for as long as possible).

100% – the percentage of lookouts who survived.

be cause

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Re: Prepping for Collapse
« Reply #271 on: August 03, 2019, 10:45:31 AM »
I found @ 500 crows/rooks/jackdaws poisoned and dumped at the edge of a local lake 2 years ago .. some folk don't sow a share for nature .. b.c.
2007 + 5 = 2012 + 4 = 2016 + 3 = 2019 + 2 = 2021 
 (phew)

DrTskoul

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Re: Prepping for Collapse
« Reply #272 on: August 03, 2019, 02:23:15 PM »
I found @ 500 crows/rooks/jackdaws poisoned and dumped at the edge of a local lake 2 years ago .. some folk don't sow a share for nature .. b.c.

That is sickening ...
.

Shared Humanity

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Re: Prepping for Collapse
« Reply #273 on: August 03, 2019, 03:20:24 PM »
“This moment in history marks the end of a long, sad tale of greed and murder by the white races. It is inevitable that for the final show we vomited up a figure like Trump. Europeans and Americans have spent five centuries conquering, plundering, exploiting, and polluting the Earth in the name of human progress. They used their technological superiority to create the most efficient killing machines on the planet, directed against anyone and anything, especially indigenous cultures which stood in their way. They stole and hoarded the planet’s wealth and resources. They believed that this orgy of blood and gold would never end, and they still believe it. They do not understand that the dark ethic of ceaseless capitalist and imperialist expansion is dooming the exploiters as well as the exploited. But even as we stand on the cusp of extinction, we lack the intelligence and imagination to break free from our evolutionary past. As the warning signs become more palpable – rising temperatures, global financial meltdowns, mass human migrations, endless wars, poisoned ecosystems, rampant corruption among the ruling class – we turn to those who chant, either through idiocy or cynicism, the mantra that what worked in the past will work in the future. Factual evidence, since it is an impediment to what we desire, is banished.”

Chris Hedges (America: The Farewell Tour)

nanning

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Re: Prepping for Collapse
« Reply #274 on: August 03, 2019, 05:12:18 PM »
Great text SH, thanks.
"It is preoccupation with possessions, more than anything else, that prevents us from living freely and nobly" - Bertrand Russell
"It is preoccupation with what other people from your groups think of you, that prevents you from living freely and nobly" - Nanning
Why do you keep accumulating stuff?

be cause

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Re: Prepping for Collapse
« Reply #275 on: August 03, 2019, 05:37:27 PM »
<iframe src="https://player.vimeo.com/video/240397901" width="640" height="512" frameborder="0" allow="autoplay; fullscreen" allowfullscreen></iframe>
<p><a href="">Marko Pogačnik Gaia Quantum Leap</a> from <a href="https://vimeo.com/bojanbrecelj">Bojan Brecelj</a> on <a href="https://vimeo.com">Vimeo</a>.</p>




« Last Edit: August 03, 2019, 06:15:09 PM by be cause »
2007 + 5 = 2012 + 4 = 2016 + 3 = 2019 + 2 = 2021 
 (phew)

philopek

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Re: Prepping for Collapse
« Reply #276 on: August 03, 2019, 06:03:32 PM »
But even as we stand on the cusp of extinction,

Chris Hedges (America: The Farewell Tour)

Probably i should keep it for myself but that is such a great resume that if the word "extinction" would be replaced with the term "mass mortality" it were a perfect "one-hundred-percenter".
« Last Edit: August 03, 2019, 06:27:07 PM by philopek »

petm

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Re: Prepping for Collapse
« Reply #277 on: August 03, 2019, 06:06:45 PM »
“It is inevitable that for the final show we vomited up a figure like Trump.”
Chris Hedges (America: The Farewell Tour)

Well put.

TerryM

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Re: Prepping for Collapse
« Reply #278 on: August 03, 2019, 07:25:54 PM »
“This moment in history marks the end of a long, sad tale of greed and murder by the white races. It is inevitable that for the final show we vomited up a figure like Trump. Europeans and Americans have spent five centuries conquering, plundering, exploiting, and polluting the Earth in the name of human progress. They used their technological superiority to create the most efficient killing machines on the planet, directed against anyone and anything, especially indigenous cultures which stood in their way. They stole and hoarded the planet’s wealth and resources. They believed that this orgy of blood and gold would never end, and they still believe it. They do not understand that the dark ethic of ceaseless capitalist and imperialist expansion is dooming the exploiters as well as the exploited. But even as we stand on the cusp of extinction, we lack the intelligence and imagination to break free from our evolutionary past. As the warning signs become more palpable – rising temperatures, global financial meltdowns, mass human migrations, endless wars, poisoned ecosystems, rampant corruption among the ruling class – we turn to those who chant, either through idiocy or cynicism, the mantra that what worked in the past will work in the future. Factual evidence, since it is an impediment to what we desire, is banished.”

Chris Hedges (America: The Farewell Tour)


Thanks so much SH!


I fear that the underlined phrase may well be our eulogy, writ large in the jumbled strata that marks our passing.
Terry

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Re: Prepping for Collapse
« Reply #279 on: August 03, 2019, 08:09:55 PM »

we turn to those who chant, either through idiocy or cynicism, the mantra that what worked in the past will work in the future. Factual evidence, since it is an impediment to what we desire, is banished

I fear that the underlined phrase may well be our eulogy, writ large in the jumbled strata that marks our passing.
Terry
Terry.
Buck up. You know very well that all is for the best in the best of all possible worlds.

I am told the Buddhists say that what is to come is necessary. That our individual fates are part of the necessary wheel of life for us as individuals.
My daughter also tells me that the Dalai Lama has said that he is the last. When he is gone - that's it. (No matter if the Chinese put a puppet in his seat).

See, I told you, everything is for the best (he said, reaching for the alcohol).
"Para a Causa do Povo a Luta Continua!"
"And that's all I'm going to say about that". Forrest Gump
"Damn, I wanted to see what happened next" (Epitaph)

TerryM

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Re: Prepping for Collapse
« Reply #280 on: August 03, 2019, 08:27:49 PM »
après moi le déluge - said the narcissist to his gullible unlettered disciples.

I'd no idea that Mr. Lama was so full of - - (himself?)

Pass the bottle, and don't bogart that joint my friend.
Terry

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Re: Prepping for Collapse
« Reply #281 on: August 03, 2019, 08:28:56 PM »
Right on....

Rich

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Re: Prepping for Collapse
« Reply #282 on: August 03, 2019, 09:27:32 PM »
It is inevitable that for the final show we vomited up a figure like Trump.

I guess it was also inevitable that the Democrats vomited up Hillary Clinton, one of the only people who could have lost to Trump?

Nature abhors a vacuum. If American's couldn't vote against the interests of Goldman Sachs, they rolled the dice on someone who they hoped would destroy the whole system.

Now, the Goldman types are propping up Biden while nature is pushing Sanders to fill the vacuum.

I'm off to check out Sen. Sanders live this afternoon and then partake in the excellent, cheap and legal weed Vegas has to offer.

Catch ya' later quitters.

bbr2314

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Re: Prepping for Collapse
« Reply #283 on: August 04, 2019, 02:03:27 AM »
What is wrong with you people. It's like the flagellants during the Bubonic Plague. White people are just like other people. Where would we be without electricity, modern medicine, etc. It is easy to say "omg white people evil" while ignoring all the positives. Just as it's easy to say white people are to blame for slavery when it was actually the Africans who were first engaging in the practice (not that it is acceptable in either case, but really, why is one evil worse than the other).

If you want to flagellate I guess that's fine but I don't think it is a reasonable response and I'm not going to join you or condone it.

TerryM

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Re: Prepping for Collapse
« Reply #284 on: August 04, 2019, 02:08:19 AM »
What is wrong with you people. It's like the flagellants during the Bubonic Plague. White people are just like other people. Where would we be without electricity, modern medicine, etc. It is easy to say "omg white people evil" while ignoring all the positives. Just as it's easy to say white people are to blame for slavery when it was actually the Africans who were first engaging in the practice (not that it is acceptable in either case, but really, why is one evil worse than the other).

If you want to flagellate I guess that's fine but I don't think it is a reasonable response and I'm not going to join you or condone it.


Should we assume you're white then?
Terry

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Re: Prepping for Collapse
« Reply #285 on: August 04, 2019, 02:24:40 AM »
One of the few silver linings of Trump is that a lot of thinly buried ... is being unearthed. It's amazing the contortions people achieve to do deny reality. Very close analog to climate change denialism, and not at all disconnected.

Of course white people are to blame and of course bigotry and inequality persist. We won't be able to fix bigotry until the obvious truth of it is accepted, just as we won't be able to fix climate change until the obvious truth of it is accepted.

And the argument that Trump is some kind of antidote to big money is patently absurd. He is by far the most corrupt president in recent history, and it was obvious from the that start he would be.
« Last Edit: August 04, 2019, 02:59:22 AM by petm »

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Re: Prepping for Collapse
« Reply #286 on: August 04, 2019, 03:04:38 AM »
In other news (not news, hasn't changed since the '80s and well before), this is a neat clip pre-dating the internet by decades in which Al Gore plainly states the reality of climate change and its consequences, at a time when strong action probably would have been early enough to avert ecosystem collapse. The ruling class has clearly known for ~50 years what's coming. Don't hold your breath for imminent action.



Jump to minute 1:00 to see Gore's short CSPAN clip.

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Re: Prepping for Collapse
« Reply #287 on: August 04, 2019, 03:25:26 AM »
Quote
The ruling class has clearly known for ~50 years what's coming.

I don't think they do. If they did they wouldn't let it happen. Climate change  will take most from the ones who have the most. Its the end of the world as we know it. Those with power will lose it, those with money will lose it.

I do agree that they think some bad stuff is going to happen to poor countries while they eat popcorn. They probably think a culling is a good idea, the fools. Their confirmation bias blinds them to what is coming.
I am an energy reservoir seemingly intent on lowering entropy for self preservation.

petm

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Re: Prepping for Collapse
« Reply #288 on: August 04, 2019, 03:50:37 AM »
I don't think they are capable of taking action. They rule but they are not individually in control. They themselves are subject to the constraints of their part of the system.

For instance, Al Gore tried to sound the alarm, and what did it get him besides a stolen election? The rich are rich because they are ruthless. They are not capable (either by nature or by constraints) of considering the overall good, even if they are aware of it, even though they are part of it.

If there is a profit to be made, it will be made. If not by you then by me, and you lose.

They will try to make only sufficient feigns to barely avert violent uprising, for as long as possible. After, they will bunker down and continue to live the good life. Given their immense resources (thousands of times greater than those most people would consider rich), and providing they aren't too stupid to have properly prepared, they certainly can continue to live a very good life (materially), even after society collapses, probably even after a mass ecosystems collapse, at least for their lifetimes and their children's.

Or maybe I've been reading too much Atwood.

Shared Humanity

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Re: Prepping for Collapse
« Reply #289 on: August 04, 2019, 04:27:28 AM »
Sorry about that comment but it is pretty much how I feel.

petm

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Re: Prepping for Collapse
« Reply #290 on: August 04, 2019, 04:35:13 AM »
Jump to minute 1:00 to see Gore's short CSPAN clip.

Also 22:28: Ice shelf melting does not show up in gravity satellite measurements of mass (i.e. GRACE). Makes sense, but I hadn't considered it before.

SH, no need to apologize. I think a lot of us feel that way, myself included.

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Re: Prepping for Collapse
« Reply #291 on: August 04, 2019, 05:08:32 AM »
Quote
The ruling class has clearly known for ~50 years what's coming.

I don't think they do. If they did they wouldn't let it happen. Climate change  will take most from the ones who have the most. Its the end of the world as we know it. Those with power will lose it, those with money will lose it.

I do agree that they think some bad stuff is going to happen to poor countries while they eat popcorn. They probably think a culling is a good idea, the fools. Their confirmation bias blinds them to what is coming.


 I think we ascribe too much intelligence to the ruling class. Similar to other self organizing systems, it takes a few simple rules and not a grand intelligence...

The information has been around for 50+ years. Denial is strong and it takes big events to break through the collective mental barrier....

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Re: Prepping for Collapse
« Reply #292 on: August 04, 2019, 05:12:02 AM »
I don't agree with this either. You're attributing selfless motives to a class of people that (imho) think primarily of themselves. I don't think that, on the whole, the .1% that are in positions of decision-making power will prioritize their descendants' wealth over their power/wealth today. Every single one of those powerful sociopaths expect to be dead before the SHTF.

Quote
The ruling class has clearly known for ~50 years what's coming.

I don't think they do. If they did they wouldn't let it happen. Climate change  will take most from the ones who have the most. Its the end of the world as we know it. Those with power will lose it, those with money will lose it.
...snip

nanning

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Re: Prepping for Collapse
« Reply #293 on: August 04, 2019, 06:03:48 AM »
<snippage>
 I think we ascribe too much intelligence to the ruling class. Similar to other self organizing systems, it takes a few simple rules and not a grand intelligence...
Completely agree. They employ very intelligent people and PR companies that make them look smart.

If the very intelligent people would all strike because they understand their role, technological civilisation would fall apart. They are the most important 'resource' !
No new tech and complex solutions anymore without this minority; the toolmakers and problem solvers.
(now I'm thinking of the B-ark of Douglas Adams' hitchhiker books)

Who's striking with me? Beer on the house. Joints shared around.
"It is preoccupation with possessions, more than anything else, that prevents us from living freely and nobly" - Bertrand Russell
"It is preoccupation with what other people from your groups think of you, that prevents you from living freely and nobly" - Nanning
Why do you keep accumulating stuff?

Shared Humanity

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Re: Prepping for Collapse
« Reply #294 on: August 04, 2019, 04:33:59 PM »
I don't agree with this either. You're attributing selfless motives to a class of people that (imho) think primarily of themselves. I don't think that, on the whole, the .1% that are in positions of decision-making power will prioritize their descendants' wealth over their power/wealth today. Every single one of those powerful sociopaths expect to be dead before the SHTF.

Quote
The ruling class has clearly known for ~50 years what's coming.

I don't think they do. If they did they wouldn't let it happen. Climate change  will take most from the ones who have the most. Its the end of the world as we know it. Those with power will lose it, those with money will lose it.
...snip

There are very few of the wealthiest and most powerful who do not believe in AGW. The science is sound and readily available and they are as well informed as those of us here. I think that many even understand that BAU will be a disaster. Benefiting the most from the system that is driving it, they are calculating that their wealth and power will protect themselves and their children and grandchildren from the effects. This is a dreadful miscalculation.

BAU will deliver us a world that is incompatible with human civilization no later than 2070. When a system begins to collapse, the persons who suffer the most are the same ones that benefit the most from the system functioning well.. Their wealth, particularly their financial wealth, will simply go poof, disappearing into thin air. They will be left with few practical skills to cope with the new world. The small family farmer who raises most of the food he and his family needs and supplies the same to the local community in which he lives will find himself a wealthy man.

At its worst, the wealthy and powerful in wealthy countries will suffer the same fate as  King Louis XVI.
« Last Edit: August 04, 2019, 04:41:57 PM by Shared Humanity »

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Re: Prepping for Collapse
« Reply #295 on: August 06, 2019, 12:28:12 AM »
Has anybody considered that even if everybody survived collapse, within 3 months about ~10% of the US adult population would be dead from lack of insulin. Stockpile now!

Not to mention all the other health conditions that would suddenly go untreated.
I have amazing news for you. Man is not alone on this planet. He is part of a community, upon which he depends absolutely.
- Ishmael

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Re: Prepping for Collapse
« Reply #296 on: August 06, 2019, 01:08:37 AM »
Has anybody considered that even if everybody survived collapse, within 3 months about ~10% of the US adult population would be dead from lack of insulin. Stockpile now!

Not to mention all the other health conditions that would suddenly go untreated.


Why stockpile? Those needing refrigerated medicines aren't going to be with us for long anyway.  :-\
Terry

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Re: Prepping for Collapse
« Reply #297 on: August 06, 2019, 03:43:18 PM »
Has anybody considered that even if everybody survived collapse, within 3 months about ~10% of the US adult population would be dead from lack of insulin. Stockpile now!

Not to mention all the other health conditions that would suddenly go untreated.

Ten percent may be diabetics (mostly older, sedentary, overweight Type 2), but I can't believe 10% of the population are treated with insulin. 

If civilization collapses, obligate fasting will control blood sugars nicely for most.  For most of the others, increased exertion will help control blood sugar levels.  Civilization collapse would likely be curative of the diabetic state for most, within a month or so.  A silver lining.

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Re: Prepping for Collapse
« Reply #298 on: August 06, 2019, 03:53:05 PM »
Has anybody considered that even if everybody survived collapse, within 3 months about ~10% of the US adult population would be dead from lack of insulin. Stockpile now!

Not to mention all the other health conditions that would suddenly go untreated.

Ten percent may be diabetics (mostly older, sedentary, overweight Type 2), but I can't believe 10% of the population are treated with insulin. 

If civilization collapses, obligate fasting will control blood sugars nicely for most.  For most of the others, increased exertion will help control blood sugar levels.  Civilization collapse would likely be curative of the diabetic state for most, within a month or so.  A silver lining.

Death is not a cure, and you are delusional.

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Re: Prepping for Collapse
« Reply #299 on: August 06, 2019, 05:02:39 PM »
<snip>
Death is not a cure, and you are delusional.
Why are you so judgmental? Without arguments.

The cure is to stop participating in the accelerating destruction.

Do you think everyone will die shortly after the collapse?

edit: everyone = those who depend on refrigerated medicines
« Last Edit: August 06, 2019, 06:05:00 PM by nanning »
"It is preoccupation with possessions, more than anything else, that prevents us from living freely and nobly" - Bertrand Russell
"It is preoccupation with what other people from your groups think of you, that prevents you from living freely and nobly" - Nanning
Why do you keep accumulating stuff?