Support the Arctic Sea Ice Forum and Blog

Author Topic: Prepping for Collapse  (Read 46358 times)

SteveMDFP

  • Nilas ice
  • Posts: 1389
    • View Profile
  • Liked: 166
  • Likes Given: 15
Re: Prepping for Collapse
« Reply #300 on: August 06, 2019, 06:13:07 PM »
Has anybody considered that even if everybody survived collapse, within 3 months about ~10% of the US adult population would be dead from lack of insulin. Stockpile now!

Not to mention all the other health conditions that would suddenly go untreated.

Ten percent may be diabetics (mostly older, sedentary, overweight Type 2), but I can't believe 10% of the population are treated with insulin. 

If civilization collapses, obligate fasting will control blood sugars nicely for most.  For most of the others, increased exertion will help control blood sugar levels.  Civilization collapse would likely be curative of the diabetic state for most, within a month or so.  A silver lining.

Death is not a cure, and you are delusional.

You're jumping to conclusions about my words.  Reduced caloric intake  + exercise will often resolve Type II diabetes, no demise required.

bbr2314

  • Nilas ice
  • Posts: 1739
    • View Profile
  • Liked: 155
  • Likes Given: 44
Re: Prepping for Collapse
« Reply #301 on: August 06, 2019, 08:36:45 PM »
<snip>
Death is not a cure, and you are delusional.
Why are you so judgmental? Without arguments.

The cure is to stop participating in the accelerating destruction.

Do you think everyone will die shortly after the collapse?

edit: everyone = those who depend on refrigerated medicines

99% of those people will die within a month of collapse.

Has anybody considered that even if everybody survived collapse, within 3 months about ~10% of the US adult population would be dead from lack of insulin. Stockpile now!

Not to mention all the other health conditions that would suddenly go untreated.

Ten percent may be diabetics (mostly older, sedentary, overweight Type 2), but I can't believe 10% of the population are treated with insulin. 

If civilization collapses, obligate fasting will control blood sugars nicely for most.  For most of the others, increased exertion will help control blood sugar levels.  Civilization collapse would likely be curative of the diabetic state for most, within a month or so.  A silver lining.

Death is not a cure, and you are delusional.

You're jumping to conclusions about my words.  Reduced caloric intake  + exercise will often resolve Type II diabetes, no demise required.
Tell that to the Type II diabetics and they will start jumping on treadmills today, why wait for societal collapse! Do you realize how ridiculous you sound? Hey everyone, SteveXYZ has cured the diabetes, praise jeebus! Now give them their cure pills.  ;D

SteveMDFP

  • Nilas ice
  • Posts: 1389
    • View Profile
  • Liked: 166
  • Likes Given: 15
Re: Prepping for Collapse
« Reply #302 on: August 06, 2019, 08:46:31 PM »

Tell that to the Type II diabetics and they will start jumping on treadmills today, why wait for societal collapse! Do you realize how ridiculous you sound? Hey everyone, SteveXYZ has cured the diabetes, praise jeebus! Now give them their cure pills.  ;D

Sigh.  The reason Type II DM is widely considered a chronic, incurable disease is that it's bloody difficult for most such sufferers to change life-long habits to get sufficient exercise and substantial weight loss.   For some, even dramatic changes won't totally put the condition into remission, but almost all will have very substantial improvement.  Type II DM has multi-factorial pathology.

It's quite different for Type I DM, of course.

bbr2314

  • Nilas ice
  • Posts: 1739
    • View Profile
  • Liked: 155
  • Likes Given: 44
Re: Prepping for Collapse
« Reply #303 on: August 06, 2019, 08:49:34 PM »

Tell that to the Type II diabetics and they will start jumping on treadmills today, why wait for societal collapse! Do you realize how ridiculous you sound? Hey everyone, SteveXYZ has cured the diabetes, praise jeebus! Now give them their cure pills.  ;D

Sigh. The reason Type II DM is widely considered a chronic, incurable disease is that it's bloody difficult for most such sufferers to change life-long habits to get sufficient exercise and substantial weight loss.   For some, even dramatic changes won't totally put the condition into remission, but almost all will have very substantial improvement. Type II DM has multi-factorial pathology.

It's quite different for Type I DM, of course.

OK, so we are back to  --

99% of those people will die within a month of collapse.

Thanks!

philopek

  • Frazil ice
  • Posts: 365
    • View Profile
  • Liked: 135
  • Likes Given: 39
Re: Prepping for Collapse
« Reply #304 on: August 06, 2019, 08:52:15 PM »

Tell that to the Type II diabetics and they will start jumping on treadmills today, why wait for societal collapse! Do you realize how ridiculous you sound? Hey everyone, SteveXYZ has cured the diabetes, praise jeebus! Now give them their cure pills.  ;D

I was just opening one of your posts to see whether at least in such an obvious case you could jump over your shadow and simply say sorry for misinterpretation?

Of course not. All your input is 90% poisonous, not one tiny bit of collaboration or consensus seeking.

How do you think there would be the tiniest chance to avoid said collapse if everyone behaved like you do? But you're in good company, only that most of the majority would NOT inject their venom in such a forum, which, BTW is ultimately worse.

I think it has to be told from time to time.

be cause

  • Grease ice
  • Posts: 834
  • Citizenship .. a Lurker gets asylum
    • View Profile
  • Liked: 211
  • Likes Given: 185
Re: Prepping for Collapse
« Reply #305 on: August 06, 2019, 09:01:04 PM »
most type 2 diabetics seem to prefer to lose a limb or two rather than change their diet . My aunt lost a foot then a leg  rather than eat vegetables . Those who do change diet and behaviour usually can cease their meds and return to a healthy life . Maybe societal collapse will be the end of type 2 diabetes .. an ill wind etc .. :) .. b.c.
2007 + 5 = 2012 + 4 = 2016 + 3 = 2019 ...

bbr2314

  • Nilas ice
  • Posts: 1739
    • View Profile
  • Liked: 155
  • Likes Given: 44
Re: Prepping for Collapse
« Reply #306 on: August 06, 2019, 09:06:39 PM »

Tell that to the Type II diabetics and they will start jumping on treadmills today, why wait for societal collapse! Do you realize how ridiculous you sound? Hey everyone, SteveXYZ has cured the diabetes, praise jeebus! Now give them their cure pills.  ;D

I was just opening one of your posts to see whether at least in such an obvious case you could jump over your shadow and simply say sorry for misinterpretation?

Of course not. All your input is 90% poisonous, not one tiny bit of collaboration or consensus seeking.

How do you think there would be the tiniest chance to avoid said collapse if everyone behaved like you do? But you're in good company, only that most of the majority would NOT inject their venom in such a forum, which, BTW is ultimately worse.

I think it has to be told from time to time.
?

My input is not 90% poisonous, I have a realistic viewpoint for human behavior, if you want to exist in a fairyland that is your prerogative, unfortunately I am stuck on The Planet of the Apes and imminent doom is likely near, and there is nothing you or I or anyone can do about it.

bbr2314

  • Nilas ice
  • Posts: 1739
    • View Profile
  • Liked: 155
  • Likes Given: 44
Re: Prepping for Collapse
« Reply #307 on: August 06, 2019, 09:07:08 PM »
most type 2 diabetics seem to prefer to lose a limb or two rather than change their diet . My aunt lost a foot then a leg  rather than eat vegetables . Those who do change diet and behaviour usually can cease their meds and return to a healthy life . Maybe societal collapse will be the end of type 2 diabetes .. an ill wind etc .. :) .. b.c.
But what's his name said your aunt just needs exercise and then she'll be fine! LOL

be cause

  • Grease ice
  • Posts: 834
  • Citizenship .. a Lurker gets asylum
    • View Profile
  • Liked: 211
  • Likes Given: 185
Re: Prepping for Collapse
« Reply #308 on: August 06, 2019, 09:47:43 PM »
My aunt ? .. she's decomposing atm .. ( LOL ? ) ..  it's healthy eating AND exercise that prevent or cure Type 2 ..
2007 + 5 = 2012 + 4 = 2016 + 3 = 2019 ...

philopek

  • Frazil ice
  • Posts: 365
    • View Profile
  • Liked: 135
  • Likes Given: 39
Re: Prepping for Collapse
« Reply #309 on: August 06, 2019, 10:09:06 PM »
My aunt ? .. she's decomposing atm .. ( LOL ? ) ..  it's healthy eating AND exercise that prevent or cure Type 2 ..

Just to tell:

I have/had Type 2 at age 42, changed my nutrition and do exercises and cardio every day. 

Nowadays I often jump out of bed in the morning and run down the stairs while decades earlier i needed hand rails due to rigid muscles and aching joints + restless leg syndrom then now gone.

Only thing that never recovered from that time is eye-sight but it remained within range and then esophagus remained sensitive to alcohol, wheat and sweets.

Same glasses for 15 years, before that I tried without glasses but ultimately had to succumb ;) ;)

So it's exactly true that nutrition cures the symptoms while the damage is done and there is no way back to conditions before it started.

Last but not least i can't tell how much and what I ate before, I'm embarrassed.

Not bad quality but up to 7000kcal per day, mostly sweets, beer, booze, pizzas and steaks and spaghetti. Fortunately jointly with about 24 hours sports per week so at least I wasn't getting too fat.
« Last Edit: August 06, 2019, 10:15:13 PM by philopek »

SteveMDFP

  • Nilas ice
  • Posts: 1389
    • View Profile
  • Liked: 166
  • Likes Given: 15
Re: Prepping for Collapse
« Reply #310 on: August 07, 2019, 05:29:40 AM »

OK, so we are back to  --

99% of those people will die within a month of collapse.

Thanks!

Quite the opposite.  Civilization collapse would likely cause the vast majority to switch to a low calorie diet and greatly increase their activity level. No choice there. Meanwhile, insulin can be kept at room temperature for at least a month, with FDA-approved levels of potency remaining.   Beyond which, most Type II's need only oral medication, with stability of agents for many months.

You're right, though, about the less common Type I folks.  Without insulin, they're gonners, regardless of diet and exercise.

bbr2314

  • Nilas ice
  • Posts: 1739
    • View Profile
  • Liked: 155
  • Likes Given: 44
Re: Prepping for Collapse
« Reply #311 on: August 07, 2019, 05:44:14 AM »

OK, so we are back to  --

99% of those people will die within a month of collapse.

Thanks!

Quite the opposite.  Civilization collapse would likely cause the vast majority to switch to a low calorie diet and greatly increase their activity level. No choice there. Meanwhile, insulin can be kept at room temperature for at least a month, with FDA-approved levels of potency remaining.   Beyond which, most Type II's need only oral medication, with stability of agents for many months.

You're right, though, about the less common Type I folks.  Without insulin, they're gonners, regardless of diet and exercise.

I think you are extremely naively optimistic.

The initial carnage of the first week or two post-collapse would probably result in the deaths of a very substantial portion of the population. No law, no order, no food for some -- in dense areas you would probably be seeing cannibalism by the third week.

SteveMDFP

  • Nilas ice
  • Posts: 1389
    • View Profile
  • Liked: 166
  • Likes Given: 15
Re: Prepping for Collapse
« Reply #312 on: August 07, 2019, 05:52:46 AM »

OK, so we are back to  --

99% of those people will die within a month of collapse.

Thanks!

Quite the opposite.  Civilization collapse would likely cause the vast majority to switch to a low calorie diet and greatly increase their activity level. No choice there. Meanwhile, insulin can be kept at room temperature for at least a month, with FDA-approved levels of potency remaining.   Beyond which, most Type II's need only oral medication, with stability of agents for many months.

You're right, though, about the less common Type I folks.  Without insulin, they're gonners, regardless of diet and exercise.

I think you are extremely naively optimistic.

The initial carnage of the first week or two post-collapse would probably result in the deaths of a very substantial portion of the population. No law, no order, no food for some -- in dense areas you would probably be seeing cannibalism by the third week.

It's hard to guess what collapse will look like.  But I think the example of Hurricane Maria on Puerto Rico may be a good case study.  Weeks of no grid electricity.  A functioning military and national guard for quite some time.  They're geared for operating for long periods without a grid or gas stations.  It was actually the rural areas that had little or no support.  Urban areas had better lifelines. 

In all, I expect a stuttering collapse--two steps backwards for each periodic step forward.

bbr2314

  • Nilas ice
  • Posts: 1739
    • View Profile
  • Liked: 155
  • Likes Given: 44
Re: Prepping for Collapse
« Reply #313 on: August 07, 2019, 05:58:04 AM »

OK, so we are back to  --

99% of those people will die within a month of collapse.

Thanks!

Quite the opposite.  Civilization collapse would likely cause the vast majority to switch to a low calorie diet and greatly increase their activity level. No choice there. Meanwhile, insulin can be kept at room temperature for at least a month, with FDA-approved levels of potency remaining.   Beyond which, most Type II's need only oral medication, with stability of agents for many months.

You're right, though, about the less common Type I folks.  Without insulin, they're gonners, regardless of diet and exercise.

I think you are extremely naively optimistic.

The initial carnage of the first week or two post-collapse would probably result in the deaths of a very substantial portion of the population. No law, no order, no food for some -- in dense areas you would probably be seeing cannibalism by the third week.

It's hard to guess what collapse will look like.  But I think the example of Hurricane Maria on Puerto Rico may be a good case study.  Weeks of no grid electricity.  A functioning military and national guard for quite some time.  They're geared for operating for long periods without a grid or gas stations.  It was actually the rural areas that had little or no support.  Urban areas had better lifelines. 

In all, I expect a stuttering collapse--two steps backwards for each periodic step forward.

IDK, when Sandy happened in NYC, Lower Manhattan was essentially a war zone by day 3 or 4. Not with crime, but it was completely abandoned. There were massive fuel and logistics issues as well, with the subways largely down. That was only three to four days.

petm

  • Grease ice
  • Posts: 675
    • View Profile
  • Liked: 334
  • Likes Given: 27
Re: Prepping for Collapse
« Reply #314 on: August 07, 2019, 06:46:52 AM »
Collapse won't be all at once, like in a movie. It will accelerate gradually over a period long enough that people won't really notice, at least not for a while and not until it's too late to do much about. Just like climate change. And also just like climate change, although you need to pay attention and know where to look to see the symptoms, the collapse of civilization has already begun. A few decades from now, both will be obvious. A few generations from now, both will be unrecognizable.

bluice

  • Frazil ice
  • Posts: 122
    • View Profile
  • Liked: 33
  • Likes Given: 153
Re: Prepping for Collapse
« Reply #315 on: August 07, 2019, 09:25:38 AM »
When ecosystem collapse happens it will become everyday life, and I think it's fair to ask whether we are in this phase already. Even major ones such as coral reefs are on the brink of collapsing entirely. At the same time biodiversity is being lost at an alarming rate all over the world which paints a picture of underlying poor health of ecosystems around us. The pressure is simply too strong and rate of change too rapid.

Environmental change will eventually cause societies to fail but here human factors come to play as well. This can be a gradual process also. Venezuelan economy and society has in many ways collapsed and I doubt this has caused neither imminent deaths nor improved health for Venezuelan type 2 diabetic patients.
In PIOMAS we trust

nanning

  • Grease ice
  • Posts: 649
    • View Profile
  • Liked: 89
  • Likes Given: 4150
Re: Prepping for Collapse
« Reply #316 on: August 07, 2019, 12:26:11 PM »
<snip>
Venezuelan economy and society has in many ways collapsed and I doubt this has caused neither imminent deaths nor improved health for Venezuelan type 2 diabetic patients.

Many left the country. Exercise.
"It is preoccupation with possessions, more than anything else, that prevents us from living freely and nobly" - Bertrand Russell

bluice

  • Frazil ice
  • Posts: 122
    • View Profile
  • Liked: 33
  • Likes Given: 153
Re: Prepping for Collapse
« Reply #317 on: August 07, 2019, 01:08:58 PM »
Many left the country. Exercise.
Yep. And to get back on topic: how do you prep for a situation such as Venezuela? It's a good example of an economic collapse leading to breakdown of law and order. Not a one off incident but steady decline.

I suppose it's useful to be able to grow some food, generate some electricity and have reasonable stockpiles to get over the worst periods. Even more important would be to have practical skills and a good network of reliable friends and family. Electricians, mechanics and doctors can always trade their labour to useful things. This is not so easy for marketing managers and HR consultants.
In PIOMAS we trust

gerontocrat

  • First-year ice
  • Posts: 6099
    • View Profile
  • Liked: 1187
  • Likes Given: 19
Re: Prepping for Collapse
« Reply #318 on: August 07, 2019, 02:56:42 PM »
Venezuelan economy and society has in many ways collapsed and I doubt this has caused neither imminent deaths nor improved health for Venezuelan type 2 diabetic patients.
I did some research on health statistics on Iraq after the 2003 war. Lost when my laptop was stolen.
Diabetes was / is a big problem in Iraq, and the supply of insulin went down to almost zero, and a good many people died.

But the real killer was the collapse of the water and sanitation systems. Dysentry, some out breaks of cholera and non-availability of the basic magic fluid (sugars and salts and incredeibly cheap) caused the greatest number of deaths amongst the very young and very old.

And we are talking thousands, many thousands.

Your basic prepping package should include water purification filters and tablets, and a way of disposing of fecal matter safely, and in the longer-term ways of acquiring clean water.

 
"Para a Causa do Povo a Luta Continua!"
"And that's all I'm going to say about that". Forrest Gump
"Damn, I wanted to see what happened next" (Epitaph)

nanning

  • Grease ice
  • Posts: 649
    • View Profile
  • Liked: 89
  • Likes Given: 4150
Re: Prepping for Collapse
« Reply #319 on: August 07, 2019, 05:18:25 PM »

Yep. And to get back on topic: how do you prep for a situation such as Venezuela? It's a good example of an economic collapse leading to breakdown of law and order. Not a one off incident but steady decline.

Global infrastructure is still intact. So not a good example I think. It is more of a south-american 'island' under severe attack from the U.S.A.. For decades.

@gerontocrat
"Lost when my laptop was stolen."
Shit!
"It is preoccupation with possessions, more than anything else, that prevents us from living freely and nobly" - Bertrand Russell

nanning

  • Grease ice
  • Posts: 649
    • View Profile
  • Liked: 89
  • Likes Given: 4150
Re: Prepping for Collapse
« Reply #320 on: August 07, 2019, 06:58:46 PM »
<snip>

Hi bbr2314,this is a well meant post. I feel your anger I think. Maybe I'm wrong but just wanna say that personally I have accepted that there's nothing we can do. Therefore I have peace and tranquillity.

I'm not downbeaten by the apocalyptic catastrophy unfolding because I'm not responsible, I'm not participating.
Humankind, or better: Civilisation is the destroyer. The conqueror.
To express my disgust of living in this civilisation, I try to be a good beautiful human with high morality and empathy. This is not my world. I live outside civilisation where possible. You should try it.

Perhaps time for change?
"It is preoccupation with possessions, more than anything else, that prevents us from living freely and nobly" - Bertrand Russell

Shared Humanity

  • Young ice
  • Posts: 3917
    • View Profile
  • Liked: 393
  • Likes Given: 46
Re: Prepping for Collapse
« Reply #321 on: August 07, 2019, 07:13:12 PM »
Maybe I'm wrong but just wanna say that personally I have accepted that there's nothing we can do.


Well at least you qualified the statement. You are wrong. There are things we need to do and we need to start immediately. Going carbon free by 2050 will have a dramatic impact on the future of this planet and to suggest otherwise is dangerous.

Reminds me of a comment Bobby Knight (famous division I basketball coach) made in 1988.

''I think that if rape is inevitable, relax and enjoy it.''

He was roundly criticized.

https://www.nytimes.com/1988/04/27/sports/knight-is-criticized-over-rape-remark.html

Bruce Steele

  • Nilas ice
  • Posts: 1429
    • View Profile
  • Liked: 102
  • Likes Given: 8
Re: Prepping for Collapse
« Reply #322 on: August 07, 2019, 09:04:15 PM »
Creating and living an enviable lifestyle that both both remains comfortable and solves our fossil fuel dependence is the brass ring. First we figure out how to do that and then we need the costs of the infrastructure to drop to make it possible for the poor to participate.
 Spending lots of energy trying to change other people without good suggestions about what they should do seems pointless. People around here put up solar because it saves them money, EV seems to be getting there also. Smart meters and TOU ( time of use ) electric rates can incentivize grid users to move electric use to low cost hours and help flatten out use spikes. Batteries , solar , wind and a smart grid can decentralize power production.
 
Industry, the police, the military, aviation, food production, trucking ??  Big segments of our societies fossil fuel consumption seem deaf.  If this large segment of civilization, the parts that facilitate civil society , cannot also get their emissions moving towards zero then what ? 
 It seems we have a system where the largest portion of our carbon footprint continues unabated while our residential electricity and EV use are improving at least for the wealthy.  I can understand how people without money might question how they should proceed. Forward into the gleaming cities or back onto grandpa farm.  So going back or dropping out do have an appeal and for some I would think it makes more sense .  It's not like they are making a choice between a low carbon rural life that can address food , transport and infrastructure costs and the choice/option of a solar/battery suburban home with an EV in the garage. They don't have two options. 
 Not if reducing their carbon footprint is their goal.

« Last Edit: August 07, 2019, 09:18:25 PM by Bruce Steele »

nanning

  • Grease ice
  • Posts: 649
    • View Profile
  • Liked: 89
  • Likes Given: 4150
Re: Prepping for Collapse
« Reply #323 on: August 08, 2019, 05:04:57 AM »
SH, I understand your view as one from inside civilisation. A correct one in that context I think.
Bruce, thank you for the different and, I think, more realistic and emphatic view.

My main concern is with how much remaining biodiversity there will be after civilisation has collapsed. How much beautiful rich complex life will survive the anthropogene. In my view, mass extinction and los of ecosystems is the main catastrophy. Most people are extreme human-centric (egocentric) I think.

I recon that the earlier civilisation collapses, the more life will remain to start a new episode without human technology; when rebuild of new biodiversity has still a good chance (ie not having to wait for millions of years).

Every extra year is another year of accelerated destruction. I think we agree on that.

Nobody's steering our 'Titanic' and all life on Earth are caught up in human's metaphorical Titanic. I wish, and expect, this Titanic to go crashing down under the waves soon. I have my eye on all other life on Earth. Not just humans and especially not civilisation which is responsible for so much suffering and destruction.
I have understood the unnatural (against nature) foundations of civilisation and understand there will never be a non-destruction future, ever, with these unnatural foundations.
It is so crazy that people don't want to think or even hear about these foundations. I've got used to getting bashed. Also from friends and family. I am alone alas. It is what it is.

I think only Earth's nature constraints will stop this. Technology (magic) cannot save us. No free lunch. Affluence is unsustainable, even for just the minority of richer people. It's also the blind and evil externalisation of 'costs'. Keep the dream alive for the richer minority (= nightmare for the majority, including all other life!).
You cannot cure the insanity of the system, the culture. It's a stampede.

I feel that I haven't been able to find the precise wording to express my ideas about this. Sorry if I have failed to be clear.
"It is preoccupation with possessions, more than anything else, that prevents us from living freely and nobly" - Bertrand Russell

Human Habitat Index

  • Frazil ice
  • Posts: 153
    • View Profile
  • Liked: 19
  • Likes Given: 71
Re: Prepping for Collapse
« Reply #324 on: August 08, 2019, 05:51:02 AM »
nanning, I very much appreciate your posts.

We can be alone together  :)
There is a principle which is a bar against all information, which cannot fail to keep a man in everlasting ignorance. That principle is contempt prior to investigation. - Herbert Spencer

nanning

  • Grease ice
  • Posts: 649
    • View Profile
  • Liked: 89
  • Likes Given: 4150
Re: Prepping for Collapse
« Reply #325 on: August 08, 2019, 08:40:49 AM »
Thank you Human Habitat Index!
Alone but not lonely :). Here is an imaginary warm hug from me.


My 'preparation' for collapse story.

There was only one right thing I could do when learning about AGW and mass extinction and that is:

1. STOP PARTICIPATING.

During my hermitic research to find the foundations, the causes, I came to understand the madness of civilisation (see my posts in the "Is man the unnatural animal?"-thread).

2. MOVE OUT OF THE CULTURE OF CIVILISATION AS FAR AS POSSIBLE.

So I
 - Don't participate in the destruction, which means no affluence or ownership, be poor, don't take more than you need,  low CO2 etc.
 - Don't participate in the culture of low morality. I've raised my morality such as don't lie, show respect and be kind to everyone, don't call names or curse, other life is as imporant as my own, no group behaviour, no temptations etc. I think I've understood/defined general morality. Why it matters and what it means (see posts in mentioned thread).

By choosing to be affluence-poor and reach for high morality I paved the way for me to be sane, happy and complete.
My 4 years in hermitage have been an enormous personal transformation and eyeopener. My 'view' has changed almost completely.
I'd like to think I have become a very rich human.

----------------------
As a side note:
Interesting from wikipedia https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lie#Consequences:
Quote
When a lie is discovered, the state of mind and behavior of the liar is no longer predictable.

Hannah Arendt spoke about extraordinary cases in which an entire society is being lied to consistently. She said that the consequences of such lying are "not that you believe the lies, but rather that nobody believes anything any longer.
"It is preoccupation with possessions, more than anything else, that prevents us from living freely and nobly" - Bertrand Russell

Aporia_filia

  • New ice
  • Posts: 64
    • View Profile
  • Liked: 35
  • Likes Given: 0
Re: Prepping for Collapse
« Reply #326 on: August 08, 2019, 11:58:43 AM »
Yeah, nanning, I agree.
If you don't try LSD or if you don't ever fall in love, you wouldn't know what a high in drugs means.
Unless you move away from civilization in a spiritual and physical way, you wouldn't feel that deep contact with nature that makes you feel so complete and serene.

Human Habitat Index

  • Frazil ice
  • Posts: 153
    • View Profile
  • Liked: 19
  • Likes Given: 71
Re: Prepping for Collapse
« Reply #327 on: August 08, 2019, 12:06:13 PM »
I like to think that I am a spiritual being having a human experience rather than a human being having a spiritual experience.
There is a principle which is a bar against all information, which cannot fail to keep a man in everlasting ignorance. That principle is contempt prior to investigation. - Herbert Spencer

wili

  • Young ice
  • Posts: 2536
    • View Profile
  • Liked: 131
  • Likes Given: 287
Re: Prepping for Collapse
« Reply #328 on: August 08, 2019, 12:52:13 PM »
Nanning, many others share your general perspective, even if perhaps few have been as successful at fully decoupling from the juggernaut.
"A force de chercher de bonnes raisons, on en trouve; on les dit; et après on y tient, non pas tant parce qu'elles sont bonnes que pour ne pas se démentir." Choderlos de Laclos "You struggle to come up with some valid reasons, then cling to them, not because they're good, but just to not back down."

TerryM

  • First-year ice
  • Posts: 5015
    • View Profile
  • Liked: 316
  • Likes Given: 5
Re: Prepping for Collapse
« Reply #329 on: August 10, 2019, 12:46:58 PM »
For me collapse will come like a candle snuffed out in a cave.


The garage door doesn't respond to repeated clicks - so I back up the ramp, fumble for my key and work the lock - to no avail.

To hell with it. As I head to the restaurant I notice that traffic lights are down. Everyone's calm, this is Canada, make way for the other guy and wait your turn. The doors are open wide at Maria's. She greats me at the door and explains in broken English that the power's out, the water's off and the gas is down. She's let the help off for the evening shift. Over luke warm cokes she begs my forgiveness, assures me she'll be open for breakfast - and waves off payment for the drink.

Back at my building the door to the lobby's propped open, the chairs and couches are fully occupied by old ladies who call the building home. They're probably in the lobby to avoid the hike to their apartments with the elevators frozen in place. I consider the climb to my 16th floor flat, then opt for the Hilton.

Still no traffic lights, but on arriving I discover that my plastic is worthless.
I head toward the hospital hoping to re-up my meds, but traffic is impossible so I drive to a friends home in Kitchener using the back roads. No radio, no TV, no phones, no way to contact anyone, no way for them to contact you. No one has any idea what's happening anyway.

I garage my car, poop in her garden and pee beside her house. We share some warm beer, a few cold sandwiches and any number of conspiracy theorys - but my pills are in short supply. I head back to Cambridge after a tearful goodbye, only to find the pharmacy's shelves have been stripped - and that the warm refrigerated boxes smell badly even with the contents gone. I spend the night sleeping in the car outside my apartment building. Sleeping in the car leaves me cramped, stiff and grumpy.

Then they begin. Thousands from Toronto with curious children and terrified wives. Soon tens of thousands more arrive, cars are abandoned on streets, roads and the 401. The next day the migrant hordes increase yet again, but now they're on foot and all are desperate. Nothing is secure from them, nothing survives their rapacious hungers. Parents fear for their children, children fear their surroundings and everyone fears what the future holds. My still operating car gets noticed, noticed but not attacked.

It's been a week. No word from anyone or anywhere. Looted stores, food vending machines torn open, but coins left strewn across the floor. Some people have formed into mobs. Some defending against the interlopers, some battling against the defenders. All sure that their side is justified. All sure their side will prevail. Fires flicker through the night. Families and loners stumble across trampled fields in search of sustenance. Something to eat - perhaps just somewhere to hide that night. Overloaded canoes manned by people who've never been on the water, but who believe that things must be better down stream. The local weir becomes a deathtrap. Bloated bodies bob in the river or tangle against the shoreline, disturbing those filling their water bottles. We locals know where the streams are - not pristine, but surely better than the river.

Fishermen swarm the banks and the bridges. The few who meet with any success scurry off with fish tails flapping from a bulging pocket. Abandoned children cast covetous glances at the scaly protrusions as the triumphant anglers shrink their postures and furtively make for some hidden spot to prepare their tiny, but hopefully solitary repast. Most everyone is silent, avoiding others, especially the eyes of others. The Farmer's Market is abandoned for the first time in 150 years. Barter might have worked, but the farmers that could still manage their bi-weekly journeys are not interested in leaving their fields, their families or their livestock.

If there is law enforcement, they are certainly invisible. No sirens, few horns, a few muffled explosions  - usually at night - The heavy bell donated by Queen Victoria must have been electrified at some point, it's been silent from the first. Now the silence is only broken by an occasional shout, a scream or the rare shot. I've swung by city hall, but the broken windows and small fires don't engender hope from that quarter. Homes and apartments are mainly occupied by owners and renters. Public buildings, stores and shops are freely used by others. Some have been trashed - most provide shelter, at least marginally.

I've given up on my 16th floor apartment and it's contents - but note my great coat covering an emaciated form sleeping under someone's hedge. The weather has been good. Not too hot during the day. Not too cold at night. Thank God there's been no rain as the big storm drains have been occupied for days.

As my metabolism slows my hunger is abated. I haven't seen a pet for days or heard a dog bark. Even squirrels are scarce. I'm running on empty and so is my car. I decide to set out for Blair. Only an easy hike from the city but few people and little traffic - even the Toronto crazies may have missed Blair - perhaps the GPS going down isn't without benefit. My car shudders to a stop just short of the village. It blocks one lane, but I haven't seen a moving vehicle for hours. I hobble along Blair Road, fill my bottle at the old mill pond, then up the steep hill to the old cemetery. I know the area well.

I obey the No Trespassing signs and avoid cutting through peoples yards. Old habits die hard in the minds of the old. My childhood home is beside the cemetery, it peaks out between the now mature pines.

The view is still magnificent. If there had been cattle or sheep they're gone. The ospreys, eagles and hawks still tend to their fledglings, but vultures don't waste time circling as rotting carrion is everywhere. Ageless root fences break the horizon. Not a cloud in the sky - nor a contrail.

Walking has been difficult for decades. I lean against a gigantic willow, remembering that the Iroquois called this the valley of the River of Weeping Willows. Maybe this one was flourishing then - it's certainly big enough. The aged Ash I'd once waxed poetic about has been axed. I found a large hollow and pressed myself into the willow. I close my eyes.

Through lowered lids I reviewed the past week. Was this the collapse we so feared? Why were we never notified? Why didn't the authorities take any interest? Were similar scenarios playing out through the country, the continent, the world? I'll never know. I'll never reopened my eyes.

Terry
« Last Edit: August 10, 2019, 01:16:28 PM by TerryM »

bbr2314

  • Nilas ice
  • Posts: 1739
    • View Profile
  • Liked: 155
  • Likes Given: 44
Re: Prepping for Collapse
« Reply #330 on: August 10, 2019, 04:20:14 PM »
Not to be rude but it is much more likely you will be dead before "collapse" as an old person, this is also why old people fantasize about collapse in particular, because it is re-assuring to imagine the world you were born into is obliterated before you are dead, as if it cannot go on without your existence.

For TerryM, and for most or all of us here, death is likely to come anticlimactically from heart attacks or cancer or strokes or sudden car crashes.

Perhaps this is why the collapse narrative is so prominent and attractive to so many (even if it is also actually possible).

nanning

  • Grease ice
  • Posts: 649
    • View Profile
  • Liked: 89
  • Likes Given: 4150
Re: Prepping for Collapse
« Reply #331 on: August 10, 2019, 04:45:43 PM »
Wow Terry, you've missed a calling. Great to read and very plausible I'd say.

Of course there's the military etc. Are they going to save the country?
"It is preoccupation with possessions, more than anything else, that prevents us from living freely and nobly" - Bertrand Russell

nanning

  • Grease ice
  • Posts: 649
    • View Profile
  • Liked: 89
  • Likes Given: 4150
Re: Prepping for Collapse
« Reply #332 on: August 10, 2019, 04:49:01 PM »
How would you describe the collapse bbr2314? I don't mean when.
Such as if large electricity infrastructure fails, as in Terry's story.
"It is preoccupation with possessions, more than anything else, that prevents us from living freely and nobly" - Bertrand Russell

gerontocrat

  • First-year ice
  • Posts: 6099
    • View Profile
  • Liked: 1187
  • Likes Given: 19
Re: Prepping for Collapse
« Reply #333 on: August 10, 2019, 06:23:16 PM »
Wow Terry, you've missed a calling. Great to read and very plausible I'd say.

Of course there's the military etc. Are they going to save the country?
If push comes to shove, they will save themselves, as will those who have an entree to the safe places built during the cold war.
"Para a Causa do Povo a Luta Continua!"
"And that's all I'm going to say about that". Forrest Gump
"Damn, I wanted to see what happened next" (Epitaph)

Neven

  • Administrator
  • First-year ice
  • *****
  • Posts: 7074
    • View Profile
    • Arctic Sea Ice Blog
  • Liked: 663
  • Likes Given: 433
Re: Prepping for Collapse
« Reply #334 on: August 10, 2019, 10:51:44 PM »
Not to be rude but it is much more likely you will be dead before "collapse" as an old person, this is also why old people fantasize about collapse in particular, because it is re-assuring to imagine the world you were born into is obliterated before you are dead, as if it cannot go on without your existence.

For TerryM, and for most or all of us here, death is likely to come anticlimactically from heart attacks or cancer or strokes or sudden car crashes.

Perhaps this is why the collapse narrative is so prominent and attractive to so many (even if it is also actually possible).

Most people actually spend their final years to keep everything as is, so that the world doesn't change after they're gone. People become more conservative as they grow older, and I don't find fantasizing about collapse a very conservative thing to do.
Il faut comparer, comparer, comparer, et cultiver notre jardin

bbr2314

  • Nilas ice
  • Posts: 1739
    • View Profile
  • Liked: 155
  • Likes Given: 44
Re: Prepping for Collapse
« Reply #335 on: August 11, 2019, 12:11:22 AM »
Not to be rude but it is much more likely you will be dead before "collapse" as an old person, this is also why old people fantasize about collapse in particular, because it is re-assuring to imagine the world you were born into is obliterated before you are dead, as if it cannot go on without your existence.

For TerryM, and for most or all of us here, death is likely to come anticlimactically from heart attacks or cancer or strokes or sudden car crashes.

Perhaps this is why the collapse narrative is so prominent and attractive to so many (even if it is also actually possible).

Most people actually spend their final years to keep everything as is, so that the world doesn't change after they're gone. People become more conservative as they grow older, and I don't find fantasizing about collapse a very conservative thing to do.
This may be so, but I still think what I said holds true for many people (particularly men). It is why end-of-world conspiracies are so attractive etc, in my opinion.

It is actually kind of re-assuring to think that most, or all, of us are likely to die of boring horribly natural non-cataclysmic causes vs. as a result of collapse. Glass half full!  8)

MyACIsDying

  • New ice
  • Posts: 48
    • View Profile
  • Liked: 39
  • Likes Given: 8
Re: Prepping for Collapse
« Reply #336 on: August 11, 2019, 10:47:41 AM »
Bbr, what you're describing is only valid for the immoral man. Terry's story serves as a beautiful contrast.

The immoral man, who fears judgment, would be unable to see such peaceful end. Instead they fantasize about becoming kings of their own domain, rewriting all rules to be buried in gold and honour, redeemed of the crimes they committed in their previous life.

I do find solace in the idea that even if the rich manage to escape to their doomsday bunkers, they have clearly forgotten the fact that their top position in the system is worthless once the bottom falls out. No doctors, no farmers, no plumbers, no engineers. The provisions they stored will only give them more time to realize how poorly they've treated the common folk.

Villabolo

  • New ice
  • Posts: 51
    • View Profile
    • Global Warming Basics
  • Liked: 9
  • Likes Given: 22
Re: Prepping for Collapse
« Reply #337 on: August 14, 2019, 03:47:54 PM »
Quote
SteveMDFP

You're jumping to conclusions about my words.  Reduced caloric intake  + exercise will often resolve Type II diabetes, no demise required.

Don't forget to mention a high potency vitamin intake with reduced caloric diets. Without them you will suffer from malnutrition.
« Last Edit: August 14, 2019, 06:29:47 PM by Villabolo »

kassy

  • Grease ice
  • Posts: 623
    • View Profile
  • Liked: 177
  • Likes Given: 267
Re: Prepping for Collapse
« Reply #338 on: August 14, 2019, 06:04:06 PM »
If you reduce calories by eating sensible nutritious food instead of hamburgers and fries (as a random example) you don´t need vitamin pills.
Þetta minnismerki er til vitnis um að við vitum hvað er að gerast og hvað þarf að gera. Aðeins þú veist hvort við gerðum eitthvað.

DrTskoul

  • Nilas ice
  • Posts: 1451
    • View Profile
  • Liked: 209
  • Likes Given: 60
Re: Prepping for Collapse
« Reply #339 on: August 14, 2019, 07:13:41 PM »
Some people absorb vitamins at a different rate. So some vitamins can always be needed ( e.g. D )

Villabolo

  • New ice
  • Posts: 51
    • View Profile
    • Global Warming Basics
  • Liked: 9
  • Likes Given: 22
Re: Prepping for Collapse
« Reply #340 on: August 14, 2019, 09:52:09 PM »
<snip>

I do find solace in the idea that even if the rich manage to escape to their doomsday bunkers, they have clearly forgotten the fact that their top position in the system is worthless once the bottom falls out. No doctors, no farmers, no plumbers, no engineers. The provisions they stored will only give them more time to realize how poorly they've treated the common folk.

Unfortunately, many of the elite are buying property and houses in New Zealand, apparently with the assurance that they would have access to modern infrastructure and services. Those rats will be the first to abandon ship.

DrTskoul

  • Nilas ice
  • Posts: 1451
    • View Profile
  • Liked: 209
  • Likes Given: 60
Re: Prepping for Collapse
« Reply #341 on: August 15, 2019, 02:48:15 AM »
New zealanders are rather independent and stubborn folk.... will see where elites go to when the rest figure it out...

KiwiGriff

  • Frazil ice
  • Posts: 156
    • View Profile
  • Liked: 61
  • Likes Given: 0
Re: Prepping for Collapse
« Reply #342 on: August 15, 2019, 03:33:20 AM »
We also are inclined to be horribly disrespectful of your social position.
Those who think they will come here and lord it over us will be in for a shock.
 
There was an interesting discussion here on talk back a few months back.
How will the elites who come here to bunker down keep their position if their money no longer buys loyalty? If your money is worthless along with your skills you will be prey.

TerryM

  • First-year ice
  • Posts: 5015
    • View Profile
  • Liked: 316
  • Likes Given: 5
Re: Prepping for Collapse
« Reply #343 on: August 15, 2019, 07:34:18 PM »
^^
Ramen


Years ago one of the prepper sites strongly advised everyone to stay where they were and to build deep ties to the local community.
I think that was just before I moved across the continent. ???
Terry

Rodius

  • New ice
  • Posts: 93
    • View Profile
  • Liked: 47
  • Likes Given: 4
Re: Prepping for Collapse
« Reply #344 on: August 18, 2019, 10:03:21 AM »
Those rich people who thinking hiding in New Zealand will find New Zealanders wont take kindly to them.
The people there will find them and deal with them fairly appropriately.
And there are not many places to hide in NZ either.

Ktb

  • Frazil ice
  • Posts: 138
    • View Profile
  • Liked: 47
  • Likes Given: 9
Re: Prepping for Collapse
« Reply #345 on: August 18, 2019, 02:27:27 PM »
And there are not many places to hide in NZ either.

Actually, New Zealand has the best trail hiking system I have ever encountered, with huts with beds and fireplaces, long drop toilets and more. I hiked out to a hut that nobody had been to for more than 6 years.

New Zealand has millions of places to hide out.
I have amazing news for you. Man is not alone on this planet. He is part of a community, upon which he depends absolutely.
- Ishmael

Tor Bejnar

  • Young ice
  • Posts: 2936
    • View Profile
  • Liked: 284
  • Likes Given: 160
Re: Prepping for Collapse
« Reply #346 on: August 19, 2019, 12:05:23 AM »
Yeah: watch
Arctic ice is healthy for children and other living things.

petm

  • Grease ice
  • Posts: 675
    • View Profile
  • Liked: 334
  • Likes Given: 27
Re: Prepping for Collapse
« Reply #347 on: August 19, 2019, 12:27:49 AM »
That looks awesome!  :D

Rodius

  • New ice
  • Posts: 93
    • View Profile
  • Liked: 47
  • Likes Given: 4
Re: Prepping for Collapse
« Reply #348 on: August 19, 2019, 08:30:28 AM »
And there are not many places to hide in NZ either.

Actually, New Zealand has the best trail hiking system I have ever encountered, with huts with beds and fireplaces, long drop toilets and more. I hiked out to a hut that nobody had been to for more than 6 years.

New Zealand has millions of places to hide out.

I spent a good twenty years hiking all over NZ.
And you are right, the huts and tracks are good.... but not for the rich and certainly not a place most people could survive without taking stuff with them. I could do it only because I have a truck load of experience doing it.... but not many others would. The environment alone would kill most, finding enough food would be second. Heaps of water though.

As for hiding out, NZ is small, there is nowhere to hide that you can live long term in and for the entire year.
I have bumped into too many hunters and locals to believe anyone wanting to hide in the bush in NZ will remain hidden or long.

SteveMDFP

  • Nilas ice
  • Posts: 1389
    • View Profile
  • Liked: 166
  • Likes Given: 15
Re: Prepping for Collapse
« Reply #349 on: August 31, 2019, 09:18:55 PM »
Here's a model for how a community might survive civilization collapse:
 
The Pacifist Democracy That's Survived for Nearly Two Thousand Years