Prepping for Collapse

[Villabolo]

The leader would be the equivalent of Moses. That's definitely not me.

[/li]
[li]
Of course, that's what Moses said:

• Excuse 1: I’m not good enough - “Who am I that I should go to Pharaoh, and that I should bring the children of Israel out of Egypt?” -Exodus 3:11
• Excuse 2: I don’t have all the answers -“Then Moses said to God, “Indeed, when I come to the children of Israel and say to them, ‘The God of your fathers has sent me to you,’ and they say to me, ‘What is His name?’ what shall I say to them?” -Exodus 3:13
• Excuse 3: People won’t believe me - “Then Moses answered and said, “But suppose they will not believe me or listen to my voice; suppose they say, ‘The LORD has not appeared to you.’ ” -Exodus 4:1
• Excuse 4: I’m a terrible public speaker - “Then Moses said to the LORD, “O my Lord, I am not eloquent, neither before nor since You have spoken to Your servant; but I am slow of speech and slow of tongue.” -Exodus 4:10
• Excuse 5: I’m not qualified - “But he said, “O my Lord, please send by the hand of whomever else You may send.” -Exodus 4:13  -  Moses’ final excuse is desperate. “Please, anyone but me!”

reference

Thank you for the compliment Tor.

[Villabolo]

This might be somewhat off topic but it touches on the subject.

I believe in an alternative civilization.

No cities, no suburbs. In their place a million villages. Self reliant eco-villages of 300-500 persons. Permaculture for their food supply. Stockpiles of food for 10 years - not so much for a social breakdown but necessary for ecological disruption and its consequences for agriculture.

Also, electrical power from windmills and/or solar.

Prepping for social collapse would require that these villages have the tools necessary to live throughout the generations without any input from society at large.

I envision an alliance of these villages both to create an alternative civilization and for the sake of self defense.
 

Seems you're basically describing the Amish.  Why re-invent the wheel?

I am not a primitivist. Besides, I don't think the Amish are into windmills or solar power.

[Rich]

One sometimes wonders if Governments are dusting these old plans off, updating them, and checking out the old bunkers that still exist with a view to repair and upgrade.

I seriously doubt that any "dusting off old plans" is needed. The Pentagon and Secret Service (and their foreign equivalents) have to permanently ready and prepared for this type of discontinuity.

[El Cid]

eco-villages:

Nice. Who's going to produce all the solar panels and who's going to kepp science alive? Back to square one, you need cities, they are there for a reason.

[Burnrate]

I think most of the way people think about prepping is generally outdated and not applicable to the current situation.  The world's population has almost doubled in the last 30 years.  That means less places, or no places, will be safe from scavenging, raiding, or other conflict.

We also aren't just looking at a loss of government but a loss of ecosystem.  One the BOE hits and that causes the clathrate gun to go off along with all the permafrost melt we can say hello to the Canfield Oceans and aerosol loss making a super hot, low oxygen world that isn't survivable.

The real question here is how do we get a ticket to live inside one of the domed cities?  Countries like the US will have enough time and resources to protect certain areas, supply them with oxygen and other resources.  It won't be for most people though.

Even if you get in to one of these places, do you really want to be on the back of the train?

Is there any way we could survive without a larger group?  A small dome inflated over an acre of land with solar panels and hydroponics?  You won't have to worry about roving bands of thieves with things being the way they are.

[Villabolo]

eco-villages:

Nice. Who's going to produce all the solar panels and who's going to kepp science alive? Back to square one, you need cities, they are there for a reason.

As I said previously, I am not a primitivist. With my society you can have all the infrastructure that our current civilization has. A hundred villages can get together and start a business making windmills. A hundred others can make solar panels, etc. It will simply be a decentralized society.

[nanning]

You will not be just prepping for a bad period.

This isn't like a survivaltrip where you return from and be back in comfort.

It'll never ever get better, only accelleratingly worse. Never stability and security again. Fear. Lower and lower standards of living.  There's no light at the end of the tunnel, the tunnel doesn't end. Please think it through.

My heart goes out to all children (non-grownups), beautiful humans and all other life on Earth.

[nanning]

<snippage>
A hundred others can make solar panels, etc. It will simply be a decentralized society.

Who'll provide for the resources, the materials. The children mining them in Congo etc. won't work for you anymore. Try to get an idea where all the parts and materials come from in a modern product. You need all those industries as well. Those industries depend on another range of parts and materials etc etc.

[Rich]

<snippage>
A hundred others can make solar panels, etc. It will simply be a decentralized society.

Who'll provide for the resources, the materials. The children mining them in Congo etc. won't work for you anymore. Try to get an idea where all the parts and materials come from in a modern product. You need all those industries as well. Those industries depend on another range of parts and materials etc etc.

You have to buy the solar panels and related infrastructure before the collapse hits and have it ready to go. That's the point of prepping.

As you say, when collapse comes, the supply chain that results in easy access to solar panels probably disappears.

It would be interesting to consider what kind of barter market emerges from the salvage of failed cities.

[be cause]

how inviting death looks as an option ... b.c.

[El Cid]

Great, now that you have your batteries, how are you going to use them?

As you probably know, solar panels attached to the grid will not work when (in your MadMax world) the grid goes off. So, you need to deattach them. Also, you will need batteries for the panels to be of any use. Unfortunately current batteries can store very little electricity. A big Tesla Powerwall2 (5900 usd) can store 13,5 kwh. A typical American household uses 20 kwh PER DAY. If you want to use your panels for heating in the middle of winter you are going to freeze to death, it won't last a day. And unfortunately in most NH midlatitude countries the sun shines very little during winter. So the panels can be used for lighting and that's it. As for heating you'd better load up on wood. Look up coppicing, you'll need it.

[Archimid]

As you probably know, solar panels attached to the grid will not work when (in your MadMax world) the grid goes off. So, you need to deattach them. Also, you will need batteries for the panels to be of any use. Unfortunately current batteries can store very little electricity. A big Tesla Powerwall2 (5900 usd) can store 13,5 kwh.

13.5 kwh will run your refrigerator, your lights, some fans during summer, some heating during winter, communication equipment and you still have some energy to spare for your EV or to cook small meals. It will recharge every day the sun comes out.

13.5kwh is more than most people in the world will ever need to survive.

Going back to the bear analogy, in a collapse situation a properly defended home equipped with solar panels and batteries will give you an edge over everyone without back up generation or anyone  dependent on fuel for generators.

If you want to use your panels for heating in the middle of winter you are going to freeze to death, it won't last a day.

If you try to warm a whole house while hanging around in your underwear, sure. But if you use the energy for a small room and you use propper clothing and blankets, solar panels and batteries can make the difference between life and death.

Do you not see that or are you preventing people from protecting themselves??

As for heating you'd better load up on wood. Look up coppicing, you'll need it.

Wouldn't it be better if he had both? Also, why are you counting on wood don't you think everyone will be doing the same thing? See Haiti to understand what happens when fuel is scarce and everyone starts cutting wood for their energy needs.

[be cause]

now all that's needed is armed security 24/7 Outside of the grate US of A where do we arm ourselves ? I do not relish a heap of dead bodies to deal with every day for the first few decades . Of course in the early days their fat would be useful for fuel and light , especially if they cut down your coppice . b.c.

[Tunnelforce9]

What you need is a fabrication lab in your Eco village.

A fab lab is typically equipped with an array of flexible computer-controlled tools that cover several different length scales and various materials, with the aim to make "almost anything".

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fab_lab

[DrTskoul]

What you need is a fabrication lab in your Eco village.

A fab lab is typically equipped with an array of flexible computer-controlled tools that cover several different length scales and various materials, with the aim to make "almost anything".

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fab_lab

And a carpentry shop...

[be cause]

and a smithy ..

[El Cid]

Seriously Archimid, do some math. A refrigerator uses 1-2 kwh PER day. Plus let's say that you heat just a room and that is also abnout 2kwh if you have very good insulation. plus lighting, etc. That is minimum 4 kwh per day. Your battery will last 3,5 days at best during winter, when you often go without any significant sun to recharge the battery for weeks. Get real now.

[Archimid]

Seriously Archimid, do some math.

Not only you want people to ignore the threat of climate change, you want to misinform them about their options to maximize their chance of survival.

A refrigerator uses 1-2 kwh PER day.

 An 18 inch modern refrigerator can consume much less than 1 kWh a day under normal use. A good chunk of that energy spent replacing the cold that escapes every time. If refrigerator discipline is kept and a high efficiency refrigerator used that consumption can fall drastically.

Plus let's say that you heat just a room and that is also abnout 2kwh if you have very good insulation. plus lighting, etc. That is minimum 4 kwh per day.

Look at your assumptions for crying out load. If you are using the batteries for heating, you don't need the batteries for refrigeration. Even then one, powerwall is 13.5kWh, 13.5-4 = 9.5, so even when using worst case scenario as you have tried, the powerwall is enough for 3 days and then some.

Not even doing the math you can see. That's how blind you are about this.

Your battery will last 3,5 days at best during winter, when you often go without any significant sun to recharge the battery for weeks. Get real now.

Get real? The energy you get during winter is function of the size of your array, the angle of the array relative to the sun. As long as there is light the batteries will at least trickle charge. The sun will eventually come out and will give you a significant charge. If the sun doesn't come out, you have bigger problems.

The fact is that having a home with back up power provided by sunlight is an strategic advantage. Take it or leave it.

[philopek]

how inviting death looks as an option ... b.c.

I often tell my better friends:

I love live but won't protest once i'm done with it, in case that it were possible

Similar to endurance sportsmen and women, they look forward to it, fight to keep running but once they reached the arrival are happy to sit down, lay back and watch.

EDIT: Further i believe in spiritual (energetic) eternity and resurrection, hence look forward to the next round
or "set of lessons" if one prefers.

[Bruce Steele]

Archimid, I have solar and I will have two power walls installed soon...I think...tesla wait...
It is damn expensive even with subsidies  but I am amazed at how much power a standard house sized system produces. We have lots of sun so solar works well here. I didn't install solar to get an edge on anyone post collapse however , I installed it to avoid using fossil fuel and if I paid too much maybe that will somehow help this technology expand. Early adopters pay extra .
 I think collapse is just a giant unknown. Maybe in some sort of financial soft collapse where unemployment gets very high, and food prices inflate, and property values collapse but civil order maintains a solar /battery system and a small farm would make life easier/cheaper.
 If social order were to collapse a small farm ( easy food ) solar and batteries ,let alone a tesla in the garage, are all just going to get you shot.
 Primitivism and some very remote location with water is about your only recourse in a fight for survival. You better have a very big jar of get tough pills if everyone goes apeshit crazy and their guns come out. Defending material possessions will likely just get you killed.
 So I envision some financial crisis is the trigger for a downsized version of modern life that will last until the oil finally runs out. Deep poverty will force us to live in small groups that can be somewhat self sufficient . The small groups that form in the depression will be the place that can teach future survival and primitive skills. People around here will learn to leach acorns.
 
 
 
 

[bluice]

Solar energy is not only distributed daily but also seasonally. Seasonal distribution gets stronger the further away one moves from the Equator. That’s why heating with solar PV and batteries is not possible in many places where you really need to heat buildings not just for comfort but for survival. Heating with PV in these locations is not just a bad idea, it is a mathematical impossibility even when using heat pumps.

For reference a link to European PV potential maps https://re.jrc.ec.europa.eu/pvg_download/map_index_c.html

See how parts of Scandinavia has similar PV potential to Central Europe. However up north solar energy is received during long summer days while peak demand is during dark winter months. Storage would need to cover several months of cold weather demand.

[dnem]

I live at 39.3 deg N latitude. I have a grid-tied, net-metered 7 kW array and electric heat pumps.  And a wood burning stove.  I don't use very much electricity off the grid for heating in the winter.  If I had a decent sized battery I could stay warm and use no electricity off the grid. I live in a neighborhood with lots of mature trees and scavenge, cut, split and stack all my own wood for free.  Not that that has much to do with surviving a true collapse.

[El Cid]

However up north solar energy is received during long summer days while peak demand is during dark winter months. Storage would need to cover several months of cold weather demand.

Thank you. This is what I tried to explain, but obviously Archimid will never understand, although it is pretty simple stuff.

[El Cid]

I live at 39.3 deg N latitude. I have a grid-tied, net-metered 7 kW array and electric heat pumps.  And a wood burning stove.  I don't use very much electricity off the grid for heating in the winter.  If I had a decent sized battery I could stay warm and use no electricity off the grid. I live in a neighborhood with lots of mature trees and scavenge, cut, split and stack all my own wood for free.  Not that that has much to do with surviving a true collapse.

That's it. That's why I suggested looking up coppicing. In NH midlatitudes solar alone is not a solution in case of real problems. In wood you should trust.

[El Cid]

One more simple maths exercise for people with basic maths knowledge:

https://www.ovoenergy.com/guides/energy-guides/how-much-heating-energy-do-you-use.html

In the UK and France (not very harsh climates as far as winter is concerned) they use 133 kWh / m2 for heating. Basically the heating season is half a year so they use about 0,7 kWh per m2 per day to heat. If you decided to heat only a 20m2 room, you'd use 20*0,7 =14 kWh per day. Ok, put some clothes on, so you use only half of that, 7 kWh per day. Wonderful, your Powerwall will last almost 2 days. And then you wait for the Sun to come up the next 2-3 weeks in the middle of winter. Good luck with that.

better get some wood instead

[Bruce Steele]

So much is dependent upon location. Around here demand spikes in the summer on hot days with lots of sun. On a daily basis demand peaks in the late afternoon/ evening so grid suppliers are switching to TOU (time of use) rate plans that increase during high demand hours. So the energy from solar that is produced from 10 am till 2 pm when you feed the grid is worth less than the energy you draw off the grid as the sun goes down. So batteries are a way to flatten out costs on very short term basis. The power wall dumps most of it's stored power back onto the grid every day and you as an owner cannot control whether you have 100% or 15% stored power when the power goes down unless you know a day in advance... Fat chance. So battery power in Calif. with subsidies is kind of a grab bag in a blackout if your sole purpose is emergency power.
 Puerto Rico isn't 39.3 north latitude and Archimid would on a crowded island have a whole set of problems and not the same problems of Northern Europe. We can't know how someone in a different culture and a totally different climate would address collapse. Archimid might know Puerto Rico better than the rest of us and after watching a big Huricane or two rip through maybe he also has a small view into collapse ?

[El Cid]

 Puerto Rico isn't 39.3 north latitude and Archimid would on a crowded island have a whole set of problems and not the same problems of Northern Europe. We can't know how someone in a different culture and a totally different climate would address collapse. Archimid might know Puerto Rico better than the rest of us and after watching a big Huricane or two rip through maybe he also has a small view into collapse ?

well, i did not know he was from Puerto Rico. Sure as hell, you don't need much heating there But anywhere in the NH midlatitudes, solar won't cover you during winter, not even one tenth of the way. That is 1000% sure. If you prepare for collapse (and presumably this thread is about that) you might as well forget solar (other than lighting) and concentrate on wood. That is why I emphasized coppicing. That is an ancient but very useful method of forest management. I do coppice some of my trees, so i have first hand knowledge...

[bligh8]

Bruce....your remarks are not far from wrong about PR

https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/us/puerto-rico-is-in-chaos-and-some-worry-continued-instability-is-a-major-threat/ar-AAEwpoi?ocid=spartandhp

Puerto Rico is in chaos, and some worry continued instability is a major threat

SAN JUAN, Puerto Rico —Tens of thousands of Puerto Ricans have been taking to the blue cobblestone streets of the old city here demanding that Gov. Ricardo Rosselló resign amid allegations of corruption and the revelation of a scandalous group chat involving his inner circle. The protests, increasingly intense, are an outgrowth of widespread indignation that has challenged his administration’s already tenuous credibility and imperiled the distribution of needed federal aid to a territory still reeling from disaster. .. more within the article

[Alexander555]

He archimid, everything ok ? Are there some riots in Puerto Rico for the moment ?

[Rich]

Once upon a time I found myself in the Netherlands for a few years and bought a farm house that had been built in the mid 19th century. It gave some insight as to how people stayed warm w/o electricity.

The living / sleeping quarters were all in one room with a central fireplace. The beds were closets around the world and perimeter of the room, each big enough for two adults and small enough so that body heat helped keep the compartment warm.

If you weren't married, you probably wound up sharing a bed with a sibling or two.

During winter, the cows came into an adjacent part of the house where they ate hay and provided more heat. During the daytime, people were doing physical labor of some sort to help stay warm.

Just an anecdote. It was not so long ago in the distant past that people lived w/o electricity.

[Tor Bejnar]

In the 1990's I (family of 4) lived off-grid at 43.7 N, generating about 1kwh on a sunny winter day with solar panels on the roof, which was my average daily usage.  Our electricity 'sinks' were the water pump (about 50 m down a 125 m deep ['artesian'] well) and a European-built high-efficiency full-sized refrigerator.  In the winter, I used an old chest freezer parked (unplugged) outside the north wall for freezing and I daily rotated gallon jugs of frozen water into the refrigerator for electricity-free fresh food storage.  My 'marine deep-cycle lead-acid' batteries had to be fairly well charged for the water pump to start, so I stored 400 liters in the top floor for 'bad days' that was plumbed into the house plumbing. (Worst case, and before the well was drilled, I walked a half kilometer to our neighbor's hand pump on his deep well.)  Heating was via an Amish-built wood cook stove.  A fungus is killing mature beech trees (actually making the wood brittle so they 'break', but not killing roots), so I never lacked recently fallen trees on my 20 acres (8 ha). 

My garden fed me for a couple weeks each year.  So don't count on me for survival!

[TerryM]

What are we "prepping" for?


If the grid works intermittently batteries and solar/wind turbines should smooth out some of the dips. State infrastructure will decay rapidly as hoarding replaces industry. Pockets of resistance to governments that can no longer provide security, sustenance or sustainability will be dealt with harshly - until they can't be dealt with at all.
Then the grid disintegrates.


When the grid is down permanently I can't believe that any State of any size will remain viable. Mad Max - with some generations existing on salvage, followed by or concurrent with some Neolithic/Paleolithic mix.


How many generations before we see successful City States capable of perpetuating themselves? How many more generations while unwashed "hill people" swarm, conquering and destroying all that the "civilized" have built and hoarded?


Teach your children welding. Teach them about germs. Assume they'll be migratory. Demonstrate reciprocity and affability. Teach them to repair, reuse, repurpose.
With great good luck your line might possibly survive.


Without an almost permanent grid we lose the internet. Paper books will be hoarded as the only source of stored knowledge. Wise men and wise women will be seen as wonderful assets - until something goes wrong and they're seen as witches and demons.


I see a massive bottleneck coming from which our species may or may not survive.
Preparations made now may or may not help.
Terry

[DrTskoul]

It's a big problem that there no big stocks of printed books any more. Stocks are kept at a minimum. There is so much knowledge only available electronically it's not even funny any more....

[Archimid]

But anywhere in the NH midlatitudes, solar won't cover you during winter, not even one tenth of the way. That is 1000% sure.

This is simply not true. It is simply a matter of having a sufficiently large a array pointed in the right direction, a sufficiently large battery and a sufficiently low consumption.

If you prepare for collapse (and presumably this thread is about that) you might as well forget solar (other than lighting) and concentrate on wood

It doesn't require much to know this is horrible advise. For a prepping situation you should have solar, batteries, wood and a fossil fuel generator to top off in emergencies.

Solar energy will cover all BASIC energy needs almost year round and during winter, if your neighbors took all the wood, it may keep you alive.

He archimid, everything ok ? Are there some riots in Puerto Rico for the moment ?

yeah, thanks for asking, I'm unaffected by the protest. People are mad but that is almost normal here.

[Archimid]

Archimid might know Puerto Rico better than the rest of us and after watching a big Huricane or two rip through maybe he also has a small view into collapse ?

I did live through local, insulated, temporary collapse. No power, no water, no accessible roads, only one radio station, no TV, no internet, no banks to get cash, for weeks and months. It sucked, but I did learn a lot from it.

The most important lesson I confirmed? All my prepping will be moot in the face of global permanent collapse. It will suck. Life will be completely different.

I also learned that preparation gives you an advantage. Every bit of preparation multiplies your well being during collapse. Of all the preparation you can do, Energy is the most important. If you have energy then getting everything else is simpler.

[gerontocrat]

It is obvious that having a source of energy such as solar power, however limited in power and varying availability at different times of the year, is a damn sight better than not having it at all.

And using solar power for air conditioning is dumb. You can have windows that open and shut. You can adjust your life style to the climate. I worked close to the lakeshore in Malawi for nearly 4 years in the years B.A.C. (Before Air Conditioning). Although it was not official any more, essentially in the hot season we worked what was known as Hot Station Hours. Unlike the words of the song, we Mad Dogs and Englishmen did not go out in the mid-day sun.

The siesta is a practical adjustment to climate, not a symbol of laziness as believed by ignorant North Europeans.

[Archimid]

The siesta is a practical adjustment to climate, not a symbol of laziness as believed by ignorant North Europeans.

Correct. The same as daily showers. Down here not showering daily is offensive to others and a reason for shaming. It makes sense. In the constant heat of 18N a person will develop bad odors very quickly. Also showers cool down the body. Several showers a day are not uncommon during very hot, active days.

However, when it is very cold, there is no sweat, no humidity. The skin is very dry. No intrinsic offensive odors accumulate. Also showering means either losing body heat to cold water or spending lots of energy to heat the water.  It makes sense that daily showers are not required.

It is amazing how the climate shapes our society and behavior and how oblivious we are to it.

[DrTskoul]

However, when it is very cold, there is no sweat, no humidity. The skin is very dry. No intrinsic offensive odors accumulate. Also showering means either losing body heat to cold water or spending lots of energy to heat the water.  It makes sense that daily showers are not required.

It is amazing how the climate shapes our society and behavior and how oblivious we are to it.

Guess again regarding sweat! When is cold you dress with multiple layers. Unless you stand still and not work or move from place to place, you sweat! You sweat at -40C unless you are freezing with a southern’s clothing preferences.

I have been at both 45C and -40C ...

And body odors have a lot to do with food preferences ... but I digress... cheers

[Archimid]

Body odors are due to bacteria that lives on our skin. Food choices will alter the composition of our secretions, which in turn may alter our skin flora. But the smell of that flora is dependent on what the normal flora is composed of and their metabolism. Cold temperatures slow down their metabolism and warm temperatures speed it up. Same as farts.

You could eat nothing but rose petals and honey, if the skin flora that prefers that kind of sweat has a stinking by product, you will stink once their metabolism is accelerated.

That said, I wouldn't doubt if certain foods maximize the chances of non stinky bacteria.

[oren]

Archimid might know Puerto Rico better than the rest of us and after watching a big Huricane or two rip through maybe he also has a small view into collapse ?

I did live through local, insulated, temporary collapse. No power, no water, no accessible roads, only one radio station, no TV, no internet, no banks to get cash, for weeks and months. It sucked, but I did learn a lot from it.

The most important lesson I confirmed? All my prepping will be moot in the face of global permanent collapse. It will suck. Life will be completely different.

I also learned that preparation gives you an advantage. Every bit of preparation multiplies your well being during collapse. Of all the preparation you can do, Energy is the most important. If you have energy then getting everything else is simpler.

Archimid, I recall your posts during the Maria aftermath quite well. Thanks for those updates, indeed this was a good (very sad) example of local and temporary collapse, under the auspices of the great USA no less. When TSHTF and no one comes to help, it will of course be many times worse.

[Aporia_filia]

Could the best prepping be adapting to the new, and stopping bad habits?
Not that long ago (and still nowadays) there were other totally fulfilling ways of living. And please, forget the Amish stereotype. Three short stories:
In 1997 a was part of the crew of a three masts ship. We went to the Marshall Islands to take back some islander families to their old island. As they had been all relocated when the nuclear tests were performed. After USA cleaned the beaches of their old island and declared them radioactive free.
I was on duty the first night we were in the atoll and an old islander, with a bit too much alcohol in him, came to tell me that they didn't need any help. The only thing they needed was us all, the 'civilized occidentals' leaving those islands for ever and letting them live their traditional way. The arrival of modernity was the end of their paradise.He was crying.

About 12 years ago one of my teachers, an old shepherd, told me how with 100 sheep he was able to build his house, marry, and send their two daughters to university. An orchard and a bit of communal work was in the mix. By the time he was telling this to me, he also said that these days, with 100 sheep, he would not be able to earn any money. Because of how the system works with grants and tons of bureaucracy. Also, wool has no market nowadays, overtaken by plastic fibers.

At about the same time, another of my teachers, also an old man who worked in the fields since he was 6, was always complaining about modern agriculture. He told me how when he was young there were no pests. Fruits and vegetables had plenty of flavor and life was hard but easier. He's favorite saying was: "this all went fucked when the first tractor came in, bringing poisons and chemicals to add to the soils".

Prepping is mainly psychological, we can live happy lives with very little.

(I live now in Asturias mountains, north Spain, very rainy, green as Ireland. Have a washing machine, a big fridge, the laptop and a few electric tools. My PV array is 2.700Wp and 900A -C100 batteries (48V). This is my second year here and I haven't seeing my batteries under 90% capacity. Adapt, adapt and adapt

[oren]

Thanks for your interesting post A_f.
It occurs to me life might be better this way, at least for most people, hard but easier - but this lifestyle cannot support 8 or 10 billion people.
The "good" news is that post collapse there will not be 10 billion people. The supply chains and intensive agriculture will not be there to feed such a number of mostly city dwellers. So once the dust settles down and the survivors somehow stabilize, the simpler lifestyles you describe will be able to support quite a few.

[Klondike Kat]

A_f,
Very nice.  We can adapt to a new way of life.  These Mad Max scenarios seem rather extreme and unfounded.  Even in the worst of times, society has never degenerated into such chaos.

[Alexander555]

This is maybe why el cid and archimid can not agree. And this is not even for the north, it's near Brussels. They only have a short winter. In the winter the production from that solar installation is only 1/10 from the production in summer. If you go further north the days get shorter in winter .I think in Puerto Rico almost all days are the same.

[Rich]

A_f,
Very nice.  We can adapt to a new way of life.  These Mad Max scenarios seem rather extreme and unfounded.  Even in the worst of times, society has never degenerated into such chaos.

We're talking about unprecedently bad times to come. Look at the example of the Donner Party. for how norms shifted when survival was on the line.

Imagine the jobs of the people working the gas Chambers and crematoria at Birkenau. How was your day honey? Oh, pretty good...we hit our quota of 3,000 twenty minutes early and the Commandant treated us to a case of Spaten and bratwurst.

Must have been some bizarre coffee break discussions.

[Bruce Steele]

Rich, Maybe collapse is just to difficult to talk about , we all know very difficult times are likely to arrive soon enough . But for the next couple weeks could you please keep the hitler, concentration camp stuff to yourself ?
 I try to think about how I might make someone's future a more livable one, maybe just dreaming .
Maybe rationalizing. But I get a little light from people like Aporia-filia, that not all futures are unbearable. Maybe even a better place. Think of something nice , Neven needs us to take care of ourselves for awhile.

[nanning]

<snippage>
So once the dust settles down and the survivors somehow stabilize, the simpler lifestyles you describe will be able to support quite a few.

I try to imagine what happens to the good people who live in the Bronx, New York, for example.

<snippage>
In the constant heat of 18N a person will develop bad odors very quickly. Also showers cool down the body.

Anecdotal:
It is summer here (53N) and I haven't showered the last 3 months; when my skin organ is left alone with all the beneficial micro-organisms, I don't stink. I change my clothes if they stink. My skin is delightfully soft and also healthy. It could be the food but I do eat meat (organic).
Just my experience. Maybe drinking beer is good after all

---

@Rich this thread has given me the opportunity to post my opinions. Thank you. (also for not claiming the thread).

[Archimid]

This is maybe why el cid and archimid can not agree. And this is not even for the north, it's near Brussels. They only have a short winter. In the winter the production from that solar installation is only 1/10 from the production in summer. If you go further north the days get shorter in winter .I think in Puerto Rico almost all days are the same.

Thanks for trying to help finding an agreement. But I am aware that solar insolation gets weaker at higher latitudes. I'm not challenging that notion.

What El Cid is not getting is that in an emergency situation energy used gets rationed and cut to a minimum.  13.5 kWh is a huge energy reserve if used correctly, specially if the sun can replenish even a few kWh a day.

I'm not saying, use solar as primary source of heat for a modern high north home under normal usage scenario. Sadly that is an unsolved problem as far as I know.

I'm saying that in a global collapse situation, having even trickle of power can mean the difference between life and death. I'm saying that a home equipped with solar and batteries can serve as a last resort heat energy source during winter. The rest of the year it can serve as a primary source of energy independent of the grid.

This is not even controversial.

[Archimid]

Anecdotal:
It is summer here (53N) and I haven't showered the last 3 months; when my skin organ is left alone with all the beneficial micro-organisms, I don't stink. I change my clothes if they stink. My skin is delightfully soft and also healthy. It could be the food but I do eat meat (organic).
Just my experience. Maybe drinking beer is good after all

I believe you. However, come down to 18N during summer and lets do some work outside. You will be begging for a shower, just to cool down. Then after a few hours you will be sweating again thinking hard about another shower.

Also, while I don't doubt that the right food will  minimize the growth of smelly bacteria, your bacteria changes according to the environment you are in. So in the wrong environment the  same habits that let you stay naturally fresh might work against you. I hope not tho. The way you describe it sounds like a very pleasant way of living.

[TerryM]

In California and Nevada it's illegal to heat a home or business using electricity as resistant heat. Heat pumps are so inefficient from +9C that resistant heat is actually a better choice!
In the event of a collapse, those few with the knowledge and tools to repair heat pumps will, after a short time, run out of the materials required to make these repairs.


Homes in Canada were viable well before electricity was available. I lived in a 5 chimney home that originally boasted 8 fireplaces. I'm sure it was comfortable even on the coldest nights, but 2 of the smallest bedrooms were originally reserved for servants. It takes a fair amount of sweat to fuel 8 fire places without chainsaws or tractors - and when the local trees have been chopped the groundsmen will need to venture ever further in their quest for fuel.


The First Nations people that lived here dwelt in 3 to 5 fire longhouses. They ended up clearing vast acreage for their corn fields while providing fuel for their fires. After a few generations they moved on as the villages weren't sustainable.


Migrants out west built very well insulated "soddies", burning cattle poo to cook their food & body heat to survive the winters. No trees, no electricity - no running water, and some even survived the winters.


Harvesting pond ice for ice boxes only went out here in the early 50's. Insulated in straw it survived through the year. Everyone can learn to saw ice, store it, and place it in a refrigerator. Not 1 in a thousand can repair an electrical refrigerator - and no one will have the needed parts and gasses after a very few years. - when the pond no longer freezes, move north.


If you can build a PV system from scratch then relying on the system makes sense.


I could build a thermal, micro hydro or wind system using lead acid batteries and auto generators, but I'm not sure it would be worth my time or energy. I'd be more likely to build solar heaters or a solar distillery.


Recall that we're not discussing "emergency situations", rather a new normal that will last many generations. We need solutions we can pass onto our children, and their children.


IMHO
Terry