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Author Topic: The Problem is Inside of Us.. The Intra-Personal Psychology of AGW.  (Read 18545 times)

Rich

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Let's begin with the assessment that there is relative consensus on ASIF that human civilization is either

a) already fucked or
b) entering the period where we are committing ourselves to major fuckage (the IPCC position).

It is also self-evident that humans are the cause and our collective inertia is propelling us over the edge. We are nearly 8 billion people and the collective inertia is the sum of the individual inertia within each one of us.

I'm going to argue point b. That AGW is not a technical problem, but a social problem. We have the tools (at this point) to extricate ourselves from the problem, but not the collective political will to choose them.

At some point, we pass thresholds where point a takes over.

Given the severity of the situation, we need to set aside the sacred cows that tell us we can't cross the boundaries into intra-personal analysis. Survival is paramount.

Rich

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Maslow presents us with a hierarchy of need.

First we take care of our survival needs and when those are secure, we look to our social needs. Community, self-esteem and finally self-actualization.

We run into problems when someone's survival needs are in conflict with someone else's self-esteem needs. I come from a bourgeois peer group that burns many tens (10's) of tons of CO2 each on their individual recreational jet travel in order to attend to their self-esteem needs. They are merely doing what is expected, valued and praised within their community.

If they stop doing what everyone else in their group is doing, they risk being ostracized and isolated. They risk losing community, a valuable survival asset

Air travel isn't the only type of unnecessary consumption that this paradigm applies to, just a prominent example.

Solving the problem means we have to figure out how to resolve the paradox of personal ego needs being met which are in conflict with the overall health of our species.   

Rich

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The survival tension across generations is growing. The older wealthier generation is less likely to be affected by AGW than the younger generation and they are more likely to be engaging in unnecessary consumption that perpetuates AGW.

In countries like America where concentrated wealth controls the Congress, media and SCOTUS, the obstacles to appealing to the wealthy are large.

In order to be effective, we have to simultaneously cultivate the political strength and engagement of the younger generation while also trying to chip away at the self-interest of the older generation.

Rich

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There is IMO, a big opportunity to chip away at the self-interest of the older generation.

An obvious reason the older generation (and all generations for that matter) is less apt to be responsive to climate concerns is because they project the consequences to be further down the road than it actually is.

If we can make the case that all those 401K's are going to shrivel in value by 2030, we get the attention of a lot of Boomers.

IMO, there is a very credible case to be made that there is going to be financial collapse coming by 2030. There is a big opportunity to educate and help move the political needle in the right direction !!!

TerryM

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The survival tension across generations is growing. The older wealthier generation is less likely to be affected by AGW than the younger generation and they are more likely to be engaging in unnecessary consumption that perpetuates AGW.

In countries like America where concentrated wealth controls the Congress, media and SCOTUS, the obstacles to appealing to the wealthy are large.

In order to be effective, we have to simultaneously cultivate the political strength and engagement of the younger generation while also trying to chip away at the self-interest of the older generation.


I see governments controlled by oligarchs as the norm in almost? all developed/developing nations. Any attempt to wrest away their power and influence will be resisted in the strongest ways imaginable.


At the same time I don't see it as a generational problem. Biden and Kerry's sons showed little alliance with their generation as they dove into the money pits that the Ukrainian coup presented.
While much of the "old money" may rest in aged hands, the trust fund inheritors are every bit as beholden to concentrated capital as their antecedents were.


If revolutions do break out I think it will be the disadvantaged that will bleed when confronted with the finest troops that the wealthy can (easily) afford. Ageism is an easy target - a visible minority of wrinkled males and plasticized females - but it ignores the real enemy who isn't concerned with age but power.


I once rebelled against the siren call to strike out at the wealthy because the wealthy I personally knew were generally kinder, more forgiving and less biased than those envious of that wealth. I've since modified my stance and now see that without overthrowing all of the present hierarchy we'll simply continue down the disastrous path that we're presently on.


If we are to have a future it will be with cooperation, not confrontation. The difficulty lies in confronting those now in power and convincing them that only cooperation can succeed. ???
Terry

Rich

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I'm getting to the point where the focus narrows to something more "local".

ASIF is a neat community with a lot of skilled and intelligent people who are clearly interested in avoiding ecological disaster. Neven is clearly an excellent and well respected leader here. I personally find it useful as a place of community where AGW, etc. is ok to discuss.

But discussion isn't the end game. I want to beat AGW and I'm trying to enlist the support of the community here in doing that. This is something of a litmus test. If I can't get a community of people who are intimately familiar with AGW to embrace the mission to stop it, what are the chances of flipping the average person on the street?

A: Not too good.

With that, I'm going to take a pause. There's a lot of layers here. I think there is a recognition on my part that ASIF is a great place to learn about and discuss the emerging crisis. The next questions pertains to whether people see ASIF as a potential hub for collaboration regarding activism.

I think there is an opportunity for ASIF to embrace a more intentional role in fighting AGW, but people need to explore their own inertia and determine what they want here.

Rich

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If we are to have a future it will be with cooperation, not confrontation. The difficulty lies in confronting those now in power and convincing them that only cooperation can succeed. ???
Terry

Hi Terry,

Thanks for your comment. I agree that success will lie in cooperation and I'm soliciting that here. The battle of AGW will be won or lost politically.

I comment on ageism to illustrate the perception that AGW consequences will more greatly impact younger generations. Opinion polls show that a strong correlation between age and opinion about agw.

It will in fact be worse for younger people, but if we can make the case that even people who are 60 y/o today are likely to get crushed, then that may be enough to tip the scales in favor of the cooperation you counsel.

kassy

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Quote
I'm trying to enlist the support of the community here in doing that.
You can stop doing that. Most here want to do that, many lurkers work in the fields contributing. Many have been in it far longer then you.

You need to enlist the people not on board which should be a full time job. Good luck!



Þetta minnismerki er til vitnis um að við vitum hvað er að gerast og hvað þarf að gera. Aðeins þú veist hvort við gerðum eitthvað.

DaveHitz

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With that, I'm going to take a pause.

Yay!! I was so excited about you taking a pause, but then—sigh—your next post was 20 minutes later. Bummer.

Rich

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Quote
I'm trying to enlist the support of the community here in doing that.
You can stop doing that. Most here want to do that, many lurkers work in the fields contributing. Many have been in it far longer then you.

You need to enlist the people not on board which should be a full time job. Good luck!

Thanks Kassy.

I know I can stop. Thank you for pointing that out.

And I'm inclined to believe you that many here are involved in various ways to combat the problem.  For those so engaged...kudos and thank you !!!!

Does that mean we shouldn't be curious about how we can do better and optimize our efforts?? I don't think so.

For example....if someone wants to post a petition for others to sign, should ASIF have a place for that? Is ASIF intentionally apolitical? I see political discussion threads here and Neven engages there. His political views are quite similar to mine.

Anyway...I'm glad you're engaging and encouraging some kind of activism. Yesterday I emptied the clip on my 60 Bay Area contacts and encouraged them to attend the Sunrise protest at the DNC in August. The youngsters are pushing for a climate debate.

Neven

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Re: The Problem is Inside of Us.. The Intra-Personal Psychology of AGW.
« Reply #10 on: July 31, 2019, 11:43:06 PM »
The wealthy are not necessarily the problem, but their wealth is.

As long as I run the ASIF, it won't be much more than it is right now, a hub for the exchange of information and knowledge, mostly pertaining to Arctic sea ice. If I want to do more community-wise, I will do it on a local scale, not on the Internet. That's what the next 5 years of my life will probably be all about.
Il faut comparer, comparer, comparer, et cultiver notre jardin

uniquorn

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Re: The Problem is Inside of Us.. The Intra-Personal Psychology of AGW.
« Reply #11 on: July 31, 2019, 11:50:13 PM »
I have no solutions for me or my neiggbours. And I am drunk with a frelon sting on top.
But I LIKE ASIF

Neven

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Re: The Problem is Inside of Us.. The Intra-Personal Psychology of AGW.
« Reply #12 on: July 31, 2019, 11:56:00 PM »
I have no solutions for me or my neiggbours. And I am drunk with a frelon sting on top.
But I LIKE ASIF

Don't say 'bye' when you're drunk. I believe I just quoted my wife.  ;)
Il faut comparer, comparer, comparer, et cultiver notre jardin

DrTskoul

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Re: The Problem is Inside of Us.. The Intra-Personal Psychology of AGW.
« Reply #13 on: July 31, 2019, 11:57:16 PM »
I have no solutions for me or my neiggbours. And I am drunk with a frelon sting on top.
But I LIKE ASIF

Sorry about the hornet sting. I would sure like a drink though. 24 hrs after hernia surgery I cannot do much but read ASIF.

Grubbegrabben

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Re: The Problem is Inside of Us.. The Intra-Personal Psychology of AGW.
« Reply #14 on: August 01, 2019, 12:00:54 AM »

I know I can stop. Thank you for pointing that out.

And I'm inclined to believe you that many here are involved in various ways to combat the problem.  For those so engaged...kudos and thank you !!!!

Does that mean we shouldn't be curious about how we can do better and optimize our efforts?? I don't think so.

For example....if someone wants to post a petition for others to sign, should ASIF have a place for that? Is ASIF intentionally apolitical? I see political discussion threads here and Neven engages there. His political views are quite similar to mine.

Anyway...I'm glad you're engaging and encouraging some kind of activism. Yesterday I emptied the clip on my 60 Bay Area contacts and encouraged them to attend the Sunrise protest at the DNC in August. The youngsters are pushing for a climate debate.

In 2017 I think there were someone posting endless "we need to call politicians, talk to journalists, engage people" bla bla bla. It is very tiresome, please, there are hundreds of organizations and groups to join that do exactly that. There is absolutely no point trying to turn ASIF into something it isn't. Please feel free to leave and pursue that goal elsewhere. Bye.

Bugalugs

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Re: The Problem is Inside of Us.. The Intra-Personal Psychology of AGW.
« Reply #15 on: August 01, 2019, 12:05:27 AM »
The problem is very simple.

We all have bills to pay. Paying bills generates CO2.

We can't all live off-grid on a fertile quarter acre.

Economics will take us out before the climate goes full retard.

Fear will kill discretionary spending. Unless you are fixing blocked toilets or painful dental cavities etc, you'll lose your job.

No money = no food.

SteveMDFP

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Re: The Problem is Inside of Us.. The Intra-Personal Psychology of AGW.
« Reply #16 on: August 01, 2019, 12:09:46 AM »

For example....if someone wants to post a petition for others to sign, should ASIF have a place for that?. . .

There's a thread for that:

What's New in Climate Change Acceptance and Action
https://forum.arctic-sea-ice.net/index.php/topic,1364.0.html

Please use it.  You'll catch a lot less grief if you limit your efforts to that thread, and cease doing so on other threads.  Everyone will be better off.

Rich

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Re: The Problem is Inside of Us.. The Intra-Personal Psychology of AGW.
« Reply #17 on: August 01, 2019, 12:12:21 AM »
The wealthy are not necessarily the problem, but their wealth is.

As long as I run the ASIF, it won't be much more than it is right now, a hub for the exchange of information and knowledge, mostly pertaining to Arctic sea ice. If I want to do more community-wise, I will do it on a local scale, not on the Internet. That's what the next 5 years of my life will probably be all about.

Thank you for weighing in Neven. It's helpful to understand your vision.

I agree that concentrated wealth is a disease that transcends wealthy individuals. It is a societal disease that we see from time to time.

Sometimes it resolved itself more elegantly as with both Roosevelt's and progressive legislation in the wake of the Gilded Age and Great Depression and sometimes violently as with the French Revolution, Civil War and the Nazi's.

In combination with the scourge of AGW, the degree of difficulty is high

Peace.

uniquorn

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Re: The Problem is Inside of Us.. The Intra-Personal Psychology of AGW.
« Reply #18 on: August 01, 2019, 12:16:11 AM »
I have no solutions for me or my neiggbours. And I am drunk with a frelon sting on top.
But I LIKE ASIF

Don't say 'bye' when you're drunk. I believe I just quoted my wife.  ;)
..

RealityCheck

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Re: The Problem is Inside of Us.. The Intra-Personal Psychology of AGW.
« Reply #19 on: August 01, 2019, 12:20:13 AM »
Quote
I'm trying to enlist the support of the community here in doing that.
You can stop doing that. Most here want to do that, many lurkers work in the fields contributing.

'Thanks Kassy....

And I'm inclined to believe you that many here are involved in various ways to combat the problem.  For those so engaged...kudos and thank you !!!!'

'Does that mean we shouldn't be curious about how we can do better and optimize our efforts?? ...'
' The youngsters are pushing for a climate debate.'

For what it's worth, I think anxiety (or worse) about climate change impact can manifest in many ways within one's inner realm. And outwardly, people can be drawn to different ways of expressing that concern. On ASIF, I have heard from folks striving for minimum carbon impact in their personal lives; those seeking to educate on latest scientific advances; those interpreting latest data to keep the present crisis at the forefront of our awareness; and those reflecting on the wider implications for society and humanity. Not to mention those trying to raise awareness of possible solutions.... as well as folks who, like me, feel a gripping fascination with the evolving epic story of global changes in the cryosphere.
For ASIF folks, and others, I think we all are mostly trying to do our best, more or less, within the limits of our own personal worlds. For myself, I am responsible for c. 45MW of wind turbine rated capacity now in existence - through considerable personal financial risk. I am grateful I perhaps have made a small difference. No matter. But every sphere has its limitations.
For a more activist connection, I suppose Extinction Rebellion might be suitable. For a philosophical basis for XR, I again direct attention to Deep Adaptation Forum. There are c. 10 subgroups one can subscribe to, depending on one's own interests. It is organised in multiple countries, and has a local-activist element that might serve some here.
Sic transit gloria mundi

uniquorn

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Re: The Problem is Inside of Us.. The Intra-Personal Psychology of AGW.
« Reply #20 on: August 01, 2019, 01:08:26 AM »
I have no solutions for me or my neiggbours. And I am drunk with a frelon sting on top.
But I LIKE ASIF

Don't say 'bye' when you're drunk. I believe I just quoted my wife.  ;)
My mistake,  Obvioulsly mevvver agaiinnn

be cause

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Re: The Problem is Inside of Us.. The Intra-Personal Psychology of AGW.
« Reply #21 on: August 01, 2019, 02:38:22 AM »
Th Answer is inside us too .. breath deeply .. b.c.
2007 + 5 = 2012 + 4 = 2016 + 3 = 2019 ...

Archimid

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Re: The Problem is Inside of Us.. The Intra-Personal Psychology of AGW.
« Reply #22 on: August 01, 2019, 03:41:29 AM »
That AGW is not a technical problem, but a social problem. We have the tools (at this point) to extricate ourselves from the problem, but not the collective political will to choose them.

What are these tools you talk about?
I am an energy reservoir seemingly intent on lowering entropy for self preservation.

philopek

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Re: The Problem is Inside of Us.. The Intra-Personal Psychology of AGW.
« Reply #23 on: August 01, 2019, 07:31:32 PM »
That AGW is not a technical problem, but a social problem. We have the tools (at this point) to extricate ourselves from the problem, but not the collective political will to choose them.

What are these tools you talk about?

Most of the tools that some "optimists" mean/mention are boomerangs.

If we stop everything warming the globe we shall cause a greater and faster catastrophe than AGW over decades and centuries will.

Worst of all is that if we use all the "tools" we shall not even benefit directly because it will take a long time to cool down again and in the mean time we could extinct ourselves through other "tools" we have at hand.

I won't take this further, just wanted to hint into the general direction. Everyone who is reasonably objective knows exactly what kind of disruptions and "tools" i mean, only that those are most certain while many things discussed nowadays are models or eventualities.