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Author Topic: Prepping for Collapse  (Read 12626 times)

Tor Bejnar

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Re: Prepping for Collapse
« Reply #50 on: July 13, 2019, 04:27:35 PM »
I think, with tomato sauce and a blender, spreadsheets taste like a hot dog.

Tom Lehrer - We Will All Go Together When We Go - with intro ...

Arctic ice is healthy for children and other living things.

gerontocrat

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Re: Prepping for Collapse
« Reply #51 on: July 13, 2019, 05:45:18 PM »
I think, with tomato sauce and a blender, spreadsheets taste like a hot dog.

And - since we are Preparing for Collapse


« Last Edit: July 13, 2019, 05:53:58 PM by gerontocrat »
"Para a Causa do Povo a Luta Continua!"
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TerryM

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Re: Prepping for Collapse
« Reply #52 on: July 13, 2019, 07:39:09 PM »
Doesn't the nutritional value of spreadsheets vary considerably depending on the spread?
Terry

gerontocrat

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Re: Prepping for Collapse
« Reply #53 on: July 13, 2019, 08:20:49 PM »
Doesn't the nutritional value of spreadsheets vary considerably depending on the spread?
Terry
I will make a spreadsheet to evaluate that, including eating the results, so I won't be able to send the report.
"Para a Causa do Povo a Luta Continua!"
"And that's all I'm going to say about that". Forrest Gump
"Damn, I wanted to see what happened next" (Epitaph)

b_lumenkraft

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Re: Prepping for Collapse
« Reply #54 on: July 13, 2019, 08:25:31 PM »
All this spreadsheet talk makes me hungry! [1]

[1] Likely a sentence that has never been formulated ever before in the history of mankind.

Tor Bejnar

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Re: Prepping for Collapse
« Reply #55 on: July 13, 2019, 09:24:12 PM »
...
I will make a spreadsheet to evaluate that, including eating the results, so I won't be able to send the report.
Don't you have a dog for that? (or at least, a neighbor's dog?)
Arctic ice is healthy for children and other living things.

oren

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Re: Prepping for Collapse
« Reply #56 on: July 13, 2019, 11:21:13 PM »
The best book I have read about collapse (perhaps except the one by Jared Diamond) was "When money dies" (pdf link). And the city dwellers did raid the farms.
But now the economy is global, supply chains are long, no country and no city is self-sufficient, and everything depends on high maintenance items - computers, satellites, the power grid, dams, nuclear plants. Agriculture depends on technological support. The population is dense. Even if no nuclear war happens (with India starving/becoming unlivable, will they wait quietly for death?), the chances of survival for a city dweller are nil. No food, too many hungry people. Highest survival chances are for those who are the most isolated, living in some forest or mountain or grassland, in low pop density countries, and growing their own food. Solar panels a plus.
Get away from high density countries, especially those in hot climates. Move somewhere isolated and empty. Patagonia? Canada? Wisconsin? Portugal? (Really I have no clue). Is it worth it to give up your current relatively good life, in order to increase survival odds from 0% to 20% in a world not much worth living in? I doubt it.
Don't expect hospitals, airports etc., when civilization is too complex its unwinding will be terrible. In 1500 or 1900 or even 1942 people were much more self sufficient, much less dependent on technology and imports of necessities. In 2040 or 2050 WTSHTF most people will be useless and hopeless in the face of a sudden collapse. It's not as if they will be told to prepare a decade or two in advance.
BTW Rich - I think you are an optimist of sorts, looking at your assumptions.
« Last Edit: July 13, 2019, 11:38:25 PM by oren »

Rich

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Re: Prepping for Collapse
« Reply #57 on: July 13, 2019, 11:50:57 PM »
As usual, good post Oren.

My friends and family don't consider me an optimist at all. I'm persona non grata for bringing this shit up.

But I figure an extended family of 50 people with a combined net worth of ~ $1M per person should be able to set aside 3-5% to give the kids and grandkids a chance even if it's less than 50/50.

I'm thinking some place like Saskatchewan. There are some inexpensive foods (like dried beans and rice) that will store for a century if properly stored. That region has petrol and aircraft maintenance and modern accoutrements far from the hungry hordes.

Patagonia would have a good climate, but the scale of suitable climate in the Southern Hemisphere would be much smaller and allow for something much more primitive than the N. Hemisphere.

We're programmed to try and survive. I'm just acting on that programming.

GoSouthYoungins

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Re: Prepping for Collapse
« Reply #58 on: July 14, 2019, 01:12:16 AM »
By the way, the first flights of the huge rocket are nearing for the creation of a Martian colony.

Oh ya, the rocket that blew over in a 40mph wind. I'm sure that thing will take us to Mars. The tortoise beats the hare after-all. 39mph all the way to Mars baby!!!
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GoSouthYoungins

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Re: Prepping for Collapse
« Reply #59 on: July 14, 2019, 01:15:10 AM »
Patagonia would have a good climate, but the scale of suitable climate in the Southern Hemisphere would be much smaller and allow for something much more primitive than the N. Hemisphere.

Be honest with yourself. You don't want to try Patagonia cuz it is far away and different. The entire North Hemi ecology will upended. Most of it will burn. Enjoy the dried beans.
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GoSouthYoungins

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Re: Prepping for Collapse
« Reply #60 on: July 14, 2019, 01:29:17 AM »
Chernobyl melted down and 20 km away, things never become uninhabitable. Japan got nuked twice and had a recent meltdown and the island densely populated. The world is large, so even 400 meltdowns down destroy all life.

Chernobyl killed ~100k people.

Times 400 that's 40 million deaths.

But the death toll in Chernobyl was so 'low' because they managed to seal it.

And there your theory goes bust. When you have nukes all over the world constantly leaking, it's rather sooner than later before the last one dies painfully.

Japan is less than 1/1000th on the world's landmass. They have had an ongoing meltdown for the past 8 years. 125 million people live in Japan. There is ONE death attributed to the radiation from the meltdown.

Wiki says:
In total nuclear test megatonnage, from 1945 to 1992, 520 atmospheric nuclear explosions (including eight underwater) have been conducted with a total yield of 545 megatons,[14] with a peak occurring in 1961–1962, when 340 megatons were detonated in the atmosphere by the United States and Soviet Union. while the estimated number of underground nuclear tests conducted in the period from 1957 to 1992 is 1,352 explosions with a total yield of 90 Mt.

That is a lot of radiation, and yet life goes on. Your brain may be fried, but the earth is still habitable. I'm not saying that hundreds of meltdowns wouldn't cause serious problems, but the idea that it is a nail in the coffin on humanity is silly.
big time oops

Rich

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Re: Prepping for Collapse
« Reply #61 on: July 14, 2019, 02:12:04 AM »
Patagonia would have a good climate, but the scale of suitable climate in the Southern Hemisphere would be much smaller and allow for something much more primitive than the N. Hemisphere.

Be honest with yourself. You don't want to try Patagonia cuz it is far away and different. The entire North Hemi ecology will upended. Most of it will burn. Enjoy the dried beans.

Nope. I'd rather be in a region big enough to support a few hundred million people than 1-2 million people.

Better chance of survival and rebuilding a non-primitive existence.

Lotta amateur mind readers here on ASIF. There should be a training course or something on how to do that with accuracy.


Rod

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Re: Prepping for Collapse
« Reply #62 on: July 14, 2019, 02:23:36 AM »
Rich, I have stuck up for you several times this season.  Even when you pissed off A-Team with your ridiculous theories. 

I thought you were actually concerned about Sea ice and learning,  even when you attacked Gerontocrat and others for their contributions. 

Now I’m starting to think you are just here to concern Troll. 

There are plenty of places on Reddit and Facebook to do that. 

You have been way more disruptive than Hyperion ever was.  Please take your BS elsewhere.

Rich

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Re: Prepping for Collapse
« Reply #63 on: July 14, 2019, 03:59:57 AM »
Rod,

Stop with the amateur mind reading.

I never, ever interacted with A-Team. I had a genuine ignorance of some of the properties of water and Binntho ultimately set me straight. I apologized to the entire forum for using the melting season thread for an ugly learning process that I should have taken to the Stupid Questions thread much earlier.

I'm not responsible for A-Team's personality.

I have consistently in the short-time I've been here expressed my gratitude for the data that Gerontocrat shares. I wasn't happy with the contempt he expressed for people on the melting season thread and suggested he take his criticism to then directly. It seemed like a fair request and there is no lingering bad feeling on my part.

I'm a thinking person. I challenge and question assumptions in order to try and iterate to a better understanding. That might be annoying to people who are motivated to conform.

My motivation in coming to ASIF is to try and understand how AGW and other environmental degradation might change the world much quicker than people are imagining. We're headed for catastrophe (IMO) and it's clear that the world isn't reacting in a timely manner. I'm looking for something more concrete to show that things are coming to a head sooner. But I have to actually believe it and understand it to be true in order to sell it to others.

Arctic sea ice loss and a BOE seems like a potential candidate for contributing to a near-term collapse. So I'm exploring.

It's fascinating stuff. A great forum here. But I'm a challenger of assumptions and conventional thinking.

Right now, I'm challenging the assumption that a BOE is relatively imminent (next 10-15 years) on the grounds that the CAB is a much different layer to bust through than the Arctic Ocean at large. I'm asking questions about the relationship between ocean depth and propagation of heat that I don't see other people asking or explaining.

My opinion about this year's outlook is very similar to Friv's and reflects a perspective that the CAB is a tough nut to crack.

I'm not a mind reader and I make it a habit not to project what other people are thinking. If I have a concern, I tend to ask the other person what they mean.

That said, maybe some people think a newbie should just shut up and listen and not participate until after the world is condemned to a shitty outcome? We can agree to disagree about that.

I don't aspire to be popular and liked by anyone but I'm not doing anything with the intention of pissing anyone else off either. I'm not a troll. An asshole? OK. But not a troll. I'm genuine and transparent (which may be worse depending on your perspective).

Thanks for pointing out that I screwed up the quotation marks in that recent comment. I fixed it asap.

GoSouthYoungins

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Re: Prepping for Collapse
« Reply #64 on: July 14, 2019, 04:08:39 AM »
Rich, I'll try to avoid insults, but it will be difficult. You couldn't be more wrong about your plan. Where to begin?

-The idea that a few hundred million people are required to live a non-primitive life is ridiculous.

-The idea that a few hundred million people are going to move to Saskatchewan in the next decade or two and set up a non-primitive life is absurd.

-Saskatchewan is probably the 2nd worst region in the world (behind central asia) in terms of the amount of climate change likely to occur in the coming decades. (And it is literally the opposite of Patagonia in almost every aspect.)

-(Although totally irrelevant,) the amount of land needed to support a few hundred million people is not large. Patagonia is 7 times larger than Bangladesh, population 170 million. Patagonia is also larger than Saskatchewan. Granted most of Patagonia won't be habitable, but NONE of Saskatchewan will be.

If you are too uppity to live a primitive life, you are pathetic and deserve what you will most certainly get, which is death. You seem a decent fellow, but try to keep an open mind that you may (again) be very wrong about something, before you start throwing ideas around as facts. Cheers.
big time oops

Rod

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Re: Prepping for Collapse
« Reply #65 on: July 14, 2019, 04:11:27 AM »
Rod,

Stop with the amateur mind reading.

....

That said, maybe some people think a newbie should just shut up and listen and not participate until after the world is condemned to a shitty outcome? We can agree to disagree about that.

I don't aspire to be popular and liked by anyone but I'm not doing anything with the intention of pissing anyone else off either. I'm not a troll. An asshole? OK. But not a troll. I'm genuine and transparent (which may be worse depending on your perspective).

Thanks for pointing out that I screwed up the quotation marks in that recent comment. I fixed it asap.

This is bull shit.  We have all supported your right to post your theories even as a newbie.   I went to war for you with A-team when he tried to shut you up. 

I’m getting discouraged by the way you continuously say things that are on the fringe, and then pretend to be insulted when people point out your mistakes. 

It has become very disruptive.

Rich

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Re: Prepping for Collapse
« Reply #66 on: July 14, 2019, 04:40:19 AM »

This is bull shit.  We have all supported your right to post your theories even as a newbie.   I went to war for you with A-team when he tried to shut you up. 

I’m getting discouraged by the way you continuously say things that are on the fringe

What have I written recently that it "on the fringe". Don't be oblique....spit it out.

Rich

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Re: Prepping for Collapse
« Reply #67 on: July 14, 2019, 04:49:54 AM »
Rich, I'll try to avoid insults, but it will be difficult. You couldn't be more wrong about your plan. Where to begin?

-The idea that a few hundred million people are required to live a non-primitive life is ridiculous.

-The idea that a few hundred million people are going to move to Saskatchewan in the next decade or two and set up a non-primitive life is absurd.

-Saskatchewan is probably the 2nd worst region in the world (behind central asia) in terms of the amount of climate change likely to occur in the coming decades. (And it is literally the opposite of Patagonia in almost every aspect.)

-(Although totally irrelevant,) the amount of land needed to support a few hundred million people is not large. Patagonia is 7 times larger than Bangladesh, population 170 million. Patagonia is also larger than Saskatchewan. Granted most of Patagonia won't be habitable, but NONE of Saskatchewan will be.

If you are too uppity to live a primitive life, you are pathetic and deserve what you will most certainly get, which is death. You seem a decent fellow, but try to keep an open mind that you may (again) be very wrong about something, before you start throwing ideas around as facts. Cheers

LOL.

I don't think Saskatchewan could support hundreds of millions of people. That would be the entire NH potential.

N. Europe, Russia, China, Scandinavia, parts of US, etc. would combine to make up the potential population.

Saskatchewan is good for it's remoteness, oil supplies and infrastructure.

I'm just thinking out loud here....not presenting anything as fact.

wili

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Re: Prepping for Collapse
« Reply #68 on: July 14, 2019, 05:40:06 AM »
Just a note: The north half of Saskatchewan is dominated by the Canadian Shield, not an area noted for deep top soil generally.
"A force de chercher de bonnes raisons, on en trouve; on les dit; et après on y tient, non pas tant parce qu'elles sont bonnes que pour ne pas se démentir." Choderlos de Laclos "You struggle to come up with some valid reasons, then cling to them, not because they're good, but just to not back down."

Rich

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Re: Prepping for Collapse
« Reply #69 on: July 14, 2019, 06:00:20 AM »
Just a note: The north half of Saskatchewan is dominated by the Canadian Shield, not an area noted for deep top soil generally.

I guess there's vertical farming. They also have caribou and deer there.

One might only have to find a place to survive a few decades while the Great Thinning takes place. A place with great topsoil might attract too many people.

Again, I'm winging it here. Where would you go?

wili

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Re: Prepping for Collapse
« Reply #70 on: July 14, 2019, 06:18:05 AM »
What happens to me is not very important. As they advised those in New Orleans recently, "Shelter in place."

Spending a lot of fuel moving everyone around is just going to exacerbate things further. But then, I've had a good full life, so I can't judge others' desires to extend theirs.

As Neven pointed out, people are anxious about their own survival mostly out of fear of death. But death is one thing, in this uncertain world, that we can all be 100% certain of.
"A force de chercher de bonnes raisons, on en trouve; on les dit; et après on y tient, non pas tant parce qu'elles sont bonnes que pour ne pas se démentir." Choderlos de Laclos "You struggle to come up with some valid reasons, then cling to them, not because they're good, but just to not back down."

GoSouthYoungins

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Re: Prepping for Collapse
« Reply #71 on: July 14, 2019, 08:06:29 AM »
Saskatchewan is good for it's remoteness

But you want to live with a couple hundred million people to avoid primitiveness. This is just an idea...but you are a moron.
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nanning

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Re: Prepping for Collapse
« Reply #72 on: July 14, 2019, 08:24:45 AM »
From en.wiktionary:
Quote
Noun

moron (plural morons)

    (informal, derogatory) A stupid person; an idiot; a fool.
    (dated, originally) A person of borderline intelligence in the former classification of mental retardation, having an intelligence quotient of 50-69.
I doubt anyone on this forum falls in that IQ category.

Please try to keep it civilised. It was not personal, and even then ;)
It takes effort to separate emotion from rational argument.
"It is preoccupation with possessions, more than anything else, that prevents us from living freely and nobly"

GoSouthYoungins

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Re: Prepping for Collapse
« Reply #73 on: July 14, 2019, 08:28:02 AM »
I guess there's vertical farming.

I genuinely think you haven't thought any of this through AT ALL. If 100 million people lived in Patagonia, each family of 4 could have 10 acres. Not exactly the situation for vertical farming.

I know, that that is not what you were arguing for but your overall message seems way off base.


Where would you go?

PATAGONIA!!!
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GoSouthYoungins

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Re: Prepping for Collapse
« Reply #74 on: July 14, 2019, 08:29:27 AM »
From en.wiktionary:
Quote
Noun

moron (plural morons)

    (informal, derogatory) A stupid person; an idiot; a fool.
    (dated, originally) A person of borderline intelligence in the former classification of mental retardation, having an intelligence quotient of 50-69.
I doubt anyone on this forum falls in that IQ category.

Please try to keep it civilised. It was not personal, and even then ;)
It takes effort to separate emotion from rational argument.

I do! Just add 100
big time oops

Paddy

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Re: Prepping for Collapse
« Reply #75 on: July 14, 2019, 09:55:43 AM »
This thread went south fast.

I think, personally, the cost:reward of crisis prepping is on quite a steep bit of the curve when you start talking about packing everything up and moving to patagonia / new zealand / Saskatchewan / a remote island somewhere.

Prepping for temporary shortages is as far as I'm willing to go, personally. But in a way, I'm glad that some people do go a lot further.  A slightly higher chunk of the human race will go on as and when TSHTF courtesy of all the doomsday prepping, no doubt.  I'm unlikely to be one of them, but I'm actually ok with that.

gerontocrat

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Re: Prepping for Collapse
« Reply #76 on: July 14, 2019, 11:45:11 AM »
This thread went south fast.

About the only sensible remark for some time on this thread.

If anyone is looking for practical advice on prepping for collapse, look elsewhere.

"Para a Causa do Povo a Luta Continua!"
"And that's all I'm going to say about that". Forrest Gump
"Damn, I wanted to see what happened next" (Epitaph)

Archimid

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Re: Prepping for Collapse
« Reply #77 on: July 14, 2019, 11:52:21 AM »

What do you do when 'Gerontocrat' comes by with his merry men?


See point 5. Your neighbors will take your stuff or help you protect it from the gerontoarmy. Who wins is up to the moment, but if you are in a defensive position, you have the advantage.

Quote
I'd say most people cannot afford to do those things you propose. What will they do?

Natural selection happens.
I am an energy reservoir seemingly intent on lowering entropy for self preservation.

nanning

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Re: Prepping for Collapse
« Reply #78 on: July 14, 2019, 05:46:49 PM »
<snippage>
Natural selection happens.

You call that natural selection? Wow.
"It is preoccupation with possessions, more than anything else, that prevents us from living freely and nobly"

Archimid

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Re: Prepping for Collapse
« Reply #79 on: July 14, 2019, 05:55:06 PM »
Quote
You call that natural selection? Wow.

It is literally natural selection. Like, textbook natural selection. Groups of animals fighting each other for resources, who ever lives gets to see another day.

That has always been the natural order, but food abundance made us forget about that behavior.
I am an energy reservoir seemingly intent on lowering entropy for self preservation.

Bruce Steele

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Re: Prepping for Collapse
« Reply #80 on: July 14, 2019, 06:45:51 PM »
I haven't ever seen a technological solution to our emissions frenzy. There just aren't working examples of modern humans living at emission rates that can turn around atmospheric  CO2 trends . I arbitrarily assign < 2 tons CO2 as each humans  fair share. Even at that rate we would still collectively emit over 15 GT CO2 and Mauna Loa GHG levels would continue to rise.
 So currently the only humans living a < 2 ton lifestyle are primitives.
 Natural selection will be income independent  on a planet wide scale. Encouraging primitive lifestyles would help survival chances of the largest number of humans but there is just no way for this planet to support 7-8 billion humans.  Carrying capacity is the number ( of any living thing ) an ecosystem can support.  I am killing our life support system, earth,  right along with the rest of you. Nature will deal with us . Root for nature, don't cry for us.

ArcticMelt2

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Re: Prepping for Collapse
« Reply #81 on: July 14, 2019, 06:54:52 PM »
I haven't ever seen a technological solution to our emissions frenzy. There just aren't working examples of modern humans living at emission rates that can turn around atmospheric  CO2 trends . I arbitrarily assign < 2 tons CO2 as each humans  fair share. Even at that rate we would still collectively emit over 15 GT CO2 and Mauna Loa GHG levels would continue to rise.
 So currently the only humans living a < 2 ton lifestyle are primitives.
 Natural selection will be income independent  on a planet wide scale. Encouraging primitive lifestyles would help survival chances of the largest number of humans but there is just no way for this planet to support 7-8 billion humans.  Carrying capacity is the number ( of any living thing ) an ecosystem can support.  I am killing our life support system, earth,  right along with the rest of you. Nature will deal with us . Root for nature, don't cry for us.

Therefore, we must build faster shelters for several thousand - millions of the elect, who will be able to raise the earthly civilization after the collapse.

Better to do it now, then it will be late. Elon Musk is a genius who strives to create reserve colonies.

ArcticMelt2

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Re: Prepping for Collapse
« Reply #82 on: July 14, 2019, 07:01:22 PM »


Such a refuge is very easily taken by robbers with a small amount of explosives.

Better this way:

https://theculturetrip.com/wp-content/uploads/2017/04/living_on_mars-01.jpg

Or:


gerontocrat

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Re: Prepping for Collapse
« Reply #83 on: July 14, 2019, 08:23:09 PM »
So a significant number of people think that Elon Musk is going to colonise Mars to save the human race.
FOOLS!

He has a fiendish and well thought-out plan. Every time someone buys a Tesla 3 they are helping to finance their assured destruction. Musk has seen the Bond movie. He knows that colonising Mars won't work. But sending a few thousand people up there with enough stuff for a few years is all that is needed and eminently doable.
______________________________________________________________
Last reel of the last Hollywood Blockbuster - " Mars One ".

Launch pad at Musk City
The last Space X heavy-lifter is on the launching pad.
The last cases of Krug Champagne are being loaded.
The starving hordes are storming the facility, mown down by the robot gatling guns on the ground and on the drones circling the launch pad.

Musk, turns, an ironic wave to the dying mob, and is whisked up to the entrance hatch.
The door shuts, the engines start, and away she goes.

Inside the control room of the heavy-lifter.
"Now?" asks Musk's ever faithful side-kick.
"Not yet" replies Musk, "Wait 'til zero-g. I want to see the payload on its way".

Zero-g. 
The hiss of escaping air as the entire side of the space vehicle opens.
In the time of one earth orbit, a large number of spherical objects leave the heavy-lifter and then under their own power head in different directions earthwards.

"I got the idea when we were sending up the internet constellation", murmurs Musk, sucking a drop of Krug. "Genetically modified virus, human specific for 100% mortality. Tested thoroughly  to ensure it self-destructs within one year. But we will stay on Mars for two. Damn cheap way to get a whole damn planet".

Fade-out with quiet laughter.
"Para a Causa do Povo a Luta Continua!"
"And that's all I'm going to say about that". Forrest Gump
"Damn, I wanted to see what happened next" (Epitaph)

Alexander555

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Re: Prepping for Collapse
« Reply #84 on: July 14, 2019, 09:43:15 PM »
Prepping is importand anyway. It gives you the time to reorganize without killing each other. But i wonder how these city boys are going to do that.

GoSouthYoungins

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Re: Prepping for Collapse
« Reply #85 on: July 14, 2019, 10:34:45 PM »
Prepping is importand anyway. It gives you the time to reorganize without killing each other. But i wonder how these city boys are going to do that.

They aren't. They are going to kill each other for medicine, water, food, and eventually their bodies meat. It will be pretty epic. Some of it will be filmed and be able to be watch eventually when things stabilize. Should be pretty epic footage. Something to look forward to.
big time oops

kassy

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Re: Prepping for Collapse
« Reply #86 on: July 14, 2019, 10:38:29 PM »
A realistic look at prepping and it´s bounds would have been interesting. Guess this is not it and if the question is where to relocate we also have a thread for that.
Þetta minnismerki er til vitnis um að við vitum hvað er að gerast og hvað þarf að gera. Aðeins þú veist hvort við gerðum eitthvað.

GoSouthYoungins

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Re: Prepping for Collapse
« Reply #87 on: July 14, 2019, 11:07:21 PM »
A realistic look at prepping and it´s bounds would have been interesting.

Well let's make it that. I'll start.

Water is the hardest part. (Some places access isn't a problem, but only purification.) Well pumps last about a decade usually. So modern wells are basically worthless. Tanks of water last a couple decades. Perennial rivers and lakes are probably the only realistic answer. And purification is not actually realistic long term. The brutal truth is that what makes the most sense would be to start drinking dirty water now and allowing the body to adapt. Modern medicine could step in to prevent death if things go really bad, but in general the immune system should be allowed to adapt the best it can on its own.
big time oops

kassy

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Re: Prepping for Collapse
« Reply #88 on: July 14, 2019, 11:37:26 PM »
Uhm...not what i had in mind.

If you don´t have a clear stream or other reliable source you should boil it because there are certain amoeba ,bacteria and hookworms whom you don´t want messing with you. Your immune system does not adapt to those per se since there are so many types.

And would you have your 2/3 year old do that? Hope not. It is just not an option.

The immune system makes antibodies but it is for specific things that is why we can have partial immunity for certain flu strains but no protection for some of the common cold bacteria.

You cannot train your immune system the way you propose.   


 

Þetta minnismerki er til vitnis um að við vitum hvað er að gerast og hvað þarf að gera. Aðeins þú veist hvort við gerðum eitthvað.

petm

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Re: Prepping for Collapse
« Reply #89 on: July 15, 2019, 12:25:24 AM »
That's not correct. The immune system is extremely complex and does have subsystems that variously target viruses, bacteria, worms, etc. Many of these are just starting to be understood. See e.g. https://www.newswise.com/articles/researchers-learn-how-the-immune-system-fights-parasitic-worms .

But I agree that purposefully feeding parasites to children is a very bad idea.

gerontocrat

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Re: Prepping for Collapse
« Reply #90 on: July 15, 2019, 12:33:14 AM »
That's not correct. The immune system is extremely complex and does have subsystems that variously target viruses, bacteria, worms, etc. Many of these are just starting to be understood. See e.g. https://www.newswise.com/articles/researchers-learn-how-the-immune-system-fights-parasitic-worms .

But I agree that purposefully feeding parasites to children is a very bad idea.
WaterAid reckon 800 children die every day from dirty water
"Para a Causa do Povo a Luta Continua!"
"And that's all I'm going to say about that". Forrest Gump
"Damn, I wanted to see what happened next" (Epitaph)

nanning

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Re: Prepping for Collapse
« Reply #91 on: July 15, 2019, 05:50:54 AM »
Beer is nice and safe for drinking :)

<snippage>
 So currently the only humans living a < 2 ton lifestyle are primitives.

I am in that category.
Always knew I was antiderivative.

Never knew that natural selection functions in a capitalistic extremely unequal system as if it were living nature. You really must want to belieeeve you are a 'winner'. This rich and powerful Mr. Trump really is a 'winner', isn't he. The 'best fit'.

edit: added "living"
« Last Edit: July 16, 2019, 04:17:29 AM by nanning »
"It is preoccupation with possessions, more than anything else, that prevents us from living freely and nobly"

El Cid

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Re: Prepping for Collapse
« Reply #92 on: July 15, 2019, 09:05:19 AM »
If this prepping thread were real (and not just for daydreaming and amusement) then you would be talking about the best ways to grow food low-tech, the best edible mushrooms, how to bake bread from acorn (like Bruce Steele), the best ways to get clean water, hunting with bows, discussing whether goats or sheep make more sense around a farm, the most resistant fruit-trees that can be grown without spraying, mudbrick-techniques, etc. I think if the proverbial SHTF most of you won't last a week. Sorry. Time to get real. 

Aporia_filia

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Re: Prepping for Collapse
« Reply #93 on: July 15, 2019, 11:07:35 AM »
Very glad to know about you Nanning. As an answer to El Cid (=Matamoros, hope your not one of them)
I only have water from a spring, I have an useless arrow because I have hens, although only eat their eggs. I'm becoming an expert eating wild mushrooms (till i dye). Fresh and dry wild fruits, snails, ants, are good nourishment...
PV plaques are my only energy supply. No ICE generator. No roads...
Bruce, Nanning, Sidd, and others would understand that at the end of the day this way of living, trying to fuse into your environment is hard but very rewarding. Like running a marathon. Is natural and fulfill your spirit in a way that no modern commodity would. So, we're not part of the problem, and at the same time life is marvellous around us.
Is not a mater of winning or loosing (as Nanning ironically points), is a mater of getting rid of a lot of cultural crap and finding your true nature.
(Sorry for my dreadful English)

gerontocrat

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Re: Prepping for Collapse
« Reply #94 on: July 15, 2019, 01:25:19 PM »
Never knew that natural selection functions in a capitalistic extremely unequal system as if it were nature. You really must want to belieeeve you are a 'winner'. This rich and powerful Mr. Trump really is a 'winner', isn't he. The 'best fit'.
Capitalism swipes ideas for its own purposes, including vile behaviour to their fellow humans.

Victorian capitalism took Natural selection and from it made Social Darwinism to justify screwing the workforce into the ground.  Enlightened self-interest died.

Now we have a school of economics brought to a grateful capitalist world by by Austrian economist Joseph Schumpeter in 1942 - "Creative Destruction". No connection with Nazism, of course. Creative destruction can be described as the dismantling of long-standing practices in order to make way for innovation. The term creative destruction was coined by Austrian economist Joseph Schumpeter in 1942.

It may underpin part of the "philosophy" of  Ayn Rand - author of "Atlas Shrugged". Selfishness is not just good, it is necessary for the development of mankind. Alan Greenspan was a devotee, an acolyte, of Ayn Rand.

The progress of man depends on the individual acting purely in his own interests. The destruction of the existing order is a necessary part of this. Those crushed by it are a necessary sacrifice. These ideas are mainstream in the corporate world, including silicon valley. Maybe even Elon Musk is a follower.

"Para a Causa do Povo a Luta Continua!"
"And that's all I'm going to say about that". Forrest Gump
"Damn, I wanted to see what happened next" (Epitaph)

El Cid

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Re: Prepping for Collapse
« Reply #95 on: July 15, 2019, 02:06:11 PM »
gerontocrat's post is a perfect example of what I have written about: there is theoretizing and philosophizing instead of actual "prepping"; which is OK,  but then let's not fool yourselves about this whole prepping - whatever it means.

Which one of you knows how to scythe? Light a fire with a stone and steel? Make traps for rabbits? How to graft a tree? Make mud-bricks? Knows what to plant on which day? How to store food? I could go on and on

Rich

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Re: Prepping for Collapse
« Reply #96 on: July 15, 2019, 02:45:12 PM »
[quote author=El Cid link=topic=2799.msg213594#msg213594 date=156319237

Which one of you knows how to scythe? Light a fire with a stone and steel? Make traps for rabbits? How to graft a tree? Make mud-bricks? Knows what to plant on which day? How to store food? I could go on and on
[/quote]

Food storage sounds like a great topic. I'd love to learn more about that.

Food types, shelf life, container types, how many cubic feet per person per month of storage, managing temperature / humidity, canning, curing, etc.

gerontocrat

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Re: Prepping for Collapse
« Reply #97 on: July 15, 2019, 03:08:48 PM »
gerontocrat's post is a perfect example of what I have written about: there is theoretizing and philosophizing instead of actual "prepping"; which is OK,  but then let's not fool yourselves about this whole prepping - whatever it means.

Which one of you knows how to scythe? Light a fire with a stone and steel? Make traps for rabbits? How to graft a tree? Make mud-bricks? Knows what to plant on which day? How to store food? I could go on and on
Done quite a bit of that stuff when I was (a lot) younger.

But now, at my age all that physical stuff ain't my scene. But all societies, especially so-called "primitive" societies (which are actually very complex) need their priests - wise men. So I am prepping for that.

When will I grow my long beard?
When will I put on my "Moses" cloak?
When will I start practicing the wise look?

So you got it wrong. Get thee to the fields and spread this year's dung**.
______________________________________________________________________
To all Readers:- Don't think we will throw your crap away. It is a valuable resource, as is your piss.
"Para a Causa do Povo a Luta Continua!"
"And that's all I'm going to say about that". Forrest Gump
"Damn, I wanted to see what happened next" (Epitaph)

El Cid

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Re: Prepping for Collapse
« Reply #98 on: July 15, 2019, 05:17:40 PM »
"To all Readers:- Don't think we will throw your crap away. It is a valuable resource, as is your piss"

:)

But this reminds me of one thing : piss is truly a very important resource. Did you know that 50% of N and 60-80% of P and K that leaves your body is in your piss, which by the way is - unless you are sick - quite sterile and can be used to fertilize your fields (diliuted with water minimum 1:5) ? On the other hand, your shit contains a smaller part of valuable things and is a hotbed for all sorts of problems.

One adult's daily piss is enough to fertilize about 1m2. Researchers grew plants with artificial fertilization and piss, and piss was almost as good as the factory stuff.

So when the piss hits the fan you know what you will have to do: use your piss for fertilization and get rid of your shit with at least two years' of composting to kill anything dangerous in it.

Hope this helps :)

nanning

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Re: Prepping for Collapse
« Reply #99 on: July 15, 2019, 06:01:29 PM »
<snippage>
Quote
I'd say most people cannot afford to do those things you propose. What will they do?

Natural selection happens.

Re: Natural selection and the blindness for ones own priviledge, supremacy, being in richest 10%, lack of empathy.
The majority of people in the world are poor and have no chance in hell in this system to get to your level of ownership, affluence and security. Rich people (you) appease their conscience (e.g. why have I so much and they almost nothing) by telling yourself that it is on merit, you are a 'winner'; successful. And then say it is natural with a straight face.
I am poor by choice to have a high morality, happiness and a better view.


@Aporia_filia
Nice to read, thanks.

@gerontocrat
<snippage>
Selfishness is not just good, it is necessary for the development of mankind.
..
The progress of man depends on the individual acting purely in his own interests.
..

I strongly disagree. It is the path to destruction.
We are social animals. We should function as a team, as an intimate open group. With high morality.

BOTTOM NOTE: DON'T FORGET THE MAJORITY; THE POOR. PLEASE.
"It is preoccupation with possessions, more than anything else, that prevents us from living freely and nobly"